WEBVTT - New York Plans Pardon-proof Case Against Manafort

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a very tough few days for Paul Manaford. He'll

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<v Speaker 1>be sentenced on March eighth in Virginia, where jurors convicted

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<v Speaker 1>him of tax and bank fraud, and then sentenced five

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<v Speaker 1>days later in d C on two conspiracy counts he

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<v Speaker 1>pleaded to and the Special Council filed a no holds

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<v Speaker 1>barred sentencing memo, telling the judge that President Trump's former

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<v Speaker 1>campaign chairman brazenly violated the law for a decade and

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<v Speaker 1>presents a grave risk of committing new crimes. Joining me

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<v Speaker 1>is Robert Mints of former federal prosecutor and a partner

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<v Speaker 1>mcarter in English, Bob, what did Muller highlight in the

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<v Speaker 1>sentencing memo? Well, he really painted a very damning picture

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<v Speaker 1>of Paul manaforts con duct over the last ten years,

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<v Speaker 1>really asking the judge to throw the book at him.

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<v Speaker 1>For somebody who has simply flouted US laws for more

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<v Speaker 1>than a decade in a variety of schemes that all

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately inenored his financial benefit. Explain the mess that Manifort

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<v Speaker 1>got himself into by agreeing to plead and then lying well.

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<v Speaker 1>He went to trial in Virginia and was ultimately convicted

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<v Speaker 1>on aid counts. There After that he was facing similar

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<v Speaker 1>charges in Washington, d c. And he decided instead of

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<v Speaker 1>going to trial to enter a guilty plea and to

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<v Speaker 1>cooperate with the Muller investigation. After agreeing to cooperate with

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<v Speaker 1>the Muller investigation, he apparently lied to federal prosecutors repeatedly,

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<v Speaker 1>causing Mueller to go to court and ask that the

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<v Speaker 1>cooperation deal be tossed out, and the judge actually had

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<v Speaker 1>to hold a hearing on that and determine whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not Manaford had lied. Judge found that he did throughout

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<v Speaker 1>the cooperation deal. And now Manafort is facing up to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four years in prison. So this will be a

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<v Speaker 1>virtual life sentence. A presidential pardon, many say, his only

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<v Speaker 1>way out, but prosecutors in Manhattan are putting together a

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<v Speaker 1>criminal case against Manifort just in case there's a pardon

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<v Speaker 1>explain how they'll get around double jeopardy laws. Well, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a very interesting question, June, because the dual sovereignty doctrine

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<v Speaker 1>allows for different sovereigns to prosecute someone for essentially the

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<v Speaker 1>same crimes. So, in other words, if you commit a

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<v Speaker 1>crime and are are convicted under federal law, the state

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<v Speaker 1>can actually go after you for a basically the same offense.

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<v Speaker 1>New York, however, has a state law which makes it

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<v Speaker 1>much more difficult to get around that double jeopardy issue.

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<v Speaker 1>So what prosecutors in Manhattan have apparently done as they

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<v Speaker 1>put together charges that don't completely overlap with the charges

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<v Speaker 1>that Mueller was investigating. So in the event that there

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<v Speaker 1>is a presidential pardon, they believe that their charges, which

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<v Speaker 1>would involve state tax law claims as opposed to federal

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<v Speaker 1>for example, that would include charges regarding false books and

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<v Speaker 1>record keeping in connection with certain loans, that those would

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<v Speaker 1>be independent and would be able to stand up to

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<v Speaker 1>a challenge along double jeopardy lines. But will the courts

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<v Speaker 1>let these charges stand? Well, it really will depend on

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<v Speaker 1>the facts, uh, and we don't know all those facts

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<v Speaker 1>at this point, but certainly the prosecutors in the Manhattan

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<v Speaker 1>DA's office are aware what they have to do to

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<v Speaker 1>put together an independent case. And generally, when someone who

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<v Speaker 1>has has committed such a broad array of crimes and

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<v Speaker 1>so much criminal conduct, someone like Paul manafor it, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not that difficult for prosecutors to find independent and different

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<v Speaker 1>crimes than the one that Mueller went after. Now Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>is close to closing his report, if there are no

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<v Speaker 1>other indictments forthcoming, what could states do to indict any

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<v Speaker 1>of those who have been connected in the report. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>anybody who's not been charged are fair game for state

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutors if state laws have been violated. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>we could certainly see the possibility of state ages in

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<v Speaker 1>different jurisdictions taking a look at those individuals. Typically, what

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<v Speaker 1>will happen is state prosecutors will stand down, as they did,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, in Manhattan against Paul Mantafort, when they know

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<v Speaker 1>there's a federal investigation going on. They'll defer to federal

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutors who have broader jurisdiction and sometimes better tools to

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<v Speaker 1>go after these crimes. But once federal prosecutors decide not

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<v Speaker 1>to pursue them, state prosecutors will certainly take a fresh

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<v Speaker 1>look at these allegations and see if they can bring

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<v Speaker 1>charges on state grounds. Do you think that at this

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<v Speaker 1>point there are not going to be any smoking guns

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<v Speaker 1>there that some people might be disappointed in what's in

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<v Speaker 1>the report? Well, you know that. I mean, obviously that's

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<v Speaker 1>the ten million dollar question. It's it's hard to say

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<v Speaker 1>what Mueller has is going to including this report. He's

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<v Speaker 1>been working at this for quite a while. It's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to imagine that after all this time, there's not gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be something in there that is going to be of consequence.

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<v Speaker 1>And it really will depend on ultimately whether it amounts

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<v Speaker 1>to a criminal violation, and even if it doesn't, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's so damning politically that it's ultimately moves Democrats in

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<v Speaker 1>the House to seek impeachment. Thanks so much, Bob. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Minzi is a former federal prosecutor and a partner

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<v Speaker 1>in McCarter and English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

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<v Speaker 1>on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg