1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:27,550 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,590 --> 00:00:30,730 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always, so 3 00:00:30,790 --> 00:00:35,430 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. That's our super-duper producer, Mr. Max Williams. 4 00:00:36,690 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: Huzzah! Huzzah, tiz-yah. 5 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: That's Mr. Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bolin. Noel, 6 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,860 Speaker 1: we're in media rest. We're in the middle of a 7 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,070 Speaker 1: really crazy story. And, dude, I just have to say, 8 00:00:53,659 --> 00:00:55,990 Speaker 1: not to blow our own horns or hop on our 9 00:00:56,050 --> 00:00:59,450 Speaker 1: own sawhorses here, I thought we did a pretty okay 10 00:00:59,510 --> 00:01:00,710 Speaker 1: job with the backstory. 11 00:01:01,130 --> 00:01:04,070 Speaker 2: Yeah, laying the foundation, if you will. Nice. 12 00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: For Frank Lloyd Wright. Now, you may have seen the 13 00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: episode title for our first episode, and you may have thought, wow, 14 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,780 Speaker 1: you guys talked a little bit about a scandal. You 15 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,870 Speaker 1: talked a little bit about an early life. But where 16 00:01:21,069 --> 00:01:25,780 Speaker 1: are the disastrous dark sides of architecture we were promised? Well, 17 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,860 Speaker 1: that's this episode. 18 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: And I don't know. 19 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,260 Speaker 1: Noel, what do you say we just dive right in? 20 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:43,090 Speaker 3: Yeah, we teased a bit of a fire at the 21 00:01:43,250 --> 00:01:47,050 Speaker 3: end of the previous episode. So that's where we will begin. 22 00:01:47,150 --> 00:01:50,830 Speaker 3: We have to introduce... A new character, however, in our tale, 23 00:01:51,150 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: a 31-year-old African-American gentleman named Julian Carlton. In 1914, he 24 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,210 Speaker 3: came to the compound as Taliesin to work as a chef. 25 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 3: and house servant, I suppose you could call it, over 26 00:02:08,020 --> 00:02:12,859 Speaker 3: a summer. And this was a personal connection because Carlton 27 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:15,370 Speaker 3: had been recommended to write by a fellow by the 28 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:19,090 Speaker 3: name of John Vogelson, Jr. Often you get a junior 29 00:02:19,430 --> 00:02:22,549 Speaker 3: when you're a swell as well, who was the caterer 30 00:02:22,870 --> 00:02:26,550 Speaker 3: for Frank's earlier Midway Gardens project. 31 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:30,810 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's strange to me because when we think of 32 00:02:31,510 --> 00:02:35,310 Speaker 1: construction projects, you think of a site supervisor, you think 33 00:02:35,350 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: of contractors, you think of people hanging drywall and welders 34 00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:45,220 Speaker 1: and other construction professionals, but you don't really think of caterers. 35 00:02:46,380 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? That feels very fancy. Yeah. Okay, 36 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:56,780 Speaker 1: so this guy's a caterer. Vogelson, he recommends Julian Carlton 37 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,700 Speaker 1: because Frank and co. are looking for some kitchen help, 38 00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:06,690 Speaker 1: and they're looking for a handyman, basically. On paper, Julian 39 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:10,169 Speaker 1: has a solid rep. He's got great recommendations from, as 40 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:16,109 Speaker 1: he said, Swell Society. And his wife, Gertrude, comes along 41 00:03:16,310 --> 00:03:20,310 Speaker 1: with him. They are a pair, right? And Gertrude does 42 00:03:20,510 --> 00:03:25,329 Speaker 1: most of the actual cooking. Julian is essentially, he's a 43 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:28,130 Speaker 1: man of, he's a jack of all trades. He's the handyman, 44 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:32,740 Speaker 1: but he does double duty as just a utilitarian, what 45 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: do you need kind of guy around the estate. 46 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: A honeydew. 47 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: A honeydew. 48 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: As my mother would say, yes. 49 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: He also, when the family has visitors or they have 50 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: big dinners, he will play the role of the waiter 51 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:52,710 Speaker 1: or the server. And things started off well enough, but 52 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:55,950 Speaker 1: Carlton had some demons, you guys. 53 00:03:56,050 --> 00:03:56,550 Speaker 2: Sure did. 54 00:03:57,090 --> 00:04:01,830 Speaker 3: And over time, those demons manifested themselves in the form 55 00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: of pretty severe paranoia. Something about his behavior became increasingly unhinged, 56 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,740 Speaker 3: especially how he took up the habit of staying up 57 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:16,219 Speaker 3: super late at night, staring out of a window and 58 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,549 Speaker 3: brandishing a butcher's knife. Yeah. 59 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,610 Speaker 2: Red flag behavior, Ben. 60 00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:22,890 Speaker 3: Yeah. 61 00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:25,730 Speaker 1: And also, just to be clear, folks, when he's staring 62 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:29,860 Speaker 1: out of the window- There's not stuff going on. We 63 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: told you this is a large estate. He's not watching 64 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: a parade or anything. 65 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: No, staring off into the middle distance, as it were. Yes, yes. 66 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:43,510 Speaker 1: Seven-league, thousand-yard stare. His wife, Gertrude, also notices that her 67 00:04:43,570 --> 00:04:47,430 Speaker 1: spouse has begun sleeping with a hatchet in a bag 68 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:52,610 Speaker 1: next to their bedside. And Frank and his mistress, Mama, 69 00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: they clock this and think, They're getting worried, too, and 70 00:04:56,380 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: they're saying, all right, well, maybe this guy is not 71 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,580 Speaker 1: the best fit. So they eventually take out a classified 72 00:05:02,779 --> 00:05:06,740 Speaker 1: ad in the local paper looking for a replacement handyman, 73 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:13,590 Speaker 1: replacement cook. On August 15th, 1914, Frank's people fire Carlton, 74 00:05:13,870 --> 00:05:15,610 Speaker 1: and they say, this is going to be your last 75 00:05:15,650 --> 00:05:18,969 Speaker 1: day with us. And the implication being, of course, that 76 00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:22,309 Speaker 1: it'll be his wife's last day on the estate as well, 77 00:05:22,410 --> 00:05:25,670 Speaker 1: since they're a married couple, they're a pair. Obviously, folks, 78 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: nobody likes to lose a job for any reason, much 79 00:05:29,060 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: less to be fired. And there are plenty of people, 80 00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: even now in 2026, who file lawsuits or seek retribution 81 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: when they feel an employer has treated them unfairly. Carlton 82 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:45,330 Speaker 1: takes this a step further. He's already furious at another 83 00:05:45,390 --> 00:05:48,650 Speaker 1: guy who works in the area or works on the estate. 84 00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: It's a racist draft man named Emil Brodel. Emil had 85 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: been treating Carlton like absolute crap and dirt for a 86 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,980 Speaker 1: while over the course of, again, this just one summer. 87 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,750 Speaker 1: So Carlton, when he learns he's going to get fired, 88 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:06,290 Speaker 1: he says, I'm going to take revenge on. 89 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:09,470 Speaker 2: That jerk Emil. Burn down the building, my stapler. 90 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:10,030 Speaker 3: Yes. 91 00:06:10,210 --> 00:06:11,029 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 92 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:13,410 Speaker 1: He said, and not just Emil, but I'm going to 93 00:06:13,450 --> 00:06:17,890 Speaker 1: take revenge on everybody who works or lives at Towson. 94 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,900 Speaker 1: I am going to kill them all. 95 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,610 Speaker 2: That's where the name of the famous Metallica album came from. 96 00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 2: Don't fact check. It's podcast true. Exactly. Exactly. 97 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:35,390 Speaker 3: He planned this assault targeting the time of high noon 98 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:41,030 Speaker 3: when Borthwick, her visiting children, and the studio employees and 99 00:06:41,110 --> 00:06:45,410 Speaker 3: personnel would be on opposite sides of the grounds, opposite 100 00:06:45,430 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: sides of the living quarters specifically, waiting for lunch to 101 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: be served. Wright, at the time, was away in Chicago 102 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 3: completing that Midway Gardens project we were talking about, which 103 00:06:55,820 --> 00:06:58,780 Speaker 3: is the connection where this guy came from. Having just 104 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,110 Speaker 3: served soup to the Wright's mistress and her children, Carlton 105 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:05,150 Speaker 3: told his wife to skedaddle. 106 00:07:05,550 --> 00:07:06,610 Speaker 2: He then returned to the. 107 00:07:06,570 --> 00:07:10,330 Speaker 3: Porch, wielding that hatchet that he loved so well. I 108 00:07:11,030 --> 00:07:13,750 Speaker 3: think it's such an odd detail that it was in 109 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:16,330 Speaker 3: a bag, that he slept with a hatchet in a bag. 110 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: Maybe just put it under the pillow. The bag seems superfluous, 111 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:21,020 Speaker 2: but I digress. 112 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,670 Speaker 1: Yeah, the bag seems strange, right? It's a little unnecessary. 113 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:26,250 Speaker 1: It's kind of a hat on a hat or a 114 00:07:26,270 --> 00:07:30,090 Speaker 1: hatchet on a hatchet. So to be clear, we said 115 00:07:30,170 --> 00:07:36,390 Speaker 1: this building or this complex is in three primary structures. 116 00:07:37,350 --> 00:07:42,980 Speaker 1: The mistress, Mama, Mama, and her visiting children, who are 117 00:07:42,980 --> 00:07:47,490 Speaker 1: 8 and 11 years old respectively– They are eating on 118 00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:52,020 Speaker 1: one side of the compound and the employees slash disciples 119 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:55,060 Speaker 1: are way on the other side of the compound. So 120 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: they're divided. And that's what we believe Carlton was waiting for. 121 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:06,090 Speaker 1: After he tells his wife, Gertrude, to get GTFO, he 122 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:08,670 Speaker 1: goes back to the porch. Like you said, he's wielding 123 00:08:08,710 --> 00:08:13,980 Speaker 1: this hatchet. He attacks Mama Borthwick and her two children. Again, 124 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:17,820 Speaker 1: these are eight-year-olds. This is an eight-year-old and an 11-year-old. 125 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,380 Speaker 1: And Mama is killed by a single blow to the 126 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: head from the hatchet. Her son, the 11-year-old John, is 127 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,610 Speaker 1: killed while he's still sitting in his chair. This guy's 128 00:08:30,650 --> 00:08:33,550 Speaker 1: a literal axe murderer, Ben. Yes, very much so. This 129 00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:36,590 Speaker 1: is dark stuff. The eight-year-old is a girl named Martha, 130 00:08:36,750 --> 00:08:39,620 Speaker 1: and she manages to get out of the area where 131 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:43,660 Speaker 1: they're eating, but Carlton hunts her down and murders her 132 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:48,179 Speaker 1: in the courtyard, and then he douses the bodies and 133 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,580 Speaker 1: the floor with gasoline, and he sets a fire and 134 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,660 Speaker 1: proceeds to the other wing of the estate where the 135 00:08:56,820 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: employees are eating. 136 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 3: Talk about adding insult to injury, and literal scorched earth 137 00:09:03,470 --> 00:09:08,130 Speaker 3: type stuff. As the workers ate their soup in the 138 00:09:08,170 --> 00:09:11,670 Speaker 3: dining room, a 19-year-old draftsman by the name of Herbert 139 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:16,810 Speaker 3: Fritz and his fellow diners noticed something a bit unusual. 140 00:09:17,170 --> 00:09:19,810 Speaker 3: And he had this to say about what he noticed. 141 00:09:20,170 --> 00:09:23,829 Speaker 3: We heard a swish as though water was thrown through 142 00:09:23,870 --> 00:09:27,370 Speaker 3: the screen door. Then we saw some fluid coming under 143 00:09:27,410 --> 00:09:31,390 Speaker 3: the door. It looked like dishwater. That makes sense, because 144 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:34,010 Speaker 3: gasoline can have a little bit of a bubbly appearance 145 00:09:34,070 --> 00:09:38,850 Speaker 3: at times. Or soapy, right? It has that refracting quality. 146 00:09:40,270 --> 00:09:44,460 Speaker 3: It spread out all over the floor, he recalled. This was, 147 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: of course, Carlton pouring more gas under the door than 148 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:51,580 Speaker 3: setting it on fire as well. 149 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,380 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the reason we have this statement from Herbert 150 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,870 Speaker 1: Fritz is because he's one of the few people to 151 00:09:57,950 --> 00:10:00,740 Speaker 1: survive the attack. He was able to break a window 152 00:10:00,820 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: and escape. But in escaping, he also broke his arm. 153 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: And if you've ever been in a terrifying emergency situation, 154 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,230 Speaker 1: you also know that once that adrenaline kicks in, you 155 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:17,230 Speaker 1: don't really feel your injuries until later, right? So he 156 00:10:17,270 --> 00:10:20,970 Speaker 1: probably didn't realize immediately that he'd broken his arm. Carlton 157 00:10:21,030 --> 00:10:24,490 Speaker 1: does attack that guy who was racist to him earlier. 158 00:10:24,510 --> 00:10:28,910 Speaker 1: He wounds him with the hatchet. These wounds will later 159 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:33,130 Speaker 1: lead to Emil Brodel's death. Then he sets upon the 160 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:38,500 Speaker 1: other employees. A couple of them escape. A master carpenter 161 00:10:38,530 --> 00:10:42,239 Speaker 1: named Billy Weston, who had helped build Towson, and the 162 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,980 Speaker 1: landscape gardener, a guy named David Lindblom. They're both super 163 00:10:47,059 --> 00:10:53,219 Speaker 1: terribly burned, grievously wounded. So they, along with Herbert, manage 164 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:56,060 Speaker 1: to escape the estate and they run like a half 165 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: mile or so because they're looking for the nearest house 166 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,980 Speaker 1: with a telephone. And they contact the authorities. People rush 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,860 Speaker 1: to the scene. They discover this horrific tableau of the 168 00:11:09,940 --> 00:11:16,100 Speaker 1: murdered mistress, her children, two workers, and a 13-year-old boy. 169 00:11:17,230 --> 00:11:20,380 Speaker 1: One of the guys who escaped, the gardener, David, also 170 00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:23,420 Speaker 1: later dies as a result of his burns. 171 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:29,910 Speaker 3: Right. From there, Carlton, our axe murderer, flees to the 172 00:11:29,950 --> 00:11:33,250 Speaker 3: basement where he attempts to take his own life by 173 00:11:33,330 --> 00:11:36,030 Speaker 3: swallowing a vial of hydrochloric acid. 174 00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:40,410 Speaker 2: What a way to go. He was, however, unsuccessful somehow 175 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:44,030 Speaker 2: and survived. Can't imagine that was very pleasant, though. 176 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:48,710 Speaker 1: Yeah. All in all, seven people died. He survived his 177 00:11:48,730 --> 00:11:52,650 Speaker 1: suicide attempt He was arrested. He was taken into custody. 178 00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: He was charged. Julian Carlton never gave a motive for 179 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: his atrocity, but due to the damage that this acid 180 00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: wrought upon his throat, he died of starvation and an 181 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,910 Speaker 1: inflamed esophagus about seven weeks later. 182 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:11,050 Speaker 2: Painful. 183 00:12:11,330 --> 00:12:11,790 Speaker 1: Slow. 184 00:12:11,809 --> 00:12:16,730 Speaker 3: Ugh. His wife, Gertrude, was found nearby. She had no 185 00:12:16,830 --> 00:12:19,130 Speaker 3: idea what had happened and was just waiting to catch 186 00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:23,030 Speaker 3: a train to Chicago with her husband, where she said 187 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,099 Speaker 3: they were going to look for new jobs. So this 188 00:12:26,179 --> 00:12:28,469 Speaker 3: was Taliesin I. 189 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah. And Gertrude was questioned by police and detained. Eventually, 190 00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: she was released, and she was given a pretty small 191 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: amount of money. She went back to Chicago, and we 192 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,610 Speaker 1: don't know what else happened to her, but— As you said, 193 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:49,930 Speaker 1: old Frank Lloyd Wright is out of town when this occurs. 194 00:12:50,110 --> 00:12:54,850 Speaker 1: He's not in Wisconsin. And he returns to just find 195 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:58,370 Speaker 1: a whirr past words, and he decides to rebuild the 196 00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:01,510 Speaker 1: compound when a lot of other people would have just left. 197 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,180 Speaker 2: He moved quickly. 198 00:13:09,890 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: He named this newly rebuilt structure Taliesin II. It's almost 199 00:13:14,290 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: identical to the first one. It has a few extra 200 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: bells and whistles, that fancy stuff we were talking about 201 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:27,829 Speaker 1: that ultimately was not very sustainable or practical. He moves quickly. 202 00:13:28,309 --> 00:13:28,890 Speaker 2: He sure does. 203 00:13:28,929 --> 00:13:31,370 Speaker 3: And around Christmas of that year, we're still in 1914, 204 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:38,740 Speaker 3: Frank also began communicating with a wealthy divorcee named Miriam 205 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: Maud Noel, who had reached out after reading about the 206 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,980 Speaker 3: fire and the mass murder. Like, I guess, yeah, almost 207 00:13:49,020 --> 00:13:51,980 Speaker 3: like a fan, kind of. After meeting her in Chicago, 208 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:55,860 Speaker 3: in his offices there, Frank fell ill. head over heels, 209 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 3: gaga in love with this woman. So by the spring 210 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: of the following year, Taliesin II was finished. Maud had 211 00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 3: also taken up residence there. And Frank's first wife, Catherine Kitty, 212 00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:10,859 Speaker 3: finally granted him that divorce that he wanted in 1922 213 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 3: with a bit of an odd condition, that Frank not 214 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: remarry for one year. So in the interests of you know, 215 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:19,510 Speaker 3: getting this thing done. 216 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: He agreed. Uh, but once that clock had run out 217 00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: on that year, he married his new, um, his new 218 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: lady lickety split. 219 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:28,060 Speaker 1: Yeah. 220 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:28,380 Speaker 3: Yeah. 221 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,900 Speaker 1: Lickety split, uh, is something we should emphasize because he, wow, 222 00:14:34,660 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: he was just running out the clock. You know what 223 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: I mean? And unfortunately this second marriage also went kaput 224 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:48,250 Speaker 1: and pretty quickly because Frank had initially found Noelle's madcap, 225 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:53,460 Speaker 1: somewhat eccentric or erratic personality to be stimulating and charming. 226 00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: But as the pair lived together, one-on-one, he started thinking 227 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,100 Speaker 1: there was something seriously off about his new wife's behavior. 228 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: Ah, the honeymoon period. 229 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,460 Speaker 3: You know, it happens to the rest of us, even 230 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 3: when there aren't some pretty serious concerns at play. 231 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,950 Speaker 1: Right, right. The honeymoon period in U.S. English is conventionally 232 00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:20,710 Speaker 1: referring to that, that those beautiful days early in a relationship, 233 00:15:20,790 --> 00:15:24,370 Speaker 1: when you're not dating the actual person, you're dating their 234 00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:27,070 Speaker 1: impression of the person they think you will. 235 00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:27,650 Speaker 2: Like the most. 236 00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:33,510 Speaker 3: Romanticizing it, falling in love with the limerence, I think 237 00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: is the psychological term, where everything just feels like warm fuzzies, 238 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: and then the reality sets in. And in this case, 239 00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:43,730 Speaker 3: the reality of Noel's behavior was schizophrenia. 240 00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:49,460 Speaker 1: Yeah, later scholars would say this wasn't just oddball eccentricity, 241 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,820 Speaker 1: but an actual mental condition. And Noel eventually leaves Frank 242 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,260 Speaker 1: in the spring of 1924. And that same year, she 243 00:15:59,350 --> 00:16:01,250 Speaker 1: leaves him, but she doesn't divorce him yet. And that 244 00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:06,170 Speaker 1: same year, Wright will go on to meet someone named 245 00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:12,580 Speaker 1: Olga Lazovic-Hindenburg. or Olgivana to her friends. She moves in 246 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: with Frank in Taliesin in 1925. And soon after that, 247 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:22,660 Speaker 1: she becomes pregnant. So Frank is back to repairing his 248 00:16:22,730 --> 00:16:26,730 Speaker 1: career and his reputation. He again is in an estranged 249 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:32,910 Speaker 1: marriage and has a mistress. And people are saying, you know, 250 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:35,390 Speaker 1: people are talking. Like you said, people can be catty. 251 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:39,150 Speaker 1: And weirdly enough, his reputation is kind of saved by 252 00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:44,970 Speaker 1: an earthquake. The Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923 absolutely wrecks 253 00:16:45,130 --> 00:16:49,460 Speaker 1: parts of Japan. But the hotel he built earlier, the 254 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:55,060 Speaker 1: Imperial Hotel of Tokyo, survives the earthquake. And people are saying, look, man, 255 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: do I think someone should marry him? No. But can 256 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:01,550 Speaker 1: the guy build a building? Absolutely not. 257 00:17:02,170 --> 00:17:06,850 Speaker 3: I know. I mean, if having buildings survive earthquakes is wrong, 258 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:08,430 Speaker 3: I don't want to be Frank Lloyd Wright. 259 00:17:11,170 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: There we go. It's worth it. 260 00:17:13,369 --> 00:17:15,450 Speaker 2: I've been waiting to do that for two episodes time. 261 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,859 Speaker 1: Please put in the drum riff. So for a while, 262 00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:23,899 Speaker 1: Frank did not spend too much time at Taliesin II, 263 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: probably because the tragedy was still fresh in his mind, 264 00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:30,180 Speaker 1: but also because he was getting a lot of work now. 265 00:17:30,590 --> 00:17:34,070 Speaker 1: His frequency of commissions was on the rise, and he 266 00:17:34,109 --> 00:17:39,910 Speaker 1: would often live near the construction sites of his newest projects. 267 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: It was kind of a nomadic life. By 1922 or so, 268 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,300 Speaker 1: he really starts settling in until there is, get this folks, 269 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: another fire. 270 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: And you'll recall in part one, we teased the idea 271 00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:55,540 Speaker 3: of multiple fires. 272 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: So we're getting to fire number two. 273 00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:58,730 Speaker 3: Right. 274 00:17:58,930 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: On April 20th, 1925, Frank has just finished dinner in 275 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,140 Speaker 1: the detached dining room and he's walking outside because again, 276 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: this is a beautiful layout. It's very much integrated with nature. 277 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:15,670 Speaker 1: So he's walking outside and he's going to be heading 278 00:18:15,710 --> 00:18:19,070 Speaker 1: back to his bedroom when he sees smoke billowing from 279 00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:22,810 Speaker 1: the windows in the doorway. And because it is kind 280 00:18:22,850 --> 00:18:26,050 Speaker 1: of late at night, most of his employees have returned 281 00:18:26,270 --> 00:18:29,609 Speaker 1: to their houses, to wherever they live off-site. So the 282 00:18:29,670 --> 00:18:33,430 Speaker 1: only people there are his driver and one of his 283 00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:38,850 Speaker 1: apprentices slash disciples. So because those other folks are there 284 00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,570 Speaker 1: and because there's not a murderer on the loose, Frank 285 00:18:42,869 --> 00:18:46,290 Speaker 1: and these two guys are able to get help immediately 286 00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:49,869 Speaker 1: and they're able to contact the town. But the problem is, 287 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: There's a storm afoot, and the winds that night are 288 00:18:53,619 --> 00:18:57,510 Speaker 1: high and wild, so the fire is spreading quickly. The 289 00:18:57,570 --> 00:19:00,850 Speaker 1: living area of Taliesin 2 is destroyed. 290 00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:03,290 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of folks speculate that the fire may 291 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:05,730 Speaker 3: have been caused by a lightning storm, which created an 292 00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 3: electrical charge in the telephone lines, which then ignited a 293 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 3: fire by a telephone in Frank's bedroom. So that was 294 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: the end of Taliesin 2. Um, once again, Frank, uh, 295 00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:20,129 Speaker 3: quickly set to rebuilding and he named this new final 296 00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:22,530 Speaker 3: complex and a burst of creativity, as you like to say, 297 00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:25,210 Speaker 3: Ben Taliesin three. Ah, yes. 298 00:19:25,550 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: Taliesin three. Uh, this was also not an easy reconstruction because. 299 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: You know, your, your house has burned down twice. Now, uh, 300 00:19:35,580 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: Frank is deeply in debt following the, following the obliteration 301 00:19:40,540 --> 00:19:44,379 Speaker 1: Taliesin two, he owes debt on the property. But his 302 00:19:44,510 --> 00:19:49,070 Speaker 1: divorce from Noel also forces him to sell a lot 303 00:19:49,090 --> 00:19:52,740 Speaker 1: of his farm machines. and livestock, which was a side hustle. 304 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,860 Speaker 1: And then he also had to sell off a lot 305 00:19:56,900 --> 00:20:01,510 Speaker 1: of his prized Japanese art at half value just because 306 00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:06,270 Speaker 1: he needed the money. And Taliesin got very close to 307 00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:11,270 Speaker 1: being a courthouse foreclosure auction The Bank of Wisconsin foreclosed 308 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,409 Speaker 1: on it in 1927. Frank had to move out to California. 309 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:20,950 Speaker 1: At that same year, his divorce is finalized. And in 1928, 310 00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: he marries Ogeviana. And they were able to save Taliesin III. 311 00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:31,580 Speaker 1: This is an interesting story. One of his old clients, 312 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,950 Speaker 1: a guy named Darwin Martin, came to Frank. and had 313 00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:38,949 Speaker 1: a really interesting pitch, and I can't wait to hear 314 00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:41,410 Speaker 1: what we all think of this. He said, I can't 315 00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:43,730 Speaker 1: give you all the money, but I got a plan. 316 00:20:44,170 --> 00:20:47,409 Speaker 3: He formed a company called Frank Lloyd Wright Incorporated that 317 00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:52,450 Speaker 3: would issue stock on Wright's future earnings. Many of Wright's 318 00:20:52,490 --> 00:20:57,750 Speaker 3: former clients and students bought in, purchasing stock in Wright, 319 00:20:58,010 --> 00:21:01,830 Speaker 3: and raised $ 70, 000. This is what you might call an IPO, 320 00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:02,429 Speaker 3: kind of? 321 00:21:02,450 --> 00:21:02,850 Speaker 2: Yeah. 322 00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:06,709 Speaker 3: Sort of a self-contained system of stuff. It's not like 323 00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:09,930 Speaker 3: it's publicly traded. Yeah, it is kind of like raising, 324 00:21:10,830 --> 00:21:13,649 Speaker 3: you know, venture capital or something like that, right? The 325 00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:17,750 Speaker 3: company successfully bid on Taliesin for 40 grand and returned 326 00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:19,410 Speaker 3: it to Wright's possession. 327 00:21:20,010 --> 00:21:23,830 Speaker 1: Yep, and so by October of 1928, he was back 328 00:21:23,869 --> 00:21:29,410 Speaker 1: at home. Now, we promised you, this Tuesday passed, we 329 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:32,550 Speaker 1: promised you we had to talk a little bit about 330 00:21:33,109 --> 00:21:40,389 Speaker 1: the allegations of cultury. So in addition to Taliesin, the structure, 331 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: Frank and his third wife, Ogevana, started something called the 332 00:21:45,210 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: Taliesin Fellowship. This was an architectural apprenticeship community that they 333 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: founded in 1932. And it produced a lot of iconic designs. 334 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: A lot of people who went there went on to 335 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:04,250 Speaker 1: have very storied careers themselves in architecture. But it was 336 00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:09,790 Speaker 1: seen as intense, insular, beyond cliquish. It was authoritarian. So 337 00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:14,110 Speaker 1: it's not a cult per se, but it's cult-like in practice. 338 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:16,389 Speaker 1: And if it walks like a duck and it quacks 339 00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:19,139 Speaker 1: like a duck, you know, how many more duck-like things 340 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,180 Speaker 1: do you need, right? 341 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,540 Speaker 2: People were living on the grounds, right? 342 00:22:23,020 --> 00:22:24,020 Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. 343 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 344 00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:29,220 Speaker 3: Under the, you know, control of this one man who 345 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: was very magnetic. 346 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:32,369 Speaker 2: Yeah. 347 00:22:33,630 --> 00:22:37,129 Speaker 3: Kind of held sway over over these folks living in 348 00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:40,230 Speaker 3: his compound i mean it's yeah it's very cult-like especially 349 00:22:40,270 --> 00:22:43,390 Speaker 3: when you consider that dude had from the start had 350 00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:48,010 Speaker 3: kind of like almost a spiritual quality to his connection 351 00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:52,670 Speaker 3: with nature and you know how structures were extensions. 352 00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:54,220 Speaker 2: Of nature and all of that stuff so i mean 353 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:54,700 Speaker 2: it does. 354 00:22:54,580 --> 00:22:58,460 Speaker 1: Make sense yeah and it also to the spiritual point 355 00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:02,969 Speaker 1: When you signed up to study architecture under Frank and 356 00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:07,250 Speaker 1: live under his rule, you weren't just studying architecture. You 357 00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:10,970 Speaker 1: were also studying what they called spiritual development. And a 358 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: lot of that came from his third wife. We'll get 359 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,699 Speaker 1: into that in a second. Twenty-three disciples signed up to 360 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,260 Speaker 1: live and work there that first year. And overall, in 361 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,900 Speaker 1: Wright's lifetime, a total of 625 people would join the fellowship. 362 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,859 Speaker 1: But the living conditions were a source of controversy. The 363 00:23:32,940 --> 00:23:37,510 Speaker 1: quality of education, a.k.a. what are we actually learning, was 364 00:23:37,550 --> 00:23:42,250 Speaker 1: also controversial. And apparently, as he got older and older, 365 00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:47,129 Speaker 1: Frank was a very difficult guy to work with. Apprentices 366 00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:51,380 Speaker 1: were very– you know, it's kind of like hearing people 367 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,740 Speaker 1: who worked in fine dining talking about working under celebrity 368 00:23:55,780 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: chefs who are jerks. because he's traumatized. These people seem, 369 00:24:00,580 --> 00:24:04,060 Speaker 1: in some cases, traumatized, but they also say it was 370 00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:07,700 Speaker 1: worth it. One guy said, he, meaning Frank, is devoid 371 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,490 Speaker 1: of consideration and has a blind spot regarding others' qualities. 372 00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:13,990 Speaker 1: Yet I believe that a year in his studio would 373 00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:15,650 Speaker 1: be worth any sacrifice. 374 00:24:16,270 --> 00:24:18,949 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean, you know, don't need to say 375 00:24:18,970 --> 00:24:21,210 Speaker 3: it again, but we'll say it again, truly began to 376 00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:27,850 Speaker 3: resemble a cult leader in his charismatic qualities, his emotional manipulation, 377 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:34,130 Speaker 3: fraudulent behavior, domineering, his ability to attract plenty of acolytes 378 00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:37,970 Speaker 3: who were willing to more or less, maybe not sacrifice 379 00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:42,780 Speaker 3: like Jonestown, but sacrifice their comfort and their autonomy in 380 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,940 Speaker 3: order to win a place at the table. 381 00:24:46,020 --> 00:24:51,419 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this practice expanded to another construction in Arizona, 382 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,580 Speaker 1: Taliesin West. 383 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:54,740 Speaker 2: Ooh, Arizona is a cold city too, man. 384 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, yeah. 385 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: By this point, the fellowship required you as an apprentice 386 00:25:01,580 --> 00:25:05,340 Speaker 1: to pay for the privilege of studying, and you would 387 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: perform manual labor. You would do farm work. Scientology. Right. 388 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:15,149 Speaker 1: You would build Frank's Designs. So under the influence of Frank, oh, 389 00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:19,390 Speaker 1: and we should mention his third wife, Elgivana, she was 390 00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: a big-time follower of a mystic named G.I. Gurdjieff, G-U-R-D-J-I-E-F-F. 391 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,650 Speaker 1: This guy, his teachings or his beliefs heavily influenced what 392 00:25:34,369 --> 00:25:38,990 Speaker 1: Elgivana would have members of the fellowship do. So they 393 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:43,830 Speaker 1: blended this guy, Frank's inarguable artistic genius, with, like you said, 394 00:25:44,150 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: total psychological control. So even though they never billed themselves 395 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:50,740 Speaker 1: as a religion or as a cult, a lot of 396 00:25:50,780 --> 00:25:53,939 Speaker 1: people did think this was a cult in practice, and 397 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: some of those people were the FBI. 398 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, they caught wind of what was going on over 399 00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:11,179 Speaker 3: there in Frank's various compounds, and they didn't like it 400 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: one bit. They, though, however, as they often do, might 401 00:26:15,220 --> 00:26:18,460 Speaker 3: have had a bit of an ulterior motive. If you 402 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,619 Speaker 3: can imagine, this is also the time when anti-nationalism was huge. 403 00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:27,810 Speaker 3: There's sort of like a witch hunt kind of atmosphere 404 00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: going on in terms of rooting out un-American activities, right? 405 00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:38,100 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Very much the halcyon days of Hoover because 406 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:41,780 Speaker 1: Frank is the world's most famous architect at this time. 407 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,700 Speaker 1: I mean, at least in the Western world. But he 408 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:51,490 Speaker 1: is also a huge proponent of anti-authoritarianism, anti-nationalism, pacifism. And 409 00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: when the U.S. gets involved in World War II— The 410 00:26:56,380 --> 00:27:00,540 Speaker 1: FBI is starting to look closer and closer at Frank 411 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: and what's going on over at Taliesin because they're convinced 412 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: that he might be a spy or he might be 413 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: an anti-American element, like a fifth column of some sort. 414 00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:18,620 Speaker 1: So they've got this huge stack of criminal accusations. They're 415 00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:23,170 Speaker 1: getting tips from quote-unquote concerned citizens, a lot of whom 416 00:27:23,390 --> 00:27:27,580 Speaker 1: are those– same people from Spring Green, Wisconsin, who already 417 00:27:27,619 --> 00:27:31,260 Speaker 1: didn't like him. And they say, okay, we've got enough 418 00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:38,220 Speaker 1: circumstantial allegations of suspicious behavior. Now this guy's FBI jacket, 419 00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:42,830 Speaker 1: his dossier, is deep. And J. Edgar Hoover kept his 420 00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:48,010 Speaker 1: agents bird-dogging Frank Lloyd Wright. They would take anything, you know, 421 00:27:48,109 --> 00:27:52,270 Speaker 1: just real or made-up malarkey and just smack it in 422 00:27:52,490 --> 00:27:53,230 Speaker 1: the file. 423 00:27:53,650 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's important to mention that, you know, a 424 00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 3: lot of this stuff was true. I mean, they had 425 00:27:58,740 --> 00:27:59,900 Speaker 3: pretty good reason to be looking. 426 00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: At this guy. 427 00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:03,699 Speaker 3: I mean, there's some suspicious, you know, activities going on 428 00:28:04,380 --> 00:28:09,140 Speaker 3: under his watch. But to your point, Ben, that axe 429 00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 3: to grind that J. Edgar Hoover often had with folks 430 00:28:12,380 --> 00:28:16,330 Speaker 3: that he perceived as being anti-American really fattened up that 431 00:28:16,410 --> 00:28:20,570 Speaker 3: file pretty significantly with some imagined stuff as well. 432 00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:25,580 Speaker 1: Yeah, because anybody could call in anonymously and leave a tip. 433 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: There's a great piece for the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation 434 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,210 Speaker 1: by a historian named Jack L. 435 00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 2: High. 436 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: Do check it out. He says that Frank Lloyd Wright 437 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: first came to the attention of the FBI full-time in 438 00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:47,620 Speaker 1: December of 1942 because a federal judge accused Frank of 439 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,650 Speaker 1: going to his apprentices and disciples and telling them to 440 00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: avoid the draft and say, hey, you're studying for me. 441 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,660 Speaker 1: You work for me, not the U.S. government, so you 442 00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: are conscientious objectors. And the judge, a guy named Patrick T. Stone, said, mm-mm-mm, 443 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: that doesn't work because you're directly harming the military of 444 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: the United States. 445 00:29:09,850 --> 00:29:10,810 Speaker 2: Well, that's draft dodging. 446 00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:11,630 Speaker 3: Right. 447 00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:12,870 Speaker 2: It's illegal, yeah. 448 00:29:13,330 --> 00:29:17,209 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this judge even sentenced one of Frank's 449 00:29:17,270 --> 00:29:22,380 Speaker 1: apprentices to prison Because he didn't report for the draft. 450 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:26,100 Speaker 1: And then we got to the point about wacky tips. 451 00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:30,530 Speaker 1: We got one where an informant whose name is not 452 00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:35,250 Speaker 1: identified warned the FBI that Frank Lloyd Wright has, quote, 453 00:29:35,490 --> 00:29:38,570 Speaker 1: been sounding off in the worst possible fashion and ought 454 00:29:38,590 --> 00:29:43,770 Speaker 1: to get his knuckles severely hurt. He's been making speeches 455 00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:46,090 Speaker 1: to the effect that we ought to let Japan have 456 00:29:46,130 --> 00:29:48,890 Speaker 1: what she wants in Asia, that they're really nice people. 457 00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:52,620 Speaker 2: He did love the Japanese. He did. 458 00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:56,260 Speaker 1: And the Japanese government did horrific things. 459 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,220 Speaker 2: Oh, no question about it. Yeah. 460 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,700 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then other people would write letters and they 461 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,590 Speaker 1: would say, Frank Lloyd Wright, we're not saying he's a terrorist, 462 00:30:07,630 --> 00:30:10,210 Speaker 1: we're not saying he's a spy, but he's way too 463 00:30:10,270 --> 00:30:14,270 Speaker 1: friendly toward Japan and Germany, and I think he hates England. 464 00:30:14,670 --> 00:30:17,730 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's entirely possible. Hoover forwarded a lot 465 00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:22,140 Speaker 3: of these allegations to the U.S. Assistant Attorney General, Wendell Burge, 466 00:30:23,180 --> 00:30:28,220 Speaker 3: in a request to seek prosecution against Wright for sedition. 467 00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:32,210 Speaker 3: Burge refused to let the case go further and called 468 00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:34,850 Speaker 3: for the FBI to end its investigation of the architect, 469 00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: just finding, you know, a lot of the stuff packing 470 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,900 Speaker 3: out that dossier to be sort of spurless. 471 00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:46,300 Speaker 1: Yeah, hogwash, right? And so here's the deal, though. Hoover, 472 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: in his day, was a lot like a moray eel. 473 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,790 Speaker 1: When he bit down, he wasn't going to let go. 474 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,750 Speaker 1: He was nothing if not tenacious. 475 00:30:55,530 --> 00:30:56,030 Speaker 2: And slippery. 476 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:58,470 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, yes. And he said. 477 00:30:59,330 --> 00:31:00,870 Speaker 2: He basically said. 478 00:31:01,450 --> 00:31:04,390 Speaker 1: Look, I'm going to get this guy on something. We're 479 00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: going to find something. So if he is not guilty 480 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,340 Speaker 1: of sedition, Big Hoof reasoned, then we can still charge 481 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,140 Speaker 1: him with obstructing the draft. So in 1943, an FBI 482 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:22,780 Speaker 1: field agent does a case report and says 26 members 483 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,140 Speaker 1: of Taliesin have petitioned the draft board. in Wisconsin for 484 00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:31,220 Speaker 1: conscientious objector status. And Hoover's like, there we go. He 485 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: really hit, he had a hate boner for this guy. 486 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: Uh, and that's good. 487 00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:43,870 Speaker 1: And one agent, one FBI agent later, uh, interviewed a 488 00:31:44,050 --> 00:31:47,430 Speaker 1: member of the draft board because Frank Lloyd Wright had 489 00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:50,830 Speaker 1: spoken to some of them. And the draft board member said, 490 00:31:51,050 --> 00:31:56,900 Speaker 1: this Frank Lloyd Wright guy, uh, He's too much— he didn't 491 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: say it this way, but basically he said he's too 492 00:31:58,740 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: much of a Colonel Kurtz. He is regarded by members 493 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,780 Speaker 1: of the Fellowship, quote, as somewhat of an idol, a 494 00:32:05,820 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: tin god, or a master who could do no wrong, 495 00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: end quote. So, yeah, Noel, Max, I think it's fair 496 00:32:12,380 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: to say Frank did kind of have a cult. 497 00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:16,700 Speaker 2: He sure did. 498 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:19,380 Speaker 3: And his wife, who we know was kind of the 499 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,620 Speaker 3: driving force behind a lot of this— spiritualism stuff right 500 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:31,740 Speaker 3: um arguably made it even weirder after frank's passing in 1959. 501 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,660 Speaker 1: Right it became um more mystical arguably and and a 502 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:37,950 Speaker 1: lot of good work came out of talison right you 503 00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:41,310 Speaker 1: can learn more about it you can visit talison today 504 00:32:41,630 --> 00:32:46,070 Speaker 1: we recommend it um We're going to have to save 505 00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: the rest of the evolution of Taliesin, perhaps for another day. 506 00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:53,380 Speaker 1: But we do want you to know, folks, no charges 507 00:32:53,940 --> 00:32:58,740 Speaker 1: against Frank Lloyd Wright ever came out of those wartime investigations. 508 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:05,890 Speaker 1: Yet the FBI, probably guided by Hoover's weird personal hatred 509 00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:10,730 Speaker 1: of Frank, they continue to monitor his activities and probably 510 00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: break a few laws while they were monitoring him. all 511 00:33:14,290 --> 00:33:19,410 Speaker 1: the way until his death in 1959 at the age 512 00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:21,270 Speaker 1: of 91 years old. 513 00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:25,370 Speaker 3: You know, Ben, this is a wild story and something 514 00:33:25,390 --> 00:33:28,750 Speaker 3: that maybe feels like a topic we would typically handle 515 00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:31,310 Speaker 3: on Stuff They Don't Want You to Know, our sister pod, 516 00:33:31,330 --> 00:33:33,300 Speaker 3: which you all should check out if you haven't. We 517 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,140 Speaker 3: do a ton of episodes of that show every day, 518 00:33:36,420 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: including one that ends up on Netflix, two rather, a 519 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,380 Speaker 3: week that end up on Netflix. 520 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,430 Speaker 2: You can watch us there. and listener mail. 521 00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:46,470 Speaker 3: Episodes where you can actually be part of the conversation yourself. 522 00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:49,670 Speaker 3: But I'm glad that we did this on Ridiculous History, Ben. 523 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: This is a bit of a change of pace. It's 524 00:33:52,220 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 3: a dark story, maybe a little darker than we typically handle, 525 00:33:54,860 --> 00:33:57,890 Speaker 3: but certainly has more than its fair share of ridiculousness. 526 00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:01,770 Speaker 1: Big, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. 527 00:34:01,850 --> 00:34:06,630 Speaker 1: Big thanks to A.J. Bahamas, Jacobs, Dr. Rachel, Big Spinach, Lance, 528 00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:07,130 Speaker 1: and who else? 529 00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:08,790 Speaker 2: Who else? Oh, geez, Ben. 530 00:34:08,830 --> 00:34:12,210 Speaker 3: You know, Christopher Haciotis and Yves Tchefko here in spirit, 531 00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:14,380 Speaker 3: wandering this great wide world of sports. 532 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland, the quizster, A.J. Bahamas, Jacobs, the puzzler, who 533 00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 2: you already said. We have to thank them in tandem. 534 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,379 Speaker 2: It's just the rules. 535 00:34:21,219 --> 00:34:24,140 Speaker 1: And thank you for tuning in, folks. We'll be back 536 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:24,739 Speaker 1: next week. 537 00:34:25,180 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. 538 00:34:33,210 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 539 00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.