1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And this is part two of our 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: two partner on women in comics and Cartooning because A 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: it would be really challenging to fit everything about the 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: history and current status of women in cartooning into one podcast, 7 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: but b because when we mentioned that we were going 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: to do this topic, we got so much positive feedback 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: from stuff Mom Never Told You fans, So I think 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: that people wanted perhaps a two partner on this. I 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: think they did too, because I mean one would not 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: be enough. Considering when we asked on Twitter at Mom's 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: podcast and on Facebook for people's favorite lady cartoonists and 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: comic book artists, we received so many names and should 15 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: should I read a few carols? Yeah, let's let's hit 16 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: some well. One of the favorites that was mentioned a 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: lot Noel Stevenson, Fiona Staples, Kate Beaton of course from 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: Hark of Vagrant, Gail Simone from Birds of Prey, from 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: the Comic Book World. We also had Linda Barry, Ross 20 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: chast Katie Cook, Emma Rios, Emily Carroll, and on and 21 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: on and on, including Sarah c Anderson. Yeah, Sarah c Anderson, 22 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: who sent us a fabulously sweet letter saying that she 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: had listened to our our Women Funny episode and appreciated 24 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: that we confirmed that, yes, shockingly, women are funny. And 25 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: then she said, have you considered doing an episode on 26 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: women in comics and cartooning? And I was able to 27 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: fire off an email and tell her, Sarah, we are 28 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: doing a two parter, and yeah, she not only um 29 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: piped up when we put it out there on social 30 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: media about like who were your favorite cartoonists, but she 31 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: also was someone that came recommended and with her letter 32 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: to us, she included uh, copies of her comics and 33 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: they are hilarious and adorable. And as I told Sarah 34 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: and in the email to her, I've actually seen your 35 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: comics before online. Like I have chuckled to myself about 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: her strip about wanting to stay in her in your pajamas, 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: I can fully identify with that as well as the 38 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: one about not being able to pronounce words because you 39 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: are a bookworm and you've only read them, so you 40 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: don't know how to say them. Oh, what's happened to 41 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: me too, it's embarrassing it's happened to me on this podcast, 42 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: But I comfort myself with knowing that, well, at least 43 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: I knew the word yeah, you knew what it meant, yeah, 44 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: to know how to say it. But considering though all 45 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: of the names, and honestly, those were just a handful 46 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: of the dozens and dozens and dozens of names that 47 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: we've gotten, we're compiling all of them into a post 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: at stuff Mom Never Told You dot com so we 49 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: can all share and find new amazing comics and artists. Um. 50 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 1: But it seems like, based on this, it's a great 51 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: time to be a woman in cartooning or illustrating or comics. 52 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: Were kind of blending all of them together for the 53 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: purpose of simplicity in this podcast, Too Parter, and we 54 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: received a number of cartoonists, illustrators, and comic book artists. Um. 55 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: And it seems like it's a great time because there 56 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: are all these women making all these hilarious and beautiful 57 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: and insightful and poignant pieces of work and getting some 58 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: high level recognition for it. Yeah. Like Alison Bechdel, for instance, 59 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: she created Dikes to Watch out For and Fun Home. 60 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: She received a MacArthur grant In and of course Beckdel. 61 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: You should recognize her name from the Bechdel test, which 62 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: Kristen and I talked about. It's basically the test that 63 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: you can put to movies to say, are there at 64 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: least two women characters who talked to each other about 65 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: something other than men? Yeah, and you would be surprised 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: how a few films past that test. And I actually 67 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: read Fun Home after we did that podcast on Beckdel, 68 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: and if you haven't read it, it's a fantastic graphic 69 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: novel that's actually been turned into a musical now as well, 70 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: and I have a feeling it's been optioned for a 71 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: film too. Um, but it's great and you should read 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: it and revel in her incredible storytelling through drow Rings 73 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: draw Rings well. Also, inten Jen Sorenson became the first 74 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: woman to ever win the her Block Prize for political cartooning, 75 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: and we talked a little bit about women in political 76 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: and editorial cartoons in part one, really just focusing in 77 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: on suffrage cartoons in the early twentieth century, and also 78 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years in the mainstream comic 79 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: book industry, there's been a lot of talk and action 80 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: regarding women and comics. Because one of the giant things 81 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: that happened is that Marvel writer Jason Aaron received a 82 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: lot of praise and a lot of hate from making 83 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: for a woman. And this is not like creating a 84 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: new god or goddess. This is making the character of 85 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: four a woman instead of a man now. And this 86 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: is following on the heels of the debut of the 87 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: new Miss Marvel now a Pakistani teenager, Kamala Khan. And 88 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: while all this is going on, you have industry women 89 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: like Kelly Sue Deconi, who is a writer, not an artist, 90 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: but was one of the women called out by stuff 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: Never told You fans um. She retooled female Captain Marvel 92 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: to be stronger and more heroic rather than just set dressing. 93 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: And the comic has also been really leading the charge 94 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: to address gender dynamics within the industry at large. So 95 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of conversation, a lot of calling out 96 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: of perhaps uh systemic sexism happening, um examinations of the 97 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: depiction of female characters in comic books. So this is 98 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: definitely an important time for gender and comics and cartoons. Yeah, 99 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: because I mean, the creators of Miss Marvel themselves were 100 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: shocked at just how popular, just how strong the response 101 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: to her was. Um and for instance, thor, I mean, 102 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: if we're talking about how common main women characters are, 103 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: four is just the eighth Marvel title to feature a 104 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: lead female protagonist. So small strides, yeah, and I mean 105 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: small strides indeed, because nonetheless, the Capital C comics industry 106 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: and its audience does remain overwhelmingly male dominated. And um 107 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: Walt Hickey over at the five thirty eight blog did 108 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: a really detailed statistical analysis of this and found that 109 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: as of August, men out number women nine to one 110 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: behind the scenes at both these and Marvel, and about 111 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: the people working on comics in the past year. We're 112 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: also white. So not only is their little gender diversity, 113 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: there's also little racial diversity as well. And as we 114 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: sort of touched on in our part one episode, the 115 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: more people that you bring into a medium, the more 116 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: different types of people you bring in, the more perspectives 117 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: you're going to get. And so obviously that's going to 118 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: be a theme of our discussion. But uh, Tim Hanley, 119 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 1: who's a comic historian and Reese Archer noted that women 120 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: at DC and Marvel make up only of colorists and 121 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: nearly no letterers, he said, with female writers and artists 122 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: are sporadic at best. And there are more female editors 123 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: twenty four per and assistant editors forty point eight percent, 124 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: but still lacking in the artist and colorist area. Yeah, 125 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean in those those percentages of the editors and 126 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: assistant editors are up since the nineties. UM, But for 127 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: d C and Marvel, female characters who occur at least 128 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: ten times make up only thirty point nine percent of 129 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: the DC universe and thirty point six percent of the 130 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: Marvel universe. And so that's one of the reasons why, 131 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: like you said, I mean, you bring a greater diversity 132 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: of people to the table, chances are you're going to 133 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: get a greater diversity of people on the page. But 134 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: we are really focusing though on those people at the table, 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: not so much on the characters on the page, and 136 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: moving away from comic books for a moment and into 137 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: newspapers because yes, cartoons still exist in newspapers, and yes, 138 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: newspapers also still exists, UM, but it's hard to find 139 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: a woman cartoonist at a newspaper. UM. New Yorker cartoonist 140 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: and cartoonist historian lies that Donnelly estimates that there are 141 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: only two women editorial and political cartoonist, drawing from major 142 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: newspapers and at the New Yorker, for instance, only eight 143 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: out of the more than fifty cartoonists or women. Yeah, 144 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: And we went over to the National Cartoonist Society's web 145 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: page try to do a gender count over there. And 146 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: the National Cartoonist Society got to mention in part one 147 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: of our comic series talking about how it launched in 148 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: ninety six but was only open to men for the 149 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: first year until women and some men came to their defense, 150 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: being like, hey, maybe we should to open up our doors. 151 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: And as I was going through the website looking for numbers, 152 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: I ended up on their history page, and Caroline, it 153 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: was just so telling looking at photos from their history 154 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: and it's so hard to find a woman. I mean, 155 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: obviously in the very early years that it's all men 156 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: in the photos. Um, So looking at numbers today, I 157 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: counted up forty nine women out of more than six 158 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: hundred members. So and that's including women like say Kathy 159 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: guys White, who created the Kathy comic that we actually 160 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: talked about in a podcast A couple of summers ago. 161 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: So just for established cartoonists and comic book artists out there, 162 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: still it's it is overwhelmingly male dominated. But that's not 163 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: to say that women aren't invested in comics, right, I mean, 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, as again, as we talked about in our 165 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: first episode on this, women and girls have been interested 166 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: in comics and cartoons since the very beginning. It's only 167 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: sort of around World War Two that it became not 168 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: so cool for girls to be sort of involved, whether 169 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: in the industry itself or in the actual consumption of 170 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: comics and cartoons. And so a recent Facebook data survey 171 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: found that forty six percent of self identified comics fans 172 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: are women. Now, when I saw that statistic, I wondered 173 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: whether some people, say, like comics die hards, the fans 174 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: who really consider themselves fans who buy the two issues, 175 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: one so that it can remain in its plastic sleeve 176 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: and the other that they can actually read, whether they 177 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: might sneer a little bit at that percentage, in the 178 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: same way that similar percentages about women and gaming are 179 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: often sneered at because oh, well, those women are just 180 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: playing candy crush. They aren't, you know, up all night 181 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: on Xbox Live because I have a feeling based on 182 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: the kinds of names that we were getting from stuff 183 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm never told you fans about their favorite women comic 184 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: artists and comic strips, a lot of them are digital, 185 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: their web comics, and digital has really changed the current 186 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: comics game. Not to say that there there weren't also 187 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: plenty of more traditional comic book artists that were called 188 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: out as well. Um, but that's one thing that we're 189 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: going to talk about later on the show, is about 190 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: how digital has, I think, in a really positive way, 191 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: not only opened up comic creation to more people, but 192 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: also perhaps opened up readership and appreciation and consumption of 193 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: comic books to women in a way that we haven't 194 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: seen in previous decades. But before we get into all 195 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: of that, Caroline, we've got to take a quick break 196 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: and it will come right back. So the top of 197 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: the podcast, you know, we cited a lot of really 198 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: interesting things that are happening with women and comics and 199 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: cartoons today, but we also have to revisit how we 200 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: got here, and a lot of our information is coming 201 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: from two great places. One Where are the Working Women 202 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: in Comics? By Vanetta Rogers, which was featured on news 203 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: Rama and to Wesley Channelt's thesis, working the margins women 204 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: in the comic book industry and so where we are 205 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: today has a lot to do with the Comics Code 206 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: of the late nineteen fifties, whose censorship discouraged a lot 207 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: of the material that used to attract a lot of 208 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: female readers. And on top of that, it often sanitized 209 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: female characters and overaly emphasized g rated romance. I mean, 210 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: before the Comics Code, women were really getting into some 211 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: of the racier, the darker kinds of comics that Frederick 212 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: Wortham and Seduction of the Innocent was out to ban. Now, 213 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: on top of that, as we move into the seventies 214 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: and eighties, comic book sales move away from the news 215 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: stand and you have the growth of direct market systems sales, 216 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: and so with that you have the rise of comic 217 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: book stores and these spaces really become I mean, we 218 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: can all probably summon up the stereotype of the comic bookstore. 219 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the stereotype of the record store, 220 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: where it's mostly guys who are going to challenge you 221 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: on how much you really know, especially if you are 222 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: a girl walking into those spaces, and for a lot 223 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: of girls and women who otherwise would be fans of 224 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: comics and would pick one up at the newsstand felt 225 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: alienated from walking into a comic book store. Right. Trena Robbins, 226 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: who we cited a lot in the first episode, Who's 227 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: a cartoonist and a cartoonist historian. In an interview with 228 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: Collectors Weekly, she talked about this evolution of things moving 229 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: out of moving away from the news standard into these 230 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: comic book stores. She said that they were awful that 231 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: women didn't want to go into these spaces because they 232 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: were quote like porn stores. Yeah, I mean I remember 233 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: experiencing the same kind of thing in high school when 234 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: I started to get interested in graphic novels more so 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,119 Speaker 1: than traditional comic books. And there was this fantastic comics 236 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: store downtown where I grew up, and I wouldn't go 237 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: in there though without a friend, because I was too 238 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: nervous to talk to the cashier or to ask any 239 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: questions at all, because it was very much like if 240 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: if I was I mean, I would try to pick 241 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: out the right T shirt to wear just to give 242 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: myself a little outside cred And I mean it was 243 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: it was an intense kind of thing. So that definitely 244 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: rang true in my experience. But if we go back 245 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: though to the sixties and seventies, it is interesting to 246 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: see how with Marvel and d C both attempted to 247 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: provide more diversity on the page. They did feature a 248 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: few more black and female characters. For instance, in nineteen 249 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: seventy five, we have the debut of Storm in X Men, 250 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: and that was the first major black heroine, and that 251 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: was under Marvel. And then, you know, in our first 252 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: episode we talked about how Marvel and DC already weren't 253 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: that great in terms of employing women. They lagged behind 254 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: their contemporaries, most of whom ended up getting wiped out 255 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: by the Comics Code of the late fifties. But so 256 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties, the employment situation for women 257 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: was basically non existent. But stan Lee did in the 258 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies try to attract women to work for him, 259 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: but not many of them lasted more than a few years. Yeah, 260 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: it didn't really work, and even the hiring process was 261 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: rather controversial. He apparently had to sit sit the fellows 262 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: down and be like, look, guys, we're gonna hire a 263 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: couple of women. It's no big neal. We can still 264 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: fart jokes the major fear I do have and that 265 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: and that is my award winning Stanley impression as well. 266 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: But you can see though, as that's going on in 267 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: the background, and then you also have the direct market 268 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: system rising both in terms of production and consumption, it 269 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: understandably becomes this highly gendered kind of boys club kind 270 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah. So while all this is going on, though, 271 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: what's really interesting about comics in the nineteen sixties is 272 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: that it's basically basically like, well, whatever mainstream Marvel and DC, 273 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: underground comics with an X is really where it's at. Yeah, this, 274 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: I mean, they really were sort of providing a counterculture 275 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: answer to those big superhero comic behemoths. But that doesn't 276 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that women were super welcome in these underground groups. Yeah, 277 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: and this is kind of the unfortunate thing, I mean, 278 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: because you have all of these alt newspapers that are 279 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: popping up, particularly of course in New York, but particularly 280 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: on the West Coast in places like San Francisco, and 281 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: so you have our Crumb and others starting to do 282 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: these weird kinds of comics and then you also have 283 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: women doing weird kinds of comics, but the guys were like, ladies, 284 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: we don't want your weird comics. So um. Nonetheless, though, 285 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: Hillary L. Shoot, who wrote Graphic Women, Life, Narrative and 286 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: Contemporary Comics, talked about how during the Underground Comics Revolution, 287 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: this was the first time women were really using comics 288 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: as a form of personal expression, which was especially facilitated 289 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: by that kind of experimentation with form and style. But nonetheless, 290 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: they were kind of having to do it on their 291 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: own because I mean, the underground scene was I mean 292 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: it was basically an underground boys club as well. Yeah, 293 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: we definitely need to get back to Trina Robbin's the 294 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: cartoonist and now cartoonist historian um. In nineteen seventy two, 295 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: after the huge success of the first ever all women 296 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: comic book anthology called It Ain't Me Babe, Robbins and 297 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: others ended up forming the Women's Comics Collective, which is 298 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: based in San Francisco. And we should know that that's 299 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: women spelled w I M M E N, and that's 300 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: also comics with an X, and so ladies are doing 301 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: it for themselves. Well they have to, yeah, but it 302 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: is incredible to see how it ain't me babe immediately 303 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: sold out, And so some of these smaller publishing companies 304 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: start to pay attention, and some of these all weeklies 305 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: start to pay attention. And so you also, then though, 306 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: have women being like, well, not only do we make 307 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: this stuff, but we can also publish this stuff ourselves. 308 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: So you have for instance, Joyce Farmer and Lynn Chevally 309 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: forming publishing company Nanny Goat per Auctions, which was really 310 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: started to give women more of a platform. So, not 311 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: surprisingly along those lines, female sexuality is front and center 312 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: in a number of these underground comics penned by women, 313 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: one of which has a fantastic rhyming title that I 314 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: can't say on the podcast, but let's just say it's 315 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: along the lines of breasts and vaginas yeah yes, talking 316 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: about ladies yeah um, and other women to talk about 317 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: ladies um. Were women including ROBERTA. Gregory and Mary Wings 318 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: who were lesbian comic book artists emerging during this time, 319 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: and they pinned things like dynamite damsels and come out comics, etcetera, etcetera. 320 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: And apparently this was a really important platform for lesbians 321 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: at the time as well to be able to tell 322 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: their own stories, express their own sexuality and their own attractions. 323 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: And this was something that Trina Robbins was talking about, 324 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: and I can't remember which artists she was calling out, 325 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: but it was a street woman who came up with 326 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: an idea for a comic about lesbians and like, oh, 327 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: we needed depict lesbians. I'll draw this. And then some 328 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: lesbians were like, hey, no, you're not going to tell 329 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: our stories. And they were like, oh, yeah, absolutely not here, 330 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: you do make these and so they did. And so 331 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: with this, women's profiles really begin to rise, particularly within 332 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: these indie circles, and by the time we get to 333 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, going back to the mainstream for the moment, 334 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: there are still very few women at d C and Marvel, 335 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: But in the Sunday Funnies you have Kathy Guy's Wife's 336 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: Kathy comic. You also have Lynn Johnson with for Better 337 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: for Worse, which a number of Sminty fans called out 338 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: as well, but really all weeklies were where it was at. Yeah, 339 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: because the whole attitude kind of around women in mainstream 340 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: comic strips, not to even get into comic books, was 341 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: that like, oh, well, why do we need more why 342 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: do we need more women's voices. That's like a niche group, right, 343 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: women niche group. Well, And even thinking about the women 344 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 1: in the Sunday Funnies, there's Kathy who I mean, you 345 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: know it's Kathy, right, She's not exactly a revolute, a 346 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: feminist revolutionary. And then in even in like Lynn Johnson's 347 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: For Better for Worse, it's usually women in domestic roles, 348 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: or you have say Blondie, who's the wife, but she's 349 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: she's sexy, she's she's busty. Yeah, And I can't remember 350 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: what sources was coming from, if I feel like it 351 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: was in the Collector's Weekly article that we've cited where 352 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: someone one of the cartoonists was talking about how you know, 353 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: men's voices are considered neutral and they're just everyone's voice, 354 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: and so they can write about whatever. Their comic strip 355 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: can be about men or people in general, it can 356 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: be about whatever, whereas women almost have to talk about 357 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: being a woman, what that's like because they don't have voices, 358 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: They don't have the luxury yet, because there's so few 359 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: of them, they don't have the luxury yet of just 360 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: oh I'm a woman, but I happen to be drawing 361 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: a cartoon strip about whatever that they almost have to 362 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: make it so gendered. Well, and this was where all 363 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: weeklies really came in to give more of a platform, 364 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: a broader platform even than just uh, these independent comics 365 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: or zines at the time for women like Lynda Berry, 366 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: who I have a feeling a lot of podcast listeners 367 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: have been waiting for us to mention um. She was 368 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: highly influential in the Alto comic world. I mean just 369 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: in general, not just because she was a woman. She 370 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: was a massive pioneer and her series Ernie Pook's comic 371 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: as c O. M e K was kind of her 372 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: big breakout. She's also fun fact, Bessie's with Matt Graining 373 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: of The Simpsons, and they were all kind of, you know, 374 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: drawing stuff at the same time, and he was like, hey, 375 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: you should you should publish this Ernie Pook thing. You're like, 376 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: all right, fine, and then it became huge and she's 377 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: still she's still making comics today. Well, you also had 378 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: artists like Nicole Hollander who did the Sylvia comic, and 379 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: of course Alison Bechdale with Dikes to Watch out For, 380 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: and then Jennifer Camper with Rude girls and dangerous women, 381 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: and those are just a few of the bigger names 382 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: that were coming out of the alt and independent comics scene, 383 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: which leads us then into the nineties and two thousand's 384 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: when I mean we've sort of hit the bottom when 385 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: it comes to the depiction of women and men as 386 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: well in more mainstream superhero kinds of comics, because this 387 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: is when you have these impossibly bust the sexy women 388 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: and also these impossibly super muscular, ripped dudes who were 389 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: dominating the pages of mainstream comics. And it's no wonder 390 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: then that's starting in the early nineties. Graphic novels bring 391 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: so much relief to the whole thing. It's like, oh wait, oh, 392 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: we're back to storytelling, and oh look, it's beautiful artwork 393 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: as well, and we don't have these these intense pecks 394 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: and breasts everywhere. Yeah, I mean the types of graphic 395 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: novels that you know, I think you're referring to. It's 396 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: like it's almost like walking into a quiet room after 397 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: being screamed at visually. I mean, I remember, I wish 398 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: I could remember the name, but I remember one graphic 399 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: novel that I read in high school that I borrowed 400 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: from a friend. That was all about like love and relationships, 401 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: and it was very like melancholy and sweet. Definitely no 402 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: busty babes or ripped dudes featured in that at all, 403 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: and no offense any busty babes or ripped dudes listening. 404 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, We're purely talking about the ones that are 405 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: on paper. Yes, Um, So it was a really big deal. 406 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: Then that Mouse by Art Spiegelman wins the Pulitzer and 407 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: because of that, graphic novels all of a sudden get 408 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: the attention from all of these publishers being like, oh, well, 409 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: graphic novels, okay, this must be this must be important. 410 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: So sort of on the heels of that, you have 411 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: a lot of attention being paid to Marjane's Strappi for Persepolis, 412 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: which was another favorite called out by a lot of 413 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: Sminty fans um, as well as Esther Pearl Watson's Unlovable. 414 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: And as we move back into the mainstream and into 415 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: comic books, Gayle Samoans Birds of Prey launches at d C, 416 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 1: and Simone is responsible for coining the term that Kristin 417 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 1: and I have mentioned before in the podcast Women in refrigerators, Kristen, 418 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: you cared to define that. Sure. Essentially, it's this catchphrase 419 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: that Simone developed to highlight the disposability of so many 420 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: female characters, even strong female characters in comic books. It's 421 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: essentially like they would get to a point to where 422 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: they were almost too strong for the plot, and they 423 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: would sometimes literally and sometimes metaphorically be tossed into a 424 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: refrigerator and done away with. Yeah, make way for a 425 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: new busty babe, But they're disposable, so they're their death 426 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: is just part of the plot. But Birds of Prey 427 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: was and is really cool because this was an all 428 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: female superhero group. So women were kind of like, yes, finally, 429 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: and yeah they're busty. Sure they're busty, but they were 430 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: women grime fighters, and it seemed like Birds of Prey 431 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: started to mark a turning point and hey, let's pay 432 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: more attention to some ladies on the page. And then 433 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: in the late ninety nineties we see Japanese manga become 434 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 1: a huge crossover hit in America. And I don't know 435 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: that anime or manga's popularity has dwindled at all, no, 436 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: but it probably opened up more girl readers and consumers 437 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: to animation, cartoons, illustration, etcetera. And we should probably go 438 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: back at some point end to vote an episode to manga. 439 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: I know a number of fans uh called out a 440 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: number of female manga artists that they really love, and 441 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: we've gotten requests before to look at gender dynamics in 442 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: manga and anime. So that's something to look forward to 443 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: later in the year. Um. But now moving more to today, Yes, 444 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: it's clear that Marvel and DC are are attempting to 445 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: get a little women friendlier, but there's still plenty of 446 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: progress to be made, and there are also some women 447 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: in the industry who are a little tired of the conversation. Yeah. 448 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: Christina Strain, who's a colorist for Marvel Comics, was basically 449 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: saying that, um, you know, you guys are all creating 450 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: this controversy. The media won't stop talking about the lack 451 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: of women in the comics industree, and it just makes 452 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: it worse for everybody. She said, Right now, there's the 453 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: swell of ill will towards men in comics, and she 454 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: says she gets it, but quote, it's furthering the stereotype 455 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: that comics will be incredibly hostile towards women, when that's 456 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: just not at all the truth. Comics are about skill. 457 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: If you're talented and you're able to work with a 458 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: team to create awesome comics, you will get hired. And well, 459 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: I totally see where u Strain is coming from, and 460 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: I know that it must be frustrating as a woman 461 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: who was in on often criticized industry to continue to hear, oh, 462 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: your industry is terrible for people like you. I mean, 463 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: I see where she's coming from, But I still think, Okay, well, 464 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: if it were just about skill, would we not have 465 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: more women in the industry in general? Yeah? Well, I mean, 466 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: well then there's a question of pipeline of well, maybe 467 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: it's the perception of hostility that's stopping skilled and talented 468 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: women for even going for it because they don't even 469 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: want to have to possibly deal with that too. So 470 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it's I mean, I don't 471 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: think these issues are ever just as simple as well, 472 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: it's just skill, it's just talent, and that's it. I mean, 473 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: clearly there are problems with perception in general. This is 474 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: something that Terry Moore, who's a self publisher UM highlighted 475 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: talking about this. UM acknowledging, yes, there has certainly been 476 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: a lot more material out there aim towards male readers, 477 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, he said, most of the public thinks comics 478 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: are only about superheroes and action oriented characters. Those of 479 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: us who read them though, no different. And I think 480 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: that that's starting to become more and more of a 481 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: theme as the digital world becomes revolutionizes the comic book industry, obviously, 482 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: because print publishing in general is on the decline, and 483 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: with the rise of digital it seems like more women 484 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: are are coming to comics through that, whether that's by 485 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: making them or by consuming them. Yeah, I mean I 486 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: can say that personally, I have never been I mean, 487 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: aside from chasing down Brenda Starr in the newspaper every 488 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: day when the paper came to my parents house when 489 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: I was in middle school, I've never been a huge 490 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: consumer of comics, comic strips, comic books, whatever, um. But 491 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: in more recent years, over the past couple of years, 492 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: I have loved a bunch of different digital comics. Things 493 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: that women are doing that wouldn't be considered traditional comic 494 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: books or comic strips or things like that, but they're 495 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: telling a really personal life story, like Ali Brash with 496 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: Hyperbole and a half where she's dealing with a very 497 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: serious topic, which is depression, but she's illustrating it in 498 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: such an adorable and accessible way that it makes it 499 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: entertaining and you sort of get a slice of someone's 500 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: life in the process. Well and interesting too to see 501 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: how it's a lot of these people making web comics 502 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: and developing a digital following and then they're coming into print. 503 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: It's kind of the reverse um but notable to the 504 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 1: going back to Miss Marvel for instance, the sales of 505 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: that have been beyond expectation, and especially on digital um 506 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: And there was a recent survey out of Comicsology which 507 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: found a growing female comic readership on You Guessed It 508 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: digital platforms. So interesting to see how that's happening. And 509 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: there are in addition to Hyperbole and a half, there 510 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: are so many women penned web comics out there to 511 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: get to know and love online, such as Noel Stevenson 512 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: who I mentioned earlier with Pneumona, Kate Beacon's Heart of Vagrant, 513 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: which is hilarious, Spiked Troutman's Templar Arizona, Fiona Staples, who 514 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: co created with Brian Cabon the Saga series and then 515 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: Kate Leth with Kate or Die and so many others. 516 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: Like I said, if you head over to stuff I 517 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: Never told you dot com, we're going to compile all 518 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: of your suggestions with links to all of the web 519 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: comics or the comic book Artists site so that you 520 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: can check them out and see what women are doing 521 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: and drawing. Because the answer is so much. So what 522 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: do you think, Caroline, from going from Rose O'Neill in 523 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds all the way up to say 524 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: an Ali Brash today, what what? What do you think 525 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: is the status of women in cartoons? Well, I do 526 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: really think it's interesting to watch this rise and fall 527 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: that has seemed to happen over the past hundred or 528 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: so years. Because when O'Neil was popular with her QP drawings, um, 529 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't unusual or unexpected for girls and women to 530 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: enjoy that type of art and that type of medium 531 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: and and collect them and color them in themselves. And 532 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: then we hit this point in in in and after 533 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: World War Two where gender and gender divisions were so 534 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 1: important and everything had to be black and white, and 535 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: women were sort of pushed aside, and like Hey, this 536 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: isn't a girly thing to do. This is all action 537 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: and adventure and superheroes and fighting Hitler. This isn't for 538 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: you to enjoy. And so it's really nice and interesting 539 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: and reassuring to see that with the rise of the 540 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: digital medium and more people relying on it, that more 541 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: women now not only have access to comics around the world, 542 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: but they can create their own and give voice to 543 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: something that other people can relate to. Like in the 544 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: sixties when we had that comics with an ex revolution 545 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: and women, especially lesbian women, could finally say, here's my story. 546 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: I want to tell you my story in my own words. 547 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: Now you can have women like Ali Brash telling her story. No, 548 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you what depression is like, and 549 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: so many girls and women out there can say, oh, 550 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: I feel that way too well. And considering too the 551 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: delight and fandom that was sparked what we just asked 552 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: folks for recommendations and their favorites. It also seems to 553 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: be hearkening back to the time in the late teen 554 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: hundreds in the early nineteen hundreds that Tina Robbins talked 555 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: about or Trina Robbins, excuse me, talked about where you 556 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: would have I mean, where these women cartoonists were superstars 557 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: and people would collect them in scrap books. And no, 558 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: we don't need them in scrap books anymore. But they're 559 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: pinned all over Pinterest now right exactly, And they these 560 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: women are attracting you know, they're their own fans. So 561 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: I think there's obviously and almost always still progress to 562 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: be made. But I think it's a pretty good time. Yeah, 563 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: any time that women can share their stories in their 564 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: own voices. I mean it stinks that it always seems 565 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: to have to be through the underground, you know, and 566 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: through their own publishing memes, and it's not through something 567 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: like d C. But I feel like even their strides 568 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: are being made. Oh absolutely absolutely, And it's not going 569 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: back to too Sarah see Anderson. Not all these stories 570 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: but also humor. Yeah, so many funny ladies. So now 571 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: we wanted to hear from you. Who are your favorites? 572 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: Whose names did we overlook? There were Again, there were 573 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: so many suggestions that we got we did not have 574 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: time to read out every single one. Um, So if 575 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: you are a fan or a creator, we would love 576 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Mom stuff at how stuff works 577 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: dot Com is our email address. You can tweet us 578 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook, and we've 579 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 580 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Laurie about our episode 581 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: on Night Shift Moms. She says, I've been working the 582 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: night shift for over twenty eight years. I started out 583 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: doing it when I was just nineteen, thinking that it 584 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: would be a fun adventure, and it really was. I 585 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: work in emergency rooms as a respiratory care practitioner. After 586 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: I got married to my high school sweetheart at twenty three, 587 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: I continued to job because it also paid well and 588 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: we had only one car and a large college debt, 589 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: so I would drive to work at night and pass 590 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: the car keys to my husband in the morning so 591 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: he could go to college. Than at twenty five, I 592 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: had my first child and we couldn't afford childcare, so 593 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: I continued the night shift and passed the keys and 594 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: the baby with each shift change. I felt that my 595 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: husband got the better deal there. He just had to 596 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: feed the baby and put him into bed at night, 597 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: but when I got home, I was only napping when 598 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: he napped, and then back to work. Again. But when 599 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: the second child came along two years later, I was 600 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: averaging about three hours of sleep a day, but felt 601 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: like the women you mentioned in your program that at 602 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: least my baby saw me during the day and we 603 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: never had to deal with sitters and childcare issues. Over 604 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 1: the years, something ended up happening to me as well. 605 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: My circadian rhythm moved. I was now hardwired to being 606 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: up at night. I discussed this with my physician and 607 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: she felt that I shouldn't flip my schedule back and forth, 608 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: as that may cause more harmed my system. So to 609 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: this day, I work seven on seven off and I 610 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: don't flip my clock back to the day shift. When 611 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm off, I get a lot done at night, catch 612 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: up on the laundry, another quiet housework, and grocery shopping 613 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: is a dream. I agree that working the night shift 614 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: has some disadvantages. I did have a cancer scare when 615 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: I was twenty nine, of the thyroid variety, but it 616 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: was caught early and I'm fine now. Also, my husband 617 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: has never liked that I worked the night shift. He 618 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: understands this, but he misses me and I missed him too. 619 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: We've been married twenty four years and I kind of 620 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: believe that having to be away from him may for 621 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: us have strengthened our relationship. I always have interesting things 622 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: to talk to him about on my week off, and 623 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 1: we do get every other week to hang out together, 624 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: and if there's something special we want to do, I 625 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: will get up early to accommodate him. For me, I 626 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: don't know any different. My early memories are being up 627 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: at night. Maybe I'm one of those people. The hardest 628 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: thing for me, and I'm sure you touched on this, 629 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: was that it's hard to have friends when you work 630 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: the night shift. I have a few, but it seems 631 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: like I rarely see them because of my schedule. I 632 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: just thought you'd like to hear from someone who has 633 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: done this all her life, and even with all the 634 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: hardships that may have caused sleepless days in a grumpy hub, 635 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 1: and I still feel that what I did has been 636 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: the best thing I could have done for my family. 637 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: I think I'll always be a night bird. So thanks, Lorie. Well. 638 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Janna. She says, my 639 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: mom has been a nurse for twenty five years and 640 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: has worked both day and night shifts in that time. 641 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: She does twelve hour shifts and commutes about an hour 642 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: each way, so I did not get a lot of 643 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: time with her growing up. It was especially hard during 644 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: my teen years when she was working almost exclusively night shifts. 645 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 1: A mix of my tired mother and teenage hormonal drama 646 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: was a bit of a recipe for disaster when it 647 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: came to sleepovers. Everyone else could have them but me. 648 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: The horror. Now that I'm in my mid twenties, I 649 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 1: see the sacrifices that she made for me and my dad. 650 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: She worked so hard to be the best provider and 651 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: mom she could be. I'm so thankful for her dedication. 652 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: She truly taught me what it means to work hard 653 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: and to earn what you get. Thanks for your salute 654 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: to the unsung heroes who work well we sleep. So 655 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 1: thank you, Jennifer right a hand, and thanks everybody who's 656 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff Works dot 657 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: Com is our email address and for links to all 658 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 659 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: and podcast with our sources so you can learn more 660 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: about women and the history of cartooning. Head on over 661 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: to Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more 662 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 663 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: stuff works? Dot com