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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, our production of shand

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Speaker 1: Land Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. What would

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Speaker 1: it be like if people were able to not just

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Speaker 1: come together with coombae y'all, but most importantly be able

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Speaker 1: to engage in struggle to preserve the possibility of treating

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Speaker 1: others in a humane and human way. To see, that's

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Speaker 1: that's break dance, but Terry, that's hallelloja material. It's a

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Speaker 1: brother fied make mc how I look like a boy

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Speaker 1: scout break dancing in the name of joy and hope

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Speaker 1: and justice and a deep deep love. Hello everyone, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the la Verne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox,

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Speaker 1: and I have quoted Cornell west famous proclamation that justice

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Speaker 1: is what love looks like in public so many times

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Speaker 1: I have seen his words attributed to me. Justice is

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Speaker 1: what love looks like in public, just like tenderness is

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Speaker 1: what love feels like in private. West goes on to

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Speaker 1: say that feels like the truth to me. I discovered

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Speaker 1: Cornell West work through my college obsession with Belle Hooks.

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Speaker 1: They published a book together called Breaking Bread, Insurgent Black

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Speaker 1: Intellectual Life. Cornell West is certainly one of America's greatest orators.

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Speaker 1: When I started my college tour in I obsessively studied West.

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Speaker 1: West is a professor of philosopher, one of our nation's

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Speaker 1: foremost public intellectuals. Always in spirit, as we say in

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Speaker 1: the Black Church, Dr West allows that holy ghost spirit

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Speaker 1: coupled with a deep desire for justice to enter his body,

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Speaker 1: to take over and to speak through him. Dr Cornell

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Speaker 1: West is a philosopher, author, professor, and activists fighting for truth, love,

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Speaker 1: and racial justice. He is a familiar name in most

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Speaker 1: households as a prominent democratic intellectual and frequent guest on

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Speaker 1: The Bill Marshow, CNN, c SPAN, and Democracy Now. He

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Speaker 1: has written over twenty books, including Race Matters and Democracy Matters,

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Speaker 1: and It's taught at Union Theological Seminary, Harvard, Yale, Princeton,

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Speaker 1: among others. West currently co hosts the podcast The Type

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Speaker 1: Broke with Tricia Rhoes. Please enjoy my conversation the Dr

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Speaker 1: Cornell West. Dr West, Welcome to the podcast. How are

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Speaker 1: you feeling today? Well, I tell you I want to

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Speaker 1: salute you and all that you own and all that

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Speaker 1: you have done and are doing. My idea, Sister, I

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Speaker 1: consider you one of the great love conductors on the

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Speaker 1: love trains. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: I love that you started with love. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about how I wanted you to start the conversation. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about how much I love you and love

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Speaker 1: your work. And I want to just take a moment

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Speaker 1: to invite the energy, the spirit of what you call

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Speaker 1: that black prophetic fire to enter this conversation. Today. When

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Speaker 1: you speak and when you write, I feel the energy

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Speaker 1: of our ancestors speaking through you. I feel that you

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Speaker 1: get sort of get the spirit in the in the

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Speaker 1: way that we, you know, talk about in the church.

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Speaker 1: And so I just want to invite that energy and

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Speaker 1: spirit and today as we chat for the first time.

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Speaker 1: But the beautiful thing is is that it's always already

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Speaker 1: operating inside of you. And you and I are at

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Speaker 1: the deepest level kindred spirits, because we come from a

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Speaker 1: people who have been hated for four hundred years. And

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Speaker 1: keep dishing out the love warriors, yes, terrorized for four

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Speaker 1: hundred years, and keep dishing out these freedom fighters traumatized

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Speaker 1: for four hundred years, of dishing out these wounded heither

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Speaker 1: and anytime I get a chance to see you, the heat,

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Speaker 1: your you, your spirit, your presence exudes and ex simplifies

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Speaker 1: and embodies this love warrior ship, and that to me

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Speaker 1: is always the bottom line in terms of the highest

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Speaker 1: level of what it means to be human. Absolutely absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So I did a lot of I'm reading in preparation

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Speaker 1: to prepare for our conversation today. And the way that

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Speaker 1: I discovered your work almost thirty years ago was through

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Speaker 1: Bell Hooks, and it was through the book that you

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Speaker 1: and Bell did together, Breaking Bread. I was rereading parts

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Speaker 1: of it last night and I this morning, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I should call Bell and tell her that I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to for the other day. So I gave her a

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Speaker 1: ring this morning and I said, would you like me

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Speaker 1: to say something to Dr West? And she said, tell

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Speaker 1: him I love him even though he doesn't treat me right.

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Speaker 1: You know that that's a very Bell. I'm thinking, oh, love,

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Speaker 1: she's she's so much an intellectual giant, and uh, she's

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Speaker 1: one of the love conductors to on on the love turn.

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Speaker 1: Of course she comes at it now through the Buddhist tradition,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? I know that I think

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Speaker 1: you A and me design that right, not sig, just

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Speaker 1: just just yeah. And I'm holding the most holy ghost Baptists,

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Speaker 1: and so all of us come out of the best

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Speaker 1: because the worst of that church is a patriarchy, to homophobia,

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Speaker 1: the losing sight of non binary precious folkus form. But

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Speaker 1: the best is still the love that pierces through even

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Speaker 1: those structures that produces the belt hooks, produces a love

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Speaker 1: Ayon cos you know what I mean, produces by the West.

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Speaker 1: One of the books that I've always been most excited

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Speaker 1: about in terms of dialogue has been that breaking read book.

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Speaker 1: Know that about it. So kind of you to mention

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Speaker 1: that book. You know, a few people even allude or

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Speaker 1: refer to that book even m which is a shame.

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Speaker 1: It's um It's it's thirty years old this year actually

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Speaker 1: I was published. And what you and Bell were trying

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Speaker 1: to do, you were both at Yale at the time,

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Speaker 1: and you're both trying to sort of, you know, have

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Speaker 1: this public dialogue between black men and black women. And

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Speaker 1: Bell also wanted me to to ask you about patriarchy

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Speaker 1: and where you are with patriarchy. I would love to

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Speaker 1: hear your thoughts now at this stage in your life

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Speaker 1: about about patriarchy, black men in patriarchy, and your relationship

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Speaker 1: to how you where you've examined your own relationship to

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Speaker 1: that in your life. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I

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Speaker 1: should add as a footnote, yes, that the the copy

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Speaker 1: editor to Breaking Bread is now a towering figure the

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Speaker 1: name of Imanti Perry. Oh yes, yes, yes, that Demanti

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Speaker 1: was an undergrad it. Yeah, let's say that because any

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Speaker 1: time we talk about any form of evil patriarchy, white

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Speaker 1: supremacis home of phobia, predator capitalism, repressive communist, or whatever

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Speaker 1: is a that los a side of humanity folk, that

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Speaker 1: one of our responses has to be trying to help

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Speaker 1: shape and mold into the best of our ability produce

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Speaker 1: folks who become forces for good against that evil. That's

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Speaker 1: what when I think of Remandy Perry as a student

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Speaker 1: and now a towering figure, I say, well, if my

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Speaker 1: work will speak for me, then the question of who

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Speaker 1: we help push and affirm and encourage and empower. So

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Speaker 1: anytime I think about patriarchy, one of the things I

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Speaker 1: want to say is what have I done to try

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Speaker 1: to kill it? Because patriarchy is killing other folk. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be narcissistic or solipsistic. It's just about me.

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Speaker 1: If I come to turn the patriarchy, then patriarchy has

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Speaker 1: a chance of being dismantled. Now it's got to be

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Speaker 1: collectively because its systemics and institutional structure domination exactly. So,

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Speaker 1: these days, I think patriarchy is running amok. You can

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Speaker 1: see it in the culture. And yet we've got some

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Speaker 1: strong forces, including yourself and others and Bail and others,

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Speaker 1: who are countervailing against the patriarchy running amok. And so

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Speaker 1: anytime we talk about patriarchy, we want to understand it

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Speaker 1: as a balance of forces resistance and domination, but relative too,

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Speaker 1: of the structures of domination. Yeah, and when I think

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Speaker 1: about breaking bread in relationships between black men and and

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Speaker 1: black women, there's so much contempt right now. Colorism feels

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Speaker 1: like it's like ripping our our community apart. In relationships

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Speaker 1: with black men and black women, and in patriarchy, it's

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Speaker 1: tied to all of very very true. I think that

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Speaker 1: colorism has always been operating in such a way that

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Speaker 1: is ripping us apart. Is just an under gym crow conditions.

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Speaker 1: It couldn't operate in a broader way. Now, these days,

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Speaker 1: we've got unprecedented opportunities for significant slice of us who

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Speaker 1: are part of a black middle class part of a

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Speaker 1: black bourgeoisie, and we have to make sure that no

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Speaker 1: matter what our social status is, that our spirits intact,

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Speaker 1: our sensitivity with the folk catching hell is strong. And

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Speaker 1: therefore the connection between patriarchy and colorism and class and

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Speaker 1: even empire and homophobia has to always kick in. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the capitalism peace feels very precedent right now, particularly one

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Speaker 1: one thinks of colorism and relationship to patriarchy. And I

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Speaker 1: think the piece to where seeing black men musical artists

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Speaker 1: be such arbiters of colorism so so blatantly, you know,

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Speaker 1: That's really what I'm thinking in the the pain that

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Speaker 1: that causes, the pain and the trauma that that causes

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Speaker 1: for so many black women out there. And you you

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Speaker 1: obviously talk about the catastrophic, the traumatic and the lives

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Speaker 1: and the experiences of black people all the time. And

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Speaker 1: I just was there a moment for you, perhaps it

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Speaker 1: was just in the text Two Boys and and Socrates

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Speaker 1: and whatnot, where there was a trauma or where there

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Speaker 1: was something, you know, a moment where you had an

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Speaker 1: awakening of sources where you died. Where you always talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, philosophy being the space where we go to

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Speaker 1: learn to die? Is that an ongoing process for you?

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Speaker 1: Was there a moment, you know, in your early scholarship

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Speaker 1: where something shifted for you around and was there something traumatic?

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Speaker 1: I guess, um relationship to all that your question is

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Speaker 1: so good and high quality. I wish we had four

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Speaker 1: hours rather than whatever about the time you wanta take.

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Speaker 1: But um, I mean right now, the death of my mother.

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Speaker 1: That's the major traumatic he's been in my life. The

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Speaker 1: be his catastrophe when I go back, certainly when I

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Speaker 1: got kicked out of school and no school would take

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Speaker 1: me because I was a young gangster. How old were

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Speaker 1: you when you were kicked out of school? I was

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Speaker 1: kicked out of school and I was seven years old.

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Speaker 1: Refused to salute the flag, and I got in the

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Speaker 1: fight with my teacher and we ended up with a

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Speaker 1: little riot the Communion Elementary School on Chocolate side of Sacramento,

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Speaker 1: and I got in very, very deep trouble. I knew

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Speaker 1: that this was going to be a turning point in

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Speaker 1: my life because mom was a teacher, not in the

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Speaker 1: same school, but a teacher, and Dad came home early,

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Speaker 1: you know, and got his belt out. That would be one. Uh.

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Speaker 1: When I think of Martin Luther King Jr. Being shocked

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Speaker 1: because I was trying to be a great athlete at

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Speaker 1: that time and track star. It hit me so hard

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Speaker 1: that I decided then that his legacy was something that

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Speaker 1: I would try to always view as a stay ended

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Speaker 1: of moral and spiritual excellence and aspire to and whatever

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Speaker 1: form of life I pursued. Those were probably the most

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Speaker 1: discernible ones beside the deeply personal ones in terms of

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Speaker 1: you know, relationships to say, I won't get into all

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Speaker 1: of that right now, but in the end, it's really

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Speaker 1: for me and I love to hear what you have

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Speaker 1: to say. My bus sister is uh, it's two black musicians.

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Speaker 1: It's done a halfway and John Coltrane and Saravan Carmen

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Speaker 1: McCrae and glad As Night and dramatics and whispers and thinks.

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Speaker 1: They're the ones who for me provide the kind of

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Speaker 1: spiritual resources, the spiritual wherewithal to withstand whatever catastrophic effects

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Speaker 1: are bombarding me. Yes, and there there have been many lately.

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Speaker 1: I want to actually read a quote of yours about

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Speaker 1: music that is, they're so beautiful that my brother reminded

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Speaker 1: me of when I spoke to him earlier about you.

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Speaker 1: You've said of music at its best is the grand

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Speaker 1: archaeology into and transfiguration of our guttural cry, the great

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Speaker 1: human effort to grasp in time our deepest passions and

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Speaker 1: yearnings as prisoners of time. Profound music leads us beyond

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Speaker 1: language to the dark roots of our scream and the

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Speaker 1: celestial heights of our silence. That's some beautiful prose, doctor West.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking, one of the main reasons

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Speaker 1: I wanted to have a conversation with you is that

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Speaker 1: you for over forty years, you have been a freedom fighter.

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Speaker 1: You've been a love warrior, teaching at prisons, getting arrested, protesting,

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Speaker 1: being canceled, you know, you know, and all of the things,

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Speaker 1: and yet you still are fighting. Yet you still show

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Speaker 1: up last year after you know, Porst George Floyd and

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Speaker 1: post Brianna Taylor and Tony McDade and just all of

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Speaker 1: what was going on in the world. And really, for me,

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Speaker 1: the trauma of repeatedly seeing black people murdered on camera

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Speaker 1: are nervous, since are made to see people be murdered

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Speaker 1: on camera, that is not normal. Broke I broke down,

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Speaker 1: and it was I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: go to a protest, I couldn't speak. I had to

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Speaker 1: get myself together. How have you kept going all these

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Speaker 1: years in the fight when it's hard, when it's traumatizing,

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Speaker 1: when people are trying to cancel you, when people are

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Speaker 1: saying all kinds of crazy stuff about you, and you

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Speaker 1: keep speaking shoot to power? What keeps you in the fight? Dr? West? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean one is my dear sister, and all honesty

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Speaker 1: that when I see persons like yourself and others who

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Speaker 1: have made a promise to be true to their calling

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Speaker 1: based on the best of a tradition that has shaped

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Speaker 1: them at the deepest spiritual and moral and intellectual level,

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Speaker 1: then I know that the cloud of witnesses that we all,

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Speaker 1: at our best want to be a part of is

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Speaker 1: always worth it. It's always something that allows us to

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Speaker 1: make whatever risk and take whatever costs we need in

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Speaker 1: order to keep it going, so that, no matter what

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Speaker 1: the immediate consequences are, the quality of the person of

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Speaker 1: period tubbing and either be wells by net and sojourn

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Speaker 1: at Truths and Martin Malcolm, that the quality of who

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Speaker 1: they are, their sincerity and their integrity is worthy of

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Speaker 1: our preservation. Manifest in our lives, regardless of whether it

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Speaker 1: looks like there will be immediate victory. And so, for example,

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Speaker 1: doing the Obama years, you know, and he had a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of loving folks who didn't treat me to lovingly.

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Speaker 1: And that's all right, because everybody don't love everybody equally. Now,

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Speaker 1: I can I tell you that was deeply painful for

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Speaker 1: me to watch. So during during the Obama administration, you

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Speaker 1: were very critical of the president at the time, and

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Speaker 1: there was tremendous backlash from the black intelligencia from many

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Speaker 1: people who took issue with you being critical of Obama.

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Speaker 1: There there was so much love for him, and the

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Speaker 1: criticism folks just were we're not able to receieve at

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Speaker 1: the time. No, it's true. I mean I thought he

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Speaker 1: was two tied to Wall Street. None of the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street gangster went to jail where so many of everyday

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Speaker 1: people were going to jail. At the time. I thought

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Speaker 1: he was too blind when he came to dropping drones

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Speaker 1: on innocent people. Those are war crimes for me, five

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Speaker 1: sixty three drones dropped, two thousand and so innocent people killed.

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Speaker 1: So it was hard to be critical of brother Barack

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Speaker 1: Obama because he's so borried and he's so poised. But

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Speaker 1: any president, no matter what color, you know, when he

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Speaker 1: tied to Wall Street greed like that, when they tied

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Speaker 1: the drones like that, when you're not really coming out

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Speaker 1: but the critique of mass incarceration and the police and

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Speaker 1: allowing the militarizing of the police take place. So you

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Speaker 1: end up with a black Lies Matter movement under a

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Speaker 1: black president, of black attorney general and a black Homeland

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Speaker 1: Security Cabinlet secretary. That's just the people themselves expressing their

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Speaker 1: own critiques. And I resonated with that critique in that regard.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that Barack Obama was not its

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Speaker 1: somewhere forceful good. It was just for me to milk, toast,

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Speaker 1: to centrists, to moderate and too tied to the powers

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Speaker 1: that be and not tied to the least of these enough.

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Speaker 1: That was really what it was about. If there's anything

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Speaker 1: about that period that you would do differently about around

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Speaker 1: your critique of Obama, there were many people at the

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Speaker 1: time who agreed with your critique but thought that that

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Speaker 1: that the language and the tone was less than than humanizing.

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Speaker 1: All these years later, do you and he regrets? So,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel today. I think that people have

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Speaker 1: people have good ground for saying some of my language

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Speaker 1: was a little bit too hyperbolic, There's no doubt about that,

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Speaker 1: but that's just the way I am. It really is

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Speaker 1: gang I got gangster elements even in my my fire,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes that spills over. So I could have said that,

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Speaker 1: for example, uh, he's two tips the Wall Street, but

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Speaker 1: I had reached the point where I was calling him,

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Speaker 1: you know, a black puppet of Wall Street. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: that's my language. Is hard not to be true to

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Speaker 1: my language, you know what I mean. It's like asking

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Speaker 1: Eddie Kendriy is not the same falsetto. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: And yet when I listened to us, said, oh, would

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Speaker 1: have me in turns before golf and and and they're

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Speaker 1: right about that. So then I'd have to come back

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Speaker 1: and I would use a different language. But that lagmage

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Speaker 1: had already taken off next to you know, it's the

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Speaker 1: internet everywhere. So in that sense, yes, I think all

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Speaker 1: of us ought to be able to look back and

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Speaker 1: be critical and self critical. But I certainly would not

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Speaker 1: have in anywhere attenuate the orientation of where I was going,

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Speaker 1: Because we're really talking about the plight of the least

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Speaker 1: of these under any president, no matter what color they

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Speaker 1: are or agenda they are. What was that like though,

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Speaker 1: in the midst of it, right in the midst of

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Speaker 1: and I've I've thought interviews that you gave at the

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Speaker 1: time when you know that Michael Eric Dyson Peace came out,

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Speaker 1: What was it like continuing to go on television, continuing

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Speaker 1: to get arrested, continuing to go to protests, continuing to

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Speaker 1: teach when there were such vitriol for me, when I've

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Speaker 1: had people when I felt misrepresented right publicly as a

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Speaker 1: public figure, when people are sort of misrepresenting what my

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Speaker 1: attentions are, it's so painful, and I really I have

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Speaker 1: this desire to be understood, and just it gets like,

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Speaker 1: how can I keep going on and going out there

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Speaker 1: when people are so cruel? And you kept going out

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Speaker 1: there and and it was it was bad, It was

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Speaker 1: really really bad. So, um, honey, what's going on? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is different. You know, we give my dear brother

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Speaker 1: Dison coming at me, hit me below the bill. That's

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Speaker 1: a little differ within some of the right wing folks

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Speaker 1: on Fox or something. That always different when your own

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Speaker 1: people are coming for you so that does hit differently.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as a free black man and as

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Speaker 1: a Christian, though, I always had to have a sense

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Speaker 1: that I should never ever be surprised at any kind

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Speaker 1: of evil or paralyzed by any kind of despair. So

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Speaker 1: I could be hurt, it could be painful, I could

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Speaker 1: be upset, but I shouldn't be surprised, which means that

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Speaker 1: I've always got some gas in my tank to keep

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Speaker 1: going and recognized Dyson still my brother, He's still got

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Speaker 1: some positive things to say. I'm just coming at him

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Speaker 1: tooth and nail in the name of the truth. Understand,

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Speaker 1: you see what I mean and say it would be

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Speaker 1: true for whatever it is right wing folks, the Nazi,

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Speaker 1: same as true for you know, gangs like Trump and others,

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Speaker 1: because I know I got some gangs in me like

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Speaker 1: everybody else. So in that way, I can never conceive

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Speaker 1: of circumstances under which I would not still come out

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Speaker 1: swinging in the name of love. And I think you

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Speaker 1: know what one of the things that just spell Holds

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Speaker 1: myself would always say is that you see, our love

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Speaker 1: for black people is unconditional. It's not quit procool, it's

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Speaker 1: not If you love me, I will love you. I

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Speaker 1: love you because you love me. Now, when we go

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Speaker 1: into a church or a mosque or temple or community center,

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Speaker 1: even a nightclub, to speak that we're loving black people

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Speaker 1: because black people are worthy of being loved regardless of

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Speaker 1: what they say or do to us, and nobody can

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Speaker 1: take that away. Amen, Now, it feels like a great

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Speaker 1: time for a short break. We'll be right back though. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back. Let's keep the conversation going. One of the

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Speaker 1: things I really and it it keeps my own moral

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Speaker 1: and ethical compass, you know, sort of on track and

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Speaker 1: and in the right direction. Is you always talk about

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Speaker 1: the least of these. You always talk about poor and

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Speaker 1: working people and what we can and should be doing

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Speaker 1: for them. You've spoken how you were sort of encouraged

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Speaker 1: by some of the early signs of this current current administration.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, I'm worried because there's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no fifteen dollar minimum wage right that we have

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Speaker 1: a able to raise them rasimum wage for poor and

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Speaker 1: working people, and that um, the way in which our

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Speaker 1: politicians are so corrupted by money and politics keeps the

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Speaker 1: the um concerns a poor and working people on the periphery.

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Speaker 1: What can we be doing now to hold our politicians

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Speaker 1: accountable when they're really more accountable, seem more accountable to

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Speaker 1: special interest into um, you know, big money. There is

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to shift things structurally, and I'm I'm just

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Speaker 1: so terrified that we're not going to take it for

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Speaker 1: the least of least for the people who are most vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: My Desu, you get at the heart and core of

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Speaker 1: what my vision and vocation has been. I bigly appreciate

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Speaker 1: that because those words in the twenty fifth chap. But Matthew,

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Speaker 1: me and the world have made it because what you

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Speaker 1: do the least these you do unto me. I think

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Speaker 1: in the present moment, on the one hand, we got

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Speaker 1: the fascist threats still operating with Trump and company in

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party that's undergone a fascist expansion. So even

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Speaker 1: the List Change, who has been wrong and cold and

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Speaker 1: callous and and different to working people and poor people

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Speaker 1: her whole career, ends up having a moment of integ

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Speaker 1: because you doesn't want to succumb the fastest taking over

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Speaker 1: her party. And I salute her for that moment, as

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Speaker 1: it were. But when it comes to somebody like brother Biden,

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Speaker 1: as sister Harris brother Biden. I mean, he's got blood

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Speaker 1: on his hands. He got four crimes against humanity, mass incarceration,

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Speaker 1: invasion and occupation of a rock, the unleashing of Wall Street,

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Speaker 1: greed with the repeal of Glass Stigel, a vicious Israeli

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Speaker 1: domination and occupation. He has been not just a supporter,

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Speaker 1: but he's been an architect and bragged about it up

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Speaker 1: until recently. So he can change. I believe anybody can change,

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Speaker 1: and he's his capacity to change with the relief bill

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Speaker 1: and the infrastructure bill and talking about white supremacy and

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Speaker 1: Jim Crow. I applaud that he might have been LBJ

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Speaker 1: in that regard. But also when it comes to these

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Speaker 1: issues of foreign policy, like what's happening Goza, and he

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Speaker 1: finally makes a decision to call for to cease fire,

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Speaker 1: and people want to give him some moral prize because

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Speaker 1: he's engaging in such courageous at you, I say, that's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: We got to be honest about this, and it's sad

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Speaker 1: to see that. Uh, you know, we don't have forces

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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party that are strong. And thank God

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Speaker 1: for Brother Bernie sound Us and Brother Rocanna and the

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Speaker 1: system of read Newman and others, and thank God for

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Speaker 1: Corey and the squad was trying to push this through,

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Speaker 1: but it's still just it's not enough. And I must say,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to our black politicians, my dear sister,

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Speaker 1: it's a sad affair. We've seen coward ladness, we've seen copictulation,

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Speaker 1: and it's a sad thing. And that's true, not just

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way in which palestines are being treated,

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Speaker 1: but when you get somebody like by and it stands

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Speaker 1: up and says, this is not a racist country. You said,

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Speaker 1: get off the crack pipe, brother, you can't tell the truth.

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Speaker 1: And then sister Harris echoes that. Then brother Clyde Burne

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Speaker 1: echoes that. And you know, if he said this is

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Speaker 1: a racist country, then they would say it's racist because

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Speaker 1: they're just echoes of the boss. And that's the last

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Speaker 1: thing we need. We need for with integrity who willed

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Speaker 1: to tell the truth, how can you even think that

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Speaker 1: America is not deeply racist and not a racist country.

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Speaker 1: That didn't mean every individual in the country's racial institution

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Speaker 1: structures deeply shot through with white supremacy, going and tell

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Speaker 1: the truth, don't deny it, and then highlight the countervailing

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Speaker 1: forces against it. That's the crucial thing, it seems to me.

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Speaker 1: And I would say the same thing about America being

429
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: a homophobic country, and the same thing about it being

430
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: a class this country, and it is an empire, it's

431
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: an imperial country, but that doesn't mean anybody in the

432
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: country is homophobic. Everybody in the country is sexist, but

433
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: it's a deeplyst sexist society. So when you get these

434
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: kind of moments of cowardliness, you said to yourself, you

435
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: had a democratic party establishment is still in milk toal form,

436
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: even though it's doing some very progressive things in other spheres,

437
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: and I do want to support those infrastructure bills and

438
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: other such efforts. It's, you know, just telling the truth

439
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: about that America being a racist country. What is intense

440
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: to me right now looking at the state of things

441
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: is that is they they extent to which folks, particularly

442
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: on the right, are being radicalized by social media based

443
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: book by conservative media. There's such um persistent propaganda and

444
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: misinformation happening in conservative media that feels almost insurmountable. Right.

445
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: We tell you you are always talking about telling the

446
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: truth and and when you know killing in conways, you

447
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: know alternative facts. You know, I think she coined in

448
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 1: on Meet the Press. The idea of alternative facts means

449
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: that we're talking about misinformation, We're talking about lies, mendacity

450
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: as as you would say. So in the face of

451
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: mendacity of lives of propaganda, people who aren't even exposed

452
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: to the truth, right, who have not developed the critical

453
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: consciousness because we don't value education. And in this country,

454
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: how can the truth even break through when our media

455
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: has done such a bad job, you know, established media

456
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: has done such a bad job of informing the public,

457
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: and then there's such a concerted effort in sort of

458
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: conservative media, you know, propagandies. So then how does the

459
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: truth prevailed? How can the truth come in this current moment,

460
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: in the current state of our media. Yes see, I

461
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: think historically the truth is always a flickering candle against

462
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: the backdrop of the night. Always think of what Frederick

463
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: Douglas and Harriet Tubman were up against in terms of

464
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: lives and crimes and mendacity and criminality, the normalizing of

465
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: hatred and greed, and white supremacy and male supremacy and

466
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: predatory capital. So in that sense, even though social media

467
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: is a new form of technology to facilitate lives and

468
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: crimes and mendacity in criminality. The truth is always headed

469
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: towards the cross, So we shouldn't be surprised when you

470
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: see how mighty these devilish lives are. But we have

471
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: to believe in the end that there's something that's almighty

472
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: or mighty year than the lies and the crimes such

473
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: that it will not suffocate and saturate the world and

474
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: history in such a way that there's no truth tellers left.

475
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean, look at Soviet Union, they thought they could

476
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: just completely eliminate the truth tellers in the name of communists.

477
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: And I say this as a leftist, but you gotta

478
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: tell the truth. Look at South Africa, they thought they

479
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: can completely do away with the truth tellers, whatever Tina

480
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: Tusulu and and and Nelse Mandela and the other. Look

481
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: at the United States, they think they can completely do

482
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: away under McCarthy is or with Claudie Jones and and

483
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Ben Davis and the communists trying to tell the truth,

484
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: not always right on everything, but certainly right about capitalism

485
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: and racism and so forth. So in that way, the

486
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: liars never completely wipe folk out. And I just want

487
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: to be part of that cloud of witnesses that keeps

488
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: alive that tradition and then pass it on to the

489
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: sister Laverne Coxes because I read it in the Google

490
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: that was said Sister labery Cock said justice is what

491
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: love looks like in public, and it makes me want

492
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: to break things, just like tenderness is what love feels

493
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: like in private. I sent as a video of you

494
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying that to my boyfriend a few weeks ago,

495
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: and he was like, that's exactly right. And to have that,

496
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: to really know what love is, to know what that

497
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: tenderness feels like in private and then have a version

498
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: for what that could be in public, it's just so

499
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: powerful to me. It just I always think, can you

500
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 1: imagine what it would look like if our policies were

501
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: built in love and the truth, and that we can

502
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: love everyone right, That we could have the humanity, the

503
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: beautiful humanity of every citizen highlighted in our the way

504
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: we do public policy, the way we structure our institutions.

505
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: If that was from a place of love, that could

506
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: be It's beautiful, beautiful revolution. But you understand, you understand that.

507
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: So I've been blessed teaching prisons for forty one years.

508
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: And if there's an anthem of my brothers in prisons,

509
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: it would be a zoomed by the common duals. I

510
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: don't know if I know that zoo zoo. I like

511
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: to fly Oh wait, well, I like to fly away.

512
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: I like the fly away zoom. And the dream is

513
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: the freedom dream, and it reminds us of the great

514
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: classic of Robert Kelly book called Freedom Dream. And it's

515
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: just dream of what things would really be like if

516
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: our humanity and dignity were affirmed across race, across any

517
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: form of national identity, during the sexual orientation and so forth.

518
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: What would it be like if people were able to

519
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: not just come together with coombae y'all, but most importantly

520
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: be able to engage in struggle to preserve the possibility

521
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: of treating others in a humane and human way. And see,

522
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: that's that's break dance material, that's hallelloja material. It's abother fire.

523
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: Make MC look like a boy scout in terms of

524
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: break dance and in the name of joy and hope

525
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: and justice and a deep, deep love. Yes, when when

526
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: I think about I was talking to my brother this

527
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: morning about that black prophetic fire and traditions and hope

528
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: and and being in your blues man, of course, and

529
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: that in the blues and the catastrophe of the blues

530
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: is joy and there is always the joy there. And

531
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: when I, of course, whenever I think about joy, I

532
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: think about what Burnee Brown says about joy that she

533
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: in her research, she discovered their joy is the most

534
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: difficult emotion to feel. That is the most vulnerable emotion

535
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: to feel, because often when we are truly in a

536
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: space of being joyous, we are for bow joy, wait

537
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: for the other shooter drop so to allow ourselves to

538
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: feel joy. It is the most vulnerable of emotions. But

539
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: that is so deeply rooted in in what it means

540
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: to be black and American. There's so many people in

541
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: social media now talking about black joy and how important

542
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: me is to lean into that. Leaning into black joy

543
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: is leaning into that black prophetic fires, leaning into the

544
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: things that you know have sustained us for for centuries.

545
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: And it also is incredibly vulnerable, and vulnerability is really

546
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: the the source of everything that allows us to be

547
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: all that we can be. I think for vulnerability, it's

548
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: often thought of as weakness, and you know, number one

549
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: vulnerability yield for for men is to not appear weak.

550
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: And so I think that that among men that needs

551
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: to be a conversation around letting go of those those ideas,

552
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: like letting those ideas die so they can come to

553
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: a more more in line place. But emotion of associating

554
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: vulnerability with a willingness to be crushed, you see, they're

555
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: not the same thing. That vulnerability is a way of

556
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: allowing you to open up such that you end up

557
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: being stronger. So when you do have a confrontation with

558
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: Miles had had a conversation with the police and they

559
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: beat him down like a doll and he was swinging.

560
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm swinging with him too. Why because there's moments in

561
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: which your strength is not going to be manifesting vulnerability.

562
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: Of strength will be manifesting the tenacity against the a

563
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: force of coersion. But in terms of living and in

564
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: terms of relationship, the strongest of us, whatever our intention,

565
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: wherever we are, it has to be one in which

566
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: we're willing to give in order to receive, and we're

567
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: giving in such a way that the receiving that we

568
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: have has a bottom less nets to it. That's what

569
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: love is. Yes, the more you give the more you receive.

570
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: The more you receive, the more you're able to give.

571
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: But you can't do that without verbability. It also means

572
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: you're wound the ball. It also means that you can

573
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: get hurt, and that is that unfortunate or whateverything about love.

574
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful thing, but it means we can get hurt,

575
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 1: and we have to be willing to risk that hurt,

576
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: to be wound a ball, to really truly be vulnerable.

577
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: That's true, No, but that's that's wisdom at the deepest level.

578
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: Because you know Sappho a great poet from the Greek period,

579
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: or at least among the Greeks, where she says, the

580
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 1: bitter sweetness its constitutive of the love. Every love, you're

581
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: gonna get hurt. The question is how you gonna deal

582
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: with the hurt. Are you tied to a love such

583
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: that two k survive without that love? Which goes and

584
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: then add with the bitter sweetness, because if you think

585
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: you can love with no bitter sweet you better go

586
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: onto disney Land, stay on Main Street, drink your soda pop.

587
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. You won't kill us. And

588
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: I think that's what I always have to remind myself

589
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: of it to face the pain. And we're gonna have

590
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: to face the pain, but it won't kill us. I

591
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: can survive. That's exactly. Vulnerability comes from the Latin as

592
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, BuNos, which means wound. Yes, there is no

593
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: love without vulnerability, just like there is no intimacy without vulnerability,

594
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: which means the question becomes, what do you do with

595
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: your wounds? And with those wounds? Will you be a

596
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: wounded healer and joy spreader or will you be a

597
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: wounded hurter and a joy crusher? And all of us

598
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: have these poles inside of our souls. But when it

599
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: comes to Black folks, you see, we are a great

600
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: people at our best. We are world historical people at

601
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: our best, because we have looked unflinchingly at the most

602
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: grim and dim reality these of catastrophe in the modern

603
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: world and has kept dishing out these persons of hiden

604
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: vulnerability who look at their wounds and still want to

605
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: heal others rather than just go about trashing others. That's

606
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: what Martin King's about, That's what John Coltran's Love Supremes about.

607
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: That's what Whya Jackson is about. That's what the tax

608
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: is about. I'm telling you, because the thing is, people

609
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: don't understand the connection between your historical role as transgressing

610
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: some of these ugly homophobic and transgender sensibilities but always

611
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: situating it in the caravan and love. But the Isley

612
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: bother or the love training of any persons who are

613
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: wrestling with their wounds in such a way that they're

614
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: concerned about healing others. That's the cloud of what that

615
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: says that I'm talking about. You know, I often think

616
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: that it's not an accident at the first openly transmitter

617
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 1: of person to be on the cover of Time magazine,

618
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: to be nominated for an immediate as a black trans

619
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: woman and a black trans woman who deeply understands the

620
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: tradition of black folks in America, and and and I'm

621
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: very clear that if I've ever done anything great in

622
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: my life that it is because of the ancestors. It

623
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: is because of the transcestors. And I've allowed myself to

624
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: be used that I that I've allowed that. I think

625
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: it's important to know when you always say the best

626
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: of us, and I think to the but the worst

627
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: of us though, right, you know, the worst of black folks.

628
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: I think about that Sam Jackson's character and Jay and

629
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: Go and Chain, and you know, we know black folks

630
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: sold other black folks. We know that black men have

631
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: been horribly misogynistic towards Black women, and so there, so

632
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: there is the trauma piece. Hurt people, hurt people, right,

633
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: there's such a deep pain. So there's all these things

634
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: that we have done that we do out of pain,

635
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: out of trauma. There's the accountability piece, and there's making

636
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: amends and how do we heal the trauma? Build trauma

637
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: resilience and shame resilience, And these are huge parts of

638
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: my life and my work. And I know that so

639
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: much of the transphobia I've experienced in my life, and

640
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: it's been from other black people in a lot of pain.

641
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: Right that that there's a that there is historically a

642
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: legacy of literal emasculation of black men, right when black

643
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: men were lynched off in their genitalia with with cut off.

644
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: There's this this history, you know, in cinema and of

645
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: the literally emasculation of black men. So there's a lot

646
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: of pain I think that we are aware of and

647
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: not aware of attached to that, and that has been

648
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: often projected onto me as a black trans woman, and

649
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: how do we reconcile that pain without becoming the oppressor?

650
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: I mean, one is always recognized and a degree to

651
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: which we're all on a human continual so that we

652
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: never put ourselves above others even when they are morally

653
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: and spiritually wrong, because we know there's elements in them

654
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: that are in us, which means they have a capacity

655
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: to change, Which means that at the moment with the

656
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: engaging gangs activity, and we have a gangster element inside

657
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: of us, and that doesn't really all the same. It

658
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: just means we made different kinds of choices in this regard,

659
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: you see, so that the kind of internalized oppression that

660
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: the Great Arctic Lord talks about. Of course Belle Us

661
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: talks about this as the great theory of radical pedagogy

662
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: and education that she is. How do we attempt to

663
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: kill and murder the forms of internalized oppression inside of

664
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: us so that we are not in any way, in

665
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: our actions and perceptions reproducing it, even though we claim

666
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: to be progressive. And that's a human battle. That is

667
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: a human battle. And in the end, I think it's

668
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: really the arts and certain stories of great examples, because

669
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: in the end, the only thing we really have to

670
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: go on in terms of our ability to connect with

671
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: each other with the love and the tenderness. Are the examples.

672
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: You see what I mean. The sister Laverin Cox is

673
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: a living sermon. It ain't just what is said head,

674
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: it is what is lived. But what has lived still

675
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: a human life, you know, it's not a life that

676
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: somehow it's transcended. And and myself as a Christian because

677
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 1: I go back to that palsing to do name Jesus,

678
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: he's questioning the existence of God, my God, my God?

679
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: Why does that? For a second, He's questioned his ability

680
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: to conform to any kind of will of God. He's

681
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: got a whole host of struggles going on inside of him,

682
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: and it looks like, for a moment he's an atheist.

683
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: For a moment he's an agnostic, because why he was

684
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: the word made flash John one fourteen. It came to

685
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: dwell among us. A whole lot of interpretations of that, right, Christians,

686
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: that might be Jesus and other spirits for human beings.

687
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: Is like the truth made flash, the embodiment of it,

688
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: the concratization of examples. That's the key traditions that constitute

689
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: those examples coming together, and there's those traditions that we

690
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: try to keep alive. And that's why there's so much

691
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: spiritual warfare against young folks, especially black young folks. If

692
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: you can keep them from certain kind of loving spirits,

693
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 1: sacrificial spirits, courageous spirits, only presented them the successful spirits

694
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: who are accommodating themselves to a status quo, well adjusted

695
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: the injustice, but got big spectacle, big money, big status,

696
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: big position than the young folks no longer even have

697
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: a perception. They can't even see what greatness is. All

698
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: this is success. They can't see magnanimity, All this is prosperity.

699
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: They can see integrity. All they say is cupidity. Oh

700
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: I just want to be a lover of money. I

701
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: just want to be a love of status. No, keep

702
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: your money, have your status, but you better know something deep.

703
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: But what came into the flesh, Some love came in

704
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: Some justice was injected in there, some sacrifice was injected

705
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: in there. And now was to exemplify that example, exemplify

706
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: that kind of orientation. They got something the offer. Absolutely,

707
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: they got some thank you so much of it's so beautiful.

708
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: This it's the example. But I think I also think

709
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: we should be in therapy, and I think we should

710
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: be in therapy. I also think that we need to

711
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: be dealing with addiction. If there is addiction, you know

712
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: that that there's tough step programs, that there's their their ways,

713
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: that we're actively engaged in a process of healing. Yes,

714
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: I really is important to have that embodied in the

715
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: somatic work that I do in my trauma resilience. That

716
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: all of this has to be embodied to the beautiful

717
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: resource of our ancests, the beautiful resource of those examples

718
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: you you set forth. It is so incased, so important

719
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: that that is embodied, that we feel that in our

720
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: nervous systems. But then I think sometimes too, the trauma

721
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: is so great, the abuse is so so real, that

722
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: we have to seek seek some help too, that we

723
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: have to You know, my, my, my deeply beloved and

724
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: a heat she's a professor of psychology but also part

725
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: of addiction studies, and so she gets a chance to

726
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: reflect and give me deep wise insight as to how

727
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: you come to terms with different therapeutic options that can empower,

728
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: different clinical options that can empower, but even those must

729
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: have a spiritual dimension. Here we go back to Bill

730
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: Hooks again, and by spiritual, all we talk about is love, compassion, empathy,

731
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: wrestling with hiding vulnerability, open to intimacy, because those are

732
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: the only things that open we human beings up. And

733
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: I'll say, and is the best spirituality that it's a

734
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: sense of having a connection just and something that is

735
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: greater than us. Something a connection that can be a community,

736
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: that can be a tradition, it could be a religion.

737
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: But but the connection to something that is bigger than us.

738
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: Absolute know, the great rab By Abraham josh Or has

739
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: used to know another one of my soul companions, you know,

740
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: like cold Rane that he used to say, something greater

741
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: than us is asking us to do something, is making

742
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: a request and a demand of us. And that's something bigger.

743
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: Can be a god, but atheists can play just as

744
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: important roll. The more it could be an ideal, it

745
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: could be a tradition, it could be a commitment to

746
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: artistic vocation, all of those things, something bigger than us

747
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: is asking us to do something of help to others. Own,

748
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: brother d Witch, in terms of on the same love train,

749
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: you just own the judaic section of it, and I'm

750
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: on the Jesus loving section of it where he loved

751
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: Jesus too, but not the way that I do. You don't,

752
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: but but we own the same train together. The same

753
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: is true with Angela David. She dead up secondar even

754
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: though she come out of Black Church. She did, I'm

755
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: second in the atheistic wing right on. Angela loved you

756
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: love it. It's hard for the Black Church to ever

757
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: really leave you if you if you were raised in it.

758
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: I suspect I take a teensy break here, but I'll

759
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: be fast. That wasn't so bad, now, wasn't okay? Let's

760
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: get back to it. Um. One other thing you said

761
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: m recently that the language of wokeness is detrimental. You

762
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: recently said that if you stay woke, you suffer from insomnia.

763
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: I believe in being fortified. Wokeness is a moment in

764
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: our attempt to fortify ourselves to be love warriors, be

765
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: wounded healers, and to be freedom fighters, all three at

766
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: the same time. Can you can you expand a bit

767
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: on on that and what guess what it means to

768
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: be fortified, how we fortify ourselves as opposed to wokeness.

769
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: Because you if you watch you know conservative news, you

770
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: know or listen, they're like, no woke if killing us

771
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: anti woke sentiment that it's permeating conservative media now. So

772
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: I would love for you to expand on what you

773
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: mean by what we need, what it means to fortify ourselves.

774
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: I was saying kind of ingest that wokeness is a

775
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: beautiful thing because it means you shattered the sleep walking,

776
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: which means you shattered your complicity and complacency visa the

777
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: oppressive status closed. But what we want a long distance

778
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: runners in the struggle for love and justice. And you

779
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: can't be along distance running if you just woke every second.

780
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: That was part of got a joke in Joe been

781
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: something you know that you got to fortify yourself to

782
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:56,479
Speaker 1: recognize when you awoke, you're seeing things you haven't seen before.

783
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: You're feeling things deeper, you're acting more courageously. But there's

784
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: moments in which you're gonna have to steal away, gonna

785
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: need some sleep. Brother, It's just you got to pace

786
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 1: yourself for the long run. We just lost one of

787
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: the greatest track athletes of all time, Lee Evans. He

788
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: was the greatest full forty and four hundred meter run

789
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: ever and he had a wokenus in terms of his discipline,

790
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: and when he was practicing and discipline, he was the

791
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: most woke on the track field. But he knew he's

792
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: gonna have to somehow have the whole life so that

793
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: he could be the great track person that he was

794
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: met after me year after year, and so he fortified himself.

795
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: And I think anytime we think of great athletes like Lee,

796
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 1: ever great musicians like Ben Webster or Mary Lou Williams,

797
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: they were fortified. What is fortified mean put on the whole,

798
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: whole on, put the whole. Any justice that's only justice

799
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: soon degenerates into some the less the justice. You need

800
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: a love to keep your justice afloat, Yes, Because if

801
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: you're only concerned about justice and you don't have a

802
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: deep love, care and concern for the folks you're fighting for,

803
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna sell out pretty soon. You're gonna get bought

804
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 1: off real quick. But if you gotta deepcare, even when

805
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: you change your ideology, like Malcolm, you see, he had

806
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: a love that cuts so deep that it informed his

807
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: new conceptions of justice. Embracing struggles against patriarchy, embracing struggles

808
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: against any form that loses sight of the humanity and

809
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: in that sense, you know, the shift from Malcolm Little

810
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: of Malcolm X at the end, it hardly gets better

811
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: than that. Amazing. You often talk about two Boys is

812
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: four questions that that he has for young people. You

813
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: often mentioned that think because I think we live in

814
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: an anti intellectual era. Uh, we live in an era

815
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: where predatory capitalism, where people want to make a lot

816
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: of money and and greed. It's just it's rampant, right,

817
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: And you've said this in other ways, that people just

818
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: want to be successful but not great and and and

819
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: the money motives and the integrity piece, and so in

820
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: one what are your thoughts under boys is four questions

821
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: now for young people? And do you still feel it's

822
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: it's it's those questions are relevant. You know what what

823
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: do boys asked us to? You want? Should I do

824
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: you want to tell us what they are? Should I

825
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: tell us? Oh? Absolutely no? And I had a feeling

826
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: you'd like to. I appreciate you mentioned in those And

827
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: how shall integrity face oppression? What does honestly do in

828
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: the face of deception? What does decency do in the

829
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: face of ind so how shall courage meet brute force?

830
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: Those questions are as relevant as they can be today.

831
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: The oppression is still there all parts of the world, Europe,

832
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: Middle East, Asia, United States. Where is the intellectual, moral,

833
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: and spiritual integrity to tell the truth? Deception lies everywhere?

834
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: Where is the honesty to point it out and then

835
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: laid bare what the alternative is? And then you think

836
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: of the assaults and attacks micro and macro. Where is

837
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: the decency? Decency is a revolutionary act and an indecent society.

838
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: For me, that's what decency is. Making sure that the

839
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: Golden rule is amplified across the board. I want you

840
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: to do to poor folks in South side of Los Angeles,

841
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: white bossist in Appalachia, Precious trans Froke in Brazil, Palestinians

842
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: on the West Bank, Jews in Russia, Muslims in China.

843
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 1: Do to them what you would want to be done

844
00:51:52,920 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: to you personally and structurally. And so the vorce's questions integrity, honest, decency, courage. Oh,

845
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: if we had a renaissance that those we had a

846
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: more spiritual renaissance of those were on our way to revolution.

847
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: But there's a price to pay. It's trickier for black politicians,

848
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: I think right it's it was easier for Clinton and

849
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: for Biden to talk about race, and it was for

850
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: Obama because he's black, so so that the doll know

851
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: it's useful Obama. But it's harder to talk. But the

852
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: political calculations that black politicians have to do, that black

853
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: celebrities have to do to maintain a certain level of

854
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: no sort of being canceled, I guess, or just or

855
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: being able to continue to have a platform, continue to

856
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: be able to do some kind of work. Their choices

857
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: that have to be made. And it's and it's like,

858
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: are those choices anti are integrity? There's the incrementalism, and

859
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: there's a revolutionary the consequences of step telling the truth.

860
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: You have lived those, right, We've seen when you were

861
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: campaigning for Sandra's last year and and and the year before,

862
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I saw you on television again.

863
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: I saw people looking to you with reverence when you

864
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: said were not enough to put black faces in high places.

865
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: It just there was something so beautiful about it, right

866
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: that somehow the culture hits shifted and you were still,

867
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, saying the same things and doing the same things.

868
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: But then the world kind of came around. You're able

869
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: to You're you're in the academy, and I know you

870
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: weren't tating your at Harvard, but you weren't your other

871
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: places that you're able to, you know, continue to survive

872
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: into and to take care of yourself for those folks

873
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: who want to be able to tell the truth. But

874
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: the consequences of telling the truth, right, there are real

875
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: life consequences that you know when you tell the truth.

876
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: And you know the way in which Sanders last year

877
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,720
Speaker 1: went right before Super Tuesday, the way all the Canadas

878
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 1: sort of dropped out and coalesced behind Biden because Sanders

879
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: was such a threat to the status quo. It was

880
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: such for me an example of how the system is relentless.

881
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: Bell has called imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarch. Added that

882
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: cis normative, heteronormative, imperialist, white supremas is capitalist, patriarch is

883
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: relentle us in trying to in fortifying its own power.

884
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: And so in the face of all of that, in

885
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: the consequences of telling that, you the consequence that being

886
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,919
Speaker 1: in your anyone's integrity, everyone is unable to bounce back. Yeah,

887
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: what would you say to that, Doc? Dr West? I

888
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: don't really think there is a definitive answer. It's only

889
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: our lives that are lived. In a response to that question,

890
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: I think about the Alonious Monk, you know, one of

891
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: the great geniuses, who went silent those last years of

892
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,760
Speaker 1: his life, every day getting up looking out the window,

893
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: year after year. We don't know what went into that,

894
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: but he had already given the world so much, and

895
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: yet his response is going to be in the end

896
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: very different than you know the ways in which Billie

897
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: Holiday would respond. And she's gone through her own catastrophic experiences,

898
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: but all of them are and to have enough resilience

899
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: to give us, enough to help us in our resilience

900
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: for the next generation. You see what you've already given,

901
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: sus a Laverant is extraordinary and more to come, but

902
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: whenever comes, you pushed it to the end of what

903
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: you could. That's our cannosis, that's our emptying of ourselves,

904
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: are giving, our donating and sacrificing of ourselves. Right and

905
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: with me, I tried to do all that I can do.

906
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: I dropped that tomorrow night with a smile on my face.

907
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: I gave all that I could give, but it was

908
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: still not enough. It's never enough, because the world is

909
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 1: too overwhelmingly demon griment as many ways. But there's enough life,

910
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: enough love, enough justice, enough compassion to keep the cloud

911
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: of witnesses going from one generation to the next. But

912
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,479
Speaker 1: that's really not a definitive and and so because history

913
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: is always open ended, you don't know, we have to

914
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: wrap up, which is I'm such a shame. And I

915
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: like to end the podcast with a question that comes

916
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: from my therapy, from the community resiliency model, from the

917
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 1: idea of both. And when I'm struggling there, what do

918
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: I use to kind of get through? What else is

919
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: true for me? What helps me to get through? I

920
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: can choose to focus on what's difficult, right, and that

921
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: what we focus on sort of magnified. But I can

922
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: choose to focus on something that is neutral or positive

923
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: in my life, something that helps me get through a resource.

924
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: So Dr Cornell West today, for you, what else it's

925
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: true for me? See, I believe in revolutionary piety, and

926
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: piety is remembrance, it is reverence for something bigger than

927
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: you is resistance allows you to want to serve and

928
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: sacrifice for what is bigger and better. What are the

929
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: sources of good in your life that have allowed you

930
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: to preserve your sanity and your dignity in your deeper

931
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: and darkest hours. And you have to have something to

932
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,919
Speaker 1: pull from. Doesn't just fall down from the sky. Comes

933
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: out of your mom and your daddy, your grandparents, your friends,

934
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: your partners, your boyfriends, your girlfriend, your teachers, your coaches,

935
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: invisible folk, wol you've never seen, but you read that text.

936
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: It could be played though, it could be deal, it

937
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: could be dose to Avsky. It could be within the

938
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: Linn Brooks. It could be Lorderca, or it could be

939
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: pasta night. All of them can constitute your community of voices.

940
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: And then you got to follow the Negro national anthem.

941
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: Lift yo voys, not your echo, let the echo chamber.

942
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: Go find your voice. Lift your voice. Be of service

943
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: to others with the voice that you have given, the

944
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: vocation that God has given you, such that you can

945
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: allow the love inside of you to have impact on

946
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: vocal feel on love. So they think of doing things

947
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,959
Speaker 1: they didn't even think they could do. They have possibilities

948
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: that they had downplayed. But you provided a certain way

949
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 1: of looking at the world such that they could begin

950
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: to actualize them. Why because that's what the folk did

951
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: for us. That's what's kept not just black pool going.

952
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: That's the best of the human spirit. Amen. Oh yeah,

953
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: as you were just talking now, I was reminded and

954
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: we started with bell hooks and yearning, bell hooks rights.

955
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: Our struggle, too, is also one of memory against forgetting.

956
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: How do we remember? And when we can remember? So

957
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: much else is true. There's so many things that can

958
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: get us through these catastrophic times, these lose infused times.

959
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Dr West. You're on social media.

960
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: I follow you on Instagram and we and you have

961
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: the tight Rope podcast. Where can folks find find your people?

962
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,959
Speaker 1: Come on just Twitter and and and and Facebook and things.

963
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: But I just want to thank you from the bottom

964
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: of my heart. You are just beyond extraordinary in terms

965
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: of your mind, your heart, your soul, your willingness to love,

966
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: love and swer and you you're one of the grand

967
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: examples that I talked about very much, so very very

968
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: grateful Right now in this moment, I'm overwhelmed. Thank you

969
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: so much, Dr West. Thank you, Thank you the love

970
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: and respect which I can give you a hug virtually

971
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: there there's a virtual hug. Dr Cornell West. Wow, I

972
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: have to tell you I was so nervous. I've been

973
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: just steeped in writings and speeches and interviews for for

974
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: quite some time preparing for this, and it was just

975
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: such a beautiful experience sharing ideas and virtual space with him.

976
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: He's been such a huge influence on me and my work.

977
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: He talked about being an example and how important it

978
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: is to have those examples of how how to love

979
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: through adversity, how to love through injustice, how to love

980
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: through indecency and terrorism and trauma and shame, how to love,

981
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: how to love, how to love? How to love? Justice

982
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: is what love looks like in public, dislike tenderness is

983
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: what love feels like in private. Oh, my goodness, it

984
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: is such a beautiful thing. And I think it is

985
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: so important for us to be respectful of our elders,

986
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: even when they are imperfect, even when um we don't

987
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: agree with them, that there is respect and kindness because

988
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: the road that they of walked is a road that

989
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: we can learn from. And I love being in the

990
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: space of respect for Dr Cornell West, being in respect

991
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: of Bell Hooks. Both of them are key in my

992
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: coming to critical consciousness around issues of race, gender, and class,

993
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: and they continue to be teachers for me, and we

994
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: should be looking at their example and holding them up,

995
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: holding them up and celebrating them and giving them their

996
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: flowers while they are here. Thank you so much, Dr

997
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: Cornell West. Thank you for being a love warrior and

998
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: being a beautiful, beautiful example for us all. Thank you

999
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: for listening to the Laverne Cox Shows. Please rate reviews, subscribe,

1000
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. Join me next week

1001
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: from my conversation about the challenges black women face as

1002
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: they search for intimate partners and create families, especially if

1003
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: they're educated. Dr Sarah Adayinka, scold, social worker and assistant

1004
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: professor of sociology at Furman University, shares her latest research

1005
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: with us about black women in the dating world. You

1006
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox

1007
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time,

1008
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a

1009
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.

1010
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I

1011
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

1012
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.