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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're gonna do another one

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Speaker 1: of our movie episodes. We're trying to do one of

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Speaker 1: these roughly every month or so. Sometimes we skip a month,

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Speaker 1: and of course when Halloween comes around, there's liable to

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Speaker 1: be a little bit more movie centric conversation as we

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Speaker 1: use fictional properties as a way to sort of springboard

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Speaker 1: onto scientific discussions, to discuss topics we've discussed in the

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Speaker 1: past in a slightly different light, or to explore topics

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Speaker 1: that you know, we might not otherwise get into in

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Speaker 1: a full blown episode. I noticed you just said discussed.

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Speaker 1: And today's episode will involve a different spelling of disgust. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: because we're going to be talking about David Cronenberg's remake

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Speaker 1: of The Fly. Now, this this is a movie I

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Speaker 1: I re watched it a couple of years ago, as

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Speaker 1: I recall, and you rewatched it last night, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's fitting that we're we're doing this. We're recording

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Speaker 1: this shortly before Valentine's Day, and it is coming out

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Speaker 1: in the week following Valentine's Day. Here you go, everybody,

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Speaker 1: This is essentially our Valentine's episode for the year. The

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Speaker 1: worst State movie of all time. Yeah, it is not.

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Speaker 1: It has romance in it, I guess some splashes of romance,

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Speaker 1: but it is ultimately a tragic film. Uh, an ikey film,

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Speaker 1: a monstrous film. Uh. It is a film that is

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Speaker 1: not about making you feel good about yourself per se.

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Speaker 1: It's a thorough I mean, I love the movie too.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a great horror movie, but it is

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Speaker 1: just a deeply grimy experience at every level. It has

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Speaker 1: like it has like like physical textural sliminess, but it

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Speaker 1: also has really slimy behavior by certain characters. It is

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Speaker 1: a thorough going exploration of slime. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: both hands into the slime bucket up to the elbows,

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Speaker 1: just rooting around in there. Yeah. This film and other

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Speaker 1: films from David Cronenberg are often referred to very loosely

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Speaker 1: as body horror, and I tend to sort of recoil

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Speaker 1: from things that are labeled body hard because sometimes, at

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Speaker 1: least in my experience, uh, that label is sometimes given

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Speaker 1: to work that is maybe a little a little bit

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Speaker 1: more crude for crude's sake, or it's all about more focus,

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Speaker 1: you know, or it's about shock value, or you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very um melt movies. Yeah, I then, you know,

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Speaker 1: I like a good melt movie. But but I do

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Speaker 1: have to say, like this, this film, and I think

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Speaker 1: that the other films of Cronenberg that fall under this,

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Speaker 1: uh this categorization, they tend to be films that are

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Speaker 1: not just about like the visual exploit of of body

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Speaker 1: and horror, but they get into the metaphorical domain of

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Speaker 1: body horror. Yeah. A lot of Cronenberg's work, whereas most

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Speaker 1: horror would be about uh, you know, threats to your life,

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Speaker 1: like something wants to harm you and it's chasing you

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Speaker 1: and you have to get away from it, most of

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Speaker 1: his horror is about the threat of having your identity corrupted.

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Speaker 1: It's the threat of being transformed into something that is

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Speaker 1: no longer you. Yeah, and of course this film has

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Speaker 1: it in spades. So before we we jump into further discussion,

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Speaker 1: let's uh, well, first of all, let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: say yes, we will be talking about this film with spoilers.

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Speaker 1: So if you have not seen David Cronenberg film The Fly,

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Speaker 1: and you would like to do so unspoiled. Now is

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Speaker 1: a good time to pass the podcast and go out

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Speaker 1: and do that. But for the rest of you, yes,

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Speaker 1: we will be discussing full spoilers for this film, so

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Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to hear just a taste

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Speaker 1: from the original trailer. There is a limit even to

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Speaker 1: the imagination human teleportation, molecular decimation, breakdown and reformation is

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Speaker 1: inherently perching where our greatest creations met and deep as

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Speaker 1: fears when you went through something went wrong, you are

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Speaker 1: about to go beyond that limit. You know. There's another

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Speaker 1: original and remake pair that I often think about, alongside

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties Fly with Vincent Price and then the

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Speaker 1: has it been Surprised? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: and and the Cronenberg remake is the Thing. Yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a very similar thing like Howard hawks the Thing

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. It has one kind of vibe

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Speaker 1: and it is substantially reimagined by the time Carpenter does

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Speaker 1: it in nineteen eighty or whatever it was. And in

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Speaker 1: both cases you see the remake reimagining it to the

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Speaker 1: degree that the remakes become like the the the The

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Speaker 1: the standing examples of the work. But they're they're both

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Speaker 1: stories about transformation, though the in both cases, the later

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Speaker 1: versions made the transformation much more disgusting. Yes, so so

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Speaker 1: let's yeah, let's let's back up a little bit about

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Speaker 1: just the origin and the Fly, because it also parallels

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Speaker 1: the Thing in that, just as the Thing, the original

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Speaker 1: motion picture was based on a pre existing uh work

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Speaker 1: of fiction. The same is true of The Fly. The

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Speaker 1: night film The Fly, which was directed by Kurt Newman

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Speaker 1: with a screenplay by future best selling author James Clavell

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Speaker 1: of Showgun Fame. This was based on a short story

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Speaker 1: by George Langoln George Langeliers, Yeah Boy, if you Like,

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Speaker 1: which was published in a June seven issue of Playboy magazine,

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Speaker 1: and I had to look it up. I was curious, like, what, like,

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Speaker 1: what is the presentation like in the original issue of

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Speaker 1: Playboy magazine? And it indeed, it's pretty impressive because you

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Speaker 1: have on on one side, on one page, you have

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Speaker 1: just the text of the Fly, no illustrations, and then

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Speaker 1: on the other page it's all white except for it

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Speaker 1: just like a blank page, except in the top left

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Speaker 1: hand corner there's a single fly on the page, like

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Speaker 1: to scale, a real size lie. Yeah, where whereas you know,

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Speaker 1: when you look at a picture revenue, you could easily

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Speaker 1: assume that there's just a fly on that particular Playboy magazine.

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Speaker 1: It's a nice touch. Now, as you mentioned, the film

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Speaker 1: starred Vincent Price as the inventor of a matter transporter

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Speaker 1: device called the disintegrator integrator, which is not as catchy

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Speaker 1: as telepod. H So, but and so he's you know,

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Speaker 1: he's working on this device, and of course he tested out.

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Speaker 1: Things go horribly wrong when a fly ventures into the

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Speaker 1: transporter with him, and he emerges with as two different creatures,

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Speaker 1: a human with the head and arm of a fly

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Speaker 1: and a fly with the head and arm of a human. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the original movie, I'd say the most iconic scene

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Speaker 1: is when the smaller version, the fly sized body with

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Speaker 1: the tiny Vincent Price head on it, gets stuck in

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Speaker 1: the spider's web and started screaming, help me, help me.

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Speaker 1: But I remember thinking when I saw this original movie, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so he's got a human head, but like it's to scale,

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Speaker 1: it's a fly size human head. That wouldn't possibly work.

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Speaker 1: He wouldn't be able to fiddle the like human neurons

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Speaker 1: into the brain of that size, his brain wouldn't work anymore. Well,

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Speaker 1: as we'll continue to discuss with Cronenberg's version, the computer

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Speaker 1: that is power and teleportation is really advanced. This is

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Speaker 1: a godlike machine and it likes to roll the dice.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, in the original, much like the remake, UM,

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Speaker 1: the creature has to struggle to maintain its humanity, ultimately

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Speaker 1: fails and then their tragic results. Now, this David Cronenberg's

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Speaker 1: remake is going to be the main thing we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here his treatment of it. Cronenberg was of course

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Speaker 1: coming off of success with Videodrome and also an adaptation

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Speaker 1: of Stephen King of the Dead Zone Scanners to write, uh, well,

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Speaker 1: scanners have been before that, but these two had come

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Speaker 1: out the same year, a couple of years prior. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: scanners what was out. By that point, he had established

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Speaker 1: himself as this Um, this new and signature voice in horror,

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Speaker 1: the King of Bad Feelings. The screenplay was by Cronenberg

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Speaker 1: and an individual by the name of Charles Edward Pogue.

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Speaker 1: It famously stars Jeff gold Bloom as Dr Seth Brundle,

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Speaker 1: a tour de force. So yes, like maximum gold blooming

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Speaker 1: in this, but also gold blooming to just a perfect degree,

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Speaker 1: like he plays to all his strengths as a performer. Also,

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Speaker 1: Gina Davis stars in it as Veronica Quaif and then

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Speaker 1: John Gets places character named Status Bronze, who is the

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Speaker 1: ultimate sleeves bag in a film full of people that

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Speaker 1: are that are oftentimes, if not exclusively, sleezy, the sleeves

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Speaker 1: on him in this movie is so thick. I remember

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Speaker 1: after this was like the first movie I saw with

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Speaker 1: John Gets in it, and when I saw like Blood

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Speaker 1: Simple in other movies he was in after this, like

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Speaker 1: the stank wouldn't come off of him, like it's stuck

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Speaker 1: on the actor. Oh yeah, I often forget that he

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Speaker 1: was in Blood Simple. Which which character did you play

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Speaker 1: in that he's like the main dude in it? Oh yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: often about him he kind of like Francis mcdorman's boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Okay, I do need to watch Blood

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Speaker 1: Simple again. That is a great film. I know it's

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Speaker 1: not fair. I should not hold this this character's flaws

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Speaker 1: against the actor and John Guess is great, but that's

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Speaker 1: that's the sign of a great performance. When you you

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Speaker 1: just kind of dislike the the actor as well because

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Speaker 1: of what their their their character did or how their

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Speaker 1: character came off. So the basic plot in the eight

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Speaker 1: six re make is the same. Um. Uh. This time

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Speaker 1: it's Dr Seth Brundle. He's working on these telepods and uh,

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Speaker 1: he of course ends up experimenting with it. He had

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Speaker 1: decides to just screw it. I'm gonna get in the pod.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to perform a little self experimentation here, and

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Speaker 1: a fly ventures into the pod with him. Biology is scrambled. Uh, humanity,

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Speaker 1: humanity has lost. Things end up tragically for monsters and

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Speaker 1: men alike. But then there are a lot of key

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Speaker 1: differences in this adaptation. We've touched on some of them already,

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Speaker 1: like the idea that it's it's less about the monster

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Speaker 1: you become, but the journey towards monstrosity, the change the

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Speaker 1: monstrous change as opposed to the monster its destination. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the film spends a decent amount of time stuck

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Speaker 1: in the middle, with Jeff Goblum's character gradually becoming more

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Speaker 1: and more less human and more fly uh and and

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Speaker 1: being able to like having metacognition on this like realizing

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Speaker 1: what is happening to him and being able to react

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Speaker 1: to it still as partially the man he once was. Right.

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Speaker 1: And then of course, when he first emerges from the telepod,

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Speaker 1: not only does he feel whole and intact, but he

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Speaker 1: feels improved. He feels, you know, more alive than he

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Speaker 1: did previously, starts doing gymnastics and stuff. But he also

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Speaker 1: becomes a jerk, like when he gets out of the

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Speaker 1: thing that I can't get out of my head is

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Speaker 1: when he gets out of the telepod, he's like somebody

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Speaker 1: on cocaine, you know, Like he's like, I'm a god,

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Speaker 1: I'm amazing. Yeah, and and hey, you've got to try

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Speaker 1: this too. Let's try it right now together. Let's do this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the great things about

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Speaker 1: the transformation in this film is that you can you

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Speaker 1: can apply it to so many other real life changes,

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Speaker 1: Like you can easily take this model and compare it to, say, uh,

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Speaker 1: the impact of drug addiction, like like we just mentioned later,

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Speaker 1: as he begins to transform physically, you could compare that

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Speaker 1: to various the ravages of various diseases. Um uh, you

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Speaker 1: could even compare to just the you know, the wear

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Speaker 1: and tear of age. There there's so many different things

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Speaker 1: you could compare it to, uh, and it it opens

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Speaker 1: itself up to those comparisons. I'm not saying it's meant

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Speaker 1: as a direct allegory, but you know, I think I

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Speaker 1: think drugs are very good comparison because, like, because it

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Speaker 1: starts off with this euphoria and this sense that things

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Speaker 1: have never been better. I'm better than I've ever been,

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Speaker 1: life is better than it's ever been, and then there's

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Speaker 1: the decline. It catches up with him. There's a denial

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So, like you said, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of psychological change, a lot of meta analysis

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Speaker 1: of like what's going on in him trying to understand

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Speaker 1: what's happening to himself because at first he has no

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Speaker 1: idea that that a fly has been merged with his

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Speaker 1: his being at like the most basic level. And then

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Speaker 1: another another I think one of the most horrifying changes

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Speaker 1: in a film that is full of horrors. They're not

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Speaker 1: even touching on some of the minor things they're thrown in,

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Speaker 1: like inside out baboons and whatnot. But towards the end,

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Speaker 1: as he's almost completely monster, he relates to Veronica that

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Speaker 1: he has a solution in mind, and that is that

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Speaker 1: she and her unborn child and and and him the

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Speaker 1: bundle fly, should climb into the telepods together and then

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Speaker 1: merge themselves into a single perfect being. Right, he decides, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm wasting away because there's too much fly in me.

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Speaker 1: Like I went in just me and fly, and now

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be fifty fifty when this process finishes. And

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Speaker 1: he's like, if I get some more humans and then

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Speaker 1: merge me with them, then I can be something like,

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Speaker 1: you know, sevent human and that's just enough fly. Right,

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Speaker 1: And of course this is the predominantly fly brain thinking.

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Speaker 1: This is the you know he talks about like the

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Speaker 1: absence of politics and in insect culture and so forth.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's such a horrifying solution because it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: He's making sense, but you it's it's just unspeakable horror

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Speaker 1: to imagine what this final form would be if he's

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Speaker 1: able to carry this out. And unlike the case with

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Speaker 1: him merging with the fly, this would be presumably merging

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Speaker 1: too conscious sentient people. I don't know what is what

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Speaker 1: is being assumed about, Like if you tried to like

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Speaker 1: fuse two humans together, what the resulting brain or mind

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Speaker 1: state would be like, Well, it's it's one of these

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Speaker 1: things that it depending on how you would look at

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Speaker 1: that basic concept. It's either horrifying and it's the it's

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Speaker 1: the destruction of self, it's the invasion of self. But

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Speaker 1: it also you could look at it as beautiful, right,

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Speaker 1: because this is what we often talk about love in

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Speaker 1: this case, right, two people becoming one. Yes, he tries

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Speaker 1: to talk about it in those terms, and obviously Geina

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Speaker 1: Davis does not see it that way quite understandable reasons.

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Speaker 1: But of course she hasn't been through the through the

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Speaker 1: plasma pool, so she doesn't she how could she understand? Right?

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Speaker 1: I know this is one of your favorite things about

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Speaker 1: the movie. Is this the plasma pool rant? Right? It's

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Speaker 1: in one of the cocaine style scenes where Jeff Goldblum

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Speaker 1: is It's it's in the early days after he's been

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Speaker 1: through the pod. He thinks, he thinks I'm not wasting away.

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Speaker 1: He thinks I'm a god, I'm amazing, I can do anything.

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Speaker 1: And he's lashing out at anybody who doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: get in the pod and try it for themselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he gets very vindictive about it, especially with with Veronica.

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Speaker 1: Like one of the quotes from that that lengthy diatribe

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Speaker 1: is you're afraid to dive into the plasma pool, aren't

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Speaker 1: You're afraid to be destroyed and recreated, aren't you, which

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Speaker 1: again ties into this the whole theme of the film,

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Speaker 1: this idea of transformation is it is something we all

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Speaker 1: want but but at the same time of the reality

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Speaker 1: of it can be can be horrifying, can be scary,

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Speaker 1: it can be frightening or horrifying. Alright, on that note,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we

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Speaker 1: come back, we will start we'll start throwing a little

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Speaker 1: bit of science at this thing. Thank alright, we're back now.

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Speaker 1: I would say the ultimate, uh, the premise of the movie.

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Speaker 1: This is not hard sci fi. This is not something

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Speaker 1: that uh, you know, maybe plausible. We just don't have

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Speaker 1: the technology yet. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Right.

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Speaker 1: And as we as we talk about this aspect of

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Speaker 1: the film and sort of like nitpick the you know,

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Speaker 1: the various aspects of teleportation, please understand that we were

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Speaker 1: not criticizing the film. We are we are using the

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Speaker 1: film to to explore some topics and we thank the

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Speaker 1: film for being able to uh uh you know, to

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Speaker 1: inspire us. So sure, it's a horror science fantasy, it's there.

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Speaker 1: It's there to uh, to to raise certain ideas about humankind,

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Speaker 1: not to critique the specific capabilities of real technology. Right. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not really apparable about teleportation. Right. Of course.

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Speaker 1: The big mishap that occurs in all this is that

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Speaker 1: the fly managers to zip into the telepod with Brundle,

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Speaker 1: and the computer, not anticipating an additional organism, incorporates that

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Speaker 1: organism into Brundle at the molecular genetic level. That's what

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Speaker 1: it says. Yeah, he's he says, uh, he's like, in

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Speaker 1: my rush to create a telepod, I accidentally created a

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Speaker 1: gene splicer as well. A very good one, it is.

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Speaker 1: It's it's extremely good. Again. Just the computer powering this

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Speaker 1: thing is as incredible as it is inept Even in

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Speaker 1: its ineptitude, it manages to achieve, you know, really godlike effects.

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Speaker 1: But one of the funny things that I remember thinking

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Speaker 1: watching this movie is wait a minute, okay, so it's

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Speaker 1: saying human goes in, fly goes in, thing comes out

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Speaker 1: that will be fifty fifty human and fly. If you're

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Speaker 1: gonna work on that basis, if you're just like comparing, well,

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Speaker 1: what kind of genomes are in here, there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other stuff in there that's not human either. I mean,

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Speaker 1: did he sterilize the inside of the telepod before he

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Speaker 1: went in? I should hope so, because of a baboon

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Speaker 1: exploded in it. Right, Yeah, So of course there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be stuff on the you know, walls inside the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's life everywhere. But then more than that,

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Speaker 1: there's also going to be stuff that he can't sterilize

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Speaker 1: because it's gonna be in him and on him. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And this should come as no surprise to regular listeners

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Speaker 1: at the show because we've discussed the microbiome quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: Because there's a there were there would have been a

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Speaker 1: lot more than two life forms in there um because

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Speaker 1: none of us are human, not by a long shot,

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Speaker 1: because we contain vast populations of bacteria, are, chia, and

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Speaker 1: fungi that are collectively known as the microbiome. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the average human has roughly thirty trillion micro organisms living

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Speaker 1: on and within them, enough to wagh and this is

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Speaker 1: this is amazing to think about roughly a half pound

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Speaker 1: of non human life. So just just imagine this scenario.

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Speaker 1: If you were to step into telepod A and then

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Speaker 1: telepod and then then you were gonna you know, zip

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Speaker 1: into telepod B and C with human emerging from C,

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Speaker 1: and then all your microbiome just left in a pile

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Speaker 1: in Pod B. That would be a half pound of stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean roughly yes, but yeah, and what like it

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Speaker 1: just by cell count it's gonna be we don't know exactly,

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Speaker 1: but the estimate is something like equal numbers of cells

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Speaker 1: or maybe a two to one or something. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: staggering when you look at some some of these numbers. Um.

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Speaker 1: These numbers that I'm reading here, by the way, come

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Speaker 1: from a January uh Simon's Foundation article titled You're Not

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Speaker 1: All Human The Wonder of Gut Microbes. They also point

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Speaker 1: out that we're talking an average of a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty different species of bacteria alone within the average person,

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Speaker 1: and that's out of six thousand possible species worldwide. The

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Speaker 1: human genome contains twenty thousand genes, while your microbiome contains

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Speaker 1: three million genes. So I got another wrinkled Okay, So

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Speaker 1: wouldn't just be your microbiome and the fly, but it

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Speaker 1: would also be the flies microbiome. Yeah, I mean we didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even get figures for that. They're also there

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Speaker 1: are parasites that live on in pray on flies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got those as well. That's assuming that Brundle himself

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Speaker 1: does not have some sort of parasite. And we don't

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Speaker 1: know what he had for dinner. He might have had

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Speaker 1: a bad uh you know, pork sandwich or something. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: you go in there with trick gnosis and then it

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Speaker 1: fuses you with the worms. Yeah, because I mean he's

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's certainly living a bit foul up in

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Speaker 1: that that loft later on, but it's not exactly pristine either.

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Speaker 1: It's like the work abode of, you know, of an

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Speaker 1: obsessed scientist. Right. Sorry, I was just looking up the

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Speaker 1: names of some fly parasites. There's some great ones. One

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Speaker 1: that I was seeing referenced in a lot of research

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Speaker 1: is called Spellingia CAMEROONI Perkins, Perkins, Perkins, the Perkins parasite.

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Speaker 1: So you get a bit of that in there too.

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Speaker 1: All right, So you have all this stuff, but potentially

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Speaker 1: in the telepod with brundle with this even this fly

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Speaker 1: thrown in the mix as well. And the computer that

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Speaker 1: is managing this this transport of of the individual and

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Speaker 1: the individuals across the room to the other telepod or

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Speaker 1: the other telepods. Uh, you know, it's having to handle

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Speaker 1: all of this information on top of just like the

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Speaker 1: basic atom, something like a trillion trillion atoms or more. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is another thing that I mean, if we want

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Speaker 1: to get serious about teleportation for a second, I would

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Speaker 1: argue that it is essentially impossible. Right. First of all,

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Speaker 1: the amount of energy that it would take to disassemble

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Speaker 1: your body and then reassemble it in another place is

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Speaker 1: just unfathomable. Um. But also like how would the information

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Speaker 1: be managed? It's too much information to sample and keep

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Speaker 1: track of. I think teleportation, I'm sorry to say, it's

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Speaker 1: just not a technologically feasible proposition, even in the distant future. Right.

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Speaker 1: Of course, if you watch enough science fiction about it,

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Speaker 1: you probably feel pretty okay about that, because because teleporter mishaps, uh,

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Speaker 1: they kind of compose one of my favorite like subgenres

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Speaker 1: or subsub genres of science fiction. Like I'm a big

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Speaker 1: fan of Stephen King's The Jaunt, which is a different

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Speaker 1: and maybe in some ways more possible. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's a different take on it. For sure that we

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Speaker 1: would require a different episode to break down the science off.

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Speaker 1: We shouldn't spoil that one, but that that is a

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Speaker 1: great horrifying short story. Yeah. Uh. The other one I

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Speaker 1: think of is in Spaceballs, when the guy gets his

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Speaker 1: his butt on his front, it gets the bottom half

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Speaker 1: of his body backwards. Oh man, I haven't seen Spaceballs

387
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Speaker 1: in a very long time, so I forgot all about that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there you find example Star Trek. Of course

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Speaker 1: you had had regular use of teleportation technology and occasionally

390
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Speaker 1: would explore mishaps in interesting ways. But even if it's

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Speaker 1: not malfunctioning, I mean, I think something that is at

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Speaker 1: some point explored on Star Trek. I don't I've heard

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Speaker 1: they get there at some point of people contemplating the

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Speaker 1: fact that what's really happening every time you are teleported

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Speaker 1: is that you die and a new version of you

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Speaker 1: is created. So it's like your consciousness does not survive

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Speaker 1: the process. You are disintegrated, and then there's just a

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Speaker 1: copy of you, and that that copy if you goes

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Speaker 1: on with your business. Yeah, if I remember correctly, there's

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Speaker 1: an episode of the like nineties reboot of The Outer

401
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 1: Limits that explores this as well. Um, but yeah, that's

402
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Speaker 1: a whole other side to it too. Yeah, the idea

403
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Speaker 1: that every time you teleport, you die. But then I

404
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Speaker 1: guess again, on the other hand, every time you teleport

405
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Speaker 1: you were reborn. Uh sure, well it might be great

406
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Speaker 1: for the version of you that's reborn, but that's not

407
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't get to be you. You're done. Yeah, well,

408
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: well but you know he was annihilated down to the

409
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Speaker 1: flast atom, so you know, he was completely recycled. So anyway,

410
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Speaker 1: just just contemplating like the sheer number of life forms

411
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Speaker 1: that would have been in that telepod. I think it's

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Speaker 1: just a fun um, you know, intellectual exercise, and also

413
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Speaker 1: creates all sorts of new horrible scenarios, like, indeed, what

414
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Speaker 1: if you weren't just merging a fly in a human

415
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Speaker 1: together into one being. What if it was all of

416
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Speaker 1: those things? What if it was just cut the fly out,

417
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Speaker 1: the flies shoot out of the pod before it goes off.

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Speaker 1: What if it's just Brundle and his micro I am

419
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Speaker 1: all the occupants of the microbiome being fused into one

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Speaker 1: life form Brundle hyphen E cole I. Yeah, yeah, plus

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Speaker 1: it's us everything else, it's it's it's crazy again. I

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Speaker 1: love just trying to imagine what that consists of. Now

423
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: here's another question that I think comes up. There's, of course,

424
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 1: when when he's trying to figure out what happened in

425
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: the movie, he's asking the computer in that wonderful way

426
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: that like, uh, nineteen eighties computers functioned in science fiction

427
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: where you could just have conversations with them. Yeah, they're

428
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: just a natural language input and response system. You know

429
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: what movie also does that? The thing? Do you remember

430
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: in the remake of the Thing, when Wilfred Brimley is

431
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 1: like asking questions and here he's like how long before

432
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: all humans on Earth are infected? And it's like it

433
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: gives him a time frame and then he gets the idea.

434
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: He's like, well, we're not getting out of here. That

435
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: was used in Alien as well. Remember was it mother

436
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: that they would have conversations with? That's right, yes, see,

437
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: this is what I want to see come back in

438
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: science fiction. I want to see computers like that where

439
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: people type in questions and they're given answers right there

440
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: on the screen, but the answers are a little stilted,

441
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's not perfect, but yeah, it's

442
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: natural language for some reason. So when when he asked

443
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: about what happening, looks into it he sees, okay, there

444
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: was a fly in there, and then he asked, was

445
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: the fly absorbed by Brundle And then the computer says no, uh,

446
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: they were merged for some confusion, something to that effect.

447
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: But it makes me wonder, Okay, what if you had

448
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: Brundle get into the telepod and he goes from telepod

449
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: A to Telepod B and in the process maybe I

450
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: guess the microbiome wasn't factored into the equation. And what

451
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: if the microbiome is annihilated, shot over to another pod,

452
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: or somehow absorbed in a way that makes it completely

453
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: go away, and you just have Brundle human coming out

454
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: on the other end. What would that be like? Well,

455
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: he would not be the only organism that's ever been

456
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: through this. In fact, this is a condition that's sometimes

457
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: used in the lab to study the effects of the microbiome.

458
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I think we've talked on the show before about research using,

459
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: for example, germ free mice. This is sometimes called nobiosis

460
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: or nobiotic conditions, where it just means like when you

461
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: have control and knowledge of all of the life forms

462
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: living within one larger life form, and often control and

463
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: knowledge of that would mean that there are none in there. Um.

464
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, you can create germ free mice that have

465
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: no microbiome. They're sterile, they're just mice. There's no bacteria,

466
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: there's no archaea living in or on them, and this

467
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: has some very strange effects. I think we actually talked

468
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: about one study looking at this in our episode on

469
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: the Tingler when we were talking about indo parasites and fear,

470
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: and I guess I don't know if it would make

471
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: sense to talk about the the internal microbiome is a parasite,

472
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: but whatever, you know, the symbiosis and and fear. Well,

473
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: sometimes the line between parasite and symbiosis is less easy

474
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: to define anyway, and sometimes there is there's change over

475
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: time in that relationship. That's an extremely good point. I'll

476
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: come back to that in just a second. But the

477
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: example from the Tinkler episode was that it turns out

478
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: that for some reason, in mice that are germ free,

479
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: if they don't have a functioning microbiome like a normal

480
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: mouse would they have inhibited fear response. They have trouble

481
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: associating specific memories with the fear response, so they do

482
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: not generate fear of things the same way normal mice do.

483
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: Isn't that strange? Why would the why would the gut

484
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: flora have anything to say about you being able to

485
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: learn to be afraid of things? Yeah? I mean this

486
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: this really gets down to, like what is so important

487
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: and exciting about the microbiome research is that you know,

488
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about this a little before we came

489
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: in here. Um, it's been pointed out there, like the

490
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: real importance of the microbiome, right, placing it on the

491
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: same level as like an organ, seems to come online

492
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: more in like the late nineties, Um, after this film certainly.

493
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: But the idea that that the micro organisms were important

494
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: to life that predates that I saw like a quote

495
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: from Louis Pasture for example. It's pointing this out that,

496
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: like it's that that micro organisms are vital for human life. Oh. Absolutely.

497
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: And one thing that I think is worth pointing out.

498
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: I mean, they're all kinds of things that are are

499
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: microbiotic do for us. One thing is related to you

500
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: talking about the line between parasitism and just an endosymbiosis.

501
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: Our immune systems are trained by constantly being an interaction

502
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: with the microbiome. Uh. And so there are tons of

503
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, micro organisms in and on our body that

504
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: are not harmful to us, but they live in a

505
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: kind of uneasy alliance within the immune system that they

506
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: are managed buy And that's a lot of what our

507
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 1: immune system does. Our immune system is not just you know,

508
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: fighting the flu when you get infected. It's also managing

509
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: the body's relationship with its microbiota. Yeah, so it's not

510
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: it's not just say, you know, the Roman allegiance and

511
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: out to conquer territory or to fight an adversary. It

512
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 1: is the it is a like a police force. So

513
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: looking around a little bit about this, obviously, the scenario

514
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: of all your microbiome being teleported out of you is

515
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: not realistic. No, and you would not want that to happen.

516
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: But I do wonder like, is that something that would

517
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: just pretty much be immediate death? I mean, is it

518
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: something you could survive? Well, you know, I was looking

519
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: at an article that deals this a little bit, uh,

520
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: titled life in a World without Microbes by Gilbert and Newfeld,

521
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 1: published in Plos Biology, and uh, the authors are mainly

522
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: dealing with really and even you know, you know, larger scenario.

523
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: They're looking at, what if all the you know, um

524
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: micro biological life, all all the bacteria on Earth were

525
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: to just perish. What would happen? That would not be good?

526
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: That it would it would not be good. But they

527
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: write that it would quote be false to claim that

528
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: macroscopic life cannot exist without microbes. However, although life would

529
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: persist in the absence of micro robes, both the quantity

530
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: and quality of life would be reduced dramatically. So they

531
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: write that humans could get by fine without microbes. Certainly

532
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: for a few days. We probably wouldn't even notice it,

533
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: and you know, we can would continue to be able

534
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: to eat and digest food, they point out. But uh,

535
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: their main focus of course on this is the idea

536
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: that all the you know, the the the the microbiotic

537
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: population of the world would be wiped out. And if

538
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: that were to take place, they think it would lead

539
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: to societal collapse in about a year, with pockets of

540
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: humans surviving for perhaps centuries after that. So, you know,

541
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: generations of humans would continue to live on but that

542
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: ultimately they would probably die out as well. Every single

543
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: natural ecosystem depends on microbes, and without their activities, every

544
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: ecosystem would begin to break down. Now, as for the

545
00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: individual brundle, the what the the nobiotic brundle um, it's

546
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: it seems like he would he would probably be fine,

547
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: He might even feel pretty good but at first, but

548
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: he would he would almost certainly need to repopulate his

549
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: body with with microbiota, uh, you know, And we see examples,

550
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: of course, cases where people say I have part of

551
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: their gut floor wiped out by antibiotics, um or some

552
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: other condition, they're able to to, you know, to use

553
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: something like a fecal transplant, for example, to reintroduce the

554
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: necessary uh microbes into the gut. And of course there

555
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: are other you know, like probiotic techniques as well. So

556
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think his condition would be hopeless

557
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: or anything. Uh probably would not make an interesting movie.

558
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: Would not be healthy to stay that way again, I mean,

559
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: it would probably have some drastically negative effects on the

560
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: immune response. Right. So certainly if he was like, oh,

561
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: I feel great, and I'm you know, I'm glad I

562
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: got all those microbes out of my body, and then

563
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: he were to, like say, do it on a weekly basis,

564
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: that would not be good. All Right, on that note,

565
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna take another break. But when we come back

566
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: to discuss a little bit. We've been a lot of

567
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: time already talking about what could go wrong with teleportation,

568
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: and certainly that is kind of the the central exploration

569
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: of the film itself. But after the break, I want

570
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: to talk about what could potentially go right, Alright, we're back,

571
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: all right. So we were talking about how in the

572
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: Fly remake, when Seth Brundel Jeff Goldblum first comes out

573
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: of the telepod the first time he teleports himself, he

574
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: thinks that it has done something wonderful for him. We

575
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: we compared him to somebody on cocaine, just like thinking

576
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: I am a golden god. That's right. I mean, he's

577
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: just completely renewed, full of optimism. He's just he's just

578
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: on fire. He's also though, I mean, it makes him aggressive, unreasonable, manic,

579
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: and increasingly so with time. Yeah. But but at first

580
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: he's convinced that this has been I mean, it's been

581
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: kind of a plasma pool baptism. He's been reborn and

582
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 1: you know when he's again, when he starts accusing Ronnie

583
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: of of not being you know, into the idea. You know,

584
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: he's saying, Oh, you're afraid of the plasma pool. You're

585
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: afraid to be destroyed and remade in it, you know.

586
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: Uh and in this kind of you know, echoing you know,

587
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: religious concepts of rebirth, of death and rebirth and renewal. Uh. So,

588
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's gonna it would be interesting

589
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: to discuss this a little bit, like how how could

590
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: a teleportation scenario like this potentially leave you feeling like

591
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: you're a new person or a renewed person. I think

592
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: one of the other things to look at is Okay, certainly,

593
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: I think the most likely scenario, again, assuming the teleportation

594
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: goes off flawlessly, no fly parts, no merging your body

595
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: with any coli or anything like that, you just emerge

596
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: what you were before, except you feel different, You feel renewed.

597
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: And uh and I think you know this is the

598
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: case where clearly Brundle need not actually be any different

599
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: to feel differently. You know, just look two examples of

600
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: religious rights of baptism and faith healing. For example, the

601
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: telepod experience might work absolutely perfectly, which means you're no

602
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: different than you know, when you emerge on the other

603
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: side than when you'd uh you know, first climbed in.

604
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: And the same could be said when you were, say,

605
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: baptized at a church, or when you're touched by a

606
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: faith healer like a televangelist or something you know, uh,

607
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, outside of you know, obviously you could be

608
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: introduced to some new microbes in either of those cases,

609
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: in any of these cases, but other than that, you're

610
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: still going to be pretty much the same. But you

611
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: could feel elated. You could even feel like your pain

612
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: has been relieved or your body has been healed because

613
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: you know, naturally, as humans, we encounter physical illnesses, and

614
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: we encounter you know, psychological barriers of varying form, origin,

615
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: and resiliency, and depending on what the issue is, we

616
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: have a great number of science based treatments and cures. Uh.

617
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: We have powerful psychological tools as well, but we also

618
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: readily engage in practices that rest on, you know, many

619
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: times very shaky scientific ground or they just fall just

620
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: flat into the domain of ritual, written religion and superstition

621
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: and UH and a lot of us do this, uh.

622
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: Their varying stats on this, I think, but one once

623
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: that I was looking at came from a two thousand

624
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: sixteen Baylor University epidemiology study. They found that nearly nine

625
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: out of ten Americans have relied upon healing prayer at

626
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: some point in their lives. Now, most of these individuals

627
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: do so alongside actual medical care UM, and I've seen

628
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: cases where embracing both has been argued to help push

629
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: medical care and say, highly religious places UM. But this

630
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: particular study didn't tackle the perceived success of of healing prayer.

631
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: Though a lot of studies have weighed in on this question,

632
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: some quite controversially. Some some critics in the scientific community

633
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: have have urged the end of clinical trials for quote,

634
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: highly implausible treatments UM, because you know, well you can

635
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: argue that there there there may be room for some

636
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: alternative medical treatments to actually work reasons that we don't

637
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: quite understand yet scientifically. You know, be a some sort

638
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: of you know rare um HERB that's used traditionally somewhere,

639
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: and maybe scientists just haven't explored it enough to see

640
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: it actually has some sort of of an effect. UM.

641
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: And you can argue that some rituals have psychological virtue

642
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, such perhaps you know, perhaps

643
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: they have elements of mindfulness to them and that that's useful.

644
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: But a lot of this stuff ultimately ends up working

645
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: to some degree because of the placebo effect. Sure, and

646
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: that's one thing where I think even if you believe, say,

647
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: in some cases prayer works like intercessory prayer changes outcomes,

648
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: you would you would have to still acknowledge that in

649
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: some cases it's also going to be due to placebo effect,

650
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: and you aren't always going to know which is which,

651
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: Like we know the placebo effect happens either way. Yeah,

652
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: But then the weird thing about placebo effect is you

653
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: also have to kind of you have to believe in

654
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: it for it to work, um or you have to

655
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: believe in the thing that is working via the placebo effect.

656
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: You I just I mean, I don't know, I get

657
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: if you could just believe in the placebo effect and

658
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: just be like, oh, mighty placebo effect, heal my my

659
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: body pains. But anyway, well, I mean, there are some

660
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: things that I would say, are they're gonna have placebo

661
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: like implications that transcend just your your personal cognitive beliefs

662
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: are awareness. Like, uh, one example I would use is

663
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: that you talk about faith healing scenarios and how sometimes

664
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: people go to a faith healer get hands laid on

665
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: them and they actually feel better. They're like, my pain

666
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: went away. Oftentimes it returns soon thereafter, but it does

667
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: really seem to go away for a short time. And

668
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: I would say something that's probably going on in a

669
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: lot of these cases is a high is a powerful

670
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: social effect. You're you're in a group with a lot

671
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: of people, and you are feeling profoundly socially included for

672
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: a moment, all these different people paying attention to you

673
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: and caring about your problem. That that is a profound

674
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: and somewhat rare situation to be in. Yeah, I mean,

675
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: in in some of those cases, to people are going

676
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: to tell you it's going to be okay, even if

677
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: it's probably maybe not going to be okay. But sometimes

678
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: nothing helps in the short term like a soothing voice

679
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: telling you that right right. Um, I mean I bet

680
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 1: almost everybody listening has had the feeling of like you're

681
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: worried about something something in your body, and you go

682
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: to the doctor and it's just like as soon as

683
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: the doctor tells you it's okay, your complaint just vanishes. Yeah, yeah,

684
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: I've I've had that experience where and then later someone says,

685
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: well what did they say, and they're like, I don't know.

686
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: I kind of stopped listening after they said everything was

687
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: all right, you know, or like it. It didn't like

688
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: I was so wrapped up in just the initial explanation

689
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: that I didn't so call the information in so at

690
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: any rate, we're not going to go into excessive detail

691
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: in the placebo effect. We've discussed it um in more

692
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: depth in the past. But uh, for this episode, I

693
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: was looking at great expectations the evolutionary psychology of faith

694
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: healing in the placebo effect by one Nicholas Humphreys, and

695
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: I thought he made for one thing, he made some

696
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: concise points about this entirely inward experience. Uh. He also

697
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: shared a wonderful quote from Plato at the beginning that

698
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: can be applied to our understanding of the placebo effect.

699
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: Plato wrote, I said that the cure itself is a

700
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: certain leaf, but in addition to the drug, there is

701
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: a certain charm, which is someone chance when he makes

702
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: use of it. The medicine altogether restores him to health.

703
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: But without the charm, there is no profit from the leaf. Well,

704
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: that would be a very good point. It would not

705
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: be helpful to slip somebody placebo pills. In order for

706
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: a placebo medication to be effective, the person needs to

707
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: be aware that it's being prescribed and to take it.

708
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: You can't do the thing you do to the dog,

709
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: where you like stick the tick pill and a bunch

710
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: of peanut butter or something exactly. Yeah, Humphries stresses. For

711
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: the placebo effect to work, the patient has to be

712
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: aware of the tree. Meant, they have to believe in

713
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: the treatment due to experience or reputation. They have to

714
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: expect improvements afterwards. And then these experiences, these expectations influence

715
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: the patient's capacity for self cure. So um, you know.

716
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: To bring it back to Brundle, uh, you know, Brundle

717
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: can't just be slipped through the telepod in his sleep.

718
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: He's knowingly going through it. He knows what is going

719
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: to happen, that his body is going to be taken

720
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: down and then reassembled. And then you know, either you know,

721
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: proactively or retroactively begins to uh as sign certain um

722
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: you know, ideas of of rebirth to that equation, where

723
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: does all that language come from? When he starts ranting,

724
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: it's as if he I mean, he's ranting quickly about

725
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: the plasma pool and everything. It's like he's already had

726
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: these phrases kicking around in his head. Right. Yeah, he's

727
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: been thinking about it, he just hasn't been ranting about

728
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: it to his um uh, to his girlfriend now. In

729
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: this paper, Humphreys ultimately explores the idea that was proposed

730
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: by others that the cebo effect we we see today,

731
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: uh you know, are seeming tendency to experience it and

732
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: its use in traditional healing rights throughout history means that

733
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: the placebo effect and may have been subject to strong

734
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: pressure from natural selection. Humphreys contends that the placebo effect

735
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: is probably not inherently adaptive because sometimes it is also maladaptive,

736
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: but that evolution may well have helped shape a talent

737
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: in humans for quote, a tradition of self deception and delusion,

738
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: because he points out that if you're feeling back pain

739
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: and then you take some snake oil and you feel

740
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: better afterwards, without you know, obviously, without actually healing the

741
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: underlying condition, you're missing the importance of the pain because quote,

742
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: your back pain was designed by natural selection to protect you.

743
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: It's warning you something is wrong and like, don't keep

744
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: putting pressure onto on that foot or something. Yeah, So

745
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting and point, and it was.

746
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about, um, you know, the role

747
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: of natural selection to what extent it might have played

748
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: in the placebo effect and in our ability to self

749
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: deceive about about the curative properties of various non curative methods. Well,

750
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: obviously our brains have evolved to to be easily deceived

751
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 1: in certain scenarios, and it's interesting to study what those

752
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: scenarios are and try to figure out what evolutionary pressures

753
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: would have driven that. So obviously one way they work

754
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: is sometimes we can generate a kind of confidence that

755
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: overcomes negative physiological feedback. Uh, And there there must I mean,

756
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: you can imagine scenarios where that's also adaptive. Obviously, you

757
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: don't want to just be ignoring pain because pains useful information.

758
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you want the body to

759
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: have some kind of override mechanism. For said, when maybe

760
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: maybe your foot's in pain, you shouldn't be putting pressure

761
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: on it. But there's a tiger and you've got to

762
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: run right now. Obviously, it would not be advantageous for

763
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: the body to just in cyst on you staying put

764
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: even in that scenario. And there might be other scenarios

765
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 1: other than like immediate physical danger. There might be cases

766
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: where there are social signals, social cues that override our

767
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: natural physiological feedback mechanisms. Absolutely so, I think again, coming

768
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: back to the bundle scenario, you can well imagine someone

769
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: going through a telepod uh situation, teleporting their body being

770
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: destroyed and remade, and then feeling renewed about it even

771
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: if nothing has changed. They're still the same baseline person

772
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: they were before. Like I'm wondering, like, surely this idea

773
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: has been explored in science fiction before, Like maybe even

774
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: in Star Trek fiction, Like does someone get obsessed with

775
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: using the teleporter They're like I'm feeling a little down,

776
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm going through the teleporter. We're just gonna gonna reset

777
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: for the day, Like that's better than a quick shower

778
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: or a power nap, right, But for the rest of

779
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: the episode, I thought we might explore just a few

780
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 1: you know, relatively briefly. I think, um, how going through

781
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: the teleporter could potentially actually change you actually uh you

782
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 1: know alter say, your your mind and your mood. Okay,

783
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: so that's made some kind of physical change to the

784
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: body and and now you are now brundle fly is different. Yeah.

785
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: So I think one way to look at, of course,

786
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: is neurological because again like the complexities of teleportation or

787
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: again just fantastic and uh and and and not really

788
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: realistic compared to you know, our understanding of science. But like,

789
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: how do you imagine just the moving of one mind

790
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: state from from here to there, from my brain, uh

791
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: to the other teleporter? Well it uh, teleportation naturally invites

792
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: questions about the connection between the mind and the physical

793
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: brain because again, you know, we were talking earlier about

794
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: the idea that teleportation would almost certainly kill you if

795
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 1: it could actually be done, and probably can't even be done.

796
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: But imagine you could be destroyed down to you know,

797
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: every last atom, disassembled and then rebuilt as a perfect

798
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: copy somewhere else. What reason do you have to believe

799
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: that your consciousness would be continued there instead of it's

800
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: just you know, lights out. This gets into the whole

801
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: ship of THESEUS situation, right, is the is the copy

802
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: of the original, etcetera. Yeah, when we've talked about this

803
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: in previous episodes with like the Donald Davidson Swampman thought experiment,

804
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: where you know your imagine you are struck by lightning

805
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: and a swamp and atomized, and then nearby a a

806
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: tree gets struck by lightning that rearranges its atoms in

807
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: a way that just happens to be an exact copy

808
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: of you down to including all of your memories and everything.

809
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: Davidson's question was, is that still you even if it

810
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: goes and recognizes all your friends and all that, but

811
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: that those atoms that body has never actually met your

812
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: friends before. It's just a coincidence. And I guess another

813
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: question to add on I don't think Davidson addresses this

814
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 1: is is there any reason to think that your consciousness

815
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: would continue and that other thing? And I don't know

816
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: if we have any reason to say it would. Yeah. Uh, Now,

817
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the lightning because because this

818
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: brings brings me to the next point I wanted to

819
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: make is that assuming you're the same person in Telepod

820
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: B that you were in Telepod A, and assuming that

821
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: for the most part, there are no changes, one way

822
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: that you could see like an alteration in mood or

823
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: personality is if there was some imperfection in the copy,

824
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: saying it essentially damaged your brain and some uh in

825
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 1: some fashion in reproducing you on the other side. And

826
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: uh and we have you know, plenty of examples of

827
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: of this in science. We've discussed numerous cases on the

828
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: show before where brain injuries and alterations to the brain

829
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: can impact mood. And one of my favorite uh and

830
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: and also I think it's great because it's kind of

831
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: it's essentially a positive tale of this sort of thing.

832
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: UH is the case of Dr Tony Csuria, an orthopedic

833
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: surgeon who was electrocuted in a lightning strike and then

834
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: afterwards began to hear music in his head and developed

835
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: what has been described as an insatiable desire to learn

836
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: to put up to learn listen to the piano, and

837
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: learned to play the piano, and then he eventually became

838
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: a composer and a performer. But did he die? Did

839
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: he die in these No? No, he's he's very much alive. Still. Wait,

840
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: I have a u I'm gonna be using this word wrong.

841
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: Does electrocuted necessarily mean you died? Oh? Now this is

842
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: good question. Perhaps I'm using the word wrong. Oh, perhaps

843
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: I've been using it wrong. I don't know. I always

844
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: assumed electrocuted means dead, but well, just in case to

845
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: be sure, he was. He suffered an electric shock via

846
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: lightning strike, did not die, but afterwards, Yeah, he heard

847
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: music in his head. He wanted to play the piano.

848
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: He learned to play the piano. He became a composer. Uh.

849
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: And and he's cool. Yeah, he's written books. I understand.

850
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 1: He's what's sometimes referred to as an acquired savant, someone

851
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 1: who exhibits extraordinary abilities after sustaining central nervous system damage

852
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: or disease. Now, of course, this is not the only

853
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: case of somebody going through a large electrical stimulation of

854
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: the nervous system and coming out of it feeling better.

855
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: This is actually a trick. I know. Electroshock therapy gets

856
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: a bad reputation and fiction and stuff, but for some

857
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: people it is actually a very helpful intervention for say,

858
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: depression that resists other treatments. Uh. You know, sometimes there

859
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: are brain states that are very negative where electro convulsive

860
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: therapy applying an electric current to the brain causes some

861
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: kind of internal reset that gets people out of negative

862
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: mental scenarios. Well, yeah, so you could you could imagine

863
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: and as long as we're imagining teleportation, you know, you

864
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: can imagine a situation where in recreating the brain, or

865
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: in the process of the brain coming back online in

866
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: pod b uh that you essentially have it's like an

867
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: electro shock to the brain. Uh. And then of course

868
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 1: there are plenty of other examples of people whose moods, personalities,

869
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: and cognitive abilities have been impacted, in any cases negatively

870
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: impacted by changes or injuries to to the So say,

871
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of room for that scenario

872
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: to to take place again if if you actually had

873
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: teleportation technology uh. And then to come back to the microbiome,

874
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: I think that's another place to consider. So, assuming that

875
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: you don't have your entire microbiome uh fused with your

876
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: genetic code, assuming that your microbiome is not dumped out

877
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: into another telepod left to just sort of melt on

878
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: the floor and have to be scrubbed up by the

879
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: telepod scrabber. Um, what a job? Imagine? Like, what else

880
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: could happen? Right? Like, what if it just readjusted your

881
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 1: your microbiome to a certain degree because we know we're

882
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: still learning more about this, but we know that the

883
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: microbiome has has an impact on our on our personality,

884
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: on our moods, on our cognitive ability like it's it's

885
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: it's roots run deep. Yes, and there are ways to

886
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: have a healthier or less healthy microbiome. Uh. I mean again,

887
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: we already referenced fegal transplants, and this is an actual

888
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 1: cure for some diseases. Yeah, so you could potentially you

889
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: could have a situation where okay, the teleporter didn't quite

890
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: know how to how to handle the entire microbiome. Some

891
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: things maybe through, some things were left out. I don't

892
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: want to even explore the possibility of some individual microorganisms

893
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: being fused into all new micro organisms, because the Lord

894
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: knows what that would consist of. But um, but you

895
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: could imagine where you might emerge with maybe an improved

896
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: microbiome by pure accident, in the same way that not

897
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: everyone that is struck by lightning turns into a piano virtuoso,

898
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: you know. But you could have a situation where you

899
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: clearly have a situation where at least one person was

900
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: and you could, I guess consumably have a situation where

901
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: one person survived a teleportation and came out on the

902
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: other end with improved microbiome and maybe a you know,

903
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: improved health or even mental health due to it. You know,

904
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,959
Speaker 1: I know I've read in uh, looking at the downsides

905
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: of when he comes out, So he comes out feeling

906
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: very purified, but he's also a jerk, you know, He's like,

907
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: he comes out being aggressive and mannic and stuff. And

908
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 1: I know I've read about imbalances in the gut microbiome

909
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: of dogs possibly leading to aggression and dogs. Interesting. Yeah, Um,

910
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: I was looking around a little bit about like other

911
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: things that can adjust your microbiome. Like one that's of

912
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: course being studied is how space travel can change your microbiome.

913
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: And the most obvious factor, of course is radiation. But

914
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: one of the studies I was looking at was was

915
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: was saying, Okay, well, radiation accounts for some of what

916
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: we're seeing, but we think it like micro gravity is

917
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: playing a role as well, so uh, and then other

918
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: environmental conditions that they're still you know, figuring out. So

919
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: it's just such an amazing revelation to again just to

920
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: come back to the power of the microbiome and just

921
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: how how close it is to us how it is

922
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: essentially like an organ. You are a person, but you're

923
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: also a world. You're an environment. Your body is a wonderland. Yeah,

924
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: that's what's in the plasma. Fool. All right, Well, hopefully

925
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: we gave everybody some some additional food for thought on

926
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: the Fly and on teleportation, and we didn't even get

927
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: into some of the things people were probably expecting, like

928
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: discussion of fly anatomy and feeding by vomiting up acid

929
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: on things. But who knows, maybe we could come back

930
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: and do that in the future. We also didn't talk

931
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: about the Simpsons episode Fly Versus Fly. Yes, yeah, yeah,

932
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 1: it goes to great places. I love it when Homer

933
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 1: drags one of the telepods in front of the toilet

934
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: and tries to think avoid climbing the stairs. Y. Yeah,

935
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: lots of reckless use of the telepod, which I enjoy.

936
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: All right, so let us know what you think. Are

937
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: you a big fan of the original Fly, You're a

938
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: fan of Cronenberg's Fly? Are you like me disappointed that

939
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: Cronenberg has not gotten to make his sequel to The Fly?

940
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: He apparently wrote a screenplay and everything. Really yeah, and uh,

941
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: well wait, there was the Fly too, I've never seen it. Well,

942
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: the Fly two is is a gross monster movie. Um,

943
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: it's not certainly not as contemplative as Cronenberg's original. But

944
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: if you go into it just expecting kind of a

945
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: big monster movie, UM, with some teleportation Shenanigan's uh, you know,

946
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: it's it's entertaining in its own right. But Cronenberg has,

947
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: at least in past years he's mentioned a script that

948
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: he wrote that and he's kind of kg about it,

949
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: like it's it seems like it's maybe not a direct

950
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: sequel to the Fly, but it is very much about teleportation.

951
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: I don't know to what extent, like you know, merging

952
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: of of you know, genomes comes into it, there's any

953
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: kind of you know, chimera in it at all. And

954
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: and maybe it's ultimately more exciting about, you know, the

955
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: possibility that maybe it doesn't have have that. Maybe it's

956
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: more about some of these ideas we've been discussing here

957
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: in this episode about teleportation. What if it's from the

958
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: flies perspective and it's about the horrors of becoming part human,

959
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: that would be interesting. I would I would watch that.

960
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: So I still hold out hope that one day we'll

961
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: see I mean, I would love to see Cronenberg returned

962
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: to direct at all. I don't think he's directed in

963
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: several years, but I would love to see his his

964
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,439
Speaker 1: vision for a Fly sequel come to life. Failing that,

965
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: Gina Davis could write and direct. Yeah, sure, uh really.

966
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: Ultimately the end of the day, I'm just I just

967
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: want more teleportation movies. That's that's all I want, all right.

968
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other

969
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find

970
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: us wherever you get your podcast. If you go to

971
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: stuff to Bow your Mind dot com, that will shoot

972
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: you over to the I Heart listing for this show.

973
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: But you'll find us wherever you get your shows these days,

974
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: wherever that is. Just rate and review and subscribe. Those

975
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: are the things that help us out huge thanks as

976
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Sethan Nicholis Johnson. If

977
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

978
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic

979
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hello, you can email

980
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com.

981
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind It's pret auction of iHeart

982
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

983
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,200
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984
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:16,279
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