1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and twenty five, 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: which is airing in late November of twenty twenty one. 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to be interviewing Ingrid federal Lee, who is 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: the author of the book Joyful, The Surprising Power of 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: Ordinary Things to create Extraordinary Happiness. She also owns the 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: business called The Esthetics of Joy and has a really 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: popular TED talk on how certain things make us happy, 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: be and joyful when we see them, certain physical objects 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: in the world, and how our surroundings can really influence 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: our mood and how we function, and whether we are 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: nice to each other or whether we are crabby to 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: each other just fascinating stuff. It turns out that if 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: you're in a drab office, you are probably not going 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: to be functioning as your best self. So you watched 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: her ted talk, right, Sarah. Yeah, I loved it. I 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: found it very interesting. I've discussed how I don't put 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: a lot of thought into my physical surroundings, but this 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: did give me pause. Perhaps there are ways of adding 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: pops of joy without overall spending a lot of time 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: on that since I don't enjoy the process necessarily, So 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: that is something I will keep in mind. I also 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: thought about my workplace, which the children's hospital part of 32 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: it where I happen to work. They done an amazing job, 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: like a lot of the examples she showed of joyful 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: looking environments, I'm like, yeah, they must have looked at 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: things like that where when they were building our hospital, 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: the outpatient part where I work. Maybe not as maybe 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: not as joy invoking, but I do think we've found 38 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: ways of putting up. We tend to decorate for holidays. 39 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: That's definitely kind of a joy inducing thing. We've added 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: color and stuff where we can. My office, actually, somebody 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: gave me some wooden custom letters that are like rainbow color. 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: That are my initials, and I put them up on 43 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: the wall and I was thinking about it, and I'm like, 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's definitely what if anything is like 45 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: a focal point in my office, adding a little bit 46 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: of joy, it's that so yeah, really thought provoking talk. 47 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to hear this interview. Yeah. Now she 48 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: has a lot of interesting things to say about color 49 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: and shape and abundance. Those are all things that can 50 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: induce joy. I've been thinking of that that too as 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: I've been decorating my new house. I mean, you know, 52 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm always going to be something of a muted, neutral 53 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: kind of person. You know, I'm fine with little pops 54 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: of color. I'm not going to put huge, bright colors 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: all over any sort of wall. But many of our 56 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: bedrooms are this shade. I think it's Iceberg blue Benjamin Moore, 57 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: and it's this really beautiful light blue. And I think 58 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: that that's going to be a definite joy inducing color 59 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: as I look at it, because it's just it's calm, 60 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: but it's not like white. There's something to it that 61 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: brings in a bit of joy. And this is airing 62 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: inn late November. We're recording it in early November, which 63 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: is when the leaves are still at their peak color 64 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: here in Pennsylvania, and so I'm experiencing all sorts of 65 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: joy looking at the bright yellow oaks and the red maples. 66 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: This is certainly an occasional pop of color in the 67 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: landscape like that can really just make you smile. You know, 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: it's hard to be in a bad mood when you're 69 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: looking at this brilliantly blazing red and yellow landscape. So 70 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: even as it's getting colder, we still get a few 71 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: weeks where it's like, oh, yeah, I'm still going to 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: smile about this. I still remember a walk I took 73 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: with the kids, like a few months ago, when we 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: went outside specifically because there was like a giant, vivid rainbow. 75 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, we have to go out and like experience 76 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: this and like see it. And it was just so 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: like there's just something so human about that, and so 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: like there must be some evolutionary pressure that makes us 79 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: and that's part of her work, and I think that's 80 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: so fascinating, And I'm jealous of your leaves. Why we 81 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: all love rainbows together that she uses that as an 82 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: example as well, Well, let's go ahead and hear from 83 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: Ingrid about what she has to say. Well, Sarah and 84 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: I are so excited to welcome Ingrid to the program. Ingrid, 85 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: could you introduce yourself? Sure, my name is Ingrid Fatelliti, 86 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: and I am a designer by background who studies joy 87 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: and in particular the way that our surroundings and the 88 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: physical objects around us influence our emotions and our well being. 89 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: That is such an awesome topic. And can you tell 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: us a little bit about your career, like how what 91 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: evolves as an expert in the aesthetics of joy. Yeah, 92 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: it's a funny question because if my like eight year 93 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: old self knew that I was going to grow up 94 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: and study joy for a living, she'd be like, Nah, 95 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: that's that doesn't exist, that's not real. I was an 96 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: English creative writing major. I went and spent some time 97 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: in the world of market research and branding, so I 98 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time studying human behavior, and then 99 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: I decided to go back to school for industrial design. 100 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: And so it was while I was getting my master's 101 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: in industrial design that a professor made this offhand comment. 102 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: But of course often it's those offhand comments that end 103 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: up being really important and he said, your work gives 104 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: me a feeling of joy. And it was particularly funny 105 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: because at the time I was really trying to study 106 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: eco friendly design, sustainable design. I wanted everything to be 107 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: really ergonomic. I kind of didn't really care what it 108 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: looked like. I just wanted to make stuff that was 109 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: going to be good for the planet and really usable. 110 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: And so this was strange to me that my work 111 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: had given him this feeling of joy. But also, you know, 112 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: we think of joy as this ephemeral, this intangible, fleeting feeling, 113 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: not something that comes from stuff, material things, Right, So 114 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: I asked, how do things create joy? And this professor 115 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: and his cohorts couldn't answer the question. And so that 116 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: was what really started me on this quest. And in 117 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: the meantime, I was working at a company called Ideo, 118 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: a design consultancy, and so I was learning a lot about, 119 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, putting design into practice by day and then 120 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: by night and on the weekends, I was writing this blog, 121 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: the Aesthetics of Joy, and I've been doing that. I've 122 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: been writing that blog for now thirteen years, and about 123 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: five years ago I decided to turn that all that 124 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: research into a book. I'd been you know, reading books 125 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: and neuroscience papers on the subway, taking notes on index 126 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: cards on my commute, and I decided to turn that 127 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: into a book. And I've been doing this work full 128 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: time ever since. Wonderful and speaking of things that bring 129 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: us joy? You are also a fairly new mom, right, So, yeah, 130 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm a new mom. I have a pandemic baby. I 131 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: had my first child's last June. So I have a 132 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: sixteen month old named Graham. Wonderful, wonderful, And so, you know, 133 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: as you had been, you know, realizing that these objects 134 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: were bringing someone joy and trying to figure out what 135 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: is this thing of joy? You say in your very 136 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: widely viewed Ted talk on this topic that you became 137 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: the Nancy Drew of joy. Right, you were a detective 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: studying the commonalities of all these things when joy appeared. 139 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: So what are the various things you came up with? Like, 140 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: what are the characteristics of things that bring us joy? 141 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: So I started asking people doing exactly that, asking people 142 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: about the things and places that brought them joy. And 143 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: I noticed that there were certain things that came up 144 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: again and again and again, and there were certain visual 145 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: or sensorial patterns to those things. So round shapes is 146 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: one of them. Pops of bright color, a sense of 147 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: a abundance and multiplicity, things that have a sense of 148 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: lightness or elevation, things that float and fly like hot 149 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: air balloons and clouds and rainbows up in the sky. 150 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: So there are all these sort of patterns that bring 151 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: joy the world over, and we don't notice them most 152 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: of the time, but they actually have a sort of 153 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: universal connection to this feeling of joy. Yeah, so you've 154 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: created all sorts of like galleries of various things that 155 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, colorful buildings in cities, or pieces of confetti 156 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: on the ceiling right that you just now that you 157 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: view them, you see like, oh, yeah, everyone reacts well 158 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: to that. But you had to come up with this 159 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: sort of system of thinking about it. It's really intuitive 160 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: when you actually hear it and you think, oh, of course, 161 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: confetti and sprinkles and rainbows all kind of tap into 162 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: the same principles. And polka dots and stripes, those are 163 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: all manifestations of abundance. This idea that we're drawn to 164 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: things that feel like they've gotten multiplicity or variety to them. 165 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: That's something that we see in festivals the world over. 166 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: So you know, we see these things in our environment, 167 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: and we don't think much of them. But when we 168 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: actually focus on them, we can see that there are 169 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: predictable patterns and we can start to harness those patterns 170 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and use them in our homes, in our lives to 171 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: physically surround ourselves with more joy. And why should we 172 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: do that? Because, I mean, another very memorable moment of 173 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: your TED talks you talk about all these wonderful, colorful, 174 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, wonderful things, and then you flash a picture 175 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: of the world's like dravist cubicle farm, just you know, 176 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: what many people work in. And so I mean, why 177 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: should we be thinking about rainbows and sprinkles like you know, 178 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: when we're we're like, how would that change anything about 179 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: our lives if we start thinking more about rainbows and 180 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: sprinkles in our physical spaces. Well, the way that I 181 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: us to answer this was that I would point to 182 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: all of the things that joy enhances in our lives. 183 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: So joy has been shown to increase or enhance productivity. 184 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: We're actually up to twelve percent more productive in some 185 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: studies when we are in a joyful state of mind. 186 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: Doctors come to a correct diagnosis more quickly in a 187 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: state of joy more more resilient emotionally and even physically. 188 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: So joy helps to reset our body's cardiovascular responses to stress, 189 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: so we're less stressed out or more resilient. Joy enhances 190 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: connections between people, so it improves our relationships. So there 191 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: are all sorts of reasons why having more joy in 192 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: our lives is beneficial, whether that's our work lives, our 193 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: personal lives, or anything in between. But I think that 194 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: to some extent, trying to justify it that way misses 195 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: the point a little bit, because I think a lot 196 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: of us are trained to see joy as this extra 197 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: in life. It's the thing that we do when we 198 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: get to the weekend, we get through our work. We 199 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: have to be productive enough so that we can get 200 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: to the joy. And that is really a frame of 201 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: mind that limits our joy. It limits our sort of 202 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: defines joy as this thing in the margins, and I think, 203 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, as I've come to see it, we've been 204 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: inculcated with that view. But joy is actually the thing 205 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: that makes our lives worth living. And I think as 206 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: we see people right now in the wake of the pandemic, 207 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: starting to make all sorts of shifts around their work 208 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: and saying, you know what, maybe I don't want to 209 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: work in an office sixty hours a week. Maybe I 210 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: don't want to base my whole life around work. Maybe 211 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: I want to change how I work so that it 212 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: brings me more joy. I think we're starting to see 213 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: people become more aware of that fact, or start to 214 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: question whether joy actually belongs on the margins or whether 215 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: we shouldn't bring it back toward the center of our lives. 216 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: A good point. All right, well, we're going to take 217 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: a quick ad break and we'll be right back with Ingrid. 218 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm here with Ingrid fatel Lee, who is the author 219 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: of the book Joyful, The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things 220 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: to create Extraordinary Happiness. She also owns the business The 221 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: Aesthetics of Joy has a very widely viewed ted talk 222 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: on finding joy in everyday things. So definitely recommend that 223 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: our listeners go check that out. So, Ingrid, we want 224 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: to you know, dial down into some specific spaces, you know, 225 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: because we've got our listeners. Our busy women, you know, 226 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: building careers, raising families, would love to have more joy 227 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: in their lives. But everything is you know, going on 228 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: your working mom as well. So let's talk about how 229 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: we can bring some joy to the various spaces where 230 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: we spend a lot of our time. I would like 231 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: to start with the house, and let's start with one 232 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: of the places where we spend maybe a lot of time, 233 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: the kitchen. What can we do in our kitchens to 234 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: up the joy effect there? Well. I think the kitchen 235 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: naturally is a place of both gathering and also sort 236 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: of sensorial experience. So I think finding ways to make 237 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: that more prominent or more central, since having a sense 238 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: of sensorial abundance is really connected to that abundance esthetic, 239 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: that sense of variety and multiplicity. But it doesn't just 240 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: have to be visual abundance, So it doesn't just have 241 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: to be stripes or polka dots. It can have to 242 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: do with the joy of the actual experience of cooking. So, 243 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, a way of bringing your ingredients out into 244 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: the open so that you are you know, your pantry 245 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: is organized in a way that it feels joyful to 246 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: you when you open it because you see the abundance 247 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: of all those ingredients in a way that is uncluttered, 248 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: but you still get the excitement of seeing all of 249 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: that potential. I think another thing is really just to 250 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: make your kitchen a place where it is easy to gather, 251 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: and I think one thing that really contributes to that 252 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: is lighting. So we don't often think about the way 253 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: that light influences whether people want to be in a 254 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: space or not, but generally, having warm light that's sort 255 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: of focused on an area will help draw people in. 256 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: So if you look around your house, you'll probably find 257 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: that there are certain spots where people gather if you 258 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: notice what the lighting is like. It's often because there's 259 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: a nice contrast between light and shadow where people want 260 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: to gather. And so having a pendant light over your 261 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: kitchen table, for example, that draws people together, or having 262 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: the same thing over your islands so that that is 263 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: sort of lit up and becomes like a beacon, can 264 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: be a way to add joy in those spaces. Yeah, no, 265 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: that sounds great. I was even just thinking, as you know, 266 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: thinking through your categories of things that bring joy, and 267 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: something like a bowl of oranges, it's like the sphere 268 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: and the bright color. You throw in some lemons in 269 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: there too, or something that would It's so simple, it's 270 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: so simple. But yeah, that's I think that's a lovely 271 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: way to to do it. That's a wonderful way to 272 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: add abundance to a kitchen space. Another thing that you 273 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: can do as you prep is a lot of people 274 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: make a meson place and a mezon plas is a 275 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: form of sort of spatially organizing your ingredients. You can 276 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: see everything, and that can be a really joyful exercise 277 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: of laying things out and having all of your prep 278 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: neatly laid out. That that taps into the harmony aesthetic, 279 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: which has to do with symmetry and balance and a 280 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: sense of rhythm and repetition. So the way that you 281 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: organize your food when you're cooking can also be something 282 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: that brings joy. Yeah, and you mentioned the part about 283 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: the pantry, you know, seeing things displayed. I suspect that's 284 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: why people love to click on those photos on Instagram 285 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: from the home edit people. Right, you know that they're 286 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: the canisters of fruit loops, and that you know it 287 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: has the symmetry, but then the bright color within it, right, 288 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: is that what we're reacting to? One hundred percent? And 289 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: I think what you mentioned there is actually this kind 290 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: of combination between aesthetics. So harmony and abundance work really 291 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: well together, because if you have pure abundance, sometimes that 292 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: can feel overwhelming. But if you have harmony imposed on abundance, 293 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: then you have all of the joy of this sense 294 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: of variety, but you have it contained within this very 295 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: clear structure, and that tension is really joyful to us. Excellent. 296 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: All right, let's move to the home office. So many 297 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: of us have been working at home for twenty months 298 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: or so now, often in repurposed corners of cluttered guest 299 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: bedrooms and such. So what can we do to make 300 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: our home offices feel more joyful? I think the number 301 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: one thing here is to add something green. Have a 302 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: plant or some element of greenery in your space. It 303 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: can even be artificial. It doesn't necessarily have to be 304 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: a living plant. If you don't have a green thumb 305 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: and you're worried about keeping a plant alive, even an 306 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: artificial plant will help. But research shows that having something 307 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: green in your workspace can help reset and restore your attention, 308 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: help with concentration, in addition to giving you this feeling 309 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: of sort of freedom and joy of having the outsides 310 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: brought into your workspace. Wonderful. All right, put the plant there, 311 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: maybe an artificial one. If you're worried that a dead 312 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: plant will bring you zero joy whatsoever as you look 313 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: at it. And a lot of our listeners are actually 314 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: listening to this in their cars, and it occurs to 315 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: me that, you know, even your car space probably has 316 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: some way you could make it more joyful, and particularly 317 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: if you're spending a lot of time there. What should 318 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: we be thinking about in terms of our cars. I 319 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: haven't thought about this one as much, but as you 320 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: mentioned it, what comes to mind for me is having 321 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: something silly in the car or having something surprising in 322 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 1: the car. I think there are opportunities. There are all 323 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 1: sorts of little compartments in your car that you know 324 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: close up, and that creates a really great potential for 325 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: surprise in the house. You know. One of the things 326 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: I did in my old house was paint cabana stripes 327 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 1: on the inside of my hall closet so that every 328 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: time you would open it, you would have this like 329 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: bright yellow and white stripes to greet you, and you 330 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: almost kind of forget about them when it's closed. So 331 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: that's one of the funny things about space, like creating 332 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: surprise in space, it feels like a strange thing you're 333 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: going to surprise yourself, but in a spatial context. You 334 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: can actually you can close doors or drawers or this 335 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: is something you can do at home. You can do 336 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: it in any space in your in your house, but 337 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: you can also do it in the car because there 338 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: are so many of those little compartments. So I would 339 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: be thinking about what kinds of little things you could 340 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: hide in the car that would give you joy when 341 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: you are rummaging for something in the glove compartment, for example, 342 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: or looking for something in that center console. Yeah, you 343 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: could also do that in your home, having something in 344 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: your home office, having something silly, so something like, I 345 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: don't know, a little dash you know, those bobble dashboard 346 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: ornaments would be an example for your car, but in 347 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: your home office, having something maybe with googly eyes or 348 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: something cute. Research actually shown that can also increase focus, 349 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: which sounds strange. You think of those things in a 350 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 1: car as distracting, or think of those things at your 351 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: desk as a distraction from your work, but actually the 352 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: research shows that that might actually help you focus more. Yeah, 353 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: because it's cute to look at, and if there's something 354 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: cute to look at, you're not looking at Instagram then, 355 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: which is also distracting as you're going about your workday. 356 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: We I thinking about sort of like communal places where 357 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: people gather. I mean, so if you're advising a company, 358 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: let's say that's that's building an office, and they're like, 359 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: you know, we would like to make people feel joyful here. 360 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: You know, we also have work to do. You know, 361 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: what would you have them think about in terms of 362 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: you know, what are the couple of things you would 363 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: do first to make a space be more joyful for 364 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: employees working there. A lot of times it has to 365 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: do with the kinds of work that are going to 366 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: be done in the space and thinking about the existing 367 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: space and what it needs or what it lacks. So 368 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: some spaces are a really severe and are very hard angled, 369 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: and so in a space like that, I would be 370 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: looking at how do we soften the edges, how do 371 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: we add more curves to make this feel less like 372 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: just a sort of severe block. If a space lacks color, 373 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 1: that might be something I would be looking at. So 374 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: I would be looking at what is what is happening 375 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: in that space and what actually can we add to 376 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: an existing space to make it feel more joyful as 377 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: we look at the kind of work that people are 378 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: doing there. For example, if people are engaged in teamwork 379 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: and creativity. Then that might imply again that we would 380 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: want to look at curves, which we've seen in studies 381 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: can promote flexibility of thought, so have a natural playful 382 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: round shapes have a natural connection to creativity, So I'd 383 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: be looking at shapes like that. On the other hand, 384 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: if you're doing big strategic visioning and that's you know, 385 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: it's an executive floor with people who are really focused 386 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: on analytical strategy, then I might be thinking more about 387 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: trying to give people a zoomed out perspective because research 388 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: shows that when we have aerial views, when we have 389 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: a sense of being upward in space, that that can 390 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: actually help us take a bigger picture view on problems. 391 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: So it really depends on the kind of work that's 392 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: happening there and using the aesthetics not just to create 393 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: a feeling of joy, which is really important, but also 394 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: to complement the kinds of things that people are doing 395 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: in that space. Yeah, and I want to ask a 396 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: little bit more about the whole color thing, because people 397 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: hear this and be like, you know, all well and good, 398 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm not going to paint all my walls orange. And 399 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: so for those who are not going to paint their 400 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: walls orange? Does this mean just forget about the whole thing? 401 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: Are there more subtle ways to incorporate color in a 402 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: way that will boost mood while still recognizing that, you know, again, 403 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: not everyone's going to paint their walls orange, right. I 404 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: think it's easy to to misinterpret this as me saying 405 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: you have to cover your office with rainbows, and it's 406 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: really more about creating a sense of vibrancy, making it 407 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: feel like the space is alive, that people can thrive 408 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: in it. And so when you think about the spaces 409 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: you feel alive in, they might be the beach, it 410 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: might be being out in nature. Often there's really good 411 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: natural light, sunlight, there's some sense of vibrancy, but it 412 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that there are neon colors everywhere. So I 413 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: think it's more about creating a sense of vibrancy, and 414 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: that could be about improving your lighting. It could be 415 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: about adding little pops of color. It doesn't have to 416 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: be a lot. It could just be about changing out, 417 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: for example, your largest surfaces in your office from gray 418 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: to something that maybe has a texture that includes a 419 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: color in with the gray. So it's not to say 420 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: that you have to do everything, you have to paint 421 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: all your walls orange. But I would say to someone 422 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: who is maybe worried about it or has a little 423 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: bit of what I call chromophobia or color or fear 424 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: of color, to start small. Might be a yellow coffee mug, 425 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: and then it might be adding another lamp on your desk. 426 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: But start with these little touches and see how it 427 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: affects your mood, and then you can grow and build 428 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: from there. Yeah, and certainly I mean adding a plant, 429 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: adding flowers, for instance, That could be a very low 430 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: key way to bring in more color, and then people 431 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: feel like, well, I haven't committed to anything, but would 432 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: still probably boost mood, right exactly. Yeah, Sop, have recently 433 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: moved to a new house that you're in the process 434 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: of redecorating. Correct, Yeah, So first, how does what an 435 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: expert on the aesthetics of joy is house hunting? Like? 436 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: What does that even look like? When you walk into 437 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: most houses? Like? Do you what are you thinking? As 438 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: as you see most of these places, it's a pain 439 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: in the butt for everyone involved. Yes, I'll be honest, 440 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: I'm not the easiest house huner, but I'm pretty clear 441 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: which is good. I generally can walk into a place 442 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 1: and know very quickly whether it feels like something I 443 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: could live in or not. We all have an intuition 444 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: for how a space feels to us and what feels 445 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: good in a space, and I think that we have 446 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: lost touch with it because we are constantly being fed 447 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: imagery of what a good or a perfect space is, 448 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: and so we're constantly being bombarded with that imagery and 449 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: it's hard to tune into what feels good. If you 450 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: think back to let's say, maybe it was your grandparents' 451 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: house or a house of a friend you went to 452 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: as a child, there's always somewhere in your memory that 453 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: you can reach back to of a home that felt good, 454 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: and it probably wasn't picture perfect, it just felt good. 455 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: And when you can start to look back at those 456 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: homes or those places and you can say, what is 457 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: it about these places that feels good to me, that 458 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: is sort of the the beginning of understanding. You know 459 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: whether a house is going to feel good. So for me, 460 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: there are a few features that I know feel good. 461 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: Light is always going to be the most important thing, 462 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: because it's one thing that's really hard to change. So 463 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: if you're buying a house, this is something you're going 464 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: to be living with for a long time. Another thing 465 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: that is really important to me is having very specific, 466 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: but having a circle in the home. I actually learned 467 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: about this from a designer named Gilen Vignas, and she 468 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: pointed out to me that circles in a home feel 469 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: really good. And what that means is that you have 470 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: rooms that interconnect where you could actually walk in a 471 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: circle through the home, so you could walk from the 472 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: kitchen to the dining room, to the entryway and back around. 473 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: Any home that has one of those circles in it 474 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: feels really playful for some reason. You can if you 475 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: had one of those as a kid, you could probably 476 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: remember playing tag or some kind of game in a 477 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: home like that. So that always is something that I 478 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: look for because I think that's something that makes a 479 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: home feel really good. And then as you you know, 480 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: you purchase your home and you've been renovating, I can 481 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: see behind you that you have half of the wall 482 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: of wallpaper currently. It is very colorful wallpaper. I'd like 483 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: to assure our listeners that it is a write and pattern. 484 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: How have you got alund selecting? Like you what you're 485 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: going to put in the walls. I mean, just very 486 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: curious to hear about the design process. My co hosts 487 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: Sarah and I are both moving into new homes in January, 488 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: and so I just love to hear about how you've 489 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: been going about doing that. Well, it's different every time. Actually, 490 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: was this the third home that we've done some kind 491 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: of work too, And each time the process is a 492 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: little bit different. But I've learned a lot over the 493 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: past few years, and in this instance, partially because of 494 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: the pandemic and partially because I just kind of wanted 495 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more time. I've really been taking my 496 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: time with this process and going one room at a time. 497 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: I teach a course on designing a joyful home, and 498 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: I feel that in the course, I teach a methodology 499 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: of going room by room, and I think that going 500 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: room by room is really powerful because it gives you 501 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: the sense of completion of having one one space completely 502 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: done before you start to do. If you do a 503 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: little bit here and there, then you feel like it's 504 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: never done, whereas if you go room by room and 505 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: you finish one room at a time, you get the 506 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: feeling of satisfaction of having your room complete. I think 507 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: For me, the process always starts with looking at how 508 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: I want to feel in the space. So this is 509 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: my office that I'm in right now, and for me, 510 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: abundance was a big part of it. So I look 511 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: at the aesthetics of joy and I say, okay, well 512 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: what aesthetics connect to how I want to feel in 513 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: this space? And for me, abundance was a big one 514 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: because it's a place of creativity, it's a place of ideas, 515 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: and I know that I think best in those kinds 516 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: of environments, and so wallpaper was a big part of that. Also, 517 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, painting my trim so that really felt like 518 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: this enveloping space. And then once you have that foundation, 519 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: you can start to to different colors in different spaces, 520 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: but you have a fundamental set of ideas and it's 521 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 1: all connected to how you actually want to live in 522 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: that space. Excellent? Excellent? And can it be done cheaply? 523 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: And are there ways that we can add joy without 524 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: spending too much money? Well? I think again, a lot 525 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: of us have been conditioned to feel like we need 526 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: our spaces to be picture perfect, and it's just there 527 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 1: is no perfect space. I know that Pinterest wants to 528 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: make us believe that there is, but there really is 529 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: no perfect space. And so when you let go of 530 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: perfection and you use joy as your guidepost, it frees 531 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: you up because you no longer have to make sure that. 532 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: I think it can be very paralyzing if you think, 533 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, I have to get the exact right 534 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: paint color for this wallpaper, and if I don't get it, 535 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: then I'm going to have this really ugly. It's not 536 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: going to be right because it's not going to be perfect. 537 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: So you let go of that and you say, does 538 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: this color bring me joy? Does this color make me 539 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: feel good? It's very liberating and it frees you up 540 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: to not have to fix all the problems. So one 541 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: of the things that I think can really help from 542 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: a cost perspective is to focus on moments that matter. 543 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: So instead of thinking about everything in your home is 544 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: equally important, think about where are the places you spend 545 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: the most time. What are the things you want to 546 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: have happen in a space. So, for example, in your bedroom, 547 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: do you just really want a space where you can 548 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: read a book and be cozy. And if that's the case, 549 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: then maybe it's your corner with your reading chair, and 550 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: you invest in that moment in that space and making 551 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: that moment possible, and the rest of it isn't so important, 552 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: and the rest of it fades into the background. So 553 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: instead of thinking about it like a picture that I'm 554 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: going to have to take where everything's going to have 555 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: to be perfect, think about it as a moment in 556 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: your life and how you want that moment to feel. 557 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: And I think that really helps from a cost perspective. 558 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: Very good advice. Well Ingrid. We always live in with 559 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: a love of the week. This is something that we 560 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: are really enjoying, so I can go first. In the introduction, 561 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 1: Sarah and I talked about fall color and how you know, 562 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: having we're recording this in early November, and where I 563 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: live in Pennsylvania, the fall colors are at their peaks, 564 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: and I'm just loving looking at Japanese maples, which is 565 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: the most brilliant red color right now. And many times 566 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,719 Speaker 1: of the year you don't get those bright colors in nature. 567 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, there's like two weeks in April and three 568 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: weeks in October in the beginning of November where you 569 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: get those colors, and this is one of them, and 570 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: so I'm really enjoying seeing reds that are about the 571 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: color of the sweater that Ingrid is wearing. And I 572 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: can see on the video. You guys can't say, but 573 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: trust me, it's a beautiful, bright, brilliant red and that's 574 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: all over the place right now. So that's what I'm 575 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: loving this week. I love it. Mine is maybe a 576 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: little bit more serious, but I have been listening to 577 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: Bessel vander Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score Will I 578 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: do wallpapering and painting in my office. And it's a 579 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: book that I started a long time ago but I 580 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: was never able to finish. And for those who are 581 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: not familiar with it, it's a book about trauma and 582 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: the way that all of his research on how we 583 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: heal trauma and how we come back from trauma. And 584 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: I have to say it's a difficult listen, but I 585 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: have been loving it because it really speaks to a 586 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: lot of what my work talks about on the lighter side, 587 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: which is about the connection between our body and our 588 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: surroundings and our mind and how those three things work 589 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: as kind of a system. And he's talking about it 590 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: from a place of deeper struggle and trauma, but they 591 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: sort of come together for me in this really beautiful way. 592 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: So that's my love of the week. I have an 593 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: excellent book, so people should definitely check that out, and 594 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: also check out Ingrid's book Joyful On you get this 595 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: right this time? The surprising power of ordinary things to 596 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: create extraordinary happiness? Did I get it right this time? 597 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: That's it? That's it all right, So please go check 598 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: that out. Her website. Aesthetics of joint and her Ted 599 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: talk a great insight into the things that make us happy. 600 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: So Ingrid, thank you so much for joining us. Thank 601 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Well that was amazing. 602 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: It was so fun to listen to Ingrid talking about 603 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: the aesthetics of joy. So we have a question from 604 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: a listener this week who heard our episode about layering childcare, 605 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: So please go check that out if anyone hasn't heard. 606 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: It aired in early November about how everyone needs multiple 607 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: layers of childcare, and she said that she had fact 608 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: mostly used just one layer. Namely, they've had a daycare 609 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: because her husband's office had an on site daycare, which 610 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: is of course very convenient because it's going to be 611 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: open during the hours that you are expected to be 612 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: at work, right, I just that makes sense. It is 613 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: you know there whenever the office is open, and so 614 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: they've used it right because it was so convenient for them. However, 615 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: they are thinking that possibly they may need some more 616 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: layers because they've encountered the issue of, well, what happens 617 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: when you know kids are sick and maybe they're not 618 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: that sick, but they can't go back to daycare yet, 619 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: And she says, so what kind of kids sick days? 620 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: Do you have your nanny's cover? And when do you 621 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: or your partners cancel work to be home, either because 622 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: the kids are so sick that they need a parent 623 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: because you don't want to get the giver sick, and 624 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: also do you ever have nanny take a kid to 625 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: a pediatrician? She says there are times when a sick 626 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: kid has caused a big work disruption, and she's wondering 627 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: which of those days would have been more covered in 628 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: the event of having a full time caregiver versus just 629 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: having this on site daycare at her husband's office. So, Sarah, 630 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: what have you found in terms of, you know, the 631 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: additional coverage for sick days. I feel like I need 632 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: to knock on like several surfaces right now. Sound effect 633 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: for the podcast This has not come up as much 634 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: as like one might think. I'm not saying my kids 635 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: aren't sick. They certainly get like runny noses, and in 636 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: the era of COVID that has led us to keep 637 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: them home. But I haven't had kids that were so 638 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: sick that for a long time really where I felt 639 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: uncomfortable leaving them with a caregiver. I also should knock again. 640 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm not going to make you guys listen to that, 641 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: but like my goodness, like, we haven't had a lot 642 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: of those, like family vomiting illnesses. I think that is 643 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: one where I'm not sure I would subject an outsider too. 644 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: Plus that's so contagious that I'm probably going to get it, 645 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: and do I really want to go to work like 646 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: that anyway? But for the more common, like simple respiratory illnesses, 647 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: our nanny has been fine to work. Usually by the 648 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: time the kid has a fever and is sick enough, 649 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: they've already been exposed anyway, so it's less of a 650 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh, we have to protect this 651 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: other person. I also recognize the privilege in this that 652 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: my kids don't have underlying diagnoses. I mean, my patients 653 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: with like type one diabetes. If their child is sick, 654 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: it's usually the parent has to stay home because it's 655 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: just things can come up and the management's complicated and 656 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: they're just not going to trust a caregiver to be 657 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: able to handle that. So there are scenarios where this 658 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: is incredibly challenging, but for us it hasn't been so 659 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: bad now In terms of going to appointments. If I 660 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: think this kid is sick enough to like go to 661 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: a doctor because I don't know what's going on or 662 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: need some help, I generally try to go. Unless I 663 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: had some big, big, big work thing, I just figure 664 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: stuff out and at least go to the appointment, even 665 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: if I can't be with the child all day. I have, 666 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: on a rare occasion, sent a kid if I'm like, okay, 667 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: they're completely fine, but I know they just need a 668 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: strip swab. I have sent her with our nanny, like 669 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 1: with instructions to be like, can you just get them 670 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: to do a strip swab? And then you know, we 671 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: find out if they have strap and usually it's because 672 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: I suspect they do and just go left proof or 673 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, And I have sent our nanny 674 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: to routine like dental visits and stuff like that, and 675 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: it's been fine. I'd love to be there for all 676 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: of them. My husband is almost never able to help 677 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: with any of them. And so with three kids, and 678 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: they all have eye appointments, they all have dentis, they 679 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 1: all have doctor like, every once in a while there's 680 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: one that I just can't make. I'm flexible to a point, 681 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: but like one kid had to have a cavity filled 682 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: and I couldn't make it a couple weeks ago, and 683 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 1: it was it was fine. Yeah. And I would also 684 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: point out in terms of I mean, Sarah actually is 685 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: a pediatrician, so she may know what the kid has, 686 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: and so feels more comfortable sending somebody for a routine 687 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: visit for a routine chest or whatever because she does, 688 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: in fact know what they have, right, So it's just 689 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: more of a confirmation with the child's actual medical team 690 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: than anything else. I think that'd be harder for a 691 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: lot of other people to do because they wouldn't have 692 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: that same level of knowledge and certainty on the diagnosis. 693 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: And so I think for many people it would have 694 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: been it would be harder to get their heads around 695 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: doing that because of their own lack of medical training 696 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: and that so I think we only had once where 697 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: like a grandma took a kid to the doctor because 698 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: something came up and Michael and I were both traveling, 699 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: and that's, you know, just what had to have happened 700 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: that somebody had to go for something acute that had 701 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: happened while we were both gone. One of us has 702 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: gone to all dental or doctor visits, but again we 703 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: have more flexibility of not needing to be in the 704 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: office for dental vis as we tend to like schedule 705 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: ours at the same time, so we're just like all 706 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: there and so that's more of a thing. As for 707 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: the sickness though, I got to say, we have also 708 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: found that having a nanny has meant we haven't had 709 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: to cover as many sick days, which we don't have 710 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: as many now. But I think obviously if Henry was 711 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: in a congrege care setting, he'd be getting sick all 712 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: the time. It's just the nature of young children in 713 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: a group setting is they're going to get sick and 714 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: then and many times they're not terribly sick. It's just 715 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: that if you know they have you know, diarrhea, they 716 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: can't come back for twenty four hours until after it's gone, 717 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: so you can wind up missing like a whole week, 718 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: even though they were only really feeling crummy the first 719 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: day or two. It's just took the whole week for 720 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: it to work its way through their gi system. So 721 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, then within nanny you wouldn't have that as 722 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: much because you know, presumably she would be able to 723 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: handle the messy tapers. As part of the joy of 724 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: this kind of work, you do it as a parent, 725 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: if you're caring for kids, that's part of it. You know, 726 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: we've normally what winds up happening is our caregivers will 727 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: be there when the kid is getting sick. I mean, 728 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: they're part of it, and then they may get it 729 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: themselves too, and then they'll miss a day or two 730 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: after the kid had it because they're throwing up or 731 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,959 Speaker 1: have a high fever or something, and that's just something 732 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: you have to prepare for the possibility happening. So it's 733 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: actually that you know the kid is no longer sick, 734 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: it's that your caregiver is sick because your kid got 735 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: them sick. So you know, it's hard to avoid that happening. 736 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 1: And I think many people who are in the childcare 737 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: business understand that children have germs that you get. But 738 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: the problem is, like if they stayed home when your 739 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: kid was sick, the problem is the exposure probably already happened. 740 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: Right unless, like it was a Monday morning where your 741 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: kid was getting sick and they hadn't seen them since 742 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: Friday afternoon, maybe they would have avoided the exposure. But 743 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to avoid getting a caregiver sick by 744 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: preemptive having them stay home. So just to clarify the 745 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: order that that winds up happening in of needing to 746 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: cover a day, it tends to be after the kid 747 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: is sick, rather than simultaneously while they are sick. Yes, 748 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: I mean, case in point, my poor niece just had 749 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: a very transmissible illness. I won't mention it specifics what 750 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: it was, but even though none of the kids like 751 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: went to daycare sick, the entire class got it because 752 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: what happens is they've exposed each other before anyone shows 753 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: any symptoms, and then, just like it would for a caregiver. 754 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: So I mean, that's how illness spreads, even if we 755 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: do a wonderful job of isolating and quarantining ourselves once 756 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: we show symptoms, Unfortunately a lot of times the damage 757 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: has already been done, and we're not just speaking about COVID, 758 00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: but all the other things, everything else, Yes, exactly, all right, Well, 759 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. I've been interviewing 760 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: Ingrid Fedallee about the aesthetics of joy. We will be 761 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: back next week with more on making work and life 762 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah 763 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox 764 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura 765 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both 766 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on 767 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: making work and life work together.