Speaker 1: Hey guys.
Speaker 2: So I've always wanted to do some sort of like
Speaker 2: top Episodes of the Year rundown thing ey.
Speaker 1: This year, I had.
Speaker 2: A little extra time before taking off for the holiday,
Speaker 2: and so kind of threw something together just based on
Speaker 2: what the episodes were that you listened to the most.
Speaker 2: In future years, I'd like to open it up for voting,
Speaker 2: get your input. But for this year, we're just gonna
Speaker 2: be rerunning each of the top five episodes while we're
Speaker 2: on holiday break. And here we are. We're up to
Speaker 2: number one. This is the most listened to episode of
Speaker 2: the year twenty twenty three. For a year where bullshit
Speaker 2: about AI dominated the headlines, bullshit AI headlines dominated my
Speaker 2: brain like the Van Vaught thing. I think it's very
Speaker 2: appropriate that the most listened to episode was about bullshit AI.
Speaker 2: It's another one of our expert guest interview episodes. I
Speaker 2: hope you enjoy listening back to it as much as
Speaker 2: I did, and I hope you're having a great holiday.
Speaker 2: We'll see you in the new year. Thanks everyone, Bye,
Speaker 2: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three oh six,
Speaker 2: Episode two of Alley's I Guys Say production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: This is a podcast where we take a deep debt
Speaker 2: into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, September twenty sixth,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Ooh you ready, you know what this is right? Ooh,
Speaker 1: you know what this is right?
Speaker 3: For all my pancake lovers, it's your day, is National
Speaker 3: Pancake Day.
Speaker 1: It's also National.
Speaker 3: Shamoo the Whale Day, Shout out Shamoo. It's also for
Speaker 3: all my dumpling lovers out there, for me, specifically my
Speaker 3: Gioza lovers out there, National Dumpling Day. Okay, so you know,
Speaker 3: celebrate however you've seen fit depending on your cultural disposition.
Speaker 3: It's also National Johnny Appleseed Day. And only bring that
Speaker 3: up because I remember in Christian school we were made
Speaker 3: to sing that as like a song before we went
Speaker 3: to lunch man.
Speaker 2: The amount of pro Johnny Applesey propaganda that I had
Speaker 2: to live with a lot of pro.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's like it was like John Chapman
Speaker 1: or something original.
Speaker 2: I just really liked it, really fucked with apples like
Speaker 2: the children must learn.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I bet there's some dark ass shit probably behind, you know,
Speaker 3: like some a story like that.
Speaker 1: It's got to be a milkshick.
Speaker 2: Though, Yeah, for sure, very problematic. But the way, like
Speaker 2: the amount of information that I consumed, Like I had
Speaker 2: one of those my family had one of those book
Speaker 2: sets where it was like important historical figures and like
Speaker 2: right next to Lincoln was like Johnny Appleseed, and you
Speaker 2: know they I was prepared for Johnny Appleseed to be
Speaker 2: like one of the major figures in my.
Speaker 1: Life, right and education. Did you know the song? No,
Speaker 1: the Lord is good to me, And so I thank.
Speaker 2: The Lord for giving me the things I need, the
Speaker 2: sun and the rain and the apple seed.
Speaker 1: The Lord is good to me. And then we could
Speaker 1: go eat lunch.
Speaker 3: But we had to sing that ship before wow from
Speaker 3: the from the Disney movie apparently.
Speaker 2: So I wasn't even I didn't even get all of
Speaker 2: the Johnny Applesy propaganda.
Speaker 3: I got the Christian, I got the Christian capitalist Johnny
Speaker 3: apple Seed propaganda just mainlined into.
Speaker 1: My little brain. You were a pot on his head, right,
Speaker 1: I mean I think who sure like.
Speaker 2: Backwards kind of like Davy rocket. Yeah, anyways, this is
Speaker 2: all I don't know. The ship that is probably specific
Speaker 2: to American audiences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but my.
Speaker 2: Name's Jack O'Brien aka start spreading the news eating today.
Speaker 2: I want to eat a part of it pecan pecan pie.
Speaker 2: These chattering teeth are longing to chew through the nutty
Speaker 2: part of it, pig can pecan pie. That is courtesy
Speaker 2: of Maxer twelve sixteen on the discord, A little just
Speaker 2: real solid, right down the middle meatball of a weird
Speaker 2: al parody and reference to our conversation about peacan pie.
Speaker 2: For some reason, he was lobbing that meatball up to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw in the discord. I was tagging that,
Speaker 3: but you took it. Oh so you just do other
Speaker 3: people's a case. Okay, interesting, All right.
Speaker 2: Well I'm throwst to be joined as always by my
Speaker 2: co host mister Miles Gras.
Speaker 3: Okay, so you did my AKA and I heard you
Speaker 3: do this one on Friday, so allow me to do
Speaker 3: it one more time.
Speaker 1: Same, Miles and Jackie. Have you seen it yet?
Speaker 4: Ooh it's just flying around La La La losing all
Speaker 4: my jets.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh there's a wee and his saw spaced out. Oh, Jetty,
Speaker 4: she's a really neat. She's gotta stell the use a
Speaker 4: bomb and shoot so fanzy, you can't even be seen.
Speaker 3: La La losing all my Jets, shout out to the
Speaker 3: Department of Defense for losing all of our multi million
Speaker 3: dollar killer fucking spacecrafts, and shout out to Johnny Davis
Speaker 3: and Blinky Heck.
Speaker 1: One more time. We're done more time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we can like layer those because you went high,
Speaker 2: I feel like I went a little bit lower.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe we could get a little little harmony harmony. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyways, Miles, Yeah, you're thrilled to be joined in our
Speaker 2: third seat Yes for today's expert episode by truly brilliant
Speaker 2: guests who I felt especially stupid singing an AKA in
Speaker 2: front of She's a research associate at the Lever Holme
Speaker 2: Center for the Future of Intelligence, where she researches AI
Speaker 2: from the perspective of gender studies, critical race theory, and
Speaker 2: Asian diaspora studies. He is also a research fellow at
Speaker 2: the AI Now Institute, the co editor of the upcoming
Speaker 2: volume The Good Robot, Feminist Voices on the Future of Technology,
Speaker 2: and the co host of the Wonderful Good Robot podcast.
Speaker 2: Please welcome the brilliant, the talented doctor Kerrie mcinnarn.
Speaker 1: Doctor.
Speaker 5: Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: How different has this been so far from what you
Speaker 2: were expecting.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I don't have a song.
Speaker 2: I was like, how do I say?
Speaker 5: I definitely don't have a song. And I also don't
Speaker 5: know who Johnny applesey it is. I grew up at
Speaker 5: a New zeal edge and so I didn't have a
Speaker 5: book of like historical figures. I had a book called
Speaker 5: watch Out these Creatures, bite and Sting, and it was
Speaker 5: like all the ways you could die being killed by
Speaker 5: like a jelly fish or like an octopus. I may
Speaker 5: leave you into Australia. And so it kind of like
Speaker 5: traumatized me for the good from childhood. But it does
Speaker 5: mean I didn't have the great apple seed song that you.
Speaker 1: Just say, did you guys have apples?
Speaker 2: Though, because I was under the impression that the only
Speaker 2: reason I had apples was a Johnny apple seed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and the Lord and the Lord provided.
Speaker 1: It's just all kiwis right down there.
Speaker 5: Pretty much. Kiwis kiwi fruit, no apples, no songs, just
Speaker 5: no music. It's just silent.
Speaker 3: Is an extcute part of my ignorance is the kiwi
Speaker 3: is that like a native New Zealand fruit.
Speaker 5: I'm hoping so the kiwi is a native New Zealand bird.
Speaker 5: And then the Kiwi fruit is what we call that,
Speaker 5: like fuzzy brown fruit. Yeah. I feel like they kind
Speaker 5: of mix up the two or they you know, they're
Speaker 5: both brown and fuzzy and sort of bulbous.
Speaker 1: Ignorance incarnate here, folks.
Speaker 2: But if you do cut the bird in half, it
Speaker 2: looks exactly like the kiwi fruit. Right, A lot of
Speaker 2: people don't know that green with green with little.
Speaker 1: Horton seed seed core. Yeah.
Speaker 2: All right, doctor McNerney, we have you here today to
Speaker 2: talk to us about AI. We've talked to last week's
Speaker 2: episode about AI. We're thrilled to ask you our follow
Speaker 2: up questions, but before we get to any of it,
Speaker 2: we do like to get to know our guests a
Speaker 2: little bit better and ask you what is something from
Speaker 2: your search history.
Speaker 5: This is pretty embarrassing. I just got a Nintendo and
Speaker 5: I'm like finally entering my game Ago Era. I'm like,
Speaker 5: this is gonna be so fun. But my whole such
Speaker 5: history it's just me googling like very basic controls and
Speaker 5: Zelda Breath of the Wilds. It's like, how do I jump?
Speaker 5: Like it's really awful. I wait and look, it's like
Speaker 5: how do I befriend a dog? Like how do I
Speaker 5: climb a mountain? And so it's not going well, I
Speaker 5: need to outsource my zilta plane to like children who
Speaker 5: will be much better than me.
Speaker 1: Wait, but is it? Is it?
Speaker 3: You're not forcing you to give up, right, You're just
Speaker 3: you're You're just acclimating to the new environment, right.
Speaker 5: I mean the Kingdom is not going to be safe
Speaker 5: whatever I'm meant to be doing. I'm just walking in
Speaker 5: circles now for like an infinite amount of time. But
Speaker 5: I'm having fun, which I guess is the main point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And wait, why did you or were you?
Speaker 1: Were you like a game?
Speaker 3: Did you play games in childhood and you're kind of
Speaker 3: coming back or this is completely new, like this is
Speaker 3: all new territory for you.
Speaker 5: I did, but I was also bad in childhood, Like
Speaker 5: this is a story of like oh, I used to
Speaker 5: be like super into the game, and I like fell
Speaker 5: out of touch, like how people were like amazing athletes
Speaker 5: as children and then like pick it up again, like
Speaker 5: I'm consistently awful again. So the such just three is
Speaker 5: not a surprise.
Speaker 1: Got it?
Speaker 5: Got it?
Speaker 3: I mean you were doing you know, worthwhile things like
Speaker 3: thinking about how to ethically deal with all this technology.
Speaker 3: While I was laughing my ass off playing Donkey Kong Country,
Speaker 3: you being like, Aha, slapped the ground and bananas come out.
Speaker 1: That's a little hack people didn't tell you about.
Speaker 2: Our AI guests on last week's Expert episode was saying
Speaker 2: the video games are one of the ways that he
Speaker 2: thinks that the future, the future of AI is going
Speaker 2: to impact our day to day lives. Is that is
Speaker 2: that something that you think about as you're out there
Speaker 2: kind of just walking in circles in Zelda Breath of
Speaker 2: the Wild.
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like I performed so poorly they
Speaker 5: probably think I am like an NPC. It's just like
Speaker 5: that is not a person with free will like that
Speaker 5: following a fox.
Speaker 1: Around It just it just rotated seven hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: degrees over and over for no reason. I guess.
Speaker 2: So have they made games more fun for people who
Speaker 2: suck at video games? That that's the innovation that I'm
Speaker 2: looking for, because I was never very good at them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I liked playing them, I like hearing about them. I
Speaker 2: think I'm ready to enter my gamer girl era and
Speaker 2: come back.
Speaker 1: But yeah you should. I mean, yeah, look, Jack.
Speaker 3: They already know you as the switch God because you've
Speaker 3: been on Nindado so much. The controllers basically fuse to
Speaker 3: your body, but there are like a lot of new
Speaker 3: or like new like the new Star Wars game. You
Speaker 3: could just set it to like, Man, I'm not trying
Speaker 3: to do all this like fancy shit. I just want
Speaker 3: to beat people up or just mash the keypad over
Speaker 3: and over and win like that, and you can. You
Speaker 3: can't do that cause I think you know it is
Speaker 3: like it is about being able to play at different
Speaker 3: skill levels rather than like, oh, you don't know how
Speaker 3: to multi use the force while you know you're doing
Speaker 3: your melee attacks.
Speaker 1: Come on, some of us just want to be the kids.
Speaker 3: Unraveled is good for that too, of like a fun
Speaker 3: video game that is not like really requiring you to
Speaker 3: have like these sort of highly developed video game skills
Speaker 3: and it's an easy play.
Speaker 2: Nice doctor mcinnerney, What is something you think is overrated?
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm not gonna win myself any friends.
Speaker 5: It'll be like how let loose friends and stop influencing people.
Speaker 5: But all the Disney live action movies, I've hit a
Speaker 5: stage where I'm like, no more live act since The
Speaker 5: Little Mermage is beautiful. I love the original Cinderella, but
Speaker 5: you know I don't I don't want to see more
Speaker 5: and more of like the same movies again. Like it
Speaker 5: makes me a bit sad and like what other stories
Speaker 5: could be told if it weren't like always making these
Speaker 5: live actions. But you know, maybe I'll be proven like
Speaker 5: totally wrong and the next ones will be amazing, but
Speaker 5: I'm ready for something else.
Speaker 3: Just yeah, based on everyone's first like sort of reaction
Speaker 3: like oh you saw how it wasn't like yeah it
Speaker 3: No one was like it was so good, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: see it nine times. Everyone just kind of I think
Speaker 3: they're they have to reconcile like their love for the
Speaker 3: original source material with that and.
Speaker 1: Not fully be like I didn't like it. They're like yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like their voice just goes up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it was like.
Speaker 2: I spent my afternoon going to that.
Speaker 1: I think that's right.
Speaker 2: I've never been more confident in a prediction about the
Speaker 2: future of a like subgenre of movies than in saying
Speaker 2: that they're not going to suddenly figure something out about
Speaker 2: the Disney Live action reskins of the animations, like we
Speaker 2: know what the original cartoons look like and what happens
Speaker 2: in them.
Speaker 1: We know what is possible here, right. I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine a version like what they're gonna pull
Speaker 2: out where we're.
Speaker 1: Like, oh no, that.
Speaker 2: Is not did not see that one coming? Whoa that
Speaker 2: bear is talking and singing? Hold on, oh they already
Speaker 2: did that. That was the best one I think was
Speaker 2: Jungle Book, and that was the first one they did,
Speaker 2: and ever since I feel like, yeah, been diminishing returns Man,
Speaker 2: although I didn't see The Little Mermaid, so I cannot
Speaker 2: speak to that one.
Speaker 1: Is you what's your favorite genre of film though, doctor Kerry?
Speaker 5: Ooh? I mean okay, so I really have a soft
Speaker 5: spot for like old school superhero movies. At my most
Speaker 5: recent most amazing film I film was the latest into
Speaker 5: the Spider Verse film what was it? Spider the Spider Verse?
Speaker 5: And I just I love animation and that film. It's
Speaker 5: so witty and the visuals are extraordinary, just great films.
Speaker 5: So I oracle about how much I love these films
Speaker 5: at work and everyone has to deal with me being like,
Speaker 5: go watch it, So anyone listening, go watch it.
Speaker 3: Amazing favorite favorite Spider character, Spider person in the universe.
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, I can't remember the name of it,
Speaker 5: but the Light really like the really like dark noir
Speaker 5: run for the first one. He's like from like all
Speaker 5: those like nineteen thirties kind of like mystery films, you know,
Speaker 5: all in black and white. I kind of love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was it just Spider Man Noirs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think nor Spider Man. Maybe I don't know, or
Speaker 1: I'm sorry spider Man nor Nor.
Speaker 2: What is when you say old school superhero movies? Do
Speaker 2: you mean like Christopher Reeve's Superman or are you talking about.
Speaker 1: Like the first Iron Man? The first Iron Man.
Speaker 5: I think it's almost like less like specific films. I love,
Speaker 5: like almost films that have that like really cheesy like
Speaker 5: origin coming of age story, Like you know, it's just
Speaker 5: really just about like they're discovering themselves and it's such
Speaker 5: a simple narrative, and like I feel like I should
Speaker 5: crave more complexity than that, and I should want it
Speaker 5: to be more nuanced stories, but sometimes it's just really satisfying,
Speaker 5: and you want this clean cut narrative of this like
Speaker 5: good guy to beating all these bad guys. When I
Speaker 5: want to relax, I really enjoy that. In my day job,
Speaker 5: I think about lots of like complexity and nuances and
Speaker 5: like what we do with the future of society, and
Speaker 5: so you know, sometimes I find it very relaxing just
Speaker 5: to be like soundless.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're like, yeah, I love a Joseph Campbell type flick.
Speaker 1: Just give me that hero's journey in everything it's.
Speaker 5: Gonna be okay, Yeah, it's gonna go wrong.
Speaker 1: Challenge your old self to become your new self.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but DOCC is an example of what we're facing
Speaker 2: with AI Like in the immediate future, I think we
Speaker 2: can all have on that Spiderman two.
Speaker 3: In a way, You're like, it's giving me the equivalent
Speaker 3: of like eight arms.
Speaker 2: In a way you're like, oh boy, what's something you
Speaker 2: think is underrated?
Speaker 5: Oh? Underrated? I mean I'm a big like cozy knight
Speaker 5: in person, Like I want to be one of those
Speaker 5: fun party people who are like, you know, is out
Speaker 5: raving are Realistically at ten pm, I'm like, the day
Speaker 5: is over. I'm in bed, like I think a cozy
Speaker 5: Knight in especially autumn is coming, Like that's just my
Speaker 5: happy place, me at home, my husband. Life is good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that. That's my That's my whole thing.
Speaker 3: Especially we don't get seasons here, so the second there's
Speaker 3: like just the feeling of like a chill.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I need to start nine fires and just
Speaker 1: being near them.
Speaker 2: And that is the problem that Miles has, and he's
Speaker 2: working on his therapy.
Speaker 3: I guess legally it's called arson or something, but what
Speaker 3: I say is I just want everyone to be cozy
Speaker 3: around the Greater Los Angeles metropolitan area. I'm yeah, I
Speaker 3: cannot go within four miles of the Angela's National Forest.
Speaker 1: But whatever, they must see my light. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I love coziness. I love a are you are you cozy?
Speaker 3: Are you summertime Jack? If you had to pick between,
Speaker 3: would you rather be summertime Jack or cozy Jack?
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: I do love a summer especially I'm in my swimming
Speaker 2: phase where I just I really like getting in a
Speaker 2: body of water, get running into the ocean, even when
Speaker 2: it's a little cold ocean. And yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: I'm like in a summer phase, but I yeah, I
Speaker 2: am feeling the need to get cozy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll always take cozy over summer.
Speaker 1: That's just me.
Speaker 2: I know, you you it's it's like you fetishize winter.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 3: It's problematic, like that's why I would only date like
Speaker 3: like women from the Northeast. I feel like you're dating
Speaker 3: me like for this like exotic sort of life, you think,
Speaker 3: I like, what's it like with the snow.
Speaker 2: You're appropriating Minnesota, like Minnesota culture, right, Yeah, well, hey,
Speaker 2: look we're all trying.
Speaker 1: Hey, I heard that.
Speaker 2: He said, Hey, all right, let's take a quick break
Speaker 2: and we'll come right right back and talk about AI.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, and we're back. We're and doctor
Speaker 2: McNerney as mentioned, I am an idiot on this AI stuff.
Speaker 2: I think I generally have like my version of AI
Speaker 2: up until last week. I guess like researching for our
Speaker 2: last expert episode was what I had read in you know,
Speaker 2: mainstream articles that went viral and films mood like Hollywood films,
Speaker 2: and then like messing around with open AI and or
Speaker 2: chat GPT, So I had this kind of disconnect in
Speaker 2: my mind where it was like, from an outsider's perspective,
Speaker 2: we have this C plus level like copywriter thing with
Speaker 2: like in chat GPT, GPT for and then like the
Speaker 2: Godfather of AI, who I'm just trusting people is the
Speaker 2: godfather of AI. But that's what everyone uses, that same phrase,
Speaker 2: like the godfather of AI just quit Google and says
Speaker 2: we're all fucked in the next couple of years. And
Speaker 2: I think it's confusing to me because I don't know exactly,
Speaker 2: like I can't even like picture the way how he
Speaker 2: thinks we're fucked. And there was this letter that was like,
Speaker 2: we need to pause development on AI for in the
Speaker 2: near few sure, And I guess I'm just curious to
Speaker 2: hear your perspective on that pause letter and what the
Speaker 2: kind of dangers of AI are in the near future.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because to Jack's point two, Also, we were talking
Speaker 3: with Juao Sadok last week at NYU about it, and
Speaker 3: like at the end of it, we're like, okay, so
Speaker 3: it's not sky Net right from terminator and they're like,
Speaker 3: oh great, But then we realize there's a raft of
Speaker 3: other things that come along with just not being the terminator.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's I'm also from a similar perspective where
Speaker 3: I always assume sky Net.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think you're totally not alone in
Speaker 5: the dominant of ideas like sky Nee the terminator because
Speaker 5: so much of our cultural framework for understanding what AI
Speaker 5: is comes from a very narrow set of movie It's
Speaker 5: like the terminator, like the matrix, which always positions AI
Speaker 5: is something that's going to dominate us. It's going to
Speaker 5: take over the world, and it's going to control us.
Speaker 5: And it's important too, I think highlight that that's definitely
Speaker 5: not the only ideas that we have about AI. We've
Speaker 5: got thousands of years of thinking about our relationship with
Speaker 5: intelligent machines, and there's a lot of different cultural traditions
Speaker 5: that have really different ways of thinking about our relationships
Speaker 5: with AI and intelligent machines that could be much more positive,
Speaker 5: much more harmonious. And so I do think our immediacy
Speaker 5: of jumping to this idea of sky net is reflective
Speaker 5: of very much where we are right now. Right I'm
Speaker 5: in the UK, you're in the US. These are countries
Speaker 5: that have a really long history of thinking about AI
Speaker 5: and very binary terms. So yeah, I think it's important
Speaker 5: that we think about these long term risks of AI.
Speaker 5: And you mentioned the pause letter calling for a wholt
Speaker 5: to generating more large language models like chat GPT until
Speaker 5: it had a bit more of a moment to think
Speaker 5: about to the long term consequences of these models. But
Speaker 5: I think it's really important not just to think of
Speaker 5: the long term risks, but to think about which long
Speaker 5: term risks we prioritize, because I think the sky neet
Speaker 5: terminating fantasy eats up a lot of oxygen about how
Speaker 5: we talk about AI's risk. But there's a lot of
Speaker 5: different risks that AI poses. So another long term risk
Speaker 5: that we don't talk about very much at all is
Speaker 5: the climate cost of AI. Right, because AI it's hugely
Speaker 5: energy intensive. Data centers require a huge amount of water
Speaker 5: to function, and we have this massive problem of e
Speaker 5: waste produced by a lot of electronic systems. But that
Speaker 5: long term problem of climate crisis is much less exciting.
Speaker 5: It's really scary, it's really grounded, and a lot of
Speaker 5: our experiences and so it just doesn't seem to get
Speaker 5: as much airtime. So that's something that I think is
Speaker 5: really important, is changing the conversation a bit to say, Okay,
Speaker 5: it's sometimes interesting, sometimes scary to think about the terminator option,
Speaker 5: but what are some of the other long term options
Speaker 5: that could really shape our lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the degree to which the deck is being
Speaker 2: stacked towards the terminator option was surprising to me, Like
Speaker 2: we dug in last week a little bit to the
Speaker 2: two stories I had always heard that are like kind
Speaker 2: of put into the terminator version of AI taking over
Speaker 2: a category.
Speaker 1: There's the AI that killed.
Speaker 2: A person in a military exercise that decided to like
Speaker 2: eliminate its controller, and then there was the AI that
Speaker 2: hired a task rabbit to pass the CAPSHA test, And
Speaker 2: like in both cases those are like the AI that
Speaker 2: killed a person in the military exercise, like that was
Speaker 2: somebody claiming that, and then when they went back they
Speaker 2: were like, oh, I was just saying it could hypothetically
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: It was a thought experiment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a thought experiment of what an AI
Speaker 2: could do in the right circumstances. And the task rabbit
Speaker 2: one was more similar to the self driving car Elon
Speaker 2: Musk thing, where it was just there was a human
Speaker 2: prompting it to do that thing that seems creepy to
Speaker 2: us when we like start thinking about, oh, it's like
Speaker 2: scheming to get loose and get overcome the things that
Speaker 2: we're using to keep it hemmed in. So it does
Speaker 2: feel like there is an incentive structure set up for
Speaker 2: the people in charge of some of these major AI
Speaker 2: companies to get us to believe that shit, like to
Speaker 2: think to only focus on the AI v. Humanity, Like
Speaker 2: AI gets loose of its control of our controls for
Speaker 2: it and takes over and starts like killing people version
Speaker 2: of it. I'm just curious, like what are your thoughts on,
Speaker 2: Like why why why are they incentivized to do that
Speaker 2: when it would seem like, well, you don't want to
Speaker 2: make it. You don't want it to seem like this
Speaker 2: self driving car will take over and.
Speaker 1: Start kill your family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, start killing your family. It's so powerful. But it
Speaker 2: seems like with AI, they're more willing to buy into
Speaker 2: that fantasy and like have that fantasy projected to people
Speaker 2: who are not as closely tied to the ins and
Speaker 2: outs of the industry.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that's such an important point
Speaker 5: because it's a weird thing about the AI industry, right,
Speaker 5: Like you would never have this kind of hypewave around
Speaker 5: something like broccoli where you say, oh, the broccoli, if
Speaker 5: you eat it could kill you or it could like
Speaker 5: transform the world, and then you wouldn't expect that to
Speaker 5: somehow get people to buy a lot more broccoli and
Speaker 5: just feel like I don't want to eat broccoli.
Speaker 2: Now that's so fucking good and powerful. If you explode
Speaker 2: like maybe.
Speaker 5: Makes it even worse brocci that you can then also
Speaker 5: eat you know what broccoli would be doing. But I
Speaker 5: do think that we see this real cultivation of hype
Speaker 5: around AI and that a lot of firms explicitly use
Speaker 5: that to sell their products, and it gets people interested
Speaker 5: in it because on the one hand, people are really
Speaker 5: scared about the long term and short term impacts of AI.
Speaker 5: On the other hand, it also scared then though, of
Speaker 5: getting left behind. So you see more and more firms saying, well,
Speaker 5: now I've got to buy the latest generative AI tool
Speaker 5: so that I look really tech savvy and I look
Speaker 5: peck forward and I look futuristic, and so it's part
Speaker 5: of this bigger hype cycle, I think, to draw a
Speaker 5: lot of tension towards their products, but also to make
Speaker 5: them seem like this really edgy, desirable thing. But I
Speaker 5: think what's also interesting about both the stories that you
Speaker 5: raise is when you looked under the hood, there was
Speaker 5: human labor involved, right There were people who were really
Speaker 5: central to something that was attributed to an AI, And
Speaker 5: I think that's a really common story we see with
Speaker 5: a lot of the type around AI is often the
Speaker 5: way we tell those stories. Eraises a very real human
Speaker 5: labor that drives those products, whether it's the artists who
Speaker 5: originally made the images that trained the generative AI through today,
Speaker 5: the labelers all sorts of people who are really central
Speaker 5: to those processes.
Speaker 3: Right, And I know, like in your episode of The
Speaker 3: Good Robot when you're discussing the pause letter, you know,
Speaker 3: I think that the I think the version that we
Speaker 3: see as like sort of these short term threats, at
Speaker 3: least in the most immediate way is like for me
Speaker 3: working in and around entertainment and people who work in
Speaker 3: advertising and seeing like an uptake in that section, I go, Okay,
Speaker 3: that's easy. Like I can see how a company immediately goes, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a tool, and then suddenly it's like and now
Speaker 3: you're on your ass because we'll just use the tool
Speaker 3: now and we don't even need a person to prompt it,
Speaker 3: or we need many we just need fewer people to
Speaker 3: operate it. So to me, I'm like, Okay, that's an
Speaker 3: obvious sort of thing I can see, like on the horizon.
Speaker 3: And you did talk about, well, there was a lot
Speaker 3: of talk of these sort of long term existential or
Speaker 3: quote unquote existential threats that there were a lot of
Speaker 3: things in the short term that we're actually ignoring. What
Speaker 3: are those sort of things that we need to bring
Speaker 3: a little bit more awareness to, Like I know you
Speaker 3: mentioned the climate, and I look at it from my perspective,
Speaker 3: I see like the just massive job loss that could happen.
Speaker 3: But what are sort of like the more short term
Speaker 3: things that kind of maybe are less sexy or interesting
Speaker 3: to the people who just want to write about killer
Speaker 3: terminators and things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think less sexy is exactly the
Speaker 5: right phrase for this, which is a lot of the
Speaker 5: short term issues. I very much about entrenching existing forms
Speaker 5: of inequality and making them worse. And that's often something
Speaker 5: people don't really want to hear about because they don't
Speaker 5: want to acknowledge its inequalities, or because it takes away
Speaker 5: from the shiny units of AI. It makes it very
Speaker 5: much like a lot of other technological revolutions that we've
Speaker 5: already seen, and that's super boring. Like you don't want
Speaker 5: to hear about how the wheel somehow brought about some
Speaker 5: kind of inequality the big heart take for today. But yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean something that I look at, for example, are
Speaker 5: like very mundane but important technologies, like technologies used in
Speaker 5: recruitment and hiring. So I look at AI powered video
Speaker 5: interview tools and look at how that affects people's particular
Speaker 5: you know, likelihood of being employed and how they go
Speaker 5: through the workforce, and yep, it's less exciting seeming than
Speaker 5: the terminator. But again, when you look under the hood
Speaker 5: and dig into them, you're like, oh wow, this could
Speaker 5: actually really really compound inequalities that we see in the
Speaker 5: work force under the guise of the idea that these
Speaker 5: tools are going to make hiring more fair. And that's
Speaker 5: a massive problem.
Speaker 3: Right, so because like the idea with those hiring tools
Speaker 3: like it will actually take away these sort of like
Speaker 3: demographic cues that someone might use to like you know,
Speaker 3: they apply their own biases to So in fact, it
Speaker 3: is the most equitable way to hire. But is it
Speaker 3: because of just the kinds of people that are creating
Speaker 3: these sort of systems, Because they tends to be a
Speaker 3: bit one note that that's inherently where like sort of
Speaker 3: that like it begins to wobble a bit.
Speaker 5: It's a mixture. So of course, yes, the lack of
Speaker 5: diversity in the AI industry is like very stark. It's
Speaker 5: also sadly in the uk AN industry, where for example,
Speaker 5: women's representation is actually getting worse, not better. So that's
Speaker 5: a sad slap in the face for a lot of
Speaker 5: the progress narrative that we want to see. But sometimes
Speaker 5: it's not even necessarily that the people creating these tools
Speaker 5: have bad intentions, maybe not even that they're using faulty
Speaker 5: data sets or biased data sets. These are two of
Speaker 5: the really big problems that are flagged, But sometimes the
Speaker 5: underlying idea behind their product is just focus. Like it's
Speaker 5: just a really bad concept, and yet somehow it gets
Speaker 5: brought to market again because of all this hype around AI.
Speaker 5: So with the video interview tools that we look at,
Speaker 5: for example, they basically claim that they can discern a
Speaker 5: candidate's personality from their face and from their words, so
Speaker 5: how they talk, how they move, They can decide how
Speaker 5: extroverted you are, or how you know open you are,
Speaker 5: how neurotic you are, how conscientious you are, all these
Speaker 5: different markets of personality, to which I would say, firstly, no,
Speaker 5: there's absolutely no when AI can do that. This is
Speaker 5: just a very old kind of racial pseudoscience making its
Speaker 5: way back into the mainstream, saying Okay, we can totally
Speaker 5: guess your personality from your face. Like it's like your
Speaker 5: friends looking at someone's profile picture on like Pinder or
Speaker 5: whatever and being like they look like they'd be really
Speaker 5: fun at a party. Like it's about that level of accuracy,
Speaker 5: you know. And then second, is that even a good
Speaker 5: way of judging if someone's gonna be good for a job?
Speaker 5: Like how extra vetted do you want to person in
Speaker 5: a job to be? Maybe in your job that's really
Speaker 5: really helpful In my job, I don't know how helpful
Speaker 5: it is. So there's just kind of a lot of
Speaker 5: flaws at the very you know, bottom of these products
Speaker 5: that we should be worried about.
Speaker 2: Just like a C minus level job hiring process. Like
Speaker 2: that's what I feel like so many of the things,
Speaker 2: like when you get down to them and see them
Speaker 2: in action, they're like not that good. Like it does
Speaker 2: feel like the whole thing is being hyped to a
Speaker 2: large degree, And like that's something I heard from somebody
Speaker 2: I know who like works in you know, like all
Speaker 2: of my friends who work in finance, or like any
Speaker 2: of those things, Like my brain shuts off when he
Speaker 2: starts talking about what he does, but he was saying,
Speaker 2: like he pays attention to the market, and he was saying,
Speaker 2: there's like a big thing propping up the stock market
Speaker 2: right now is AI. And it really is like that,
Speaker 2: that's where so much of people's wealth is tied up,
Speaker 2: as in like the stock market, and it's just tied
Speaker 2: to like what you can get people excited about in
Speaker 2: a lot of cases. So it really like that from
Speaker 2: that perspective, the incentive structure makes sense, Like you want
Speaker 2: people talking about how your AI technology can do all
Speaker 2: these amazing things because that literally makes you have more
Speaker 2: money than you would have if they knew the truth.
Speaker 3: About your your product without being like yeah, wait, how
Speaker 3: many seven fingered Trump pictures can we create?
Speaker 1: And right be like yeah, man, fucking millions into this.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean that's kind of something that's really come out
Speaker 5: of the last few years is how many fans just
Speaker 5: use the label of AI to get funding. Like I
Speaker 5: think there was a study a couple of years ago
Speaker 5: that said of European AI startups didn't use AI, which
Speaker 5: I point, you're like, well, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Well, we could though, this podcast is actually an AI
Speaker 2: podcast because eventually it could use AI. And before we
Speaker 2: were recording, Miles was actually putting in. He asked an
Speaker 2: AI to pitch him an episode of Friends in which
Speaker 2: the cast and you know, the people on the the
Speaker 2: friends on the show deal with the fallout from the
Speaker 2: events of nine to eleven.
Speaker 1: And it wouldn't do it. So we can't.
Speaker 2: Quite claim that we are an AI podcast yet, but
Speaker 2: but we did it.
Speaker 3: Did do it when I said, do it, pitch me
Speaker 3: an episode where Joey and Monica drive Uber from Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it did.
Speaker 1: So clearly it because you can see where these guardrails out.
Speaker 1: They're like, don't do nine to eleven stuff, though that's
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: But I mean, so yeah, I think there's two things
Speaker 2: we're talking about here, Like from from one perspective, like, yes,
Speaker 2: you could put it in the category of like, well, yes,
Speaker 2: the wheel makes racism or colonialism more frictionless is a
Speaker 2: word that gets used a lot, but like literally in
Speaker 2: the case of the wheel, frictionless. But AI and like
Speaker 2: a lot of technology is designed to make groups of
Speaker 2: people and like our interactions and the things that make
Speaker 2: people money more frictionless. And that's something that you guys
Speaker 2: have talked about on recent episodes of Good Robot, Like,
Speaker 2: there's this one example that really jumped out to me
Speaker 2: that I think was from your most recent episode, or
Speaker 2: at least the one that's up most recently right now
Speaker 2: as we're recording this, where you guys were talking about
Speaker 2: a company that asked a regulating body to make an
Speaker 2: exception to a law around like a high risk use
Speaker 2: of AI, and the law said that people had to
Speaker 2: supervise the use of AI like just because it seemed dangerous,
Speaker 2: and the company appealed to the regulating body by saying, well,
Speaker 2: we just like that would cost too much and we
Speaker 2: would never be able to like scale this make a profit.
Speaker 2: And it feels to me like our answer as a
Speaker 2: civilization to that complaint needs to be that's not our problem,
Speaker 2: Like that's then you shouldn't be doing it. But instead,
Speaker 2: it seems like the answer too often, not just in AI,
Speaker 2: but just across the board, especially in the US, is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: well we have to make an exception so that they
Speaker 2: can make a profit around this technology, or else the
Speaker 2: technology won't get developed because the only thing that drives
Speaker 2: technological progress is like the profit motive. But that's you know,
Speaker 2: as I think you guys talked about in that episode,
Speaker 2: that's never been the best way to develop technology, Like
Speaker 2: it's it's been a good way sometimes to democratize existing technology,
Speaker 2: but like that's I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like that.
Speaker 2: Idea of you have to make it profitable, you have
Speaker 2: to make it easy on these companies to keep trying
Speaker 2: different things for AI to become profitable is baked in
Speaker 2: at a like cellular level at this point in how
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, Western colonial civilizations operate.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think too often a lot of
Speaker 5: the technologies that shape our daily lives are made by
Speaker 5: a very narrow set of people who ultimately aren't beholden
Speaker 5: to us. They're beholden to their shareholders or to their
Speaker 5: boss and right, so they don't really have our best
Speaker 5: interests at heart, right, Like, for example, take this whole
Speaker 5: rebranding of like Twitter to Eggs by Musk. I remember
Speaker 5: waking up and finding my little Twitter bird replaced with
Speaker 5: this huge X and just being like, oh, con firstly
Speaker 5: because it was part of you know, Twitter's low decline,
Speaker 5: but secondly it maybe you feel pretty disappointed or really
Speaker 5: aware of the fact that one guy could have such
Speaker 5: a huge impact on how literally millions of people use
Speaker 5: a social networking platform that's actually super important, you know,
Speaker 5: to their daily lives and has played a huge role
Speaker 5: in activist movements and fostering different communities. And I think
Speaker 5: that's a story we see time and time again with
Speaker 5: some of these big tech com which is not only
Speaker 5: do they have their own profit motive at heart, they
Speaker 5: also they're not beholden in any way to the public,
Speaker 5: and they're not being compelled by regulation to make good
Speaker 5: decisions that necessarily benefit the public. So I think a
Speaker 5: really important question going forward is how do we support
Speaker 5: kinds of technology development that are very much based in
Speaker 5: the communities that the technology is for. I think one
Speaker 5: really big part of that is recognizing that so many
Speaker 5: AI models, as you mentioned right, they're designed to be
Speaker 5: scalable and that's how they make money. This idea that
Speaker 5: you can apply them globally and universally, and I think
Speaker 5: that's a big problem, partly because it often is really homogenizing.
Speaker 5: It can involve like explitting a model from the US
Speaker 5: usually out to the rest of the world. It's probably
Speaker 5: not actually appropriate to using those contexts. But also a
Speaker 5: lot of really exciting and good uses of technology I
Speaker 5: think come from these really localized, specific, community based levels.
Speaker 5: So sometimes I think it can be about thinking smaller
Speaker 5: rather than bigger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was like another thing that struck me about
Speaker 3: like just all the warnings and even in that pause
Speaker 3: letters sort of like the presumption that it's like, well,
Speaker 3: all you motherfuckers are going to use this, so we
Speaker 3: got to talk about it where it's like I don't know,
Speaker 3: I don't even fucking know what it is, Like a
Speaker 3: second ago, I thought it was Skynet, and now, like
Speaker 3: you know, you have your company being like, yeah, we
Speaker 3: now have enterprise AI tools like welcome.
Speaker 1: You're like, but what am I huh like?
Speaker 3: And I think that's what's an really interesting thing about this,
Speaker 3: as like a sort of technological advancement is before people
Speaker 3: really understand what it is, there is like from the
Speaker 3: higher the powers that be sort of going into it
Speaker 3: being like, well, this is it. Like everyone's using it,
Speaker 3: but I'm still not sure how. And I guess that
Speaker 3: probably feeds into this whole model of generating as much
Speaker 3: you know, excitement market excitement about AI is by taking
Speaker 3: the angle of like everything's different because everyone is going
Speaker 3: to be using AI. Most of y'all don't know what
Speaker 3: that is, but get ready. And I think that's what
Speaker 3: also makes it very confusing for me, as just like
Speaker 3: a lay person outside of the text sphere to just
Speaker 3: be like, wait, so are.
Speaker 1: We all using it?
Speaker 3: And even now, I really I still can't see what
Speaker 3: that is and how that benefits me. And I think
Speaker 3: that's a big part of I'm sure your work too,
Speaker 3: or even like any ethicist, is to understand like, well,
Speaker 3: who does it? Ben Like, first, we're making this because
Speaker 3: it benefits who and how?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I think yeah, I mean right now, it benefits
Speaker 1: the companies that are making it. And it sort of
Speaker 1: feels like.
Speaker 3: That's the way it's being present or slightly being like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you guys are gonna love this, but really we're going
Speaker 3: to benefit from the adoption of this technology.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that's this crucial question, is
Speaker 5: this stepping back and saying, actually, is this inevitable? And
Speaker 5: do we even want this in the first place? And
Speaker 5: I think that's what really frustrated me about the Pause
Speaker 5: letter and about a number of kind of big text
Speaker 5: figures signing on to it, is that they're very much
Speaker 5: pushing this narrative of like, oh, this is like unstoppable
Speaker 5: and it's inevitable and it's happening. We've got a fine
Speaker 5: way to deal with it. And it's like you're making
Speaker 5: it like you are the people really making these technologies,
Speaker 5: and a lot of cases, so if you really think
Speaker 5: it's an existential risk to humanity, stop it. Honestly could
Speaker 5: even be that simple, but that's you know, what makes
Speaker 5: me really then question their motives and sort of coming
Speaker 5: forward with a lot of this kind of very doom
Speaker 5: and gloom language. I think it's also interesting if you
Speaker 5: look at, for example, countries as national AI strategies. So
Speaker 5: if you look at say like China and the UK
Speaker 5: and the US and these countries that are now thinking
Speaker 5: about what their national long term AI strategy is going
Speaker 5: to be, they also very much frame it around the
Speaker 5: idea that AI is completely inevitable, that this is going
Speaker 5: to be the transformative technology for imaging the future, for
Speaker 5: geopolitical dominance, for economic supremacy. And again, I think as
Speaker 5: an ethesis, what I really want people to do is
Speaker 5: step back and say, I think we're actually at a crossroad,
Speaker 5: or we can decide whether or not, don't we think
Speaker 5: these technologies are good for us, and whether they are sustainable,
Speaker 5: whether they are a useful long term thing for our societies,
Speaker 5: or actually whether the benefits of these technologies are going
Speaker 5: to be experienced by very few people and the costs
Speaker 5: are going to be borne by many.
Speaker 2: Right, we talked last week about the scientific application that
Speaker 2: you know, used deep learning to figure out the shapes
Speaker 2: of proteins, the structures of proteins, and that could have
Speaker 2: some beneficial uses, will probably have some beneficial uses for
Speaker 2: you know, how we understand disease and medicine and how
Speaker 2: we treat that. But there are ways to probably differentiate
Speaker 2: and think about these things, Like it's not you don't
Speaker 2: just have to be either luddite or like AI pedal
Speaker 2: to the floor. You know, let's just get out of
Speaker 2: the way of the big companies. You know, it feels like,
Speaker 2: but it is such a complicated technology that I think
Speaker 2: there's going to be inherent cloudiness around how people understand
Speaker 2: it and also manufactured cloudiness because it is in the
Speaker 2: overall system's benefit. The overall system being like capitalism, it's
Speaker 2: in their benefit to generate like market excitement where there
Speaker 2: shouldn't be any.
Speaker 5: Basically, yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to generate
Speaker 5: this kind of nebulousness around AI because to some extent
Speaker 5: we still don't really know what it is. It's still
Speaker 5: more of a concept than anything else because the term
Speaker 5: AI is like stretched and used to describe so many applications.
Speaker 5: Like I spent two years interviewing engineers and data scientists.
Speaker 5: Is a big tech firm, and they would sort of grumble, well,
Speaker 5: fifteen or twenty years ago, you know, we didn't even
Speaker 5: call this AI, and we were already doing it. It's
Speaker 5: just a decision tree, you know. Again, it's kind of
Speaker 5: part of that branding. But also we have these again
Speaker 5: thousands of years of stories and thinking about what an
Speaker 5: intelligent machine is, and that means we can get super
Speaker 5: invested in super cloudy very very quickly. And yeah, I
Speaker 5: don't want people to feel bad for being scared of
Speaker 5: being cloudy about these technologies. It is dense and confusing,
Speaker 5: But at the same time, I do think that it
Speaker 5: is really important to come back to that question of
Speaker 5: what does this do for us? So, you know, the
Speaker 5: question of like Luddism or being a lud die I
Speaker 5: think is really interesting because I you know, personally I
Speaker 5: do use AI applications. There's certain things about these technologies
Speaker 5: that really excite me. But I'm really sympathetic to some
Speaker 5: of the kind of old school ludyet who weren't necessarily
Speaker 5: anti technology, but we're really against the kind of impacts
Speaker 5: that technology we're having on their society. So the way
Speaker 5: that new technology is, like I think it would be
Speaker 5: things like spinning and weaving, we're causing mass unemployment and
Speaker 5: the kind of broader rammifications that was having for people
Speaker 5: in the UK socially, and that kind of has quite
Speaker 5: a scary parallel to today in terms of thinking about
Speaker 5: maybe what AI will bring about for the rest of
Speaker 5: us who maybe aren't researchers in a lab, but who
Speaker 5: maybe might be replaced by some of these algorithms in
Speaker 5: terms of our work and our output.
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you talk at all about open source like
Speaker 2: models of because you know what, when we talk about
Speaker 2: this idea that corporations have all this power and are
Speaker 2: incentivized to do whatever is going to make the most money,
Speaker 2: which in a lot of cases is going to be
Speaker 2: the thing that removes the friction from consumption decisions, and
Speaker 2: you know, just how people interact and do these things,
Speaker 2: which well, as you guys talked about in your episode,
Speaker 2: like removing the friction, Like friction can be really good
Speaker 2: sometimes sometimes your system needs friction to stop and correct
Speaker 2: itself and recognize when bad shit, when things are going wrong.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's also a history in even in
Speaker 2: the US, where corporations are racing to get to a
Speaker 2: development and ultimately are beat by open source models of
Speaker 2: technological organizing around like getting a specific solution. Do you
Speaker 2: have any hope for like open source in the future
Speaker 2: of AI.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm really interested in community
Speaker 5: forms of development, and I think open source is a
Speaker 5: really interesting example. I think we've seen other interesting examples
Speaker 5: around things like collective data labeling, and I think that
Speaker 5: these kinds of collective movements, on the one hand, seem
Speaker 5: like a really exciting community based alternative to the concentration
Speaker 5: of power in a very very narrow segment of tech companies.
Speaker 5: On the other hand, though, I think community work is
Speaker 5: really hard work. We had doctor David Adlani on our podcast,
Speaker 5: who's very important figure in Mascana, which is a grassroots
Speaker 5: organization that aims to bring some of the over four
Speaker 5: thousand African languages into natural language processing or NLP systems,
Speaker 5: and he talks a lot about how the work he
Speaker 5: does with Masakana is so valuable and so important, but
Speaker 5: it's also really really hard because when you're working in
Speaker 5: that kind of collective, decentralized environment, and it can be
Speaker 5: much slower, and as you said, there can be a
Speaker 5: lot more friction in that process. But counter to this
Speaker 5: move fast, break things kind of culture, sometimes that friction
Speaker 5: can be really productive and it can help us slow
Speaker 5: down and think about, you know, the decisions that we're
Speaker 5: making very intentionally rather than just kind of racing as
Speaker 5: farst as we can to make the next newest, shiniest product.
Speaker 3: Was almost like in your work too, you know you
Speaker 3: talk about how, you know, like looking at these technologies
Speaker 3: especially through a lens of like feminism and intersectionality and
Speaker 3: you know, bipop communities and things like that, and I
Speaker 3: like broadly in science there's like, you know, there's an
Speaker 3: issue of like language hegemony in scientific research, where if
Speaker 3: things aren't written in English a lot, sometimes studies just
Speaker 3: get fucking ignored because like I don't speak Spanish or
Speaker 3: I can't read Chinese, therefore I don't know if this
Speaker 3: research is being done and therefore it just doesn't exist
Speaker 3: because the larger community is like, we all just think
Speaker 3: in English, like, so how do you like, you know
Speaker 3: specifically because you know, in hearing the description of your work,
Speaker 3: help me understand, like and the listeners too, like, of
Speaker 3: how we should be looking at these things from that
Speaker 3: also from that perspective too, because I think right now
Speaker 3: we're all caught up and.
Speaker 1: Like it's talking side at and it's not you.
Speaker 3: Know, hold on, like there are other subtleties that actually
Speaker 3: we should really think deeply about because to your point,
Speaker 3: I feel like those are the dimensions of an emerging
Speaker 3: technology or trend or something that gets ignored because to
Speaker 3: your point, it's like the thing, well, of course it's
Speaker 3: it's it's unequal, of course it's racist or whatever. But
Speaker 3: what are those like, what are those ways that people
Speaker 3: need to really be thinking about this technology?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think English language hegemony is a
Speaker 5: really good example of this broader problem of the more
Speaker 5: subtle kinds of exclusions that get built into these technologies,
Speaker 5: because I think we've all probably seen the cases of
Speaker 5: AI systems that have been really horrifically and explicitly racist
Speaker 5: or really horrifically sexist from you know, Tay, the chatbot
Speaker 5: that started spousing horrific right racist propaganda and had get
Speaker 5: taken down through to Amazon hiring tool that's systemically discriminated
Speaker 5: against female candidates. These are really I think avert depictions
Speaker 5: of the kinds of harms a I can do. But
Speaker 5: I think things like English language hegemony are also incredibly
Speaker 5: important for showing how existing kinds of exclusions and patterns
Speaker 5: of power get replicated in these tools. Because to an
Speaker 5: English language speaker, very crucially, they might use CHATGPT and
Speaker 5: think this is great, this is what my whole world
Speaker 5: looks like if they only speak English. Obvious to anyone
Speaker 5: who is not a native English speaker who doesn't only
Speaker 5: speak English, it's going to be an incredibly different experience.
Speaker 5: And that's where I think we see the benefits of
Speaker 5: these tools being really unequally distributed. I think it's also
Speaker 5: important because there's such exclusions in which kinds of languages
Speaker 5: and forms of communication can get translated into these systems. So,
Speaker 5: for example, I work with a linguists at the University
Speaker 5: of Newcastle and she talks about the fact that there's
Speaker 5: so many languages like signed languages and languages that don't
Speaker 5: have a written language, but they're never going to be
Speaker 5: translated into these tools and never going to benefit from them.
Speaker 5: You might think, Okay, well, do these communities want those
Speaker 5: languages translated into an AI tool? Maybe maybe not. I'd argue,
Speaker 5: of course, that's up to them. But those communities are
Speaker 5: still going to experience the negative effects of AI, like
Speaker 5: the climate coth of these tools. And so I think
Speaker 5: it's just really important, like you said, to think about
Speaker 5: what kinds of hegemony are getting further entrenched by AI
Speaker 5: powered technologies.
Speaker 2: All right, great, let's take a quick break and we'll
Speaker 2: come back.
Speaker 1: And finish up with a few questions. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: And we're back and all right, So, I mean, one
Speaker 2: thing that I want myself to just like get out
Speaker 2: of this conversation is just a sense of like ways
Speaker 2: that we like what we think AI might look like,
Speaker 2: how it might impact what the world around us looks
Speaker 2: like in the not too distant future. And we've we've
Speaker 2: already talked about like some ways that AI is being overrated,
Speaker 2: as like a autonomous killbot like terminator style kilbot. You know,
Speaker 2: there's there's some other examples like On one of the
Speaker 2: episodes of your podcast, an AI expert talks about getting
Speaker 2: an AI enhanced cancer scan and assuming the scan was
Speaker 2: like taking three D video and doing or doing like
Speaker 2: three D modeling, and it was just putting a box
Speaker 2: on a two D image. And I believe the guests
Speaker 2: like admits that they were influenced by like Hollywood movies,
Speaker 2: and it seems like that's what people who are trying
Speaker 2: to make money off of this one. So like that
Speaker 2: we're going to have this steady push to make us
Speaker 2: overrate misunderstand what the actual promise of AI is going
Speaker 2: to look like, how what tools are going to be
Speaker 2: given to us in the near future, and like what
Speaker 2: are those tools actually able to do? So I'd just
Speaker 2: be curious to hear from you, like what do you
Speaker 2: think ways that AI might intervene in our lives in
Speaker 2: the near future might already be intervening in our lives? Well,
Speaker 2: what are those things that we're underrating, like and what
Speaker 2: are the things that you think are probably taking up
Speaker 2: too much of our bandwidth in terms of how we're
Speaker 2: picturing AI.
Speaker 5: Oh, that's a great question. I think to start with
Speaker 5: the second half, to start with what I think is
Speaker 5: maybe a little bit overrated, or maybe we'll take a
Speaker 5: bit longer to pan out. I would say some of
Speaker 5: these really high tech applications, things like AI and medicine,
Speaker 5: for example, I think that we might not see them
Speaker 5: expand beyond a very narrow set of controlled circumstances. I
Speaker 5: think this idea that you know, soon every hospital will
Speaker 5: have this tool, or say AI in education, that every
Speaker 5: classroom is going to have access to this tool, I think,
Speaker 5: unfortun she's just really grossly overestimating the kinds of resources,
Speaker 5: but only in this country that schools and the hospitals have.
Speaker 5: I was talking to a friend who's a doctor here
Speaker 5: and she was saying, oh, well, what do you think
Speaker 5: about AI in medicine? And then she kind of stopped
Speaker 5: for a moment and just laughed and said, well, I
Speaker 5: don't know why I'm asking you that, because my hospital
Speaker 5: uses paper notes. And I said what, and she said, yeah,
Speaker 5: our whole hospital is not computerized. And that was a
Speaker 5: good reality check for me because it made me realize, like, wow, actually,
Speaker 5: some of the stuff that I'm thinking about is so
Speaker 5: far away from the reality of what people like my
Speaker 5: friend the doctor is having to deal with. On the ground,
Speaker 5: and same with schools. You know, here a whole hundreds
Speaker 5: of schools I think have had to be closed because
Speaker 5: there's some kind of issues with the concrete that I
Speaker 5: might collapse, which is a horrific but B is such
Speaker 5: a different level of infrastructural problem that thinking about AI
Speaker 5: in the classroom is really not on the radar that scenario.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, autonomous, it's like a low bar. Yeah, people like,
Speaker 5: what are students cheat? And you're like, look, yeah, you know.
Speaker 5: So those are things that I think and maybe a
Speaker 5: little bit on the overrated side. I think things are underrated,
Speaker 5: Like I'm really interested in how AI can change how
Speaker 5: we see the world and how we see ourselves, like
Speaker 5: I think, you know, take for example, something like TikTok.
Speaker 5: You know, I have to confess I'm a big TikTok user.
Speaker 5: I love grolling a lot of mind list diarbage. It
Speaker 5: brings me a lot of joy and peace. But even
Speaker 5: things like AI powered beauty filters, right, like, I think
Speaker 5: that has such a profound effect on how you just
Speaker 5: understand and see yourself and your own faith. They're often
Speaker 5: really imbued with gendered and racist kinds of assumptions, as well,
Speaker 5: I often look a lot whiter when I use a
Speaker 5: beauty filter, even though I'm multiracial. Like all of those assumptions,
Speaker 5: I think they get baked in that seep into our
Speaker 5: lives and like really suther ways, but I think collectively
Speaker 5: it can have quite a big impact.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was sorry, I was talking about the I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is technically AI, but then again,
Speaker 2: I don't know what AI is or if there's like
Speaker 2: a specific argument, but like the way that like iPhones
Speaker 2: take forty pictures like consecutively and then like choose the
Speaker 2: best one from the forty, and like the live photo
Speaker 2: setting like feels like a thing and like it's really
Speaker 2: good at it, and it's something that I had, like
Speaker 2: just it happened on my phone with like an update
Speaker 2: and I was like, yeah, this is just how you
Speaker 2: take pictures now, and like pictures are way better than
Speaker 2: they used to be. I think I saw somebody speculate
Speaker 2: that like some of the software like Photoshop and other
Speaker 2: things that have traditionally had sort of a difficult learning
Speaker 2: curve will suddenly get much easier for people to use.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I like those like having actual tools that
Speaker 2: are like kind of easy to use them, like very simple, straightforward.
Speaker 2: We know what the goal is here, and we're able
Speaker 2: to use these enhanced kind of programs to achieve that goal.
Speaker 2: Like that that feels more possible to me and like
Speaker 2: something that we we might see in the not too
Speaker 2: distant future.
Speaker 3: Totally, that's like a pitch you can understand, like this
Speaker 3: will make it easier for you to photoshop a friend
Speaker 3: out and just put someone else in. You're like, okay,
Speaker 3: rather than right now it's like this shit will end
Speaker 3: the world and you're like, well, what is it? I
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know, I don't know, but.
Speaker 1: It will fuck you up. And you're like, huh, and
Speaker 1: I guess that's such a different proposition up front and earlier,
Speaker 1: doctor Carry was saying like there are things that genuinely.
Speaker 3: Excite you about like this sort of like these everging
Speaker 3: technologies from I, and I would love to hear from
Speaker 3: your vantage point because you are looking at this and
Speaker 3: a like like what is ethical and what is going
Speaker 3: to bring meaningful value to people? Like what are those
Speaker 3: things that I can feel like, oh yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 3: can get down with that future.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean I recognize that I sound very doom
Speaker 5: and gloom a lot of the time that I speak,
Speaker 5: and all my friends have to deal with my sort
Speaker 5: of constant existential anxiety about technologies. But at the same time,
Speaker 5: you know, I'm an active user of a lot of them,
Speaker 5: Like I use a lot of voice dictation software, voice
Speaker 5: editing software, you know, for when we record our podcasts,
Speaker 5: and these things that genuinely make my life so much
Speaker 5: better and easier. I love being able to transcribe, you know,
Speaker 5: what I'm saying and have it appear on the screen
Speaker 5: and not have to type out my emails and have
Speaker 5: them a pair. I recognize you, they're like, all very boring.
Speaker 5: I should have said something like I DJ no, not
Speaker 5: at all, I write email using voice. It's very you know,
Speaker 5: but I think kind of, you know, extrapolating out from that,
Speaker 5: you know, there's really amazing applications accessibility, and when it
Speaker 5: comes to the kinds of access people can now have
Speaker 5: online because of advancements in aipowered tools, and so I think, though,
Speaker 5: you know, what's really central there is kind of that
Speaker 5: broader vision of you know, what is the kind of
Speaker 5: benefit this is meaningfully bringing to society, What problem is
Speaker 5: being solved? And are the people who are like most
Speaker 5: affected by that problem, the ones leading the conversation and
Speaker 5: saying what they need, because too often I think we
Speaker 5: see tech developers creating stuff that actually no one really
Speaker 5: asked for. I'm sure you have like all seen that
Speaker 5: thing on Amazon when you're like, you're asked for that
Speaker 5: banana holder or avocado peeler or something. And too often
Speaker 5: I think tech add on to be a little bit
Speaker 5: like that, Whereas I think when we have like really
Speaker 5: interesting conscious development of say, for example, feminist tools that
Speaker 5: are designed to encourage good conversations things like that, that
Speaker 5: really makes me excited about the kinds of futures we
Speaker 5: could have with technology.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: It almost feels like the danger here is when someone
Speaker 3: has like a technology and.
Speaker 1: Go and this is going to be in every home,
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is a sales pitch. Actually yeah, because.
Speaker 3: If you're not saying this is how we will work
Speaker 3: less and have more time to frolic, to enjoy our
Speaker 3: human existence, to connect with our families, then then like
Speaker 3: miss me with that because it reminds me of Crypto,
Speaker 3: it reminds me of the metaverse, and it reminds me
Speaker 3: of Zuckerberg being like every worker will have this fucking
Speaker 3: headset on no no, but nice fucking triasshole. And I
Speaker 3: feel like this is kind of like it has a
Speaker 3: similar tone of like, get ready, folks for this thing.
Speaker 3: And granted they have some a shiny toy in the
Speaker 3: form of these large language models that are fun to do,
Speaker 3: and really they're just skimming the Internet and just giving
Speaker 3: it to you in a nice, tidy sentence. But yeah,
Speaker 3: like I feel like that is just kind of like
Speaker 3: I'm seeing that dimension when you see the hype around it,
Speaker 3: which feels a little more like y'all are talking about
Speaker 3: this to make money, whereas the other things that you're
Speaker 3: talking about, like accessibility and trying to democratize certain applications.
Speaker 3: With things like that less there's less scale.
Speaker 1: Involved with something like that. So men, Yeah, hasn't.
Speaker 5: Talked about exactly, And I just think it's really important
Speaker 5: to recognize that, you know, I'm not saying that say
Speaker 5: things like spart home technology is like Amazon Alexa and
Speaker 5: things are like inherently bad products. I'm sure gips of
Speaker 5: people like love having those technologies in their home, they
Speaker 5: find them useful, But I just think whenever you bring
Speaker 5: in a new technology, you also bring a new vulnerabilities
Speaker 5: and you bring a new costs, and sometimes the hype
Speaker 5: wave means we focus on the benefits. You know, Oh,
Speaker 5: if you bring this to every home, everyone's life will
Speaker 5: be easier, if everyone will have a more seamless home experience,
Speaker 5: when actually that's not the case. There's real costs for
Speaker 5: bringing those tools into a lot of people's homes, everything from,
Speaker 5: for example, the way that certain kinds of elder care
Speaker 5: is getting replaced by technological tools in the UK care system,
Speaker 5: through to the fact that those tools can really easily
Speaker 5: be used for the purposes of domestic abuse, into a
Speaker 5: partner violence, It can be used to control or trap
Speaker 5: someone in their home. And these are really ugly truths
Speaker 5: about those technologies, and they're often not the ones that
Speaker 5: are at the heart of technology development. And so that's
Speaker 5: a lot of my job, I guess, is just to say,
Speaker 5: how do we put those vulnerabilities in, those costs at
Speaker 5: the forefront, and then judge holistically whether or not we
Speaker 5: really want this product to exist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but here's the thing, I got a lot of
Speaker 3: my stock portfolio tied up in these companies.
Speaker 1: I need these I need these fucking things to moon.
Speaker 1: If you know, what I mean.
Speaker 2: So I want to end the episode just doing something
Speaker 2: that you guys do on The Good Robot, which is
Speaker 2: talk talk about some like books that are recommended or
Speaker 2: you know what works you recommend. You know, you talk
Speaker 2: on an episode earlier, I think it was in the
Speaker 2: summer about how a lot of the ideas and fears
Speaker 2: and hopes that we have currently are very similar to
Speaker 2: what we've seen in movies and like those like when
Speaker 2: you look at Elon Musk's ten favorite books, they're all
Speaker 2: like fed by this same like Isaac aha as I
Speaker 2: am of like I robot thing I'd had a lot
Speaker 2: of Hubrick's ideas are around AI are go back to
Speaker 2: this very specific version of technology where it inevitably turns
Speaker 2: into a mean psychopath who is set on dominating all
Speaker 2: of humanity.
Speaker 1: So as an.
Speaker 2: Alternative, because we do like to talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: the importance of expanding our imagination, Like you know, with
Speaker 2: regards to climate, a lot of it is like either
Speaker 2: it's either apocalypse or business as usual capitalism. There's not
Speaker 2: like people have a hard time imagining the alternative on AI.
Speaker 1: On the subject of AI, like what are is there?
Speaker 2: First of all, is there any like mainstream kind of
Speaker 2: popular movie that you feel like, actually like that example
Speaker 2: of AI, like got it right? And then are there
Speaker 2: other kind of more obscure works that you would send
Speaker 2: people to in order to sort of feed their imagination
Speaker 2: of like what what a world with AI technology could
Speaker 2: look like?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean that question of the imagination and how
Speaker 5: our current imagination of AI is really narrow is super key,
Speaker 5: And you know, I think it's fascinating that, yes, you know,
Speaker 5: Musk and these folks have like a very narrow set
Speaker 5: of stories that they refer to. In those stories, it's
Speaker 5: always like, oh, the type of masculine take Bro makes
Speaker 5: an AI and then it looks like him and it
Speaker 5: takes over the world, and you're like, are you okay
Speaker 5: that you're like your bedtime story?
Speaker 2: Weird? The mean sociopath bent on world domination thinks that
Speaker 2: all AI is going to be a mean sociopath bent
Speaker 2: on world domination.
Speaker 1: That's so weird, right, Yeah?
Speaker 5: Who would have guessed that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean, and something that I really like
Speaker 5: our stories, particularly science fiction stories that I love sci
Speaker 5: fi and fantasy. I'm like a huge believer in like
Speaker 5: the way that it can help us imagine different worlds.
Speaker 5: In terms of like mainstream films, I guess the one
Speaker 5: that I comes to the top of my head is
Speaker 5: Big Hero six. So the Disney Pixar film where you
Speaker 5: have an AI powered kind of robot healthcare buddy called
Speaker 5: bay Max, And I think that's a really interesting example
Speaker 5: of an AI that you know, at one point in
Speaker 5: the film, he gets dressed up in armor and you know,
Speaker 5: the kid here to starts to try and use him
Speaker 5: as a kind of weapon. But like, this is an
Speaker 5: AI that so hasn't been designed to be a weapon,
Speaker 5: that kind of resists being weaponized a lot of ways,
Speaker 5: And in that sense, it's really countercultural to a lot
Speaker 5: of the AI we see in Western film and cinema,
Speaker 5: which is often very weaponized. It's often either this like
Speaker 5: kind of sexy cyborg figure or it's this hyper masculine
Speaker 5: terminator figure. Yeah, so I find bay Max is kind
Speaker 5: of gender lid and like.
Speaker 2: Just puffy balloon person. But it's also so accurate of
Speaker 2: what a young boy would do immediately with that is
Speaker 2: like weapon. It's like the tweet I can tell you
Speaker 2: me and my friends would have killed et with hammers.
Speaker 1: It's like.
Speaker 2: Little boys are monsters, but that's a great example.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in terms of like some alternative like stories and ideas,
Speaker 5: try to do a really shameless self plug But we
Speaker 5: have a book coming out called The Robot Why Technology
Speaker 5: Needs Feminism, and I'm plugging it because it's really beautiful.
Speaker 5: We worked with a science fiction illustrator because Sin John Lee,
Speaker 5: and there was myself and doctor Elinoaldrage, my co host.
Speaker 5: And the whole thing is these two thousand word essays.
Speaker 5: They're really short and really punchy by lots of different
Speaker 5: guests with had on the podcast, and they all respond
Speaker 5: to this idea of good technology dot dot dot. So
Speaker 5: it might be good technology is free or good technology,
Speaker 5: you know, challenges power, and the idea is you can
Speaker 5: just dip in read one. They're also illustrated, and then
Speaker 5: just dip out when you need a break or a moment.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I really would encourage you to pick that
Speaker 5: up because it just contains the most incredible feminist philosophers,
Speaker 5: technologists and vendors, activists who are really pushing forward different
Speaker 5: ideas of the kinds of technological futures we could have.
Speaker 5: I mean, apart from that, I read a lot of
Speaker 5: like Chinese diaspora Asian American sci fi as well, particularly
Speaker 5: sci fi that's like thinking a lot about the climate
Speaker 5: crisis and AI and the intersections of that, and so
Speaker 5: I think a lot of those stories have really interesting
Speaker 5: and different perspectives on what AI is. It can be
Speaker 5: from like Elliott de Badad's work, which explores, you know,
Speaker 5: the relationships between like humans and sentient mind shifts in
Speaker 5: this base opera universe, through the like lyrical lized Fultfish Girl,
Speaker 5: which is like a very dystopian imagining of like a
Speaker 5: future society based on labor from clones. Like all of
Speaker 5: these novels, I think just as they're like a lot
Speaker 5: more love and a lot more could ask, they're just
Speaker 5: absolutely interesting and imaginative, been gorgeous ideas about the future.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 2: Well, this has been such a fascinating conversation. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for taking the time. At what I have
Speaker 2: to assume is midnight where you.
Speaker 1: Are right now? It's almost nine?
Speaker 2: Almost nine, Okay, yeah, that's too late. Well, thank you
Speaker 2: doctor McNerney for doing this show. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1: Follow you? Hear you all that good stuff?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me on. It's
Speaker 5: been a bluff. Yeah, check out the Good Robot. We're
Speaker 5: on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and then keep an eye out
Speaker 5: for the book coming in February twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Yeah, we'll have to have you back for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And is there a work of media that
Speaker 2: you've been.
Speaker 5: Enjoying ooh, media in terms of like a show.
Speaker 2: Like a pot show, a podcast, book and tweet.
Speaker 5: Oh. I feel like I shoul choose something like really intellectual.
Speaker 5: But I actually just sent my husband this tweet that
Speaker 5: really got me because very me, which is it was
Speaker 5: it's actually a bit dark, but with this news headline
Speaker 5: about this hiker had been missing and the rescuers couldn't
Speaker 5: get in contact with them and they didn't get rescued
Speaker 5: for twenty four hours because they wouldn't answer their phone.
Speaker 5: It was an unknown number. And this is just exactly me,
Speaker 5: like my husband like please fuck you know what, I'm like,
Speaker 5: I will not I will not answer it under a number.
Speaker 5: So that brought me a little bit of joy today.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I feel like that's a great way the
Speaker 2: great example of how technology has marched forward and completely
Speaker 2: ruined like something that used to work, phone communication, but
Speaker 2: we can't answer our phones anymore because the fucking spots, Miles,
Speaker 2: where can people find you? What's a work media you've
Speaker 2: been enjoying?
Speaker 3: Yeah at Miles of Gray wherever they got at. I'm
Speaker 3: there soon to Blue Sky, shout out Ill Will Christy Main. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you and you and I were hopping in okay codes
Speaker 3: we got we got the invite.
Speaker 1: Just check out the Blue Sky. So yeah there shortly.
Speaker 1: I'll also check Jack and Eye out on our basketball podcast.
Speaker 3: Miles and jackot Man Maps. Please check me out on
Speaker 3: my ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty Day Fiance and
Speaker 3: also the true crime show The Good Thief, which has
Speaker 3: all episode eight episodes out, so.
Speaker 1: Please stream those binge those talking about the Greek robin Hood,
Speaker 1: the man who legitimately was kidnapped millionaires and doing some
Speaker 1: old fashioned wealth redistribution in a positive way, never hurting
Speaker 1: people either, never hurting people, like again, an ethical criminal,
Speaker 1: if there is such a thing. Some tweets I like.
Speaker 3: First one is from you know, shout out to the
Speaker 3: WGA and all the negotiators, because it looks like the
Speaker 3: WGA strike is they're close to getting something ratified, so
Speaker 3: we like that. This tweet is from Jeff Yang at
Speaker 3: Original Spin tweeted just underscoring how WGA negotiators told the
Speaker 3: studios the union wouldn't go back to work until SAG
Speaker 3: also has a deal, because if the last five months
Speaker 3: proved anything, it's in together, win together. And there's this
Speaker 3: snippet from it might be a deadline, but it says quote.
Speaker 1: The studios also.
Speaker 3: Inquired if once a tentative agreement is ratified by the scribes,
Speaker 3: if the writers would pick up their pens and hit
Speaker 3: their keyboards again. Very soon afterwards, the guild, from what
Speaker 3: we understand, made it clear that they would not be
Speaker 3: going back to work until SAG Aftra also had a
Speaker 3: new agreement with the AMPTP. Reflective of the w w
Speaker 3: GA's feeling of solidarity between the two unions that has
Speaker 3: characterized their first mutual strikes in nineteen sixty love the
Speaker 3: solidarity and I know AYATSI is also going to have
Speaker 3: a contract that is going to need to be renegotiated
Speaker 3: next year. And it looks like guess what, folks, they did.
Speaker 1: It only listen to one thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, putting your fucking putting the tools down. Put the
Speaker 3: tools down to pick them other tools up, which is
Speaker 3: getting in your solidarity back, so we'd love to see that.
Speaker 3: And another tweet I like is from t Pain at
Speaker 3: t Pain just put bartender just doing her job.
Speaker 1: Me just this prudo of Kevin James at the butt
Speaker 1: of Kevin James. That's going fucking rugged, but it is drugging,
Speaker 1: like trying to be like, hey, hey, can I get
Speaker 1: your eye content?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Just a just a ginger beer if you can. Those
Speaker 1: are my tools.
Speaker 2: Tweet I've been enjoying at BRNBNE. I don't know how
Speaker 2: to pronounce that, but their display name is bbb bbbb
Speaker 2: space BBBBBBB, which I have.
Speaker 1: To assume stands for.
Speaker 2: Bone bone bone bone bone boom bone boom boom. But
Speaker 2: the tweet I usually don't use for my tweet, the
Speaker 2: ones that things that I've retweeted, but this one got
Speaker 2: me so much I had to reshare it. The tweet
Speaker 2: is what if you went to ET's planet and all
Speaker 2: of the other ets were wearing clothes.
Speaker 1: That really, oh, really fucked up? How I thought about Et? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yo what?
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien,
Speaker 2: and on threads at Jack Underscore, Oh Underscore, Brian, and
Speaker 2: on Blue Skill. I'll have a username there eventually soon
Speaker 2: and you can find us on Twitter at daily szeikeist
Speaker 2: d daily Zekeist on Instagram.
Speaker 1: We have a Facebook fan page.
Speaker 2: On a website daily zeikes dot com where we post
Speaker 2: our episodes and our footnote. We off to the information
Speaker 2: that we talked about in today's episode, as well as
Speaker 2: a song that we think you might enjoy. Myles, what's
Speaker 2: the song people might enjoy?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: This is an artist Detroit's very own John FM, and
Speaker 3: I just figure out what an appropriate title. It's called
Speaker 3: White Science h And the track is like very It
Speaker 3: feels like if, like like I don't know, like if
Speaker 3: Prince was making shit in like the late nights. It
Speaker 3: has like a frinsy vibe like it's frincy and it's
Speaker 3: kind of got this like vocal modulator on it that
Speaker 3: feels a little bit princey. So and also it's just
Speaker 3: a really good track. So this is John FM with
Speaker 3: White Science.
Speaker 2: That's what Jack FM's mom calls him when he's in trouble.
Speaker 1: John FM, get in here now.
Speaker 2: The Daily Zeitge is in production by Heart Radio. For
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio is the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 2: Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That
Speaker 2: is gonna do it for us this morning, back this
Speaker 2: afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we'll talk
Speaker 2: to you all then.
Speaker 1: Bye bye,