Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest.
Speaker 1: His name is Greg Fleming, and he is currently the
Speaker 1: CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management, formally the family office of
Speaker 1: the famous Rockefeller family fortune. Uh. Gregg is one of
Speaker 1: these people that a lot of folks who are not
Speaker 1: in the industry may not know his name, but he's
Speaker 1: been instrumental in shaping a really shaping Wall Street. He's
Speaker 1: he's done a number of, you know, incredible deals that uh,
Speaker 1: starting out with UM black Rock and the purchase of
Speaker 1: Merrill Lynch's wealth management sides or asset management side. UH.
Speaker 1: That was really quite a fascinating deal that allowed what
Speaker 1: was essentially in house Merrill Lynch assets to be sold
Speaker 1: to anybody who wanted to buy them. You can imagine
Speaker 1: prior to that transaction why people at other firms, let's
Speaker 1: say UBS or Morgan Stanley, wouldn't want to buy a
Speaker 1: Merrill Lynch product. Once it went to an outside party
Speaker 1: like black Rock, that changed the dynamic and eventually led
Speaker 1: to black Rock becoming an eight trillion dollar asset manager. UH.
Speaker 1: He also was instrumental in the sale of Merrill Lynch
Speaker 1: itself to Bank America in the midst of the financial crisis,
Speaker 1: and he has been an advisor on a number of
Speaker 1: other deals um too numerous to mension, the most recently
Speaker 1: the sale of UM the Miami Marlins to a group
Speaker 1: led by Derek Jeter, who he's been working with and
Speaker 1: has known both personally and professionally for decades. Uh. This
Speaker 1: is really a fascinating conversation with someone who is as
Speaker 1: knowledgeable of the business of estment banking and wealth management
Speaker 1: and financial planning as really anybody in the world. So,
Speaker 1: with no further ado, my conversation with Rockefeller Capital Managements,
Speaker 1: Greg Fleming. This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Greg Fleming.
Speaker 1: He is the founding CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management, which
Speaker 1: essentially is a re envisioning of the Rockefeller family office
Speaker 1: that has been around for quite a long time. He
Speaker 1: comes to us from both senior positions in Merrill Lynch
Speaker 1: and Morgan Stanley, where he worked as an acclaimed investment banker.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you very much, Barry. It's great
Speaker 1: to be here. So I mentioned you you began your
Speaker 1: career as an investment banker. I know you were at
Speaker 1: Merrill Lynch in the ninety nineties. How do you transition
Speaker 1: from consulting with one set of clients to finance with
Speaker 1: a somewhat different set of clients. In some ways, it
Speaker 1: was It was a pretty seamless transition in the sense
Speaker 1: that I was providing strategic and management advice to multiple
Speaker 1: clients at Booze Allen Hamilton's, and then I was also
Speaker 1: providing strategic, tactical and financial advice to clients as an
Speaker 1: investment banker. So I do think that that training helped
Speaker 1: me to position myself more quickly to be able to
Speaker 1: counsel senior executives and CEOs on whether I would do
Speaker 1: a deal of fire with them or were we recommending
Speaker 1: something and helping them think through what are the next
Speaker 1: steps in their businesses. So when I left, I left
Speaker 1: boz Allen in late and joined Merrill Lynch, and frankly,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I left Barry was because I
Speaker 1: wanted to get closer to the follow up the execution,
Speaker 1: and I found, uh, you know, eventually I went from
Speaker 1: being an investment banker and an advisor there to leading businesses,
Speaker 1: which I like the most, and I'll get to that.
Speaker 1: But when I when I went to UH Who's Allen,
Speaker 1: When I went to Marri Lynch from Who's Allen, UH,
Speaker 1: my thought was to get into a company and get
Speaker 1: closer to being able to actually UH see through the
Speaker 1: vision that you work with clients on as a management consultant.
Speaker 1: So Merrill Lynch in UM in the early nineties was
Speaker 1: a tremendous place. UH. It was taking off as an
Speaker 1: institutional firm. It had been a retail focus firm for
Speaker 1: decades really from its founding early in the twentieth century. UH.
Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties they had done a series of
Speaker 1: acquisitions that had positioned them well to build an institutional business.
Speaker 1: I found the culture to be meritocratic, performance based. If
Speaker 1: you did well, you could move quickly. I joined in
Speaker 1: late nine. I started more on the management side, UH
Speaker 1: within municipal finance, helping run that business, and then I
Speaker 1: moved to investment banking in the Financial Institutions group UH,
Speaker 1: and I started working directly with clients, particularly interestingly enough
Speaker 1: in the asset management space, where I really UH spent
Speaker 1: the first years of my career as an investment banker
Speaker 1: advising asset management companies on potential sales UH and UH
Speaker 1: public offerings including UH, we can get to this UH
Speaker 1: black Rock. Let's stay with Meryl before we move forward
Speaker 1: to black Rock Coasts. I want to talk about your transactions,
Speaker 1: especially some of the ones that really reshaped UM Wall
Speaker 1: Street in a bit. UM thees were a pretty wild
Speaker 1: go go time on Wall Street. What was the atmosphere
Speaker 1: like at Merrill Lynch did did people have a sense
Speaker 1: of how unique that decade was or did it just
Speaker 1: seem business as usual? You know, when you're in it,
Speaker 1: a decade like that are really now that you know,
Speaker 1: I've worked through multiple decades. When you're in it, you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily stand back and say, uh, this is uh
Speaker 1: unique in all the following ways, you have a sense
Speaker 1: of it. You might observe some of them. But as
Speaker 1: you said, it was a very positive environment for the
Speaker 1: American economy. UH. As you recall that, I think Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton was president from two thousand. By the time two
Speaker 1: thousand came, we had a balanced budget, We had tremendous
Speaker 1: growth in the in the country. Trade was growing all
Speaker 1: over the world, and new countries were starting to enter
Speaker 1: the the capitalist realm, including UH. You know, towards the
Speaker 1: end of that period, China started coming on the on
Speaker 1: the horizon. So it was, as you said, a very
Speaker 1: vibrant time in the United States and around the world
Speaker 1: from a economic standpoint. Maryland expanded into Europe. I bought
Speaker 1: a company called Smith new Court, expanded in Japan and
Speaker 1: Canada and in many different places. Uh. We continued to
Speaker 1: build out the investment banking business, and really UH started
Speaker 1: competing directly with the firms that had been successful in
Speaker 1: that farther back and longer, like Goldman, Zax and Morgan Stanley.
Speaker 1: So it was, as you say, with hindsight, a tremendous decade.
Speaker 1: And even in it, UH you had the sense that
Speaker 1: this was a robust time and mary Lynch was a
Speaker 1: place that that was on the move and going in
Speaker 1: a very positive direction. So you eventually become chief operating
Speaker 1: officer at Meryll, a title you held right in the
Speaker 1: middle of the Great financial crisis. That had to be madness.
Speaker 1: What was that experience like just a few short years
Speaker 1: after the go go nineties, oh, seven oh eight, must
Speaker 1: have just been insane. There was a very challenging time, Barrier.
Speaker 1: I have to say, uh, I've had great uh success
Speaker 1: and luck in my career and and uh ladder is
Speaker 1: important for everybody, um and uh in. And because of
Speaker 1: of working hard and doing well but getting opportunities, I
Speaker 1: moved quickly into different positions of increasing responsibility at Meryl
Speaker 1: and I was named co president and coaching operating officer
Speaker 1: in April of two thousand and seven. That turned out,
Speaker 1: with hindsight and pretty quickly actually to have been a
Speaker 1: challenging time to step into that because by the fall
Speaker 1: on the fixed income side of Mery Lynch there were
Speaker 1: significant challenges, as there were throughout the industry, particularly with
Speaker 1: subprime assets, so that the whole period turned into one
Speaker 1: of the most intense and stressful of my career, probably
Speaker 1: of many careers. I worked for Stan O'Neill leading up
Speaker 1: to the fall of oh seven, and then he was
Speaker 1: replaced with John Fain, who became my new boss. And
Speaker 1: John and I raised a lot of capital to help
Speaker 1: Marylynch deal with its balance sheet challenges, uh, literally turning
Speaker 1: the capital base of the company almost over. I think
Speaker 1: we raised north of billion in capital and a company
Speaker 1: that going into all of this had approximately thirty billion
Speaker 1: capital and we UH. We thought by the summer of
Speaker 1: oh eight we had worked the firm through it, but
Speaker 1: there were continuing challenges in the fall of o eight,
Speaker 1: so we ultimately sold the firm to Bank of America
Speaker 1: in a very stressful weekend UH in September of two
Speaker 1: thousand eight, memorable weekend. UH. And we closed that deal
Speaker 1: in early oh nine, and I left the firm and
Speaker 1: went on to other things. Lessons from that time for
Speaker 1: me and I have three children that are in their
Speaker 1: early twenties, and we talked about many different things, and
Speaker 1: we have a quote of the day on our text chain,
Speaker 1: and UM lots of advice across different topics. But the
Speaker 1: primary lesson from that time from my vantage point is that, UH,
Speaker 1: when you're in a position of a responsibility and authority
Speaker 1: UH and and things are happening around you, you need
Speaker 1: to step up. UH. There were times during that time
Speaker 1: because I had moved quickly in my career where uh,
Speaker 1: you know, seven or eight years earlier, I was a
Speaker 1: senior investment banker running the financial Institutions group at Mery Lynch,
Speaker 1: and now I was front and center on making decisions
Speaker 1: as to whether we would stay independent and could we
Speaker 1: get it sold and under what circumstances. Uh. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that I say, with hindsight and moving
Speaker 1: forward is somebody is going to be in that position,
Speaker 1: So don't spend any time wondering where everybody is. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know why the pressure is on your shoulders. It's
Speaker 1: there and you need to react to it, and you
Speaker 1: need to rise to that occasion and try to do
Speaker 1: the right thing by the many people that are depending
Speaker 1: upon you. And that is one of the major lessons
Speaker 1: I took away from that time. And fortunately we did
Speaker 1: at Merrill Lynch into a good spot and I think
Speaker 1: it's prospered under Bank of America. I think it could
Speaker 1: have been an amazing company if it stayed on a
Speaker 1: standalone basis, but that wasn't ultimately the result that was
Speaker 1: in the cards. My special guest today is Greg Fleming.
Speaker 1: He is the CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management. He has
Speaker 1: been really at the center of some pretty amazing deals
Speaker 1: that helped to reshape finance as we know it today.
Speaker 1: Let's let's discuss some of them, and we'll start with
Speaker 1: the sale of Merrill's money management business to black Rock.
Speaker 1: That was something like a nine billion dollar deal ultimately
Speaker 1: led to a number of aspects of black Rock, including
Speaker 1: I shares and and on and on down the road
Speaker 1: that allowed them to become one of the great powerhouses
Speaker 1: and finance. Tell us what was behind that deal? Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, Barry, I had a long history with black
Speaker 1: Rock at that point in time. In fact, it went
Speaker 1: all the way back to the mid nineties when I
Speaker 1: worked with them on on raising some closed and funds
Speaker 1: that they went to Marylynch's retail business to be part of.
Speaker 1: I got to know the leadership team, Larry Fink, the CEO,
Speaker 1: and some of the other senior executives there, Rob Compto,
Speaker 1: Ralph Flasstein. When we took a public Barry, the stock
Speaker 1: was that fourteen dollars a share and uh it's obviously
Speaker 1: uh many many uh years ago, and it's done tremendously
Speaker 1: over that time, and is uh wherever it is today
Speaker 1: six hundred dollars a share or more so, that transaction,
Speaker 1: uh cemented a relationship that I had already been building
Speaker 1: with them, and I stayed in close touch with them.
Speaker 1: I really was one of the strategic advisors that Larry
Speaker 1: and team relied upon, and that's what led to the
Speaker 1: Marylynch deal. UH we were thinking about what we were
Speaker 1: going to do with our asset manage of business. It
Speaker 1: was a very good business, primarily equity based and retail
Speaker 1: based in the US, and black Rock was looking for
Speaker 1: both of those things to fill out what was still
Speaker 1: at that time a primarily fixed income institutional manager. So
Speaker 1: we started h a negotiation and a dialogue on this one.
Speaker 1: I actually represented Merrill Lynch and and my boss at
Speaker 1: the time, Stan O'Neil, and Larry Fink had his financial advisor,
Speaker 1: who interestingly enough, was Gary Shedlin, who's now his CFO.
Speaker 1: And we put that deal together in two thousand and
Speaker 1: five and created the black Rock that really was positioned
Speaker 1: because it then had broad based product capabilities equity and
Speaker 1: fixed income, it had broad based retail access and distribution.
Speaker 1: We position black Rock to really go on the run.
Speaker 1: That has gone on since then. Obviously Larry and team
Speaker 1: has executed brilliantly. Mary Lynch took back a forty nine
Speaker 1: pcent ownership stake in black Rock. That was the part
Speaker 1: of the magic of the transaction. Larry continued to control
Speaker 1: the company, but he had a very big partner. I
Speaker 1: went on the board of black Rock UH and and
Speaker 1: stayed on the board until I left Merrill Lynch in
Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. So I do take pride
Speaker 1: in having helped black Rock at multiple key points along
Speaker 1: the way in this company becoming the amazing company with
Speaker 1: I think approximately eight trillion in assets under management in
Speaker 1: h truly astonishing you. Um, you mentioned previously the transaction
Speaker 1: that brought Merrill Lynch to Bank Bank of America. That
Speaker 1: was quite the abbreviated process, Is it true? That was
Speaker 1: essentially completed over a weekend? And and just to remind
Speaker 1: everybody that transaction took place, um in the full of
Speaker 1: oh eight, you had a I. G. And Lehman teetering
Speaker 1: on bankruptc. The world looked like it was going to hell.
Speaker 1: How did that transaction happen? And how did it happen
Speaker 1: so quickly? Well, it did take place over a weekend,
Speaker 1: and we announced it the Monday morning of that weekend
Speaker 1: was September fifteenth. I will never forget it, but we
Speaker 1: had Bank America had been interested in Meryl for some time,
Speaker 1: and I had had dialogue in UH in the months
Speaker 1: leading up to it with some of the senior executives
Speaker 1: at Bank America and with a lawyer who does not
Speaker 1: get enough credit for having put this transaction together. Your
Speaker 1: friend of mine named Ed Hurley, he at Wachtel Lipton.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like we talked to Bank America for
Speaker 1: the first time on on Friday and announced the deal
Speaker 1: on Monday. They had done a tremendous amount of work
Speaker 1: on Mery Lynch over the years as a prospective partner,
Speaker 1: and they were aware that circumstances might come to pass
Speaker 1: where we could potentially be interested in a transaction with
Speaker 1: Bank of America. So that backdrop, I think is important.
Speaker 1: But the reality is is that it did come together
Speaker 1: in the final analysis that quickly. On Saturday morning, September,
Speaker 1: very early in the morning, John Than and I had
Speaker 1: multiple conversations about him reaching out to Ken Lewis, the
Speaker 1: CEO of Bank of America, and saying we should talk
Speaker 1: this weekend. I was very focused on trying to get
Speaker 1: the transaction done on the weekend because I thought that
Speaker 1: Lehman had no partner that was on the on the grapevine,
Speaker 1: everybody was wondering what was going to happen to Lehman,
Speaker 1: and I believe if Lehman UH did file for Chapter eleven,
Speaker 1: as they did, on Sunday night that the markets on
Speaker 1: Monday would be a disaster and Mary Lynch would quickly
Speaker 1: come under pressure as the next smallest UH securities firm
Speaker 1: that was still in existence. So I knew this is
Speaker 1: one of the benefits of the training As an investment banker,
Speaker 1: I knew the value of a weekend, and I was
Speaker 1: pushing John Friday night and Saturday morning to UH initiate contact,
Speaker 1: and he ultimately did. And Kenna Lewis flew to New
Speaker 1: York on Saturday and had a meeting with Jonathan early
Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon, and they agreed on US allowing them to
Speaker 1: do diligence and starting a dialogue around a potential transaction.
Speaker 1: In that dialogue, I think John was thinking maybe a
Speaker 1: minority investment. Ken Lewis was clearly thinking he would buy
Speaker 1: the firm. Later that evening, we started due diligence in
Speaker 1: UH in an intensive way. UH. We were on one
Speaker 1: floor at Wachtel Lifton and Bank of America was on another.
Speaker 1: Chtell was the advisor, the legal advisor to Bank of
Speaker 1: America at this point in time, and on Sunday morning,
Speaker 1: a man named Greg Curle, who was the lead negotiator
Speaker 1: for and Lewis and I met very early I think
Speaker 1: it was seven am, to discuss the terms of of
Speaker 1: a transaction. I remember having gotten back to a hotel
Speaker 1: I was staying in a couple hours earlier and taking
Speaker 1: a shower. Nobody was sleeping we had slept in several days,
Speaker 1: and walking back to Wachtell Lipton, which is in Midtown,
Speaker 1: it was very quiet and thinking, if I didn't get
Speaker 1: this negotiation right. We have sixty five thousand employees, this
Speaker 1: firm has been around for almost ninety five years. Uh
Speaker 1: and a lot hung on what happened in the next
Speaker 1: twenty four hours, and I did feel the pressure of that.
Speaker 1: It was the will always be the most pressured moment
Speaker 1: of my career. I think when somebody will come into
Speaker 1: my office today or at any point since then and
Speaker 1: say we've got a big problem, I'll say that I'm
Speaker 1: sure we have an issue to deal with. But a
Speaker 1: big problem is being the president of a year old
Speaker 1: firm with a brand like Mary Lynch twenty four hours
Speaker 1: before a market may open and h and puts you
Speaker 1: in a very difficult position. And the stress was was
Speaker 1: frankly almost unbearable. I had colleagues on our team, thank
Speaker 1: to me, just get it sold at almost any price.
Speaker 1: I remember having a debate at two or three in
Speaker 1: the morning and uh uh. Andre Sorkin had this in
Speaker 1: his book Too Big to Fail with one of my
Speaker 1: colleagues about whether anybody ever finds something that they really
Speaker 1: want to buy if you say to them, you can
Speaker 1: virtually have it for nothing. You know. My view was
Speaker 1: Mary Lynch was an incredible firm. We had the best
Speaker 1: wealth management business that in the industry at the time
Speaker 1: we owned Black Rock. We had a first class investment bank.
Speaker 1: There were, as I said, ninety five years in the making.
Speaker 1: Bank of America should pay for all that, and ultimately
Speaker 1: they did, and to their credit, over the ensuing years,
Speaker 1: the deals worked out tremendously for Bank America. We negotiated
Speaker 1: the sale of Marylynch for twice nine dollars a share
Speaker 1: that Sunday morning. It had closed on Friday at seventeen
Speaker 1: dollars a share. That will still be one of the negotiations.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of stuff for my whole career. Again, I
Speaker 1: do think that it was fair value for America, given
Speaker 1: the quality of the people, the franchise, the brand that
Speaker 1: they bought at Mery Lynch. Now that the deal definitely
Speaker 1: worked out for everybody involved. Take a look at a
Speaker 1: recent deal that I don't believe you were involved in
Speaker 1: but in, but it involves one of your old chops.
Speaker 1: You were you were senior at Morgan Stanley. They just
Speaker 1: purchased Eaton Vance for about seven billion dollars. How does
Speaker 1: a friendly deal under terms where there isn't any sort
Speaker 1: of economic crisis or um real financial stress. Clearly we're
Speaker 1: going through is going through its own crisis, but in
Speaker 1: terms of asset managers, it's nothing like two thousand and
Speaker 1: eight or nine. How does a deal like Morgan scooping
Speaker 1: up Eating Vans differ than what you guys had accomplished
Speaker 1: with Bank America and Merrill Lynch. Well, it happens in
Speaker 1: a more traditional fashion. So, Uh, the leadership of Morgan Stanley,
Speaker 1: James Gorman, my old boss, UH, with whom I continue
Speaker 1: to stay in close touch, would be interested in building
Speaker 1: his asset manage of business and would be thinking about
Speaker 1: different firms that might enhance their capabilities, and he might
Speaker 1: have dialogue And none of this, by the way, in
Speaker 1: my repeating firsthand, it is just what what happens in
Speaker 1: cases like this, he would have dialogue in different potential
Speaker 1: directions about firms that might be a good fit. Uh and,
Speaker 1: and it would proceed that way. And in a firm
Speaker 1: like eating Vance might be thinking that they've had a
Speaker 1: good trajectory, but they could have their growth and capabilities
Speaker 1: enhanced by the right partner. That's the typical UH dance
Speaker 1: that occurs in in m in a situation. And that's
Speaker 1: been true for a long time and will always be true.
Speaker 1: Uh And And Frankly, that is the value of experience
Speaker 1: investment bankers who act more as advisors and counselors. And
Speaker 1: this will eventually lead me to what we'll talk about
Speaker 1: Rockefeller later. But one of the things we're trying to
Speaker 1: do at Rocketar Capital Management, whatever the business, is to
Speaker 1: act as an advisor or counselor to the client. And
Speaker 1: I like those words. I think the connotation coming out
Speaker 1: of that is that is an important part of how
Speaker 1: the client UH starts to trust and rely on the
Speaker 1: judgment that you provide. UM. So that's how a transaction
Speaker 1: like that would occur in an environment like this, in
Speaker 1: almost any environment. Frankly, Barry the two thousand, two thousand
Speaker 1: nine time UH in my career is unique because the
Speaker 1: stresses in the financial system there uh were greater than
Speaker 1: anything we've seen before or likely to see for a
Speaker 1: long time. Is its own unique crisis because of the
Speaker 1: breadth of the problems and the fact that COVID affects
Speaker 1: everybody UH and its economy wide. But in terms of
Speaker 1: UH the financial sector in particular, oh eight oh nine
Speaker 1: really was the reckoning uh so transactions that were occurring then,
Speaker 1: you know, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch in in some ways,
Speaker 1: as I said, there was some lead up to it,
Speaker 1: even though a lot of it was that weekend, But
Speaker 1: there are transactions that that were talked about and occurred
Speaker 1: or or didn't occur. But don't have to go through
Speaker 1: the list of very big banks in the in the
Speaker 1: weeks and months that followed that were suggestions suggested quickly
Speaker 1: and looked at very quickly, including the biggest names in
Speaker 1: the space. And that was because there was a real,
Speaker 1: uh sense of of almost panic even on the part
Speaker 1: of the regulators to make sure these big financial institutions
Speaker 1: were going to emerge from that crisis safely and you
Speaker 1: weren't going to have any more financial institutions go the
Speaker 1: path of Lehman Brothers. You know, it's funny, funny you
Speaker 1: say that I have a vivid recollection of my wife's
Speaker 1: Washington Mutual a t M card, and that transaction with
Speaker 1: them and JP Morgan Chase also took place over the weekend.
Speaker 1: And it seems so seamless that on Friday it was
Speaker 1: a Washington Mutual card and on Monday you could use
Speaker 1: it at any Chase a t M without being charged
Speaker 1: the non bank fee for a for a different account.
Speaker 1: The transaction was that fast and that seamless. Um. So
Speaker 1: so clearly that period was unique in in m and
Speaker 1: A history. I want to I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about two more transactions before we move on, um to
Speaker 1: our next set of topics. One is the sale of
Speaker 1: sky Bridge for Mooch for for Anthony Scaramucci, who took
Speaker 1: a position in the White House. Um, what was that
Speaker 1: like in the midst of all of that politicking and
Speaker 1: having the government look over your shoulder due to UH
Speaker 1: national security concerns, what was that Skybridge transaction? Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd known Anthony for a long time, way back to
Speaker 1: after he left Goldman Sachs. He he uh. He started
Speaker 1: a company that was sold to Newburger Berman UH and
Speaker 1: UM I represented him on that and helped him get
Speaker 1: that spail done right around September eleven. And actually the
Speaker 1: president of New Burger at the time was a guy
Speaker 1: named Bob Mantza, who went on to become a good
Speaker 1: friend and counselor to Anthony as well. So, I don't
Speaker 1: know whatever it was. Fifteen or sixteen years later, UH
Speaker 1: I had left Morgan Stanley and Anthony called me and
Speaker 1: asked me if I would help with the sale of
Speaker 1: the business, and I said I would do that for him. UH,
Speaker 1: and we we basically did what we always do. We
Speaker 1: UH put some materials together describing what skybridges and why
Speaker 1: it would be an attractive opportunity. UH. And I had
Speaker 1: a team working with me, and we contacted prospective buyers
Speaker 1: and we took first round bids and then we ultimately, UH,
Speaker 1: we're on a path to negotiate a transaction UH with
Speaker 1: the Chinese buyer, and we we announced it and we
Speaker 1: signed it and then UH it was early two thousand
Speaker 1: seventeen and President Trump took office and UH it ultimately
Speaker 1: never got all the regulatary approvals that needed to and
Speaker 1: UH the deal didn't go forward. So from my vantage
Speaker 1: point though, it was more of an ordinary course transaction
Speaker 1: where I was helping Anthony put his business in in
Speaker 1: a new hand. The ocean was that they were going
Speaker 1: to leverage that Skybridge product based outside the US and
Speaker 1: bring distribution, particularly in Asia. It was all kind of
Speaker 1: more of a of a logical regular transaction. Huh. So
Speaker 1: let me ask you about what might be a totally
Speaker 1: different type of transaction. You were involved in several variations
Speaker 1: of the deal to sell uh the Miami Marlins ultimately
Speaker 1: and ended up in the hands of a consortium of
Speaker 1: people that, if I recall correctly, included both Derek Jeter
Speaker 1: and Michael Jordan's tell us about the h the Marlins
Speaker 1: transaction and what was some of the early iterations of
Speaker 1: that like, well, actually, Barry I represented the group buying
Speaker 1: new Marlins because of a friendship I have with with
Speaker 1: Derek Uh. When I had left Morgan Stanley, Derek had
Speaker 1: read tired and he was very focused on being an
Speaker 1: owner of a major league franchise. He and I have
Speaker 1: been friends back to my early years at Morgan Familey
Speaker 1: about ten years now, so we were looking at different
Speaker 1: baseball clubs that we might be able to buy the
Speaker 1: Marlins for for sale. Derek was focused on different parts
Speaker 1: of the of the country that he'd like to own
Speaker 1: a team in. In In Miami was certainly on that list.
Speaker 1: So we put a group together to buy the Marlins
Speaker 1: and and ultimately, Uh, we're the winning bidders. UM. I
Speaker 1: advised the group, I advised Derek Uh. He and I,
Speaker 1: as you know, continue to work closely together today. I'm
Speaker 1: one of the owners in the in the Marlins, although
Speaker 1: one of the smaller owners, and I do UH sit
Speaker 1: sit on the board and continue to advise the Derek
Speaker 1: on a on a range of things. UM. One of
Speaker 1: the things that we're proud of with the Marlins is
Speaker 1: that the franchise is in a really good spot, having
Speaker 1: gone through two or three years of turnaround. Here Derek
Speaker 1: is the CEO of the Marlins. He runs the whole club,
Speaker 1: baseball and business. He's put his own team in place,
Speaker 1: and you saw he made a terrific higher last week.
Speaker 1: The first female general manager in Major League Baseball history.
Speaker 1: Who Derek and this says a lot about who Derek
Speaker 1: is thought was the best person for the job. But
Speaker 1: he also was pleased to see a barrier like that broken.
Speaker 1: So that was announced just last week. So uh the
Speaker 1: the Uh, I'm not going to comment on who other
Speaker 1: owners are as it is a private club and um,
Speaker 1: the names of specific owners are. It's up to them
Speaker 1: to say whether they're an owner or not. But Derek
Speaker 1: has many, as you know, uh friends across the landscape
Speaker 1: and lots of people rooting for him and supporting him.
Speaker 1: And uh he's he's done a terrific job leading this
Speaker 1: uh this club so far. And uh you saw that
Speaker 1: we uh the Marlins were in the playoffs last year,
Speaker 1: they were the surprise team. They have one of the
Speaker 1: top of farm systems in baseball. Now dark put that
Speaker 1: together with people he hired Gary Denbo who was with
Speaker 1: the Yankees, and we expect the Miami Marlins to do well.
Speaker 1: You're in in Europe for a long time under the
Speaker 1: enlightened leadership of Derrick here. Huh quite quite fascinating. Let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your current place of employment.
Speaker 1: The Rockefeller Family Office has been around for a really
Speaker 1: long time. What was the thinking behind transforming this into
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Capital Management? Barry, Let let me walk you through
Speaker 1: how Rockefeller Capital Management came into existence and it will
Speaker 1: provide some color on the Rockefeller legacy. So in March
Speaker 1: of two thousand and eighteen, we bought Rock and Co.
Speaker 1: Rock and Co. Was originally the family office of John
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Senior, the the guy, the one who started it
Speaker 1: all way back in two It became a multifamily office
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, and when we bought it in
Speaker 1: March of two thousand eighteen, we rebranded it renamed it
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Capital Management because we wanted to be clear that
Speaker 1: we were in partnership with the Rockefellers, but that we
Speaker 1: were taking care of clients across a broad spectrum of clients.
Speaker 1: So we thought Rock and Co. Sounded more like a
Speaker 1: specific family office, So it's Rockefeller Capital Management. We are
Speaker 1: in partnership with the Rockefellers, though many of them are
Speaker 1: our clients. Two of them sit on our board, David
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Jr. And Peter O'Neill. They are part owners of
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Capital Management, the family UH, and they're important partners,
Speaker 1: and they care about what we do with their iconic
Speaker 1: name UH and how we treat it. And the name
Speaker 1: has been spectacular. It is an aim that is respected
Speaker 1: in every corner of the United States and around the world.
Speaker 1: What the family has done over decades, over many decades
Speaker 1: in philanthropy UH in the United States and in different
Speaker 1: parts of the world. There's a hospital in Beijing at
Speaker 1: the family started in n that's still there and highly regarded.
Speaker 1: The Rockefellers started Spellman College way back in the eighteen eighties.
Speaker 1: The reach of the Rockefellers in terms of the imprints
Speaker 1: that they've made in a positive sense on society, the philanthropy.
Speaker 1: They were one of the earliest in sustainable investing. In fact,
Speaker 1: the Rockefellers coined impact investing at one of our sister organizations,
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation. So the Rockefellers are an amazing part of
Speaker 1: the United States history, an iconic name around which we're
Speaker 1: building our business. So our business is UH really advising
Speaker 1: and counseling clients across wealth management, strategic advisory, investment banking,
Speaker 1: and asset management, and all those different pieces fit together well.
Speaker 1: The wealth management is the business that the predecessor company
Speaker 1: was in, and it's really what we're putting at the
Speaker 1: heart of Rockefeller Capital Management. And what we've been working
Speaker 1: on Barry in the last two and a half years
Speaker 1: is building from scratch a private wealth business focused on
Speaker 1: um best in class private wealth advisors taking care of
Speaker 1: clients as they do throughout the industry, and marrying that
Speaker 1: to a family office that have capabilities including trust companies
Speaker 1: and other things that the business that we bought bring
Speaker 1: to the table to create a holistic offering for clients.
Speaker 1: We're trying on the wealth management side to take care
Speaker 1: of clients across all of their needs, not just investments
Speaker 1: and asset allocation, but generational work. We've taken care of
Speaker 1: seven generations of Rockefeller as we have to trust companies
Speaker 1: were integrating involved in helping clients figure out what they
Speaker 1: do with their money for follow up generations. So that's
Speaker 1: our wealth management platform. In addition to what we do
Speaker 1: for those clients. On the wealth management side, we do
Speaker 1: have a strategic advisory business and this was intentional. This
Speaker 1: comes out of my background and it was part of
Speaker 1: the vision that we had for rock Stellar Capital Management.
Speaker 1: In the United States, much of the wealth for families
Speaker 1: comes from starting businesses. That's the defining characteristic of the
Speaker 1: United States and to this day there's so many private
Speaker 1: businesses that are started by families that get built up.
Speaker 1: So we wanted to make sure that we had the
Speaker 1: capabilities to advise those families and what they should do
Speaker 1: with those business, whether it's to continue to invest in
Speaker 1: them and run them and keep them private, whether it's
Speaker 1: potentially to sell the business or take it public. So
Speaker 1: we have Rockefeller Strategic Advisory, which is there to provide
Speaker 1: that kind of advice to the family. We obviously do
Speaker 1: a fair amount of investment banking work away from just
Speaker 1: taking care of our families, and we have some of
Speaker 1: the most senior and seasoned investment bankers, advisors, counselors as
Speaker 1: I like to say, working at Rockefeller Capital Management with us.
Speaker 1: And then I'll ask the management business often serves those
Speaker 1: uh wealthy clients on the wealth management side, but we're
Speaker 1: also building our usset management business through institutions and intermediaries,
Speaker 1: so it's a standalone opportunity for clients outside of our
Speaker 1: wealth manager business. Our asset manager business focuses on E
Speaker 1: s G investing. They've been doing it longer than most
Speaker 1: firms because the family, the Rockefeller family, got into this
Speaker 1: sooner than many. So we're very focused in our Rockefeller
Speaker 1: st management business, not sustainable investing, and we're raising assets
Speaker 1: around the world and things like ocean engagement and climate
Speaker 1: solutions and other strategies that are increasingly getting a following
Speaker 1: not just among millennials and Generation Z, but mainstream investors.
Speaker 1: I would imagine clients like the Rockefeller family or other
Speaker 1: people of great wealth that have been um managing that
Speaker 1: wealth for many generations, are going to demand a certain
Speaker 1: level of service. And as I was kicking around your website,
Speaker 1: I noticed that some of the services were really kind
Speaker 1: of interesting. Obviously, philanthropic advisory service is pretty standard in
Speaker 1: the wealth management space, but you also do things like
Speaker 1: private health advisory and personal security. Tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about some of these UH concierge level services that
Speaker 1: you're offering to the ultra high net worth investor. Berry,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you were going around the website, and I'm
Speaker 1: pleased to get that question because it's at the heart
Speaker 1: of what we're trying to do for our clients, and
Speaker 1: we believe it differentiates us at Rockefellar Capital Management because
Speaker 1: our exclusive focus is on high net worth and ultra
Speaker 1: high net worth clients and and UH families, and what
Speaker 1: we're trying to do with them is provide them holistic
Speaker 1: thinking and service. We want to solve their problems wherever
Speaker 1: they like. And that includes conflict free advice on on
Speaker 1: whatever they come to us with. It includes things like
Speaker 1: what you were just describing. We call it Rocket Rockefeller
Speaker 1: a lifestyle advisory. We have relationships joint ventures with different
Speaker 1: partners who brings things to bear that our clients might
Speaker 1: be looking for along the way, even if it's not
Speaker 1: tied to investing and generational planning and the specific financial side.
Speaker 1: And I'll give you an example. I have a twenty
Speaker 1: year old son who is traveling a few years ago
Speaker 1: and we were a little bit uh focused, my wife
Speaker 1: and I on security in some of the places he
Speaker 1: wanted to travel in, and we UH were put into
Speaker 1: contact with a private security company who which was run
Speaker 1: and we link this. The founder was somebody who had
Speaker 1: expertise in the space and it was his firm, and
Speaker 1: they gave us some advice on how to make sure
Speaker 1: that he acted safely in the places he was in.
Speaker 1: You know, they offered a GPS chip to UH that
Speaker 1: we could uh we and they could keep an eye
Speaker 1: on where he was safely things like that, and he
Speaker 1: took the trip. There are many clients that UH that
Speaker 1: have family members that might benefit from that advice and
Speaker 1: they don't know where to turn, they can turn to us.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing on on We have a joint
Speaker 1: venture with the healthcare company, and even high net worth
Speaker 1: and ultra hignet worth clients sometimes if they leave a job,
Speaker 1: they don't have healthcare. We can help them get the
Speaker 1: healthcare in a in a ficial and and cost effective
Speaker 1: manner through our joint venture partner. So we want to
Speaker 1: be there for the client, whatever the need, and that's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we put together Rockefeller Lifestyle Advisory.
Speaker 1: We deliver all of this barry through the person who's
Speaker 1: at the center of the relationship with the client, so
Speaker 1: we're not having lots of different people reach out to
Speaker 1: the client. We have a private wealth advisor who is
Speaker 1: the point of contact for the client on all of this.
Speaker 1: We're just channeling this through to the private wealth advisor
Speaker 1: and the people focused on managing the client relationship so
Speaker 1: that they have access to all this but is delivered
Speaker 1: in a holistic, efficient manner to the specific client. One
Speaker 1: one of the things in that lifestyle grouping is philanthropic advisory.
Speaker 1: And I have to note how many different boards that
Speaker 1: you yourself are either on or have been on. We
Speaker 1: mentioned black Rock previously, but you're on the board of
Speaker 1: advi users for the Yale Law School Center for the
Speaker 1: Study of Corporate Law. Um, you were a former director
Speaker 1: at Colgate University, you know, on the Council of Foreign Relations,
Speaker 1: the Economic Club of New York, the Ronald McDonald House
Speaker 1: Board of Directors. How does that experience color the sort
Speaker 1: of advice you're capable of providing to ultra high net
Speaker 1: worth investors. You know, we we do a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of work with these ultra high net worth investors in
Speaker 1: terms of both talking this through and helping them set up,
Speaker 1: you know, the efficient structures foundations through which they can
Speaker 1: direct their wealth. One of the things that that I'm
Speaker 1: proud of personally given my background, and I'm proud of
Speaker 1: of a lot of Americans, is the notion of giving back.
Speaker 1: You know, my father was the first one in his
Speaker 1: family to go to college. His father and my grandfather
Speaker 1: graduated from the second grade and went to work. My mother,
Speaker 1: his father, my grandfather on that side, graduated from the
Speaker 1: eighth grade and went to work. So I feel incredibly
Speaker 1: lucky to have had the career and the life that
Speaker 1: I'm living, and I want to do what I can
Speaker 1: wherever I can to have an impact on others and
Speaker 1: inculcating that in my children, and they already feel that.
Speaker 1: We have so many clients to think that way, and
Speaker 1: one of the great things about this country. Lots of
Speaker 1: challenges in this country at this point in time, but
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I remained very upbeat on the
Speaker 1: United States going forward is because of the people in it,
Speaker 1: the breadth of talent, the desire to have a positive impact.
Speaker 1: So this is barrio topic. We've spent a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of time with clients, including how to give back and
Speaker 1: where they want to give back and what are they
Speaker 1: most interested in and how can we help them do
Speaker 1: that efficiently. We also talk to clients about how to
Speaker 1: talk to their children about money, because a lot of
Speaker 1: the money in this country is first generation, maybe second generation,
Speaker 1: and we want to make sure that the dialogues occurring
Speaker 1: in as constructive away as possible, always factoring in the
Speaker 1: individual interests in the individual situation of a specific family.
Speaker 1: But these are very important topics for for people once
Speaker 1: they create well, what to do with it, how it
Speaker 1: impacts their children, and grandchildren, what to do with them
Speaker 1: in society where they can use it to have a
Speaker 1: positive impact on something they personally care about. That's at
Speaker 1: the heart of the kinds of advice that we're giving
Speaker 1: our clients. You know, we saw a report today about
Speaker 1: hedge fund under performance. There's been a lot of interest
Speaker 1: in private equity and venture capital, but there hasn't been
Speaker 1: as much alpha as a lot of ultra high net
Speaker 1: investors would have liked. Do you find this group of
Speaker 1: investors getting a little fed up for for the expense
Speaker 1: of for the expensive alpha Chafer's chasers, for the expensive
Speaker 1: alpha chasing. Are they still willing to stick with hedge
Speaker 1: funds and venture capital or is it a price let's
Speaker 1: call it underperforming asset class that people are starting to
Speaker 1: get a little run out of patients with Well, Barry,
Speaker 1: I'll give a broader answer, and then we can dig
Speaker 1: into the different pieces. I think for UH wealthy investors,
Speaker 1: you know, the traditional sixty forty or seventy thirty asset
Speaker 1: allocation rule might be less relevant as they might have
Speaker 1: lower liquidity need and therefore it can take a longer
Speaker 1: term view less impacted by what happens in UH. In
Speaker 1: short term market movements, so they might not be focused
Speaker 1: just on equity and fixed income, but more on growth assets,
Speaker 1: income and asset protection assets as as corollary buckets. And
Speaker 1: there's no question that private equity remains a big component
Speaker 1: of ultra high network portfolios and it has continued to
Speaker 1: perform well over over cycles. And actually companies are increasingly
Speaker 1: staying private longer and this has allowed wealthy investors to
Speaker 1: do something called direct investing, which is being part of
Speaker 1: capital rounds of private companies. H and that's been a
Speaker 1: significant change and something that's much more pronounced in recent years.
Speaker 1: So it's not just private equity, it's also direct investing,
Speaker 1: and we see a fair amount of appetite on the
Speaker 1: part of our clients for uh those types of opportunities
Speaker 1: as well. Now as fund as you said, have struggled
Speaker 1: more in general. And you know, we have a private
Speaker 1: investment platform where we diligence many private equity firms and
Speaker 1: many hedge funds, and you need to be careful in
Speaker 1: picking the sector and the strategy across alternatives that makes
Speaker 1: sense for clients, and manager selection within that is a
Speaker 1: very important process making sure that the client is investing
Speaker 1: in a manager that you're thoroughly diligence and you're comfortable
Speaker 1: with the way they're approaching the strategy and how they're
Speaker 1: likely to perform over over time. And we think you
Speaker 1: can you can put together a diversified mix of top
Speaker 1: quartile managers UH. And you know that doesn't mean you're
Speaker 1: not going to move some in and out. But there's
Speaker 1: still significant demand from our wealthy investors for a broader
Speaker 1: cross section of alternatives, including, as they said, direct investment.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about something we're discussing earlier,
Speaker 1: the transfer and advisements on generational wealth. A lot of
Speaker 1: complexities within each families. There are a lot of internal
Speaker 1: dynamics that nobody really wants to get in them in
Speaker 1: the middle of how do you how do you navigate
Speaker 1: all that? It seems kind of could be challenging. You know,
Speaker 1: very give been what I've described you here, which is
Speaker 1: that we see ourselves as advisors and counselors to our
Speaker 1: clients across all of the different needs that they have.
Speaker 1: This is an area that we spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time in and we talked to clients about how to
Speaker 1: talk to UH younger generations about money. We spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time talking to clients about how to direct
Speaker 1: resources into philanthropy and into specific areas of giving back
Speaker 1: that they're interested in. And it varies from from family
Speaker 1: to family. This is where you want to be thinking holistically,
Speaker 1: but bringing the counsel on an individualistic basis. But it
Speaker 1: is something that is an important part of what we
Speaker 1: do for our clients. So so there's an old expression.
Speaker 1: It's you know, shirts leaves to shirts leaves in three
Speaker 1: generations that by the time you get that far away
Speaker 1: from the original founders creation of wealth, it tends to
Speaker 1: get squandered. How do you manage around that issue? How
Speaker 1: do you how do you prevent that third generation from
Speaker 1: squandering all that wealth? You know, first of all, Barry,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are examples of that being true, a
Speaker 1: third generation having a challenge with money, and there are
Speaker 1: examples where it's not true. And I can tell you
Speaker 1: that we're working now with the seventh generation of Rockefellers.
Speaker 1: So they have been good stewards of the capital that
Speaker 1: John Rockefeller primarily was the the creator of over many generations. Uh,
Speaker 1: And they've done that while giving back on such a
Speaker 1: comprehensive basis. So I think, you know, like a lot
Speaker 1: of phrases, maybe some truth in that and and uh
Speaker 1: and not so. In many cases, we do view ourselves
Speaker 1: as having a real role in providing candid, direct advice
Speaker 1: to clients on the amount of wealth and what makes
Speaker 1: sense in terms of current consumption versus things they would
Speaker 1: link to do uh, in terms of leaving money to
Speaker 1: follow on generations or setting up philanthropic organizations to give
Speaker 1: back during their lifetimes. And it's an important part of
Speaker 1: the council that that we provide on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: But I know so many of our clients and so
Speaker 1: many people that have done well in this society. And
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, often from creating a business and
Speaker 1: growing it. And if you're starting a business from scratch
Speaker 1: and growing it, and this would be true even if
Speaker 1: you get all the way to where Amazon is, there
Speaker 1: are countless hours so hard to do. So there are
Speaker 1: a lot of admirable characteristics running through that successful business generation,
Speaker 1: and that often gets transferred to the next generation and
Speaker 1: the generation after that. I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: with resources, many of whom have created it for themselves
Speaker 1: and their families first generation who are very focused on
Speaker 1: how to raise their children, how to have an impact
Speaker 1: on grandchildren so that they are good stewards of capital
Speaker 1: and they're continuing to give back into society in generations
Speaker 1: down the line. Mhm. Interesting. So we you mentioned briefly
Speaker 1: before that Rockefeller was um coined the phrase impact investing.
Speaker 1: We've been hearing about the rise of e s G Environmental, social,
Speaker 1: and governance investing, but it doesn't seem like this space
Speaker 1: has been capturing a lot of assets yet. How do
Speaker 1: you see this E s G investing develop Where do
Speaker 1: you think this goes from here? We think it's a
Speaker 1: secular growth trend. Uh And in fact, over time, we
Speaker 1: think E s G investing could really become almost a
Speaker 1: rapper for all investing. And I'll tell you why. And
Speaker 1: first of all, in on a geographic basis, UH, the
Speaker 1: Europeans are ahead in this. They've been pushing this for
Speaker 1: a while. We've had real success in in UH in
Speaker 1: raising assets from clients in Europe. But the reason that
Speaker 1: we think it's a secular growth trend is simply because
Speaker 1: of the focus of the generations that are coming and
Speaker 1: how millennials and Generation Z are. They view this not
Speaker 1: as something transitory that they're not in the kind of
Speaker 1: feel good part of their lives, and they're gonna let
Speaker 1: it go. The belief in investing in a sustainable way
Speaker 1: that takes into account the environment in which we live,
Speaker 1: the governance structure of companies, the social issues in society. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, when I started, when I came out of
Speaker 1: law school in the late nineteen eighties, it was very
Speaker 1: clear that the mandate of the corporation was to maximize
Speaker 1: profits for shareholders and to allow those shareholders to do
Speaker 1: what they will with those profits. Companies today are much
Speaker 1: focused on our broader cross section of issues and they
Speaker 1: have been prodded there by society and it's now been
Speaker 1: embraced on a much broader basis. So companies do think
Speaker 1: about constituents other than shareholders. How do they operate in
Speaker 1: their community, how do they treat their employees? You know,
Speaker 1: what are they're responding to in terms of things that
Speaker 1: are happening in society And and really corporations are taking
Speaker 1: even the lead on some of these things where thirty
Speaker 1: years ago they would have been dissuaded or frowned on
Speaker 1: from doing that. So that ripples itself all the way
Speaker 1: through to investing companies are focused on how they operate
Speaker 1: in society. Companies are being asked, tell us about your
Speaker 1: environmental footprint, what are you doing to make it better?
Speaker 1: Tell us about how you're you're governing yourselves. What is
Speaker 1: your board makeup look like? How are you working in
Speaker 1: terms of diversity. All of this is UH is tied together.
Speaker 1: And on the investing side, those millennials and Generation Z.
Speaker 1: And I fancy myself uh an armshare expert here because
Speaker 1: I have three kids in their twenties the first part
Speaker 1: of their twenties, and I know a lot of their friends,
Speaker 1: and UH, I think that these generations are are going
Speaker 1: to hold on to this for their lifetimes, and they're
Speaker 1: about to be the dominant part of the workforce, of
Speaker 1: the capital structure, of the investing structure. You know, that's
Speaker 1: all happening. In fact, they're also increasingly, as you know,
Speaker 1: very influencing elections. UH and the group between the ages
Speaker 1: of eighteen and thirty nine were approximately of the voting
Speaker 1: electorate in this election. That's just going up every year now.
Speaker 1: So our view is it's secular, it's real. We were
Speaker 1: one of the front runners in developing these capabilities and
Speaker 1: our asset management business and we're going to work hard
Speaker 1: to continue to grow those capabilities and offer them through
Speaker 1: it to clients both on the institutional and inter mediary
Speaker 1: side of our st management but also across our wealth
Speaker 1: management client So so let's stick with that idea and
Speaker 1: and stay focused with both UM E, s G and philanthropy.
Speaker 1: Wealth inequality has has really expanded dramatically over the past
Speaker 1: few decades, but COVID and the pandemic lockdown has really
Speaker 1: had a giant impact. It certainly has hurt people who
Speaker 1: are at the bottom of the economic scale, and in
Speaker 1: some ways it's been helpful to a lot of industries
Speaker 1: at the top of the scale, from finance, the technology,
Speaker 1: and and even some of the retail aspects that that
Speaker 1: are Internet based. What sort of philanthropic steps do you
Speaker 1: see clients undertaking in order to address UH the ongoing
Speaker 1: issues generated by the coronavirus. Well, first of all, as
Speaker 1: you said, Barry, the wealth inequality was and is a
Speaker 1: major topic for the United States and for all of
Speaker 1: us pre COVID. COVID has certainly accelerated and reinforced that
Speaker 1: in some of the ways you talked about, including the
Speaker 1: fact that a lot of the UH non work from
Speaker 1: home businesses are more there's a broader cross section of
Speaker 1: workers that are affected in those businesses. Uh that uh
Speaker 1: that COVID has had the biggest impact on. So this
Speaker 1: notion of wealth in equality is something that that people
Speaker 1: are focused on across the spectrum from an age uh
Speaker 1: and and demographic standpoint. Uh. The whole uh way that
Speaker 1: this country has thrived and succeeded over generations is the
Speaker 1: concept that everybody has a shot. Everybody has a fair
Speaker 1: shot of creating in existence for them and their families
Speaker 1: that is better than the existence that they personally might
Speaker 1: have had. And and UH, you know, I was listening
Speaker 1: last week too. There's a West Virginia senator who's a
Speaker 1: Democrat who was talking about a centrist agenda. And that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that that I comment on coming
Speaker 1: out of this election. I think people really aren't as
Speaker 1: divided as uh some of the pundits say that Americans
Speaker 1: want more centrist policies that uh, and and politicians, whether
Speaker 1: Republican or Democrats, that helps solve problems. And this this
Speaker 1: Senator Joe Mention said his constituents want to have an
Speaker 1: opportunity to take care of themselves and their families in
Speaker 1: the best possible way. Education, skill sets, opportunities for jobs.
Speaker 1: That's something that I think is held on a broad
Speaker 1: basis across the country. So we have a lot of
Speaker 1: clients that look for different ways of impacting that, including
Speaker 1: giving money to to UH to universities to broaden their
Speaker 1: ability to admit different kinds of students. I could give
Speaker 1: a whole laundry list of things that that our clients
Speaker 1: are are focused on. UH two get to the heart
Speaker 1: of of the inequality of income issue and the need
Speaker 1: for the United States to flourish for the next hundred
Speaker 1: or two hundred or more years, tied to everybody feeling
Speaker 1: like they've got the shot. Quite interesting. So I have
Speaker 1: before I get to my favorite questions, I have two
Speaker 1: last questions for you. The first is UM I got
Speaker 1: to meet Derek Jeter earlier this year at UH an
Speaker 1: Inside et F conference, and I was taken by just
Speaker 1: how thoughtful and articulate and funny and warm he was.
Speaker 1: He really was a delightful UH speaker. I got to
Speaker 1: spend some time with him after the event. But I
Speaker 1: notice on your again on the rough Fell website, Derek
Speaker 1: Jeter is the special Advisor to the CEO, which is you,
Speaker 1: what sort of advice does Derek Jeter give you? Well,
Speaker 1: Derek UH and I spend a fair amount of time
Speaker 1: together and he provides me a lot of important advice
Speaker 1: and I returned the favor. UM. So he provides advice
Speaker 1: to me and to Rockefeller on on a range of topics,
Speaker 1: you know, including UH, strategic and personnel and some of
Speaker 1: the things I'm doing. He's got terrific instincts on that.
Speaker 1: He has built a first class team at the Miami
Speaker 1: Marlins and has uh really taken an organization that had
Speaker 1: real challenges and put uh put it on a whole
Speaker 1: different track. So I'll bounce lots of things off of him.
Speaker 1: He UH. He also is very helpful with clients and
Speaker 1: and UH and and client prospects as well as potential hires. UH.
Speaker 1: He's willing to get on the phone with virtually anybody
Speaker 1: and tell them UH why he's affiliated with Rockefeller Capital Management.
Speaker 1: We feel like we share a lot of the same
Speaker 1: values when I first started getting close to Derek, given
Speaker 1: the fact that he needs to be and is careful
Speaker 1: about those around him, given how many people are looking
Speaker 1: for access for all sorts of reasons. I spent time
Speaker 1: with his parents. He met my children, His parents met
Speaker 1: my children. You know, we did. We went to different
Speaker 1: sporting events. You know, my children in the early twenties.
Speaker 1: They've known Derek for a decade. Uh. You know, I
Speaker 1: know his family. The values are similar, the career path
Speaker 1: and the things that we've done. You know, my baseball
Speaker 1: career ended with senior year of high school. Um, we've
Speaker 1: We've done different things in life. But I have a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that matter to each of us
Speaker 1: in common. So I race something with Derek around a
Speaker 1: key personnel issue and get his views because he's got
Speaker 1: great judgment as a leader and great judgment as a
Speaker 1: motivator of people. He does the same. Uh. So it's
Speaker 1: a it's not the relationship. He's a special advisor to
Speaker 1: the CEO, and it's a that's an active, regular role
Speaker 1: that he provides. Uh. And I talked to him on
Speaker 1: a very regular basis on the Miami Marlins and what's
Speaker 1: happening there quite interesting. All right, let me throw a
Speaker 1: curve ball at you, speaking of baseball, for our final question,
Speaker 1: anyone ever give you a gratuity or throw you a
Speaker 1: tip at the end of a banking deal. The only
Speaker 1: uh person who uh ever I think paid us more
Speaker 1: than was in a contract that I can recall, and
Speaker 1: he's reminded me of this. So was Anthony Scaramucci way
Speaker 1: back in the deal that we did around September eleven
Speaker 1: where we sold his business to Newberger Berman. We had
Speaker 1: a deal to sell the business and it was going
Speaker 1: to close after September eleventh, and September eleventh occurred, and
Speaker 1: Bob Matza, the president of New Burger Berman, called me
Speaker 1: and he said, Greg, I've given everything going on here. Uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know that we can do this deal in
Speaker 1: the same terms. And I said, okay, Bob, we'll adjust
Speaker 1: the terms, but we want to have some upside if
Speaker 1: it works out as well as we think it can,
Speaker 1: and he agreed. I believe it might have been options
Speaker 1: in uh a New Burger. I forget exactly what it was, um,
Speaker 1: but we put something in place that provided some upside
Speaker 1: to Anthony and his team and he was elated and
Speaker 1: never forgot it. And uh, I think pade us a
Speaker 1: investment banking feed through Mary Lynch that was beyond what
Speaker 1: was negotiated. Quite quite funny, all right, So I only
Speaker 1: have you for about five minutes. Let's plow through our
Speaker 1: speed rounds. These are our favorite questions we asked all
Speaker 1: of our guests and starts out with what do you
Speaker 1: stream me these days? Tell us what you're watching on Netflix?
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things I want to say
Speaker 1: Barry at the asset here is I never, over the
Speaker 1: years watched a lot of TV from you know they
Speaker 1: call it content today. Uh, My wife and I there
Speaker 1: were certain certain shows that we liked, like Seinfeld and
Speaker 1: Friends in the Office sp typically like The Edge, Humor
Speaker 1: and h and by the way, Jeopardy uh and and
Speaker 1: Alex Trebek is such a sad thing for for us
Speaker 1: as uh and I was married and he started that
Speaker 1: in the eighties and I read that, Uh there were
Speaker 1: two shows that he did. I think we saw half
Speaker 1: of them at least, So that was a picture for us.
Speaker 1: And when I wasn't traveling and when I was home
Speaker 1: and I still do to this day and trying to
Speaker 1: catch as many of the final ones here as I can.
Speaker 1: That was something we watched, but not much beyond that
Speaker 1: content today. And this is one of the things I
Speaker 1: say to my kids all the time. The world today,
Speaker 1: there's so much in it for young people and for
Speaker 1: people today. Uh and contents and example of that because
Speaker 1: it's terrific. So uh, you know, from a streaming standpoint,
Speaker 1: we liked the historically based thing program. So we've watched Chernobyl. Uh,
Speaker 1: we watched something on the Challenger. Um, you know, we
Speaker 1: just on the on the movie side, we just watched
Speaker 1: the trial of the Chicago Seven, which was fascinating. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, we also like some of the suspense type
Speaker 1: UH shows. There was a BBC show called Line of
Speaker 1: Duty which we liked. I loved the movie Death of Stalin,
Speaker 1: which I thought was so so well done. So there's
Speaker 1: quite a bit uh in the streaming world that I
Speaker 1: do and we do find time to see today. I
Speaker 1: give credits that the content makers. There's a lot out there.
Speaker 1: Tell us about your early mentors who helped shape your
Speaker 1: early career. There are two that I would highlight here.
Speaker 1: One is uh a guy named Jerry Kenny who was
Speaker 1: a senior executive at Meryl for decades and then he
Speaker 1: went and worked for black Rock for about a decade
Speaker 1: and sadly uh died uh last year. He's been He
Speaker 1: was a mentor to me and was part of my
Speaker 1: life for decades. He was an incredibly decent, high integrity man, thoughtful. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was on the Meryl board, he ran many of
Speaker 1: the businesses there. Uh. He was a scholarship athlete at
Speaker 1: Yale in the nineteen sixties. Um. And I had several
Speaker 1: brothers go there as well. They all played football at Yale.
Speaker 1: Just a tremendous man. He was a bit of a
Speaker 1: mentor to my kids too. I have a couple of
Speaker 1: children who one who graduated, one who's at Yale. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Jerry did things a certain way. Uh. He worked
Speaker 1: very hard it to win, but he functioned a certain
Speaker 1: way and that had a big impact on me from
Speaker 1: the earliest time I knew him, which was in the
Speaker 1: nine A second person who's been a mentor to me
Speaker 1: over many years is Larry Fink. I've known Larry since
Speaker 1: the mid nineties. Um. I've known him since black Rock
Speaker 1: was uh, you know, a company worth a billion dollars
Speaker 1: when we took a public in the late nineties, and frankly,
Speaker 1: it was worth less than than that when I first
Speaker 1: started working with him in the mid nineties. Uh. He's
Speaker 1: been there for me in many critical moments. When I
Speaker 1: left Mary Lynch after he'd been sold to Bank of America.
Speaker 1: He was somebody I went to and and talked it
Speaker 1: all through with. So he's been a mentor of mine
Speaker 1: and he's a He and Jerry are both about, you know,
Speaker 1: a click ahead of me in terms of generation. Jerry
Speaker 1: was twenty years older than me and Larry's a little
Speaker 1: more than ten. Uh. And Larry has had a big
Speaker 1: impact on me as well. He's tenacious, he worked so hard.
Speaker 1: He's the famous Jerry. He's going to do things a
Speaker 1: certain way, but he is uh, frankly obsessive about doing
Speaker 1: it well. He cares so much about Black Rock. He's
Speaker 1: treated it like it's his firm. For you know, it's
Speaker 1: been public for over twenty years, and you know he
Speaker 1: still treats it as if it's it's all his money.
Speaker 1: So these are two terrific human beings who have had
Speaker 1: a big impact on me. Quite quite fascinating. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about everybody's favorite question. Tell us about what books you're reading,
Speaker 1: either currently or some of your favorites. Yeah, I'll give
Speaker 1: you some of my favorites, longtime favorites, Barry. Uh. They're
Speaker 1: the traditional ones. Uh. The fountain Head probably very high
Speaker 1: on the list. Pride and Prejudice. Uh is definitely my
Speaker 1: wife's favorite book, and it's up there for me. Uh. So,
Speaker 1: I I do read a lot. I always have, all
Speaker 1: five of us do. I have three children and my wife.
Speaker 1: My father read The ton still at the age of
Speaker 1: eighty seven. Um. I like uh nonfiction a lot so Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, A Team of Rivals by Doris Kern's Goodwin
Speaker 1: was one of my favorites. Lincoln was just incredible and
Speaker 1: the ability to still treat people a certain way even
Speaker 1: if they were challenging or difficult to him. I read
Speaker 1: her biography. This was published twenty five years ago. Uh,
Speaker 1: but I just read recently the book on the Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: It was really focused on Franklin, but there was a
Speaker 1: lot about Eleanor in there that I didn't know. And
Speaker 1: she was frankly tremendous first lady and the first one
Speaker 1: really actively involved in her own space, which was not
Speaker 1: surprisingly controversial in the thirties and forties. I read a
Speaker 1: fair amount of suspense as well. UM. A book that
Speaker 1: I finished not so long ago was called I'll Be
Speaker 1: Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara, which actually helped
Speaker 1: authorities capture the Golden State Killer. Uh and and he's
Speaker 1: he's in jail and serving life sentences now. And this
Speaker 1: woman wrote this book which was both um, you know,
Speaker 1: made you uneasy, and she really researched it and sadly
Speaker 1: she died just as she was finishing it. Uh. Read
Speaker 1: recently a book on endurance called Endurance Earnest Shackleton that
Speaker 1: stories incredible stories. So lots out there in the space.
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised it's a favorite question for people. It
Speaker 1: definitely is. We We actually had a client who gave
Speaker 1: everybody in the office a copy of the Shackleton book.
Speaker 1: And it's amazing some of these nonfiction books they read
Speaker 1: like thrillers. It is amazing. Barrier, I mean, that's his
Speaker 1: life too. And he has this quotation that I love
Speaker 1: where he said true moral courage is optimism and I
Speaker 1: I repeat that, and I talked to people about that.
Speaker 1: You know, leadership, at least for me, and I think
Speaker 1: for the best leaders, like Lincoln, is is positive motivation.
Speaker 1: You have to be the one who's still, you know,
Speaker 1: standing there and saying this can get done. And that's
Speaker 1: really a lot of leadership, and Shackleton captured it so well.
Speaker 1: So it is it's a page turner, that book and
Speaker 1: his life was he had to say the least. Uh.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about recent college graduates. What sort of advice
Speaker 1: would you give them, especially if they were thinking about
Speaker 1: a career in finance. You know, I would tell them
Speaker 1: two things on a broader basis, um uh. And I
Speaker 1: do give a lot of advice, some of it. Uh.
Speaker 1: I told you. I'm raising three children are in their twenties,
Speaker 1: so from they get more than an even like um.
Speaker 1: But one of the things I say to young people
Speaker 1: all over the places worked for great people. And then
Speaker 1: when you get in a position to do this, hire
Speaker 1: great people. It sounds easy, and it hardly happened. People
Speaker 1: want to make sure they're the most impressive in a room.
Speaker 1: They want to make sure that they're in control. H
Speaker 1: I've been able to do so much in my career
Speaker 1: because I've hired people that are better than me, and
Speaker 1: so many things and so many examples along the way
Speaker 1: higher great people, motivate them and watch them flourish. And
Speaker 1: when you're young and find great people. There's a great
Speaker 1: Mark Twain quote that I love that I repeat all
Speaker 1: the time, and my three children could could repeat it.
Speaker 1: Readily for you. Twain said, keep away from people who
Speaker 1: try to blitterally your ambition. Small people always do that,
Speaker 1: but the group really great make you feel that you
Speaker 1: too can become great. So that's one piece of advice
Speaker 1: I give to young people. And then the second thing
Speaker 1: I say is, uh, it's a long run. You know.
Speaker 1: I hear people say to young people, now, you're so disadvantaged,
Speaker 1: such difficult time. You know, there's so much unemployment, COVID.
Speaker 1: All of that's true. But people in their twenties, if
Speaker 1: they take care of themselves and they exercise and they
Speaker 1: eat well, can live for seven or eighty years, have
Speaker 1: careers for six decades or more. People work into their
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. Now, you know, when I at law school,
Speaker 1: I was a second year law suit and there was
Speaker 1: a stock market crash like seven, and I remember somebody
Speaker 1: saying to me, and I thought they were right, it's
Speaker 1: a terrible time for us to be coming out. That
Speaker 1: was a blip. Look at we talked about it, we started,
Speaker 1: and we're asking me about the nineties. I may have
Speaker 1: come out into the best decade to come out in
Speaker 1: the last five or six or since World War Two,
Speaker 1: And yet we were fussing about the stock market crash
Speaker 1: in seven. So it's a long run. Uh, there's going
Speaker 1: to be a lot that's going to happen that you
Speaker 1: won't see, couldn't possibly see one step leading to another.
Speaker 1: So UH play it that way. Just get up every
Speaker 1: day and go after it, because it's sixty seventy years
Speaker 1: is a long time and there's a lot that's going
Speaker 1: to happen. Huh. Quite quite interesting. And our final question,
Speaker 1: what do you know about the world of finance, investment management,
Speaker 1: investment banking that you wish you knew thirty years or
Speaker 1: so ago when you were first getting started. That's a
Speaker 1: great question, Barry. Uh. What I would say is the following. Uh.
Speaker 1: I didn't think this through then. I certainly didn't act
Speaker 1: with it. But now I realized that markets, like everything,
Speaker 1: are driven by people, and therefore they're not always in
Speaker 1: the near term uh accurate or right they overshoot. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I was with uh in I had a
Speaker 1: client named uh Sanford Burdeny, which was run at the
Speaker 1: time by Loose Sanders who was the CEO, who was
Speaker 1: a great investor, and it was uh still learning an
Speaker 1: investment organization today and they were value investors, and uh,
Speaker 1: I remember saying to Lou Now I was thirty six
Speaker 1: at the time, and he was, you know, he'd been
Speaker 1: around much longer. But I was saying, you know, why
Speaker 1: don't you sprinkle in some some value internet companies or something,
Speaker 1: you know, just mix it up a little bit, because
Speaker 1: they were getting crushed on a relatives And Luc said
Speaker 1: to me, Greg, it's a bubble and it's going to pop,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't going to deviate, and ultimately he was right. So, UH,
Speaker 1: markets are also tied to human beings who get emotional,
Speaker 1: who get caught up in trends, and therefore, um, you know,
Speaker 1: they're not always going to be necessarily where a pragmatic
Speaker 1: analysis would say they should be. And if you're looking
Speaker 1: for that, you're making a mistake. You need to understand
Speaker 1: these are organic too, and I've learned that probably the
Speaker 1: hard way. Over many years we have been speaking with
Speaker 1: Greg Fleming. He is the founding CEO of rockefelleror Capital Management.
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, we'll be sure and check
Speaker 1: out all of the nearly four hundred previous interviews we've
Speaker 1: conducted over the past almost seven years. You can find
Speaker 1: that at iTunes, Spotify, a cast, Stitcher, wherever your favorite
Speaker 1: podcasts are found. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions
Speaker 1: right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 1: Be sure and check out my Daily reads at Ridholtz
Speaker 1: dot com. Look at my daily column each week at
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion. Follow me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Rid Halts. I would be remiss if I did not
Speaker 1: thank the crack staff that helps us put these conversations
Speaker 1: together each week. Reggie Brazil is my audio engineer, Michael
Speaker 1: Boyle is my producer. Atika val Bron is our project manager.
Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is my head of research. I'm Barry Rihults.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.