Speaker 1: The biggest lie that we've been sold in love is
Speaker 1: this idea of the spark. We interpret it as chemistry
Speaker 1: when it's actually anxiety. Only eleven percent of people experience love.
Speaker 2: At first sight, So you don't believe in the one.
Speaker 1: I don't believe in the one. We've become so obsessed
Speaker 1: with finding the perfect person instead of building the perfect relationship.
Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you
Speaker 2: come to become the happier, healthier, and more healed. This
Speaker 2: might be the most requested dating episode we've ever done
Speaker 2: because so many of you keep asking the same question,
Speaker 2: why do I keep chasing the wrong person? Why can't
Speaker 2: I find the right person? Today we're joined by best
Speaker 2: selling author and Hina's Director of Relationship Science, Logan Yuri.
Speaker 2: Logan challenges one of dating's biggest myths. What does the
Speaker 2: spark really mean? And is it actually leading you in
Speaker 2: the wrong direction? If you're tired of confusing chemistry with compatibility,
Speaker 2: I don't want you to miss this episode. Please welcome
Speaker 2: to On Purpose Logan Uri Logan, Uri, Welcome to On Purpose.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2: It's so great to have you I've been wanting to
Speaker 2: have you in this seat for so long. You've been
Speaker 2: such a requested guest for us. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for this conversation, so I.
Speaker 2: Want to dive right in. Let's do it. My first
Speaker 2: question is what is the biggest mistake that people are
Speaker 2: making and dating right now?
Speaker 1: One of the biggest mistakes I see people making is
Speaker 1: really having unrealistic expectations around relationships, around dating, around their
Speaker 1: partner and around themselves. And so through my coaching, I've
Speaker 1: categorized this into a framework that I call the three
Speaker 1: dating tendencies. And I know you took the quiz on this,
Speaker 1: so I'm excited to see your results of the quiz,
Speaker 1: but just to walk you through it. So, the first
Speaker 1: hype is the romanticizer. And the romanticizer I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people out there will relate to this. They
Speaker 1: are worried about finding their soulmate and they believe there's
Speaker 1: one person out there for everyone and I'll know it
Speaker 1: when I see it. And so this person is very
Speaker 1: very focused on the we met and their partner looking
Speaker 1: the way they expect. And the second type is the maximizer,
Speaker 1: and the maximizer has unrealistic expectations of their partner, and
Speaker 1: so you know you're a maximizer if you say things
Speaker 1: like I just want to keep searching, or I found
Speaker 1: someone great, but I want to find someone even better.
Speaker 1: And this is the person who's never satisfied. They always
Speaker 1: wonder what else is out there, the sort of the
Speaker 1: grass is greener person. And the third type is the hesitator,
Speaker 1: and the hesitator has unrealistic expectations of themselves. And so
Speaker 1: the hesitator says things like I'll be ready to date
Speaker 1: when when I lose five pounds, when I get a
Speaker 1: better job, when I finally clean up my apartment, and
Speaker 1: so there's a sense within them that they're not datable
Speaker 1: and that they need to become a different person before
Speaker 1: they're going to put themselves out there because no one
Speaker 1: would fall for them with who they are right now.
Speaker 2: So you don't believe in the one.
Speaker 1: I don't believe than the one.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many great people who you
Speaker 1: could make a life with, and that it's really interesting
Speaker 1: because I think, especially for the maximizer type, there's almost
Speaker 1: this premise of it's ninety five percent who you choose
Speaker 1: and five percent the effort you put in. And I
Speaker 1: don't have exact numbers on this, but my framework would
Speaker 1: be more like, it's twenty five percent who you choose
Speaker 1: and seventy five percent the effort you put in. And instead,
Speaker 1: in our society we've come so obsessed with like finding
Speaker 1: the perfect person instead of building the perfect relationship.
Speaker 2: I actually love that approach, and I find that so
Speaker 2: fascinating because we play so much emphasis not even on
Speaker 2: choosing the right person, but finding the right person believing
Speaker 2: that they exist, rather than thinking, Okay, I've got to
Speaker 2: choose someone who hopefully I'll have a better chance with
Speaker 2: because they're choosing me too, and we're going to work
Speaker 2: on it together. And that work part being your emphasis
Speaker 2: feels like the right place to place the priority with
Speaker 2: your three. I love the romanticizer, the hesitator, and the maximize. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: are we trying to just improve? I saw your email
Speaker 2: that came through with my assessment, which I thought was great,
Speaker 2: and he gave me really actionable tips to say, here
Speaker 2: is how to stop being X. He is how to
Speaker 2: improve this area of your life. What are we trying
Speaker 2: to get to because we're ultimately one of these three?
Speaker 2: What are we trying to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great, great question. So the point of
Speaker 1: the three dating tendencies is to understand that you probably
Speaker 1: have dating blind spots. So these are patterns of behavior
Speaker 1: or ways of thinking that are holding you back from
Speaker 1: finding love but that you can't identify on your own
Speaker 1: and in my coaching, and I'm sure you've felt this too,
Speaker 1: people often come in and they're like, my biggest issue
Speaker 1: is what I look like, or my biggest issue is
Speaker 1: that I work too much, And almost one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of the time that's not what their biggest issue is.
Speaker 1: Because if they knew what their biggest issue was, they
Speaker 1: could fix it. But a lot of times it's something
Speaker 1: else that they don't realize. And so the point of
Speaker 1: knowing your dating tendency is to say something like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm a maximizer, I'm always looking for the next best.
Speaker 1: I'm actually going to switch and become what I call
Speaker 1: a satisfy sir, which I can get into and really
Speaker 1: understand that if I want to move to the next level,
Speaker 1: if I want to go from the guy who dates
Speaker 1: someone for three months and then always tries to trade up,
Speaker 1: but I really want to get married and have kids.
Speaker 1: I have to overcome this tendency in order to move
Speaker 1: to the next stage, or else I'll keep repeating this
Speaker 1: for years to come.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fascinating that we're not aware of the thing
Speaker 2: that's blocking us. And usually it's some distraction that we've
Speaker 2: imagined up and said, oh, it's because I'm never available.
Speaker 2: And what you're saying is this actually helps us get
Speaker 2: to the root of where it comes from and why
Speaker 2: it exists in the first place. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so my background is in behavioral science, which is
Speaker 1: the study of how people make decisions. And this is
Speaker 1: just what fascinates me about the world is so often
Speaker 1: we're not making decisions in a conscious way. We are
Speaker 1: really following these invisible scripts. And so the point of
Speaker 1: my work and of the three dating tendencies is to say,
Speaker 1: let's make the invisible visible and then we can identify
Speaker 1: the problem, make a plan, and then you can show
Speaker 1: up differently and get different results.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I'll share my results in a second. I
Speaker 2: want to ask you a couple more things about that
Speaker 2: before we get there, because your works in data. I
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you what data point have you come across.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's so much great research now about
Speaker 2: love and dating and matching. It's better than it's ever
Speaker 2: been before. We have more access. I want to share
Speaker 2: a few stats with you in a second. But what
Speaker 2: would you say has been the thing that has shocked
Speaker 2: you the most? The data point that you swa on
Speaker 2: you went, I cannot believe that's true.
Speaker 1: One data point that shocked me recently and actually made
Speaker 1: me happy is I saw through some research that we
Speaker 1: did at HINGE that, well, I'll start by saying, I
Speaker 1: think people think that gen Z's really nihilistic, they love
Speaker 1: dark humor, they're really pragmatic, and so I would have
Speaker 1: guessed that gen Z was not romantic at all, that
Speaker 1: they would just be like, okay, like nothing else in
Speaker 1: the world is working out. I was born into this
Speaker 1: really tough moment in history, and I would think that
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be romantic. But what we saw in our
Speaker 1: data at HINGE is that is actually thirty percent more
Speaker 1: likely than millennials to believe in the idea of a soulmate,
Speaker 1: and they're thirty nine percent more likely than millennials to
Speaker 1: identify as someone who's romantic or idealistic about romance. And
Speaker 1: so I think that we should not cut this generation
Speaker 1: short and think, oh, they're not interested in romance. They
Speaker 1: really are. They really are yearning for romance, even to
Speaker 1: the point of, you know, believing in a soulmate. W
Speaker 1: I said, I don't, but there's so much holding them back.
Speaker 1: And I know we'll get into it in this conversation,
Speaker 1: but really, this fear of rejection and fear of embarrassment,
Speaker 1: fear of cringe, and so this data point of gen
Speaker 1: Z actually being quite romantic has really stuck out to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting that, like you said, even though
Speaker 2: you don't believe in a soulmate, the fact that this
Speaker 2: whole generation does, or a lot of the generation does.
Speaker 2: It elds points to a belief in love and a
Speaker 2: value in love, and we just need to figure out
Speaker 2: what that is. I wanted to ask you about a
Speaker 2: couple of statistics that I pulled out. Great let's do
Speaker 2: in my mind that I think these speak to what
Speaker 2: we're struggling with in the dating landscape right now, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to share some, so we'll go through one
Speaker 2: at a time, and I'd love to get your reaction
Speaker 2: to it. This stat says fifty three percent of singles
Speaker 2: reported dating burnout, And I think dating burnout is what
Speaker 2: we're seeing all across the board. When you see that,
Speaker 2: talk to me about the behavioral science. Talk to me
Speaker 2: about the reasoning why we're experiencing dating burnout? What is it?
Speaker 2: Because we're all thinking it might be the apps, it
Speaker 2: that there's no good people out there left anymore, or
Speaker 2: the great people are taken. What is actually happening? What
Speaker 2: are you seeing?
Speaker 1: When I hear that, I feel so sad, Like they
Speaker 1: can't remember the last time they went out on a date.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're just sort of missing the plot here.
Speaker 1: It's like part of being young is dating and meeting
Speaker 1: new people and figuring out who you are. And it's
Speaker 1: almost like dating has become a job, and then people
Speaker 1: feel like they need to take a break from it,
Speaker 1: and so at HINGE. One of the biggest data points
Speaker 1: that we've seen around burnout is that something that causes
Speaker 1: it is lack of responsiveness. So I send you a message,
Speaker 1: we're going back and forth, and then you just stop response,
Speaker 1: and then it makes me feel like, what did I
Speaker 1: do wrong? Why are you rejecting me? Why doesn't anyone
Speaker 1: want to be with me? And I sort of spiral
Speaker 1: and after a while you just need to take a
Speaker 1: break from that feeling. And so part of it is
Speaker 1: just I think in dating culture right now, we're really
Speaker 1: taking each other for granted, and there's a sense of
Speaker 1: like if I disappoint you, well, there's someone else waiting
Speaker 1: for me. And also there's no context, like if your
Speaker 1: sister in law introduced us, then you would know that
Speaker 1: if you did something not so nice to me, someone
Speaker 1: would be hearing about it. But I think we are
Speaker 1: lacking some of that context right now, and we're just
Speaker 1: not treating each other with as much with as much
Speaker 1: integrity as we should be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the accountability piece is huge. What you're
Speaker 2: just saying right now that if we introduced to a
Speaker 2: friend or a family member, you're going to have someone
Speaker 2: to answer to us to why it didn't work out.
Speaker 2: But the challenge about that is, as you said, is
Speaker 2: you can't control that, like you can't control someone being responsive,
Speaker 2: and so it becomes harder and harder to put yourself
Speaker 2: out there and feel like, oh, I I thought someone
Speaker 2: told me last week, Oh I'd scheduled a date. We've
Speaker 2: been talking for three days straight and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, even though we set a date in place
Speaker 2: in time when I text to confirm the person who's
Speaker 2: ghosted me, and it's like, I have no idea what
Speaker 2: went wrong, and so there's a sense of wanting everyone
Speaker 2: to be more confident, but there's also a sense of
Speaker 2: like how much can we take?
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And it's interesting because I'm married, you're married.
Speaker 1: I've been with my husband for a long time. We
Speaker 1: in a way are a bit removed from rejection. But
Speaker 1: I have a two year old and I was talking
Speaker 1: to different families about who we would do a nanny
Speaker 1: share with, and this woman basically wrote me like a
Speaker 1: breakup text, essentially being like, we don't want to move
Speaker 1: forward doing a nanny share with you. And I was hysterical.
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds crazy, but it was like
Speaker 1: the first time that I'd really felt that rejection in
Speaker 1: a while, of someone like meeting you, getting to know you,
Speaker 1: and saying no, I don't want to quote unquote be
Speaker 1: with you. And I think sometimes married people forget how
Speaker 1: painful that rejection is, and so I just want to
Speaker 1: validate that feeling where yeah, dating really is hard. You're
Speaker 1: putting yourself out there and you're saying this is who
Speaker 1: I am, and then someone says yes or no, I
Speaker 1: want to be with you.
Speaker 2: Looking for love is almost like it's a bit harder
Speaker 2: than that because it involves two people and you feeling
Speaker 2: like I have to convince this other person that I'm worthy.
Speaker 1: I work with men and women, but a lot of
Speaker 1: the women are in there, let's say mid thirties to
Speaker 1: mid forties, and they're kind of wondering like did I
Speaker 1: miss the boat? And there's a sense of if I
Speaker 1: wanted to run a marathon, I know how to train
Speaker 1: for it. If I wanted to get a promotion, I
Speaker 1: could just put a lot of effort in, and that
Speaker 1: dating is this uniquely hard thing because you can't just
Speaker 1: put effort in and get results. Someone else has to
Speaker 1: choose you as well. I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons it's uniquely challenging is because it's outside of your
Speaker 1: individual effort and control.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly, And that's sort of thinging that work
Speaker 2: wise as well. There is a sense of I can
Speaker 2: put in more effort and I can not control the outcome,
Speaker 2: but I can impact it, hopefully a bit more closely.
Speaker 1: And my husband and I talk about this all the time,
Speaker 1: because work is very seductive. If I have more input,
Speaker 1: then I'll get more output, and you sort of know
Speaker 1: what the path is and you can kind of say, like, well,
Speaker 1: if I crush work, then I'll get some promotion, then
Speaker 1: I'll make more money. Like dating just isn't the same thing.
Speaker 1: There's not like a guarantee reward if you put effort in.
Speaker 1: And so I do often say to people that I
Speaker 1: work with, like, don't fall for the seductiveness of work,
Speaker 1: because yes, it's easily measurable and it can make you
Speaker 1: feel good when you get those promotions or that affirmation,
Speaker 1: but also remember that you should put effort into love too.
Speaker 1: I don't really think it works when you're just like okay,
Speaker 1: Like I'm just going to spend my twenties on work
Speaker 1: and then in my thirties I'll start dating, because you'll
Speaker 1: probably be behind. You haven't developed the skills that you
Speaker 1: need to really be a great dat So.
Speaker 2: If efforts the catalyst in work, what's the catalyst in love.
Speaker 1: I do think you need a lot of effort in love.
Speaker 1: It's just that it's not as guaranteed, like I think
Speaker 1: in hustle culture, all of this work environment that you've
Speaker 1: been seeing, let's for the last ten years, like productivity
Speaker 1: and workmaxing and this and that. I think people just
Speaker 1: fall into it because it feels like you know what
Speaker 1: the result will be. So it's more that it's less
Speaker 1: about work as effort and love isn't and it's more
Speaker 1: that work feels like some guaranteed results. And I remember
Speaker 1: about a year ago, I was working on a project
Speaker 1: and I was talking to single daters in their mid twenties.
Speaker 1: I talked to this guy, like super handsome, fun guy,
Speaker 1: like definitely the type of person I would have been
Speaker 1: drawn to when I was in my twenties. And he
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, why would I go on a date
Speaker 1: that could potentially go nowhere when I could just be
Speaker 1: at home and edit a YouTube video? And I was
Speaker 1: like what, Like it blew my mind, Like I was
Speaker 1: just I just didn't understand. And he was like, well,
Speaker 1: if I edit the YouTube video, like I know, I'll
Speaker 1: get this many views and I'll improve in this way,
Speaker 1: whereas the date has no guarantee. I think that's sort
Speaker 1: of one of the things that I'm seeing right now
Speaker 1: is that people are struggling with dating because it is
Speaker 1: a lot of unknown whereas work seems like more of
Speaker 1: an known quantity.
Speaker 2: I completely agree with you. How do we then train
Speaker 2: the human mind to be okay with investing in an
Speaker 2: area that has very little chance of return, but if
Speaker 2: you found the return, it's like striking gold and life changing.
Speaker 2: How do you discipline yourself to put an effort in
Speaker 2: an area which, as you're saying, is uncertain. I'm glad we're.
Speaker 1: Talking about this because this is definitely the thing that
Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with lately. So from a coaching perspective,
Speaker 1: step one is just to be really, really clear on
Speaker 1: your goal. And that's why I was so happy to
Speaker 1: see that, despite what I might have thought, gen Z
Speaker 1: really is romantic and excited about finding someone. And so
Speaker 1: I think you have to be clear on your goal
Speaker 1: in order to overcome a bunch of hurdles and discomfort
Speaker 1: to get there. And the second thing is what we're
Speaker 1: calling chalant dating. So everyone knows what nonchalant means. It
Speaker 1: means you act attached, you pretend that you don't care,
Speaker 1: and it's really this battle of who can care less.
Speaker 2: And I feel like.
Speaker 1: Dating has been in this area for a while now.
Speaker 1: Let's say like at least a decade and I just
Speaker 1: hear this all the time. Oh, he waited five hours
Speaker 1: to text me back, so I'm going to wait six hours.
Speaker 1: And when I dug into why this is happening, I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of it is because of this
Speaker 1: surveillance culture that we have now, where it used to
Speaker 1: be that if you sent someone a text message and
Speaker 1: it was a little embarrassing or you know, didn't quite
Speaker 1: hit the mark, like it disappeared, But now it gets
Speaker 1: screenshotted and sent to the group chat, or worse, it
Speaker 1: makes it onto Instagram or TikTok or someone's doing a
Speaker 1: story time about it. And so I feel like we
Speaker 1: just live in a society where it's a lot harder
Speaker 1: to fail because if you fail, it feels like it's
Speaker 1: forever and it's shared with the world. And so what
Speaker 1: I'm seeing is that a generation that is afraid to
Speaker 1: embarrass themselves. For them it's like, the worst thing you
Speaker 1: can be is sincere. The worst thing you can do
Speaker 1: is be cringe. And the truth is that most things
Speaker 1: in life worth having you have to take a risk for.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you don't have this job because you
Speaker 1: just sat back and said, Okay, well, if a recruiter
Speaker 1: reaches out to me, I'll take that job. It's like
Speaker 1: you literally created your dream job and your dream life
Speaker 1: by taking risks. And I have found with gen Z
Speaker 1: that they's just such a fear of taking risks. And
Speaker 1: we're finding this in the Hinge data as well. And
Speaker 1: so gen Z is much less likely than millennials to
Speaker 1: be willing to have a deep conversation on the first date.
Speaker 1: They are much more likely to say that they have
Speaker 1: a fear of being too much. And so you have
Speaker 1: this generation that's afraid of rejection, afraid of trying, afraid
Speaker 1: of effort. And then miraculously, this term came around chalant dating,
Speaker 1: where people are like, you know what, I'm tired of that,
Speaker 1: I'm tired of playing games, I'm tired of the battle
Speaker 1: who can care less? And now we're really seeing that
Speaker 1: term has skyrocketed. So we've seen a two hundred and
Speaker 1: seventeen percent increase in that term in the last year.
Speaker 1: And on TikTok you'll see all these video like I
Speaker 1: want a chalant guy. I want someone to chalant me down.
Speaker 1: And so chalant dating is a combination of effort and vulnerability.
Speaker 1: It's saying I care. I'm going to show you that
Speaker 1: I care, and I'm willing to be vulnerable even at
Speaker 1: the risk of rejection.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And what's fascinating though, is we always get into
Speaker 2: that trend of I want someone to be this way,
Speaker 2: and it comes back to the same thing of like, well,
Speaker 2: we're going to have to be this way too, because
Speaker 2: there's only so much I love that term because again,
Speaker 2: it's like it goes back to what you said earlier,
Speaker 2: which is the goal. If your goal is I want
Speaker 2: to find love and I want to commit to someone
Speaker 2: and being in a monogamous relationship long term, you're going
Speaker 2: to have to be chalant because guess what, even when
Speaker 2: you've been with someone for ten years, you still have
Speaker 2: to be schalant definitely. So the chalant never changes, it's
Speaker 2: always there. It's always care if and vulnerability. And then
Speaker 2: it goes back to well, if you don't know what
Speaker 2: your goal is, then of course you care more about
Speaker 2: what everyone else thinks or being cringe or being left
Speaker 2: on red or whatever it may be. And so it's
Speaker 2: that goal piece I think is so important.
Speaker 1: Have you seen heated rivalry or you have not saying
Speaker 1: that no, no, no, I know I've heard about it from
Speaker 1: a million people. What I've not I really liked it.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's overrated. But it's been amazing to
Speaker 1: see the reaction to that show. And I think one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why is that it's a lot of
Speaker 1: chalant dating. And really the show has this pivotal point
Speaker 1: where one of the characters, Shane, who's been holding back
Speaker 1: his feelings, becomes more schalant and he says this famous line,
Speaker 1: you know, come to the cottage. I want you to
Speaker 1: come to my cottage, And that's really about him showing
Speaker 1: effort and being vulnerable, and that changes everything. And people
Speaker 1: have really been drawn to the show because it's about
Speaker 1: loving out loud and yearning for someone, and I think
Speaker 1: people are missing that, and we just have this entire
Speaker 1: generation and maybe even you know, more than just gen Z.
Speaker 1: That's sort of like sitting at home, hiding behind a screen,
Speaker 1: yearning for someone to yearn for them, but being so
Speaker 1: afraid of showing effort. I just think it's a shame.
Speaker 1: It's like, when did effort be cringe? When did trying
Speaker 1: for something become embarrassing? I think if you look at
Speaker 1: the psychology behind it, it really has to do with
Speaker 1: fear of rejection. And we found at Hinge that ninety
Speaker 1: five percent of data say that they have this fear
Speaker 1: of rejection. But if you just have people sitting at
Speaker 1: home not willing to try, then they're never going to
Speaker 1: get this thing that they clearly want, which is finding
Speaker 1: a great partner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think documented rejection is a painful point.
Speaker 2: It's what you said about the surveillance. So if someone's
Speaker 2: not replying back and then it goes to the group chat,
Speaker 2: or you send a text where you were really vulnerable
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden that text ends up in
Speaker 2: another group chat, and that's concerning because you don't want
Speaker 2: to be exposed for being vulnerable. And I think that
Speaker 2: comes back to what you're saying. There's another statistic here
Speaker 2: that hits on that exactly forty percent of men eighteen
Speaker 2: to twenty five have never approached a woman in person.
Speaker 2: It sounds like that's happening because of a fear of rejection.
Speaker 2: It sounds like that's happening because if I don't even
Speaker 2: know what to say, I don't even know how to start.
Speaker 2: It sounds like that's happening because we don't really do
Speaker 2: that anymore. So when me and you were dating at
Speaker 2: that age, That's all I ever did. All I ever
Speaker 2: had to do was pluck up the courage to go
Speaker 2: over to a girl in a bar or a restaurant
Speaker 2: or in the mall and say, hey, can I get
Speaker 2: your number? And I remember how stressful that was, Like,
Speaker 2: it was stressful even back then, but that was the move.
Speaker 2: And sometimes you get rejected, sometimes it would work. And
Speaker 2: so how do we even encourage when we're saying people
Speaker 2: are losing basic connection skills, conversation skills. People are worried
Speaker 2: if I go up to someone, will I look like
Speaker 2: a creep? People are worried I get rejected in public?
Speaker 2: How terrible will it look? Everyone has their phones out? Now?
Speaker 2: How do we even begin to think about giving people
Speaker 2: these skills?
Speaker 1: Everything you're saying I agree with where people listening to
Speaker 1: this who may have been married for a while, are
Speaker 1: there any old gen X and older They might be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: people have always been afraid of rejection. I think what
Speaker 1: we're really calling out here is that this is a
Speaker 1: new and distinct thing. We're gen Z by nature of
Speaker 1: the surveillance culture. And also, I do think the pandemic
Speaker 1: you know, people don't want to bring up the pandemic anymore,
Speaker 1: but it's like, if you came of age during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: it did impact your social skills. And a lot of
Speaker 1: the gen Z daters that I talk to say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm much more comfortable communicating through a screen or I
Speaker 1: want to be able to check it with chat YOUBT first,
Speaker 1: And it's like, sure, you can use those as strategies
Speaker 1: to get to the date, but once you're on the date,
Speaker 1: it's still like the analog version of like two people talking.
Speaker 1: You have to be able to make conversation in terms
Speaker 1: of people approaching each other in public. I think the
Speaker 1: answer there is really just to work on experiencing discomfort
Speaker 1: and working through it and being able to see that
Speaker 1: rejection can actually be redirection. So when you hear a
Speaker 1: bunch of nos, those are nos that you're hearing on
Speaker 1: the way to a different yes. And so you have
Speaker 1: to get a bunch of nos to figure out what's
Speaker 1: right for you. And I think that if you're so
Speaker 1: fearful of a no, you never try and you never
Speaker 1: get to that yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, there's another one that reminds me of you
Speaker 2: hesitate it. So this stab, this is why I put
Speaker 2: it in there. So sixty nine percent of gen Z
Speaker 2: respondents say they're not ready for a relationship, even though
Speaker 2: they may want one. Why do you think that.
Speaker 1: Is that absolutely sounds like hesitators, And maybe we're talking
Speaker 1: about a generation of hesitators. And so when you dig
Speaker 1: into the psychology of a hesitator, a lot of it
Speaker 1: is around I'm not enough, I'm not where I need
Speaker 1: to be yet. And so I'll talk to let's say
Speaker 1: a male dater in his twenties in New York, and
Speaker 1: he'll say, I can't date until I make six figures.
Speaker 1: And I find this is especially true with men, where
Speaker 1: there's this sense of women need me to be a provider,
Speaker 1: and for a number of sociological cultural reasons, they don't
Speaker 1: feel like they're able to be that yet, so they
Speaker 1: don't even put themselves out there. But then, on the
Speaker 1: other hand, we have the research and the insights into
Speaker 1: what women want, and so only six percent of female
Speaker 1: daters say they want a man who's the solo provider,
Speaker 1: and seventy two percent of women on HINGE they'd much
Speaker 1: rather have someone who puts in effort than someone who
Speaker 1: makes more money, and so you have men saying I'm
Speaker 1: not eligible, I can't be the provider that I was
Speaker 1: told I need to be, and women saying, actually, things
Speaker 1: have changed. I am more of a provider than my
Speaker 1: mother's generation or my grandmother's generation. And so what I
Speaker 1: want is emotional intelligence, emotional availability effort. And so you
Speaker 1: have two people who misunderstand what the other person wants,
Speaker 1: and then they're not putting themselves out there.
Speaker 2: That I mean that speaks to the root of so
Speaker 2: many challenges. When I speak and we're talking about heterosexual relationships,
Speaker 2: when I speak to women who say to me like, well,
Speaker 2: I just can't find the right guy. There's no good
Speaker 2: guys out there. And then when I speak to guys,
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I can't get a match on an app.
Speaker 2: And so then you go, wait a minute, what's going
Speaker 2: on here and where are we? So what are the
Speaker 2: other things that you're seeing that are almost causing this
Speaker 2: tension between men and women? So one of them being men,
Speaker 2: think they need to be earning six figures, women are saying, hey,
Speaker 2: we're happy to contribute. The other at tension points that
Speaker 2: you're seeing that you think of misleading us from the
Speaker 2: actual point of what we're looking for.
Speaker 1: Yes, And so just to emphasize that effort point and
Speaker 1: chalant dating even more, I hear from women where they're like,
Speaker 1: this guy, he doesn't need to fly me to the moon.
Speaker 1: I just want simple things. I want him to remember
Speaker 1: the name of my best friend from work. I want
Speaker 1: him to know that I have a big meeting and
Speaker 1: send me a text wishing me good luck or following
Speaker 1: up afterwards. And so women are saying like, I want
Speaker 1: effort and I want care and that's more important to
Speaker 1: me than money, and the men are just like, well,
Speaker 1: I was raised to, you know, be a lion, and
Speaker 1: the lion has to provide. And women are like, wait, no,
Speaker 1: I want a tiger who's emotional, and he's like but
Speaker 1: but I wasn't raised for that. And so I do
Speaker 1: feel like the dating hasn't caught up with the data.
Speaker 1: The dating of how we interact and how in heterosexual
Speaker 1: relationships people perceive each other hasn't caught up with the
Speaker 1: fact that we do live in a different society where
Speaker 1: women are earning more money and you know, soon two
Speaker 1: thirds of college graduates will be women, and so there's
Speaker 1: really a disconnect there.
Speaker 2: There's a few things you said there that really caught
Speaker 2: my attention, and they're two very different things. The first
Speaker 2: one is this idea of men were not raised yeah,
Speaker 2: to be that vulnerable tiger, as you put it, and
Speaker 2: I do see that as being a real, real challenge
Speaker 2: for men, where the men that do feel they're vulnerable
Speaker 2: feel that they're not strong enough for women, and the
Speaker 2: men that feel like they're trying to become financially successful
Speaker 2: may not feel emotionally available or women may not feel
Speaker 2: their emotionally available, and then you're stuck in this catch
Speaker 2: twenty two. How does a group of men go on
Speaker 2: to you know, it's almost like a big challenge to say,
Speaker 2: how do we get society, how do we get men
Speaker 2: in society to actually develop some of those emotional intelligence skills.
Speaker 1: I just want to acknowledge that it's really complicated and
Speaker 1: that I hear it from both sides. So there's this
Speaker 1: quote that I love from Brene Brown where she says
Speaker 1: women beg men to be vulnerable, and they really want
Speaker 1: them to open up, but the second that they do,
Speaker 1: women can't stand it. And so it's like we tell
Speaker 1: men that we want them to be vulnerable, but actually,
Speaker 1: in many ways we want them to follow these scripts
Speaker 1: of masculinity. And so I think as a society, we're
Speaker 1: still sort of figuring it out. Like there used to
Speaker 1: be more traditional gender roles, and I'm glad that we've
Speaker 1: developed past that. I'm glad that I can make an income,
Speaker 1: and like, I love my life and I love my career.
Speaker 1: But I also understand why people are confused, because when
Speaker 1: there's more ambiguity and more blurred lines, then people are
Speaker 1: figuring out their roles. And I think what you said
Speaker 1: is exactly what I'm seeing as well. You have men
Speaker 1: who aren't sure how vulnerable women actually want them to be,
Speaker 1: and then you also have women that are successful in
Speaker 1: making money, and then they fear that men are going
Speaker 1: to find them intimidating or they don't just not yeah,
Speaker 1: And so I feel like we're just kind of in
Speaker 1: that messy middle where like there was the way things
Speaker 1: were for a long time, and like for most of history,
Speaker 1: like men have had all the economic power, all the
Speaker 1: earning power, and then for a bunch of things that
Speaker 1: have changed, let's say in the last fifty years, with
Speaker 1: feminism and other things that have progressed, you now have
Speaker 1: brand new rules, and I think people just haven't figured
Speaker 1: it out. But what makes me sad about it is
Speaker 1: it just leads to a lot of misconnections.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the picture you just painted feels very true to me.
Speaker 2: That we had these very clear structures that I don't
Speaker 2: think we're healthy or good in any way, but they
Speaker 2: were clear. And what's happened now is we moved into
Speaker 2: the age of nuance, and because our brains are not
Speaker 2: designed to deal with nuance as well, we kind of
Speaker 2: don't know how to navigate those things. And I would
Speaker 2: honestly say, and maybe you'd say the same about you
Speaker 2: and your partner. I would say that my wife and
Speaker 2: I kind of toggle a lot of nuance for our
Speaker 2: relationship to work. We don't really have clear We have
Speaker 2: some very clear roles in some very not clear roles.
Speaker 2: We have some parts of our relationship that are totally
Speaker 2: different to what we both imagined our life would be.
Speaker 2: We live across cities, we travel a lot, we spend
Speaker 2: a lot of time together and don't see each other
Speaker 2: for time, So there's so many nuances that we can't
Speaker 2: stay tied to our gender roles to make the relationship
Speaker 2: successful because that would just make us weaker and it's
Speaker 2: almost like we've got to rise above those, but the
Speaker 2: new rules haven't been set yet and we don't know
Speaker 2: what they are.
Speaker 1: I definitely agree, and I would say I have the
Speaker 1: same thing in my marriage. So I do one hundred
Speaker 1: percent of the laundry. My husband does one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of the garbage. That's because I like doing laundry, doesn't
Speaker 1: bother me, and he doesn't want to do it. But
Speaker 1: in other ways we kind of mix those gender roles up,
Speaker 1: so like he's one hundred percent in charge of like
Speaker 1: our food, our groceries, feeding our daughter. Like people ask
Speaker 1: me what she eats, I'm like, I don't know, that's
Speaker 1: his department. And so I agree that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of nuance. I think that just pulling back and kind
Speaker 1: of zooming out. People are struggling right now because there
Speaker 1: are way fewer rules. Like if you went two hundred
Speaker 1: years ago, what were my ancestors doing. Well, I'm Jewish,
Speaker 1: so they would have known what to wear, they would
Speaker 1: have spent their days praying or studying the Torah, or
Speaker 1: knowing exactly what they could and couldn't eat. A matchmaker
Speaker 1: would figure out who to marry. There were just so
Speaker 1: many more rules that told you who you were, and
Speaker 1: now we've broken open a lot of those rules, and
Speaker 1: I think people are really struggling with knowing what to do,
Speaker 1: and in some ways they're craving rules. And so I
Speaker 1: don't think that where society should go, or certainly where
Speaker 1: I want it to go, is going back to traditional
Speaker 1: gender rules, honest saying yeah, and I don't want that
Speaker 1: at all, But I'm just acknowledging that I think without rules,
Speaker 1: people are struggling. And you can even see this in
Speaker 1: the rise of certain aspects of the manisphere, or you know,
Speaker 1: Catholicism is having a moment where I think people really
Speaker 1: feel like I just want someone to tell me what
Speaker 1: to do, because when it's up to me, I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm necessarily making great decisions.
Speaker 2: And that's hard because I think we all know so
Speaker 2: enough people who followed the perfect trajectory their life would
Speaker 2: have should have gone in and not been happy when
Speaker 2: it was decided by others. And almost agency and awareness
Speaker 2: are just such superpowers and privileges that we all get
Speaker 2: to decide who you spend your life with and what
Speaker 2: city you live in and what you do for work
Speaker 2: that I almost want to you know, help people feel empowered.
Speaker 2: That those are beautiful things to decide, and you don't
Speaker 2: want to outsource them. So let's go through my results
Speaker 2: and then you can tell me how they can improve
Speaker 2: and what to do with them. So just a caveat again.
Speaker 2: I answered this as who I was when I was dating,
Speaker 2: and I answered this as friends of mine who are
Speaker 2: dating right now, because that was my best way of
Speaker 2: doing it. So it says thanks for taking my three
Speaker 2: dating tendencies quiz, which everyone can take as well. We'll
Speaker 2: put the link in the on the screen right now,
Speaker 2: and in the comments, you scored equally high on the
Speaker 2: hesitator and the maximize tendencies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is interesting. So sometimes people get both,
Speaker 1: but if you have the hesitant tendency, that usually overrides
Speaker 1: it because it means that for these other reasons, you're
Speaker 1: not dating at all. And so I imagine that maybe the
Speaker 1: maximizers who you were when you were dating, and maybe
Speaker 1: the hesitator is your friends who aren't dating right now.
Speaker 2: That sounds very accurate. Yeah, if anything had a bit
Speaker 2: of the romanticizer in me.
Speaker 1: Too, I could also see that I wasn't.
Speaker 2: So I'm like fully an idealistic, romantic kind of person.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, just like Messy, you love eight
Speaker 1: reels of what you have, this is your favorite realm.
Speaker 1: So I'll just talk through each one and kind of
Speaker 1: how to overcome it. So we talked about the romanticizer,
Speaker 1: and so for them, they really believe that there's one
Speaker 1: person out there for them. There's research from a psychologist
Speaker 1: named Renee Franniak who breaks us into a framework called
Speaker 1: the work it out mindset versus the soulmate mindset. So
Speaker 1: people with the soulmate mindset believe if you find the
Speaker 1: right person, everything will be easy. And people with the
Speaker 1: work it out mindset know that when you're in a relationship,
Speaker 1: you have to put an effort to make it work.
Speaker 1: And so what we find is that people with this
Speaker 1: soulmate mindset, it's actually easy for them to get into
Speaker 1: relationships because they believe in love and they fall hard.
Speaker 1: But the moment that something tough happens, they think, can't
Speaker 1: be my soulmate. If it were my soulmate, it would
Speaker 1: be effortless, and so they give up too easily. And
Speaker 1: so my homework for the romanticizers out there is to
Speaker 1: shift from the soulmate mindset, to the work it out mindset,
Speaker 1: and to understand that if you're putting in effort, then
Speaker 1: you're doing it right not wrong.
Speaker 2: I love that so well put.
Speaker 1: So then the next one is the maximizer, which is
Speaker 1: I was definitely a maximizer because I live in the
Speaker 1: Bay Area Silicon Valley. A lot of people I work
Speaker 1: with our maximizers, and I think our culture breeds maximizers
Speaker 1: because before I buy anything, I mean, it's so pathetic.
Speaker 1: I'm looking it up on Google. I'm checking wirecutter, what's
Speaker 1: the best vacuum, what's the best bluetooth headphones. It's almost
Speaker 1: like I've lost the confidence in like buying something. I
Speaker 1: need to know like every single detail. And like we
Speaker 1: do this when we travel and if we're eating something.
Speaker 1: And so there's a tendency in our culture to do
Speaker 1: what's called relation shopping, like to shop for someone as
Speaker 1: if it's a product, and then say, well, I want
Speaker 1: the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl,
Speaker 1: the family background of this girl, and then to think,
Speaker 1: if we just keep searching, we'll find the perfect person.
Speaker 1: And what happens is people just wait too long and
Speaker 1: then they realize I have I have fewer opportunities now,
Speaker 1: or the girl that I rejected ten years ago the
Speaker 1: guy said no to five years ago, like they've gone
Speaker 1: and found someone great and now I'm alone. And so
Speaker 1: for the maximizer, the solution is really to switch from
Speaker 1: maximizing to something called satisficing. So satisficing is a term
Speaker 1: from the Nobel Prize winner Herbert Simon, and it's a
Speaker 1: portmanteau of the words satisfy and suffice. So this is
Speaker 1: how satisficing works. It's not about settling. Settling is such
Speaker 1: a curse word in my world. I'm sure for you too,
Speaker 1: Like no one wants to be told to settle. It's
Speaker 1: the s word. But instead, satisficing is this idea that
Speaker 1: you get super clear on what you want. You say,
Speaker 1: these are my deal breakers, these are the things I
Speaker 1: must have. You know, if you want to have the
Speaker 1: same religion as someone, if you really want them to
Speaker 1: care about animals, if you want to have a certain
Speaker 1: number of kids. And once I find someone that has
Speaker 1: those really important qualities to me, I'm going to commit
Speaker 1: to them and try to make it work. Versus what
Speaker 1: a maximizer does, which is they find that person and
Speaker 1: they're like great, Well, if she exists, I'm going to
Speaker 1: find her. But an even hotter version. And so satisficing
Speaker 1: is really about knowing what's important to you. Finding someone
Speaker 1: that satisfies is that and committing. And this really important
Speaker 1: thing that I want to get across to people is
Speaker 1: that it's not about making the perfect decision. It's about
Speaker 1: how you feel about your decision. And all of the
Speaker 1: research on maximizers show that they often feel regret about
Speaker 1: their decisions because once they make a decision, they're thinking, well,
Speaker 1: what else could I have had? Whereas a satisficer, they're
Speaker 1: much happier in life because they make a decision, they
Speaker 1: commit to it, and that's what matters. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: to make the perfect choice. It matters how you feel
Speaker 1: about your choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and these are it seems like everything you're offering,
Speaker 2: You're like, these really balancing principles, but require a lot
Speaker 2: of work to wrap your head around. When you've been
Speaker 2: conditioned for twenty thirty forty years to be a maximizer,
Speaker 2: it's hard to suddenly recognize the value of satisfying because
Speaker 2: it's worked for you, right, Like being that ambitious, driven
Speaker 2: a type person has worked for you, and now in love,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, maybe it won't work for you in
Speaker 2: this area specifically.
Speaker 1: I think that's a crucial point, is that what works
Speaker 1: for many people and other aspects of their life, whether
Speaker 1: it's exercise, making money, work, doesn't always apply in dating.
Speaker 1: And there is this alchemy, there is this sense of
Speaker 1: two people coming together, and it's why you know, no
Speaker 1: one has an algorithm that perfectly predicts who you're going
Speaker 1: to be with. It really is this thing where two
Speaker 1: people are in front of each other choosing each other,
Speaker 1: and when you're in a relationship, you choose each other
Speaker 1: every single day. And I think that you have to
Speaker 1: take mindset that you apply to work and other optimization
Speaker 1: and you have to switch it when it comes to
Speaker 1: dating and relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always wanted to touch on, just briefly, on the
Speaker 2: top priorities. You mentioned this idea. Sometimes when I hear
Speaker 2: people's top priorities, my number one reaction is that doesn't
Speaker 2: make them a good partner. So, for example, even the
Speaker 2: three you mentioned is what people may say, and I
Speaker 2: know they weren't things that you said or we were
Speaker 2: coming up with a list, But when I think about
Speaker 2: like someone being of the same faith, it's helpful. But
Speaker 2: I know lots of people in my faith that I
Speaker 2: would never married, and so the point is that doesn't
Speaker 2: make them better at being in a relationship. It just
Speaker 2: gives us some common ground or like even like liking
Speaker 2: animals or whatever or maybe And I know those were
Speaker 2: just starting up throwing things out, but I hear things
Speaker 2: like that where it's like I really want to find someone,
Speaker 2: like I don't want to marry a doctor, And I'm like, what, Like,
Speaker 2: how is that even a category? Because unless you're really
Speaker 2: clear about the fact, I don't want someone to have
Speaker 2: late nights and busy schedule, if that's the reason in
Speaker 2: but if it's a personality type attached to that career,
Speaker 2: I'm like, how do you even know that? Like, people
Speaker 2: are so multifaceted. It's not possible that every doctor in
Speaker 2: the world is X or every you know. So I
Speaker 2: guess my point is sometimes I worry with people's top
Speaker 2: priority list because if your top priority list doesn't make
Speaker 2: someone a better partner and better at relationships, it doesn't
Speaker 2: actually matter.
Speaker 1: I'll share the research on what does and doesn't matter
Speaker 1: for long term relationship success, so the doesn't matter. One
Speaker 1: are things that people think matter, but matter less than
Speaker 1: people think they do. So the first one is looks.
Speaker 1: Of course you want to be attracted to your partner.
Speaker 1: Of course you want to have that chemistry with them.
Speaker 1: But what we know is that over time your feelings
Speaker 1: towards somewhat adapt so you're really attracted to them in
Speaker 1: the beginning, but over time you sort of get used
Speaker 1: to how they look. And this happens in many parts
Speaker 1: of life. There's this idea of adaptation. It's why a
Speaker 1: year after winning the lottery, many people's happiness levels revert
Speaker 1: to what they were before they won the lottery. We
Speaker 1: sort of get used to what's around. And that's also
Speaker 1: true for the second one, which is money. Yes, money
Speaker 1: makes things easier. Money can get rid of some problems
Speaker 1: in relationships and buy you some time back. But I
Speaker 1: think when people focus too much on money, they really
Speaker 1: miss out on the fact that it's not correlated with
Speaker 1: long term relationship success. Other things that people mistakenly look
Speaker 1: for include having really similar personalities. Well, I know that
Speaker 1: two of me in a relationship would be way too much,
Speaker 1: and two of my husband in a relationship might be
Speaker 1: too little, and so it's actually great to find someone
Speaker 1: not who's the same as you, but someone who balances you.
Speaker 1: And the same thing is true with people who look
Speaker 1: for the same hobbies. Yes, maybe if you both love wine,
Speaker 1: that's great. But if you love wine and your partner doesn't,
Speaker 1: you can go have fun drinking wine with someone else
Speaker 1: as long as your partner doesn't judge you for it. Now,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the things that matter more than people
Speaker 1: think they do. So the first one is kindness. And
Speaker 1: I think that this is just completely underestimated, and part
Speaker 1: of it is because it's not that easy on a
Speaker 1: day app or just online to see someone's kindness. And
Speaker 1: so when you're out on a date with them, I
Speaker 1: want you to look for things like how they treat
Speaker 1: the weight staff, how they treat people that they don't
Speaker 1: need anything from, even how they treat you. The second
Speaker 1: one is emotional stability, and this is really about someone
Speaker 1: who can get through a relationship and not react, that
Speaker 1: they can actually take a beat, see what the situation
Speaker 1: is and really respond rather than react. And this is
Speaker 1: correlated with great relationships. And then some of the other
Speaker 1: ones are a growth mindset, something that I know you
Speaker 1: talk about on the show. And so someone who when
Speaker 1: they're met with a challenge, they can say, okay, well
Speaker 1: I don't have that skill, but I'll create that skill,
Speaker 1: versus somebody with a fixed mindset who says, you know,
Speaker 1: you're born with the skills you have and like, I'll
Speaker 1: never become good at that because I'm not good at
Speaker 1: that now.
Speaker 2: And then the.
Speaker 1: Ability to fight well together, so people think, oh, I
Speaker 1: want to find someone who I don't fight with at all.
Speaker 1: It's like, no fights are inevitable, And there's research from
Speaker 1: the Gotmans that says that sixty nine percent of the
Speaker 1: fights you have are perpetual. That means you're going to
Speaker 1: constantly fight about it for your whole relationship. Like I'm
Speaker 1: an early bird and my husband is more of a
Speaker 1: late bird, and like we always disagree about time and
Speaker 1: when we get to the airport, and so it's about fighting, well,
Speaker 1: it's not about not fighting. And then the final one,
Speaker 1: which has become super important to me and as part
Speaker 1: of my questions of the post eight eight that we'll
Speaker 1: talk about, is what side of you that person brings out.
Speaker 1: And this is really crucial because so often we date
Speaker 1: someone for their resume, their bio data. We say he
Speaker 1: has all the qualities my mom told me to look for.
Speaker 1: He went to the right schools, he has the right job.
Speaker 1: But if when you show up, he makes you feel
Speaker 1: anxious or insecure or less then or he doesn't laugh
Speaker 1: at your jokes, which makes you think, oh, am, I
Speaker 1: not as funny as I thought I was. Pay attention
Speaker 1: to that. That is your body telling you that you
Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable with this person, and they're not bringing
Speaker 1: out the side of you who you want to be,
Speaker 1: because whoever you marry, you're going to be the side
Speaker 1: of yourself that they bring out. And so so much
Speaker 1: of what I try to do is to help people
Speaker 1: tune into their nervous system and to how they feel
Speaker 1: on the date and after the date, because who cares
Speaker 1: about the resume? Who cares about their job? Do you
Speaker 1: like who you are around them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I love that you broke that down from a
Speaker 2: data perspective, and it totally matches with what my intuition's
Speaker 2: been saying for so long, because everything you mentioned in
Speaker 2: a second category are completely about how someone is in
Speaker 2: a relationship versus how someone is anywhere else in their life,
Speaker 2: which just doesn't correlate. And I think so many people
Speaker 2: get into relationships because of all of the first script,
Speaker 2: and we don't even think about the second until you're
Speaker 2: deep into it, engaged, married, and then you go, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, like, this person isn't kind Like One of
Speaker 2: my favorite things about my wife is that she doesn't
Speaker 2: judge me like that has to be one of the
Speaker 2: most freeing, most beautiful things is that I can try something,
Speaker 2: I can do this, I can be bad at this,
Speaker 2: I can be good at this, and I don't feel judged.
Speaker 2: And that's like the ultimate experience of kindness, where I
Speaker 2: don't feel like anything I do is judged, whether I
Speaker 2: work too odd or work too little, whether I made
Speaker 2: a decision there or here. It's there's a sense of trust,
Speaker 2: and there's a sense of commitment, and there's a sense
Speaker 2: of understanding. At the same time, she's the first one
Speaker 2: who roasted me and called me out if she wants to,
Speaker 2: and she's able to do that too, And I think
Speaker 2: that feels so safe for me, at least in what
Speaker 2: kindness looks like. And I think of that as such
Speaker 2: an important thing to look for, as you've rightly pointed
Speaker 2: out from the data, as opposed to like, yeah, are
Speaker 2: they this tall? Do they hang out in the same
Speaker 2: places as I do. Do they you know, whatever else
Speaker 2: it may be that comes up, What do you think
Speaker 2: is the biggest lie we've been sold in love?
Speaker 1: I would have to say that the biggest lie that
Speaker 1: we've been sold in love is this idea of the spark.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of become my unofficial tagline or motto,
Speaker 1: which is the spark. And I really do believe this
Speaker 1: because I think that when people go on dates looking
Speaker 1: for instant chemistry, they often miss out on great potential partners.
Speaker 1: So the first myth of the spark is that if
Speaker 1: you don't feel it at the beginning, you'll never have it,
Speaker 1: and we know from the research that that's not true.
Speaker 1: So only eleven percent of people experience love at first
Speaker 1: sight with their partner. And so I think because of
Speaker 1: rom coms, because of Disney movies, we just sort of expect, like,
Speaker 1: I'll know it when I see it, he'll walk into
Speaker 1: the room, we'll catch eyes at the farmer's market, and
Speaker 1: we'll live happily ever after, And it's just not true,
Speaker 1: like so many people are with someone who they spent
Speaker 1: time with. I just saw this funny meme yesterday that
Speaker 1: was like your coworker isn't hot. You just spend forty
Speaker 1: hours a week ten feet from him, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you nailed it. That's called the mirror exposure effect. Oftentimes,
Speaker 1: the more times you're around someone, or the more times
Speaker 1: you hear a song, the more you like it because
Speaker 1: you get more familiar with it. And so it's not
Speaker 1: true that if you don't feel the spark, you never will.
Speaker 1: The spark often does grow over time. And the second
Speaker 1: myth of the spark is that if you have it,
Speaker 1: it's a good thing. So sometimes the spark is a
Speaker 1: good thing, and those people get married and have great relationships.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times it's actually our brains and
Speaker 1: our bodies giving off alarm bells, like I feel insecure
Speaker 1: around this person, does he like me? Does he not
Speaker 1: like me? And so we interpret it as chemistry when
Speaker 1: it's actually anxiety. And having done this research for a
Speaker 1: long time, I actually find that certain people are just
Speaker 1: really sparky. They're either really good looking, or sometimes it's
Speaker 1: that they're really narcissistic and they can really layer on
Speaker 1: the charm. But that doesn't mean that they're going to
Speaker 1: be good long term partners. It just means that in
Speaker 1: the moment you felt this connection to them or this
Speaker 1: attraction to them. But sometimes that spark is actually the
Speaker 1: sign of anxiety and not knowing where you stand with them.
Speaker 1: And the third thing, the third myth of the spark
Speaker 1: is that if you have it, then the relationship is viable,
Speaker 1: and that's also not true. I researched so many couples
Speaker 1: going into my book and for my other work that
Speaker 1: started with the they really had it at the beginning,
Speaker 1: and then they thought this is enough, but they fought
Speaker 1: all the time. They didn't have shared values, and so yes,
Speaker 1: the spark can get you pretty far into a relationship,
Speaker 1: but it's not enough, and so make sure that you
Speaker 1: don't get into the wrong relationship because you met the
Speaker 1: quote unquote right way.
Speaker 2: This is so refreshing to hear because I feel like
Speaker 2: it just shows the power of cultural conditioning and messaging.
Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why we launched our production company,
Speaker 2: Perfect Strangers last week, because our goal was how do
Speaker 2: we create entertaining storytelling but that's actually based on reality,
Speaker 2: so we can transform these messages because like you said,
Speaker 2: we've all grown up watching two people lock eyes and
Speaker 2: everything makes sense or drive off with the happily ever
Speaker 2: after and that's what we want, and that's what I wanted,
Speaker 2: quite frankly, like that's what I was looking for when
Speaker 2: I was a teenager, and I always believe that that's
Speaker 2: what love was. And now feeling like I'm in love
Speaker 2: and being in a loving relationship that's evolved. I don't
Speaker 2: think that's what love's like at all. But it's hard
Speaker 2: when you're dating and you're hoping for and you're going
Speaker 2: to all these dates and you're like, well, that was boring,
Speaker 2: that wasn't fun enough. And then you go and even
Speaker 2: if you're watching a TV show, a reality show which
Speaker 2: isn't real, like it's based on an island in the
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. Gosh, everyone's in bikinis and whatever, and
Speaker 2: it's like, that's not real life, and so how is
Speaker 2: that gonna You know, it's the mind. It's the kind
Speaker 2: of like the seeds of ideas that are planted in
Speaker 2: all of our minds of what healthy love looks like.
Speaker 2: You actually never see healthy love because it's just happening
Speaker 2: behind closed doors inside someone's house. They're not broadcasting it.
Speaker 1: Right, It's not as fun on a TV show to
Speaker 1: see like the day in and day out work that
Speaker 1: people have to do, and it's the hard conversation that
Speaker 1: you have to have. It's supporting a partner when they're
Speaker 1: going through depression or ailing parents. It's just not as cinematic.
Speaker 1: And like, what is cinematic is two people meeting each other.
Speaker 1: But we've become so obsessed with the we met. And
Speaker 1: if you meet someone and you're with them for fifty years,
Speaker 1: the day you met is point zero zero five percent
Speaker 1: of your total relationship. And so when you hear that,
Speaker 1: you're like, who cares about the we met? But people
Speaker 1: want to say at the dinner party, well, I was
Speaker 1: at the library and I was returning a book and
Speaker 1: he was looking for the same book. And it's like, yes,
Speaker 1: that is cute, and that is romantic, But what's romantic
Speaker 1: is the fact that you met and you're making a
Speaker 1: great relationship, not really based on how you met.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about dating apps. Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: how the majority of people are meeting today as far as
Speaker 2: I know, statistically, is that true? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So since twenty seventeen, there's research from Michael Rosenfeld at
Speaker 1: Stanford that shows that meeting online is the number one
Speaker 1: way that couples meet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so that we have to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Do dating apps make us feel like
Speaker 2: we're replaceable?
Speaker 1: I think that there is a big sense of the
Speaker 1: paradox of choice, this idea that when we have so
Speaker 1: many options, we don't value each one as much, or
Speaker 1: that we regret our decision. And so I think the
Speaker 1: best part of dating apps is that it's a lot
Speaker 1: easier to find someone, especially if you're in what we
Speaker 1: call a fin market. So Dat's over fifty five LGBTQ
Speaker 1: plus daters, someone where it might have been hard to
Speaker 1: go around your community and say, well, who's single and
Speaker 1: who's looking for someone like me? And so it really
Speaker 1: does a good job at connecting people who wouldn't have
Speaker 1: met otherwise. But I do think it introduces this idea
Speaker 1: of many choices, and people are struggling with that.
Speaker 2: If you're at the opposite end of way, you're getting
Speaker 2: zero matches on a dating app, how do you fix that?
Speaker 2: Where would you suggest people stop?
Speaker 1: The number one thing to do if you are having
Speaker 1: trouble getting matches is to fix your profile. And your
Speaker 1: profile is essentially like your billboard, and it's this one
Speaker 1: chance with limited real estate to share who you are
Speaker 1: and what you're about, and I can share some of
Speaker 1: the top tips we found at Hinge for making a
Speaker 1: great profile.
Speaker 2: Yeah please.
Speaker 1: So the first thing is that your first photo is
Speaker 1: so important. Just from watching people go through profiles, I
Speaker 1: can tell you that what they do is they look
Speaker 1: at the first picture, they decide if they like you
Speaker 1: or not, and based on that they keep looking. So
Speaker 1: the first picture really matters a ton, and you want
Speaker 1: one that's a clear headshot. Doesn't have to be a
Speaker 1: professional headshot, but I can see what you look like.
Speaker 1: You're not wearing sunglasses, there's no shadow, there's no filter.
Speaker 1: Just show me what you look like. That's really where
Speaker 1: to start, and obviously it should be flattering. Then you
Speaker 1: want to have a variety of photos that show me
Speaker 1: different parts of yourself. So it's almost like show me
Speaker 1: the story of who you are. A mistake that I
Speaker 1: see people making a lot is you know, if a
Speaker 1: guy likes anime, he'll write about that on his Hinge profile.
Speaker 1: Have have photos from anime and it's like got it,
Speaker 1: you love anime. Hopefully the next person does too, But like,
Speaker 1: isn't there more to you? Show me more variety? And
Speaker 1: so you want to have the first headshot. Then you
Speaker 1: want to have a photo of you doing an activity
Speaker 1: that you love, so it could be cooking, hiking. You know,
Speaker 1: my friend is a magician, he has a picture of
Speaker 1: himself on stage. Then you also want to have a
Speaker 1: full body shot. Some people don't like that, but it's true.
Speaker 1: People are looking for what you look like. And then
Speaker 1: you want to have one with friends and family. Give
Speaker 1: me a sense of what it would be like to date.
Speaker 1: You show me that you have people that care about
Speaker 1: you and that you spend time with. And then for
Speaker 1: your prompts on Hinge, you want a mixture of humor
Speaker 1: and vulnerability, so you know if you love dad, jokes
Speaker 1: include that I love. On Hinge, there's voice prompts where
Speaker 1: you can record something funny. So my friend has one
Speaker 1: where the prompt is how to pronounce my name? And
Speaker 1: then he says Joe, And obviously you know some people
Speaker 1: right back and they're like, what you think, I don't
Speaker 1: know how to pronounce the name Joe, And he's like,
Speaker 1: not for me. And other people are like, I love
Speaker 1: your sense of humor, so I think that's like perfect,
Speaker 1: And that actually leads me to a big point around profiles,
Speaker 1: which is that you don't want to attract everyone. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be chocolate ice cream that everyone likes.
Speaker 1: You want to be, you know, mintship. You want to
Speaker 1: be something that some people like and some people don't like.
Speaker 1: And in our research at Hinge, we actually found this
Speaker 1: where we did an experiment. This wasn't on Hinge, it
Speaker 1: was like with different people and they knew there were
Speaker 1: anticipating where some people wrote on their profiles really specifically
Speaker 1: that they were looking for something serious, and other people
Speaker 1: wrote that they're, you know, just looking for someone kind
Speaker 1: and adventurous. And what we found was for the people
Speaker 1: who wanted something serious, they liked those more serious profiles
Speaker 1: way more, and the people who weren't looking for something
Speaker 1: serious were turned off by their profiles. And that is
Speaker 1: exactly what you want. You want to turn the right
Speaker 1: people on and the wrong people off. You want fewer options,
Speaker 1: but you want those options to be really aligned with
Speaker 1: what you're looking for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, and you can really then filter out
Speaker 2: the nonsense because if you want something serious, why waste time.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's not a popularity contest. It's not to
Speaker 1: get the most likes it's really be more efficient match
Speaker 1: with the people who want what you want. On Hinge,
Speaker 1: we have dating intentions where you can say looking for
Speaker 1: long term, short term, like just get more specific about
Speaker 1: what you're looking for, and then the right people are
Speaker 1: going to find you. If you're trying to be you know,
Speaker 1: the golden retriever that everyone likes, it's harder to actually
Speaker 1: find the right match.
Speaker 2: I want to try something with you. Sure, we have
Speaker 2: two Hinge dating profiles. We've got permission from the individuals
Speaker 2: for their face to be used in their pictures, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to pass this to you in a second,
Speaker 2: and i want you to rate them and help them
Speaker 2: basically stay you just told us what we can do. Right,
Speaker 2: So there's there's one guy and one girl. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to show you this one.
Speaker 1: Wait, I thought this was Will Arnett.
Speaker 2: No it's not. That's so much.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the first picture, I would say, it's not
Speaker 1: a headshot, but it's you know, I do get a
Speaker 1: sense of what this person looks like. There's good lighting.
Speaker 1: I feel like the body language is a little closed off,
Speaker 1: just like standing in that arms in front of you
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I'm not Vanessa van Edwards, but
Speaker 1: I feel like it kind of gives me a sense
Speaker 1: of someone who's like a little more timid, not as confident.
Speaker 1: But I think that the first photo is okay, but
Speaker 1: let's see the rest of the profile.
Speaker 2: Okay, good, that's helpful. Okay.
Speaker 1: A random fact I love is that honey never expires.
Speaker 1: I just don't love that prompt. It's not one of
Speaker 1: my favorites because it doesn't show me anything about who
Speaker 1: you are. And I like to think about your profile
Speaker 1: not just as what you write, but even the prompts
Speaker 1: you choose to respond to. And I like to think
Speaker 1: about it as almost like a menu at a restaurant.
Speaker 1: You should choose a prompt that shows who you are.
Speaker 1: You should choose a prompt that shows what you're looking for.
Speaker 1: And so I think a random fact, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a good conversation starter where someone can say
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that, but it's just not that revealing,
Speaker 1: And even being towards the top of the profile, it
Speaker 1: kind of feel like it's a little bit of a
Speaker 1: waste of special special real estate love.
Speaker 2: How honest you are. This is very ver, This is
Speaker 2: very helpful.
Speaker 1: It never crosses my mind to not be honest.
Speaker 2: No, but it's very helpful because I think these are
Speaker 2: the things that we will trip ourselves up from. We
Speaker 2: want to help them find love.
Speaker 1: So for sure. Okay, so this one is interesting. So
Speaker 1: for work, they said entertainment. So one thing I've seen
Speaker 1: in talking to a lot of people about their profiles
Speaker 1: is that or sorry, talking to people who look at profiles,
Speaker 1: is that when someone's too vague, people often jump to
Speaker 1: negative assumptions. So I worked with a client who said,
Speaker 1: and this is in the Bay Area, if a guy
Speaker 1: says entrepreneur, I assume he's unemployed, and I swipe left,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what, Like, there's just so many
Speaker 1: ways of being an entrepreneur. And so what I would
Speaker 1: say is my advice for him is to maybe be
Speaker 1: a little more specific because people might just assume the
Speaker 1: wrong thing. And my advice to people viewing this profile
Speaker 1: or other profiles would be, if there's something that gives
Speaker 1: you a yellow flag, don't just swipe left or say no,
Speaker 1: actually ask instead of assume. Okay, So this next one,
Speaker 1: wearing the suit, I think what I get from it
Speaker 1: is that I kind of get the same thing as
Speaker 1: I do from the first one like, he's making a
Speaker 1: very similar expression. It's kind of shot from a similar angle.
Speaker 1: He's not really smiling. I feel like it. It's a
Speaker 1: cute too, but I don't get that much more information.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: The next one, Oh, this guy likes women, right, was
Speaker 1: I making an assumption?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: The next one is with him and his friend. I
Speaker 1: like it because I think there's an intimacy there. It
Speaker 1: looks like he's wearing a cross necklace, which maybe gives
Speaker 1: me some more information. He's sort of making the same
Speaker 1: smile with no teeth. I think that one's okay. And
Speaker 1: then green flags I look for appreciating sarcasm. I really
Speaker 1: don't like that one. We know there's a lot of
Speaker 1: hinge app cliches, and one of them is the one
Speaker 1: I'm fluent in sarcasm. I think this is similar where
Speaker 1: it's just like, I don't really learn that much about you.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of detail. It kind of just
Speaker 1: makes you fade into the background.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: The next one I really don't like. He's looking away
Speaker 1: from the camera. I can't really see his space. To me,
Speaker 1: that picture kind of like pushes me away versus draws
Speaker 1: me in. Sorry, I'm being mean.
Speaker 2: To this guy. But it's all this mean we're hoping
Speaker 2: that he can actually he's getting this is like this
Speaker 2: is gold dust. You're getting a direct advice from the.
Speaker 1: Next one my greatest strength, My greatest strength, picking the spot.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, bro, there's so much more that you
Speaker 1: could say here, just get specific. There's this rule in
Speaker 1: comedy that the specific is the universal. The more specific
Speaker 1: you are, the more people will actually relate to it,
Speaker 1: and the funnier it is. And I'm just like, this
Speaker 1: is so vague. Picking the spot for what? And then
Speaker 1: the next one is a video of him playing tennis.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I like that it's you know, someone doing an activity
Speaker 1: you love, but it's like it's from behind. Could it
Speaker 1: have perhaps shown you from the front. And so guys
Speaker 1: especially tell me like I don't have better pictures or
Speaker 1: like I don't go around ask my friends to take
Speaker 1: pictures of me. I know our friend Jared Freed and
Speaker 1: his special thirty seven in single, He's just like talking
Speaker 1: about how like imagine if guys were like girls like
Speaker 1: at the bachelor party, like okay, take a picture of
Speaker 1: me here, but still guys like step it up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then you know, I think I don't mind the
Speaker 1: tennis one, but I would much prefer to its from
Speaker 1: the front. And then the last one is him with
Speaker 1: his friends, and I'm kind of like, okay, I see
Speaker 1: the crew. So going back to the top, what I
Speaker 1: would say is, I want you to find a better
Speaker 1: first photo that really shows you headshot style clearly what
Speaker 1: you look like. And I don't really see you smiling
Speaker 1: with your teeth much, but I would love to see
Speaker 1: one of those. I want you to just start from
Speaker 1: scratch on the prompts. I want you to give more
Speaker 1: specific answers, longer answers. I want to have a clear
Speaker 1: sense of who you are, what you're about, what you want,
Speaker 1: and I would maybe keep one of the more professional
Speaker 1: looking photos, either the first one or the one in
Speaker 1: the suit. I like the ones of you and your friends,
Speaker 1: but I would maybe choose no. I actually like both
Speaker 1: of them. I think the tennis one. Can you try
Speaker 1: to get one where I can see your face and
Speaker 1: you know, just add more specificity and tell me more
Speaker 1: about what you're looking for, because right now I think
Speaker 1: this profile feels generic and I think we could make
Speaker 1: it more specific.
Speaker 2: Great advice. So, and is there a need to rate
Speaker 2: on a scale of one to ten or not. Really,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Because I don't know him. It's harder for me to
Speaker 1: do that. Like in my coaching, a big conversation I
Speaker 1: have with people as I say, this profile doesn't match
Speaker 1: the person I'm seeing in front of me, Like you're
Speaker 1: so vibrant, you're so funny. I don't see that here.
Speaker 1: And a great achievement for me in coaching was when
Speaker 1: I had this client and he was South Asian and
Speaker 1: people often put him in a box. They were like
Speaker 1: South Asian engineer, Like I know everything about him. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, he's actually so silly, and we
Speaker 1: made his profile extremely silly, and we added videos of
Speaker 1: him wearing different costumes and we really played that up.
Speaker 1: And then a few years after we stopped working together,
Speaker 1: he sent me a text that he was engaged and
Speaker 1: that the person that he had gotten engaged to had
Speaker 1: first liked his hinge video of him being really silly.
Speaker 1: And it's like, by being more clear about who he was,
Speaker 1: you couldn't put him in a box. You could actually
Speaker 1: see who he was. And so I don't have a
Speaker 1: rating for this profile because I don't know the person.
Speaker 1: So I don't know how true to life this is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think there's a lot of room for improvement
Speaker 1: and just be more chalant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Great advice. So now I'm going
Speaker 2: to hand you another profile, theystem of a woman, and
Speaker 2: I'd love to see what you have to say.
Speaker 1: Great. It's funny because I just sometimes feel like women
Speaker 1: are way better at profiles because they just have so
Speaker 1: many more photos of them, and they're probably more comfortable
Speaker 1: asking their friends. So maybe first I'm just gonna look
Speaker 1: at the whole thing to get a vibe, and then
Speaker 1: I'll have some comments. So first photo, I really like it. Like,
Speaker 1: I love the lighting, I like the vibe, I like
Speaker 1: her smile. You know, it could potentially be cropped in
Speaker 1: a little bit more. There's like a little more visual
Speaker 1: information and noise than we need. Like I think it
Speaker 1: could be crop more on her face. But I like it,
Speaker 1: and I think I the number one thing is can
Speaker 1: I see clearly what she looks like? And I can? Okay,
Speaker 1: the next one is my greatest strength, turning chaos into
Speaker 1: a good story later. I actually like that one to me.
Speaker 1: Reading between the lines, I get a good vibe from it,
Speaker 1: which is I'm a person that can deal with different situations,
Speaker 1: like if something goes wrong, I'm not going to fall apart.
Speaker 1: And it actually reminds me. I used to work at
Speaker 1: Airbnb a long time ago, and we would talk about how,
Speaker 1: like a really great Airbnb traveler was somebody who knows
Speaker 1: that when things go wrong, that's when they get interesting.
Speaker 1: And like that's the vibe that I get from her,
Speaker 1: where she's not afraid of discomfort or adventure. She's like,
Speaker 1: it makes a good story later. So maybe I'm like
Speaker 1: overly reading into it, but I like that.
Speaker 2: But that's probably good, right, got you curious, you got
Speaker 2: you engaged, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1: One thing I didn't mention on the other person's profile
Speaker 1: is this idea of a hook. So a lot of
Speaker 1: times people think about a profile as a monologue. I'm
Speaker 1: just talking at you, But a great profile should be
Speaker 1: a dialogue where I'm starting the conversation and you respond,
Speaker 1: so turning chaos into a good story later. And then
Speaker 1: she could add a question that says, ask me about
Speaker 1: the time that I almost got kidnapped in Vietnam. Then
Speaker 1: I'm like, holy cow, I want to hear about Vietnam.
Speaker 1: I want to hear about that story and so it
Speaker 1: initiates actually, and it also especially for women attracting men,
Speaker 1: it's like, just make it easy for them. Just make
Speaker 1: it so that like they know what to ask you,
Speaker 1: like you want them to ask more questions, Like make
Speaker 1: it easy for them to start the conversation. Okay, I
Speaker 1: like that it's executive assistant at production company, you know,
Speaker 1: versus the person who wrote entertainment. There's more information. So
Speaker 1: she wrote Christian, and I think this is interesting because
Speaker 1: when I've gone through profiles with people that are swiping,
Speaker 1: sometimes they see Christian and they're like, well, I'm not religious.
Speaker 1: She must be so religious to put it on there.
Speaker 1: I just don't think that's the case. That's a situation
Speaker 1: where you should ask instead of assume. So does Christian
Speaker 1: to her mean that she's in Mass every Sunday or
Speaker 1: does it mean that she celebrates Easter and Christmas? And
Speaker 1: so really finding out what that means to her, and
Speaker 1: then I love this. So on Hinde, she filled out
Speaker 1: her dating intentions, so she's looking for a life partner,
Speaker 1: and she filled out her dating type and she put monogamy. So,
Speaker 1: especially in the Bay Area, there's so many people who
Speaker 1: are like, thank god Hinge added dating type because I'm
Speaker 1: sick of going on dates with guys who are not monogamous.
Speaker 1: And so anyway, I like that she used more of
Speaker 1: the information available and for someone who's not looking for
Speaker 1: those things, she's going to turn them off and that's
Speaker 1: a good thing.
Speaker 2: Okay. The next picture super cute.
Speaker 1: I kind of get a preppy vibe, like she's holding
Speaker 1: this little parasol she's drinking. I like it, Like I
Speaker 1: think I can see what she looks like. She looks cute.
Speaker 1: We could kind of call this a full body shot,
Speaker 1: but I think what's great is that I'm just like
Speaker 1: getting a sense of her.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: The next one is also great because it's showing her
Speaker 1: with her friend, but I can tell which one she is.
Speaker 1: So a mistake that people make is like You'll have
Speaker 1: like ten guys in baseball caps and I'm like, which
Speaker 1: one is you? Like this is so annoying? Or like
Speaker 1: ten girls in bridesmaid's robes with the same southern curled
Speaker 1: hair and it's like this isn't where's waldo? Like make
Speaker 1: it easy for me to see what you look like?
Speaker 1: And so for this one, it's like I can tell,
Speaker 1: like she's sort of glamorous. She has like, you know,
Speaker 1: a cute outfit, but it's really easy to tell which
Speaker 1: one she is. I go crazy for someone who can
Speaker 1: cook well a truly spiritual experience. I think that one's good.
Speaker 1: I think she could have more details, Like she could
Speaker 1: do another hook where it could be like like message
Speaker 1: me if you know how to cook Paea, or like
Speaker 1: let's have a French host competition, just something that's setting
Speaker 1: the other person up. Okay, the next one, he's a
Speaker 1: fantastic sure.
Speaker 2: You know. The next one.
Speaker 1: It's so funny, you know, like the idea of like
Speaker 1: a male gaze. It's like I definitely think this is
Speaker 1: like a hot photo and like a guy would be
Speaker 1: into it, and like, look like there is kind of
Speaker 1: the strategic game part, and I think that that is
Speaker 1: like a great photo. And then typical Sunday. Okay, this
Speaker 1: is probably my number one favorite hinge prompt because there's
Speaker 1: so much you can do a typical Sunday. So let's
Speaker 1: see what you're wrote. Being outdoors playing pickleball. She could
Speaker 1: play with you jay or spending time around any area
Speaker 1: that has dogs around. I think that's okay, Like I
Speaker 1: get a sense of her, but I think it could
Speaker 1: like have more detail or like being outdoors and playing
Speaker 1: pickleball like so similar, and so I would say, like
Speaker 1: great prompt. I think many people should use it, but
Speaker 1: I would like a little more specificity, like are you
Speaker 1: uh dumplings at home on a Sunday?
Speaker 3: Girl?
Speaker 1: Are you uh having dinner with your family every Sunday?
Speaker 1: Like I think a little more detail. Okay, she has
Speaker 1: the full body shot. One thing I would say is
Speaker 1: that she definitely looks like very glamorous in a lot
Speaker 1: of these, which maybe if that's her vibe, that's great,
Speaker 1: but I'm not seeing as much variety in terms of
Speaker 1: like is she also just down to be with her friends?
Speaker 1: And so if this is truly who she is, where
Speaker 1: she's like I love to, like get dressed up, have
Speaker 1: a cute purse, have a drink in my hand. If
Speaker 1: that's who she is, then she's portraying that. But I
Speaker 1: think it's possible and probable that there's more to her
Speaker 1: and that like, she looks great in all the pictures,
Speaker 1: but they are a little bit one note.
Speaker 2: So like in sweats, if you spend time in sweats
Speaker 2: or not, Yeah, were.
Speaker 1: Like maybe like her with her family being a little
Speaker 1: bit more like girl next door. And so this is
Speaker 1: another one where I'm like, I don't know who she is.
Speaker 1: So maybe this is accurate, and maybe she's like, this
Speaker 1: is what I'm doing right now, but I think she's
Speaker 1: maybe lacking a little bit of that variety. But I
Speaker 1: would say, like this is like a good profile with
Speaker 1: potential for a little bit more variety and maybe a
Speaker 1: little more specificity. But I think she is like beautiful
Speaker 1: and chose great pictures and we do get a sense
Speaker 1: of who she is and what she likes.
Speaker 2: Fantastic, great, Thank you, Logan, thank you so much. Deep
Speaker 2: reading very well, Yeah, very deep. I love it. I mean,
Speaker 2: what you just showed us is that someone could be
Speaker 2: working on that first profile and have that up there
Speaker 2: and maybe get very few matches, not because they're not
Speaker 2: a great guy and not a great person and have
Speaker 2: so much to offer, but just because that's the bio,
Speaker 2: that's the resume that people are seeing and there's nothing
Speaker 2: for them to engage on. I really appreciate what you
Speaker 2: said about making it easy for men, because I mean
Speaker 2: I think about even back when I had to approach someone,
Speaker 2: it was so much more easy to approach a woman
Speaker 2: who made it easier for me to approach her, And
Speaker 2: it would take so much courage to approach someone who
Speaker 2: gave you no signals whatsoever. And so even for her
Speaker 2: if she really wants people to lean in, giving them
Speaker 2: that opportunity to say, let's have a cooking competition or
Speaker 2: whatever it was, or whatever it may be. I think
Speaker 2: that invitation for action, that initiation is so important.
Speaker 1: Right, It's like, it's not a test, it's a layup,
Speaker 1: like make it easy for the other person to know
Speaker 1: what to engage you on. And so if you aren't
Speaker 1: getting the number of matches you want, first thing I
Speaker 1: would do is make your profile as good as possible.
Speaker 1: Show it to some friends, get some new pictures, Say
Speaker 1: to your closest friend, is the person who you see
Speaker 1: in front of you the same person you see in
Speaker 1: this profile, and if not, change it. The second thing
Speaker 1: I would do is send comments instead of just likes.
Speaker 1: So this really trains the algorithm to show who you're
Speaker 1: looking for. Comments are much more likely to lead to
Speaker 1: a date than just sending a like, And it just
Speaker 1: shows more effort. Right, we're talking about chalant dating, so
Speaker 1: put more effort in hinge actually just launched something within
Speaker 1: the past few months called convos Starters, and it's a
Speaker 1: way to basically use AI not to write the message
Speaker 1: for you, but just to kind of spark inspiration where
Speaker 1: it's like if it's a girl playing chess, you know,
Speaker 1: there might be like a little bubble that pops up
Speaker 1: that says like checkers versus chess, and then you can say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good idea. I'm going to ask about backgammon.
Speaker 1: And so it's kind of just like that little coach
Speaker 1: in your pocket that's telling you, like, if you're stuck
Speaker 1: on what to say, here are a few ideas, and
Speaker 1: it has it like for each picture and each prompt.
Speaker 2: We hear so many people say that there's no good
Speaker 2: people on the apps, Well what are they missing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so complicated, Like I hear that all the time,
Speaker 1: and I think there's plenty of good people out there.
Speaker 1: There's just all these misconnections. And I don't think it's
Speaker 1: just about apps. I think it's about everyday life. Like
Speaker 1: I feel like we're just missing each other. And this
Speaker 1: has become kind of an obsession of mine. Have you
Speaker 1: heard of the term friction maxing.
Speaker 2: I've heard of it, Please explain it. What is friction maxing?
Speaker 1: So this is something I've been thinking about for a
Speaker 1: few years, but there was this viral article about friction
Speaker 1: maxing and I was like, yes, Like that's the word
Speaker 1: that I've been looking for. And so friction maxing is
Speaker 1: choosing to put more inconvenience into your life in order
Speaker 1: to have more human connection. Go to the grocery store
Speaker 1: instead of ordering instacart, you know, take the subway where
Speaker 1: you're going to interact with people, overtaking an uber. And
Speaker 1: it's like these tech companies have kind of convinced us
Speaker 1: your life should be as convenient as possible and you
Speaker 1: will be happy when you reduce friction. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a lie. Like, think about the definition of friction.
Speaker 1: It's when two things rub against each other.
Speaker 2: And if you think.
Speaker 1: About that in the real world, it's like rubbing shoulders
Speaker 1: with someone in line at an event or just meeting
Speaker 1: new people. And so I think that we've become obsessed
Speaker 1: with self care and boundaries and like those things are great,
Speaker 1: but I think it's a little out of control where
Speaker 1: self care often is selfish. This is my schedule and
Speaker 1: we can't hang out unless you can definitely do it
Speaker 1: on my schedule, or like, I go to bed at
Speaker 1: eight pm every night, so I could never go on
Speaker 1: a date with you in the evening. It's like, in
Speaker 1: kind of protecting yourself from discomfort, you're really missing the
Speaker 1: chance to interact with people. And like, I'm just seeing
Speaker 1: this all the time, and I see it with myself.
Speaker 1: There just is that urge what's the most convenient option?
Speaker 1: And I'm really trying to fight it in my own life,
Speaker 1: adding more friction in being more around other people, fighting
Speaker 1: the isolation. And so I think that when you approach
Speaker 1: someone in public, it is riskier and you might get rejected,
Speaker 1: but you're creating friction that might lead to a great result.
Speaker 1: And so I think all of us have to increase
Speaker 1: our ability to withstand discomfort because it's going to lead
Speaker 1: to great stories and so many more relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, well said. Can you you explain friction
Speaker 2: maxing Shalan dating? Can you explain what rose jail is
Speaker 2: and why people experiencing not my favorite topic? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so rose jeal is something that you know, I
Speaker 1: don't hear about it as as much now, but a
Speaker 1: few years ago where people feel like, oh the people
Speaker 1: that I want to see on hinge, I have to
Speaker 1: buy money or spend money on a rose to get them.
Speaker 1: And so what I would say is like the rose
Speaker 1: system does work, and that we see that people that
Speaker 1: send rose are two times as likely as other people
Speaker 1: to actually get to a date.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like good. It's what's interesting about the
Speaker 2: friction Maxine. Going back to that, it's almost just helpful
Speaker 2: to be out there and bumping into people and meeting people,
Speaker 2: because you actually become better at conversation, You get find
Speaker 2: new things to talk about, you have more experiences. We
Speaker 2: have a loneliness epidemic in the world anyway, and so
Speaker 2: the ability to just be in public places and bump
Speaker 2: into people and and other things like, I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: pickleball's biggest promoter, but it's I have made so many
Speaker 2: casual pickleball friends just by playing pickleball at public courts,
Speaker 2: and it's just one of those things where you just
Speaker 2: start a game up with someone and you get to
Speaker 2: know each other and next thing you know, you're hanging out.
Speaker 2: And I feel the same is true. I was at
Speaker 2: a my friend runs a really cool acting class, and
Speaker 2: he asked me to come check it out and I
Speaker 2: went a couple of weeks ago just to observe, and
Speaker 2: everyone in his class, like you could tell they just
Speaker 2: have this amazing community. I was like, I wish everyone
Speaker 2: came to this class because there was such a great
Speaker 2: energy there and people are encouraging each other. They were kind,
Speaker 2: and I was like, you could easily find someone here
Speaker 2: to match with. I was just thinking about all the
Speaker 2: possibilities of places where there is community built around something singular,
Speaker 2: almost like we know that just you know, thirty to
Speaker 2: forty years ago, people to meet at their church or
Speaker 2: place of worship, people to meet in the building they
Speaker 2: lived in, Like you needed almost this singular place where
Speaker 2: you congregated for a particular need, which is how we
Speaker 2: met people, whether it was a Sunday roast or a
Speaker 2: family dinner and family friends were invited. And it almost
Speaker 2: feels like we've lost that. And I think that's what
Speaker 2: you're encouraging people to do.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And there was this quote going around last year,
Speaker 1: the cost of community is inconvenience, And I think people
Speaker 1: are just so obsessed with making their lives frictionless and
Speaker 1: not ever inconveniencing themselves that they forget that. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not that fun to help your friend move, but that's
Speaker 1: part of being a friend and being in a community.
Speaker 1: And I would say in my life, I've sort of
Speaker 1: taken this to the extreme. So during the pandemic, my
Speaker 1: husband and I moved into this commune with twenty of
Speaker 1: our friends, and so we each had our own little apartment,
Speaker 1: but you have twenty people living together and having dinner
Speaker 1: together every night. And those were some of the happiest
Speaker 1: years of my life. And yes, sometimes there was friction.
Speaker 1: You know, it was twenty twenty. We had to have
Speaker 1: these like long, boring, antagonistic meetings about COVID protocol. But
Speaker 1: that was the price that you pay to live with
Speaker 1: your friends. And I think that we constantly choose what
Speaker 1: we think is best for ourselves, but what we really
Speaker 1: do is make things convenient, and then we are more isolated.
Speaker 1: And like when you're at home, behind your screen, you're
Speaker 1: not out there meeting new people. And it's not just
Speaker 1: about meeting the guy you're going to marry. It's about
Speaker 1: meeting the girl who has a brother who has a
Speaker 1: friend who you're going to meet if you all go
Speaker 1: to that festival together. And I think that like if
Speaker 1: you tie a lot of the strings together that we're
Speaker 1: talking about, Like there's a loneliness epidemic. There's men and
Speaker 1: women who are thinking that the other person wants something
Speaker 1: different from them. And like, the more times that you
Speaker 1: put yourself in places where you're going to meet someone,
Speaker 1: the more friction you're creating, the more opportunity for connection
Speaker 1: that you're taking. And I hope that that's a big
Speaker 1: message that people take away from this conversation is be
Speaker 1: a chalant dat put your effort out there, be willing
Speaker 1: to get rejected, friction max put yourself in more situations
Speaker 1: where it's not convenient, but you're going to meet more people,
Speaker 1: And like, isn't that what life is really about?
Speaker 2: Totally? It's so true, And I think that's it feels
Speaker 2: like the ethos of this whole conversation, which is like
Speaker 2: seek discomfort, become more resilient, live with the challenge that
Speaker 2: there is a high rejection proportion of just finding the
Speaker 2: one and the one thing I like to remind people
Speaker 2: also is that if everyone liked you and you liked everyone,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be that valuable of a discovery. Like the
Speaker 2: beautiful thing about love is that you found someone who
Speaker 2: wants to work with you on it and you want
Speaker 2: to work with them on it, And how special is that?
Speaker 2: And if you felt that with every person you went
Speaker 2: out on a date with, or if every person responded
Speaker 2: to you positively, well, then we wouldn't value love as much.
Speaker 2: The reason why we value love and long term relationships
Speaker 2: is because they're rare, because they're special, they're hard, they're
Speaker 2: not something that you feel freely available with everyone.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I do this work and my mission is
Speaker 1: really to help people find love because I think it's
Speaker 1: one of the most important things that you can experience.
Speaker 1: And who you choose as your partner, that's your board
Speaker 1: of directors, that's a person advising you right like, you
Speaker 1: become the average of the people that you're around, and
Speaker 1: your partner is going to be one of those people.
Speaker 1: And so I think that it really deserves a lot
Speaker 1: of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of care,
Speaker 1: and that the more that we can put that effort
Speaker 1: in and not be afraid of it, the more great
Speaker 1: relationships we're going to have.
Speaker 2: Do you believe in right person, wrong time?
Speaker 1: That's funny that you asked that, because I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about it lately. So you know, this is kind of
Speaker 1: a thing that people say, like timing is everything, and
Speaker 1: I used to not believe that. I used to believe
Speaker 1: if it was the right match, the person would make
Speaker 1: at the right time. And my thinking on that has changed,
Speaker 1: where if you're dating someone but they're in medical school
Speaker 1: and they really don't have time for you, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's going to work out. So I would say,
Speaker 1: the right person the wrong time is not the right person.
Speaker 2: Got it. Yeah, it's a question I love to ask
Speaker 2: people because I feel like these are those maybe the romanticizers, yeah,
Speaker 2: who have this way of thinking about something and it
Speaker 2: keeps them trapped. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like I was just asked this question the other week
Speaker 1: where this person was like, oh, I was dating this guy,
Speaker 1: but he recently got out of a relationship and then
Speaker 1: we were fighting a lot and I ended things. Do
Speaker 1: you think it was timing? And I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I think you were fighting a lot because you weren't
Speaker 1: a good fit, not because of timing. And sometimes we
Speaker 1: can get really obsessed with timing. But I think that,
Speaker 1: like you know, in behavioral science, so much is the environment.
Speaker 1: It's like, if the environment that you're dating in is
Speaker 1: that they're not ready, Well, that means that you shouldn't
Speaker 1: be in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Do people relationships too fast?
Speaker 1: Now, yes, I think that people give up too easily.
Speaker 1: This is what we were talking about. So remember there's
Speaker 1: the work at out mindset, the idea that, of course
Speaker 1: relationships take effort, and so when you hit that inevitable
Speaker 1: rough spot, don't say, well, we disagreed on this, so
Speaker 1: instead of having a hard conversation, I'll just end it.
Speaker 1: And that really goes back to the ethos of what
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, Like, understand that relationships require inconvenience, discomfort, friction,
Speaker 1: and so when you have that first fight, say wow,
Speaker 1: I guess you feel really strongly about that, and let's
Speaker 1: have a conversation about it, versus being like, this is
Speaker 1: too much work. And so I would say, yes, dating
Speaker 1: apps provide more options to meet more people, but don't
Speaker 1: treat people like their disposable because that's just a recipe
Speaker 1: for sort of burning and churning relationships. And really understand
Speaker 1: that each relationship is an opportunity to invest in someone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it goes back to what you were saying
Speaker 2: earlier about moving towards the workout mindsets. You mentioned like
Speaker 2: just it's almost like you're getting to practice what a
Speaker 2: real relationship looks like, and that first difficult moment is
Speaker 2: like this brilliant moment to actually realize what skills you
Speaker 2: do have, what skills you don't have, what attitude that
Speaker 2: person's willing to come at. I was wondering, I love
Speaker 2: that you have such I mean, your advice logan is
Speaker 2: so brilliant, and it's no surprise with the incredible work
Speaker 2: that you do online and offline, but I yeah, I
Speaker 2: really mean it. It's so great and it feels so
Speaker 2: real and actionable and genuine to It's not playing a game.
Speaker 2: It's not some manipulation strategy. It's not you know, it's
Speaker 2: really authentic when it comes to evaluating a great date, because,
Speaker 2: as you said, we usually get distracted by the spark.
Speaker 2: If the spark is not there, we're probably not going
Speaker 2: to go out on another date. And if we force
Speaker 2: ourselves to god on a second day and there's no
Speaker 2: spark again, we're probably not going to go on a third.
Speaker 2: I think we have very limited tools to evaluate a
Speaker 2: successful date, but I know you have an approach that
Speaker 2: is far more comprehensive. What should people be asking after
Speaker 2: they go on a date with someone.
Speaker 1: I have this tool called the post date eight and
Speaker 1: these are eight questions to ask yourself after a date.
Speaker 1: And the research behind this is really based on gratitude journals.
Speaker 1: So if every day you have to write down at
Speaker 1: the end of the day five things you were grateful for,
Speaker 1: it changes how you live your life because throughout the
Speaker 1: day you're looking for those salt things and you're appreciating them,
Speaker 1: right like I made the bus when I almost could
Speaker 1: have missed it, or it was really sunny and I
Speaker 1: got a table outside. So it trains your brand to
Speaker 1: look for the positives, and the same thing is true
Speaker 1: with this post date eight. So these are eight questions
Speaker 1: that you ask yourself after a date, and they are
Speaker 1: things like what side of me did the person bring out?
Speaker 1: How did I feel in my body around them? Did
Speaker 1: I feel relaxed or did I feel uptight? Did I
Speaker 1: feel heard? Did I feel attractive? Did they make me laugh?
Speaker 1: And what's really important is that these questions are not
Speaker 1: are they good enough for me? Is he hot enough?
Speaker 1: Does she have an impressive enough job?
Speaker 2: There?
Speaker 1: Who am I around them? And it goes back to
Speaker 1: what we've said about dating for the dynamic versus dating
Speaker 1: for the resume. And so there's this idea of dating experientially,
Speaker 1: what is the experience of being around you versus dating evaluatively,
Speaker 1: dating to see if you're good enough for me?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's almost like you're either testing them or
Speaker 2: you're getting carried away. And what you're saying is that
Speaker 2: the evaluation eight questions allow you to check in on
Speaker 2: yourself and see how do I feel like, how is
Speaker 2: this going? And how is this for real? Is what
Speaker 2: it feels like being together rather than what it feels
Speaker 2: like being with their resume, being with their data, being
Speaker 2: with you know, And so yeah, we're either testing them,
Speaker 2: like are they good enough for me? Are they not?
Speaker 2: Are they good enough for my friends? Or sometimes we're
Speaker 2: just so lost in our own world of like will
Speaker 2: they like me? Do they like me? Right, we're in
Speaker 2: that opposite space. If am I good enough to hesitate.
Speaker 1: It, it's not did I find them attractive? It's did
Speaker 1: I feel attractive around them? I feel like that's such
Speaker 1: a big shift for people. And going back to three,
Speaker 1: miss of the spark, So many times people miss an
Speaker 1: amazing person because they're not sparky and so my antidote
Speaker 1: to the spark is to look for the slow burn,
Speaker 1: and the slow burn is the person who may not
Speaker 1: be initially as charismatic or sparky, but they would be
Speaker 1: an amazing partner long term. I think this is one
Speaker 1: of the greatest contributions I've had to the discourse. Is
Speaker 1: I get so many emails from people that are like,
Speaker 1: I followed what you said, I looked for the slow burn.
Speaker 1: I'm engaged with slow burn, and I'm so happy this
Speaker 1: is the kind of guy I would have overlooked. And
Speaker 1: way to use the post date eight is to do
Speaker 1: it after each date and to see over time do
Speaker 1: I like them more and more? Because the sparky people
Speaker 1: often burn out quickly, and maybe after the third date
Speaker 1: you might say, oh, you know, like it turns out
Speaker 1: he's like a little narcissistic, or we don't really have
Speaker 1: that much to talk about, whereas the slow burn person,
Speaker 1: each time you date them, you were more curious about them,
Speaker 1: you like them more and more. So it's a journaling
Speaker 1: exercise really, to track how you feel with different people
Speaker 1: and if your interest in them grows or decreases over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that approach. I really hope. I really
Speaker 2: really hope everyone's listening and watching applies that I think
Speaker 2: would change everything for them. Logan, I want to go
Speaker 2: a bit more philosophical with you, a bit more like
Speaker 2: high higher level of like how do you define love?
Speaker 1: When you ask the question, I got a really strong
Speaker 1: internal feeling where I just heard the word acceptance, and
Speaker 1: I think it reminds me of what you said about
Speaker 1: you and Roddy, where she really accepts you for who
Speaker 1: you are and you don't feel judgment. And when I
Speaker 1: think about the people that love me, I think about
Speaker 1: my parents, my sister, some of my best friends, my husband,
Speaker 1: my daughter, where it's like you're not under the microscope.
Speaker 1: They're not deciding like do I want to see you
Speaker 1: again or not. They're really just like I love you
Speaker 1: in all your messiness. And I remember one time I
Speaker 1: was talking to my friend Kristen and I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes i'm a little avoidant when I have
Speaker 1: a hard situation. She's like, duh, we all know that,
Speaker 1: and like I got embarrassed, but I was like what
Speaker 1: she's saying is like I see you in your shadow
Speaker 1: and your light, and I love you for all.
Speaker 2: Of those things.
Speaker 1: And I think that acceptance and belonging is really what
Speaker 1: makes us feel safe. And I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I've had the career I've had, which I
Speaker 1: feel really proud of, is because my husband is such
Speaker 1: a rock and I feel so much acceptance from him.
Speaker 1: His love is really unconditional, and like, when you have
Speaker 1: this foundation of unconditional love, like you can go fly
Speaker 1: high and like take a lot of risk and risk
Speaker 1: rejection because like you come home to this really beautiful
Speaker 1: foundation of acceptance. And when people want to find love,
Speaker 1: like I want that for them so badly, because I
Speaker 1: also want them to tuck into their bed at night
Speaker 1: and like have that person that is unconditionally loving them.
Speaker 1: And that's really my wish for so many people.
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful Lonsa. I love that is love enough.
Speaker 1: You need love, but it's not enough, so it's required,
Speaker 1: but it's not the only thing. And what you also
Speaker 1: need is sustained effort. And you know, we're at the
Speaker 1: age where a lot of our friends are having young kids, right,
Speaker 1: And I get so many questions from clients of mine,
Speaker 1: close friends of mine, et cetera, where they're like, I
Speaker 1: just don't feel as connected and one of my mentors,
Speaker 1: Eli Finkel, he has this great book called The All
Speaker 1: or Nothing Marriage, and he talks about different times in
Speaker 1: a relationship, and he has this great word recalibration. So
Speaker 1: sometimes if someone's dealing with a hard situation at work,
Speaker 1: or a difficult moment with their parents, or you know,
Speaker 1: having young kids at home, you have to recalibrate your expectations,
Speaker 1: like maybe it's not going to be the most fun
Speaker 1: year of your marriage. Maybe you're going to have sex
Speaker 1: a little less often, maybe you're going to fight a
Speaker 1: little bit more. So recalibrate your expectations in those hard
Speaker 1: moments instead of like exiting, just understand that it's going
Speaker 1: to be a slightly bumpier ride. And so I think
Speaker 1: that true relationships last through some really hard years, sometimes
Speaker 1: some infidelity, and that love is enough to get you
Speaker 1: into relationship, but it's not enough to keep.
Speaker 2: You in it. I love the recalibration and it's so
Speaker 2: fascinating how we think things should stay the same through
Speaker 2: all this change. Right, most of us want our relationship
Speaker 2: to stay exactly the same, no matter how much change
Speaker 2: we're going through, whether that's moving country, changing job, having
Speaker 2: a child, all these major transitions in life which naturally
Speaker 2: require us to re establish what our connection pattern is,
Speaker 2: what are the amount of time we spend together is
Speaker 2: all of that, And all of a sudden we just
Speaker 2: throw out the window and say, well, if you love me,
Speaker 2: it should be this way, it should be this way
Speaker 2: always and forever. But how would that even be possible.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating that it's perplexing that were that way, But
Speaker 2: it's fascinating too that we think things staying the same
Speaker 2: is a sign of love.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And there's a great behavioral science principle for this,
Speaker 1: this transitive fallacy where we sort of think the way
Speaker 1: that it feels when something changes is the way it'll
Speaker 1: feel forever. So we think that falling in love is
Speaker 1: the same as being in love, but it's totally differ
Speaker 1: It goes back to adaptation, right, We adapt to the
Speaker 1: things around us. So winning the lottery will feel good
Speaker 1: for a certain period of time, and then you know,
Speaker 1: being wealthy is a different state. And so if you're
Speaker 1: in a relationship and it doesn't feel as intense as
Speaker 1: when you first fell in love, that's the natural cycle.
Speaker 1: And if you just keep being a person that breaks
Speaker 1: up and searches for that falling in love again, you're
Speaker 1: sort of missing the bigger picture.
Speaker 2: I lost one of these what makes a good partner?
Speaker 1: I think there's so many things that go into being
Speaker 1: a good partner. So I just talked about love is
Speaker 1: being accepted, So I think accepting your partner. Sometimes people
Speaker 1: are like, do you think people change? And I think
Speaker 1: my answer is sometimes they change, sometimes they don't. But
Speaker 1: you can't be with someone for their potential because what
Speaker 1: if they never change. You need to accept them for
Speaker 1: who they are now, and they probably will change, but
Speaker 1: that's not a guarantee. I think communication. It's a cliche,
Speaker 1: but it's true. There's kind of this joke that like
Speaker 1: the answer to every advice column is always like, have
Speaker 1: a conversation? What should I do with my neighbor who
Speaker 1: plays music? It's like, have a conversation? What should I
Speaker 1: with my mother in law she shows up without being invited?
Speaker 1: Have a conversation? Is like yes, Like conversations are what
Speaker 1: keep relationships alive. Yeah, And going back to chalant dating,
Speaker 1: I saw this stat that was like ninety percent of
Speaker 1: women like what they really want is not to go
Speaker 1: to an expensive restaurant and not how much money the
Speaker 1: guys spent on the date, but really how invested in
Speaker 1: the conversation is he? And so I think communication is
Speaker 1: a huge one. And then I think the growth mindset
Speaker 1: that really encompasses a lot. It's like life changes, you'll change.
Speaker 1: Do we feel like we're a team and we're on
Speaker 1: the same side and we're working together towards the life
Speaker 1: we want, or we adversaries that are in opposite sides
Speaker 1: of the pickleball court and when you win, when you
Speaker 1: win and you go away with your friends, I lose
Speaker 1: because I have to stay home with our kid and
Speaker 1: instead it's like we over me.
Speaker 2: How do you know if you're asking for too much?
Speaker 1: There's a big difference between settling where you feel like
Speaker 1: you have these deal breakers that are really important to
Speaker 1: you and you're not getting them met, and satisficing, which
Speaker 1: is understanding that you should double down on the things
Speaker 1: that matter and compromise on the rest. So let me
Speaker 1: get a little bit more specific. And I actually wanted
Speaker 1: to answer this before when you were talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: the things that matter and don't matter. So as people
Speaker 1: get older, especially and you know, I have this Netflix
Speaker 1: show The Later Daters, and it's Daters over fifty five
Speaker 1: and so like, I have just seen this so much.
Speaker 1: The older you get, the more you add to your
Speaker 1: list because you're like, I've waited this long, she better
Speaker 1: be perfect. And so what happens is we confuse pet
Speaker 1: peeves for deal breakers. So what pet peeve would be
Speaker 1: something like, I'll date anyone except a mouth breather. It's like,
Speaker 1: come on, like mouth breathing that's not correlated with relationships
Speaker 1: satisfaction or not satisfaction. It's like something that maybe annoys you,
Speaker 1: but it's not that big of a deal. Or like
Speaker 1: socks with sandals.
Speaker 2: So it's like, well, even being six foot total, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I could go on a whole tangent about height, which
Speaker 1: is essentially like many women filter out men who are
Speaker 1: six feet you know, they want a man who's six
Speaker 1: feet are taller, but eighty six percent of adult men
Speaker 1: in the US are under six feet. Wow, so you're
Speaker 1: excluding eighty six percent of possible matches over something that
Speaker 1: does not matter for long term relationship satisfaction. And so
Speaker 1: you know, going back to pet peece and deal breakers,
Speaker 1: the first thing I would do is make a list
Speaker 1: of what you think your pet peeves are what you
Speaker 1: think your deal breakers are, what your must haves are,
Speaker 1: and then truly think if I didn't have this thing,
Speaker 1: would it matter long term? So oh, I need a
Speaker 1: guy with a good sense of style. It's like, do
Speaker 1: you can you take him shopping? Like who cares? Versus
Speaker 1: something like I have asthma and I need a non smoker.
Speaker 1: Going back to religion, you know, for you, maybe it
Speaker 1: wasn't just the religion piece, but for some people, if
Speaker 1: they're religious or they want to raise their kids in
Speaker 1: that faith, it is a deal breaker. So kind of
Speaker 1: go through each one and try to move things to
Speaker 1: the pet peeves category, and then when you're dating, go
Speaker 1: really hard on those deal breakers and be true to yourself,
Speaker 1: but be more flexible on the pet peeves because they
Speaker 1: don't matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those icks. Have you ever seen the guy on
Speaker 2: TikTok called Guy with the List? No, okay, so check
Speaker 2: it out. I have no affiliation, but I'm such a fan.
Speaker 2: So what he does is he finds videos of women
Speaker 2: on the internet that say they have an ick or
Speaker 2: they have something they don't like about men, and then
Speaker 2: he adds it to his list to not do that thing.
Speaker 2: So it's so fat it's genius.
Speaker 1: And so I feel like our friend Jared Fried is
Speaker 1: kind of like the king.
Speaker 2: Of the ick? Is it in what sense? Going? I
Speaker 2: love Jared?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: He has so many viral videos where he's like, I
Speaker 1: ask audience members why they rejected a guy, and they
Speaker 1: were like, I really liked him. I was going to
Speaker 1: go home with him, but then he went to pay
Speaker 1: the bill and I heard this is and it's the
Speaker 1: sound of somebody opening a Velker wallet.
Speaker 2: That's so great. Yeah, that's exactly it. These are some
Speaker 2: of these even worse. I haven't I haven't checked.
Speaker 3: I mean to be an alarmist, but it's important to
Speaker 3: stay vigilant. A few weeks ago, I met this guy
Speaker 3: out at a bar. He seemed normal, his friends seemed
Speaker 3: so I went home with him. The next day, I
Speaker 3: was leaving and he said, oh, I'll walk you to
Speaker 3: the train station. I'm leaving as well, and out of nowhere,
Speaker 3: he just nonchalantly grabs his roller blades and a speaker.
Speaker 2: So then what he does is he takes it such
Speaker 2: a good bed. And so his list has everything from
Speaker 2: don't wear goggles, yeah, don't leave an event early, have
Speaker 2: a different font, having a birthdays in it, Like it's just.
Speaker 1: That's so funny.
Speaker 4: I don't like the new it. It's just so random.
Speaker 4: And I know people hate when people do its, and
Speaker 4: it's like, how do we get they that that's so ridiculous.
Speaker 4: I don't know if anyone ever said this one before,
Speaker 4: but like when a lad has a birthday, like what
Speaker 4: do you just be like, oh, happy.
Speaker 1: Birthday, Oh my god. I could literally talk about this
Speaker 1: with you for hours because it's like, of course there's
Speaker 1: like a sense of humor. I mean, first hilarious talk
Speaker 1: is so funny. So many people are so hilarious, like
Speaker 1: that girl nail the delivery of like you know, I
Speaker 1: after rollerblader, a roller skater and like a performative one.
Speaker 1: But like it kind of goes back to the earlier
Speaker 1: part of our conversation around men and like the script
Speaker 1: that they follow, because it's like a lot of women
Speaker 1: are saying I make money, so I don't care as
Speaker 1: much if you make money. I want you to be
Speaker 1: more emotionally available. I want you to be vulnerable. But
Speaker 1: then they also sort of get punished when they are,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's just because we haven't really
Speaker 1: figured out what masculinity looks like in this age, and
Speaker 1: it's like, why is having a birthday embarrassing? Like why
Speaker 1: can't like a thirty two year old guy like throw
Speaker 1: a birthday party? Why would that be cringe? And So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on the ICK,
Speaker 1: but maybe just the one that I'll say is that
Speaker 1: are you using the ick to push people away because
Speaker 1: you're afraid of being in a relationship and it just
Speaker 1: gives you a reason to reject someone and not get
Speaker 1: close to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that statistic on height just blew my mind.
Speaker 2: I did not realize that that you're cutting out eighty
Speaker 2: six percent of adult men. Oh my god, in the
Speaker 2: United States. It's insane.
Speaker 1: The hi thing drives me crazy because, first of all,
Speaker 1: I am married to a short king and I'm very
Speaker 1: happy about it. But also it's like, you know, if
Speaker 1: you were at a bar and you're sitting at a
Speaker 1: stool next to someone and you lock eyes and you
Speaker 1: have an amazing conversation and you talk about your hopes
Speaker 1: and dreams and then the guy stands up and he's
Speaker 1: five eight or five to nine. Are you not going
Speaker 1: to give him your number? No, you are, because you
Speaker 1: had a vibe, you had a connection. But if you
Speaker 1: think about Hinge as kind of your club and your
Speaker 1: filters as the bouncers deciding who gets into your club
Speaker 1: or not. When you set really stringent filters on height, age, distance,
Speaker 1: you're really blocking so many people from coming into your club.
Speaker 1: And then you're going up to people like me and
Speaker 1: you and saying, where's my husband, where's my wife? I
Speaker 1: can't find them. It's like, yeah, cause they're all waiting
Speaker 1: in line. And the bouncer rejected that.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so well said, we have two segments to
Speaker 2: end today's episode with you. We've invented a game for
Speaker 2: you called dis ord that and this is for you,
Speaker 2: so we'll play that one first. This or that someone
Speaker 2: who loves you more or someone you love more.
Speaker 1: I think I want to love them a lot, but
Speaker 1: it's okay if they love me a little bit.
Speaker 2: More than I love them, Okay. Marry your best friend
Speaker 2: or someone you feel wild passionate for.
Speaker 1: Ideal, like for a lot of eas I'm like ideally both,
Speaker 1: but it's like I think the best friendship is going
Speaker 1: to last longer, but like you need to want to
Speaker 1: have sex with them, So I would say best friend,
Speaker 1: but want to have sex, and like most people don't
Speaker 1: marry the person they had the best sex within their life,
Speaker 1: Like the most passionate relationship is sometimes because there's a
Speaker 1: little bit of like will she or won't she? And
Speaker 1: I would say if you're looking for like long term partnership,
Speaker 1: like best friend is like a safer bet.
Speaker 2: Yep, good answers, all right, stay in a good enough
Speaker 2: relationship or risk being single for a long time waiting
Speaker 2: for great.
Speaker 1: Sorry to be so like, but I think it matters
Speaker 1: who you are. If you're a person who often leaves
Speaker 1: relationships what I call a ditcher because you're a maximiz
Speaker 1: when you're looking for something better than I would say, like,
Speaker 1: invest in that reallyationship and make it great. But if
Speaker 1: you're a person that really settles and like always kind
Speaker 1: of accepts the crumbs, then see what it's like to
Speaker 1: be single and really go after the whole cookie.
Speaker 2: Your answer is great, So yeah, I'm happy with what
Speaker 2: you're doing. Shared life goals, but mismatched love languages or
Speaker 2: perfect love languages match, but different visions for the future.
Speaker 1: I think love languages are kind of ridiculous and overrated,
Speaker 1: Like they help people, and I think they're useful as
Speaker 1: something to point to, but like they're not scientifically backed. Like,
Speaker 1: let's just talk about what love languages are, because like
Speaker 1: they've kind of become so pervasive in our culture with
Speaker 1: people wearing shirts that say like taco is my love language.
Speaker 1: So the love language is your preferred way of receiving love,
Speaker 1: and so it kind of helps you say to your husband,
Speaker 1: I don't care about gifts. I care about quality time.
Speaker 1: Like for me, for Christmas, my husband said, like, make
Speaker 1: a list of what you want, and I asked him
Speaker 1: for five conversations that were each two hours. And I
Speaker 1: know it's like sounds so crazy, but like it that's
Speaker 1: what I wanted. I was like, I want a conversation
Speaker 1: about our housing for the future. I want a conversation
Speaker 1: around my health. I want a conversation around parenting. And
Speaker 1: like maybe it sounds silly and people would be like,
Speaker 1: why did you have to ask for that. It's like
Speaker 1: cause we're parents of a young kid and we work
Speaker 1: a lot at my husband commute. It's like we don't
Speaker 1: have two hour quality time conversations all the time, Like
Speaker 1: we don't even have them that often, and so what
Speaker 1: I wanted was to have that quality time.
Speaker 2: I didn't want.
Speaker 1: Gifts, and so love languages are a helpful way to
Speaker 1: kind of show what matters to you. But like, you
Speaker 1: don't have to have aligned love languages like one hundred percent,
Speaker 1: like shared vision for the future matters much more than
Speaker 1: this thing that is kind of a shortcut to say,
Speaker 1: like this is what makes me feel valued.
Speaker 2: I just want to underline what you just said as
Speaker 2: well that I actually think you do have to ask
Speaker 2: and set aside time for very important conversations, especially when
Speaker 2: you've been together for a long time, because your day
Speaker 2: to day becomes your conversation and it give me great connection,
Speaker 2: and you can be having fun every day, but you
Speaker 2: almost don't ever sit down and do that fun call
Speaker 2: a conversation that you did when you started dating, or
Speaker 2: you don't do that three hours dinner when you're with someone,
Speaker 2: And so I think I fully agree with you on
Speaker 2: having to outline and ask for specific conversations, especially if
Speaker 2: it's really important to you and it's not something that
Speaker 2: you're just willing to also just throw into someone When
Speaker 2: you both just got back from work, put your baby
Speaker 2: to bed, and you're both exhausted, it's not possible to
Speaker 2: go on that Thursday night and say, hey, can we
Speaker 2: just talk about the finances tonight? Like that's going to
Speaker 2: maybe throw the other person off as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have to say, like that was a
Speaker 1: great gift, And some of my friends have like copied it,
Speaker 1: They've asked their partners for that for their birthday. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, I think this could be a thing because
Speaker 1: it's like it's awkward to say, can we spend ninety
Speaker 1: minutes talking about my health? And can I like talk
Speaker 1: to you about my orr ring and this and that?
Speaker 1: But like I want that time and that's what I
Speaker 1: as a busy parent, as a mom, like that's what
Speaker 1: I was looking for. And I feel like that was
Speaker 1: so much more enriching to me than like, you know,
Speaker 1: some red light mask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, last one of these. Date someone who feels
Speaker 2: safe but doesn't challenge you, or date someone who challenges
Speaker 2: you but sometimes triggers you. Hmmm.
Speaker 1: I think you have to feel safe, like that is
Speaker 1: a must have because someone should really feel like home,
Speaker 1: they should feel like that foundation, so you need it.
Speaker 1: I think trigger kind of going back to like boundaries
Speaker 1: and self care, it just kind of become like a
Speaker 1: little bit overblown in our culture. So I would say, like,
Speaker 1: investigate that more. What does trigger you mean? Does it
Speaker 1: mean that like sometimes they challenge you, or does it
Speaker 1: mean like that they don't respect you, or that they
Speaker 1: remind you of like an abusive relationship you're in. So
Speaker 1: I would say safety and foundation is like a must have,
Speaker 1: but then investigate is this healthy discomfort or is this
Speaker 1: unhealthy discomfort?
Speaker 2: Logan, You've been amazing to talk to. I've learned so much.
Speaker 2: I think our audience is going to get so much
Speaker 2: value from this. I'm so excited for everyone to go
Speaker 2: to logan uri dot com then actually take the quiz
Speaker 2: so that they can figure out where they land. I
Speaker 2: think doing the quiz myself and even breaking it down
Speaker 2: with you today, and I kept in the interview everyone
Speaker 2: will hear me keep getting well. That sounds like exercise rates.
Speaker 2: It's so usable in everyday life, and I think it's
Speaker 2: going to help people really recognize what's blocking them at
Speaker 2: the root, rather than just hey, you're just distracted or
Speaker 2: whatever it may be. We end every episode of On
Speaker 2: Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be
Speaker 2: answered in one word or one sentence maximum one sentence
Speaker 2: most likely, so logan Uri. These are your final five.
Speaker 2: The first question is what is the best love advice
Speaker 2: You've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: The best love advice I've ever heard or received is
Speaker 1: love is a verb.
Speaker 2: It's a good answer. I agreed. What is the worst
Speaker 2: love advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: The worst love advice that I've heard, this is really
Speaker 1: big on Reddit, is when people have very strict rules
Speaker 1: where it's like, if he asks this question, never see
Speaker 1: him again. If he doesn't pay, never see him again.
Speaker 1: So I think the worst love advice is when you
Speaker 1: have really strict rules that are not based in like
Speaker 1: the research or science of what actually matters in dating.
Speaker 2: It's a great answer. Question number three, is love blind? No?
Speaker 2: Do you want to? You can explain.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think nine seasons of the show has
Speaker 1: shown us that love is not blind.
Speaker 2: It's a great answer for sure. Question number four, what's
Speaker 2: something you used to believe was true about love but
Speaker 2: now you actually realize it isn't.
Speaker 1: I think I'll go back to what we talked about
Speaker 1: with timing, which is I used to believe that love
Speaker 1: to sort of overcome any timing, and now I believe
Speaker 1: that timing is a big element of whether or not
Speaker 1: you're the right fit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's such a It's weird, isn't it, Because
Speaker 2: time is such a funny one because it's almost like
Speaker 2: we're waiting for the perfect time, which I don't think
Speaker 2: is what you're saying, But you're saying the timing of
Speaker 2: where your life is right now is going to let
Speaker 2: you know whether you'll find That's a.
Speaker 1: Really good point. So I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: are hesitators where they're waiting to be the perfect person,
Speaker 1: when the truth is you'll never be one hundred percent ready.
Speaker 1: So I'm not talking about that like date before you're ready.
Speaker 1: What I I'm talking about is if you meet someone amazing,
Speaker 1: but your lifestyles don't line up right now, or they
Speaker 1: are in the military and you want to have a
Speaker 1: kid right away, or like all these different situations, it's
Speaker 1: like right person, wrong time is probably wrong person.
Speaker 2: Fifth and final question We asked this every guest who's
Speaker 2: ever been on the show. If you could create one
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
Speaker 2: would it be?
Speaker 1: Tell the truth? I think just so often we don't
Speaker 1: tell people how we're feeling. We don't share hard feedback,
Speaker 1: we're not brave and look like there is a time
Speaker 1: and a place for white lives, such as you know,
Speaker 1: when you ask your husband how you look five minutes
Speaker 1: before you're going to his work office party, which my
Speaker 1: husband hasn't gotten the memo on that. But I think
Speaker 1: if we were just all more honest about what we're feeling,
Speaker 1: what we're worrying about, what's going through our mind, we
Speaker 1: would just have much richer relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in relationship with especially, I mean you're
Speaker 2: talking about first dates and dinners. And I remember the
Speaker 2: first time I took Radiau. I thought she liked fancy places.
Speaker 2: I took her some. I couldn't even afford a fancy place,
Speaker 2: but I'd saved up and took her out to this
Speaker 2: fancy place. And she literally from the moment we walked in,
Speaker 2: I could tell she wasn't enjoying the experience. And I
Speaker 2: was kind of like, this's a nice place, you know whatever,
Speaker 2: And she just said to me, she goes, you know,
Speaker 2: my ideal day is not being at a fancy restaurant.
Speaker 2: It's being at Tesco's, which is our version of Walmart
Speaker 2: or Target or whatever. And she was like buying some
Speaker 2: bread and cheese, and making some sandwiches like that would
Speaker 2: be my ideal day. And I was like, got it,
Speaker 2: Like I understood it, and like I think the next
Speaker 2: day we like literally went down and walked down the
Speaker 2: grocery al and bought bread and cheese and went And
Speaker 2: it was just to me, it was so useful to
Speaker 2: have that early on because I knew I liked RUDDI
Speaker 2: I didn't care whether we were at a fancy restaurant
Speaker 2: or not. And I think if she hadn't told me that,
Speaker 2: because she was like, oh my god, maybe I'm going
Speaker 2: to turn him off, maybe I'm going to scare him.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I'm you know it's And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: if I did, then I was just the wrong guy.
Speaker 2: Like it was to me, it felt like a fair
Speaker 2: thing to say you're allowed to like different things or
Speaker 2: tell me what you like. We're getting to know each other.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that honesty piece is so important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think about some of the richest
Speaker 1: relationships in my life. So there's a woman Kimberly I've
Speaker 1: been working with for the last six years, and I
Speaker 1: know that if I give her feedback, she will always say, oh,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I'm going to work on that.
Speaker 1: And it's a cliche, but it's true. Like feedback is
Speaker 1: a gift because you're making someone aware of a blind
Speaker 1: spot and then they have the opportunity to improve. And
Speaker 1: like I don't walk on eggshells with her because I
Speaker 1: know that we can talk through any situation. Or my
Speaker 1: friend Ellen is obsessed with feedback and she's so good
Speaker 1: at receiving it. And I remember one time for guess
Speaker 1: it was for Father's Day, Like the gift that I
Speaker 1: gave my husband because he loves the New York Times
Speaker 1: crossword is that like Ellen and her husband Niehark, came
Speaker 1: over and we all did the New York Times Sunday
Speaker 1: or I guess a Saturday crossword like like on our
Speaker 1: projector and like every time I would throw out a word,
Speaker 1: Ellen would say, I mean, now I'm like throwing her
Speaker 1: under the bus. But she was sort of like that's
Speaker 1: not even the right number of letters and this and that,
Speaker 1: and I told her later, I was like, I'm not
Speaker 1: that good at crosswords, but I was just kind of
Speaker 1: having fun and you kind of like embarrass me where
Speaker 1: I didn't want to participate, and she was like, wow,
Speaker 1: thank you, so much for telling me that, like I know,
Speaker 1: I have a competitive streak, and like the way she
Speaker 1: received it, where she was like truly so grateful for it.
Speaker 1: I just felt much closer to her. And I think
Speaker 1: that when you're honest with someone and they receive that
Speaker 1: as a gift and not with defensiveness, it just makes
Speaker 1: you feel like you can go deeper and deeper with that.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people are afraid of
Speaker 1: the truth and afraid of rejection when it's really like,
Speaker 1: being honest with someone is a way to get more
Speaker 1: intimate logan Uri. The book is called How to Not
Speaker 1: Die Alone logannuri dot com. For the quiz, please please
Speaker 1: go and do the quiz. You'll get your results. You'll
Speaker 1: be able to learn so much more about what's been
Speaker 1: blocking you in dating. You'll also be able to strike
Speaker 1: up a conversation with friends who are going through similar things.
Speaker 1: So I really hope you check it out. Logan Is
Speaker 1: there anything else you'd like to share, any inside advice
Speaker 1: or anyway you'd like people to find you more? Check
Speaker 1: out the Netflix show it's called The Later Daters, and
Speaker 1: I also offer coaching and matchmaking and there's a lot
Speaker 1: more great info on my site.
Speaker 2: I am going to be sending a lot of people
Speaker 2: matt making your way. I'm so glad we finally met. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Jay, this was even better than I expected, and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate all the work and good vibes you put
Speaker 1: out into the world.
Speaker 2: Thank you, you the best. This is awesome. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you're going to love my
Speaker 2: conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your
Speaker 2: ex and find true love in your relationships.
Speaker 4: Make a list of the things that are truly important
Speaker 4: for you to find in a partner, and then be
Speaker 4: that list