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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy westerveldt our series with

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Speaker 1: Arthur has come to a close. I'm going to miss

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Speaker 1: Darna nor co hosting with me. But we do have

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Speaker 1: one more thing to bring you today, and that is

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Speaker 1: the complete interview that we did with Katie Worth. Her

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Speaker 1: book mis Education, about the sorry state of climate education

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Speaker 1: in US schools, is coming out November sixteenth, so in

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Speaker 1: just a little over a week. If you're interested in

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Speaker 1: getting that book, we'll stick a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Katie had a bunch of really interesting things to share

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Speaker 1: from her research, which we were able to include in

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Speaker 1: a couple of episodes, but we thought that you might

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Speaker 1: want to hear the whole interview that's coming up right

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Speaker 1: after this quick break.

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Speaker 2: So I was thinking it'd be good to have you

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Speaker 2: start by just talking a little bit about what got

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Speaker 2: you interested in this particular subject in the first place.

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Speaker 3: So I got interested. Let's see, a few years ago,

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Speaker 3: my colleague Michelle Meiser and I went to the Marshall

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Speaker 3: Islands because we were doing a story about climate change

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Speaker 3: and children, and we wanted to go somewhere where the

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Speaker 3: effects were already very visible because we were doing a

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Speaker 3: film we wanted to capture it, and so while we

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Speaker 3: were there, we talked to all these kids and we

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Speaker 3: were really struck by how much they knew about climate change,

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Speaker 3: Like they were more conversant in the causes and effects

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Speaker 3: of climate change than like most adults that I know,

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Speaker 3: I know little kids. So the deal with the Marshall

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Speaker 3: Islands is that they can move Marshal Ease. Folks can

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Speaker 3: move to the US without a visa because we have

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Speaker 3: a military base on their island as part of the

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Speaker 3: negotiated agreement. So there's a very large Marshal Lease community

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Speaker 3: in Arkansas. Of all, one of the kids that we

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Speaker 3: were talking to in the Marshall Islands his family was

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Speaker 3: considering moving to the States, and so the question came up, well, okay,

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Speaker 3: well what would he learn if he moved to the

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Speaker 3: States about climate change? What are American kids learning about

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Speaker 3: climate change? So that was sort of an open question,

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Speaker 3: and there'd been some reporting on it, but not a

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Speaker 3: great deal. And so that's kind of how I started

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Speaker 3: digging into the question.

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Speaker 4: That's so interesting. Would love to have you walk through

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Speaker 4: this example of the school that you visited in Arkansas

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Speaker 4: when there was surprisingly an energy company person there.

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Speaker 3: We went to Springdale, Arkansas to visited some schools there

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Speaker 3: because of this connection to the Marshall Islands, because there's

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Speaker 3: such a large Marshal leased community in Springdale. And so

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Speaker 3: I went and visited a few different schools and one

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Speaker 3: of them was a middle school, and I started talking

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Speaker 3: to the science teachers and in Walks this lobbyist for

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Speaker 3: the oil and gas industry, and she is a representative

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Speaker 3: actually of Arkansas Independent Producers and Royalty Owners, which is

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Speaker 3: Arkansas's oil industry organization basically, and she was there to

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Speaker 3: talk to the seventh grade and she had a whole

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Speaker 3: PowerPoint presentation and her entire job was to go school

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Speaker 3: to school and give a presentation about the fossil fuel

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Speaker 3: industry to middle schoolers. Mostly occasionally she would visit like

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Speaker 3: an elementary school or a high school, but spoke to

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Speaker 3: a lot of fifth graders and seventh graders.

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Speaker 2: Wow, okay, And there's this one line that you have

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Speaker 2: in the book that this person was talking about to

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Speaker 2: where she says, so when you consider energy, you have

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Speaker 2: some real thinking to do. And then she talks about

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Speaker 2: like you don't want to stop building homes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So she was there. I mean, a lot of

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Speaker 3: what she was talking about was kind of legitimate information,

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Speaker 3: like you know, how oil is taken from the ground

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Speaker 3: and the machinery that does that, and kind of the

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Speaker 3: geology of it all. But then she got into talking

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Speaker 3: about carbon emissions, and she didn't really explain what carbon

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Speaker 3: I mimisas were, she didn't explain why they might be

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Speaker 3: a problem. She said that it would be a problem,

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Speaker 3: but she didn't explain anything about global warming or climate change,

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Speaker 3: but instead immediately launched into this list of all the

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Speaker 3: problems that exist with all of the different fuels, so

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Speaker 3: like solar, if it's cloudy, you don't get energy, and

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Speaker 3: wind mills kill birds and so on, And then she

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Speaker 3: talks about how important fossil fuels are to the world

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Speaker 3: and how they've lifted people out of poverty and if

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Speaker 3: we kind of stop using fossil fuels, we'll leave a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of people in poverty, according to her, which

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Speaker 3: is not supported by evidence, but you know, that was

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Speaker 3: the narrative that she was telling, and she had this line,

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Speaker 3: so she was talking about how when you're considering energy,

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Speaker 3: you have to do some thinking about your value. She says,

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Speaker 3: first of all, you need to decide your standard of value.

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Speaker 3: You need to decide is human life the most important?

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Speaker 3: Humans getting healthier, wealthier, happier, living longer, or is pristine

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Speaker 3: nature more important? Do you want to quit building new houses,

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Speaker 3: stop getting stuff out of the ground. Do we want

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Speaker 3: to leave it exactly as it is? Because that would

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Speaker 3: be difficult. Thankfully we don't have to choose in this country.

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Speaker 3: We are working in a happy medium at this point.

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Speaker 4: So wow, it's such a happy medium.

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Speaker 2: I actually later on today have to evacuate because of

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Speaker 2: the wildfires around me.

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Speaker 4: Happy medium to hear that it's fine.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear just you know what you thought

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Speaker 2: when you heard this, and whether any like whether that

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Speaker 2: class's teacher or any of the kids like, had any

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Speaker 2: kind of pushback to what she was saying.

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Speaker 3: None of the kids asked any questions. The only question

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Speaker 3: I remember them asking was how much it might be

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Speaker 3: able to make if they worked for the industry, like

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Speaker 3: worked for the oil and gas industry, And she said

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Speaker 3: it might be one hundred thousand dollars, and they were

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Speaker 3: just like whoa. And that you know, they didn't ask

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Speaker 3: any questions. She also, you know that part wasn't set

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Speaker 3: up for questions. She just kind of railed through this

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Speaker 3: like do we want Christine nature? Do we want humans

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Speaker 3: to prosper? Which one would you choose? Thankfully we don't

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Speaker 3: have to choose. Let's move on, you know. So there

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Speaker 3: was like this this kind of major question raise and

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Speaker 3: then resolved immediately, and then she moved on and the

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Speaker 3: teacher was very deferential to her, So of course the

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Speaker 3: students were too.

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Speaker 4: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: So actually I wanted to ask you about whether you,

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Speaker 2: in the course of reporting this book, got a sense

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Speaker 2: of how US schools became so kind of susceptible to

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Speaker 2: industry influence.

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Speaker 3: I remember talking to one person who was like, look,

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Speaker 3: I barely have three minutes in the day to pee.

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Speaker 3: So if somebody sends me this lesson plan and it's

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Speaker 3: like really well produced and looks very professional, I might

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Speaker 3: use it, you know, and it's relevant to my students,

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Speaker 3: you know, like it's not really on teachers, you know,

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Speaker 3: it shouldn't necessarily be on teachers to make sure, you know,

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Speaker 3: to like I mean, well maybe it should, obviously they

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Speaker 3: should check their sources and so on, but like, these

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Speaker 3: are things that are meant to look professional, and they

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Speaker 3: usually do some of them are like outright climate denial,

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Speaker 3: but then there's a lot of materials that are much subtler,

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Speaker 3: and you wouldn't necessarily catch if you weren't like really

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Speaker 3: looking for it. So, for example, there's an organization called

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Speaker 3: the National Energy Education Development Project the NEED, and they

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Speaker 3: have their whole purpose is to create educational materials about energy,

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Speaker 3: which seems like a good thing, you know, and they

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Speaker 3: talk about energy conservation, They talk about every all kinds

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Speaker 3: of energy, including some renewables, which like in theory, sounds

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Speaker 3: like a good thing. But they are sponsored by all

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Speaker 3: of these energy companies and some of them are you know,

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Speaker 3: wind or solar companies, but most of them are fossil

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Speaker 3: fuel companies, and that's how they get the vast majority

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Speaker 3: of their budget. And so they told me that they

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Speaker 3: aren't influenced by their sponsors, But then if you actually

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Speaker 3: look at the materials they produce, it's really industry friendly

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Speaker 3: and so like, for example, they have these packets of

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Speaker 3: activities and lessons for different age groups about all the

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Speaker 3: different energy sources, and there's like fourteen pages of information

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Speaker 3: and activities about petroleum. Nowhere in those materials is carbon

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Speaker 3: dioxide mentioned. Climate change isn't mentioned, and the only ron

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Speaker 3: mental impacts They do talk about environmental impact, but what

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Speaker 3: they talk about is water pollution or air pollution. And

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Speaker 3: then they say, yeah, then here here, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: quote this directly, so that there's a paragraph about all

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Speaker 3: the great things that petroleum products do for us, but

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Speaker 3: that there's a trade off because there can be you know,

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Speaker 3: some oil or water pollution. And then there's a paragraph

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Speaker 3: that reads, the petroleum industry works hard to protect the environment.

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Speaker 3: Gasoline and diesel fuel have been changed to burn cleaner,

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Speaker 3: and oil companies work to make sure that they drill

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Speaker 3: and transport oil as safely as possible. Wow, So what's

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Speaker 3: that saying is like, don't worry about it because the

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Speaker 3: petroleum industry cares so much about it and they're working

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Speaker 3: really hard to protect the environment, and so everything's fine.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's this problem, but they're.

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Speaker 3: Taking care of it. And basically every non renewable resource

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Speaker 3: discussed in these materials presents it that way, and you know,

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Speaker 3: like everything's taken care of. Yes, there's problems, you might

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Speaker 3: have heard about them, but don't worry. It's all it's

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Speaker 3: all being taken care of. And that has this effect

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Speaker 3: of leaving children with the feeling like it almost inoculates them,

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Speaker 3: so when when they hear about an oil spill, they're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I learned about that, but like, fortunately there's ways to

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Speaker 3: take care of it, and like there's no discussion of regulation,

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Speaker 3: there's no discussion of climate change. It's just like, here

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Speaker 3: is this product that does so many things for us,

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Speaker 3: and fortunately the people who make it are really concerned

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Speaker 3: about doing it in a way that's safe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So me and Darna have been focusing on kind

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Speaker 2: of on the social science side, not necessarily how it

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Speaker 2: influences social science curricula, although we have found some of

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Speaker 2: them too, but the way that like the industry's materials

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Speaker 2: and sort of influence and education has served to kind

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Speaker 2: of narrow the spectrum of possible solutions that were even

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Speaker 2: sort of allowed to consider.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious if you find that to hold up in

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Speaker 2: what you've seen too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the end goal of

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Speaker 3: all of this, is to stemy action on climate change,

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Speaker 3: so that the trillions of dollars worth of fossil fuels

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Speaker 3: that are underground can be removed before the regulation happens

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Speaker 3: and sold and turned into profit right, So that's their goal,

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Speaker 3: and it was laid out in that victory memo. They

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Speaker 3: said that the goal was to stop the Kyoto Protocol

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Speaker 3: from being implemented and to ward off future efforts like Kyoto.

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Speaker 3: And you know they've.

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Speaker 4: Actually accomplished yeah, victory indeed. Yes.

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Speaker 3: And what we found, what I found in my recording

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Speaker 3: was that, you know, they've managed to turn climate change

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Speaker 3: into a political issue in science classes and in schools,

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Speaker 3: and like, you know, ideally we would like to think

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Speaker 3: of science as you know, it's this scientific process, it's unimpeachable,

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Speaker 3: and that you're going to go to school and you're

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Speaker 3: going to learn something about how the world works and

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Speaker 3: not as this political thing. But this particular issue is

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Speaker 3: very political, and it shows up in this political way

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Speaker 3: all over the place in schools. So an academic standard

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Speaker 3: is the state's expectation of what a student will learn

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Speaker 3: in each class. So like a history standard might say that,

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Speaker 3: like in tenth grade you learn about the Great Depression

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Speaker 3: and the New Deal or whatever. They have their science

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Speaker 3: standards as well, and in some science standards they talk

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Speaker 3: a great deal about climate change, but in other states

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Speaker 3: it's absent totally. You know, kids don't learn anything about

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Speaker 3: climate change in school, and you know, and one would

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Speaker 3: say that climate change is, you know, the defining issue

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Speaker 3: of this century, but in thirty States climate change doesn't

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Speaker 3: show up in any civics class standards.

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Speaker 2: What's crazy about that to me though, too, is that

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Speaker 2: this year, and unfortunately is not coming out until March

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two or something, is the first time that

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Speaker 2: they're having social scientists and political scientists do a working

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Speaker 2: group of political scientists and social scientists to do a

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Speaker 2: report on like that aspect of acting on climate for

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Speaker 2: the IECC. And I'm just like, how how is it

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Speaker 2: like twenty twenty one and we're just now being like, oh, actually,

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Speaker 2: there's this whole other comonent.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's like it does show up in science class,

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Speaker 3: but you know, ultimately, you don't necessarily have to understand

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Speaker 3: the exact mechanism of climate change to understand that it's

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Speaker 3: a big problem that we need to solve and that

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Speaker 3: we need to prepare for right and that it's going

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Speaker 3: to define our century. So you know, it should show up.

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Speaker 3: It should show up in classes from kindergarten to through

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Speaker 3: college in obviously and developmentally appropriate ways and you know,

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Speaker 3: kids should be asked to think about what action, if any,

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Speaker 3: is appropriate and kind of what solutions might exist, which

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Speaker 3: is not a science question so much as it is

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Speaker 3: a social science question.

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Speaker 4: Right, right, right.

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Speaker 2: What was like the most surprising thing that you found

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Speaker 2: in researching the book or the thing that's really stuck

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 3: Well, it surprised me to learn that as many as

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Speaker 3: as a third of science teachers tell students the climate

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Speaker 3: change is likely natural, and that about a quarter of

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Speaker 3: children leave school thinking that it might be natural and

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Speaker 3: basically not believing that climate change is happening, even as

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Speaker 3: they're emerging into a world where it is happening in

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Speaker 3: their communities often. And you know that that didn't happen accidentally.

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Speaker 3: You know that wasn't just that wasn't just caused by

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Speaker 3: kind of chance or accident. It was caused by this

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Speaker 3: really intentional campaign that was at times in a certain way,

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Speaker 3: is really targeted at children. And you know, of course,

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Speaker 3: like the adult world affects children, but then there's almost

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Speaker 3: this other level where if you're trying to spread disinformation

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Speaker 3: to adults and it spread and it kind of trickles

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Speaker 3: down to children.

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Speaker 1: That's.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of to be expected, but that there was

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Speaker 3: this actual people thinking how can we get children on.

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Speaker 2: Our side, how can we get.

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Speaker 3: This disinformation into the hands of children and into the

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Speaker 3: minds of children, And then they succeeded.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Thanks for listening. We are

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Speaker 1: working on bringing you the next couple of segments in

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Speaker 1: our Gas season season six, The Bridge to Nowhere. We'll

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Speaker 1: be bringing you those over the next few months, along

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Speaker 1: with some additional bonus episodes along the way. Make sure

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Speaker 1: you're subscribed so you don't miss any of it. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll see you next time.