1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Nick, Dick and Paul Show. I am 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: one of your hosts, Nick Bilden, I was a journalist 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: for two decades and now now I'm doing this. Now 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: I'm doing this. 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: I'm Dick Costello, investor and lovable everyman. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 3: I'm Paul Kedroski. I'm not particularly lovable. Also an investor, 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 3: which is probably bad with two of us in here, 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 3: it's like one too many investors. But I worked on 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 3: Wall Street years ago for a long time and now 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 3: wander around yapping a bit. 11 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Today's episode is going to be about Davos and why 12 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: it is a complete and utter waste of fucking space 13 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: on the planet. So let's jump in, all right, So Davas. 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: So it was a few weeks back, and uh, have 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: you ever you never? Have you ever been? 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: Dick? No, No, I was. I was asked to go 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: by the people who run it World World somewhere, World Economic, 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: World Economic for them. I was asked to go when 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: I was running Twitter, and I said I couldn't go, 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: and they called me and said we really wanted to come. 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: We'll lower the fee to twenty five thousand dollars. And 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: I said, oh, I wasn't going when I thought it 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: was free, so that's really unfortunate. 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: So I went one year got it was like it 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: must have been twenty twelve or something like that, and 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: I got like a last minute invite, and I remember 27 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: I was with I was in Germany doing a talk 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: at some something there, and Cheryl Sandberg and all those 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: people were there, and they and I was and Cheryl 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm going to and and Zuck and 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: all these other people, and I was like, oh, cool, great, 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: and so I got an a taxi to go, and 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: then they got in their helicopters and flew there, which 34 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: really kind of summed up the entire experience. But I 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: remember showing up and it was literally like a video 36 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: game that was snipers on the roofs everywhere it was. 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: It was really quite a wild visual. And then it 38 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: was just I just didn't understand what the fucking point 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: of the whole thing was. And you're like shuffling from 40 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: one event to another, and like you're sitting next to 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton one minute and Uri Millner the next, and 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: everyone's talking like they're gonna solve the world problems, and 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: nothing seems to ever get done. 44 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: Here's my issue with all these things, these things being 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: liked already. Actually, actually, I'll go step further. In my mind, 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: there's very little difference between Davos and burning Man. Okay, 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: both of them are this thin veneer of were doing 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: good in the world, the you know, burning men, that's 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: this fake radical self reliance. Meanwhile, people are you know, 50 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: jetting in and having some hapless yeomen set up their 51 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: RV with a chef. And then Davas it's this thin 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: veneer of I don't know, compassionate hegemony. Right, Look, there's 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: just not really much difference at all between the top 54 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: point zero zero zero one percent and the bottom three billion. 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: And I mean one of the I wrote this down 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: one of the goals of twenty twenty six Davas was 57 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: creating creating prosperity without exceeding planetary boundaries. Yeah, I mean, 58 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: come on, first of all, I don't know, No, I 59 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: don't know. But first of all, okay, so none of 60 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: us should fly in our private jet sense. We need 61 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: to create prosperity without like burning up the planet like 62 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: whoa whoa, whoa hold hold hold on. I mean, planetary 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: boundaries can mean a lot of different things to a 64 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: lot of different people. I still am going to come 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: on like G six fifty, We're gonna do carbon off 66 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: sets later. Yeah. 67 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: The moment to me where I realized it was such hypocrisy. 68 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: I don't remember what the theme was that year, but 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: it was define very. 70 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: Upset about this way. I've sworn twice now about it. 71 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: I tend to swear a lot. My kids think I 72 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: need to swear jar or two. But the moment where 73 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: I was like, this is utterly ridiculous is we were 74 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: at some there was some talk about you know, philanthropy 75 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: and saving the world and this, that and the other, 76 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: and then there was a big party afterwards and it 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: was being I don't know who. I forget it was 78 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: a VC or something that was wrong. And I remember 79 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: one of the co hosts coming up to me and 80 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: there's like, you know, they're carving the meats that and 81 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: all these different things. This is, you know, one of 82 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: those fancy parties, and there's all this very very very 83 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: expensive wine and he and the guy says, what do 84 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: you think of the wine? And I was like, it's 85 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: great wine. He goes, we flew it in private two 86 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: weeks ago, so it wouldn't be jet lagged when it 87 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: got here. Yeah, seriously, that was a little and I 88 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: was like, wait what he goes because you know it 89 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: gets on the plane it's turbulin. So we had it 90 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: all flown in two weeks early. And it's the hypocrisy 91 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: of the whole fucking. 92 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: Thing again again, I take you to there's very little 93 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: difference between burning Man, where the booze is it's just 94 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: not expensive wine. It's you know, to keelan ketamine that's 95 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: flown in two weeks earlier, and Davas, where the wine 96 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: is flown in two weeks. 97 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: I just think, and I've been once and I only 98 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: lasted half a session. Well I think it was twenty twelve, 99 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: twenty thieves. 100 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: Really you were there at the same time. 101 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was, but I wouldn't have seen you at 102 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: the events because I was like, I don't want to 103 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: be here. And I lasted I think a session session 104 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: and a half and I went skiing and I never 105 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: went back. 106 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: What did you What was your session? 107 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 3: Something? 108 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: How to fly wine? And so it's not jel. 109 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: I don't actually remember, and I just remember thinking this 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: is excruciating and if anything, I hate this more than 111 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: I hate asphen ideas and I hate aspen ideas a lot. 112 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: So what's but here's the question. 113 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: So let me just just. 114 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: The thing that I find most interesting about it though, 115 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 3: because it's easy to kind of like dump on it 116 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: for all of the stupid excesses and all this sanctimony 117 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 3: and everything else. But like, it started off in the 118 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: weirdest possible way, right, I mean, if you know the backstory, 119 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: the backstory, this was a management conference. This was for 120 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 3: management academics to basically preach to their clients. Think of 121 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: it like a McKinsey event almost, but put on by 122 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: management consultants who work or inside of business schools and 123 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: places like that, who wanted to babble about the latest whatever. 124 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: The buzzword of the day was, you know, just in 125 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: time or reinventing the corporation or any of these things. Right, 126 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: there were the big buzzwords of the day. So it 127 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: started off in this place of Okay, I kind of 128 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: get what this is doing. It's like business development for 129 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 3: management consultants or whatever. But then Klaus whatever is yeah, 130 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 3: the founder of the event, who was involved right in 131 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 3: the very beginning, was like, I'm onto something here, right. 132 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: This is bringing in lots of people, and I need 133 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 3: more than just these lay about management consultants on stage. 134 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: Let's bring in, you know, lead politicians, let's bring in 135 00:06:58,320 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: more than academics. 136 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: So is it like him did he treat it like 137 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: beanie babies, like I'm going to make this famous? 138 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: And no, it just it's one of these weird things 139 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: that happened by completely by accident that it took off. 140 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: It was kind of doing the right thing at the 141 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: right time in the sense that all of these people 142 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: were looking for an audience. And then what really got 143 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 3: it going was I think this is just my theory, 144 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: is that in the eighties and nineties, because it started off, 145 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 3: I think it was the late seventies, in the eighties 146 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: and ninety when it really got going. It became this 147 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 3: validation place for people who wanted to believe in the 148 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: neo cons right, the neo conservatives wanted something to kind 149 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: of validate their worldview. But it also validated the worldview 150 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: of free traders, right, so when it helped sit underneath 151 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 3: all of these orthodoxies that were emerging, what do. 152 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: You mean by it validated? 153 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: Like, so it became a place where the free traders 154 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: were like, look, we're getting together and discussing global collaboration 155 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: and how we're going to operate together in this post 156 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: and there's isolationist world. 157 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: Right, and there's all these like minded spirits, and I 158 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: may have some doubts about what we're doing, like maybe 159 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: this won't trickle down to the common manage China takes 160 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 3: all the manufacturing, but wait, I have all these peers 161 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: who say this is going to work out. And so 162 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: that's in that sense it validated everything. And then it continued, right, 163 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: So it continued through across free trade and sort of 164 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 3: this emerging global consensus around that, and then I think 165 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty ten it really fell off because there 166 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: was nothing to validate anymore. They'd all agreed. It's this 167 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: old thing of like who are we fighting against? There's 168 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: no one we're fighting against. We've won. 169 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: So that's the thing Mark twenty ten did beyond the validation, 170 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: did it actually end up in results? Were there actions 171 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: that came because it seems now that nothing comes. 172 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 3: Finny nothing, but what it does the result was the 173 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: validation was this? That was it this idea that you 174 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: know what I used to be kind of a rebel 175 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 3: with this idea of global free trade or the neo 176 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: conservative worldview I was. All of that became validated because 177 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 3: I found all my peers, I found my people, I 178 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: found my tribe, and they all found each other. And 179 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: that was this mutually reinforcing cycle, which in some ways 180 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 3: led to this kind of you know, the mess we're 181 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 3: in now because all of these people entered this pond 182 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: that was and they could all you know, fish in 183 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: the same pond, and they all had the same ideas 184 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: and they were all self validating, and then on and 185 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 3: on in March, but they ran out of people to 186 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: fight against because those people didn't go to Davos, there 187 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: was no one for them to fight. And so this 188 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 3: is this old problem. Is like what you really should 189 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: do when you get to that point is shut the 190 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 3: whole thing down because we've won, right, But they don't, 191 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: and so they continue self validating. They don't see anything outside, 192 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: and you know, we end up where we are now. 193 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: The whole thing seems more than slightly ridiculous. 194 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: The one sure way to know that nothing really gets 195 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: done there now is the stories that come out of 196 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: there every year now are almost solely about the people 197 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: who couldn't get into the Salesforce party. You know, like, oh, 198 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: I saw Martin surrel waiting for a half an hour, 199 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: and he tried to explain to so and so, who 200 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: you know were insert name here. It doesn't have to 201 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: be Martin, but those are the stories you hear back. 202 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: You think like, literally, you flew across the world then 203 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: had to you know, take a train and get in 204 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: a car or in a helicopter in Mark and Cheryl's 205 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: case to get to this place where ninety five percent 206 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: or more of what everyone wants to do is get 207 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: into the X y Z party. 208 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the other piece that it creates because it's 209 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: this I don't know, uniform ecology of people thinking the 210 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 3: same thing. You eventually reached the point where it's a 211 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: good place to go to fight with those people, which 212 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 3: is what we saw this year. Certain populist politicians show 213 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: up and it's like, I'm not here to agree with 214 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: people whatsoever. I'm here to call you all. 215 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: Bad men, right and women and right. 216 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 3: On all because it's now the perfect place to go 217 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 3: to show that I don't agree with any of you people, 218 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 3: which also contributes to nothing getting done. The other argument 219 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: you hear about places like Davos, and in part it 220 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: led to a conference from a friend I think a 221 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: mutual friend. We all Dave Hornicks thing. Dave Hornicks the 222 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: lobby is kind of the response, this conference's running for yours. 223 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: That's the one in Hawaii. 224 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 3: That's the one in Hawaii. 225 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: Where it was the old By the way, I'm still 226 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: trying to remember the word you just used a minute ago. 227 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: Uniform ecology. Yeah, like that's remarkable, like plants, Yeah, we 228 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: uniform acology. 229 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: Do you every morning with a word that you're going 230 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: to use or I. 231 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: Have an app you do? 232 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: I have to? 233 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: No, I don't. 234 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: So. 235 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 3: But the idea was the defense people made of Davos 236 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: was it's you're missing the point. It's not about what 237 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: happens in the sessions. Of course, it's about what happens 238 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: in the hall of course, it's about what happens in 239 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: the dinners. 240 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: Right. 241 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 3: So this was the idea beyond. 242 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: Well, that's what that's what they said. When I was there, 243 00:11:58,760 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: that was it was like, yeah. 244 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: That's the that's the oldest defense of these kinds of events, 245 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: And it's part what gave rise to Hornick's the Lobby, 246 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: which was, let's have all the conversations that used to 247 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 3: happen in the in the hallways and the lobby and 248 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: make that the event. Well, of course, you know, in 249 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: retrospect that just became the same thing, just a different venue. 250 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 3: But nevertheless, the idea was to capture this thing that like, 251 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 3: here's what really should happen, because this is what happens 252 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: outside the event. 253 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: I love the idea of it now being a I 254 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: really want to insult the Prime Minister of Canada, but 255 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: I'm gonna wait until I can fly over to Switzerland 256 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: and insult them in front of a bunch of people. 257 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: That was my question, That's exactly that was my question. 258 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: Is like, you've got you've got so many of these conferences. 259 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: You've got Aspen and tech Crunch and this and that, 260 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: and it's like on and on and on and on 261 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: and Davos and like and it's the same people speaking 262 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: and they say the same thing and and and then 263 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: they fly halfway around the world. I just don't understand, 264 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: Like it's validation. It's literally just validation from my validation 265 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: to the next. 266 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: Totally. I need I want to feel like the things 267 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: that I feel are still unique and special and important. 268 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: And look, all my peers say it is, So let's 269 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 3: wait six months. 270 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: Why did the audiences pay to go then, just so 271 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: they can say I saw this person speak in person. 272 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 2: Did you put tech Crunch in the same. 273 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: No, it wasn't that. It wasn't that I was putting 274 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: tech Crunch in the same Well, but in some respects, 275 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: actually I would point out that that it is because 276 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: it's the same people speaking. It's like, you're no, it 277 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: is it's it's so it's and it's all you're still 278 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: you're paying three thousand dollars or seventy five thousand dollars, 279 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: which is I think what it is Davos, Now what 280 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: is it? 281 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: Now? 282 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: It's like some insane number and uh, and you're seeing 283 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: the same people, it's on the same stage. So it's like, 284 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: I just and then who's the audience? Like what it's 285 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: like a fun weekend away from your family or. 286 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 3: The Other problem with these sorts of things is they 287 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 3: actually do bring interesting people, Like this year, for example, 288 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 3: there were some really there were people there like what's 289 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: his name? Dario was from Anthropic and they had an 290 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 3: on stage conversation between him and from Deep Mind and 291 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: they're on stage and they bill it as a debate, 292 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: but that can't happen by definition. These two are never 293 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: going to debate, certainly not in a public place, and 294 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: so you end up with this kind of love in right, 295 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 3: we're on stage, they're like, I agree with you. I 296 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: agree with you even more than you agree with you. 297 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: But you're like the opposite of the debate. 298 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: But again, it goes back to this idea that these 299 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: events aren't about debated off, They're about affirmation and validation. 300 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: And I'm very worried about the future. What's going to 301 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 3: happen to jobs? I'm even more worried than you are. 302 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: You did you watch that session? 303 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: I did? 304 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: What was there anything good in it? Whether they did? 305 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: They talk about AI destroying humanity, all of that, and. 306 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: They agreed that it's very very serious. 307 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: And once we're a public company and I liquidate some 308 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: of this, I'm gonna get business. I'm going to get 309 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: cracking on that. 310 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 3: I got to start building a deep, deep bunker. But right, 311 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: I mean that's the thing though, again, is this this 312 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 3: idea of this affirmation and the kind of the ritualistic Oh, 313 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: I'm very very worried. Right, No different than the essay 314 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: that had out recently, big essay. There's many, many thousands 315 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: of words things. It's the same stuff, right, It's like this, 316 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 3: this the theater of of of showing concern. 317 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: Now, why do you say, but why do you say 318 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: they can't debate. Certainly they could debate. They could debate 319 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: on stage and talk about areas in which they do. 320 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember it's a good question because I 321 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: think it's in part because you have to keep the 322 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 3: story rolling. Right, So this the it's the theater of 323 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: saying I'm very concerned, but not concerned enough to stop fundraising. 324 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: I'm very concerned, and as you'll hear from Demis, he 325 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: is he also is concerned. He's concerned for each other 326 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: and all of you and. 327 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: All of you, and the best way to protect it 328 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 3: is to continue to invest in us who are the 329 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: most concerned. 330 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: Well, this is this was This was Alon's entire premise 331 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: for groc which was the world is going to come 332 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: to an end, and the only way you can save 333 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: it is by giving me multiple billions of dollars, right, which. 334 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: Strikes me like it's like I was making this joke. 335 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: It was like giving Edward Tenner in money because you 336 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: know the world's going to blow out with nuclear bombs, 337 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: but you should give all the money to the guy 338 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: with the biggest bomb. So Tanner, every teller was posing 339 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 3: hydrogen bombs back in the nineteen fifties. Clearly we should 340 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 3: have just focused on giving him everything he wants, right, 341 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: because that's the best way to defend us his fun 342 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 3: the guy with the biggest bomb. This is this kind 343 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: of bizarro argument. 344 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: Did you elan to ever go to Davos? 345 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: Was there this year? This year? He spoke this year? Yeah, 346 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: he spoke. 347 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 3: He was actually fairly amicable. I watched a little bit 348 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: of it because I was like, what the hell, what's 349 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: he doing? 350 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: What did he have to say anything interesting? 351 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: No, he was talking him just the same thing. 352 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: Again. 353 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 3: He's very, very concerned. But the best way too. 354 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: But if he's if he's so concerned, why is he 355 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: how many hems? He raising all this money? Once again, 356 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: But that's this is all just part of the theatric. 357 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 3: This is the theater, the theater of getting people excited. 358 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: Because this is such an important technology that it makes 359 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 3: me concerned. You should really probably invest because that's how. 360 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: Important it is. 361 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 3: It's important enough to make me concerned, right, I just 362 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: find once you start looking at it that way, all 363 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: this all to sound like, well, like theater, like just 364 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 3: a great way of demonstrating not just a little bit 365 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 3: of you know, I'm very concerned, but also that it's 366 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 3: this is such an important technology that it makes me concerned. 367 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think in twenty twelve or thirteen, 368 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: whenever I was there, the concern was social media, and 369 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: then I was raising more money for social media companies. 370 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: Dick was not there, so he didn't need money, right, 371 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: But that that was why Cheryl was there, and that 372 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: was why Eric Schmidt and all those guys were there 373 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: at the same time. 374 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and same theatrics, same theatrics, same concern, But it 375 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 3: isn't it wasn't concerned like we should shut it all down. 376 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: It's concerned that let's you know, validate my concern and 377 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,239 Speaker 3: then we are the people who can solve the problem. Right, 378 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: We'll get us, get all get together, be concerned together 379 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 3: and solve the problem here. Like this year was NonStop 380 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 3: AI stuff, which was just remarkable to see, Like in 381 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: terms of I was scanning through the program and what 382 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: have you and like with you know, not just amideo 383 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: and Hissabus and and Elon Musk, but it was like 384 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 3: endless other people like you've all Harari was there, which 385 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 3: was Harari was like going right off, because one of 386 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: his things is that we're losing control of language, we're 387 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: losing control of what it is to be uniquely human. 388 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: And so he gave Sesson. He did a session entirely 389 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: about this, where basically for the first twenty minutes he said, 390 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 3: you're all just completely fucked, my friends, this is this 391 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: is a really bad situation you found yourselves in. And 392 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: then there was a Q and A where they where 393 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 3: they essentially ignored everything he had already said. And at 394 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 3: the end of everyone's like, this. 395 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: Was terrific. 396 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 3: Doom, I love this, doom, bring it off. This this 397 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: validation crossed with just enough concern to make me think 398 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 3: this in technology is important, I better invest in it. 399 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: Did you watch any of it? 400 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: Deck, No, I watched the you know, like most things 401 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: in life, I just watched the highlights, you know, would. 402 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 3: You watch them light the flame? 403 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: It was good. 404 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 3: Oh that's a different. 405 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: Difference, that's a different a different one. 406 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's That's the thing that I think people 407 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 3: don't realize is how much of it. It's not just 408 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 3: an echo chamber. It's not just that you'll always see, 409 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: you know, pick a, pick a speaker, Scott Galloway or 410 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: someone else always there. It's what this this rolling affirmation 411 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: is all about. It's letting people go through this ritualistic 412 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 3: business of validating their point, their reviews, finding kindred spirits, 413 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: and then continuing on doing what they were doing. 414 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: Anyway, I did have a one funny moment when I 415 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: was there that was not about doom. Uh it was 416 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: didn't used to be about doom. Well, there's always I 417 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: think it's everything's about doom. But there was a dinner 418 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: that was held by the Israeli Prime minister at the time, 419 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: and I got invited to it because you just get 420 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: invited about all these silly things. And and so I 421 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: go to the dinner and uh, it's this room and 422 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: there's all these different, uh like circular tables everywhere, and uh, and. 423 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: The probably the Israeli Prime minister at the time. 424 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: Press okay, and and the and so there's all these 425 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, fancy people there and everything. And I had 426 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: been I'd spent time with Cheryl in uh In in 427 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: Germany and in California and San Francisco whatever. We know 428 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: each other. We're chatting the whole time, and I would 429 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: see in the whole. Anyway, she came in late and 430 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: there was I there was a seat available next to me, 431 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: and I was like, hey, Cheryl, Cheryl, there's a seat, 432 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: and she was looking around. 433 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: Porn Nick, I know how this story is. 434 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, literally, like I wasn't there. She had no idea 435 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: I existed. There was a human in the seat next 436 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: to me, and she lit and then she literally had 437 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: them get a chair and move her closer to uh, 438 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: to who she wanted to be next to you. 439 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's again though, I mean, that's part of 440 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: the process of these things is everybody's looking for you know, 441 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: I can't be seen with the wrong people. I have 442 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 3: to be seen with the right people. Doesn't matter whether 443 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: what party I'm at or where I'm seating and everything else. 444 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 3: But again, that's all about, you know, tribes and validation 445 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 3: and all that. As soon as you look at it 446 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: and those terms, Davil starts to make I mean a 447 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 3: lot of it's very expensive. It makes a lot of 448 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: expensive sense. The tribes, they want to find each other, 449 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 3: and it becomes even more important now where everything else 450 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: is sort of mediated online and so it's like these 451 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 3: are the only opportunities, these people have to hang out 452 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 3: invalidate each other, which it seems ridiculous, but that's what's 453 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: going on. Nothing else of there matters, I don't think, 454 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 3: and it's true about most of these kinds of events. 455 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: What's funny to me is that there's still this I'll 456 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 2: go back to what I said up front, there's this 457 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: veneer of we're getting together to figure out how to 458 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: help the other eight billion people on the planet. No, 459 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: you're not, like there's not even not even a you know, 460 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: there's not even three open spots at Benioff's Salesforce party 461 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: for the bottom three billion, right, there's not even like 462 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: a table for them with four dollars seats, Like they're 463 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: not invited. And it's the same nonsense as is Burning 464 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: Man Radical self reliance, Like, hey man, maybe you're not 465 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: up on current events, like Eric Schmidt flew in a 466 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: guy brought and drove his RV in here and plugged 467 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: it into the electrical grid, and as chef was here 468 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: three days earlier, making Orzo. There's no radical self reliance. 469 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: Didn't you go to Burning Man for like an hour? 470 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? 471 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a disaster, right, yeah? 472 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: Is it? 473 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 4: First of all, it's really dirty that's really this may 474 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 4: sounds nice, it was, this makes sound obvious, but it 475 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 4: turns out. 476 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 3: Spoiler, it's in the desert. 477 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: It turns out the desert it's filthy. Who knew? Yeah, 478 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 2: it's just grin, grit and grime and everything. And then 479 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: you compare that to you know that you're add onto that. 480 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: People running around on you know whatever, they're on for 481 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: forty eight hours straight without it's just crazy. 482 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. 483 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: Was Wasn't there a murder there this year? 484 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? There was a murder there last year? 485 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: Last year? Yeah, murder, Like did they find the murderer? 486 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, but there was a what you get 487 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: so defensive, you'll want you'll. 488 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: Watch Davos, you keep up on murders. 489 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a guy who was killed on the 490 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: last night. And that's why I like stabbed and I 491 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: don't think they found who stabbed them. So you know, 492 00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: these people. 493 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: Are one second? Did they did they find out who 494 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: stabbed him? I was fascinated. I thought it would be 495 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: it was a great murder. 496 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: I mean, okay, burning Man, true crime. Let's just let's 497 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: new podcast. Let's discuss for a second. 498 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: We're going to get listeners. 499 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 2: Hold on if you're gonna kill someone, the place to 500 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: do it would be in the desert with ten thousand 501 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 2: other people, all of whom are on crazy drugs and psychedelics, 502 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: running around, bumping into each other and lighting things on fire. 503 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 504 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: Oh they didn't catch the person. See exactly perfect murder. 505 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: We'll talk about it on the Burning Man True crime podcast. 506 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: But I remember seeing it thinking to myself, like, what 507 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: a great idea. 508 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: Okay, what if? 509 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: What if? To bring my analogy full circle. So when 510 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: someone's murdered a Dobos next year, they haven't the salesforce party. 511 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: The problem is there's too many, there's too many snipers 512 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: and guys were gone. 513 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 2: All right, don't don't cloud you know. 514 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: The other the other Just to bring it back to 515 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 3: Davis for more, it almost died murder anymore died. It 516 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 3: almost dies. But this year probably wouldn't have happened because, 517 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: uh it was. It was kind of going into a 518 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: bit of a death stile for a bunch of reasons. 519 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: But then there were some allegations with respect to the 520 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 3: founder and some issues with respect to financing and allegations 521 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: that's on the other podcast. So uh no financially no 522 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: financial final stuff, and so it looked like it probably 523 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: wasn't going to come off, and so Larry Fink, the 524 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: CEO of I always getting my blacks mixed. 525 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: I can never remember which one is which either. I 526 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: think he's black Rock. 527 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 3: He's black Rock, right. He put this thing on his 528 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 3: and basically ran through his whole contact list and said, 529 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: you know, here'm I'm driving this this year. I'm going 530 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: to be one of the main interviewers. It was almost 531 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 3: like the Milkin Institute event annual Milkin conference here in 532 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 3: LA that Mike Milkin drives. Larry basically turned this into 533 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 3: the Milk and Institute conference, but with him driving it. 534 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: Observation about that. 535 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 3: Which was crazy. Otherwise this I really believe this year 536 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: it wouldn't have happened. Wouldn't have happened. That's that's how 537 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: far we've sort of devolved from where Davos was. It's 538 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: gone from validation to a faintly farcicle for most of 539 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 3: the people even would have attended until Larry took it 540 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 3: over and just drove it. 541 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: This year. Here's my Larry think observation. A horrible hair 542 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: dye job. He looks like a he looks like an 543 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 2: Irish setter. What are you doing. 544 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: That's exactly what it looks like. 545 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: Hey man, you're like seventy. You don't have That's not 546 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: the color of your hair. 547 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 3: Or at least it's not in those varying hues that 548 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: I see. 549 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: Hold on just one thing I will I did see 550 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: from from this year's Davos was did you see Larry interviewing? 551 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: I didn't. 552 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 3: He did a ton of sessions. 553 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: I saw your president is a present prime minister? What 554 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: would your is? 555 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 2: What's the Canadian Oh my gosh, this is the mistake 556 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 2: that the American Americans made. 557 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: Prime minister same same same system as the UK PM. 558 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: I saw your Westminster parliamentary he get wait, he gave 559 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: a fantastic speech. You didn't like it. 560 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: I thought we were not going to talk about politics. 561 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: We're not. No. I just thought it was a good speech. 562 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: It is fine. 563 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: Well he pissed off Donald. So I thought it was 564 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: a good speech. I thought it was I thought it 565 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: was eloquent. I thought it was smart. I thought he 566 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: had a great anecdote, Like he spoke French. He spoke French. 567 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: He had been speaking French. But that's with French. 568 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: You have to do that. By the way, if you 569 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: open with French. That's very impressive. 570 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, people right away are like pretty good, and that's 571 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: what he's talking about. It gave it till the end 572 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: where people is not an Irish. 573 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: Mark Carney is an interesting guy. He's a central banker type, 574 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 3: so he's a little bit gray. But I mean he's 575 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 3: The strange thing with Carney is he's not particularly popular 576 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 3: in Canada. So this idea, once again, it was kind 577 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 3: of like the old Justin Trudeau phenomenon where he was 578 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 3: phenomenally popular for a while outside of the US and 579 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 3: profoundly or outside of Canada and profoundly unpopular in Canada 580 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 3: and everyone was like, what why, it's everyone else in 581 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 3: the world so fond of this guy. And so Carne 582 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 3: is a little bit like that, like his China trade mission, 583 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: which was he was on his way back from the 584 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: China Trade mission whenever he popped up at Davos, and 585 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: that was wasn't particularly well received in Canada at the 586 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: same time. So you know, I think the speech and 587 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: everything else, I just didn't make My take on that 588 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 3: kind of thing is I'm not sure what you're trying 589 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 3: to accomplish here, like other than just raising the temperature 590 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 3: and making things a lot more agitated than were before. 591 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: There's no good outcome that comes of this. It's not 592 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: like everyone bands together and puts Mark Carney on their shoulders, Hurrah, Hurrah, 593 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 3: huzza Carneiebrales and all these leaders band together. It's more like, yeah, 594 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 3: I kind of like what he said, but don't quote 595 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: me on that, right, And so this it doesn't accomplish 596 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 3: anything in terms of trying to settle all of the 597 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 3: many flashpoints that are out there. So I, you know, 598 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: it's a fine speech. I just don't know why you bought. 599 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: I like the idea that next year it's just people 600 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: getting in line too. I'd like to insult these following 601 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: nations after him. 602 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's which it turns out though. 603 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: And then you know there's someone like Moldova who's like, hey, 604 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: how come nobody insults up? What does it go over here? 605 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: Rubbing two sticks together? Yeah? 606 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 3: What does the guy have to do to get some attention? 607 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: Here? 608 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 3: Who've done a lot of offensive. 609 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: We have rich history of offensive acts. 610 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, get in line, buddy. 611 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: What was there anything that came out of the conference 612 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: that you thought actually does affect AI or humanity in 613 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: the future or is it just. 614 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 3: I just think of it as this rolling consensus. So 615 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: the rolling consensus back in the eighties and nineties was 616 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 3: about neo cons and sort of the way that we 617 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 3: should use military and service of trade. And then the 618 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: rolling consensus was about global free trade, which led to 619 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 3: some of many of the issues we're seeing today. Now, 620 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: the rolling consensus is AI is electricity, but just a 621 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 3: little more dangerous. And that's that's interesting, right, I mean, 622 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: that's that's a really interesting consensus because the only thing 623 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: you can usually say about Davos is they reach agreement 624 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: always by accident and generally wrong. So they're wrong. So 625 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 3: the question is in which way are they wrong? Is 626 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: it much more is it much more serious? And the 627 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: way they're characterizing is it that it's just you know, 628 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: a frothy moment, which strikes me as unlikely. But nevertheless, 629 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 3: that consensus was as uniform as anything I've seen back 630 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 3: to the free trading. 631 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: Days there and there's nothing that comes out of this. 632 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: So so it's like we're looking, I understand, but what's 633 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: the next steps? So for example, they're. 634 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: Talking their next step is to have it again next year. 635 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 3: That's right. At twenty five, thou I guess it's gone up. Yeah, 636 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: that's the next It's no, it's no next just. 637 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: Looking for something here, No, there is, there isn't. 638 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: That's that's the whole thing. There is no next step. 639 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: So they might like go back and say, oh, well, 640 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: we should really start preparing for when AI takes all 641 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,239 Speaker 1: of the jobs in India or we or when we 642 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: all get killed by some bio. 643 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: No, you have to think. 644 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 3: About it like like like almost like a biological podcast. 645 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 3: Really no, you have to think about like a biological system. Right, 646 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 3: It's just it comes to there's there's a bunch of 647 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 3: stressors in the environment. It kind of evolves in response 648 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 3: to the stressors. It's not a thoughtful process and out 649 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 3: the other end either the you know, the the biological 650 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 3: thing you know, dies, thrives, whatever. But it's not through 651 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 3: some thoughtful thing. It's just the it's the That's what's 652 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 3: worth observing is the system has gone past the consensus 653 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: about neocon, it's gone past the consensus about free trade. 654 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 3: And if there's a new consensus about it now, it's 655 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: not that suddenly there's going to be here are the 656 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 3: seven action items that we should do. That's a naive 657 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 3: way of. 658 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: Thinking thesus right now is AI. 659 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: The consensus right now is that AIS utility, it's electricity, 660 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 3: it's it's the fourth Industrial Revolution, it's you know, take 661 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: your pick of whatever model you want. That's remarkable because 662 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 3: there was never that kind of consensus, even about dot 663 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 3: com back in the days, whenever that was was being highlighted. 664 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 3: So this, this consensus, rivals the one around free trade, 665 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 3: rivals around and neo conservatives. Nothing else has reached that 666 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 3: level of consensus at an event. 667 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: Like and and there's this protective layer of I told 668 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: you to take it seriously, which they will look back 669 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: gone ten years fromgo see I was up there. I 670 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: told you to take it seriously. That's right. 671 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: It's this sort of what's that this Nixonian plausible deniability, right, 672 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 3: plausible dude, you weren't listening, Yeah, I said all of this, 673 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: although I will give seriously, if you go back and 674 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: watch one thing, watch Yuva Harari's talk, it's really great. 675 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: And what is in the premises Essentially. 676 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 3: We've lost control of language, languages what makes us human? 677 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: Rescrewed? 678 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: Well, how we lost control of language. 679 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 2: Because this tool, these tools seated it to these tools. 680 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 3: That's right, These tools can and we'll always will continue 681 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 3: to do language better than the media and human. 682 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: And then what is what is his theory on what 683 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: the result of that. 684 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: Is is that anything that involves any coded language will 685 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 3: become the responsibility of the machines and we'll barely be caretakers. 686 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter whether it's in entertainment or in literature, 687 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 3: or in business or in religion. He loves to talk 688 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 3: about that all of these different domains where you lose 689 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 3: control of language, where language was fundamental to it, and 690 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 3: now we no longer can compete, We've got no mote anymore. 691 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 3: Will all of those will be seated to large. 692 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 2: Language molds and the resultant the outcome as a result 693 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: of that is poof no. You know, once there's there 694 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: are no there's no need for us anymore, and. 695 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: You get into this like our robots say fine, Then 696 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 3: the next step then is okay, corporations are people for 697 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 3: tax purposes? Are robots are models? Why aren't they? If 698 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 3: these things are people, then okay, fine. If they are, 699 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: what rights do they have? And how can we stop 700 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: this product? You can't anymore if you follow the same model. 701 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: Well, it's like what Daria said, in his letter where 702 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: he said, we don't know if claude an anthropic is 703 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: conscious and has feelings, and so better to be saved 704 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: than sorry and be nice to it just in case. 705 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what next year's Davas is gonna be. We're 706 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: gonna go and insult the robots. 707 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 3: I heart my robot, right, yeah, but that's so, that's 708 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: so in terms of next steps, that's the that's that 709 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 3: was Harari's point was that expect this proliferation of religions. 710 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 3: Expect this proliferation of all of these things that used 711 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: to once have a moat because they were human dominated 712 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 3: that are no longer. And that's across everything from hedge 713 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 3: funds to religion to businesses. 714 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: But can you for the for the listener, can you 715 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: kind of play out maybe both of you guys can 716 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: do this, but play out like what how this actually 717 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: you said poof Dick, but like what what is like? 718 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: Well, no more people like sit here? 719 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well why wouldn't we because someone needs to speak 720 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: at Davas. 721 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 3: I'm not convinced about that. 722 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 723 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: Nevertheless, Yeah, I don't think I just don't the idea 724 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 3: that Okay, so we've always had the idea that humans 725 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 3: didn't matter, that we weren't good at everything, like I don't. 726 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: It doesn't really trouble me at night that I can't 727 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 3: run faster than a cheetah. Right, And so the argument 728 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 3: will make is say this is nothing new, the idea 729 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 3: that I can't outthink a large language model, I can't 730 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: write an essay better than the models can, or pick 731 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: your domain. Okay, that doesn't really matter anymore than I 732 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: can outrun a cheetah. But that's a huge difference because fundamentally, 733 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 3: cognition is what makes is what makes us human. So 734 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 3: outrunning speech at cheetahs is not what makes people uniquely 735 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: human and therefore is part of our self identity losing that. 736 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: But building a machine that we can outrun cheaters with 737 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: is what makes us human. No, well, yes, I mean 738 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: we build cars and bikes and things like that so 739 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: we can outrun, sure. 740 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 3: But that notion of inventing things is also something we're 741 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 3: losing control of, right. We're seeing that in drugs, in pharmaceuticals, 742 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 3: so that if you even come at it from that angle, 743 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 3: we also lose control of that. 744 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: Right. 745 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 3: So this idea that any of these domains that we 746 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 3: used to kind of fall back on and say, yeah, 747 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 3: but they can't do this or they can't those are 748 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 3: all falling away because we've lost control of language. And 749 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 3: that's that's in essence, the horrory argument. And it's much 750 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 3: more interesting than just you know, it's going to be 751 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 3: better at inventing drugs than we are. It's it's they're 752 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 3: going to be inventing religion and they're going to be 753 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: invented and all of these sorts of things are inevitable, 754 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 3: right I mean, so they asked him, the interviewer asked him, 755 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: and I think it was what the woman from the 756 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 3: economists asked him. So this old gotcha game of well, 757 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 3: what's superintelligence to you? Which just makes you want to 758 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 3: punch people in the face, right, I mean, because it's 759 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 3: one of those definitional games. What does this actually mean? 760 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 3: And he's and he, to his credit. 761 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: Super intelligence to me as someone saying the word uniform ecology. 762 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 3: I like to think of myself as the first age 763 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 3: you shure you what you are alien Paul intelligence. So 764 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 3: he came back and he said the A G, A 765 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 3: GI or super intelligence in this context is and this 766 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 3: was part of his speech at Davos. He said it's 767 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 3: going to be when the first models, UH can create 768 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 3: a company that generates millions and billions of dollars, so 769 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 3: it can generate a profitable on its own with no 770 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 3: human involvement. 771 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: And we're heading down that path of course, very fast, right. 772 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: I think the logical conclusion of Harari is talking. It'd 773 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: be interesting to see if he believes this says, once 774 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: you lose control of what makes you human, that's an 775 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: extinction level action. 776 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it because people have become unmoored right when 777 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 3: you when you can, when you don't any need to 778 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 3: believe and you believe in anything, these kinds of problems 779 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 3: right because nothing is sort of uniquely human anymore. And 780 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 3: that's I find that part of his argument, and it 781 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: really interest As I said, he spoke twice at Dolls 782 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 3: and both of those for me, the rest of the 783 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 3: events disposable. But that was really interesting because I think in. 784 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 2: Ten years the second Talkie gave was on his protein 785 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: bar startup. I think that one had a lot more attending. 786 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 3: I only got part way through. That was good because 787 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 3: I was like, if you've seen him, it's like it's 788 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 3: clearly not working. He's a really skinny guy. Anyways, I 789 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 3: just that kind of stuff I think is the stuff 790 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 3: that we'll look back and say, you know, I was 791 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 3: kind of weird he didn't say these things. Why was 792 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 3: nobody paying attention to this? 793 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: Wait, Dick, do you really believe it's this is an 794 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: extinction level level event? 795 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 2: I'm saying it's the logical conclusion of Harari's argument. If 796 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: you lose control of what makes you human, it's an 797 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: and there is nothing left that makes you uniquely human. 798 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: That's a biologically and evolutionarily, there's no need for you anymore. 799 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, And humans don't respond well to that, right, because 800 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 5: kind of you lose you start drifting, You lose reasons 801 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 5: for believing that anything that progress is a thing, and 802 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 5: so on, because you've lost control of the narrative itself. 803 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 2: Right. 804 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: I was talking to someone who works in defense and 805 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: they were talking about, you know, all of the new 806 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: the drone warfare and so on and so forth, And 807 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: what they were saying is, when you get to a 808 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: point where the it's robots versus robots, no one gives 809 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: a shit anymore. Right, There's no, there's no It's not like, oh, 810 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: I have a million drones and you have a billion 811 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: and so what's happening is it's moving to this new 812 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: kind of warfare where you're going to start to target 813 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: the leadership and try to take them out and that's 814 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: how you win, which we saw kind of Venezuela in 815 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: some respects. And it feels like the end result of 816 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: this is if we do feel like we are at 817 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: an extinction level event, that that we go after the 818 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: sam Altman's of the world and people like that. 819 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: Right. 820 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: No, I'm just saying I'm saying, like this wondering where 821 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: you're going with that, but like you invite into burning Man. 822 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 3: So carp kind of Alex Carved from Palenteer not everyone's 823 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: got the tea. Talked a little bit about this ebisode. 824 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 3: I only made it like halfway through his thing. 825 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: It feels like you watched the entire. 826 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 3: Four things. So the tri is the debate and then 827 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 3: and then this Carve thing. Carp I mostly hate watched because. 828 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: I actually, I actually think he's a very smart guy. 829 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 3: He's a very smart guy. It's just it's his hair and. 830 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: What kind of dog does he look like, Dick, It 831 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: looks like a poodle, A poodle poodle, Yeah. 832 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 3: I said, it looks like through for how what from 833 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 3: the first Doune movie. He's got this dry and eyebrows 834 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 3: in the big hair. Anyways, he he talks. I thought fairly, 835 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 3: uh yeah, elusively about that whole what was thing just 836 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 3: exactly the same thing that we're kind of that this 837 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 3: bought versus bot warfare is taking this in a direction 838 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 3: where it's it doesn't mean anything anymore whenever you've just 839 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 3: got the sort of autonomous thing versus autonomous thing, uh 840 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 3: fighting each other on the battlefield. And I think that's 841 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 3: I think that's largely the case. And there's actually a 842 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 3: great Star Trek episode about that, if people want to 843 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 3: go back to the original Star Trek where there was 844 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 3: like they where they were having this push button war 845 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 3: for two societies decided it was too bloody to actually 846 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 3: fight each other, so they're having a push button war 847 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 3: where they have autonomous computer to computer battles going on, 848 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 3: and it was completely bloodless and fine. Of course, they 849 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 3: just went after the leadership themselves. 850 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: So they've played out. And then was. 851 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: There first my friend? 852 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: And did the societies go extinct? After this? 853 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 3: William Shatner talked computer and exploding, as he was prone to. 854 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: Do so on that note, I think we can. We 855 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: can wrap up our Davos reenactment here any anything anyone 856 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: wants to add. 857 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 2: I'm in for twenty five k on the protein bar 858 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: protein bar. 859 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 3: I want to see some I want to see him 860 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 3: take more funds. It's clearly not working at current dosage. 861 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: And that's been another episode of the Nick, Dick and 862 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: Paul Show. Tune in next week for more fun about 863 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: not Davos, but something really bad and daunting and terrifying. 864 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: Thanks guys,