Speaker 1: Hey, SNAFU listeners, this is your host ed helms back
Speaker 1: in your feed for another bonus episode.
Speaker 2: This one is really really cool.
Speaker 1: If you told me a year ago that I would
Speaker 1: be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I
Speaker 1: would just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas, But it
Speaker 1: actually happened.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Over the course of our show, we got a healthy
Speaker 1: dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievski and
Speaker 1: Rhiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the
Speaker 1: Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network
Speaker 1: of operatives all over the world, each one on their
Speaker 1: own separate mission. One of those spies was a man
Speaker 1: named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 1: then eventually defected from Russia and became a US citizen.
Speaker 1: Just like our pals Oleg and Reiner, Jack's story is
Speaker 1: full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists and turns. I
Speaker 1: had a chance to sit down with Jack recently, and
Speaker 1: it was a really excit conversation. He was completely transparent
Speaker 1: and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table, and he
Speaker 1: provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviets cold war mindset,
Speaker 1: and we even had a few chuckles. I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: this interview. I got a ton out of it, and
Speaker 1: I think you will too. Hello, Jack Barski, it is
Speaker 1: a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2: You have an incredible story.
Speaker 1: KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade.
Speaker 2: So let's just.
Speaker 1: Dive right in to your origin story. Tell me about
Speaker 1: growing up. Where exactly did you grow up?
Speaker 3: Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part
Speaker 3: of Germany, very very poor, very rural. I was taken
Speaker 3: care of fundamentally. We had enough food, maybe fifty percent
Speaker 3: was potato based, but I can through ever having been hungry.
Speaker 3: And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody
Speaker 3: else was poor. Sure, so you got at Christmas time,
Speaker 3: you got a bunch of presents and there was only
Speaker 3: one that you really wanted. The rest of its was
Speaker 3: underwear and socks.
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Christmas time? Oh yeah, how did you
Speaker 2: have Christmas? There's no, you didn't but no one believed
Speaker 2: in God.
Speaker 3: No, But but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition. Sure,
Speaker 3: and in the in the communist countries, that was the
Speaker 3: tradition that was kept I honestly had no idea that
Speaker 3: the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's pretty extreme.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So you didn't get a lot of in
Speaker 1: your education growing up.
Speaker 2: You weren't learning about other ideas.
Speaker 3: They were teaching us the wisdom, and there was only
Speaker 3: one truth. There was science and math, and then there
Speaker 3: was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it
Speaker 3: was a science. Marxism Leninism was considered a science equal
Speaker 3: to physics and chemistry and so forth.
Speaker 2: Wow, that is fascinating.
Speaker 3: If you grow into that kind of an environment, what
Speaker 3: are you going to do? You don't know anything else,
Speaker 3: There's no other no other opinions. The only thing that
Speaker 3: went across borders was shortwave radio. But we we didn't
Speaker 3: listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll.
Speaker 2: Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening
Speaker 2: to at that time.
Speaker 3: Initially it was a couple of singers Americans who sang
Speaker 3: in German, Gus Bacchus and Bill Ramsey. Huh Big Gala,
Speaker 3: pig Allasists the Mouse It Famen in Paris. That was
Speaker 3: that was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a
Speaker 3: band called the Beatles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll treat your life the Beatles.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter how communists we were, so to speak,
Speaker 3: we all loved that music.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, this is this is fascinating.
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about the pop culture that you
Speaker 1: were absorbing, not just Western things, but things coming out
Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know,
Speaker 1: the spy stories have always been such a rich part
Speaker 1: of cinematic storytelling, and so what were you seeing at
Speaker 1: the time and did you have a perception of, like,
Speaker 1: of the spy life.
Speaker 3: Fundamentally there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily
Speaker 3: to music that came out of the West West Germany,
Speaker 3: in England and the United States. But the Communists art
Speaker 3: wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies.
Speaker 3: There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage.
Speaker 3: There was a series that was called The Invisible a Visor.
Speaker 3: It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany
Speaker 3: to find Nazis after World War Two and make sure
Speaker 3: that these Nazis would meet the faith that they deserved,
Speaker 3: and eventually he rose up in West German government and
Speaker 3: did a lot of interesting things. He was all over
Speaker 3: the world, you know, he was driving fast cars. He
Speaker 3: was our James Bond, and he got the woman. And
Speaker 3: this is what I thought with what espionage would be like.
Speaker 3: Obviously it was highly ideological, fighting against the bad capitalist
Speaker 3: so but it nevertheless was well done artistically speaking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively
Speaker 1: and artistically for so much of what was.
Speaker 2: Coming out of the Soviet Union at that time.
Speaker 1: So let's transition from some of these cultural considerations into
Speaker 1: you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school.
Speaker 2: At what point does you know, an actual spy life
Speaker 2: start to coalesce for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that that took a while. So elementary school, I
Speaker 3: was just playing along, you know, I didn't care much.
Speaker 3: And in high school I was still playing around, you know,
Speaker 3: but I became a little more ambitious and I managed
Speaker 3: to have nothing but a's on my last report card,
Speaker 3: and so that that allowed me to pretty much have
Speaker 3: my pick what university to go to a university as well.
Speaker 3: But he is a big butt. It's not because I
Speaker 3: was the smart, because I was clever. There were a
Speaker 3: couple of guys at least that were smarter than me,
Speaker 3: but they didn't know how to manipulate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, interesting, So you're kind of it's not just
Speaker 1: your intellect, it's sort of your your savvy.
Speaker 3: Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my
Speaker 3: third year, there was a national scholarship and I suggested
Speaker 3: that I be submitted, and the fellow who wrote the application,
Speaker 3: he showed it to me. I said, that's not going
Speaker 3: to work. I wrote, I wrote my own application, and
Speaker 3: I was awarded that scholarship, and that I believe got
Speaker 3: the KGB to pay attention to me.
Speaker 2: That's it, that's what.
Speaker 1: That was the sort of opening volley that put you
Speaker 1: on the KGB's radar.
Speaker 3: I believe. So because you couldn't, like, if you want
Speaker 3: to work for the CIA, you could just like, you know, sure,
Speaker 3: contact them and.
Speaker 2: Go online fill out an application.
Speaker 3: There was no such thing. You could not contact the KGB.
Speaker 3: They came to me.
Speaker 1: So you're you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and and and you think that's what actually
Speaker 1: put you on the KGB's radar.
Speaker 2: What was your first point of contact?
Speaker 3: So it was on a Saturday afternoon I was sitting
Speaker 3: in my dorm room and I get a knock on
Speaker 3: the door. So in comes of uh, a short man
Speaker 3: who was not likable even even just looking at him.
Speaker 2: It was not James Bond, No, he was.
Speaker 3: German, and and uh he said, hey are you I said, yes,
Speaker 3: I am. Oh, I just want to talk with you
Speaker 3: about your plans after you graduate. There was the dumbest
Speaker 3: cover story in that I've ever heard in my entire life,
Speaker 3: because in those days, when you when you were done,
Speaker 3: you were assigned.
Speaker 2: Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about
Speaker 2: what you know.
Speaker 3: No, no, no.
Speaker 1: That's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah, so you
Speaker 1: knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up.
Speaker 3: Yes, he pretended to be an employee of the the
Speaker 3: biggest company in town. But I thought he was German.
Speaker 3: I thought he was East German secret police Stazzi.
Speaker 2: Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway?
Speaker 1: No, no, not no, I mean I would think I
Speaker 1: would think a Stazzi knocking on your door might rattle anybody.
Speaker 3: I have always been fearless interesting.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that is a difference. That's a difference between
Speaker 1: you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution.
Speaker 1: And you you you're fearless.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fearless.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm afraid of my wife. But generally, generally I
Speaker 3: I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do.
Speaker 3: So so this guy, you know, was lying to me,
Speaker 3: and we were talking a little bit for a while,
Speaker 3: and then after about ten fifteen minutes, he changed his tune.
Speaker 3: He says, you know what, I gotta confess. I'm not
Speaker 3: really from that company. I'm from the government, he said,
Speaker 3: the government. I know. Yeah. I in my mind I
Speaker 3: was thinking maybe I should asked him what part of
Speaker 3: the government, but I didn't, so I said, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: and he said, can you imagine one day working for
Speaker 3: the government.
Speaker 2: He didn't ask you to join the KGB, right.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, he's still sussing you out.
Speaker 3: Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the
Speaker 3: most expensive restaurant in town, and he said, we're going
Speaker 3: to meet there. And when I get to the table,
Speaker 3: there was another fellow sitting there and this guy, who
Speaker 3: never introduced himself, said, by the way, this is herman.
Speaker 3: We're working with our Soviet comrades.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is exciting. Right, yeah, you're oh yeah, you're.
Speaker 1: In college and and the KGB is is taking you
Speaker 1: to a fancy restaurant.
Speaker 3: Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most
Speaker 3: powerful organization on the planet. You know, there there was
Speaker 3: a KGB mythology and philosophically.
Speaker 1: Right now, you're where where are you?
Speaker 2: With regards to the Communist Party.
Speaker 3: I was a member of the party. I was very
Speaker 3: active in the the youth organization at university.
Speaker 1: And was this because it was just convenient to do
Speaker 1: that or were you a true believer?
Speaker 3: I was a true believer.
Speaker 2: True believer. Absolutely, So that makes the KGB super Oh my.
Speaker 3: God, yes, wow, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1: And uh okay, so you meet with herman. Herman says, uh,
Speaker 1: that's let's let's meet again.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, okay. So it's just lots of meetings.
Speaker 3: It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would
Speaker 3: meet with him in his car sort of at the
Speaker 3: edge of town. After some maybe three four months, he
Speaker 3: must have determined that I was a really good candidate.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think
Speaker 1: they want me to be capable of extreme violence? Or
Speaker 1: you know that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations,
Speaker 1: weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of.
Speaker 3: No, nothing, no, no, no. All the people that I
Speaker 3: worked with, both in East Germany and then during my
Speaker 3: time in Moscow were gentlemen. Our weapons were supposed to
Speaker 3: be our brains.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are
Speaker 1: you learning, what kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering the
Speaker 1: picture here, you'd be surprised.
Speaker 3: The very first document they gave me to read was
Speaker 3: a book about the history of the Communist Party of
Speaker 3: the Soviet Union.
Speaker 2: Okay, just more doctrination.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're bad. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting
Speaker 3: out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then
Speaker 3: I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is
Speaker 3: a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The
Speaker 3: KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnant and pregnated
Speaker 3: with a just a trace of a chemical. The way
Speaker 3: to do this right, I had to be really, really careful.
Speaker 3: I had to make sure that everything was totally clean.
Speaker 3: If you didn't know what you were looking for, what
Speaker 3: chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's cool. So so you're getting some of
Speaker 2: these these skills. Was it surveillance detection or.
Speaker 3: Something, Yes, Serven's detection route this is this is actually
Speaker 3: an internationally recognized abbreviation to the FBI uses it the
Speaker 3: same way. So this is what you do. Counterintelligence need
Speaker 3: to follow you when you were out and about, and
Speaker 3: so the idea was that you have to have a
Speaker 3: fictitious reason to go their department stores, going to a
Speaker 3: movie and buying a ticket and the whole idea. If
Speaker 3: counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However,
Speaker 3: there's no proof. If you see the same phase twice
Speaker 3: within three hours, you know that you're being followed. I
Speaker 3: had really an extensive training in Moscow where we practiced
Speaker 3: this about it a dozen times and sometimes I had
Speaker 3: nobody following me, and sometimes I had a whole team
Speaker 3: following me. And it was a competition and.
Speaker 2: The test was to figure out who was following you.
Speaker 3: Yes, I won every time.
Speaker 1: Oh nice, So you've you've got you've got some serious skills.
Speaker 1: Now you're you're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on
Speaker 1: to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in
Speaker 1: East Germany. But to get to the United States, you
Speaker 1: needed an American identity.
Speaker 2: How did all that go down?
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation
Speaker 3: that allowed me to live in the United States. Right,
Speaker 3: There was only one paper that was important there. It
Speaker 3: was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who
Speaker 3: passed away at the age of eleven. This this is
Speaker 3: what this is what the KGB used to steal identity,
Speaker 3: and this is what's still being used if possible.
Speaker 1: Wow, Jack Barsky was a real There was like a
Speaker 1: birth record then and a birth certificate.
Speaker 3: Yes, one of those diplomats and who worked in Washington,
Speaker 3: d c. Is he was wondering around the cemeteries and
Speaker 3: he found the Yeah, it toombs On right, and it
Speaker 3: says Jack Barski born nineteen forty four, passed away in
Speaker 3: nineteen fifty five.
Speaker 1: And you want a child because then there's they don't
Speaker 1: have a life of.
Speaker 2: Records in all of the evidence of that.
Speaker 3: That's correct.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's kind of dark.
Speaker 3: And in those days. In those days, it was really
Speaker 3: easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to
Speaker 3: show why you weren't titled to get it. All you
Speaker 3: had to do is, you know, fill out a form
Speaker 3: and then pay the fee.
Speaker 1: So active agents kind of procured your papers's and then
Speaker 1: you and then you had that to travel with. Right,
Speaker 1: So how did they decide? Did they have a conversation
Speaker 1: with you? What do you want to do? Where do
Speaker 1: you want to go?
Speaker 3: Well, no, no, this was there was never a really well
Speaker 3: constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know,
Speaker 3: you just go and then you do good things.
Speaker 2: So basically the assignment is just go and be curious.
Speaker 3: Go and find your way up in society. There was
Speaker 3: a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would
Speaker 3: have become a really really dangerous agent. The plan was
Speaker 3: for me to get all the documentation that you need
Speaker 3: to operate in the United States work there, including a passport,
Speaker 3: and with that passport, they were going to send me
Speaker 3: back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria
Speaker 3: or Switzerland, and then they would have had me open
Speaker 3: some kind of a company to establish a company, and
Speaker 3: they would funnel a lot of money into that company.
Speaker 3: So within two years I would go back to the
Speaker 3: United States a millionaire.
Speaker 1: Oh that's nice, Oh what happened to This is a
Speaker 1: great plan and you get to be a millionaire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a hell of a plan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I failed. I was able to when I got
Speaker 3: to the United States with that birth certificate, I was
Speaker 3: able to get a Social Security card. I was able
Speaker 3: to get a driver's license, so I was functional in
Speaker 3: the United States. But the journey was really well planned
Speaker 3: except for the very last leg of the trip. The
Speaker 3: way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back
Speaker 3: to Moscow. So from Moscow I took a plane. I
Speaker 3: went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna,
Speaker 3: neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a
Speaker 3: KGB agent diplomat who gave me a second forged passport,
Speaker 3: and I gave him back the first one that I used.
Speaker 3: From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we're
Speaker 3: in NATO territory, right, but I'm already like twice removed.
Speaker 3: And there I got a Canadian passport.
Speaker 1: Okay, And that gets you into in where Where where
Speaker 1: do you go from there?
Speaker 3: From From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and Mexico City,
Speaker 3: I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back
Speaker 3: to Toronto, with a stopover in Chicago. So they had
Speaker 3: me deep plane at O'Hare and that's when the trouble started.
Speaker 3: I mean I should I should have been busted right
Speaker 3: then and there because KGB had nobody there were no
Speaker 3: Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago anything. Wow.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when you first stepped off that plane at
Speaker 1: Chicago O'Hare and you're you're suddenly you're walking on American soil.
Speaker 1: Is that that must have been an incredible rush?
Speaker 3: Yes, particularly once I got through customs and immigration. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But but before that it was like anxiety. Yeah, a
Speaker 3: lot of it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I would imagine, I mean I would be crippled with
Speaker 1: fear at this point, but you, being fearless, get through it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So you get to New York City eventually, I'm so curious.
Speaker 1: You know, we talked a little bit about your assignment,
Speaker 1: but like, what the hell are you doing day to day?
Speaker 3: I had some tasks. There were a couple of times
Speaker 3: where they actually asked me to do something really important.
Speaker 3: One of them was to find an XKGB agent who
Speaker 3: who was actually an assassin who had defected and it
Speaker 3: was under a death sentence and they wanted me to
Speaker 3: find out where he is.
Speaker 2: Did you find him?
Speaker 3: Yes? I did?
Speaker 2: WHOA and did they send someone after him?
Speaker 3: They didn't, Thank god. It's another one of those movie scenes.
Speaker 3: I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see
Speaker 3: if he's still teaching at the University of California.
Speaker 2: Assassin had gotten a job as a college professor.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, yeah, he defected.
Speaker 2: You know, still that's a pretty different skill set.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart
Speaker 3: to get away with what they're doing, right, So yeah,
Speaker 3: So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the
Speaker 3: University of California Bernardino. The last door on the left,
Speaker 3: there's a nameplate that says Nikolai Kocklof. That's the guy
Speaker 3: I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this
Speaker 3: at this name played, the door opens and he comes out.
Speaker 3: This is this like delicious situation where an ex KGB
Speaker 3: agent who's under a death sentence is looking at a
Speaker 3: KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor
Speaker 3: he knew who we were. I found out much later
Speaker 3: he died from natural causes.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah right.
Speaker 3: I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know,
Speaker 3: when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people. First,
Speaker 3: you got a spotter, who looks who looks for talent.
Speaker 1: So are you looking for people to flip Americans might
Speaker 1: work for the KGB. Okay, yes, So at the time,
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union has this this kind of research process
Speaker 1: called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener, Operation Ryan was
Speaker 1: this kind of insane thing where spies.
Speaker 2: All over the world were asked.
Speaker 1: To just give the Soviet Union confirmation that America was
Speaker 1: going to start nuclear war.
Speaker 3: Basically, you are the first and only interviewer who knows
Speaker 3: exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time.
Speaker 3: I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was
Speaker 3: told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the
Speaker 3: Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey.
Speaker 2: To just go look at it, or what.
Speaker 3: Look at see if I if I see, if I
Speaker 3: see signs of preparation for war. Yes. I was also
Speaker 3: trained to recognize, based on a silhouette, what kind of
Speaker 3: ships are out there?
Speaker 2: Oh wow?
Speaker 3: And you know, I had no idea I was part
Speaker 3: of that program.
Speaker 1: But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing
Speaker 1: as possible as possible war preparations.
Speaker 3: I never saw anything out of the ordinary, and in fact,
Speaker 3: there was no preparation for war. But you know, the
Speaker 3: fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov,
Speaker 3: was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether and drop
Speaker 2: off actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war
Speaker 2: or if they just wanted us to think they believed that.
Speaker 3: No. I believe my interaction with my handless in Moscow
Speaker 3: indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 3: And there was some element of cultural misunderstanding because Reagan
Speaker 3: was a believing Christian and he sometimes quoted the Bible,
Speaker 3: particularly the Book of.
Speaker 2: Relation, the scariest book of the Bible.
Speaker 3: Right, So in a communist country, nobody had any kind
Speaker 3: of idea, particularly the ones and the decision makers. They
Speaker 3: didn't have context as to what when you quote the Bible,
Speaker 3: what that means. And clearly Ronald Reagan was not He
Speaker 3: didn't think he was appointed to accelerate the end of
Speaker 3: the world. But you know, Andropov in you know, the
Speaker 3: Central Committee of the party, they they were really afraid
Speaker 3: of this man.
Speaker 2: They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying you wanted to start a
Speaker 3: war and the war would have been the end of
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, of course, yeah, yeah, of course it would
Speaker 2: have been armageddon. But what how do you know that?
Speaker 1: What signals were you getting that that? And drop Off
Speaker 1: really thought Reagan wanted to start a war.
Speaker 3: Obviously I never had a conversation with un drop Off,
Speaker 3: but I had conversation with people that were in his
Speaker 3: organization and they were all like, deathly afraid of Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that is fascinating.
Speaker 1: And are you aware of the able Archer eighty three
Speaker 1: military exercise that was happening.
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I
Speaker 3: know what you're talking about. During the Cold War, we
Speaker 3: became close three four times to a nuclear exchange, and
Speaker 3: every time it was based on a misunderstanding. And that
Speaker 3: is what I'm worried about right now, with Russia being
Speaker 3: on edge and you know their mistakes can be made,
Speaker 3: and you know, you have one mistaken launch, it's over.
Speaker 1: So I want to back up a little bit. You
Speaker 1: had a few specific tasks, but you also had this
Speaker 1: kind of grand, larger.
Speaker 2: Mission that was really up to you.
Speaker 1: It sounds like how were you communicating with Moscow while
Speaker 1: you're in the United States? What were sort of your
Speaker 1: what were some of those tricks as a lone wolf.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if if you ever watched the Americans, there
Speaker 3: are a lot of scenes where the handler of the
Speaker 3: two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There
Speaker 3: was a hard rule that you do not meet and
Speaker 3: an illegal will not meet with another agent in the
Speaker 3: country where he operates. So so communication was it wasn't directed,
Speaker 3: was indirect. They they sent me the stuff whatever they
Speaker 3: wanted to communicate in Morse code once a week. By
Speaker 3: the way, that's still being used, and it's significantly better
Speaker 3: than using social media or the internet because when you
Speaker 3: send signals out into the ether, you know people know
Speaker 3: where it came from, but people don't know who's actually
Speaker 3: listening to it.
Speaker 1: Right, And then to communicate back to Russia, what are
Speaker 1: you doing?
Speaker 3: Secret writing? I had what they call convenience addresses. These
Speaker 3: were collaborators with a KGB in other countries, So I
Speaker 3: would write a letter as if I knew about them,
Speaker 3: I knew anything, so that I'm sorry, you know, you
Speaker 3: broke your leg or some like leg open text or
Speaker 3: and then I overlay this with some secret writing, and
Speaker 3: then I would mail this thing, and then it would
Speaker 3: they would know that this had to be handed over
Speaker 3: to the KGB agent.
Speaker 2: That's wild, Okay.
Speaker 1: So at some point during this process you decide you
Speaker 1: don't want to be a KGB agent anymore.
Speaker 2: What happened?
Speaker 1: Where was the ideological shift? Because now you're an American
Speaker 1: and you seem to like America a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it was a what I call a slow decontamination.
Speaker 3: The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't
Speaker 3: really as oppressive to the workers as I thought, because
Speaker 3: when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, it
Speaker 3: was a nice place and they treated us well, we
Speaker 3: got free lunch. Other than like you know, bad bosses
Speaker 3: and and and not very nice co workers. I couldn't
Speaker 3: find h institutional evil wasn't there. But when when I
Speaker 3: was signed from the KGB, I put in my letter explicitly,
Speaker 3: I will not betray the cause. I will not betray
Speaker 3: my mother and East Germany. And I meant that, and
Speaker 3: you know, and then I had a career. I developed
Speaker 3: my version of the American dream. It wasn't ideological, but
Speaker 3: it was like, you know, I liked it here, you know,
Speaker 3: and I became what they wanted me to, become a
Speaker 3: real American. You know, I led a normal life. At
Speaker 3: one point. I became a professional. I worked as a
Speaker 3: computer programmer. And you know, if you're a young man,
Speaker 3: you have some you know, your hormones are still there.
Speaker 2: Right, Sure, your job is inherently lonely as hell.
Speaker 3: Yes, So I started dating, and I found a really
Speaker 3: pretty young woman who was safe because he had emigrats
Speaker 3: it from South America. If I had gotten close to
Speaker 3: and born America and they would have figured out something
Speaker 3: something odd about this guy, he wouldn't have known. Turns
Speaker 3: out that she had emigrated, but she was actually illegal.
Speaker 3: So I helped her to become legal.
Speaker 2: Oh you know you married her?
Speaker 3: I married her. And so in nineteen eighty seven my
Speaker 3: daughter was born. And you know this is I don't
Speaker 3: know you have you have any any girls?
Speaker 2: I do have two girls.
Speaker 3: Okay, don't you love him? Didn't you love him like crazy?
Speaker 3: When they grew up?
Speaker 2: Well, they're still quite little.
Speaker 1: And I will say, oh, it is a form of
Speaker 1: love that I never even contemplated before, exactly so deep,
Speaker 1: it is so profound.
Speaker 3: And that is exactly what happened to me. I mean
Speaker 3: this this girl was and still is extremely pretty huge eyes,
Speaker 3: and I mean just like just beautiful. And when she
Speaker 3: was eighteen months old, the KGBS that sent me an
Speaker 3: urgent message that I should return to the Soviet Union
Speaker 3: because I was about to be arrested by the FBI.
Speaker 3: It was a red herring, it wasn't true, but they
Speaker 3: believed it. And obviously I should have believed it too, right, And.
Speaker 2: You couldn't bring the child back to Rush now with you?
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, no no. I kept the fact that
Speaker 3: I married this woman. Oh and I didn't tell.
Speaker 2: You were keeping secrets from the kg Oh.
Speaker 3: Wow, of course you.
Speaker 1: Really are fearless. Your love for your daughter is what
Speaker 1: kept you in the United States. And explain to me
Speaker 1: why you don't just say I'll just keep being a
Speaker 1: spy in the United States. You actually want to leave
Speaker 1: the KGB at this point.
Speaker 3: Well, well, they thought I was about to be arrested,
Speaker 3: so they wanted me back in the Soviet Union, and
Speaker 3: that that forced my hand, okay, because I had to
Speaker 3: tell them that I'm not coming, right so they wouldn't
Speaker 3: search for me. And so my last letter in secret
Speaker 3: writing stated the following, thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm going to be careful, but I can't come
Speaker 3: because I have HIV AIDS.
Speaker 2: WHOA you? But you didn't.
Speaker 3: Of course I didn't.
Speaker 1: And so once the case, once, once the KGB finds
Speaker 1: out that you have AIDS or that you've said you
Speaker 1: have AIDS, they're terrified. They don't want you back. Oh no,
Speaker 1: no way, And okay, so.
Speaker 2: Now you're off the hook with the KGB.
Speaker 3: But I did. I didn't know this. I was hoping
Speaker 3: for it, but I actually was one hundred percent because
Speaker 3: they went to my German family and told them that
Speaker 3: I that I already died.
Speaker 2: Wow, so then they just forget about you.
Speaker 3: They did, absolutely did. I spent about three months after
Speaker 3: I mailed that letter at being very cautious, careful, looking
Speaker 3: for FBI surveillance, looking for KGB. I was so well
Speaker 3: trained I knew that there was nothing happening. So I
Speaker 3: told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you
Speaker 3: know what we should start looking at moving into the
Speaker 3: suburbs and buying a house. That's when that was my
Speaker 3: first step to become an American. Wow.
Speaker 1: All right, so a million questions, but The big one
Speaker 1: is you left the KGB. Eventually you actually became an
Speaker 1: American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you, and
Speaker 1: you became an open book to them. They then offer
Speaker 1: you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you became public,
Speaker 1: why isn't the KGB trying to kill you?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, my case is really old.
Speaker 2: But you're still a liability.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're telling these stories all about kind
Speaker 1: of Russian trade craft and all these things, and might
Speaker 1: add sometimes it seems that Russian assassinations aren't just about
Speaker 1: keeping someone quiet.
Speaker 2: There's an element of vengeance there. Yes, why are you safe.
Speaker 3: If they had a list of you know, priorities, I'm
Speaker 3: near the bottom.
Speaker 2: Got it?
Speaker 1: Okay, next question. It has been said that there is
Speaker 1: no such thing as a former KGB agent.
Speaker 2: You are now.
Speaker 1: Living your life very publicly and openly and transparently. But
Speaker 1: who's to say you're not still sending secret messages back
Speaker 1: to Russia. And I say it with a laugh, but
Speaker 1: it's a serious question.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, you you got to trust me.
Speaker 2: Oh is that right? I just have to trust you?
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So here's the thing. When I was
Speaker 3: debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything
Speaker 3: that I could possibly remember on them. The last thing
Speaker 3: they had me do is I had to pass a
Speaker 3: light detective test. I passed that test, and then I
Speaker 3: spent I don't know how many years, but to seven
Speaker 3: eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I'm
Speaker 3: as anti communist as you can get.
Speaker 1: What is Jack Barski's philosophy at this point? What have
Speaker 1: you learned from everything you've been through?
Speaker 3: That question was asked of me several years ago, and
Speaker 3: I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but
Speaker 3: I came up with the best answer. It sounds a
Speaker 3: little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what
Speaker 3: I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it.
Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, you know what. It does sound hokey,
Speaker 2: but it isn't It is very profound.
Speaker 3: It's true. It's true. I lived it okay because I
Speaker 3: if I had not been in love with this little girl,
Speaker 3: I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East
Speaker 3: Germany and lived the good life, because at the time
Speaker 3: I had nothing but good things back there, and the
Speaker 3: love kept me here.
Speaker 4: Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up,
Speaker 4: and I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with
Speaker 4: your time and your wife and your story and sharing
Speaker 4: all of it, Jack Barski, I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much.
Speaker 3: You're welcome, take care bybye.
Speaker 2: Well there you.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did.
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about Jack's amazing life
Speaker 1: and his crazy story, check out his book Deep Undercover,
Speaker 1: My Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB.
Speaker 2: Spy in America.
Speaker 1: There's also a really cool podcast all about his life
Speaker 1: called The Agent. Definitely check that out. All right, This
Speaker 1: is your host Ed Helms signing off. Snapoo is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company.
Speaker 2: In association with Gilded Audio.
Speaker 1: It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Pippelka, Mike Falbo,
Speaker 1: Andy Chug, and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode was produced
Speaker 1: and edited by Olivia Canny. Our lead producers are Sarah
Speaker 1: Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, Associate
Speaker 1: producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia
Speaker 1: Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris.
Speaker 1: Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstad m HM.