1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Hey, SNAFU listeners, this is your host ed helms back 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: in your feed for another bonus episode. 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: This one is really really cool. 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: If you told me a year ago that I would 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: would just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas, But it 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: actually happened. 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: Now. 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: Over the course of our show, we got a healthy 10 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievski and 11 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Rhiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the 12 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network 13 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: of operatives all over the world, each one on their 14 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: own separate mission. One of those spies was a man 15 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in nineteen seventy eight, 16 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: then eventually defected from Russia and became a US citizen. 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: Just like our pals Oleg and Reiner, Jack's story is 18 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists and turns. I 19 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: had a chance to sit down with Jack recently, and 20 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: it was a really excit conversation. He was completely transparent 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table, and he 22 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviets cold war mindset, 23 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: and we even had a few chuckles. I really enjoyed 24 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: this interview. I got a ton out of it, and 25 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: I think you will too. Hello, Jack Barski, it is 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: a pleasure to meet you. 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: You have an incredible story. 28 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade. 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: So let's just. 30 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: Dive right in to your origin story. Tell me about 31 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: growing up. Where exactly did you grow up? 32 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part 33 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: of Germany, very very poor, very rural. I was taken 34 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: care of fundamentally. We had enough food, maybe fifty percent 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: was potato based, but I can through ever having been hungry. 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 3: else was poor. Sure, so you got at Christmas time, 38 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: you got a bunch of presents and there was only 39 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: one that you really wanted. The rest of its was 40 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: underwear and socks. 41 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Christmas time? Oh yeah, how did you 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: have Christmas? There's no, you didn't but no one believed 43 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: in God. 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 3: No, But but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition. Sure, 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 3: and in the in the communist countries, that was the 46 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 3: tradition that was kept I honestly had no idea that 47 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of 48 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed. 49 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's pretty extreme. 50 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So you didn't get a lot of in 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: your education growing up. 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: You weren't learning about other ideas. 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 3: They were teaching us the wisdom, and there was only 54 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 3: one truth. There was science and math, and then there 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it 56 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 3: was a science. Marxism Leninism was considered a science equal 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: to physics and chemistry and so forth. 58 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: Wow, that is fascinating. 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: If you grow into that kind of an environment, what 60 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 3: are you going to do? You don't know anything else, 61 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: There's no other no other opinions. The only thing that 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: went across borders was shortwave radio. But we we didn't 63 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll. 64 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: to at that time. 66 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: Initially it was a couple of singers Americans who sang 67 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 3: in German, Gus Bacchus and Bill Ramsey. Huh Big Gala, 68 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: pig Allasists the Mouse It Famen in Paris. That was 69 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: that was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: band called the Beatles. 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll treat your life the Beatles. 72 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter how communists we were, so to speak, 73 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 3: we all loved that music. 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: Oh wow, this is this is fascinating. 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about the pop culture that you 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: were absorbing, not just Western things, but things coming out 77 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know, 78 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 1: the spy stories have always been such a rich part 79 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: of cinematic storytelling, and so what were you seeing at 80 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: the time and did you have a perception of, like, 81 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: of the spy life. 82 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: Fundamentally there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily 83 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: to music that came out of the West West Germany, 84 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: in England and the United States. But the Communists art 85 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies. 86 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 3: There was a series that was called The Invisible a Visor. 88 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany 89 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: to find Nazis after World War Two and make sure 90 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: that these Nazis would meet the faith that they deserved, 91 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: and eventually he rose up in West German government and 92 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 3: did a lot of interesting things. He was all over 93 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 3: the world, you know, he was driving fast cars. He 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: was our James Bond, and he got the woman. And 95 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 3: this is what I thought with what espionage would be like. 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: Obviously it was highly ideological, fighting against the bad capitalist 97 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: so but it nevertheless was well done artistically speaking. 98 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively 99 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: and artistically for so much of what was. 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: Coming out of the Soviet Union at that time. 101 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: So let's transition from some of these cultural considerations into 102 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school. 103 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: At what point does you know, an actual spy life 104 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: start to coalesce for you? 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that that took a while. So elementary school, I 106 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: was just playing along, you know, I didn't care much. 107 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 3: And in high school I was still playing around, you know, 108 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: but I became a little more ambitious and I managed 109 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 3: to have nothing but a's on my last report card, 110 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 3: and so that that allowed me to pretty much have 111 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 3: my pick what university to go to a university as well. 112 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: But he is a big butt. It's not because I 113 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: was the smart, because I was clever. There were a 114 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: couple of guys at least that were smarter than me, 115 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: but they didn't know how to manipulate. 116 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, interesting, So you're kind of it's not just 117 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: your intellect, it's sort of your your savvy. 118 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my 119 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: third year, there was a national scholarship and I suggested 120 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 3: that I be submitted, and the fellow who wrote the application, 121 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: he showed it to me. I said, that's not going 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: to work. I wrote, I wrote my own application, and 123 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: I was awarded that scholarship, and that I believe got 124 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: the KGB to pay attention to me. 125 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: That's it, that's what. 126 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: That was the sort of opening volley that put you 127 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: on the KGB's radar. 128 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: I believe. So because you couldn't, like, if you want 129 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: to work for the CIA, you could just like, you know, sure, 130 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: contact them and. 131 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: Go online fill out an application. 132 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 3: There was no such thing. You could not contact the KGB. 133 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: They came to me. 134 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: So you're you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate. 135 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and and and you think that's what actually 136 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: put you on the KGB's radar. 137 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: What was your first point of contact? 138 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: So it was on a Saturday afternoon I was sitting 139 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 3: in my dorm room and I get a knock on 140 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: the door. So in comes of uh, a short man 141 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: who was not likable even even just looking at him. 142 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 2: It was not James Bond, No, he was. 143 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: German, and and uh he said, hey are you I said, yes, 144 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: I am. Oh, I just want to talk with you 145 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: about your plans after you graduate. There was the dumbest 146 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: cover story in that I've ever heard in my entire life, 147 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: because in those days, when you when you were done, 148 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: you were assigned. 149 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about 150 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: what you know. 151 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 3: No, no, no. 152 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: That's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah, so you 153 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up. 154 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: Yes, he pretended to be an employee of the the 155 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: biggest company in town. But I thought he was German. 156 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 3: I thought he was East German secret police Stazzi. 157 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 2: Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway? 158 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: No, no, not no, I mean I would think I 159 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: would think a Stazzi knocking on your door might rattle anybody. 160 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,359 Speaker 3: I have always been fearless interesting. 161 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so that is a difference. That's a difference between 162 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution. 163 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: And you you you're fearless. 164 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, fearless. 165 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: Well, I'm afraid of my wife. But generally, generally I 166 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 3: I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. 167 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: So so this guy, you know, was lying to me, 168 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: and we were talking a little bit for a while, 169 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: and then after about ten fifteen minutes, he changed his tune. 170 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 3: He says, you know what, I gotta confess. I'm not 171 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 3: really from that company. I'm from the government, he said, 172 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 3: the government. I know. Yeah. I in my mind I 173 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: was thinking maybe I should asked him what part of 174 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: the government, but I didn't, so I said, yeah, okay, 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: and he said, can you imagine one day working for 176 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: the government. 177 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: He didn't ask you to join the KGB, right. 178 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, he's still sussing you out. 179 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the 180 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: most expensive restaurant in town, and he said, we're going 181 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 3: to meet there. And when I get to the table, 182 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: there was another fellow sitting there and this guy, who 183 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: never introduced himself, said, by the way, this is herman. 184 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,239 Speaker 3: We're working with our Soviet comrades. 185 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: Wow, this is exciting. Right, yeah, you're oh yeah, you're. 186 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: In college and and the KGB is is taking you 187 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: to a fancy restaurant. 188 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 3: Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most 189 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 3: powerful organization on the planet. You know, there there was 190 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: a KGB mythology and philosophically. 191 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: Right now, you're where where are you? 192 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: With regards to the Communist Party. 193 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: I was a member of the party. I was very 194 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: active in the the youth organization at university. 195 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: And was this because it was just convenient to do 196 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: that or were you a true believer? 197 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: I was a true believer. 198 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: True believer. Absolutely, So that makes the KGB super Oh my. 199 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: God, yes, wow, absolutely yeah. 200 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: And uh okay, so you meet with herman. Herman says, uh, 201 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: that's let's let's meet again. 202 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: Oh okay, okay. So it's just lots of meetings. 203 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would 204 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: meet with him in his car sort of at the 205 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: edge of town. After some maybe three four months, he 206 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 3: must have determined that I was a really good candidate. 207 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: Wow. 208 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think 209 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: they want me to be capable of extreme violence? Or 210 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: you know that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations, 211 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of. 212 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: No, nothing, no, no, no. All the people that I 213 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: worked with, both in East Germany and then during my 214 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: time in Moscow were gentlemen. Our weapons were supposed to 215 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: be our brains. 216 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are 217 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: you learning, what kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering the 218 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: picture here, you'd be surprised. 219 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 3: The very first document they gave me to read was 220 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: a book about the history of the Communist Party of 221 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: the Soviet Union. 222 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: Okay, just more doctrination. 223 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 3: Oh, you're bad. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting 224 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then 225 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is 226 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The 227 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnant and pregnated 228 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: with a just a trace of a chemical. The way 229 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: to do this right, I had to be really, really careful. 230 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: I had to make sure that everything was totally clean. 231 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: If you didn't know what you were looking for, what 232 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 3: chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything. 233 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's cool. So so you're getting some of 234 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: these these skills. Was it surveillance detection or. 235 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: Something, Yes, Serven's detection route this is this is actually 236 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: an internationally recognized abbreviation to the FBI uses it the 237 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: same way. So this is what you do. Counterintelligence need 238 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: to follow you when you were out and about, and 239 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 3: so the idea was that you have to have a 240 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: fictitious reason to go their department stores, going to a 241 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: movie and buying a ticket and the whole idea. If 242 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 3: counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However, 243 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 3: there's no proof. If you see the same phase twice 244 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: within three hours, you know that you're being followed. I 245 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: had really an extensive training in Moscow where we practiced 246 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: this about it a dozen times and sometimes I had 247 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: nobody following me, and sometimes I had a whole team 248 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: following me. And it was a competition and. 249 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: The test was to figure out who was following you. 250 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: Yes, I won every time. 251 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: Oh nice, So you've you've got you've got some serious skills. 252 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: Now you're you're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on 253 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in 254 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: East Germany. But to get to the United States, you 255 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: needed an American identity. 256 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: How did all that go down? 257 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation 258 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 3: that allowed me to live in the United States. Right, 259 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: There was only one paper that was important there. It 260 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who 261 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 3: passed away at the age of eleven. This this is 262 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: what this is what the KGB used to steal identity, 263 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 3: and this is what's still being used if possible. 264 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: Wow, Jack Barsky was a real There was like a 265 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: birth record then and a birth certificate. 266 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: Yes, one of those diplomats and who worked in Washington, 267 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: d c. Is he was wondering around the cemeteries and 268 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: he found the Yeah, it toombs On right, and it 269 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 3: says Jack Barski born nineteen forty four, passed away in 270 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty five. 271 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: And you want a child because then there's they don't 272 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: have a life of. 273 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: Records in all of the evidence of that. 274 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: That's correct. 275 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: Wow, that's kind of dark. 276 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: And in those days. In those days, it was really 277 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to 278 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: show why you weren't titled to get it. All you 279 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: had to do is, you know, fill out a form 280 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: and then pay the fee. 281 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: So active agents kind of procured your papers's and then 282 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: you and then you had that to travel with. Right, 283 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: So how did they decide? Did they have a conversation 284 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: with you? What do you want to do? Where do 285 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: you want to go? 286 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 3: Well, no, no, this was there was never a really well 287 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 3: constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know, 288 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 3: you just go and then you do good things. 289 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: So basically the assignment is just go and be curious. 290 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 3: Go and find your way up in society. There was 291 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would 292 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: have become a really really dangerous agent. The plan was 293 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: for me to get all the documentation that you need 294 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: to operate in the United States work there, including a passport, 295 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: and with that passport, they were going to send me 296 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 3: back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria 297 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 3: or Switzerland, and then they would have had me open 298 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: some kind of a company to establish a company, and 299 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 3: they would funnel a lot of money into that company. 300 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: So within two years I would go back to the 301 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: United States a millionaire. 302 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: Oh that's nice, Oh what happened to This is a 303 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: great plan and you get to be a millionaire. 304 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a hell of a plan. 305 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I failed. I was able to when I got 306 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 3: to the United States with that birth certificate, I was 307 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 3: able to get a Social Security card. I was able 308 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: to get a driver's license, so I was functional in 309 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: the United States. But the journey was really well planned 310 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 3: except for the very last leg of the trip. The 311 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back 312 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 3: to Moscow. So from Moscow I took a plane. I 313 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna, 314 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a 315 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 3: KGB agent diplomat who gave me a second forged passport, 316 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: and I gave him back the first one that I used. 317 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we're 318 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 3: in NATO territory, right, but I'm already like twice removed. 319 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 3: And there I got a Canadian passport. 320 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: Okay, And that gets you into in where Where where 321 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: do you go from there? 322 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: From From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and Mexico City, 323 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 3: I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back 324 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 3: to Toronto, with a stopover in Chicago. So they had 325 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: me deep plane at O'Hare and that's when the trouble started. 326 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: I mean I should I should have been busted right 327 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 3: then and there because KGB had nobody there were no 328 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago anything. Wow. 329 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So when you first stepped off that plane at 330 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: Chicago O'Hare and you're you're suddenly you're walking on American soil. 331 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: Is that that must have been an incredible rush? 332 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: Yes, particularly once I got through customs and immigration. Yes. Yeah. 333 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: But but before that it was like anxiety. Yeah, a 334 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: lot of it. 335 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: Okay. 336 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: I would imagine, I mean I would be crippled with 337 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: fear at this point, but you, being fearless, get through it. 338 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: Okay. 339 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: So you get to New York City eventually, I'm so curious. 340 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, we talked a little bit about your assignment, 341 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: but like, what the hell are you doing day to day? 342 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 3: I had some tasks. There were a couple of times 343 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 3: where they actually asked me to do something really important. 344 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: One of them was to find an XKGB agent who 345 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 3: who was actually an assassin who had defected and it 346 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: was under a death sentence and they wanted me to 347 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: find out where he is. 348 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: Did you find him? 349 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: Yes? I did? 350 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: WHOA and did they send someone after him? 351 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 3: They didn't, Thank god. It's another one of those movie scenes. 352 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 3: I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see 353 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 3: if he's still teaching at the University of California. 354 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: Assassin had gotten a job as a college professor. 355 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 3: Yes, well, yeah, he defected. 356 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: You know, still that's a pretty different skill set. 357 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart 358 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 3: to get away with what they're doing, right, So yeah, 359 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the 360 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: University of California Bernardino. The last door on the left, 361 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 3: there's a nameplate that says Nikolai Kocklof. That's the guy 362 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 3: I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this 363 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: at this name played, the door opens and he comes out. 364 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: This is this like delicious situation where an ex KGB 365 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 3: agent who's under a death sentence is looking at a 366 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 3: KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor 367 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 3: he knew who we were. I found out much later 368 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: he died from natural causes. 369 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah right. 370 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know, 371 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 3: when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people. First, 372 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 3: you got a spotter, who looks who looks for talent. 373 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: So are you looking for people to flip Americans might 374 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: work for the KGB. Okay, yes, So at the time, 375 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union has this this kind of research process 376 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener, Operation Ryan was 377 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: this kind of insane thing where spies. 378 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 2: All over the world were asked. 379 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: To just give the Soviet Union confirmation that America was 380 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: going to start nuclear war. 381 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 3: Basically, you are the first and only interviewer who knows 382 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 3: exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. 383 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was 384 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 3: told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the 385 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 3: Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey. 386 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: To just go look at it, or what. 387 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: Look at see if I if I see, if I 388 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 3: see signs of preparation for war. Yes. I was also 389 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 3: trained to recognize, based on a silhouette, what kind of 390 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 3: ships are out there? 391 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: Oh wow? 392 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: And you know, I had no idea I was part 393 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: of that program. 394 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing 395 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: as possible as possible war preparations. 396 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: I never saw anything out of the ordinary, and in fact, 397 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: there was no preparation for war. But you know, the 398 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 3: fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov, 399 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 3: was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button. 400 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether and drop 401 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: off actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war 402 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: or if they just wanted us to think they believed that. 403 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 3: No. I believe my interaction with my handless in Moscow 404 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 3: indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan. 405 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: And there was some element of cultural misunderstanding because Reagan 406 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 3: was a believing Christian and he sometimes quoted the Bible, 407 00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 3: particularly the Book of. 408 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: Relation, the scariest book of the Bible. 409 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 3: Right, So in a communist country, nobody had any kind 410 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 3: of idea, particularly the ones and the decision makers. They 411 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 3: didn't have context as to what when you quote the Bible, 412 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: what that means. And clearly Ronald Reagan was not He 413 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: didn't think he was appointed to accelerate the end of 414 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 3: the world. But you know, Andropov in you know, the 415 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: Central Committee of the party, they they were really afraid 416 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 3: of this man. 417 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 2: They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world. 418 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying you wanted to start a 419 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 3: war and the war would have been the end of 420 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 3: the world. 421 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: Yes, well, of course, yeah, yeah, of course it would 422 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: have been armageddon. But what how do you know that? 423 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: What signals were you getting that that? And drop Off 424 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: really thought Reagan wanted to start a war. 425 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 3: Obviously I never had a conversation with un drop Off, 426 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: but I had conversation with people that were in his 427 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: organization and they were all like, deathly afraid of Ronald Reagan. 428 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. 429 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: And are you aware of the able Archer eighty three 430 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: military exercise that was happening. 431 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I 432 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: know what you're talking about. During the Cold War, we 433 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: became close three four times to a nuclear exchange, and 434 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: every time it was based on a misunderstanding. And that 435 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 3: is what I'm worried about right now, with Russia being 436 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 3: on edge and you know their mistakes can be made, 437 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 3: and you know, you have one mistaken launch, it's over. 438 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: So I want to back up a little bit. You 439 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: had a few specific tasks, but you also had this 440 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: kind of grand, larger. 441 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: Mission that was really up to you. 442 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: It sounds like how were you communicating with Moscow while 443 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: you're in the United States? What were sort of your 444 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: what were some of those tricks as a lone wolf. 445 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, so if if you ever watched the Americans, there 446 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 3: are a lot of scenes where the handler of the 447 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 3: two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There 448 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 3: was a hard rule that you do not meet and 449 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: an illegal will not meet with another agent in the 450 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: country where he operates. So so communication was it wasn't directed, 451 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: was indirect. They they sent me the stuff whatever they 452 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 3: wanted to communicate in Morse code once a week. By 453 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 3: the way, that's still being used, and it's significantly better 454 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 3: than using social media or the internet because when you 455 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 3: send signals out into the ether, you know people know 456 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: where it came from, but people don't know who's actually 457 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: listening to it. 458 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: Right, And then to communicate back to Russia, what are 459 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: you doing? 460 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 3: Secret writing? I had what they call convenience addresses. These 461 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 3: were collaborators with a KGB in other countries, So I 462 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: would write a letter as if I knew about them, 463 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: I knew anything, so that I'm sorry, you know, you 464 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: broke your leg or some like leg open text or 465 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: and then I overlay this with some secret writing, and 466 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 3: then I would mail this thing, and then it would 467 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 3: they would know that this had to be handed over 468 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 3: to the KGB agent. 469 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: That's wild, Okay. 470 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: So at some point during this process you decide you 471 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: don't want to be a KGB agent anymore. 472 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 2: What happened? 473 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: Where was the ideological shift? Because now you're an American 474 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: and you seem to like America a lot. 475 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it was a what I call a slow decontamination. 476 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't 477 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 3: really as oppressive to the workers as I thought, because 478 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, it 479 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 3: was a nice place and they treated us well, we 480 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: got free lunch. Other than like you know, bad bosses 481 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 3: and and and not very nice co workers. I couldn't 482 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 3: find h institutional evil wasn't there. But when when I 483 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 3: was signed from the KGB, I put in my letter explicitly, 484 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 3: I will not betray the cause. I will not betray 485 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 3: my mother and East Germany. And I meant that, and 486 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: you know, and then I had a career. I developed 487 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 3: my version of the American dream. It wasn't ideological, but 488 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 3: it was like, you know, I liked it here, you know, 489 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: and I became what they wanted me to, become a 490 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 3: real American. You know, I led a normal life. At 491 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 3: one point. I became a professional. I worked as a 492 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: computer programmer. And you know, if you're a young man, 493 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 3: you have some you know, your hormones are still there. 494 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: Right, Sure, your job is inherently lonely as hell. 495 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: Yes, So I started dating, and I found a really 496 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: pretty young woman who was safe because he had emigrats 497 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: it from South America. If I had gotten close to 498 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: and born America and they would have figured out something 499 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: something odd about this guy, he wouldn't have known. Turns 500 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 3: out that she had emigrated, but she was actually illegal. 501 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 3: So I helped her to become legal. 502 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: Oh you know you married her? 503 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: I married her. And so in nineteen eighty seven my 504 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: daughter was born. And you know this is I don't 505 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: know you have you have any any girls? 506 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: I do have two girls. 507 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 3: Okay, don't you love him? Didn't you love him like crazy? 508 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 3: When they grew up? 509 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: Well, they're still quite little. 510 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: And I will say, oh, it is a form of 511 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: love that I never even contemplated before, exactly so deep, 512 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: it is so profound. 513 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 3: And that is exactly what happened to me. I mean 514 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 3: this this girl was and still is extremely pretty huge eyes, 515 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: and I mean just like just beautiful. And when she 516 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: was eighteen months old, the KGBS that sent me an 517 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 3: urgent message that I should return to the Soviet Union 518 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 3: because I was about to be arrested by the FBI. 519 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: It was a red herring, it wasn't true, but they 520 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 3: believed it. And obviously I should have believed it too, right, And. 521 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: You couldn't bring the child back to Rush now with you? 522 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, no no. I kept the fact that 523 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 3: I married this woman. Oh and I didn't tell. 524 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: You were keeping secrets from the kg Oh. 525 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 3: Wow, of course you. 526 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: Really are fearless. Your love for your daughter is what 527 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: kept you in the United States. And explain to me 528 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: why you don't just say I'll just keep being a 529 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: spy in the United States. You actually want to leave 530 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: the KGB at this point. 531 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 3: Well, well, they thought I was about to be arrested, 532 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: so they wanted me back in the Soviet Union, and 533 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 3: that that forced my hand, okay, because I had to 534 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 3: tell them that I'm not coming, right so they wouldn't 535 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: search for me. And so my last letter in secret 536 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 3: writing stated the following, thank you for pointing that out. 537 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 3: I'm I'm going to be careful, but I can't come 538 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 3: because I have HIV AIDS. 539 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: WHOA you? But you didn't. 540 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: Of course I didn't. 541 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: And so once the case, once, once the KGB finds 542 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: out that you have AIDS or that you've said you 543 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: have AIDS, they're terrified. They don't want you back. Oh no, 544 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: no way, And okay, so. 545 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 2: Now you're off the hook with the KGB. 546 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 3: But I did. I didn't know this. I was hoping 547 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 3: for it, but I actually was one hundred percent because 548 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: they went to my German family and told them that 549 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 3: I that I already died. 550 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 2: Wow, so then they just forget about you. 551 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: They did, absolutely did. I spent about three months after 552 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: I mailed that letter at being very cautious, careful, looking 553 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 3: for FBI surveillance, looking for KGB. I was so well 554 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 3: trained I knew that there was nothing happening. So I 555 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 3: told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you 556 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 3: know what we should start looking at moving into the 557 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: suburbs and buying a house. That's when that was my 558 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 3: first step to become an American. Wow. 559 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: All right, so a million questions, but The big one 560 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: is you left the KGB. Eventually you actually became an 561 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you, and 562 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: you became an open book to them. They then offer 563 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you became public, 564 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: why isn't the KGB trying to kill you? 565 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: Now? 566 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, my case is really old. 567 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 2: But you're still a liability. 568 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're telling these stories all about kind 569 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: of Russian trade craft and all these things, and might 570 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: add sometimes it seems that Russian assassinations aren't just about 571 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: keeping someone quiet. 572 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: There's an element of vengeance there. Yes, why are you safe. 573 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: If they had a list of you know, priorities, I'm 574 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 3: near the bottom. 575 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 2: Got it? 576 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: Okay, next question. It has been said that there is 577 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: no such thing as a former KGB agent. 578 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 2: You are now. 579 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: Living your life very publicly and openly and transparently. But 580 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: who's to say you're not still sending secret messages back 581 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: to Russia. And I say it with a laugh, but 582 00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: it's a serious question. 583 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, you you got to trust me. 584 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: Oh is that right? I just have to trust you? 585 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So here's the thing. When I was 586 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 3: debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything 587 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 3: that I could possibly remember on them. The last thing 588 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 3: they had me do is I had to pass a 589 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 3: light detective test. I passed that test, and then I 590 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 3: spent I don't know how many years, but to seven 591 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 3: eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I'm 592 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 3: as anti communist as you can get. 593 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: What is Jack Barski's philosophy at this point? What have 594 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 1: you learned from everything you've been through? 595 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 3: That question was asked of me several years ago, and 596 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 3: I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but 597 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 3: I came up with the best answer. It sounds a 598 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 3: little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what 599 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 3: I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it. 600 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, you know what. It does sound hokey, 601 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: but it isn't It is very profound. 602 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 3: It's true. It's true. I lived it okay because I 603 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: if I had not been in love with this little girl, 604 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 3: I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East 605 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 3: Germany and lived the good life, because at the time 606 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 3: I had nothing but good things back there, and the 607 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 3: love kept me here. 608 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 4: Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up, 609 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 4: and I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with 610 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 4: your time and your wife and your story and sharing 611 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 4: all of it, Jack Barski, I really really appreciate it. 612 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 4: Thanks so much. 613 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 3: You're welcome, take care bybye. 614 00:37:59,400 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 2: Well there you. 615 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. 616 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about Jack's amazing life 617 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: and his crazy story, check out his book Deep Undercover, 618 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: My Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB. 619 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: Spy in America. 620 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: There's also a really cool podcast all about his life 621 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: called The Agent. Definitely check that out. All right, This 622 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: is your host Ed Helms signing off. Snapoo is a 623 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company. 624 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: In association with Gilded Audio. 625 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Pippelka, Mike Falbo, 626 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: Andy Chug, and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode was produced 627 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: and edited by Olivia Canny. Our lead producers are Sarah 628 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, Associate 629 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia 630 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. 631 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to 632 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstad m HM.