WEBVTT - Becoming a Love Warrior w/ Dr. Cornel West 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.760 Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, our production of shand 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:10.400 Land Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. What would 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.600 it be like if people were able to not just 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.680 come together with coombae y'all, but most importantly be able 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:22.960 to engage in struggle to preserve the possibility of treating 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.200 others in a humane and human way. To see, that's 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.600 that's break dance, but Terry, that's hallelloja material. It's a 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.840 brother fied make mc how I look like a boy 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.479 scout break dancing in the name of joy and hope 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:52.800 and justice and a deep deep love. Hello everyone, and 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.080 welcome to the la Verne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.520 and I have quoted Cornell west famous proclamation that justice 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.520 is what love looks like in public so many times 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.480 I have seen his words attributed to me. Justice is 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.160 what love looks like in public, just like tenderness is 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.440 what love feels like in private. West goes on to 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.520 say that feels like the truth to me. I discovered 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.720 Cornell West work through my college obsession with Belle Hooks. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:30.360 They published a book together called Breaking Bread, Insurgent Black 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:35.240 Intellectual Life. Cornell West is certainly one of America's greatest orators. 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:40.000 When I started my college tour in I obsessively studied West. 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:43.440 West is a professor of philosopher, one of our nation's 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.960 foremost public intellectuals. Always in spirit, as we say in 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.120 the Black Church, Dr West allows that holy ghost spirit 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.960 coupled with a deep desire for justice to enter his body, 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.600 to take over and to speak through him. Dr Cornell 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:05.120 West is a philosopher, author, professor, and activists fighting for truth, love, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.600 and racial justice. He is a familiar name in most 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.079 households as a prominent democratic intellectual and frequent guest on 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.160 The Bill Marshow, CNN, c SPAN, and Democracy Now. He 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.480 has written over twenty books, including Race Matters and Democracy Matters, 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.320 and It's taught at Union Theological Seminary, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.960 among others. West currently co hosts the podcast The Type 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:34.560 Broke with Tricia Rhoes. Please enjoy my conversation the Dr 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:42.240 Cornell West. Dr West, Welcome to the podcast. How are 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.000 you feeling today? Well, I tell you I want to 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.360 salute you and all that you own and all that 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.920 you have done and are doing. My idea, Sister, I 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.120 consider you one of the great love conductors on the 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:59.360 love trains. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.400 I love that you started with love. I was thinking 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:04.480 about how I wanted you to start the conversation. I 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:06.560 was thinking about how much I love you and love 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.440 your work. And I want to just take a moment 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.400 to invite the energy, the spirit of what you call 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.519 that black prophetic fire to enter this conversation. Today. When 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.560 you speak and when you write, I feel the energy 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.440 of our ancestors speaking through you. I feel that you 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.040 get sort of get the spirit in the in the 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.160 way that we, you know, talk about in the church. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:28.680 And so I just want to invite that energy and 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.640 spirit and today as we chat for the first time. 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.600 But the beautiful thing is is that it's always already 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.200 operating inside of you. And you and I are at 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.800 the deepest level kindred spirits, because we come from a 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.960 people who have been hated for four hundred years. And 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:50.040 keep dishing out the love warriors, yes, terrorized for four 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.400 hundred years, and keep dishing out these freedom fighters traumatized 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.760 for four hundred years, of dishing out these wounded heither 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.960 and anytime I get a chance to see you, the heat, 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:06.880 your you, your spirit, your presence exudes and ex simplifies 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:13.720 and embodies this love warrior ship, and that to me 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.200 is always the bottom line in terms of the highest 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.320 level of what it means to be human. Absolutely absolutely, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.240 So I did a lot of I'm reading in preparation 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.599 to prepare for our conversation today. And the way that 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.560 I discovered your work almost thirty years ago was through 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.080 Bell Hooks, and it was through the book that you 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.600 and Bell did together, Breaking Bread. I was rereading parts 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.800 of it last night and I this morning, I was like, 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.159 I should call Bell and tell her that I'm talking 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.320 to for the other day. So I gave her a 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.760 ring this morning and I said, would you like me 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.520 to say something to Dr West? And she said, tell 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.240 him I love him even though he doesn't treat me right. 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.880 You know that that's a very Bell. I'm thinking, oh, love, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.039 she's she's so much an intellectual giant, and uh, she's 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.160 one of the love conductors to on on the love turn. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.760 Of course she comes at it now through the Buddhist tradition, 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:11.560 you know what I mean? I know that I think 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.920 you A and me design that right, not sig, just 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:21.400 just just yeah. And I'm holding the most holy ghost Baptists, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.440 and so all of us come out of the best 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.640 because the worst of that church is a patriarchy, to homophobia, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:34.200 the losing sight of non binary precious folkus form. But 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.800 the best is still the love that pierces through even 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.960 those structures that produces the belt hooks, produces a love 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.000 Ayon cos you know what I mean, produces by the West. 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.080 One of the books that I've always been most excited 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:53.320 about in terms of dialogue has been that breaking read book. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:55.800 Know that about it. So kind of you to mention 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.560 that book. You know, a few people even allude or 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.000 refer to that book even m which is a shame. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.719 It's um It's it's thirty years old this year actually 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.920 I was published. And what you and Bell were trying 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.400 to do, you were both at Yale at the time, 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.159 and you're both trying to sort of, you know, have 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.640 this public dialogue between black men and black women. And 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.440 Bell also wanted me to to ask you about patriarchy 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.719 and where you are with patriarchy. I would love to 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.880 hear your thoughts now at this stage in your life 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.520 about about patriarchy, black men in patriarchy, and your relationship 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.680 to how you where you've examined your own relationship to 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.320 that in your life. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:38.880 should add as a footnote, yes, that the the copy 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.839 editor to Breaking Bread is now a towering figure the 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.080 name of Imanti Perry. Oh yes, yes, yes, that Demanti 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.760 was an undergrad it. Yeah, let's say that because any 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:54.120 time we talk about any form of evil patriarchy, white 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.400 supremacis home of phobia, predator capitalism, repressive communist, or whatever 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.120 is a that los a side of humanity folk, that 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:08.240 one of our responses has to be trying to help 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.320 shape and mold into the best of our ability produce 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:18.200 folks who become forces for good against that evil. That's 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.640 what when I think of Remandy Perry as a student 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.840 and now a towering figure, I say, well, if my 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.080 work will speak for me, then the question of who 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:35.400 we help push and affirm and encourage and empower. So 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.240 anytime I think about patriarchy, one of the things I 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.440 want to say is what have I done to try 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:46.440 to kill it? Because patriarchy is killing other folk. I 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.040 don't want to be narcissistic or solipsistic. It's just about me. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.680 If I come to turn the patriarchy, then patriarchy has 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.960 a chance of being dismantled. Now it's got to be 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:05.080 collectively because its systemics and institutional structure domination exactly. So, 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:10.000 these days, I think patriarchy is running amok. You can 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.080 see it in the culture. And yet we've got some 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.400 strong forces, including yourself and others and Bail and others, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:24.960 who are countervailing against the patriarchy running amok. And so 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.040 anytime we talk about patriarchy, we want to understand it 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:34.280 as a balance of forces resistance and domination, but relative too, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:39.040 of the structures of domination. Yeah, and when I think 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.680 about breaking bread in relationships between black men and and 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:46.200 black women, there's so much contempt right now. Colorism feels 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.160 like it's like ripping our our community apart. In relationships 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.800 with black men and black women, and in patriarchy, it's 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.600 tied to all of very very true. I think that 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:02.679 colorism has always been operating in such a way that 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.800 is ripping us apart. Is just an under gym crow conditions. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:13.880 It couldn't operate in a broader way. Now, these days, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:20.559 we've got unprecedented opportunities for significant slice of us who 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:22.680 are part of a black middle class part of a 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.760 black bourgeoisie, and we have to make sure that no 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.880 matter what our social status is, that our spirits intact, 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.080 our sensitivity with the folk catching hell is strong. And 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.880 therefore the connection between patriarchy and colorism and class and 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.960 even empire and homophobia has to always kick in. Yes, 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.880 the capitalism peace feels very precedent right now, particularly one 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.720 one thinks of colorism and relationship to patriarchy. And I 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:55.000 think the piece to where seeing black men musical artists 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.280 be such arbiters of colorism so so blatantly, you know, 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:00.600 That's really what I'm thinking in the the pain that 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.760 that causes, the pain and the trauma that that causes 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.600 for so many black women out there. And you you 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.960 obviously talk about the catastrophic, the traumatic and the lives 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.560 and the experiences of black people all the time. And 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.559 I just was there a moment for you, perhaps it 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.760 was just in the text Two Boys and and Socrates 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.439 and whatnot, where there was a trauma or where there 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.200 was something, you know, a moment where you had an 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.400 awakening of sources where you died. Where you always talk about, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.760 you know, philosophy being the space where we go to 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.040 learn to die? Is that an ongoing process for you? 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.360 Was there a moment, you know, in your early scholarship 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.600 where something shifted for you around and was there something traumatic? 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.679 I guess, um relationship to all that your question is 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.240 so good and high quality. I wish we had four 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.480 hours rather than whatever about the time you wanta take. 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.680 But um, I mean right now, the death of my mother. 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.760 That's the major traumatic he's been in my life. The 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:04.800 be his catastrophe when I go back, certainly when I 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.200 got kicked out of school and no school would take 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.839 me because I was a young gangster. How old were 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:11.800 you when you were kicked out of school? I was 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.320 kicked out of school and I was seven years old. 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.199 Refused to salute the flag, and I got in the 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.120 fight with my teacher and we ended up with a 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.080 little riot the Communion Elementary School on Chocolate side of Sacramento, 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.520 and I got in very, very deep trouble. I knew 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.000 that this was going to be a turning point in 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.000 my life because mom was a teacher, not in the 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.800 same school, but a teacher, and Dad came home early, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.760 you know, and got his belt out. That would be one. Uh. 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.679 When I think of Martin Luther King Jr. Being shocked 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.120 because I was trying to be a great athlete at 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.760 that time and track star. It hit me so hard 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:57.000 that I decided then that his legacy was something that 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.320 I would try to always view as a stay ended 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.800 of moral and spiritual excellence and aspire to and whatever 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.640 form of life I pursued. Those were probably the most 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:12.040 discernible ones beside the deeply personal ones in terms of 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.559 you know, relationships to say, I won't get into all 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.480 of that right now, but in the end, it's really 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:19.760 for me and I love to hear what you have 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.400 to say. My bus sister is uh, it's two black musicians. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:30.200 It's done a halfway and John Coltrane and Saravan Carmen 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:35.559 McCrae and glad As Night and dramatics and whispers and thinks. 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.839 They're the ones who for me provide the kind of 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:50.120 spiritual resources, the spiritual wherewithal to withstand whatever catastrophic effects 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:55.160 are bombarding me. Yes, and there there have been many lately. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.199 I want to actually read a quote of yours about 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.520 music that is, they're so beautiful that my brother reminded 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.760 me of when I spoke to him earlier about you. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.200 You've said of music at its best is the grand 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:09.199 archaeology into and transfiguration of our guttural cry, the great 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.520 human effort to grasp in time our deepest passions and 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.840 yearnings as prisoners of time. Profound music leads us beyond 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:22.400 language to the dark roots of our scream and the 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:27.920 celestial heights of our silence. That's some beautiful prose, doctor West. 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:30.360 You know, I was thinking, one of the main reasons 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.240 I wanted to have a conversation with you is that 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:37.280 you for over forty years, you have been a freedom fighter. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:42.280 You've been a love warrior, teaching at prisons, getting arrested, protesting, 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.760 being canceled, you know, you know, and all of the things, 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.480 and yet you still are fighting. Yet you still show 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.719 up last year after you know, Porst George Floyd and 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.840 post Brianna Taylor and Tony McDade and just all of 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:57.600 what was going on in the world. And really, for me, 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.240 the trauma of repeatedly seeing black people murdered on camera 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.000 are nervous, since are made to see people be murdered 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:08.400 on camera, that is not normal. Broke I broke down, 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.120 and it was I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.280 go to a protest, I couldn't speak. I had to 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.840 get myself together. How have you kept going all these 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.240 years in the fight when it's hard, when it's traumatizing, 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.120 when people are trying to cancel you, when people are 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.400 saying all kinds of crazy stuff about you, and you 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:31.840 keep speaking shoot to power? What keeps you in the fight? Dr? West? Well, 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.960 I mean one is my dear sister, and all honesty 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:41.240 that when I see persons like yourself and others who 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.920 have made a promise to be true to their calling 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.400 based on the best of a tradition that has shaped 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.040 them at the deepest spiritual and moral and intellectual level, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.240 then I know that the cloud of witnesses that we all, 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.600 at our best want to be a part of is 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:06.520 always worth it. It's always something that allows us to 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.680 make whatever risk and take whatever costs we need in 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.040 order to keep it going, so that, no matter what 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:19.120 the immediate consequences are, the quality of the person of 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.200 period tubbing and either be wells by net and sojourn 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:27.480 at Truths and Martin Malcolm, that the quality of who 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.880 they are, their sincerity and their integrity is worthy of 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:38.680 our preservation. Manifest in our lives, regardless of whether it 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:43.320 looks like there will be immediate victory. And so, for example, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.360 doing the Obama years, you know, and he had a 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.120 whole lot of loving folks who didn't treat me to lovingly. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.800 And that's all right, because everybody don't love everybody equally. Now, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.000 I can I tell you that was deeply painful for 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.800 me to watch. So during during the Obama administration, you 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.560 were very critical of the president at the time, and 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.880 there was tremendous backlash from the black intelligencia from many 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.200 people who took issue with you being critical of Obama. 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.160 There there was so much love for him, and the 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.400 criticism folks just were we're not able to receieve at 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.520 the time. No, it's true. I mean I thought he 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.320 was two tied to Wall Street. None of the Wall 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.440 Street gangster went to jail where so many of everyday 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.560 people were going to jail. At the time. I thought 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.240 he was too blind when he came to dropping drones 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.160 on innocent people. Those are war crimes for me, five 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:37.600 sixty three drones dropped, two thousand and so innocent people killed. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.480 So it was hard to be critical of brother Barack 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.520 Obama because he's so borried and he's so poised. But 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.800 any president, no matter what color, you know, when he 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.080 tied to Wall Street greed like that, when they tied 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.240 the drones like that, when you're not really coming out 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.040 but the critique of mass incarceration and the police and 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.280 allowing the militarizing of the police take place. So you 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.760 end up with a black Lies Matter movement under a 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.600 black president, of black attorney general and a black Homeland 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.680 Security Cabinlet secretary. That's just the people themselves expressing their 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.960 own critiques. And I resonated with that critique in that regard. 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.240 But that doesn't mean that Barack Obama was not its 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.119 somewhere forceful good. It was just for me to milk, toast, 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:24.000 to centrists, to moderate and too tied to the powers 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.240 that be and not tied to the least of these enough. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.240 That was really what it was about. If there's anything 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.840 about that period that you would do differently about around 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.439 your critique of Obama, there were many people at the 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.480 time who agreed with your critique but thought that that 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.440 that the language and the tone was less than than humanizing. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.920 All these years later, do you and he regrets? So, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.040 how do you feel today. I think that people have 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.120 people have good ground for saying some of my language 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.840 was a little bit too hyperbolic, There's no doubt about that, 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.840 but that's just the way I am. It really is 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.639 gang I got gangster elements even in my my fire, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.960 and sometimes that spills over. So I could have said that, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.879 for example, uh, he's two tips the Wall Street, but 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.040 I had reached the point where I was calling him, 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.359 you know, a black puppet of Wall Street. Well, that's 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.040 that's my language. Is hard not to be true to 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.080 my language, you know what I mean. It's like asking 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.720 Eddie Kendriy is not the same falsetto. It's hard to 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.000 And yet when I listened to us, said, oh, would 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.480 have me in turns before golf and and and they're 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:33.400 right about that. So then I'd have to come back 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.000 and I would use a different language. But that lagmage 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.760 had already taken off next to you know, it's the 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.399 internet everywhere. So in that sense, yes, I think all 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.159 of us ought to be able to look back and 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.600 be critical and self critical. But I certainly would not 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:54.920 have in anywhere attenuate the orientation of where I was going, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.080 Because we're really talking about the plight of the least 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.920 of these under any president, no matter what color they 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.840 are or agenda they are. What was that like though, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.159 in the midst of it, right in the midst of 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.639 and I've I've thought interviews that you gave at the 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.920 time when you know that Michael Eric Dyson Peace came out, 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.720 What was it like continuing to go on television, continuing 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.440 to get arrested, continuing to go to protests, continuing to 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.360 teach when there were such vitriol for me, when I've 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.520 had people when I felt misrepresented right publicly as a 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.200 public figure, when people are sort of misrepresenting what my 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.600 attentions are, it's so painful, and I really I have 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.639 this desire to be understood, and just it gets like, 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.240 how can I keep going on and going out there 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.600 when people are so cruel? And you kept going out 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.800 there and and it was it was bad, It was 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:53.919 really really bad. So, um, honey, what's going on? I mean, 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.520 it is different. You know, we give my dear brother 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.400 Dison coming at me, hit me below the bill. That's 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.560 a little differ within some of the right wing folks 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.160 on Fox or something. That always different when your own 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.080 people are coming for you so that does hit differently. 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.640 But you know, as a free black man and as 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:15.359 a Christian, though, I always had to have a sense 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:21.639 that I should never ever be surprised at any kind 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:27.040 of evil or paralyzed by any kind of despair. So 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.720 I could be hurt, it could be painful, I could 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:37.320 be upset, but I shouldn't be surprised, which means that 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:42.840 I've always got some gas in my tank to keep 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.600 going and recognized Dyson still my brother, He's still got 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.159 some positive things to say. I'm just coming at him 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.760 tooth and nail in the name of the truth. Understand, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.560 you see what I mean and say it would be 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.199 true for whatever it is right wing folks, the Nazi, 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.880 same as true for you know, gangs like Trump and others, 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:03.560 because I know I got some gangs in me like 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.520 everybody else. So in that way, I can never conceive 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.200 of circumstances under which I would not still come out 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.399 swinging in the name of love. And I think you 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.600 know what one of the things that just spell Holds 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.760 myself would always say is that you see, our love 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:28.840 for black people is unconditional. It's not quit procool, it's 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.639 not If you love me, I will love you. I 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.879 love you because you love me. Now, when we go 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.600 into a church or a mosque or temple or community center, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.600 even a nightclub, to speak that we're loving black people 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:48.560 because black people are worthy of being loved regardless of 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:54.199 what they say or do to us, and nobody can 0:21:54.240 --> 0:22:01.680 take that away. Amen, Now, it feels like a great 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:13.399 time for a short break. We'll be right back though. Okay, 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:23.159 we're back. Let's keep the conversation going. One of the 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.520 things I really and it it keeps my own moral 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.720 and ethical compass, you know, sort of on track and 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.120 and in the right direction. Is you always talk about 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.280 the least of these. You always talk about poor and 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.720 working people and what we can and should be doing 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.800 for them. You've spoken how you were sort of encouraged 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.400 by some of the early signs of this current current administration. 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.760 And I you know, I'm worried because there's you know, 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.119 there's no fifteen dollar minimum wage right that we have 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:50.520 a able to raise them rasimum wage for poor and 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:54.399 working people, and that um, the way in which our 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.080 politicians are so corrupted by money and politics keeps the 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:03.440 the um concerns a poor and working people on the periphery. 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.600 What can we be doing now to hold our politicians 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.399 accountable when they're really more accountable, seem more accountable to 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.560 special interest into um, you know, big money. There is 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.480 an opportunity to shift things structurally, and I'm I'm just 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:19.800 so terrified that we're not going to take it for 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.639 the least of least for the people who are most vulnerable. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.760 My Desu, you get at the heart and core of 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:31.200 what my vision and vocation has been. I bigly appreciate 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.080 that because those words in the twenty fifth chap. But Matthew, 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:35.760 me and the world have made it because what you 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.000 do the least these you do unto me. I think 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.520 in the present moment, on the one hand, we got 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:45.639 the fascist threats still operating with Trump and company in 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:50.160 the Republican Party that's undergone a fascist expansion. So even 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.760 the List Change, who has been wrong and cold and 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.639 callous and and different to working people and poor people 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.879 her whole career, ends up having a moment of integ 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.119 because you doesn't want to succumb the fastest taking over 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:05.840 her party. And I salute her for that moment, as 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.720 it were. But when it comes to somebody like brother Biden, 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.200 as sister Harris brother Biden. I mean, he's got blood 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:18.920 on his hands. He got four crimes against humanity, mass incarceration, 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:23.680 invasion and occupation of a rock, the unleashing of Wall Street, 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:27.199 greed with the repeal of Glass Stigel, a vicious Israeli 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:31.240 domination and occupation. He has been not just a supporter, 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.240 but he's been an architect and bragged about it up 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.600 until recently. So he can change. I believe anybody can change, 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.440 and he's his capacity to change with the relief bill 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.680 and the infrastructure bill and talking about white supremacy and 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.479 Jim Crow. I applaud that he might have been LBJ 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.600 in that regard. But also when it comes to these 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.040 issues of foreign policy, like what's happening Goza, and he 0:24:56.520 --> 0:25:00.720 finally makes a decision to call for to cease fire, 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.040