WEBVTT - BONUS: Inside the KGB with Jack Barsky 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey, SNAFU listeners, this is your host ed helms back 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.840 in your feed for another bonus episode. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.520 This one is really really cool. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.520 If you told me a year ago that I would 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.240 be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.119 would just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas, But it 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:21.720 actually happened. 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:23.040 Now. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.920 Over the course of our show, we got a healthy 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.680 dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievski and 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.280 Rhiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.560 Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:36.919 of operatives all over the world, each one on their 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.959 own separate mission. One of those spies was a man 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.040 named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in nineteen seventy eight, 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.599 then eventually defected from Russia and became a US citizen. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.239 Just like our pals Oleg and Reiner, Jack's story is 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.600 full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists and turns. I 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.080 had a chance to sit down with Jack recently, and 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.600 it was a really excit conversation. He was completely transparent 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.080 and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table, and he 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.800 provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviets cold war mindset, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.600 and we even had a few chuckles. I really enjoyed 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.600 this interview. I got a ton out of it, and 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:26.080 I think you will too. Hello, Jack Barski, it is 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:27.759 a pleasure to meet you. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:29.560 You have an incredible story. 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.720 KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:36.880 So let's just. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:41.640 Dive right in to your origin story. Tell me about 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.000 growing up. Where exactly did you grow up? 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.400 Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:52.880 of Germany, very very poor, very rural. I was taken 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:57.800 care of fundamentally. We had enough food, maybe fifty percent 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.360 was potato based, but I can through ever having been hungry. 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.520 And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.720 else was poor. Sure, so you got at Christmas time, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.320 you got a bunch of presents and there was only 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.840 one that you really wanted. The rest of its was 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:13.760 underwear and socks. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.680 Wait a minute, Christmas time? Oh yeah, how did you 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.639 have Christmas? There's no, you didn't but no one believed 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:20.040 in God. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.080 No, But but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition. Sure, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.359 and in the in the communist countries, that was the 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.920 tradition that was kept I honestly had no idea that 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.000 the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.840 Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.280 That's yeah, that's pretty extreme. 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.320 Oh yeah, So you didn't get a lot of in 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:49.679 your education growing up. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.000 You weren't learning about other ideas. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.840 They were teaching us the wisdom, and there was only 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.040 one truth. There was science and math, and then there 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:06.200 was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.680 was a science. Marxism Leninism was considered a science equal 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:12.560 to physics and chemistry and so forth. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:14.720 Wow, that is fascinating. 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.040 If you grow into that kind of an environment, what 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.079 are you going to do? You don't know anything else, 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.200 There's no other no other opinions. The only thing that 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:30.200 went across borders was shortwave radio. But we we didn't 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.160 listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.040 Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:36.760 to at that time. 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:42.040 Initially it was a couple of singers Americans who sang 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:47.120 in German, Gus Bacchus and Bill Ramsey. Huh Big Gala, 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:52.480 pig Allasists the Mouse It Famen in Paris. That was 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.480 that was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.040 band called the Beatles. 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.760 Yeah, they'll treat your life the Beatles. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.840 And it doesn't matter how communists we were, so to speak, 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.160 we all loved that music. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.800 Oh wow, this is this is fascinating. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.159 I wanted to talk about the pop culture that you 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.680 were absorbing, not just Western things, but things coming out 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.560 of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:30.239 the spy stories have always been such a rich part 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:35.040 of cinematic storytelling, and so what were you seeing at 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.400 the time and did you have a perception of, like, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:38.800 of the spy life. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:44.000 Fundamentally there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.599 to music that came out of the West West Germany, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.400 in England and the United States. But the Communists art 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.080 wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.120 There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.839 There was a series that was called The Invisible a Visor. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:11.360 It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:17.240 to find Nazis after World War Two and make sure 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.160 that these Nazis would meet the faith that they deserved, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.960 and eventually he rose up in West German government and 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.719 did a lot of interesting things. He was all over 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.720 the world, you know, he was driving fast cars. He 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:37.320 was our James Bond, and he got the woman. And 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.359 this is what I thought with what espionage would be like. 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:49.760 Obviously it was highly ideological, fighting against the bad capitalist 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.760 so but it nevertheless was well done artistically speaking. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.880 Yeah, well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.160 and artistically for so much of what was. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.440 Coming out of the Soviet Union at that time. 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:14.440 So let's transition from some of these cultural considerations into 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.400 you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school. 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:24.400 At what point does you know, an actual spy life 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:26.560 start to coalesce for you? 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:31.680 Yeah, that that took a while. So elementary school, I 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.640 was just playing along, you know, I didn't care much. 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.039 And in high school I was still playing around, you know, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.640 but I became a little more ambitious and I managed 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:48.480 to have nothing but a's on my last report card, 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.479 and so that that allowed me to pretty much have 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:56.599 my pick what university to go to a university as well. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.479 But he is a big butt. It's not because I 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.400 was the smart, because I was clever. There were a 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.240 couple of guys at least that were smarter than me, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.080 but they didn't know how to manipulate. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.240 Yeah, okay, interesting, So you're kind of it's not just 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.800 your intellect, it's sort of your your savvy. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.720 Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.880 third year, there was a national scholarship and I suggested 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:28.600 that I be submitted, and the fellow who wrote the application, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.200 he showed it to me. I said, that's not going 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.520 to work. I wrote, I wrote my own application, and 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.480 I was awarded that scholarship, and that I believe got 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.360 the KGB to pay attention to me. 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:43.400 That's it, that's what. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.800 That was the sort of opening volley that put you 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:48.000 on the KGB's radar. 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.720 I believe. So because you couldn't, like, if you want 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.400 to work for the CIA, you could just like, you know, sure, 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:56.400 contact them and. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.000 Go online fill out an application. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:02.239 There was no such thing. You could not contact the KGB. 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:02.960 They came to me. 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.360 So you're you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.000 Oh yeah, and and and you think that's what actually 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:13.640 put you on the KGB's radar. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.360 What was your first point of contact? 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.480 So it was on a Saturday afternoon I was sitting 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.640 in my dorm room and I get a knock on 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:28.560 the door. So in comes of uh, a short man 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.840 who was not likable even even just looking at him. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.679 It was not James Bond, No, he was. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.520 German, and and uh he said, hey are you I said, yes, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.880 I am. Oh, I just want to talk with you 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.480 about your plans after you graduate. There was the dumbest 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.839 cover story in that I've ever heard in my entire life, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.600 because in those days, when you when you were done, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:58.520 you were assigned. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.480 Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:02.960 what you know. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:04.520 No, no, no. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.160 That's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah, so you 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.439 knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.880 Yes, he pretended to be an employee of the the 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.920 biggest company in town. But I thought he was German. 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.559 I thought he was East German secret police Stazzi. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.199 Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway? 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.640 No, no, not no, I mean I would think I 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.719 would think a Stazzi knocking on your door might rattle anybody. 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.359 I have always been fearless interesting. 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.600 Okay, so that is a difference. That's a difference between 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.559 you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.199 And you you you're fearless. 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:47.720 Yeah, fearless. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:54.200 Well, I'm afraid of my wife. But generally, generally I 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:58.560 I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.760 So so this guy, you know, was lying to me, 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.640 and we were talking a little bit for a while, 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:09.000 and then after about ten fifteen minutes, he changed his tune. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.840 He says, you know what, I gotta confess. I'm not 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.560 really from that company. I'm from the government, he said, 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:22.840 the government. I know. Yeah. I in my mind I 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:24.720 was thinking maybe I should asked him what part of 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.760 the government, but I didn't, so I said, yeah, okay, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.040 and he said, can you imagine one day working for 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:31.760 the government. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.280 He didn't ask you to join the KGB, right. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.600 Oh no, no, no, he's still sussing you out. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.560 Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.840 most expensive restaurant in town, and he said, we're going 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.680 to meet there. And when I get to the table, 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.600 there was another fellow sitting there and this guy, who 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.480 never introduced himself, said, by the way, this is herman. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.239 We're working with our Soviet comrades. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.560 Wow, this is exciting. Right, yeah, you're oh yeah, you're. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.440 In college and and the KGB is is taking you 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:06.719 to a fancy restaurant. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.000 Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.559 powerful organization on the planet. You know, there there was 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.200 a KGB mythology and philosophically. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.320 Right now, you're where where are you? 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:22.800 With regards to the Communist Party. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.640 I was a member of the party. I was very 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:30.240 active in the the youth organization at university. 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.720 And was this because it was just convenient to do 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.000 that or were you a true believer? 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:35.280 I was a true believer. 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:40.800 True believer. Absolutely, So that makes the KGB super Oh my. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.280 God, yes, wow, absolutely yeah. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:50.839 And uh okay, so you meet with herman. Herman says, uh, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.559 that's let's let's meet again. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.920 Oh okay, okay. So it's just lots of meetings. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.280 It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.720 meet with him in his car sort of at the 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.640 edge of town. After some maybe three four months, he 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.719 must have determined that I was a really good candidate. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:13.840 Wow. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.319 Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.559 they want me to be capable of extreme violence? Or 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.160 you know that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations, 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.599 weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:34.040 No, nothing, no, no, no. All the people that I 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:39.040 worked with, both in East Germany and then during my 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.560 time in Moscow were gentlemen. Our weapons were supposed to 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:44.760 be our brains. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.880 So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:55.360 you learning, what kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering the 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.440 picture here, you'd be surprised. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.839 The very first document they gave me to read was 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:03.280 a book about the history of the Communist Party of 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:04.240 the Soviet Union. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.720 Okay, just more doctrination. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:13.000 Oh, you're bad. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.120 out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:22.840 I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.240 a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:32.400 KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnant and pregnated 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.800 with a just a trace of a chemical. The way 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.640 to do this right, I had to be really, really careful. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.480 I had to make sure that everything was totally clean. 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:44.640 If you didn't know what you were looking for, what 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.840 chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything. 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.800 Oh wow, that's cool. So so you're getting some of 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.000 these these skills. Was it surveillance detection or. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.800 Something, Yes, Serven's detection route this is this is actually 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.320 an internationally recognized abbreviation to the FBI uses it the 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:07.040 same way. So this is what you do. Counterintelligence need 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:11.400 to follow you when you were out and about, and 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.559 so the idea was that you have to have a 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:21.240 fictitious reason to go their department stores, going to a 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.320 movie and buying a ticket and the whole idea. If 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:32.080 counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However, 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.160 there's no proof. If you see the same phase twice 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.360 within three hours, you know that you're being followed. I 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:47.120 had really an extensive training in Moscow where we practiced 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.360 this about it a dozen times and sometimes I had 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.080 nobody following me, and sometimes I had a whole team 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.400 following me. And it was a competition and. 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.200 The test was to figure out who was following you. 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:02.320 Yes, I won every time. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:19.240 Oh nice, So you've you've got you've got some serious skills. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.320 Now you're you're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.960 to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.880 East Germany. But to get to the United States, you 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:32.840 needed an American identity. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.600 How did all that go down? 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.960 Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.040 that allowed me to live in the United States. Right, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.160 There was only one paper that was important there. It 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:51.320 was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.160 passed away at the age of eleven. This this is 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.000 what this is what the KGB used to steal identity, 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.960 and this is what's still being used if possible. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.800 Wow, Jack Barsky was a real There was like a 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.520 birth record then and a birth certificate. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.440 Yes, one of those diplomats and who worked in Washington, 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.360 d c. Is he was wondering around the cemeteries and 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.920 he found the Yeah, it toombs On right, and it 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.400 says Jack Barski born nineteen forty four, passed away in 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.280 nineteen fifty five. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.640 And you want a child because then there's they don't 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:31.440 have a life of. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.400 Records in all of the evidence of that. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:35.920 That's correct. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:37.600 Wow, that's kind of dark. 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.680 And in those days. In those days, it was really 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.760 easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.760 show why you weren't titled to get it. All you 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.080 had to do is, you know, fill out a form 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:54.480 and then pay the fee. 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:01.000 So active agents kind of procured your papers's and then 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.280 you and then you had that to travel with. Right, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.399 So how did they decide? Did they have a conversation 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.000 with you? What do you want to do? Where do 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:09.680 you want to go? 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:15.359 Well, no, no, this was there was never a really well 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.159 constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know, 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.719 you just go and then you do good things. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.720 So basically the assignment is just go and be curious. 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.439 Go and find your way up in society. There was 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:39.240 a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.560 have become a really really dangerous agent. The plan was 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.680 for me to get all the documentation that you need 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:50.000 to operate in the United States work there, including a passport, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.600 and with that passport, they were going to send me 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.640 back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:03.359 or Switzerland, and then they would have had me open 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.960 some kind of a company to establish a company, and 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.920 they would funnel a lot of money into that company. 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.600 So within two years I would go back to the 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.200 United States a millionaire. 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.080 Oh that's nice, Oh what happened to This is a 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.720 great plan and you get to be a millionaire. 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.359 Yeah, that's a hell of a plan. 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.760 Yeah, I failed. I was able to when I got 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.040 to the United States with that birth certificate, I was 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.080 able to get a Social Security card. I was able 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.000 to get a driver's license, so I was functional in 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.080 the United States. But the journey was really well planned 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.879 except for the very last leg of the trip. The 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.520 way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.480 to Moscow. So from Moscow I took a plane. I 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.359 went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:59.240 neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:07.440 KGB agent diplomat who gave me a second forged passport, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.280 and I gave him back the first one that I used. 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.879 From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we're 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:19.400 in NATO territory, right, but I'm already like twice removed. 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.840 And there I got a Canadian passport. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.600 Okay, And that gets you into in where Where where 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:27.480 do you go from there? 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:33.200 From From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and Mexico City, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.360 I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:42.160 to Toronto, with a stopover in Chicago. So they had 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:48.280 me deep plane at O'Hare and that's when the trouble started. 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.080 I mean I should I should have been busted right 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.119 then and there because KGB had nobody there were no 0:19:55.240 --> 0:20:00.399 Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago anything. Wow. 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.600 Okay, So when you first stepped off that plane at 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.040 Chicago O'Hare and you're you're suddenly you're walking on American soil. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.840 Is that that must have been an incredible rush? 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:17.320 Yes, particularly once I got through customs and immigration. Yes. Yeah. 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:22.080 But but before that it was like anxiety. Yeah, a 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:22.600 lot of it. 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:23.040 Okay. 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.679 I would imagine, I mean I would be crippled with 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.720 fear at this point, but you, being fearless, get through it. 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:38.280 Okay. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.920 So you get to New York City eventually, I'm so curious. 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.200 You know, we talked a little bit about your assignment, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.320 but like, what the hell are you doing day to day? 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.359 I had some tasks. There were a couple of times 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.640 where they actually asked me to do something really important. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.960 One of them was to find an XKGB agent who 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:05.119 who was actually an assassin who had defected and it 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.399 was under a death sentence and they wanted me to 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.200 find out where he is. 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:10.320 Did you find him? 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:11.320 Yes? I did? 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.480 WHOA and did they send someone after him? 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.199 They didn't, Thank god. It's another one of those movie scenes. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.680 I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.000 if he's still teaching at the University of California. 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.560 Assassin had gotten a job as a college professor. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.399 Yes, well, yeah, he defected. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.119 You know, still that's a pretty different skill set. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.040 Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.640 to get away with what they're doing, right, So yeah, 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:47.439 So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.879 University of California Bernardino. The last door on the left, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.560 there's a nameplate that says Nikolai Kocklof. That's the guy 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:57.879 I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:03.600 at this name played, the door opens and he comes out. 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:09.280 This is this like delicious situation where an ex KGB 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.679 agent who's under a death sentence is looking at a 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:18.119 KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.920 he knew who we were. I found out much later 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:23.280 he died from natural causes. 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:25.560 Yeah right, yeah right. 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.320 I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know, 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:37.399 when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people. First, 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.200 you got a spotter, who looks who looks for talent. 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.360 So are you looking for people to flip Americans might 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.400 work for the KGB. Okay, yes, So at the time, 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:52.520 the Soviet Union has this this kind of research process 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:56.639 called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener, Operation Ryan was 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.720 this kind of insane thing where spies. 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:03.360 All over the world were asked. 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:08.679 To just give the Soviet Union confirmation that America was 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:10.440 going to start nuclear war. 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:16.120 Basically, you are the first and only interviewer who knows 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.920 exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.280 I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:28.960 told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.880 Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:35.520 To just go look at it, or what. 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.040 Look at see if I if I see, if I 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:41.480 see signs of preparation for war. Yes. I was also 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:47.119 trained to recognize, based on a silhouette, what kind of 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:48.520 ships are out there? 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:49.119 Oh wow? 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.480 And you know, I had no idea I was part 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:55.000 of that program. 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.320 But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.040 as possible as possible war preparations. 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.400 I never saw anything out of the ordinary, and in fact, 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.080 there was no preparation for war. But you know, the 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.720 fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:17.040 was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button. 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:23.560 Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether and drop 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:28.240