Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every
Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most
Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more
Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud
Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's going to
Speaker 1: be a very tough few days for Paul Manaford. He'll
Speaker 1: be sentenced on March eighth in Virginia, where jurors convicted
Speaker 1: him of tax and bank fraud, and then sentenced five
Speaker 1: days later in d C on two conspiracy counts he
Speaker 1: pleaded to and the Special Council filed a no holds
Speaker 1: barred sentencing memo, telling the judge that President Trump's former
Speaker 1: campaign chairman brazenly violated the law for a decade and
Speaker 1: presents a grave risk of committing new crimes. Joining me
Speaker 1: is Robert Mints of former federal prosecutor and a partner
Speaker 1: mcarter in English, Bob, what did Muller highlight in the
Speaker 1: sentencing memo? Well, he really painted a very damning picture
Speaker 1: of Paul manaforts con duct over the last ten years,
Speaker 1: really asking the judge to throw the book at him.
Speaker 1: For somebody who has simply flouted US laws for more
Speaker 1: than a decade in a variety of schemes that all
Speaker 1: ultimately inenored his financial benefit. Explain the mess that Manifort
Speaker 1: got himself into by agreeing to plead and then lying well.
Speaker 1: He went to trial in Virginia and was ultimately convicted
Speaker 1: on aid counts. There After that he was facing similar
Speaker 1: charges in Washington, d c. And he decided instead of
Speaker 1: going to trial to enter a guilty plea and to
Speaker 1: cooperate with the Muller investigation. After agreeing to cooperate with
Speaker 1: the Muller investigation, he apparently lied to federal prosecutors repeatedly,
Speaker 1: causing Mueller to go to court and ask that the
Speaker 1: cooperation deal be tossed out, and the judge actually had
Speaker 1: to hold a hearing on that and determine whether or
Speaker 1: not Manaford had lied. Judge found that he did throughout
Speaker 1: the cooperation deal. And now Manafort is facing up to
Speaker 1: twenty four years in prison. So this will be a
Speaker 1: virtual life sentence. A presidential pardon, many say, his only
Speaker 1: way out, but prosecutors in Manhattan are putting together a
Speaker 1: criminal case against Manifort just in case there's a pardon
Speaker 1: explain how they'll get around double jeopardy laws. Well, that's
Speaker 1: a very interesting question, June, because the dual sovereignty doctrine
Speaker 1: allows for different sovereigns to prosecute someone for essentially the
Speaker 1: same crimes. So, in other words, if you commit a
Speaker 1: crime and are are convicted under federal law, the state
Speaker 1: can actually go after you for a basically the same offense.
Speaker 1: New York, however, has a state law which makes it
Speaker 1: much more difficult to get around that double jeopardy issue.
Speaker 1: So what prosecutors in Manhattan have apparently done as they
Speaker 1: put together charges that don't completely overlap with the charges
Speaker 1: that Mueller was investigating. So in the event that there
Speaker 1: is a presidential pardon, they believe that their charges, which
Speaker 1: would involve state tax law claims as opposed to federal
Speaker 1: for example, that would include charges regarding false books and
Speaker 1: record keeping in connection with certain loans, that those would
Speaker 1: be independent and would be able to stand up to
Speaker 1: a challenge along double jeopardy lines. But will the courts
Speaker 1: let these charges stand? Well, it really will depend on
Speaker 1: the facts, uh, and we don't know all those facts
Speaker 1: at this point, but certainly the prosecutors in the Manhattan
Speaker 1: DA's office are aware what they have to do to
Speaker 1: put together an independent case. And generally, when someone who
Speaker 1: has has committed such a broad array of crimes and
Speaker 1: so much criminal conduct, someone like Paul manafor it, it's
Speaker 1: not that difficult for prosecutors to find independent and different
Speaker 1: crimes than the one that Mueller went after. Now Mueller
Speaker 1: is close to closing his report, if there are no
Speaker 1: other indictments forthcoming, what could states do to indict any
Speaker 1: of those who have been connected in the report. Well,
Speaker 1: anybody who's not been charged are fair game for state
Speaker 1: prosecutors if state laws have been violated. So I think
Speaker 1: we could certainly see the possibility of state ages in
Speaker 1: different jurisdictions taking a look at those individuals. Typically, what
Speaker 1: will happen is state prosecutors will stand down, as they did,
Speaker 1: for example, in Manhattan against Paul Mantafort, when they know
Speaker 1: there's a federal investigation going on. They'll defer to federal
Speaker 1: prosecutors who have broader jurisdiction and sometimes better tools to
Speaker 1: go after these crimes. But once federal prosecutors decide not
Speaker 1: to pursue them, state prosecutors will certainly take a fresh
Speaker 1: look at these allegations and see if they can bring
Speaker 1: charges on state grounds. Do you think that at this
Speaker 1: point there are not going to be any smoking guns
Speaker 1: there that some people might be disappointed in what's in
Speaker 1: the report? Well, you know that. I mean, obviously that's
Speaker 1: the ten million dollar question. It's it's hard to say
Speaker 1: what Mueller has is going to including this report. He's
Speaker 1: been working at this for quite a while. It's hard
Speaker 1: to imagine that after all this time, there's not gonna
Speaker 1: be something in there that is going to be of consequence.
Speaker 1: And it really will depend on ultimately whether it amounts
Speaker 1: to a criminal violation, and even if it doesn't, whether
Speaker 1: it's so damning politically that it's ultimately moves Democrats in
Speaker 1: the House to seek impeachment. Thanks so much, Bob. That's
Speaker 1: Robert Minzi is a former federal prosecutor and a partner
Speaker 1: in McCarter and English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show
Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg