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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be a very tough few days for Paul Manaford. He'll

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Speaker 1: be sentenced on March eighth in Virginia, where jurors convicted

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Speaker 1: him of tax and bank fraud, and then sentenced five

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Speaker 1: days later in d C on two conspiracy counts he

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Speaker 1: pleaded to and the Special Council filed a no holds

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Speaker 1: barred sentencing memo, telling the judge that President Trump's former

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Speaker 1: campaign chairman brazenly violated the law for a decade and

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Speaker 1: presents a grave risk of committing new crimes. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Robert Mints of former federal prosecutor and a partner

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Speaker 1: mcarter in English, Bob, what did Muller highlight in the

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Speaker 1: sentencing memo? Well, he really painted a very damning picture

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Speaker 1: of Paul manaforts con duct over the last ten years,

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Speaker 1: really asking the judge to throw the book at him.

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Speaker 1: For somebody who has simply flouted US laws for more

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Speaker 1: than a decade in a variety of schemes that all

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Speaker 1: ultimately inenored his financial benefit. Explain the mess that Manifort

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Speaker 1: got himself into by agreeing to plead and then lying well.

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Speaker 1: He went to trial in Virginia and was ultimately convicted

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Speaker 1: on aid counts. There After that he was facing similar

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Speaker 1: charges in Washington, d c. And he decided instead of

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Speaker 1: going to trial to enter a guilty plea and to

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Speaker 1: cooperate with the Muller investigation. After agreeing to cooperate with

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Speaker 1: the Muller investigation, he apparently lied to federal prosecutors repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: causing Mueller to go to court and ask that the

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Speaker 1: cooperation deal be tossed out, and the judge actually had

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Speaker 1: to hold a hearing on that and determine whether or

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Speaker 1: not Manaford had lied. Judge found that he did throughout

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Speaker 1: the cooperation deal. And now Manafort is facing up to

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Speaker 1: twenty four years in prison. So this will be a

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Speaker 1: virtual life sentence. A presidential pardon, many say, his only

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Speaker 1: way out, but prosecutors in Manhattan are putting together a

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Speaker 1: criminal case against Manifort just in case there's a pardon

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Speaker 1: explain how they'll get around double jeopardy laws. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: a very interesting question, June, because the dual sovereignty doctrine

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Speaker 1: allows for different sovereigns to prosecute someone for essentially the

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Speaker 1: same crimes. So, in other words, if you commit a

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Speaker 1: crime and are are convicted under federal law, the state

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Speaker 1: can actually go after you for a basically the same offense.

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Speaker 1: New York, however, has a state law which makes it

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Speaker 1: much more difficult to get around that double jeopardy issue.

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Speaker 1: So what prosecutors in Manhattan have apparently done as they

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Speaker 1: put together charges that don't completely overlap with the charges

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Speaker 1: that Mueller was investigating. So in the event that there

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Speaker 1: is a presidential pardon, they believe that their charges, which

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Speaker 1: would involve state tax law claims as opposed to federal

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Speaker 1: for example, that would include charges regarding false books and

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Speaker 1: record keeping in connection with certain loans, that those would

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Speaker 1: be independent and would be able to stand up to

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Speaker 1: a challenge along double jeopardy lines. But will the courts

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Speaker 1: let these charges stand? Well, it really will depend on

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Speaker 1: the facts, uh, and we don't know all those facts

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Speaker 1: at this point, but certainly the prosecutors in the Manhattan

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Speaker 1: DA's office are aware what they have to do to

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Speaker 1: put together an independent case. And generally, when someone who

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Speaker 1: has has committed such a broad array of crimes and

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Speaker 1: so much criminal conduct, someone like Paul manafor it, it's

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Speaker 1: not that difficult for prosecutors to find independent and different

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Speaker 1: crimes than the one that Mueller went after. Now Mueller

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Speaker 1: is close to closing his report, if there are no

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Speaker 1: other indictments forthcoming, what could states do to indict any

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Speaker 1: of those who have been connected in the report. Well,

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Speaker 1: anybody who's not been charged are fair game for state

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Speaker 1: prosecutors if state laws have been violated. So I think

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Speaker 1: we could certainly see the possibility of state ages in

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Speaker 1: different jurisdictions taking a look at those individuals. Typically, what

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Speaker 1: will happen is state prosecutors will stand down, as they did,

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Speaker 1: for example, in Manhattan against Paul Mantafort, when they know

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Speaker 1: there's a federal investigation going on. They'll defer to federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutors who have broader jurisdiction and sometimes better tools to

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Speaker 1: go after these crimes. But once federal prosecutors decide not

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Speaker 1: to pursue them, state prosecutors will certainly take a fresh

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Speaker 1: look at these allegations and see if they can bring

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Speaker 1: charges on state grounds. Do you think that at this

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Speaker 1: point there are not going to be any smoking guns

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Speaker 1: there that some people might be disappointed in what's in

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Speaker 1: the report? Well, you know that. I mean, obviously that's

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Speaker 1: the ten million dollar question. It's it's hard to say

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Speaker 1: what Mueller has is going to including this report. He's

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Speaker 1: been working at this for quite a while. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine that after all this time, there's not gonna

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Speaker 1: be something in there that is going to be of consequence.

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Speaker 1: And it really will depend on ultimately whether it amounts

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Speaker 1: to a criminal violation, and even if it doesn't, whether

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Speaker 1: it's so damning politically that it's ultimately moves Democrats in

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Speaker 1: the House to seek impeachment. Thanks so much, Bob. That's

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Speaker 1: Robert Minzi is a former federal prosecutor and a partner

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Speaker 1: in McCarter and English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg