Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. I am sitting across from the one and
Speaker 1: Only and my dear friend, the most wonderful person, Shawna Rhymes,
Speaker 1: And we are here talking about adoption. It is Adoption
Speaker 1: Awareness Month. Yeah, and Shanna has to experiences adopting. Um,
Speaker 1: did you know from the time you like, how long
Speaker 1: did you know you wanted to? Like, was it something
Speaker 1: that just you knew right away you wanted to do
Speaker 1: or was it over years? I think I always knew
Speaker 1: I wanted to adopt, Like I've always known that I
Speaker 1: was going to adopt children. The idea that, um, I
Speaker 1: would grow something inside me and it would come out
Speaker 1: was never a thing that sounded exciting to me. It's not.
Speaker 1: And also, I think you know, I was a huge
Speaker 1: reader as a kid, and in every children's book you
Speaker 1: ever read, there's always an orphan and so somehow to me,
Speaker 1: like adoption always seemed like a thing I knew I
Speaker 1: was going to do. Then um I got older and
Speaker 1: then illogically adopted became a thing I really needed to do.
Speaker 1: So and it was lucky that it didn't phase me
Speaker 1: at all. I was kind of like relieved, like like
Speaker 1: this always made sense to and I was like the
Speaker 1: universe is just falling into place um and then on
Speaker 1: top of which, when I knew it was the right
Speaker 1: time to adopt was it was. I went to like
Speaker 1: I was a writer, and I was sort of I
Speaker 1: don't know, you're like in your I was in my
Speaker 1: early thirties and I had done broken up with somebody,
Speaker 1: and I was doing that thing where you're like really
Speaker 1: into yourself amazing hard. And I rented a like a
Speaker 1: small house in Vermont, like on like Airbnb, but there
Speaker 1: was no Airbnb back then, but like that version of something,
Speaker 1: and flew to Vermont and like drove like through the
Speaker 1: night to this lovely little place by myself, and I
Speaker 1: was going to write for a month and like find myself.
Speaker 1: I had been reading a lot of Alice Walker. And
Speaker 1: the next day eleven happened, and so I was trapped
Speaker 1: in the middle. Basically, I was trapped in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere. Nobody I knew, while it felt like the
Speaker 1: world was ending, and I was super panicked and just
Speaker 1: watching like hour after hour of like what was the
Speaker 1: most traumatic stature. And I remember thinking to myself on
Speaker 1: on that day, like, oh my god, the world's gonna
Speaker 1: end and I will have never been a mom, like
Speaker 1: I've never had a baby. I will have never done
Speaker 1: the thing that I've always really just felt strongly about
Speaker 1: wanting to do. And it was surprising to me that
Speaker 1: that was the thing that was at the top of
Speaker 1: my list of like this. It wasn't a career thing,
Speaker 1: or it wasn't a career thing. It wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 1: a guy, it wasn't a I want to travel the world.
Speaker 1: It was it was I will never never had a daughter.
Speaker 1: And so I went home and I hired an adoption
Speaker 1: attorney and literally nine months and two days after eleven,
Speaker 1: Harper was born. What, oh my gosh, I just got
Speaker 1: goose bumps, like serious goose bumps. So was it a
Speaker 1: public adoption a private adoption? Had you do? Were you
Speaker 1: around people who had adopted before that could help you
Speaker 1: give advice or was it like you googled an adoption
Speaker 1: at like I have to say it, Okay, it was
Speaker 1: a private adoption. And not only wasn't EYE around anybody
Speaker 1: who had adopted before. I was the only person I knew.
Speaker 1: I mean I was thirty two. Yeah, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: did any of your friends even have babies? Because like,
Speaker 1: I was the only person I knew who had a baby,
Speaker 1: Like my friends were still going out to the clubs,
Speaker 1: Like I was literally the only person knew had a baby,
Speaker 1: and I was the only single mom I lost. Basically,
Speaker 1: I feel like some people were like, you lost your mind,
Speaker 1: but it felt completely right and completely normal. And my
Speaker 1: friends at thirty two had given me a call saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: guess what. I figured out what I'm gonna do after
Speaker 1: sitting in this cottage in Vermont by myself. I'm going
Speaker 1: to adopt a baby by myself. I would be like, no,
Speaker 1: you're not, Like that's insane. I think all of my
Speaker 1: friends thought I had lost my mind, but they were
Speaker 1: all very like, Okay, I guess this is happening, you know,
Speaker 1: but they thought I was bonkers. It was it just
Speaker 1: didn't mesh with anybody's lifestyle. But you had a real
Speaker 1: feeling like in your gut, and Olivia Pope like gut
Speaker 1: you knew what you knew. My gut told me everything
Speaker 1: I needed to know, and it did not feel wrong
Speaker 1: at all. So how did you find an adoption attorney? Um?
Speaker 1: I asked around, like I had you know, if you're
Speaker 1: a writer in this town, you have an attorney. I
Speaker 1: asked my attorney to like go out into the attorney
Speaker 1: world and ask who adoption attorneys were. I knew, like
Speaker 1: I've done enough reading. Um, if you were going to adopt,
Speaker 1: I highly recommend that you read this book by Dan Savage.
Speaker 1: Dan Savages book The Kid is my favorite book about
Speaker 1: adoption ever, just because it's so honest and irreverent and raw.
Speaker 1: And it was the first book I read that felt
Speaker 1: like somebody, like you know, somebody with a dark and
Speaker 1: twisty mind was adopting a kid versus yeah, versus like
Speaker 1: somebody who like should be in good housekeeping, which I
Speaker 1: never was gonna be. Um, what kind of questions did
Speaker 1: you like when you knew that you were going to
Speaker 1: adopt a baby? Did you know what he or she
Speaker 1: looked like? Oh, you said daughter, so you knew it
Speaker 1: was going to be a girl. Did you also find
Speaker 1: yourself very selective as far as what that you knew
Speaker 1: you wanted to be a little girl of color, that
Speaker 1: you wanted to be a certain age. So so when
Speaker 1: I so I found this adoption attorney and I did
Speaker 1: that over an agency just because I had read a
Speaker 1: little bit and it seemed like an attorney made sense.
Speaker 1: In this state, every law has every state has different laws,
Speaker 1: um and every state it works differently, like some states
Speaker 1: agencies are better in some states. Whatever. So I found
Speaker 1: my adoption attorney and he basically said to me, you
Speaker 1: need to be really clear about what you want, like
Speaker 1: and that sounded so weird, like suddenly you feel like
Speaker 1: you're shopping for a person. It's like that. It feels
Speaker 1: kind of gross. But he was really clear, he said,
Speaker 1: the clearer you are about what you want, I mean,
Speaker 1: you can say to me that I'm super open, and
Speaker 1: that's fine, But if you're really specific about what it
Speaker 1: is that's important to you, then what is in your
Speaker 1: head I can put in your arms. So and that
Speaker 1: made sense because think about this idea of for a
Speaker 1: lot of people, and I off this for a lot
Speaker 1: of people, they have dreamed of like making a baby
Speaker 1: their entire lives, of being pregnant, of having a child
Speaker 1: that's biologically linked to them, and then they have to
Speaker 1: deal with that grief and that loss of not being
Speaker 1: able to do that. And then once they've dealt with that,
Speaker 1: now they have this image in their head of what
Speaker 1: they always thought their child was going to be like
Speaker 1: and then to have a child put in their arms
Speaker 1: that is nothing like their imagination. For a lot of
Speaker 1: people that it's very in congress and maybe doesn't work. Um. Plus,
Speaker 1: let's be frank people have biases. People just do, and
Speaker 1: I frankly do not want a child of color placed
Speaker 1: in the arms of somebody who has a bias. Good
Speaker 1: But for me, you know, he was like, you know,
Speaker 1: what are you looking for? I knew that I wanted
Speaker 1: a girl, and I wanted a girl because I was
Speaker 1: a single I knew I was gonna be a single mom,
Speaker 1: and if I was going to be a single mom,
Speaker 1: I just felt strongly. While I also believe it's the
Speaker 1: feminist job to raise sons, I felt like as a
Speaker 1: single mom, I really wanted I didn't. I was like,
Speaker 1: I know, I know how to teach a young woman,
Speaker 1: how to you know, a girl how to be a
Speaker 1: young woman. I don't know if I'd know how to
Speaker 1: teach a little boy how to be a man. When
Speaker 1: I was just hysterical when I found out that I
Speaker 1: was having a boy, and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: the worst. Like, I mean, I love him, but I
Speaker 1: was horrified. I mean, I'm just so scared about raising
Speaker 1: a feminist man in this world. I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: any guy you put out into the world's going to
Speaker 1: be fantastic. Okay, So you knew you wanted a girl
Speaker 1: that made sense to you. Yes, I knew I wanted
Speaker 1: a girl, And then I knew I wanted an African
Speaker 1: American black. I don't know how, but I knew I
Speaker 1: wanted a brown skinned child who looked like me in
Speaker 1: the sense of I wanted her to be as dark
Speaker 1: as me. I wanted her to be darker. I didn't care,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to make sure that when we were
Speaker 1: out in public, you know, our skin looked like she
Speaker 1: could look at my face and see herself in some way. Um.
Speaker 1: I just think that's important. And I also just felt
Speaker 1: like this idea that, um, there's a there's a whole
Speaker 1: colorism thing that happens in this country where people prefer
Speaker 1: lighter skinned babies, and I was like, that didn't even
Speaker 1: occur to me. I just wanted a brown skinned baby.
Speaker 1: What about baby versus? Did you know that you wanted
Speaker 1: a baby you were on this journey for in your
Speaker 1: mind you had set you knew you wanted a baby. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the one thing I can be absolutely sure.
Speaker 1: I was like, there's this like weird baby fever thing
Speaker 1: that overtakes you once to decide you want a kid.
Speaker 1: And you know what I'm talking. Were like I would
Speaker 1: see babies in the grocery store and think like if
Speaker 1: I just picked that baby up, and just like right,
Speaker 1: I have it so bad right now for not even
Speaker 1: only my baby, like my baby is not around me
Speaker 1: or something that I see a baby. There was a
Speaker 1: baby on the plane yesterday and I was in New
Speaker 1: York and I was like, excuse me, do you mind
Speaker 1: if I just hold and smell your baby, like for
Speaker 1: good five minutes. It's like an addiction. It's bad. Baby
Speaker 1: fever is a real thing. Um. And my sister had
Speaker 1: just had some you know, had babies, and I was
Speaker 1: just like they just like they were turning three, and
Speaker 1: I was like I was missing the baby. I wanted
Speaker 1: a baby. Yeah, did you, um, did you prepare? Did
Speaker 1: you have a baby's room ready? Were you registered? Or
Speaker 1: did you feel like I don't even care about this stuff,
Speaker 1: I'm too nervous. How did you feel? Um? I by
Speaker 1: the way people respond this way, whether or not it's
Speaker 1: biological or adopted, like I know people who you know.
Speaker 1: My mom was like, don't don't you dare make a
Speaker 1: baby's room until that baby's out because it's super you know, superstitious.
Speaker 1: And the first time around, um, and I do know this,
Speaker 1: I feel like everybody, it doesn't matter if you're pregnant
Speaker 1: or amisurrogate or we're adopting. Everybody has different plants. The
Speaker 1: first time around, I decorated the most beautiful babies room
Speaker 1: you've ever seen in your entire life. Um, and it was.
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinarily gorgeous baby's room and with every single
Speaker 1: thing in it in the world and it was spectacular. Um.
Speaker 1: And then I came home with that baby. Yeah. This, Yes,
Speaker 1: that happened. So the second and then it all worked
Speaker 1: out in the end, like I came home with that
Speaker 1: baby and then I went back to get the baby.
Speaker 1: But it but it was it was the lesson of
Speaker 1: a lifetime. Yeah, and it was probably the worst thing
Speaker 1: that's ever happened to me in my entire life. So
Speaker 1: the second time around, with my second child, I did nothing.
Speaker 1: Like I had a room like literally there was like
Speaker 1: a starkly empty room with This is how women kind
Speaker 1: of protect themselves. I mean, once you've gone through something
Speaker 1: like that, did you have was it hard for you
Speaker 1: to pick yourself back up? And we've talked about this
Speaker 1: a little bit with adoption. Just it is your cautiously
Speaker 1: optimistic the whole time. It's really scary, you know what
Speaker 1: it is. And I think for me, I was I've
Speaker 1: always been this person who I was always I really
Speaker 1: like bonded with the concept of a birth month and
Speaker 1: like what somebody else is going through and what somebody
Speaker 1: else is feeling, because you know, this is as much
Speaker 1: somebody else's journey as it is yours, you know. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people are busy thinking about like
Speaker 1: what's happening to me? What's happening to me? This is
Speaker 1: I'm getting a baby. One of the things that I
Speaker 1: have a lot of friends now who are who adopt,
Speaker 1: and one of the things I always tell them is like,
Speaker 1: it is not your baby, Like you are only going
Speaker 1: to the hospital to see if maybe this could possibly
Speaker 1: be your baby. That's a great change, Like this is
Speaker 1: maybe possibly your baby, but this is not your baby.
Speaker 1: And when you go to the hospital and when you're there,
Speaker 1: I don't care how excited you might be feeling it.
Speaker 1: This is not your baby. You're going to be with
Speaker 1: somebody else who's in crisis, who is having a baby
Speaker 1: and having their own experience, and nobody tells you that,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? So yeah, so the
Speaker 1: first time around was a really i opening, like emotional
Speaker 1: experience for me and for the birth mom. And to have,
Speaker 1: you know, to to have somebody in like the laws
Speaker 1: of like that state, like we have to make a
Speaker 1: decision like right away. To have to make a decision
Speaker 1: like that, like twenty four hours after you've had you've
Speaker 1: had a baby, He's crazy. And so I absolutely get
Speaker 1: why she was like changed my mind not doing this
Speaker 1: um and then like I ended up like literally like
Speaker 1: just and by the way, this is another piece of
Speaker 1: advice I give people. Don't pick your baby up by yourself.
Speaker 1: Don't feel pick your baby up by yourself. People, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you need a support network, you need this, Like right
Speaker 1: it was, I mean I was this night. I literally
Speaker 1: was like I'm decorating a nursery. I'm gonna go pick
Speaker 1: up my baby. I'll be home tomorrow. Like it was
Speaker 1: so like me and my baby were about to take well.
Speaker 1: I was also like I'm a single mother, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do this. It's gonna be me and the baby. It
Speaker 1: was the dummest thing in the world because then when
Speaker 1: you're in the weird devastation mode, you're like, how do
Speaker 1: I have to go to the airport and find a
Speaker 1: way to get home and figure this whole thing out? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And so I got home and then there's you're staring
Speaker 1: at the nursery and then luckily, twenty four hours later,
Speaker 1: I'm getting back on a plane to go back and
Speaker 1: pick her up again, which was amazing. But still it
Speaker 1: was like up down, up, down, up down, an emotional
Speaker 1: whirlwind and it was definitely meant to be. And what
Speaker 1: I love about it is I can say to my daughter, like,
Speaker 1: you know, your birth mother really really made struggled and
Speaker 1: made the you know, worked hard on that decision, and
Speaker 1: decision was very stressful for her. But yeah, dying to
Speaker 1: know since what's so cool about having harper Um and
Speaker 1: Emerson is like, I'm curious to know how you tell
Speaker 1: them and talk to them about adoption. And the conversations
Speaker 1: are interesting because I have uh sixteen year old who's adopting.
Speaker 1: I have a six year old who's adopted, and I
Speaker 1: have a five year old who's born to be a surrogate,
Speaker 1: who's but is biologically my child. So I'm actually you're
Speaker 1: the master storyteller and vocabulary person, so I'm curing how
Speaker 1: you talk. I mean, I would be at a loss.
Speaker 1: I've done really well with the adoption thing. And one
Speaker 1: of the things I did with starting with Harper was
Speaker 1: from like the day I brought her home, I was
Speaker 1: like telling the adoption story, like I was working on
Speaker 1: the adoption language, so that from the time she was young.
Speaker 1: It was never like, oh, you're thirteen, now you can understand.
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to tell you. I was putting her
Speaker 1: in her career at night and going like I'm so
Speaker 1: glad we got adopted, or aren't we lucky? You know
Speaker 1: some like we adopted each other, Like I was doing
Speaker 1: that from the so that because you sound really dorky
Speaker 1: and nervous saying things like that, it's like talking to
Speaker 1: your kid about sex or something. It just sound dorky
Speaker 1: and nervous like saying these words in the beginning. But
Speaker 1: by the time she was three, you said it all
Speaker 1: the time. It was nothing I said. It's so much
Speaker 1: that it was just like second nature. It's just here,
Speaker 1: and I sounded really comfortable and felt really comfortable saying
Speaker 1: and it wasn't awkward for me, and it wasn't awkward
Speaker 1: for her so much so that she'd heard it so
Speaker 1: much that she was like, yeah, yeah, whatever, this is brilliant.
Speaker 1: I think this is so great. And I remember she danced.
Speaker 1: She was she was at dance class, and she ran
Speaker 1: into dance class one day and she was like maybe five,
Speaker 1: and she looked at the dance teacher and she said,
Speaker 1: I'm adopted, like it had just occurred to her, like
Speaker 1: what it meant. But she said it was such joy
Speaker 1: and her dance teacher looked at her and goes, I know,
Speaker 1: and then she like high fived her and then went
Speaker 1: on and like that was kind of her moment of
Speaker 1: like understanding what these sentences had meant her whole life,
Speaker 1: and she had always heard and now maybe she was
Speaker 1: really comprehending with the word at night. And So I've
Speaker 1: been playing with this idea of you answer the questions
Speaker 1: they ask, but also just make it a fact of life.
Speaker 1: So I did that with Emerson, and I did that
Speaker 1: with Harper, and then one day Emerson and Beckett and
Speaker 1: I and we're in bed reading and Beckett said, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad we got adopted. And I realized that I've
Speaker 1: maybe missed a step. So Becket's the baby and she's
Speaker 1: not adopted. I realized I missed a step. And I
Speaker 1: suddenly realized I had not quite figured out how to
Speaker 1: explain and how this egg because we you know, all
Speaker 1: of these all grown in somebody else's tummies, and you've
Speaker 1: all you know what I mean, and you're all then
Speaker 1: you all came home and it's it's but it's not
Speaker 1: the same, and we all have the same picture with
Speaker 1: the adoption attorney, with the adoption judge. The courts are
Speaker 1: from the courthouse that day when they're the adoption was official.
Speaker 1: Even I even have one with with the judge because
Speaker 1: of Becket, because I was like, we have to take
Speaker 1: one with the surrogate. But it's all it's all vague
Speaker 1: to her. And I was like, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to explain this one yet, so I'm working on it.
Speaker 1: She's so, how old is she? No, she's four, and
Speaker 1: I'm always out of five. I'm always like, we got surrogated.
Speaker 1: She's like, I don't know what that is, and I'm
Speaker 1: like I don't know either. Can you talk me through
Speaker 1: the first couple weeks and months when you had Harper
Speaker 1: and when you had like did you get her and
Speaker 1: finally and bring her home this and you completely flipped out,
Speaker 1: lost your mind? Did it fit perfectly? Were you like
Speaker 1: calling all of your clubbing friends and you were like,
Speaker 1: what was it? Like? It's funny? Okay, So yes, I
Speaker 1: mean I think when when Harper came home. No, I
Speaker 1: don't think I flipped out at all. Actually, I think
Speaker 1: I was exhausted. Um. I think I was wildly naive
Speaker 1: about what having a baby was like, even though I'm
Speaker 1: the youngest of six and all my filings said babies.
Speaker 1: I was wildly naive about what having a baby was like.
Speaker 1: And I had like a movie do that I was
Speaker 1: supposed to be writing that like it was crazy. But
Speaker 1: I also feel like I was like so excited to
Speaker 1: be a mom and so excited to be there, and
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be doing it. I was fine.
Speaker 1: What I think is interesting is people always ask me,
Speaker 1: or they don't ask me, and they kind of want
Speaker 1: to ask, like does it feel different? Like you have
Speaker 1: like questions you have like a biological kid and you
Speaker 1: have to it not at all, like in a weird way.
Speaker 1: What's cool is you can really, you can really speak
Speaker 1: on this because you have I mean, Beckett looks like you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, and she looks like the spitting
Speaker 1: image of you to me. Um. And so when people
Speaker 1: are saying, oh that biological thing, like you look at
Speaker 1: your baby's eyes and you see yourself, Like, do you
Speaker 1: feel did it feel different at first? No? It really didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean it truly didn't. And it's interesting how much
Speaker 1: it didn't. Like Harper and I were like this little
Speaker 1: team forever, and so we were like we were super bonded.
Speaker 1: It was just her and I and it never that
Speaker 1: was never a thing that I felt like. I didn't
Speaker 1: I looked into her eyes and we weren't reflected in
Speaker 1: one another. And then Emerson and I were super bonded,
Speaker 1: like I brought her to work with me every day
Speaker 1: and she would sit in the writer's room and I
Speaker 1: was like, she's like somehow she was like my emotional
Speaker 1: soul mate in some deep way. Like I was like,
Speaker 1: she's got the soul of a writer and her like
Speaker 1: we were that way. Beckett, it was, it was the same.
Speaker 1: It was actually in a lot of ways. I was like,
Speaker 1: this girl's complicated, like she was. She was the baby
Speaker 1: that like to cry a lot, and so I was like,
Speaker 1: this is a complicated kid. Well you know what's interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know my my my son is I
Speaker 1: pushed him out, but when I brought him home, I
Speaker 1: kept saying to Addam for like six weeks, like I
Speaker 1: don't feel any I feel like he is a complete
Speaker 1: stranger to me. Like I had the hardest time, Like
Speaker 1: I'm looking at him and I know I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: feel a certain way or I'm supposed to feel this
Speaker 1: like bond in a connection he's my son, but I
Speaker 1: did not feel that at all. I mean, I was like,
Speaker 1: who is this stranger in my house? And why have
Speaker 1: you messed up my life? Like it's like this is
Speaker 1: not so. I think it's just I think it's different
Speaker 1: for each person. Like I just think, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think people like to take things that happen and
Speaker 1: attribute them to the nearest possible difference, do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like I have a friend who attributes
Speaker 1: everything in her life that doesn't work out to the
Speaker 1: fact that like I grew up without a dad, like
Speaker 1: she always says that, I'm like, that's not because you
Speaker 1: grew up without a dad, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Or or like if you didn't feel a bond and
Speaker 1: you had adopted, you might have think like it because adopted.
Speaker 1: But no, like you had to know where that baby
Speaker 1: came from. You had a baby, and you you had
Speaker 1: that feeling which and I brought home m Harper and
Speaker 1: it was like you felt she always been there and
Speaker 1: we were like deeply connected. So it is very It's
Speaker 1: fascinating how that happens. It's not about anything. It's just
Speaker 1: you and your hormonal like experience and reaction to things. Um.
Speaker 1: We talk a lot on Katie's Crib about the village
Speaker 1: and support system that people have. Did you find it
Speaker 1: difficult being matched with a birth mom because you were
Speaker 1: a single mom? Like we talked about it, was it
Speaker 1: hard for me to find it like great? No, and
Speaker 1: this is I mean fifteen years sixteen years ago. No, Well,
Speaker 1: hopingably it's easier now. There were two two things, which
Speaker 1: one is dark and strange. And my adoption attorney says
Speaker 1: this to me. He's like, this is a horrible thing
Speaker 1: to tell you there's going to be a baby boom
Speaker 1: after nine eleven, because people make babies after tragedies, so
Speaker 1: there was a huge baby boom um. And I I
Speaker 1: was in the weirdest position of being chosen by like
Speaker 1: fifteen different birth moms. So it was like Sophie's Choice
Speaker 1: around my house, Like there were like all of these
Speaker 1: dossiers of birth moms and and their stories and babies,
Speaker 1: and it was really, uh, that's really yeah. It was stressful,
Speaker 1: stressful because it's like, you know, how do you There
Speaker 1: were twins, and it was just it was just yeah
Speaker 1: and a varying ages, and and I felt strongly like
Speaker 1: there were a couple of things for me that felt important. One,
Speaker 1: I needed the story of how that child came to
Speaker 1: be to be a story that I felt like I
Speaker 1: could tell my child. Like in that pile there was
Speaker 1: a birth mother who was like twelve years old. I
Speaker 1: could not I don't know how I could, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, while I felt for that girl,
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how I could tell my daughter
Speaker 1: that story. Um. There were there were twins, and I
Speaker 1: was like, am I ready for twins? But what it
Speaker 1: really came down to for me was my birth mom
Speaker 1: a she loved to read but be when you took
Speaker 1: her photo, my siblings and I none of us look
Speaker 1: like each other, but we all look exactly like my
Speaker 1: mom um in an odd way, right, we don't look
Speaker 1: like each other, but we all looked like my mom.
Speaker 1: When you took my birth the birth mom's picture and
Speaker 1: you put it next to all of us, she didn't
Speaker 1: look like any of us, but she also looked exactly
Speaker 1: like my mom. It was really weird. I was like
Speaker 1: she got of falls in that line, and it felt
Speaker 1: very like it made sense, and like you find you
Speaker 1: search for your little signs, it felt like it made sense. Also,
Speaker 1: we just we bonded, like we bonded hard. And so
Speaker 1: that was good. Let's talk about the adoption letter, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure yours was incredible. Like you had said, you
Speaker 1: had a lot of offer. I mean, what is the
Speaker 1: word I was a lot of possibilities. A lot of
Speaker 1: birth mothers decided that they sort of chose me as
Speaker 1: somebody that they thought was a possibility of something they
Speaker 1: wanted to me. So one of the things that you
Speaker 1: do is you you know, you write this letter with
Speaker 1: a bunch of pictures of yourself. You know, basically it's
Speaker 1: a it's like a very weird feeling of like a
Speaker 1: sales tool, almost like you do the same thing for
Speaker 1: buying a house, like to put you over the edge
Speaker 1: if there's like multipliers. But it's a little bit like
Speaker 1: here I am, and here's who my you know, here's
Speaker 1: my life, and what your life would look like if
Speaker 1: you choose what your kid's life would look like. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, for like three months, everywhere I went
Speaker 1: anywhere my poor friends, I would like hand them a
Speaker 1: camera and be like, take a picture of me jumping
Speaker 1: up and down in the snow, take a picture of
Speaker 1: me baking this case, like holding this cake. So I
Speaker 1: was like, show me living my life like it was embarrassing.
Speaker 1: But I also was like I don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of I'm a single person. I don't take a lot
Speaker 1: of pictures of me, So I had to get a
Speaker 1: bunch of pictures of me. One two. The adoption letter
Speaker 1: was interesting because it really was me writing about all
Speaker 1: the things I wanted to do with a kid, like,
Speaker 1: you know, like I wanted to um be a brown
Speaker 1: A trip leader, which I'm about to be. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a brown A trip leader, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to have sleepovers at my house, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to you know, like gurl up in bed with
Speaker 1: girls and watch movies, and I wanted to read all
Speaker 1: the Harry Potter books and all the things that you
Speaker 1: want to do with a kid. So like I it
Speaker 1: was a lot of that, and then me just trying
Speaker 1: to explain who I am and where I came from
Speaker 1: and how I grew up in a huge family and
Speaker 1: why I thought that I would make a good mother
Speaker 1: for somebody, and why I wanted to adopt, and also why,
Speaker 1: you like, how I felt about And this was another thing.
Speaker 1: It was like how I felt about this idea of
Speaker 1: adoption in this process of spending of wirth mother and
Speaker 1: spending time with them. And because that's the other thing,
Speaker 1: like they're they're not looking at you, because they just
Speaker 1: are like, let me pick a perfect person. They're also like,
Speaker 1: how is this going to be for me? There as
Speaker 1: trepidacious as you are. So you know, it was it
Speaker 1: was me trying to convey like I know how hard
Speaker 1: this must be. Wow, that's really I don't think we've
Speaker 1: heard this perspective at all, which I think is really
Speaker 1: great the birth mom, because I'm sure some people adopted,
Speaker 1: it's must be hard for them, like they say, if
Speaker 1: they're too old or whatever their issue is, or if
Speaker 1: that they just want to And some people are probably
Speaker 1: like I don't want to think much about the birth mom.
Speaker 1: I just want to get the baby. But you have to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I took I mean, there's a there's a class. I
Speaker 1: think it almost everybody has taken. When you're doing your
Speaker 1: home study, Um, you take a class that's sort of
Speaker 1: about all these issues. And in my class, I remember
Speaker 1: being like I was probably younger than everybody else, but
Speaker 1: I was also the only single person in the class,
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of people there. And I
Speaker 1: think it's important dealing with infertility. Who for them, they
Speaker 1: had they had gone through a grieving process to get
Speaker 1: to this place, and so to them it really was
Speaker 1: about like it was about them, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And like they had been waiting for years for a baby,
Speaker 1: and so it was like their eyes were on a prize.
Speaker 1: And for some people that birth mother felt like just
Speaker 1: a means to an end versus part of the process.
Speaker 1: And I get it, but like, there's a To me,
Speaker 1: there was a guilt, like you are you are gonna
Speaker 1: find a lot of joy in someone else's pain, right right,
Speaker 1: right right, And you are forever connected to this birth mother.
Speaker 1: You just youre are you are, and you have to remember,
Speaker 1: even if you don't see them for eighteen years, they
Speaker 1: are going to come back around again. They really are.
Speaker 1: Like your kid's gonna want to meet them. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that happens probably every case. So who was the village
Speaker 1: that you had? I know, you come from a large
Speaker 1: family or the youngest of six, and your parents are
Speaker 1: You're really close your parents where they just your village
Speaker 1: when you brought Harper home and when you brought Emerson home,
Speaker 1: and um, well my family wasn't living out here at
Speaker 1: the time. But I have like my one of my
Speaker 1: closest friends in the world is a guy named Christopher
Speaker 1: who is Harper's godfather, who I am known forever, I mean,
Speaker 1: like truly for I think we met this is another
Speaker 1: weird one. We met on the day of the of
Speaker 1: the Slow Speed Chase. The Slow Speed Chase, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's when he moved in that Yeah. And he's
Speaker 1: been involved in Harper's lives and he's been involved. He's
Speaker 1: a guy who literally we've just been best friends forever
Speaker 1: and he's a guy who he became, you know, godfather.
Speaker 1: But he literally has come to over every Sunday of
Speaker 1: her life to spend time with her until she became
Speaker 1: like fifteen, and I was like, I have to be
Speaker 1: with my friends, but every Sunday. And I mean like,
Speaker 1: he got married on a Saturday and came over around
Speaker 1: that Sunday and I was like, um, you just got married,
Speaker 1: and he's like and it's Sunday, Like he's that guy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you think that's probably very important for people who
Speaker 1: are adopting, Like I think it's I think it's key
Speaker 1: to have people you know, um for instance, So like
Speaker 1: I said, I didn't buy anything with with Emerson, and
Speaker 1: I don't think that's that's not totally true. What I
Speaker 1: did was I didn't. I refused us to get anything,
Speaker 1: and then somebody said you probably should get some stuff.
Speaker 1: So first I just feeled like my Amazon cart with
Speaker 1: everything I needed, and then I was like, well, when
Speaker 1: the baby comes, I'll just hit But then I was like,
Speaker 1: then I got too excited. So then I bought everything
Speaker 1: and I shoved it in a closet like a back closet,
Speaker 1: and then when the baby was when I was told
Speaker 1: the baby was being born and I was leaving to go. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: then I was like, everything's at a closet and my
Speaker 1: village put it together and like opened everything and made
Speaker 1: sure everything was okay. Um. Adoption has come up a
Speaker 1: lot on all of your TV shows. You know what's
Speaker 1: cool about how you portray adoption is that it's it's
Speaker 1: not the point of an episode, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like it may have been back, you know, in the day,
Speaker 1: like Webster or Different Strokes or things like that. Like
Speaker 1: it's about a family that's like adopted a kid, and
Speaker 1: in your storylines a lot of time, it's just part
Speaker 1: of it. Um, How important is it for you to
Speaker 1: depict an adoptions? Is it just part of you? So
Speaker 1: it just comes out like it just yeah, it just
Speaker 1: feels like it's part of this, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: a it's part of me, Like it's a it's another
Speaker 1: way people make a family, and it makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: And frankly, it's more familiar to me than somebody giving birth,
Speaker 1: so it just it works for me. What other I
Speaker 1: know you talked about the Kid Book. Are there any
Speaker 1: other resources or websites that you lead friends too. I'm
Speaker 1: glad to hear that you have a lot of friends
Speaker 1: who are adopting now like this is I'm sure have
Speaker 1: you noticed a big change between fifteen years ago and
Speaker 1: when you adopted Emerson? Like, it's interesting. I've noticed a
Speaker 1: change in this in the sense that a lot of
Speaker 1: more of my friends are adopting. But that's because my
Speaker 1: friends are older. Um, and there's a there's a fertility
Speaker 1: drop off, ladies. Um. If Katie does an episode on
Speaker 1: freezing your eggs, okay, I have a lot to say
Speaker 1: about that topic, and I know we should talk again.
Speaker 1: It's the most important thing ever. Oh I remember, I
Speaker 1: think I was already too. And SHAWNA. Rons is like,
Speaker 1: frez your eggs consultation. You know, that's the hot thing
Speaker 1: that I'm doing. Now we're going to talk about it
Speaker 1: in Katy's crib. But I've been taking I take my
Speaker 1: girlfriends to their egg freezing consultations. I can't tell you
Speaker 1: my girlfriends now. I've seen their uterus, I've seen I've
Speaker 1: seen their eggs. I know their egg count. I hold
Speaker 1: their hands because they're single. They want to be Mom's
Speaker 1: really bad, and they got to take it in their
Speaker 1: matters in their own hands. See, so everybody in my office. Um,
Speaker 1: Betsy Beers, my producing partner, actually took me aside and
Speaker 1: told me that she thought that it was some form
Speaker 1: of sexual harassment for me to tell people that they
Speaker 1: needed to freeze their eggs on a regular basis, to
Speaker 1: set people down and get in their face and ask
Speaker 1: them about their uteruses. So I've tried to stop, but
Speaker 1: you can do it here. But I think it's important
Speaker 1: that people preserve their fertility because I have held the
Speaker 1: hands of too many women as they sobbed when they
Speaker 1: discovered that they couldn't have kids. So but anyway, okay, way,
Speaker 1: we were talking about how adoption. You have noticed more
Speaker 1: people coming to asking advice from about adopting because they're older, Yes,
Speaker 1: they're older. And then you know, for instance, some people
Speaker 1: have come and it's been really interesting. Have just been
Speaker 1: like we just decided to be preferred to adopt, which
Speaker 1: I love and I think is interesting. But I do
Speaker 1: think that more of my friends are adopting, and I
Speaker 1: think that that's good. It can't it can't be bad.
Speaker 1: Do you have advice for people? What would you tell?
Speaker 1: I mean, you've already dropped some real ships on this
Speaker 1: episode of Katie's Crib. But are is there any advice
Speaker 1: that you would say besides don't go alone, it's a
Speaker 1: good thing to come in there and know what exactly
Speaker 1: what you want. So I have this thing that I'm
Speaker 1: I'm holding some papers right now. I have this thing
Speaker 1: that I wrote that I give to all of my
Speaker 1: friends when they're going to have a baby. Now. It's
Speaker 1: I call it my adoption info packet. One of my
Speaker 1: friends gave me cards that say like adoption doula on them,
Speaker 1: which I thought was hilarious, But after she came over
Speaker 1: with her baby, she was like, I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you these cards because you talk people through it, which
Speaker 1: is funny. But a couple of the things I think
Speaker 1: are important is once you get matched with a birth mother,
Speaker 1: do not tell everyone on the planet that your baby
Speaker 1: is coming like you want to. You want to be
Speaker 1: like you want to shout out from the rooftops, But
Speaker 1: once again, this baby is not your baby. You're only
Speaker 1: going to see if it's your baby. So you can
Speaker 1: tell a couple of close friends that your baby is coming,
Speaker 1: but don't tell everybody because then you might have to
Speaker 1: untell everybody and that sucks. So there's that which I
Speaker 1: think is important. Um, you know, but you should do,
Speaker 1: like you should prepare as if a child is coming
Speaker 1: in the sense of like go find a pediatrician ahead
Speaker 1: of time, go you know, get all those get all
Speaker 1: the information if you're gonna need help or a baby nurse,
Speaker 1: like go go secure all those things, especially because if
Speaker 1: the baby shows up, the first thing you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to do when you get home, no matter how many
Speaker 1: times the job has been to a doctor, is take
Speaker 1: the baby to a pediatrician. Like there's all these things
Speaker 1: that you're gonna want to do and you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to have in place. But you know, you just have
Speaker 1: to remember that you're preparing for a baby, not this baby.
Speaker 1: Like that's the biggest part um. Another thing that I
Speaker 1: found out is you can get there's breast milk banks
Speaker 1: that you can get and you can get a prescription
Speaker 1: for breast milk from a breast milk bank, and you
Speaker 1: can feed your your baby can have breast milk um
Speaker 1: which is great for their immune system. That you can
Speaker 1: do a week, you can do a month, you can
Speaker 1: do two months. Like however much you can do, it's expensive,
Speaker 1: which is a problem. But that's us a really good
Speaker 1: thing for I meune system if you can make yourself
Speaker 1: do that. Um oh. I always think it's important to remember,
Speaker 1: like to remember the birth mother in all in the process.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I think people do talk about
Speaker 1: a lot, like when you go to if you're going
Speaker 1: to go to the doctor's visits, if you're going to
Speaker 1: go to the hospital, Like don't go and fawn over
Speaker 1: like the sonogram or the baby or like hold up
Speaker 1: a bunch of adorable baby clothes that you bought, because
Speaker 1: she's not a part of that, Like do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like you have to be respectful of
Speaker 1: her process, and I have her bad story, you know,
Speaker 1: like just sad stories of like they show up and
Speaker 1: they don't seem to carry the birth mother saying, they
Speaker 1: don't seem to care about me at all, Like I'm
Speaker 1: just some vessel and you have to really remember that
Speaker 1: in your enthusiasm. This person is a you know, like
Speaker 1: she's not a process. She's also not a vessel. She's
Speaker 1: a member of your family for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: And I think that people don't ever think of birth,
Speaker 1: you know, may not think of their birth moms that way,
Speaker 1: and you really have to think of a birth mom
Speaker 1: that way because that is your child's other mother forever,
Speaker 1: and you want that woman to feel loved and respect
Speaker 1: and appreciated because that is your child's other mother for
Speaker 1: the rest of your you know, forever. That's important. Without her,
Speaker 1: your child wouldn't be here exactly now. I think you
Speaker 1: mentioned that earlier in the podcast, which is so helpful,
Speaker 1: Which is just that she's also going through something like this,
Speaker 1: and so instead of maybe showing up, like you say,
Speaker 1: with one's ease and pictures of the nursery room like
Speaker 1: you just the seebe even a small thing of like
Speaker 1: how are you doing, like you know you feel, put
Speaker 1: some attention on the earth mom. I think that's huge advice.
Speaker 1: I've never heard anything like that. Okay, the one piece
Speaker 1: of advice I want to get is that when you
Speaker 1: do get the baby and you're in the hospital and
Speaker 1: everything's all warm and lovely and wonderful, steal everything you
Speaker 1: can get your hands on in the hospital. I don't
Speaker 1: know if people who give birth to this, but certainly
Speaker 1: you're right as a mother to steal every snot sucker,
Speaker 1: every plastic base base, and every like super everything. Steal
Speaker 1: everything you can get your hands on. Stuff it in
Speaker 1: a bag and take it with you. Just do it.
Speaker 1: It's your You heard it here, folks, Sean Rhyme says,
Speaker 1: steal it. I love it. It's true. You can have
Speaker 1: it's covered. Oh yeah, um, what do you wish you
Speaker 1: would have known before you adopted? I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that I think that nobody tells you about
Speaker 1: adoption that I don't think anybody can tell you really,
Speaker 1: or maybe people don't want to. It's like a dirty
Speaker 1: little secret or something, is that you have to remember
Speaker 1: this idea that all of this will happen. You'll go
Speaker 1: through this whole adoption process. You'll get this call, they'll
Speaker 1: be like the baby's coming. You'll go to the hospital.
Speaker 1: It will will actually be your baby. The moment will
Speaker 1: finally arrive. They'll put this baby in your arms, and
Speaker 1: you're going to feel possibly a little bit disappointed, which
Speaker 1: feels crazy because you have been wishing and waiting and
Speaker 1: hoping and dying for this moment forever and then they've
Speaker 1: placed this perfect, beautiful, amazing baby in your arms and
Speaker 1: you're gonna be like, oh. And I think that that
Speaker 1: comes from not because the baby is not amazing, but
Speaker 1: because you have had a fantasy baby in your head
Speaker 1: for a ridiculously long period of time, and you have
Speaker 1: imagined what this baby is going to be like. You
Speaker 1: have braided her imaginary hair, you have played your imaginary
Speaker 1: games with her, you have decorated her room, you have
Speaker 1: done all of these things, and that baby is perfect.
Speaker 1: And then there's the real baby, who is wonderful and
Speaker 1: beautiful and special. But those are two different babies, and
Speaker 1: one baby is never going to live up to the
Speaker 1: other baby because one does not exist. Right, So there's
Speaker 1: all that feeling that's like just left there, right, And
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with having that feeling. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people have that feeling. I must pretend like
Speaker 1: no one talks about it's like this big secrets, like
Speaker 1: you're going to be disappointed. I think people who give
Speaker 1: birth have that feeling. I did, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm the only person sitting here on Katie's crib. I
Speaker 1: talked about it all the time, like I hated it.
Speaker 1: And my mom swears to me she told me, but
Speaker 1: she didn't like she was like I told you that
Speaker 1: you weren't going to feel maybe anything, And I mean,
Speaker 1: but I did. I felt disappointed, like because I had
Speaker 1: been imagining it for so long and they're just different.
Speaker 1: It's just different, and this is like you think it's
Speaker 1: gonna be this glory. I also think in a very
Speaker 1: different way for for adoption, Like when you're like adopting,
Speaker 1: you're like on this like magical, mystical, like amazing journey.
Speaker 1: At least I was. I was like, the universe is
Speaker 1: going to put me together with a baby, and we
Speaker 1: are you know what I mean, Like it's a spiritual thing.
Speaker 1: And people know you're adopting and you've been on this
Speaker 1: like mission and you and a birth mother have been
Speaker 1: connected with and you're like the literally you're like the
Speaker 1: universe has placed us here and you feel kind of special.
Speaker 1: It's like a drug, like in a weird way. You
Speaker 1: had to work so hard to get paperwork and meetings,
Speaker 1: and it's been a marathon, and you are high on
Speaker 1: the endorphins of adoption, like like crazy, you are high,
Speaker 1: and those not that drug, and then they give you
Speaker 1: the baby and they put you there and the marathon's
Speaker 1: over and the endorphins go away, and all of that
Speaker 1: high and all that amazing stuff and all that glory
Speaker 1: is gone, like you had a baby and the universe
Speaker 1: is like next, and then you just become just like
Speaker 1: everybody else. You're no longer this like glorious, you know,
Speaker 1: amazing person on a quest to find your child. You're
Speaker 1: just a parent like any other parent in baby class
Speaker 1: who's babe throwing up on them, and you haven't slept,
Speaker 1: Like it's not special anymore, and that is the goal,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sometimes feel like the goal, and that
Speaker 1: is okay, Like that's the thing. The thing to remember
Speaker 1: is that now you have a stranger in your house,
Speaker 1: which everybody has, whether or not you've given birth or not.
Speaker 1: You're a stranger in your house that you have to
Speaker 1: get to know and like fall in love with and
Speaker 1: figure out. But it's hard to remember that sometimes because
Speaker 1: it did feel glorious, like even the crazy, like I'm
Speaker 1: at the hospital, is this my baby? Is this not
Speaker 1: my baby? Is the birth mother going to sign the papers?
Speaker 1: Is you're not? Like that's a crazy high, You're riding
Speaker 1: this incredible high. And then she signs the papers and
Speaker 1: you just feel more alive than you've ever felt, and
Speaker 1: you're connected on this like crazy way and your motions
Speaker 1: are right at the surface and then you get the
Speaker 1: baby and then it's just regular. Just so people know,
Speaker 1: like that is a thing and it's completely okay. It's
Speaker 1: completely okay and you and yeah, it's completely normal. It's
Speaker 1: completely fine. That does not like don't think like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I got the wrong baby, because I don't
Speaker 1: still feel that high. I don't feel amazing. This baby
Speaker 1: is not like my dream baby. The baby is your
Speaker 1: dream baby, Like the universe gave you the baby you're
Speaker 1: supposed to have. There are no mistakes. They're like, just
Speaker 1: go with it. It's okay, that's so great. And I
Speaker 1: think it's going to Disappointment is going to happen no
Speaker 1: matter what adoption, seriously whatever. I hear moms have it
Speaker 1: at all. Sometimes people have that high still for a
Speaker 1: little bit and then you know, at the six week
Speaker 1: markt reality sets in that they're not special anymore and
Speaker 1: this is real. This is my life, Like, this is
Speaker 1: what my life looks like. Now. That's just it. And
Speaker 1: I think I think feeling disappointment at any point in
Speaker 1: this journey is completely okay. And your whole motherhood is
Speaker 1: literally parenthood in general is just a series of disappointments.
Speaker 1: Punctuated by moments of outrageous love. I really do. This
Speaker 1: is exactly I feel that on a daily regular I've
Speaker 1: learned so much about adoption in this episode. I can't
Speaker 1: even tell you, Shanda, I'm so embarrassed, but like I
Speaker 1: literally showed up and said given up for adoption? Like
Speaker 1: what am I like a child from the eighties? Like
Speaker 1: who the hell says craft like that? Like I just
Speaker 1: didn't even realize talk that you hear, Yes, but you
Speaker 1: know I had to really just placed and the words
Speaker 1: that you use. And it's all important how it's talked about,
Speaker 1: and and I've just learned so much, And I'm so
Speaker 1: thankful that you opened your experience up and your stories
Speaker 1: and your advice to me and to the viewers or
Speaker 1: listeners guys, listeners were not on TV right now, we're
Speaker 1: listening to a podcast, Shonda Rhymes. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being on Katie's Crib. This was so wonderful,
Speaker 1: and thank you for sharing all of your time and experience.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you guys so much for listening to
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. We have a very special episode coming up
Speaker 1: with the One the Only Dr Harvey Carp. You guys
Speaker 1: might know his awesome books, The Happiest Baby on the Block,
Speaker 1: The Happiest Todds Are on the Block. He created the
Speaker 1: five s is that we all use. He also created
Speaker 1: that insanely amazing, groovy space aged cradle called the Snow. Yes,
Speaker 1: he's going to answer your questions right here on Katie's Crib,
Speaker 1: so to get ready for that, send us your questions.
Speaker 1: You can email us at Katie's Crib Pod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com or tweet your questions at me at katie
Speaker 1: Quel's using hashtag Katie's Print. And be sure to check
Speaker 1: out Shonda land dot com where you can find every
Speaker 1: episode of Katie's Crib. And we've got crib notes for
Speaker 1: each episode where you can find out more about our
Speaker 1: guests and links to some of the resources we talked
Speaker 1: about on the podcast. And last, but not least, subscribe.
Speaker 1: We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher basically like wherever you
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