WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 32: New Year’s Resolutions and Unconventional Course Concepts 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.319 In a fried egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.559 Frida Egg Egg, fridagg bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:31.880 to run off of the hump. All right, welcome back 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.519 to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's guest 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.040 is a fresh edition. He's a regular guest, a fresh 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.800 edition of The Yolk with Doak, So Tom Doak joins. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.839 It's the first episode of The Yoke with Doak in 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.240 twenty twenty two. We talk, Uh, this is a really 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.600 fun episode. We talk about projects that Tom wants to do, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.440 new ideas that he hasn't done yet that he'd like 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.400 to build, and uh, some really cool ideas in here. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.160 I'm not going to spoil it, but I had my 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.280 mind racing. And yeah, we'll have another episode of this 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.640 later in the month, maybe in February or later in January, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.200 another episode of The Yoke with Doke. But thank you 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:29.920 guys for listening. And here is Tom Doak. Well, do 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:33.040 you have any New Year's resolutions? It is the New year. 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.800 This is just a layup question for US podcast hosts 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.440 to ask guests right off the vat Well. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.120 I think it's just an extension of my resolution for 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.120 a last year, which was to spend more time focusing 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.440 on the parts of my job that I like the 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.680 best and that I do really well, and then to 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:55.000 try to delegate the rest of it. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.080 What is that? What is the parts of your job 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.680 that you like the I think everybody looks at a 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.680 golf course architect and think what's there to not like 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:06.720 about that job? But what do you like the best 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.480 about being a golf architect? 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.800 Number One? The puzzle of doing a routing. When I 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.960 get a new map, it's just like you could just 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.920 lock me in a room by myself for a couple 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.760 of days after I get a new map. If it's interesting, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.240 I'm just gonna start looking at how, you know, where 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.359 do I see a piece there? Where do I see 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.160 a golf hole? And how is that going to fit 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.640 with the next one? And I was doing that for 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.440 this project in South Carolina yesterday and it's just, you know, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.720 that's just that's the most fun thing to me. And 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:43.800 then you know, the other part of it is just 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:45.880 being out there in the dirt and working with the 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.160 guys to get things built, because that's a whole that's 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.119 a different creative process, and it's more collaborative and it's 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.120 more you know, in the first part, you might see 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.840 some you might see this whole reminds you of something else, 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.600 and that's why you're attracted to it. But when you 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.440 get out there in the dirt, you tend not to 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.679 think about that anymore and you're just trying to work 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:08.520 with what you've got. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.560 Yeah, that makes sense. Once you get into the dirt, 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.280 you see what's out there, and then it just becomes 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.600 about what's out there and making it work. 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:20.760 You know. Now, I'm not trying to make it exactly 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.760 like the radan. I'm just taking this verse, this piece 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:25.919 of land right here, and making it into taking a 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:26.760 work for golf. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.280 Hearing you talk, it's a lot like my professional New 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.600 Year's resolutions, which are to do more creative work and 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.760 less of the business work that you know sometimes box 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.440 me down, you know, doing more of this, doing more 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.240 like going to see places and filming stuff. And it's 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:48.320 funny because like I think golf architects have you know, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.200 you're you're a small business and you have to do 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.800 a lot of different things, and I imagine some of 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:58.200 the proposals, the business stuff of the job can kind 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.120 of take away from the creative. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.440 Definitely. I mean, you know, most you know, most of 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.800 these kids writing me letters wanting to work for me. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.480 Imagine that we sit around the office all day dreaming, 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.480 you know, talking about golf holes, and you really don't 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.039 you hardly ever do that. Yeah, a lot of it, 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.640 you know. And you know, I mean I just said 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.280 my New Year's resolution, and yet I have no employees 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.400 to delegate anything else too, So so I have to, like, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.679 you know, I have to handle all the nitty gritty 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.440 for all the stuff that I do. But you know, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.159 I've just cut out, you know, I've pretty much cut 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.200 out consulting. And cutting out consulting also cuts out like 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.840 a ton of politics and a ton of proposals and 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:49.120 reports and back and forth emails and you know, holding 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:54.000 people's hands. You know, my new clients don't require that 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:58.279 of me nearly as much. You know, they just you know, 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.640 they want they want to. I'm working with their consult 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.279 I'm working with their consultants to try to figure out 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.599 the the you know, red lines on the map and 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.600 what I can't do, and then you know, we get 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.359 a plan together and then we get out in the 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.000 dirt and we just go at it. But there's not 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.359 you know, I communicate with clients on site. It's not 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.200 like the consulting world where you just you know. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.400 Well, there's constantly new people involved with it because there's 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.120 a new green chair, new person on the board, and 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.320 you're kind of probably going over the same things that 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.040 you've talked about for the last ten years and in 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.160 a way and you know, five. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.240 Years for a couple of my consulting clients. Man, I mean, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.840 it's it's been crazy. So yeah, I mean, you know, 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.160 I lost patience with that a long time ago because 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.880 it's just I'm telling a different person the exact same 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.279 thing I said fifteen years ago. Yeah. 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.440 Yeah, it's and you don't get a new map to 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.200 mess around with, which goes back to your year's resolution. 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.320 There's never, rarely, almost never a new map when it 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:06.280 comes to consulting. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:08.640 No, And it's you know, and at the end of 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.400 the at the end of the day, consulting is not 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.440 really a creative thing if you're doing restoration stuff like 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.960 I do. You know, if you're like taking a golf 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.200 course it's not so good and trying to change it 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.480 around and make it good. That might be creative. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.480 So we're gonna do some some guided questions, but also 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.760 a lot of listener questions. And I thought this was 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.200 a great question to kick off from from the New 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.160 Year's resolution. And we already heard the second half of it. 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.120 But Doug Greenberg asked, what else do you want to 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.600 still want to accomplish? And what do you get still 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.040 get excited about at this point in your career. So 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.800 we already got the excited thing, So what else do 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:50.960 you want to accomplish in your career? 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:57.840 You know, a few years ago, I kind of you know, well, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:02.720 thirty years ago, I used to like think that older 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.320 architects were just you know, or other architects in general 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.960 were just too pessimistic about what kind of you know, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.000 I mean the US to say what you can't know, 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.080 there's no good land left anymore. You know, I heard 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.880 that a lot twenty five years ago. Nobody says that 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:20.640 to me anymore. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.720 It seems like Google Earth like completely changed the search 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:28.440 for land because everybody is coming up with spectacular sites. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.320 Yeah maybe, and you know, you know, a handful of 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.480 developers just willing to build stuff in spectacular places, even 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.360 if it was way off the beaten track. Changed, you know, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.040 the success of those places changed a lot of things 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.440 for a lot of people. But you know, but you know, 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.960 so I've I've worked on ten or twelve or fifteen 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.920 great great pieces of land that I never thought, you 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.400 know that everybody said, oh, those don't exist anymore. But 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.920 you know, I did start thinking a few years ago, Guy, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.280 can these keep coming up? I mean, one of the 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.600 odds that you know, I keep getting more of these 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.400 and more of these. It doesn't seem like that. It 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:14.360 doesn't seem like I should count on that, and so 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.000 and and you know, and there weren't many new projects 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.679 being built in general. You know, I think I counted 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.000 last year. I've only built eight new courses in the 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.880 last twelve years. And I'm a hot architect, but you know, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:31.320 that's how little new stuff has been being built. But 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.320 you know, partly from sitting around in the pandemic for 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.400 two years, and you know, I've kind of got some 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.640 energy back. You know, It's like, you know, nothing could 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.120 make you more restless than that. So so all of 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.319 a sudden, I'm getting all these calls about new things 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.840 and they sound pretty good, especially after being on the 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.800 sidelines for a while, and it's like, yeah, let's go 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:56.360 do this. So, you know, I didn't intend to build 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.000 two or three or four new courses a year ago. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.160 Going forward, I was going to start slowing down, and 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.640 instead the opportunities are speeding up, which was completely kind 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:08.920 of unexpected for me. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.800 Yeah. Yeah, it seems like the last time we talked 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.240 you you mentioned right at the top that you know, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.080 you this is about as busy as you've ever seen it, 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.480 you know, since the economic collapse in two thousand and eight. 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.400 So you know, with that, I mean, what are you 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.320 kind of looking to do? I think something from from 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.319 my standpoint that I really admire about your career when 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.760 you look at the different projects is how different everything 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.600 is and there are different concepts and you like to 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.400 you know, it's not hey, we're just gonna build this 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.080 this golf course and we've we did this before and 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.280 it worked really well, so let's keep doing that. It's hey, 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:54.080 we have new concepts, the reversible course, the idea with 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:59.360 Sedge Valley, which is back on at at at Sand Valley, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.440 where you're doing a par sixty eight. A lot of 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.120 different types of golf courses. Do you have different concepts 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.400 that you really want to try and build, you know, 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.040 in the next you know, twenty years, I do. 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.560 I mean, you know, part of what you were talking 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.680 about I just kind of stumbled into, you know, I mean, 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.319 I'm interested by different things. So when somebody throws out 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.200 an idea about you know, just I mean as simple 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.559 as different as like, Okay, let's you know, let's build 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.160 a forty dollars golf course in Colorado. Yeah, we haven't 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.160 done something like that. That'll be fun. Or you know, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.640 let's take a course, Let's take a muni in Houston 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.000 and turn it into a PGA tour site. Yeah, that's 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:49.000 that's like, never done that before. That'd be cool, even 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.400 though they're not spectacular pieces of land. And yes, I 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:57.160 have a few concepts that, you know, like the reversible course. 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.800 I've sort of been sitting on them for a few years. 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.240 I've thought about these things a lot, but you know, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.040 just haven't had the right client to go this is 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.240 the place for that. And you know, I didn't want 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.040 to just put the idea out there and watch go 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.640 Hants or somebody else build it instead of me. But 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.360 at this point in my career, it's like, well I 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.640 might as well put the concept out there. You know, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.160 maybe I'll get to do it. If I don't get 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.360 to do it, maybe somebody else will do it. But 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:25.760 at least somebody will do it. 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.839 Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is that, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.760 you know, in putting the idea out there, bye, you know, 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.920 it might land somewhere with somebody that has the means 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.280 to be able to do that idea. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.400 Yeah. Yeah. And the funny thing is some of them 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.200 are you know, the more conceptual something is generally the 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.439 plane or the piece of ground you want for it. 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.040 I mean, you know, if you've got a site that 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:54.840 has beautiful specimen trees and really good topography or a 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.080 coastline or a bunch of views, you've got it designed 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.160 to that you can't you know, you shouldn't be thinking about, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.320 you know, doing a reversible golf course or something like that. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.000 You know, that just doesn't make sense the same way. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.720 So, like an example of that would be your new 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.560 project at trt ti uh terry Edes Public Resort, where 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.120 you've got you know, some ocean front holes and then 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:25.960 you go up into dramatic pines, sand pines right right right. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.199 Although you know, one of the concepts I've had floating 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.200 around for years, and I've talked a little about it 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:38.760 with Rick Kane is, you know, depite despite everybody loving 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:43.640 Pine Valley, nobody really has ever has tried to replicate 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.560 Pine Valley. That Pine by the Pine Baran's course at 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.240 World is probably the closest thing to it. But even 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.440 that is like, you know, it's Pine Valley light. You know, 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.280 it's not really hard off the fairways, it's not you know, 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.439 so the strategic things don't matter as much because you've 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.319 got plenty room to avoid the trouble on a lot 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.679 of the holes. And you know, there's no reason you 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.960 can't build an I mean, Pine Valley's a great piece 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.560 of land, but there's no reason you can't build something 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.960 like Pine Valley if you had a good piece of 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.160 land to do it on it. And you know, the 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.200 reason it doesn't happen is because most developers are afraid 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.240 to write off a certain percentage of golfers. Is just 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.600 they wouldn't be able to get around this, So we 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.960 can't do that. But Rick, especially at this point in 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.320 his life, is like you know, just out there on 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.240 the edge wanting to do something great. So we've talked 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.200 about those inland holes. That inland terrain kind of reminds 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.040 me of Pine Valley. It's got the scale of undulation, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:48.800 it's all sandy. You know, it's pretty dramatic. And you know, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.960 the only way that that course is going to compete 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.520 with Bill COR's fifteen holes along the water is if 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.480 when we go inland, we go all out and it's 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.800 really dramatic. I've you know, I've got to sit down 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.199 with Rick and say are you are you really ready 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:06.040 for us to do that? 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.440 Yeah. And one of the things I think with with 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.040 golf architecture, especially public and resort golf, is one of 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.960 the reactions over the last twenty years, and I think 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.640 you were a big part of this, is is with 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.600 and playability. You know, has the pendulum gone too far 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.160 one way with every everything being super wide and they're 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.360 not being a lot of penalty off the tea which 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.200 a Pine Valley like golf course would invoke. 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.880 Yes, I think that pendulum went way too far. And 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.080 you know Pine Valley is wide too, I mean Pine Valley. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.120 You know, I'm just saying like there is potential for 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.320 some sort of trouble off the tea. 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.160 True, yes, there is. Yes, nobody's gotten through more than 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:54.359 about four hold Pine Valley before recognizing there is potential 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.160 for trouble there. But yeah, but you know, yeah, pine 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.800 Valley is sixty yards wide. It's not. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.480 If you were going to do you know, so with 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.000 this modern representation, you know, how is modern Pine Valley 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.320 different from you know, original Pine Valley? Is there anything 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.640 that would be different with with today's game from from 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:16.360 the original. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.040 Well, I think, you know, one of the things that 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.360 I like about that concept is, you know, Pine Valley 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.440 has changed in the last ten or twelve years. They've 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:32.640 lengthened it substantially. You know, before that it was a 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.200 sixty seven hundred yard part seventy golf course and tour 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.520 protypes didn't hit driver there a lot. You know, they 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.160 were hitting three woods and one irons to the fairways 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.800 on a lot of the holes, and they were okay 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.080 with that, and it worked fine for it, and it 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:54.000 worked well for you know, five to ten handicappers who 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.960 are the members. So so I think I'd want that 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.040 version of Pine Valley and not the you know, when 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.400 you stretch it out to max length, so that the 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.720 best players in the world can hit driver all the time. 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.520 A it loses the intimacy, you know, the green to 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.240 tea walks get all messed up. B you know, you 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.320 just you start thinking about the scale for those guys, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.280 and it kind of blows the scale for everybody else, 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.160 especially if you've got some carries involved, you know, because 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.200 what's a what's a totally irrelevant carry to a tour 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.560 pro is, you know, is a really hard shot for 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.440 the average guy. I've got a good story about that. 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.160 I was, you know, the the Renaissance Club for the 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.720 Scottish Open is has signed up Pidrig Harrington to consult 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:45.440 a little bit on the golf course. So I spent 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.560 I spent a little time with him last summer and 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.720 you know, talking through the holes and it was great 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.040 to talk to him, super nice guy. But you know, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.440 we got to talking about the seventeenth hole there, which 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.400 is a fairly long part three. It's like a one 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.440 ninety two hundred yard hole, and there's a bunker short 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.679 left of the green deep bunker, but it kind of 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.520 sits down so you don't see it very well, and 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.120 he didn't remember it was there, you know, And it's 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:17.399 a nasty bunker, and I was kind of shocked that 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.720 he didn't remember it was there. And then after talking 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.560 about it for a minute, he was like, well, you know, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.680 they put the pin pretty deep in the green there 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.600 because it runs away from the bunker a little bit. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.840 So I'm trying to fly at eight yards over the bunker, 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.600 and if I'm trying to carry the bunker by eight yards, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:35.359 I'm never going to ever hit it in the bunker, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.720 you know. So he's talking about like one hundred and 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.240 ninety yard carry with a five iron or six iron 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.240 or whatever he's hitting, but he is never going to 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:46.560 miss eight yards short. 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:51.359 Yeah, I mean, and that's what's rendered that water short 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.119 of green so irrelevant almost right. It's like you know 0:17:55.200 --> 0:18:00.080 where it's just the greatest extrapolator of skill is I 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.760 don't know if that word is correct there, but it's 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.800 the It just pushes a skill gap in a far direction. 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.080 I think one of the interesting things about you know, 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.080 I find myself in a lot of modern courses just 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.520 hitting driver everywhere, like you alluded to, And I think 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.960 one of the things that happens when you don't hit 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:25.360 driver everywhere is golf courses play significantly longer than their yardage, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.520 where a sixty seven hundred yard course can play like 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.400 a seven thousand yard course. The other thing it does 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.680 is it kind of tests good players restraint because you know, 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.520 they want to hit driver. People want to hit driver, 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.720 They want to push it as close as they can get. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.920 And sometimes what you can do is you can kind 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.080 of egg people into doing something they don't necessarily they 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.560 shouldn't necessarily do percentage wise, because they're being asked to 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.800 lay back a little bit more than they would like to, right. 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.880 And there's a flip side of that too. I mean, 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.879 sometimes they'll get themselves in trouble being impatient and going 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.960 for it. But other times they'll lay back and hit 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.040 a foe iron and then hit a bad four iron 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.520 and you know, make the whole pretty hard for themselves. 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.119 And then they're really frustrated because they think I actually 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.840 hit driver. But you're right. I mean, Crystal Downs is 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.480 a great extent. You know, it's only sixty five hundred yards, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.040 but those four short part fours, you know, until recently, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.159 nobody ever hit driver on them. You're always hitting the 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.359 you know, maybe four wood, maybe three iron or four iron, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.359 so you know, so you had longer shots into the greens. 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:35.399 It wasn't just a push it. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:40.159 You know, crystal downs is a great topic because you 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.240 know a player of that is now on the PGA Tour, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.320 Nick Hardy, just set the course record a couple of 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.320 years ago out there. I'd read sure if I ever 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.000 talked about this on the pod. But Nick and I 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.840 have known each other for a number of years, and 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.720 he's we've always talked about crystal downs and how hard 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.280 it is given the short nature of it, and he's 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.080 he's told me so many times he's just so frustrated 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.320 by the place because he feels like he should shoot 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.920 these low numbers, but he always gets him He gets 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.160 himself in positions where he's got these side hill lies 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.280 with like fifty yard wedge shots, and he's just like, 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.919 these are shots I don't hit. And I realize, like, 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.840 you know, it just requires so much patience out there. 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.280 And you know, he he sent me a back like 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.560 I finally slayed the beast when he set the course record. 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.000 And this is a course that a PGA Tour player 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.520 had played hundreds of times before he finally got there, 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.640 you know, And I think he did it like two 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:37.840 years ago when he was on the corn Ferry tour. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.800 So that's a perfect example. I always walk away from 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.719 there is God that course is so fricking hard, and 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.119 it's just it doesn't appear to be hard. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.280 You know, Well, I don't know what you're looking at 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.040 besides the scorecard. If you don't think it appears to be. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:57.240 Hard, well you feel like you should be able to 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.840 bully it. But what happens when you try and bully 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:02.200 it is it It punches you right back in the face. 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.800 That's true of a lot of McKenzie's courses. It's the 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.480 same for Posita Tiampo, It's kind of the same for 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.080 a Cyprus Points. It's the same for that little Cavendish 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.600 thing that's like fifty nine hundred yards. It's still like 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:17.400 there's a lot of there's a lot of places where 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.400 you can make a big number just by making one mistake. 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:25.120 Yeah, that's a course that I've looked at a million times, 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.399 like just photos I scour because that's one of the 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.040 places I bost want to see when I go over 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.159 to the UK this year. It's finally going to happen 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:40.280 this year. But you know, the uh, one of the 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.520 things that I've heard you talk a lot about before 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.560 on this pod, is the idea of designing a course 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.440 for the women's game. I assume that's probably still in 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.520 your you know, desires of new concepts. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.480 Very much so. And it's a hard one to do 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:03.560 because it's it's politically incorrect to talk that way. I mean, 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.720 you know, I mean even my you know, I've said 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.359 to Angela Moser, I've said to my wife, you know, 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.639 I'd like to build a course that's it's more geared 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.240 toward women golfers. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, don't 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.520 say it that way. And I'm like, why not, you know, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.000 And what I'm talking about is nearly all women golfers. 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.199 You know, well, the average women golfer doesn't doesn't have 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.520 a very high swing speed, doesn't hit it too far, 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.040 but a lot of them could hit it through a 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.760 doorway from a hundred or one hundred and forty or 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.359 one hundred and fifty yards away. They're just they're so 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:43.080 straight because partly because they don't they're not overswinging, you know, 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.760 trying to overpower it so they could drive it one 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:50.080 seventy instead of one to fifty. But they just they 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.880 have way more control. And you know, and that scales 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.000 up to the women pros too. I mean, some of 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.080 them hit it really far now, but they still hit 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:02.480 it really straight compared to the guys in the bit 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.880 of spectating that I see. You do not see them 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:10.879 hitting a foul ball eighty yards right hardly? Ever. Yeah, so, 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.080 I mean you said it before that. You know. I 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.240 was kind of taught as a young golfer and architect. 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.160 All the good players told me, don't take driver out 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:23.920 of my hands, you know, just you know, it may 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.000 not be the right club to hit, but don't like 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:31.520 narrow it down to nothing or put a cad you know, 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:33.600 make me lay up because a belt of rough goes 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.720 across or anything. Just let me hit driver however far 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:39.640 I can. So we've all been taught to do that. 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:42.840 And you know what we've been doing is just pandering 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.240 to guys who hit it long and wrong. You know, 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.480 we've we've we've come to think, well, we have to 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.280 give them all that. You know, they're gonna swing at 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.000 it really hard, so we have to give them all 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.040 this room. And it's like, why do not make it 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:57.760 hard for him to do that? You know, why not 0:23:57.880 --> 0:23:59.560 make it so hard for them that they have to 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.879 think about gearing down. The hard part is to you know, 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.760 now you're talking about areas that are not the fairway, 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.240 that are kind of out of play, you know, out 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.440 of play. You know, how are you going to set 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.080 them up and maintain them? So you don't want to 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.080 be there, but you can still find the ball. But 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.600 if you could do that, women golfers would be fine 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:26.520 with twenty and thirty yard wide targets. You'd water a 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.880 lot less, you know, environment, there's a lot of reasons 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:34.560 it would be better. There's one old golf course is 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.520 Stanley Thompson Course in Toronto. The Ladies Golf Club of 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:42.400 Toronto used to, i think still only ladies can be members. 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.040 Men can play the golf course as a guest, but 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:49.560 it's a lady membership. So Thompson really designed it for women. 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:53.320 And so that meant there's dog leg holes that dog 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.080 leg at two hundred yards off the team, you know, 0:24:57.240 --> 0:24:59.359 and you know, and now you know on this course 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.399 there's a lot of so you look at that the 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:06.280 first time as a man and you're like, god, well, 0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:08.160 you know, I'm gonna have to hit five iron off 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:11.199 the tee all day or whatever to to keep it 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:14.439 in play. But you know, if you take away some 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.760 of the trees, now you're saying, okay, you know you're 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:20.399 not going for the normal fairway. You're gonna have to 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:22.800 be carrying things. You're going to have to be carrying 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:25.359 hazards to that other part of the fairway if you 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.240 want to hit drive. You know, that's more challenging than 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:33.160 just sixty yards of fairway going straight down. Yeah. 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:35.600 You know, I had Christine to Kim on the podcast 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:38.080 a couple of years ago, who plays on the LPGA tour, 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:40.960 and she talked and she's, you know, she's into golf 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.880 architecture and traveling and seeing courses, and she talked about 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.199 how you know, when you've got a you know, sixty 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.159 yard wide fairway with a center line bunker, you know 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:53.440 she's going to pick a side and it's going to 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.159 be very easy for her to thread the needle of 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.040 that side, you know, and she like laughs about how 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:04.520 wide it is. And in a way I've always wondered about, like, 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:08.320 you know, the way the USGA sometimes sets up for 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:13.320 men's us opens is like those like where Wingfoot we 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:15.400 saw a couple of years ago with twenty five yard 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:19.720 wide fairways twenty two yard wide fairways. That's a better 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:23.439 test of the women's game than the men's game because 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.399 of just the you know, a woman who's driving it 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.600 really well could conceivably hit eighty percent of those fairways. 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:33.199 A man that's driving a well, like they're gonna have 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:35.119 a great driving day and they're gonna be like, oh, 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.040 I hit sixty percent of the fairways. And it all 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:40.520 of a sudden, like, you know, if somebody's driving the 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:42.760 ball well, you want them to be able to hit fairways. 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:48.280 So for a women's you know tournament, you know, narrow 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:52.520 fairways and rough isn't necessarily the worst thing, right. 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:57.399 No, And you know, all the feedback that I've gotten 0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.920 from the players for the Houston Open is all around 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:02.399 and yeah, it actually matters if we hit in the 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:06.560 fairway here because you know, the rough is not super deep, 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:08.400 but you can't spin the ball out of the rough. 0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:12.800 And then at the at the green end, if if 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.359 you can't spin the ball, that the ball tends to 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:17.280 go off the side of the green and down into 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:18.639 trouble on one side or the other. 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.119 Yeah, I mean, it's a It's one of the things 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:26.800 I've seen like, you know, there's been commentary about you know, 0:27:27.040 --> 0:27:31.159 potentially like women. You know, I know Brandal Chamblie has 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:34.200 been talking about how he wants to build TPC sawgrass 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:39.800 for women in Mexico, and then there's been commentary Beth 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:42.840 and nichols Is, you know, she writes for Golf Week 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:47.160 covers the women game. She's talked about how women's golf 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.919 needs to be kind of pushed more where it's shorter 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.840 courses and they should be hitting more wedges and scoring 0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:57.040 should be more similar to the men's game. It seems 0:27:57.080 --> 0:27:59.760 like this would push it the other the opposite way 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:02.600 of that and more towards you know, we're going to 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:04.680 really test their skills. 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:10.040 Yes, you know, they're I mean, there's a dichotomy there, 0:28:10.040 --> 0:28:14.000 and I don't think that the women players all agree 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.560 on what the best way to do it is because 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.359 because you know, they've just announced all these new US 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:22.200 Women's Open sites, they're going to some of the courses 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:25.440 that the men have historically played, and they're all excited 0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:27.959 about that. You know, they're really excited about it from 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:30.840 the standpoint of, you know, we want to show what 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:33.200 we can do on the best courses. And I remember 0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:35.119 you know, years ago the first time they played the 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.520 Women's Open at Oakmont, you know, Patty she and Beth 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.040 Daniel and those players, they all love that challenge of 0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:44.080 going there and seeing what they could do on the 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.960 golf course, you know, not with it. You know, they 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:48.920 didn't play it all the way back where the men did, 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:50.760 but they you know, they played it where the members 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:53.920 do basically, and it was still a real challenge for them. 0:28:53.960 --> 0:28:57.200 But but you know, they felt like that was a 0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:59.880 great you know, a great challenge. So I don't think 0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:02.760 I don't think very many of them agree with the 0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:06.280 idea that it should be like the PGA Tour week 0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:09.000 to week where we want to shoot thirty under par. 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:13.720 Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I think. Like one 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:16.280 of the things that, you know, I got a text 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:20.719 from somebody, you know, Michael Wolfe, big book collector, historian. 0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:25.080 He messaged me after that announcement. He said, how many 0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:29.360 courses are out there today are more interesting to watch 0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:34.240 the men than women play, you know, at professional level? 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:37.360 And in the list was really short. And I think 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:40.480 it's because like the way these courses were originally designed 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.200 the game that it's much more close to the women's 0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:46.320 professional game. Now there are women that are out there 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:48.719 hitting at three hundred yards, but there aren't. You know, 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:51.720 it's not a prerequisite to being playing out there, which 0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:54.000 you know, I think that mirrors what it was like 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:57.320 in nineteen twenty five, where you read about Jones hitting 0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:00.240 drives occasionally three hundred yards, right. 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:02.440 Yes, I think that's right. And you know, I mean 0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:04.560 when I talked to when I spent time with Harrington 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:07.479 this summer, he said, you know, I asked him if 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.080 he if he had changed how he attacks golf holes, 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:13.360 you know, as a result of all the you know, 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:15.920 new books and stuff about strategy, and he said, yes, 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:20.560 absolutely he does. And you know, he kind of he 0:30:20.680 --> 0:30:25.360 kind of felt stupid about playing more conservatively years ago. 0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:27.840 But then he said, but then he paused for a second, 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:32.120 and he said, but honestly, you know, the difference now 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.680 is you have to because everybody else is so long. 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:37.520 You know, you can't, you know, he said, you know, 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:41.880 twenty years ago when he played, there were maybe only 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:46.840 twenty guys who were really long, significantly longer that it 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:49.640 gave them an advantage, and in any given week, half 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.440 of them weren't there. And half of the guys that 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.280 were there, weren't playing that well. So now you're down 0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:58.840 into like two or three guys who are significantly longer 0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.160 than you and really playing and you might beat him, 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:07.760 but you know, now there's sixty guys and you have that, 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:10.960 you have that again, and you're still like planned for 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:15.719 fifteenth place. If you're short and you're playing conservatively, you 0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:18.440 just can't afford to do it. 0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:22.040 Hark is such an interesting guy because he's really thinks 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:26.080 about the game like he's a maniacal tinkerer with his 0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:29.360 golf swing. But he delivered I think probably the quote 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:33.240 of last year in the lead up of the PGA, 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:36.080 and I'm curious just what your thoughts are from a 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:41.160 golf architecture standpoint. He said, you know, experience isn't all 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.000 it's cracked up to be. I'm paraphrasing slightly here because 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:46.560 I don't have the quote from me. Experience isn't it 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:50.440 all it's cracked up to be? Uh, the more experiencing 0:31:51.080 --> 0:31:54.280 you gain, the less innocence you have. And I'm curious, 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:58.880 from a golf architecture standpoint, a really good golf, well 0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:01.840 designed golf course, you almost think about more and more 0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:04.600 you play, right, Yes. 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.480 You know, like I mean, you know, the famous example 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:10.040 is the Old Course, you know. I mean, on one hand, 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:13.720 it's pretty simple and there's a lot of room, and 0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:15.880 if you just stay left most of the time and 0:32:15.920 --> 0:32:20.240 avoid the trouble, you can get around it, okay. But 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:23.240 but you're always tempted. You always see, you always see. 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:26.800 But the really cool shot would be to hit it 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:29.800 close to that bunker and steer it off that mound 0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:31.960 and it would roll right to the hall. So the 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:34.720 better you are, the more things you see out there 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:36.720 that will get you in trouble if you try to 0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:40.200 do it and fail instead of just playing it really conservatively. 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.120 But you know, I mean part of your the thing 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:46.680 that your quote reminded me of, you know, I mean, 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:49.239 I was a big Jack Nicholas fan growing up, and 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:51.959 Nicholas always at the start of a tournament he had 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:53.800 a number in his head about what it would take 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:58.240 to win the tournament, and a lot of times he 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:01.720 lost because somebody else else shot a lot lower than that. 0:33:02.680 --> 0:33:05.480 You know. They they weren't thinking the golf course was 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:08.239 that hard, and they just attacked it more and they 0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:11.600 played pretty well. And he had played conservatively for the 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:13.240 first two or three days and he got to where 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:17.080 he couldn't catch them. You know, he played well enough 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:18.760 to do what he thought it would take to win, 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:24.360 and he was just wrong because somebody else thought the 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.680 golf course isn't really that hard. I can attack this. 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:31.200 Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's the true of Edie. 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:35.200 Eddie Turbine golfer, would would think as a golf architect. 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:38.080 You know, there's I was thinking the two ways you 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:40.960 could frame this as a golf architect. Is that true 0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.680 what Harrington said about being a player, where you know, 0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:47.040 sometimes experience isn't all it's cracked up to be, and 0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:50.720 you see problems, you know, and you're wary of things, 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.240 and you lose some of the innocence and maybe the 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:58.880 some naive you know, naivety. I never pronounced that right, 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:02.440 but you're you're naive nature. You you miss out on 0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:05.880 something really cool because of all your experience. Obviously, experience 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.799 saves you a lot in different situations. But where inexperience 0:34:09.920 --> 0:34:13.759 actually helps with golf design, I don't know. 0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:20.160 That inexperience helps, But inexperience gives you more potential outcomes, 0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:23.480 some really good ones and some really bad ones. So 0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:27.160 when you have more experience, you're eliminating the bad potential 0:34:27.200 --> 0:34:30.160 outcome same way players, do you know, you're just like, Okay, 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:32.040 I have tomit. I'm not going to build a hole 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:36.040 there because that might be too severe, so I better 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:39.880 not do that. And you know, if you hadn't a 0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:42.399 thought that you might build something that some people think 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:45.359 it's the greatest hole I've ever seen. Oh, it's it's 0:34:45.400 --> 0:34:49.080 just so wild and crazy and different. And you're more 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.600 likely to build that when you're thirty five years old 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:53.359 than when you're fifty five years old. 0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:55.879 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:56.799 You know. 0:34:57.040 --> 0:34:59.480 I think that way too, with like a lot of things. 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:01.360 What do you you know, the older you get, the 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:04.160 more you have to lose, So you're you're you know, 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.680 you can make bad decisions, but some of those decisions 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:09.799 that could have that you live at those you know. 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:13.960 Well, yeah, And it's funny about that too, because you're known, 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:22.200 you know, everybody people do act they get more conservative 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:25.200 as they get older. It's nearly universally true of people. 0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:28.080 And you wonder why. I mean, I'm at the point 0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:30.000 in my career where I got money in the bank, 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:32.480 and I don't you know, I'm not gonna like never 0:35:32.520 --> 0:35:34.640 get hired again if I build a course and it 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:37.440 doesn't turn out well, so I can take a chance. 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:40.400 You know, if I was thirty five now, it'd be 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:42.799 hard to take a chance because like one wrong move 0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.480 and you'll never work again. There's so many other talented people. 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:50.200 Well, people always ask me about my life, like what 0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:53.600 made me do what I did, which was like leave 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.920 a very good job and start something in a completely 0:35:57.960 --> 0:36:00.799 different field. And I always say, like, I was at 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:04.799 the very very perfect life situation. I was like twenty eight, 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.160 I was single, I was dating my wife, but I 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:10.319 wasn't married, and she was like we were just like 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.680 in the right situation to take a risk. And like, 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:16.560 if it had happened four years later, three years later, 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:19.399 I wouldn't have I wouldn't have taken the risk because 0:36:19.400 --> 0:36:21.560 I would have had too much going on. And it's 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:25.760 just an it's experience is an interesting, a very fickle 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.640 thing that applies to everybody's lives, you know. And I 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:32.560 think that Harrington quotes just it It resonated with so 0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:35.920 many people because everybody could listen to that and think, 0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:37.799 h he's kind of right about that. 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:41.279 Yeah, yeah, I mean one of the things we do, 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:44.400 we try to do on all every golf course we build, 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.880 is you know, hire some young kids for the crew. 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:50.960 You know, have somebody out there who will say the 0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:55.279 crazy thing. So either we can explain to him why no, no, no, 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:59.239 that'll get you killed, or yeah, why don't you try that? 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:02.080 And well we'll see if it works. 0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:05.000 Who who's the person that tells? Are you're kind of 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:07.920 the editor in your role where your associates build or 0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:11.319 shape out stuff? And then are you the line or 0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:13.479 do you have somebody that that cubs in and says 0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:14.640 this has passed the line? 0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:18.839 No, usually it's me, but I mean, you know, we 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:21.560 talk about it more amongst ourselves. You know, it's not 0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:24.480 it's not always me making the call. And I you 0:37:24.480 --> 0:37:26.799 know I told those guys years ago, Look, I don't 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.200 I don't want to always be the guy who's toning 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:32.960 you down. You know, it's don't don't always push it 0:37:33.000 --> 0:37:35.000 to the edge. Give give me some places I can 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:36.680 make it harder instead of easier. 0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:40.480 Do you have any good stories of the edge and 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:43.760 a discussion with the group that you that jump to mind? 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:48.480 Well, I mean, in getting to eighteen, I talked about 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:50.600 that that part of three where you're gonna build a 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:52.880 kid kidnappers. It was just hanging off the side of 0:37:52.920 --> 0:37:57.040 the cliff. I mean, that was That's the only hale 0:37:57.080 --> 0:37:59.960 I've ever considered building. That was a scary hole from 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:02.320 the prospect of just just standing on it would have 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:06.239 been scary. And you know, we seriously thought about doing 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:08.560 that and we're going in you know, we were pretty 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:11.600 far along in the process of committed to like you know, 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.600 when we decided not to do it. The thirteenth hole 0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.120 that we wound up building, we hadn't really even looked 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:19.840 at what the alternative was to squeeze in another little 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:22.480 hole in there, so that whole wound up being like it. 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:24.640 You know, we only had room to build about one 0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:28.239 hundred and twenty five yard Part three, which turned out 0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:30.360 to be a cool hole. But but you know, the 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.400 reason it's so short is because we crammed it in 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:35.200 there at the last minute thinking we were thinking the 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:37.440 green was off the side of the hill and eighty 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:41.799 feet further down instead. But you know, part of that 0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:46.440 conversation was was Brian Slanik, who was going to take 0:38:46.480 --> 0:38:48.640 a piece of equipment down there and build it. There 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.000 were the there was there were a couple of mounds 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:53.160 down and there there was just barely room for a 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.279 green and there were a couple of mounds that we're 0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:58.160 going to have to knock down. And you know, when 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:01.000 you're working by the coast in Australia, in New Zealand, 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:05.200 every mound is a potential like bury pit of some 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:08.279 kind and the lasting in the world that you want 0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:12.279 to actually actually dig into. So you know, that was 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.200 the straw that broke the camel's back. It's like, I 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:19.560 can't go down there and dig through those mounts. That 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:22.560 was our warning sign of okay, let's not do this. 0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:28.279 So what are do you have any other uh, you know, 0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:31.080 new concepts that you like to talk about? 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:35.040 Yeah, I should. I should have my little list handy 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:39.839 and I don't you know one of you know, the 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:44.200 the the par sixty eight shorter golf courses won and 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:47.120 I'm glad to be doing that of course for women, 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:50.040 which is kind of related. You know. It's like, you know, 0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:53.759 it's not so much about length, it's about accuracy and 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:58.920 scaling everything down. That's that's a big one. And I'd 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.080 still like to do that some and I don't know, 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:02.960 you know, to me, it's like the best place for 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:05.280 that is a resort with four or five golf courses, 0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:08.040 like you know, like you know, maybe in Bandon they 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:13.720 don't they don't, they don't talk as much about trying 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.040 to advertise and market to women, but stream Song does. 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.600 Stream Song like every conversation is like, how can we 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:21.920 get more women to come here? It's like, what if 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:23.920 you build a golf course it was more geared to women. 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:30.000 Yeah, we got a question about that, about gearing courses 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:33.200 to women from Abby Libenthal, and it was, you know, 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:35.960 I think one thing that every almost every course could 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:40.000 improve on is tea placement. And she asked what makes 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:44.200 for a good forward tea placement? And and then she 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:46.440 goes on to say, I've played so many bad ones 0:40:46.480 --> 0:40:49.520 plopped in the fairway nearly behind a tree, But there 0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:52.520 are playable ones out there too, So like, what's what 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:54.960 what makes for a good forward tea placement? 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:59.080 Well, you can't say. I mean, the temptation is to 0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:03.360 say so it plays the same for the ladies that 0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:05.919 it does for the men, But that doesn't really work 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:08.960 the same way because if you don't get the women 0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:13.000 farther up there, you know, further up in the landing area, 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:16.279 or to a new landing area where they can hit 0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:19.839 a shorter club into the green. You know there it's 0:41:19.880 --> 0:41:21.920 going to be way harder for them. So you can't 0:41:21.960 --> 0:41:24.400 just set it up with the with the landing area 0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:28.399 for the men in mind. But you know, it's it's 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:31.040 easier to talk about what not to do. I mean, 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:33.839 the one that I've heard the most complaints from women 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:36.719 about is, you know, you push the tea. You push 0:41:36.800 --> 0:41:39.000 the tea pretty far up into one side or the 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.080 other so it's not in the way visually from the 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:44.960 from the men's teas, and then they just don't have 0:41:45.680 --> 0:41:47.960 they don't have a good angle. They hit it far 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:50.719 down the fairway. It's like they have to aim kind 0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:52.640 of through the middle of the landing area and they're 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:54.480 going to go out the other side into the rough 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:58.479 if they hit a halfway long drop, you know, because 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:00.600 you're setting them up. You know, you've got a straight 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:03.600 fairway going down in some trees, and then you're making 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:07.200 them hit diagonally across that space and it just doesn't 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.560 work very well. So you've got to you know, you've 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:13.360 got to give them, you know, the I mean, the 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:15.560 fallacy is thinking that all women hit the ball the 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:17.759 same distance. Oh yeah, I only have to worry about 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:19.839 them hitting it one hundred and fifty yards from here. 0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:22.200 Now there's women that are going to easily hit it 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.759 two hundred yards from that tee and you've got to 0:42:24.760 --> 0:42:26.680 give them a line to do that. 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:31.200 Mm yeah, yeah, because if you get it up to 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:33.920 the if if everybody's taking from one fifty, you know, 0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:36.839 whether it's a junior, whether it's a twelve year old 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:41.719 playing a senior, or a lady like you know, one 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:45.160 fifty for me is a wedge or a nine iron 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:47.640 and for them, you know, for my mom, she's hidden 0:42:47.840 --> 0:42:51.600 a wood. Yes, so it can't play that. So you 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.560 need you almost need new landing area. I never thought 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:57.920 about the landing area conundrum. 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.440 Yeah, And that's you know the hardest part is when 0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:04.200 you're on when you are an undulating land. You know, 0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:06.719 you're you're trying to set the landing area kind of 0:43:06.719 --> 0:43:08.719 into a little bit of an upslope where you can 0:43:08.760 --> 0:43:13.880 see it, okay, and now you want the shorter hitters 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:16.040 to play up and hit it past there and down 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.080 the hill on the other side, which would be okay, 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:21.680 but they you know, now they're landing area is invisible 0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:22.759 for them the same way. 0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:26.799 Yeah, with the way so many places have it oriented. 0:43:27.320 --> 0:43:30.879 Where I grew up, Caddie, the forward t is six 0:43:31.000 --> 0:43:35.400 thousand yards and it's par seventy seven. It was nuts. 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:38.080 But like when you think about it, you know, the 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:40.319 people that play the forward t are gonna be the 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:43.400 last people to hit and then so often they're the 0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:45.800 first people to hit the next shot. So if you 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:48.759 have good forward tes, it actually will help your pace 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:49.520 of play too. 0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:54.680 Absolutely. Yeah. I mean a friend of mine, her mom 0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:57.279 was a really good player in La and they had 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:01.040 joined a new club out in Seemi Valley and she 0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:04.000 really liked the golf course and you know, and she she, 0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:06.920 you know, she'd played bel Air and Riviera in places 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:08.920 like that historically. And I was like, what do you 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:10.759 like about this new course so much? And she said 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:13.239 it only has four par fives. I was like wow. 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:16.960 And then I was like, oh, you know, because like 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:19.640 Riviera and La Country Club had seven or eight par 0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:22.440 fives for women back in the day they had, you 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:24.279 know that they were just the same as you were 0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:27.279 talking about, no forward tis. You know, the four hundred 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:28.879 yard olds were parf fis. 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:31.839 Yeah. The first hole at this place is like four 0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:35.200 fifty par four and it's just got a twenty yard 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:37.680 box and it's at the very front of this twenty 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:39.880 yard box. It's just it's just boxers. 0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:41.440 It's uh. 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:45.120 Every time I go back, I just I'm like, it's 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:48.160 just you remember it was just a slog and so hard. 0:44:49.840 --> 0:44:54.360 You know, while we're talking about new designs, Will Bardwell 0:44:54.400 --> 0:44:57.040 had a question for you that I thought was I 0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:00.120 hadn't really ever thought about from a design standpoint, and 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:03.840 I was curious if you had, have you begun factoring 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:07.480 climate change into your designs, and if so, what does 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:08.640 that look like? If not? 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:15.040 Why? Uh, well, I guess the only place I've ever 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:18.840 really thought about it. We were looking at a project 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:22.080 in the Caribbean years ago, and supposedly they're still going 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:26.720 to build this golf course someday. But the original site 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:31.320 was had, you know, had a lot of coastline, but 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:33.560 they were only going to, let me use, like, you know, 0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:35.680 a couple of par threes and maybe a short part 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:37.600 four along the water because they were going to sell 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:41.120 residential stuff for the rest of it. But you know, 0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:44.920 all of it was like eight feet above sea level, 0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:48.520 and you know, and at some point along the way 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:52.279 I was like, well, if the seeds keep rising, this 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.839 thing is not very high above sea level, This isn't 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.239 going to work out so good long term. Why don't 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:00.840 we build it up on the hill instead? Yeah, you know, 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:04.120 instead of just two instead of two holes on the 0:46:04.160 --> 0:46:09.160 coast and fifteen holes on really flat, dull ground close, 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:13.799 you know, two houses removed from the ocean, why not 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:17.719 just go build a you know, more or less core 0:46:17.760 --> 0:46:21.480 a golf course on higher ground. So that's what we're 0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:21.880 gonna do. 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:24.360 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:46:25.400 --> 0:46:25.600 You know. 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:29.879 Of course, a concept that you've you kind of put 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:33.360 as one that you were interested in in an email 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:38.000 to be was one where the golf course is kind 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:42.319 of the the centerpiece of a new town and it 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:46.799 being a different type of real estate play and you know, 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:50.600 your traditional real estate course but more along the lines 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:53.080 of something you'd see in Scotland like Saint Andrews or 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:55.960 North Barrack or you know. One course that reminds me 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.520 of this in the US is ach and Golf Club, 0:46:58.760 --> 0:47:02.000 where it's just steps from downtown and part of the 0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:03.279 town effectively. 0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:10.800 Yes, yeah, and you know, you know, before the housing 0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:13.080 crash in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. 0:47:13.760 --> 0:47:16.680 We were we were starting to do planning on a 0:47:16.719 --> 0:47:20.160 couple three residential courses that never came to pass. But 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:22.560 I remember talking with all the land plant you know, 0:47:22.600 --> 0:47:25.520 the land planner guys that do the master plans for 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:29.799 these big communities, were starting to say that that that 0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:34.960 model that they'd used forever of like fairway with houses 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:38.160 on either side, or even two fairways with houses so 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:41.400 just one side of them. You know, that just wasn't 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:44.279 appealing to people anymore, and it wasn't selling like it 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:48.399 always had. You know that people wanted to live near 0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:51.920 the golf course, but they didn't actually want the mowers 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:54.640 starting up at six thirty in the morning in their backyard. 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.040 So they were starting to come around to the idea, 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:01.600 you know, let's just do these over here and there 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:03.839 will be a few homes along the outside of it, 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.560 like there are on like most of the famous courses 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:10.560 you could name. But it's not going to be like 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:15.240 efficiently planned to get two hundred and forty golf frontage 0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:19.440 lots for any team hole golf course. That's a terrible experience, 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:21.640 you know, when you when you try to build something 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:26.759 like that, you're basically planning the housing development to be 0:48:26.960 --> 0:48:30.120 as efficient as possible. And you know, so if you're 0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:33.440 if you're six hundred feet from the property line, now 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:36.000 it's time for a golf hole, no matter what the 0:48:36.040 --> 0:48:39.719 topography is there, you know. And no, you can't move 0:48:39.760 --> 0:48:42.600 that hall over one hundred feet to where the topography 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:45.160 is interesting, because then we won't have room for the 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:47.600 road and the lot on either side of the road, 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:52.520 which is efficient. So you know, I've always stayed away 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:54.759 from that model. It's like, I don't I don't really 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:57.319 ever want to build a golf course like that. I've 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:02.600 only built really one where the where the development really 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:07.160 pushes into the golf too much. That was Riverfront in Virginia, 0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.480 one of my early courses. And you know, I like 0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:16.040 the golf course, it's just the development crowded it a lot. 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:18.440 And that's the thing. Is like with a golf course 0:49:18.520 --> 0:49:21.319 like that, if if money ever gets tight, they might 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:24.279 try and add a couple lots and encroach and you 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:28.359 can effectively ruin holes. So what you're saying with this 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.600 type of development, the way I've kind of got an 0:49:30.680 --> 0:49:34.000 envisioned in my head is that kind of the magic 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:37.040 of these town courses if we want to just use 0:49:37.080 --> 0:49:39.839 them like a that as a as a as a 0:49:39.840 --> 0:49:45.759 topic is like the retail slash congregating area is intertwined 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:48.799 with the golf course where you know, if you could 0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:52.800 think about like a modern retail area, maybe the golf 0:49:52.840 --> 0:49:54.680 course is at like the end of the block. 0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:59.200 Yes, and and you know, and the you know, just 0:49:59.239 --> 0:50:03.720 like North Berrah or Saint Andrew's, the well Saint Andrews. 0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:08.360 The real estate part only comes down the eighteenth hole basically, 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:14.080 but North Barrick it goes out to the fifth hole basically, 0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:16.440 and you know, it sort of scales down as it 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.160 gets away from town. You've got bigger things and then 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.000 you know, you've got big buildings in town and hotels, 0:50:23.040 --> 0:50:27.600 and then you've got more apartment building type size and 0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:30.239 then some single family things as you get further out. 0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:33.359 But it's but it's also not surrounding the golf course. 0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:35.319 It's only on the one side, and you're you know, 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:38.120 the whole golf courses or the whole all of those 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:40.880 things that are looking across golf holes to the water 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:45.000 m so you're not you know, you're not looking straight 0:50:45.040 --> 0:50:48.759 across at another building all the time. That's a big 0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:51.440 part of it. But I just you know, just the 0:50:51.480 --> 0:50:54.360 scale of it too, the fact that you can you know, 0:50:54.440 --> 0:50:57.160 in St. Andrews, you just go out your apartment with 0:50:57.200 --> 0:50:59.120 your golf bag over the shoulder and walk down to 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:01.440 the golf course and that's what you know. There have 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.560 been a lot of new towns designed that way, designed 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:08.719 around walking. They just don't integrate golf into it at all. 0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:13.600 It's always it's always way over there, and so you 0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:17.839 got to drive to it, and then usually it's you know, 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:20.640 it's because it's way over there. They put housing all 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:23.359 around it too. In the more introduced in the more 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:25.760 modern American model of how. 0:51:25.600 --> 0:51:28.480 To do things well, when you think about like the 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:32.080 community aspect and everybody, I don't want to use this 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:35.200 we're going to say about getting people into the gay 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:37.960 where areca use the term grow the game, But like 0:51:38.000 --> 0:51:40.920 when you think about introducing people to the game of golf, 0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:46.960 like having golf be within sight is going to make 0:51:47.000 --> 0:51:50.520 it so much more likely that somebody's going to decide 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:54.080 one day that they want to go try it, yes. 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:57.640 Or having the way to go to the way to 0:51:57.760 --> 0:52:01.800 walk to school or town is footpath that crass crosses 0:52:01.840 --> 0:52:04.480 over the golf course. You'll see that a lot in Scotland. 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.400 You'll see a lot in places like Argentina that you 0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:11.200 wouldn't expect that to be the case, but you see 0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:14.120 almost everywhere, but in America. Because in America there's some 0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:16.560 lawyer going, oh no, no, no, we can't have somebody walking 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:18.880 through there. They might get hit and everybody gets sued. 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:21.880 It could to be a little bit with the founding 0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:24.160 of golf and how it found it, how it was 0:52:24.200 --> 0:52:28.439 started in America is such an exclusionary pursuit in a way, 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:32.080 because you know, Cevia McDonald wasn't really a man of 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:32.760 the people. 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:36.640 Yeah, So, I mean the closest I've ever got to 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:38.759 doing something like this when I was when I was 0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:41.080 working on that course in China that we finished and 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:45.560 never opened. The client was also looking at another site 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:51.200 on the basically the north tip of Hainan Island to 0:52:51.360 --> 0:52:54.919 do like a real like a town, a full new 0:52:55.000 --> 0:52:57.600 town over time. It was a huge piece of ground 0:52:57.600 --> 0:53:00.600 to develop, and so we talked through a lot of 0:53:00.640 --> 0:53:05.320 these concepts for that place, you know, ten ten years ago, 0:53:05.800 --> 0:53:09.000 and that's that's one of the reasons I've always had 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:10.680 in the back of my mind, I'm going to try 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:14.080 to do this somewhere. But he made the interesting point. 0:53:14.760 --> 0:53:17.719 He said to him the difference between the UK and 0:53:18.760 --> 0:53:23.400 America was in America, the edge of the golf course 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:30.160 is somebody's backyard, and in Scotland it's the street. You know, 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.440 there may be development across the street looking at the 0:53:33.480 --> 0:53:37.719 golf course, but there's no building between the street and 0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:38.440 the golf course. 0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:42.840 You would think that now, given like we're seeing a 0:53:42.840 --> 0:53:48.040 lot of population shifts and new development, that you know, 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:52.680 maybe this is is quite prescient given the time we're 0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:55.000 talking about this, But this would be the time for 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:57.840 somebody to try it because we have all we have 0:53:58.000 --> 0:54:02.319 effectively like towns just being in different different areas as 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.000 parts of the country that are really popular places for 0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:08.840 people to move where it would make sense to try. 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:13.120 This would be a really interesting and differentiated way to 0:54:13.200 --> 0:54:16.839 do residential development in a time where like a lot 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:18.920 of people kind of do the same playbook. 0:54:20.160 --> 0:54:24.640 Yes, and especially since you know, I think it's still 0:54:24.640 --> 0:54:27.600 true what those landplanners were telling me twelve years ago 0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:32.120 that that old model isn't that appealing to people anymore, 0:54:33.800 --> 0:54:36.279 you know, And I think it's even less appealing now 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:41.040 because what's happened, you know, those developments that failed, those 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:45.440 those golf courses right in your backyard that aren't golf 0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:50.000 courses anymore, and nobody maintains every day or a real problem. 0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:53.000 So I don't think people are that anxious to sign 0:54:53.080 --> 0:54:56.279 up for that. I think they want something that's you know, 0:54:56.320 --> 0:55:00.719 the golf course is more part of the town experience. 0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:04.200 Then it's on them as a hone of homeowner to support. 0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:09.040 Yeah, it's almost like formulaic. It became formulaic. And that's 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:11.600 what everybody tries to do in business, is like, we 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:14.400 can create efficiency when we have a clear formula of 0:55:14.400 --> 0:55:17.359 how we do our business. But what we see with 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:20.000 like a lot of these new say let's just take 0:55:20.040 --> 0:55:22.239 the Kaisers for example. One of the things that they 0:55:22.280 --> 0:55:24.880 do well is sure they have some formulas, you know, 0:55:25.320 --> 0:55:27.400 but one of the things they do well is creating 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:30.440 an identity at each of their places. And the identity 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:33.760 abandon and the identity at Sand Valley are drastically different, 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.160 you know, And I think that's the you know, the 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:39.200 essence of creating a sense of place is the most 0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:41.760 important part, and that's what you know, doing a golf 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:45.520 course with with that's not a traditional residential. I just 0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:48.520 I've actually more I think about this idea, the more 0:55:48.719 --> 0:55:50.799 and more captivated I am about it. 0:55:51.440 --> 0:55:53.440 Well, hopefully you've got a couple of listeners that are 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:55.120 in that part of the business who agree. 0:55:57.280 --> 0:56:00.680 So what are your other ideas that you shared with me? 0:56:00.920 --> 0:56:05.200 Was the idea of an old designing course that looks old. 0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:09.640 It looks like a course of like two hundred years ago. 0:56:10.160 --> 0:56:12.520 Yeah, and believe it or not, we got this idea 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:18.880 in China. We were I looked after after golf development 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.319 China shut down. I had one call from over there 0:56:23.000 --> 0:56:28.000 from there's a there's a golf course in northern like 0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:35.080 northeastern China. It's on the coast called Tiger Beach Golf Links. 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:37.480 You know, he's he's the only guy to try to 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:42.799 build a links course in China. You know, with fair 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:45.080 to middling results. It's not bad. It kind of gets 0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:47.839 the spirit of it right. The detailing is not that great. 0:56:49.320 --> 0:56:53.759 But the developer, you know, he spent he'd been to 0:56:53.920 --> 0:56:57.239 Scotland several times and he started going back there on 0:56:57.280 --> 0:57:01.280 a regular basis. He formed some like like inner club 0:57:01.320 --> 0:57:07.080 thing with Carnoustie of all places. But you know, he 0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:10.160 was He was also an art an art collector kind 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:12.840 of guy, and he loves some of those old pictures 0:57:12.840 --> 0:57:16.440 and paintings of golf in the early days. So he 0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:18.720 wanted to add nine holes to his golf course. And 0:57:18.760 --> 0:57:21.040 he you know, one of the things he mentioned is 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.760 a possibility was, you know, what if we tried to 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:27.400 do a golf course that looked two hundred years old, 0:57:28.080 --> 0:57:30.360 you know, not one hundred years old like all the 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:35.200 Golden Age courses, but before that, like those earliest pictures 0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:39.400 you see of golf where the hazards are really kind 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:41.760 of broken down and kind of just there's a few 0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:44.880 boards hold them up in places, and there's a little 0:57:45.000 --> 0:57:49.160 like footbridge to get across a sandy bunker in one place. 0:57:49.720 --> 0:57:52.720 And then you know, other than that, there's almost no 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:56.040 definition because back then they weren't really they weren't mowing 0:57:56.080 --> 0:57:59.080 the golf. They didn't have mowers, they had sheet so 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:03.080 you know, the the edges were not formalized at all. 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:05.000 It took me a long time, you know. There was 0:58:05.040 --> 0:58:09.320 a quote in Mackenzie's book about how at the great 0:58:09.360 --> 0:58:13.400 schools of golf, and he mentioned Saint Andrew's and Hoylake, 0:58:14.360 --> 0:58:19.160 that there was no defined line between the fairway and 0:58:19.240 --> 0:58:23.160 the rough, and I spent like years trying to think about, like, 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:26.120 how is that possible? You know, you got to decide 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:30.320 where you stop, you know, you know, it's not just natural. 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:32.920 And it took me a long time to think, No, 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.400 that was the sheep were making the call back in the. 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:39.160 Day, and so thinking about that. One of the way. 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:41.440 One of the reasons a lot of these, you know, 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:45.080 the early golf courses in the UK might have worked 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:48.880 so well was because the holes became defined by where 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:52.720 animals could walk. You know, people couldn't go over those 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:55.360 extreme hills because there was no mowers that could go 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:58.960 over that wanted to go over them. Right, It almost 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:01.840 kept them the the sheep kept them away from doing 0:59:01.880 --> 0:59:02.560 something dumb. 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:05.720 Yeah, And some of it, you know, I mean you 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:10.000 tend not to. You know, most links courses they're not 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:13.840 in the biggest dunes right next to the coast, with 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:17.600 a handful of exceptions, they're set back a little bit 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:21.720 where the dunes are older and the soil is a 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:25.960 little more fertile, so grass grows easily. You know, on 0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:28.760 the big dunes, all you've got is like merrim grass 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:31.240 kind of holding the sand down, but the sand is 0:59:31.280 --> 0:59:34.040 still actively blown around and those dunes are getting bigger, 0:59:34.320 --> 0:59:37.920 so they you know, they they even if they could 0:59:37.920 --> 0:59:41.600 have grasped up over those things, they're smart enough not 0:59:41.800 --> 0:59:44.520 to do that because it's still like an environment where 0:59:44.560 --> 0:59:47.920 things are moving around. You know, Let's just build the 0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:50.480 golf course over here where it kind of takes care 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:51.120 of itself. 0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:55.920 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think having a course like 0:59:55.960 --> 1:00:00.720 this built in America, possibly, if it could win some awards, 1:00:00.760 --> 1:00:02.600 it would probably would do the country a lot of 1:00:02.600 --> 1:00:05.640 good when it comes to like, you know, what's what's 1:00:05.720 --> 1:00:11.400 considered sought after maintenance practices, because you know, after this 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:15.400 year with trips in the last few years, you go 1:00:15.480 --> 1:00:18.560 to these some of these clubs in the Northeast and 1:00:18.600 --> 1:00:21.000 you just, I just can't believe the speeds of the greens, 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:24.560 and they talk about softening great greens rather than like 1:00:24.640 --> 1:00:27.360 the maintenance standards. And I think a lot of it 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:29.880 has to do with like the tools, the modern tools 1:00:29.880 --> 1:00:32.480 that have become so good and the ability to do it. 1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:34.760 But it seems like it's jumped the shark a little 1:00:34.760 --> 1:00:38.080 bit where we're talking about softening greens as opposed to 1:00:38.640 --> 1:00:42.880 you know, just slowing down the greens. 1:00:41.760 --> 1:00:44.920 Right, and that's always been a problem and it just 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:47.400 continues to be a problem. Yeah. I mean, I haven't 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:51.400 been back to some of these places that have done 1:00:51.400 --> 1:00:55.120 the fifteen million dollar renovations in the last couple of years, 1:00:55.520 --> 1:01:00.000 But I wonder if part of the reason for all 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:03.240 all that big, huge thing they're doing is to take 1:01:03.280 --> 1:01:06.080 the focus off the fact that they're also softening the greens. 1:01:06.480 --> 1:01:08.720 If they were only softening the greens, you'd be talking 1:01:08.760 --> 1:01:11.360 about it, But since they just spent fifteen million dollars 1:01:11.360 --> 1:01:22.280 rebuilding the whole golf course, you didn't even notice. 1:01:25.120 --> 1:01:30.000 Today's podcast was edited by the wonderful Megax. Thank you, beg, 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:33.000 and also a big thanks to Tom for coming on. 1:01:33.720 --> 1:01:36.680 As a reminder, if you guys are looking to support 1:01:37.160 --> 1:01:40.720 the Fried Egg and upgrade your wardrobe, go check out 1:01:40.720 --> 1:01:44.640 our pro shop proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot com. We've 1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:45.400 got a bunch of stuff. 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:45.640 O there. 1:01:45.640 --> 1:01:50.440 We've got T shirts, hoodies, golf shirts, all sorts of stuff, 1:01:50.480 --> 1:01:54.200 tons of hats. Go there and get some new swag. 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:58.320 Start twenty twenty two off right, and thank you again 1:01:58.360 --> 1:02:01.320 for listening. We will be back early next week.