WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend-October 3, 2020 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.480 This is Bloomberg Business With with Carol Masser and Jason 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.840 Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Carol Masser. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.399 Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week Week 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.440 twenty nine, mostly working from home, full of politics and 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.680 policy talk, job cuts and setbacks, more concerns about the recovery, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.840 and businesses and education finding their way back. Jason, we 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.880 talked a lot about that, also how to forge better 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.840 paths to getting back. Yeah, the getting back and the 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.200 better paths. I feel like really stuck with us this 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.560 week because we had a lot of smart thinkers joining 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.120 us to underscore the fact that things are going to 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.920 be different. They're already different. And in fact, we caught 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:41.680 up with the author of a new book. Her name 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.440 is my l gave the book Trampled by Unicorns, big 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.600 text empathy problem and how to fix it, a really 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.720 really important subject. Absolutely. Plus one thing I've learned is 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.760 that in crisis, that's a great opportunity to learn and 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.320 grow and you have to lean into it. Whole Foods 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.040 Market CEO and co founder John Acky He too has 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.160 a book out Conscious Leadership. So staying with this theme, 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.560 it's all about elevating business through humanity. And then we 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.520 also caught up with PBS PRESIDENCYO Paula Kerger Band. They 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.320 are getting ready to celebrate a big anniversary. But first 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.080 let's take you to the cover story. It's all about testing. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.679 Where we've been, where we're going. Check it out with 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.880 Bloomberg News Health reporter Michelle Cortez and Bloomberg Business Week 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.399 editor Joe Weber. We set out to do this story because, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.400 you know, we've we've spent a lot of time talking 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:36.720 about vaccines and the hope that they could the hope 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.520 that they can get us out of this mess right 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.039 and give us back a semblance of the life we 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.440 had before the virus and what we what we also 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.000 started to realize, what was that, you know, if we 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.640 actually got our act together and got um some abilities 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:56.840 to do accurate fast testing, there's a way to actually 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.640 have a semblance of normalcy again before that vaccine, which 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.120 still could be a ways off. And that was sort 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.960 of what Michelle and her co author Drake Bennett dove 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.760 into for this week's cover story. It was sort of like, what, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.639 exactly how close to having a decent fast test are 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.520 we exactly. And you know what what implications could that have? 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.680 I mean, I want to go to restaurants and send 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.919 my kid back to school and all those great things, 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.880 and like what you know, is there a version of 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.520 reality that might look like that? And and how do 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.720 we get there? Like now? And Michelle, why don't you 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.320 pick it up there and and tell us how close 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.440 to a version of reality like that are we? So 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.000 we do see that there is ways where things can 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.320 happen somewhat in a semblance of normalcy. Right any of 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.359 these sports events that were watching, we can see that 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.400 they are on top of it. They know who's positive, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.760 they know how to knock it down, you know, put 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.680 everybody under quarantine and whatnot and keep it under control. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.520 The question is do you do that for an entire 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.400 country of three and thirty million people? And the answer 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.360 is that it is theoretically possible, but it is going 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.640 to take a huge amount of effort on behalf of 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.240 our government, on behalf of the diagnostic test makers who 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.600 are now starting to bring all these very cool new 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.120 products to the market, and honestly, on behalf of American 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.799 people who maybe don't want to wear masks. But if 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.800 you get a positive test, You've got to stay home, Michelle. 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.920 This is about seeing the spread of the virus, you know, 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.079 and anything close to real time. This is what we're 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.800 shooting for, right I do wonder though, with everybody so 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:39.760 obsessed and focused on getting a vaccine rightfully, so, you know, 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.720 do we have the wherewithal among regulators, the f d A, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.160 and then the companies that need to produce these things, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:52.040 you know, in mass quantities. There is absolutely going to 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.960 be a huge lift when it comes to this. The 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.360 the industry that's working on it, of course, they this 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.960 is what they do, and that's what the story goes into. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.640 And you know, Joel and h and Drake Bennett, what 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.960 a fabulous writer he is. Um did a really great 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.920 job in making sure that we not only look at 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.960 what is happening here, but what also has to happen 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.680 in order for it to come to fruition. I don't 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.400 I personally don't think that people are gonna are gonna 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.840 not do it. Like I think there's questions about whether 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.880 or not people will get vaccinated, but if there were 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.039 tests available, I think the vast majority of Americans would 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.120 take one as often as we give it to them. 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.200 So the industry I think is going to do it. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.640 The question is is how cheap can it be and 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.000 how can we get available to everybody who needs it 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.280 in order to make a difference with the amount of 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.520 virus we have in the country. And that's the point, 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.760 And Michelle, let's I want to dwell on sort of 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.560 the technical aspects of what these rapid COVID tests look like. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.479 They're not the same thing as you know, putting a 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.719 swab up your nose, right, Like. The whole point of 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.080 this is that actually there's a there's a different way 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.279 that we could be testing and that that's what allows 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.800 us to do it cheaper, better, faster. What is what 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.440 are the mechanics of this testing look like? Well, the 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.240 beauty of this story actually is that it looks broadly 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.360 across all the different technologies that we're talking about. And 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.520 one of the things that I was most frustrated about 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.919 in terms of how people have been covering testing generally, 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.960 is that there is kind of this pollyanna ish approach 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.040 of if we were just willing to make the effort, 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.240 we could do it, and in fact that's not the 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.320 case when it comes to what you're talking about. Jason, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.760 I think you're talking about the lateral flow tests, which 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.240 are like the pregnancy test, and in fact, what we 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.000 have right now, you still do to do a nasal swab. 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.359 But the thing is you could do it yourself. You know, 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.039 you put it up your nose. That's what adds bynex now, 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.320 is you put it up your nose, you stick it 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.919 into the pregnancy test, you exquise a little bit of 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.600 buffer on it, and which is a liquid, and then 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:53.760 that just carries that little spiral, you know, the genetics 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:55.720 from what's inside your nose that carried it along with 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.960 the little strips, and if there's antigen essentially the virus 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.839 in that sample that you took, it carries it down 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:08.320 that pathway towards the towards the towards the antibodies that 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.200 would normally be fighting a virus if it was in 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.160 your body, but they've instead just attached it to the strips. 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.000 And if those two things clicked together, a little flag 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.160 popped up, a little nanoparticle of gold appears, and then 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.800 you know you're positive. And that was Bloomberg News Health 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.919 reporter Michelle Cortez and Bloomberg Business Week editor Joe Weber 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.000 coming up more on the virus from someone who looks 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.400 at it through two lenses as a doctor and also 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:35.240 head of a school. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.320 Business with Carol Messer and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. Carol, 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.000 so many headlines when it came to COVID nineteen. This week, 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.320 President Trump and the first lady testing positive for the coronavirus. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.880 This after one of their top aids, Hope Hicks, was 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.120 confirmed positive as well. You saw that news first via 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.880 Bloomberg News Global confirmed deaths topping one million. London at 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.360 a tipping point because of an uptick in cases, and 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.360 we also saw an increasing cases in parts of New 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.000 York City. So we turned to one of our experts, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.440 several experts across the week, but this particular guy, Dr 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.440 Sandro Galia. He's the dean of the Boston University School 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.240 public Health. He talked about that public health aspect and 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.920 how important it is. And we should note we talked 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.800 to Dr Galia earlier in the week before that positive 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.560 test was revealed on the part of the president. But 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.240 we as a university have been reopening cautiously, carefully, with 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.440 a lot of testing, a lot of contact tracing a 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.720 lot of isolation as needed, and really working hard to 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.920 keep the community safe well also working on our mission 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.840 and continuing teaching and containing our research. And it's a 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.920 tough balance. I think it's a tough balance for everybody, 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.760 and and it's part of I think a broader societal 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.440 place where we are at, where we are recognizing that 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.480 we are living with COVID for some time now and 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.600 uh and we cannot afford to keep our world slow 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.160 down because there are important things that we have to do. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.720 And so give us a sense of that balance, Dr Galia, like, 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.800 what is something where you feel like you've found it 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:16.200 in terms of either staffing or class size or doing labs, Like, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.680 give us an example of where you feel like, Okay, 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.720 well this this feels about as good as we can get. Well, Jason, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.640 I think I don't think I feel confident telling you 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.160 anything as good as a camp. I think I think 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.080 everything is a working progress. Don't let's talk at bit 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:34.000 about what we're doing. So we as a university are 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:38.120 testing people extensively, about five to six thousand tests a 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.720 day happening, so students are tested multiple times a week. 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.600 We have a lot of people who are involved able 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.400 in the testing, but then also somebody tests positive and 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.800 the contact racing to see who they've been in contact with. Right, 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:52.640 So the idea is, and we had discussed this before 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.840 in our previous conversations, the idea with testing is that 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.719 you catch a case early so that it does not 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.280 become a cluster that does not then continue the atack. 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.079 So you find the case, you do contact tracing, you 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.160 find the people around that case, you quarantine those people, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.800 and you isolate the case. And of course all of 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:15.360 that is superimposed over a very strict regiment of building hygiene, 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.160 and by that I mean ventilation and the building wiping 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.400 down surfaces, a very strong public campaign for people to 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.960 remain safe, wearing masks, making sure that people are not 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.560 in if they're sick, and every day doing symptoms screens 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.920 for everybody. So it really is a fairly comprehensive effort, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.800 and it is in some respects I think the challenges 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.120 that it's a comprehensive effort that has to happen now 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.720 and has to keep happening really for weeks and months 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.600 until there is a definitive vaccine for COVID. Talk to 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.959 me about contact tracing, because I feel like we are 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:55.560 getting very mixed results, mixed reviews in terms of people 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.439 essentially saying yep, I'm not going to cooperate, it's voluntary. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.800 I'm not going to tell you either I don't want 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.080 to get in trouble because I was at a party, 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.839 or I feel like it's an invasion of my privacy. 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.720 How do you manage that? Well, in some respects, I 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:15.319 think it's easier to manage that within a closed system 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.360 of one institution versus in the general population. Right so, 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.160 in our in our system, in our system, we have 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.600 been very clear that this is part of the cost 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.400 of citizenship. If you're if you're going to be part 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.360 of the community, you have responsibility to work towards keeping 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.200 others safe. And part of that responsibility is if you 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.600 test positive, is that you talk to the contact traders 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.040 and you tell them who you've been in contact with, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.480 so that they can reach out to those people and 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.760 make sure we keep them safe as well. It's harder 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.800 to do that in the general population. There's not a 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.320 lot of reports about fifty people in general population answer 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.840 and talk to contact traitors. That's that's in the general 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:50.920 population where I think there isn't as much of a 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.920 sense of shared responsibility from one another there should be. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.240 I'm just reflecting on probably what's going out there. Yeah, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:58.880 now that's a big part of it. I mean, Jason, 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:00.600 you and I've talked about it. And when my daughter 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.240 got together with some classmates at the end of the 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.880 summer and we had kind of quarantined her for months, 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.960 you know, we as families went into it saying, Okay, 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:10.880 what have you been doing, Who's getting tested? You know, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.200 like there was this sense of community to make sure 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.400 everybody stayed safe. And I feel like, you know, there 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.720 not everybody's on the same page with that. Also, to 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.960 be fair and Dr Glaire, you understand that not everybody 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.160 can be on the same page. There are some people 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.000 that you know, if they don't go to work, they 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.599 don't get paid in it, they're in a tougher predicament. 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.679 And I just, you know, I just well, I think, 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:34.920 I mean, this is why, this is why Carol, I 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.480 think the reopening is so important. I think it's a 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:39.560 you know, the data are very clear, for example, that 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.400 your chances of being able to work from home are 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:46.520 much higher if you're in the top quartile of income. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.360 So people who are who are who have to go 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.480 to work are people who are already making less income. 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.760 We know that it overlaps with race, right. We know 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.000 that the disproportionate burned off COVID in many respects was 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.120 because we expose people that low income, people of color, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.760 often to work before we understood how COVID works. But 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.880 the the economic shutdown, I feel like the public conversation 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.080 about the economic slowdown hasn't been fair because to be 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.679 to be frank, it's been it's been directed by people 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:17.120 whose lifelihoods that not really at risk from economic slowdown 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:18.880 because they can work from home. But the fact is 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.880 more than half the population cannot work from home. So 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.720 if we if we if we say, if we take 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.280 the premise that's well, we should reduce the risk of 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.120 COVID at all costs. Well, do we really mean at 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:31.920 all costs or do we mean at all costs to 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:33.960 somebody else? I think we need to be honest with that, 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.640 and and and economic slowdowns hurt people who are already 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.600 at the low end of making income, and that is 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.760 something that we as a society have a responsibilities try 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:44.360 to avoid as much as possible. To get back to 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.480 our conversation with Dr Sandra Galia, dean at the Boston 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.040 University School of Public Health, also the author of the book, 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.000 pained uncomfortable conversations about the public's health. So let's talk 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.720 about the public's health, Dr Galia. What can we be 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.960 doing before we get to the other side of this. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.880 What should we be doing to ensure that we don't 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.240 lose sight of these inequalities that have been laid bare 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.760 by this pandemic All Jason, I think what the pandemic 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:14.680 has shown us, and I like your use of the 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.360 term laid there. It has shown us the inequalities that 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.880 existed already before the pandemic. The country is really shaped 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.480 by deep socio economic inequalities and deep racial inequalities, and 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.600 those inequalities have held analogs just like we have haves 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.199 and have not. We have held haves and have not 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.319 around those two acts. Now, the the pandemic revealed that 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.760 we have Black Americans have two and a half times 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.960 greater risk of dying during COVID than white Americans, and 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.479 that is largely due to the double whammy of one 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.600 greater burden of disease among the Black Americans had convered 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.640 to white Americans, and number two that a disproportionate number 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.120 of them work in what we came to call sort 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.199 of essential work, frontline work, work that exposed them to 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.520 get in COVID. So to my mind, what COVID is 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.560 now letting us see what was already there for us 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.920 to see how to be looked for. And that's Dr 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.880 sandro Gal. He's also the dean of the Boston University 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.560 School of Public Health. Love catching up with him because 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.520 I feel like he twists the prison just a bit 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.080 for us, Carol, getting us beyond the headlines and to 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.600 really understand some of the underlying economic effects that we 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.840 need to be concerned about. So, Jason, he's talking about realignment. 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.200 So too is our next guest. We'll hear about Trampled 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.640 by Unicorns. It's a new book about big text empathy problem. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.360 We'll talk with the author. That's coming up next. This 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:37.840 is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business with with Carol Masser 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.920 and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. So, Carol, I'd like 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:43.800 to think there was a little bit more humanity in 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.280 a lot of our conversations this week. We talked a 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.480 lot about economics and business, but also talked about things 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.200 including empathy. Yeah, we did, and that more human elements 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.600 certainly came through. With one of our guests, we caught 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.920 up with global tech executive my El Gave just get 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.160 a new book out, Jason Trampled by Unicorns, Big tex 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.800 empathy problem and how to fix it. I really wanted 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.400 to have to really big conversation. I would want to 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.080 have a conversation about where we are right now, because 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.520 I felt like a lot of what I was reading 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:19.000 in the media or in books was extremely one sided. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.800 It was usually UM saying either tech is amazing or 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.320 tech is horrible, and I was reading all of that 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.640 and saying, no, there's some good, there's some bad, and 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.720 there's some ugly. And I'd like us to have a 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.440 really exhausted view on where do we stand, what are 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.560 the good things that happened, and what are the things 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.000 we need to fix, and really try to go to 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.080 the core of why we have a deficit of empathy 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.880 in the technical system. And then once we uh, we 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.880 align on how we got where we are and why 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.440 um and and and why we are where we are uh, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.960 then I wanted to really focus on solutions. I'm a 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.520 I'm a solution oriented person. I'm very optimistic in general, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.960 and I wanted to have a conversation about what we 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.200 can do and we being a very broad we like 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.480 we the tech executive, tech employees that the group I 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.520 belonged to, I mean worked in tex for fifteen years. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.680 But we as also as users, we as investors, we 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.600 as governments and regulators, and I thought that there was 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.560 a role for every one of us to play in 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:29.240 really making tech um an instrument to advance humanity even 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.960 more than it has been so far. So let's talk 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.120 about the deficit if we can have the starting point, 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.600 Because you know what you point out in this book, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.640 we have all really seen, I feel like, come to 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:45.680 the four in a troubling way, especially over the past 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.640 few years. Even before I think we entered into this 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:54.000 broader social and societal reckoning around inequality, we knew there 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.280 was a problem in tech. How do we get here? Well, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.520 that's a big question, UM. I think that we got 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:10.240 here through a complex set of um of things related 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.280 to tech. I think tech is very insular from a 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.679 cultural perspective, was very strong tribal myths. I talked in 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.399 my book about many of them. One of them is 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.600 what I call the Steve Job syndrome. UH, this idea 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.480 that to be a genius you somehow have to be 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.760 a jerk. Like the two are kind of really related. Uh, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:36.000 this idea that technology is neutral, UM, the myaths of 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.000 perfect meritocracy, Like if you raised throughout the ranks of technology, 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.520 it's because you're that good at your job, and if 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.000 you're not, this is because you're not that good at 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.000 your job. And so that really created an industry which 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.479 in many aspects is very closed UM and has a 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.639 hard time because of a lack of diversity, has a 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.200 hard time to be empathetic to the rest of the world. 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.400 And when you're not empathetic, it's a big it's hard 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.720 for you to really understand the impact that you're having 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.280 on the world. So that's one very strong, very strong issue. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.240 The second one I've just mentioned it is the lack 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:13.199 of diversity, women represent less and absurdive management UH and 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.439 tech roles in big tech UH and racial minorities in 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.040 general less than ten percent of management UH and way 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.520 less than ten percent in text so tech tech jobs. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.560 And then I think the last one is UM what 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:32.400 I would call a lack of accountability UM and it's 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.920 because we we as as tech people we be we've 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.840 so strongly that we were on our path on the 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.760 past to change the world, that if there were some 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.240 bumps on the road, if there were some mistake made, 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:47.800 it didn't really matter because we were working towards the 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.960 greater good. And I think because of that, and then 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.159 also the fact that the regulator didn't always understand what 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.600 it is that we were doing, and I think the 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:01.960 users got really a maze by all the free services 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.760 that they get that they got. I think the combination 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.960 of all of that created this environment where uh tech 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.840 companies could pretty much do anything they wanted without having 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.919 to really be accountable. And that's obviously changing now. But 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.040 I think if you combine this cultural installarity, the lack 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.240 of diversity, and the lack of accountability, you end up 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.200 where we are right now. So somebody like a Mark 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:29.000 Zuckerberg good bad, how do you see him? Um? I 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.320 think every person has some good and some bad. I 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.320 think it's clearly a business business genius, and it's really 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.760 strong at building a want in a lifetime company. I think, 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.080 to use the wording that one of my previous company, 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.679 BCG used, there may be some areas for improvements around 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.360 empathy and connection to people. And that's my El gave 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.359 her new book, Trampled by Unicorns, big text empathy problem, 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.400 how to fix it? Really a key part of our 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.879 theme this week, Carol, because we're all wrestling with where 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.640 we go from here. We know we as a society, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.080 we as individuals are changed by what we have seen 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.720 and experience through this pandemic and through a lot of 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.760 the things going on in our world. It's going to 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.159 change how we work. You're right, Jason, and folks like 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.160 my El gave, she may have been inspired by another leader. 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.760 We're talking about Whole Foods Market CEO and co founder 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.440 John Mackie. We're going to get through this, and probably 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.720 a lot sooner than people think. Mackie's got a new 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.080 book out, Conscious Leadership, Elevating Business through Humanity. Jason, We're 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.120 going to talk about that. That's coming up next. It's 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:37.360 a fun conversation. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.200 with with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.359 In the magazine. This week, we've got another edition of 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.919 Business Week Talks with John Mackie. He's CEO and co 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.879 founder of Whole Foods. Whole Foods Jason as you know 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.320 now and it's third year as a part of Amazon. Well, 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.359 John's got a new book out. It's called Conscious Leadership 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.960 Elevating Humanity through Business. We started off though, talking about 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.879 some of the challenges of the pandemic twenties the weirdest 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:03.760 year of my life. I don't know about you, but 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.920 it's definitely the wordest year. And I mean Whole food 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.440 has done a lot better than other businesses because we 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.000 weren't we weren't shut down. We were an essential business, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.479 and we saw our sales go up and our online 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.439 sales went way up. But it's been incredibly stressful in 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.600 the company. Make no mistake about that. People didn't lose 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:28.119 their jobs, but it's been we have we've had to 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.200 go to mask for everybody's wearing mask and we've had 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.680 we we haven't been able to connect with the team 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.159 members as much because you know, lockdown, not traveling, not 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.160 being able to visit the stores, A lot of safety 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:46.320 measures been put in place. Um it's been you know, 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.600 we just did a cultural compass survey and we see 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.240 that it's been very stressful in the team members. So 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.920 that has been a challenge for us, but again less 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.560 of a challenge for whole foods and many like a 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.399 restaurant owner who's more or less been put out of business, 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:06.800 so very very difficult times. And I will tell you 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.640 I am very much looking forward to COVID being done 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.000 when that will be, But it will be I'm gonna 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:17.480 be celebrating along with everybody else, that's for sure. So John, 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.880 I guess, on the subject of your book and sort 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.600 of synthesizing all of this, what's the key leadership lesson 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.320 UH coming through this? And we're not through it yet 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.560 by any stretch. But what have you learned about leading? 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.080 What have you learned about how to lead? Uh in 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:40.480 a situation like this? You mean in COVID. In COVIDH gosh. 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:45.200 I mean COVID is a great example of, UH, how 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.280 you can learn and grow in a crisis. In a crisis, 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.480 the general reaction people have when they're in crisis to 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:55.639 sort of look for a safe place, a safe harbor, 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.359 someplace that uh they don't they're not going to be 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.720 um safe. But one thing I've learned is that in crisis, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.679 that's a great opportunity to learn and grow and you 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:08.840 have to lean into it. You have to kind of 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.000 instead of going back to a safe place, you've got 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.760 to open wider to see what lessons are there. And 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.240 you have to face your fears. And one of the 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.000 things that I learned is that Whole Foods has a 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:25.560 very deep culture because we we've been making cultural deposits 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.119 for a long time, and but during COVID we've been 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.679 making a lot of cultural withdrawals. But we're not bankrupt 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.360 because we've got so many deposits that have been made. However, 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.760 as COVID goes on longer and longer, and we're not 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:42.080 able to make more deposits. And in connecting with people, 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:44.800 I just you know, I mean, a company is ultimately 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:49.040 about relationships and about trust and about partnership. And the 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:51.960 hardest thing in COVID, I think has been the difficulty, 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:56.480 other than virtually to connect with people. And uh we 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.200 we we read all about people working at home them 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.960 and and a lot of corporations are not going to 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:06.560 go back fully, but I don't believe that. I mean, 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.720 more people may work at home when COVID's over, But 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.840 in reality, if you're going to maintain a culture, you 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:16.520 have to have people connecting with each other, and there's 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:19.199 no real substitute for doing that in person. So I've 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.040 learned that clo culture is resilient, but I've also learned 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:25.760 that it's we we need. We need that personal connection 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.119 to no. I think you were right about that, you know, Jason, 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.760 I've had John so many different conversations because we're seeing, 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.160 certainly the financial community it seems like really stepping up 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:37.760 and really kind of urging their teams to come back 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:39.720 to work in New York City. But I think it's 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:42.199 a comfort level and people are just not comfortable. And 0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:45.520 it's not that people don't want to be working with colleagues. Um, 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:48.479 we're social creatures. But I think there is a fear. 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:51.480 I mean we for most of us, right, we have 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:57.680 never seen something like this. It's true, Um, and maybe 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.560 people won't be comfortable until we have vaccination that people 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:05.800 feel safe and taking. But in truth, I think the 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.840 concept of herd immunities it's beginning to work its way 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:12.960 through the United States. It's worked its way through Sweden 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.480 at this point. If you look at their recent death rates, 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:18.160 there's just a few people a week now, not not 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:22.159 not hundreds or thousands of people days, three or four 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.399 a week. So we're going to get through this, and 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:28.360 probably a lot sooner than people think. I'd be very 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:32.200 surprised if a year from now we have not returned 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:37.720 to semi normalcy, and people will be afraid. But as 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:39.920 as their friends go out and report back, Hey, it's 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.320 safe out there. Nobody's people aren't getting sick, and and 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.680 people will start to tentatively venture out, probably being wearing 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:50.240 masks more. But uh, that might be a while before 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:54.040 people are completely back, but they will be because we 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.080 are who we are. We're social creatures. And you know, 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.880 I remember, I'm old enough to remember I had lots 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:04.240 of friends, not lots. I had a few friends back 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:07.560 in elementary school. They got polio. Um, I want to 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:09.200 ask you, John, I mean, here we are a few 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:13.359 years in, you know with Amazon, how's it going? What? 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:19.280 What has worked really well for you? It's going very well. 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:24.720 A big merger between two big companies is a little 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.639 bit like a marriage. I like that metaphor, And I mean, 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:31.480 I've been married for thirty years and I I blot 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:35.639 my wife and I love, you know, maybe of everything 0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:39.439 about her, and I'm not too fond of and I 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:42.639 think a merger similar. I mean, Amazon has a different 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:46.880 culture than Whole Foods. We overlap in some areas, and uh, 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:49.439 we love most things about Amazon, and they probably love 0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:51.960 most things about Whole Foods, but you know, not everything. 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:56.280 And and what's worked really well is Amazon thinks long 0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.320 term and they're enabling whole foods market to think long term. 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:04.080 We've had three major price reductions were beginning of fourth um. 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:07.040 They're making investments in technology for Whole Foods that I 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:09.800 think will be transformative, although I'm sorry I can't talk 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:14.320 about those. And they've been respectful of our culture. They 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:18.360 haven't tried to just turn us into Amazon. So if 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:20.440 I that the best way to ask that question is, 0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:22.000 is John, if you could do it all over again 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.120 when you make the same decision and the answers, yes, 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:26.439 we make the same decision. It was the right decision 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:28.639 for us. I have to tell you A listener is 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:31.080 writing in and said, could you just ask John Mackie, 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:33.600 could they please please please open the Whole Foods in 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:38.159 the Hampton's in the Hampton's. Yeah, We've We've received a 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:40.879 lot of requests for that. It's it's a very seasonal 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.399 sort of market out there, and Uh, we'll get there eventually. 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:48.840 He go that the question answered, Well, one thing I 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:50.439 wanted to ask you, I think our team was was 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:54.000 curious about, is you guys Whole Foods. I spent a 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:56.320 couple I spent I did kind of a deep dive 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:59.160 into your company a few years ago and with Walter 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:01.800 rob who is co CEO at the time. I spent 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:05.360 time with a forager just how you guys work with companies, 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:09.040 support companies to help them build out either production, you know, 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:11.119 so that they can you know, once you find an 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.320 item that you want in your stories. You guys have 0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:17.000 such a value system, you know, and and you really 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:19.840 stick to selling just certain types of things. And to 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:22.080 be fair, if you go onto Amazon, you can buy 0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:26.080 just about anything, um it feels like and that they'll 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.760 sell just about anything to anyone. You know. How have 0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:33.760 those values clashed if at all? You know? And how 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:37.320 do you kind of get your head around that. I 0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:40.040 don't think those values half clashed. And I think you're right. 0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:44.240 Health Foods is we're very um, you know, we're very 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:47.400 stakeholder oriented. We care deeply about our suppliers, were partner 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:49.760 with them, and we are proud of the fact that 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:54.360 We work with lots of small producers and help them 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:58.040 get distribution, and a lot of them grow with us 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:00.720 over time. And they start out with one store, and 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:03.480 then one region, and then multiple regions, and then across 0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:06.440 the whole country, and and then maybe they sell their 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:09.200 company or or take a public I mean a great 0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:12.800 example recently was Vital Farms Eggs. Whole Foods was the 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.480 first customer Vital Farms ever had, and we we made 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:18.800 it over tome I had a ten million dollar investment 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:20.800 in their company as well, and they just did an 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:23.440 I P O and there and their market capitalizations one 0:29:23.440 --> 0:29:27.120 point four billion dollars right now. So it's that's a 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:31.120 great example of working with a small supplier and helping 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.239 them expand across the country and eventually they've become a 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:37.000 very very successful company in their own right. We prode 0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.760 we pride ourselves on that. There's there's really dozens and 0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:42.880 dozens and dozens of similar examples like that. And Amazon, 0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:46.560 you know, it's a different business and one hopefully it's 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:50.480 just doing there There the retailer, they're the everything store. 0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:53.400 As you say, I if I want something, I generally 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.800 just go to my iPhone or my iPad or my 0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.920 computer and I just call up Amazon, I order it, 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:04.080 uh and it comes shows up usually within twenty four hours. 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:07.920 So that's an amazing thing Amazon does. It's it's changed 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:11.040 most people's lives. It certainly has changed my life. That's 0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:13.680 very different than what Whole Food is doing. But Whole 0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:16.240 Food is you know, Amazon wants to be a bigger 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.520 force in grocery, and the Whole Food is key to 0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:22.960 helping them do that. So I think that's why they 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.239 ultimately wanted to acquire us. So, John, you know, you're 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.760 very thoughtful in your books, and and this recent one 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:33.480 is no example. I mean, I do wonder what's ahead 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:36.320 for you. There's been a lot of speculation that you know, 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:38.960 you could go on and keep writing books, and you've 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:42.400 executed this great, as you say, new marriage between these 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:45.080 two companies. And I'm only going to give you about 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:48.080 ninety seconds in this question. But what's next it Do 0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:50.600 you foresee that that maybe you hand over the rain soon? 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.200 You know? I like to think I read recently Warm Buffett. 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:05.320 I read that Warm Buffett. He's he's his of Warren 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.960 Buffett's wealth has been generated after the age of sixty. 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.840 I would like to think that of my contribution in 0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:16.240 the world will be generated after I'm sixty five. That's 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.920 my that's my goal. So I don't have any plans 0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:23.080 on leaving anytime soon from Whole Foods. But hey, you know, 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:26.560 I'm getting older. We all we all have to pass 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.720 from the scene eventually, and I'm there are many other things. 0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:32.720 I'm a very much a doer. I have many projects 0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:35.000 in life I want to work on. That's Whole Foods 0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:37.720 Market CEO co founder John Mackie. You know, we talk 0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:40.520 all the time care about like, oh, merger is sort 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:42.320 of like a marriage, and He's like, no, seriously, it 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:44.320 is like a merriage, Like you gotta work on it. 0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:46.200 Just like that. That wraps up the first hour of 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.920 the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:51.040 I'm Jason Kelly. That was one of my favorite parts 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:53.360 of the interview. I'm Carol Massler Moore. Ahead in our 0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:57.120 next hour, including PBS President CEO Paula Kerger. They're getting 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:04.080 ready for big anniversary. This is This is Bloomberg Business 0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:07.960 Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.000 Carol Masser and I'm Jason Kelly, plenty of head for you. 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:13.880 In this hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:17.000 we're talking k shape recovery with economist Ali Wolf. Will 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:20.400 also here from PBS President Paula Kerger on pivoting with 0:32:20.440 --> 0:32:23.880 the likes of Ken Burns during the virus and this 0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:28.320 reopening in New York means so much. Friend to the show. 0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:31.960 Chef Daniel Blue New York City dining out again, he 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:34.120 joins us. First up, though, We've got to get to 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.040 a story in the magazine, and this had to do 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:39.760 with the Cleveland Clinic. It hosted the debate this week. 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:43.280 Cleveland Clinic, Jason, It's thriving, but it's black neighbors. They 0:32:43.320 --> 0:32:45.640 are not. We got up with Bloomberg News senior Trade 0:32:45.680 --> 0:32:48.760 and Globalization reporter Sean Donnin and Bloomberg Business Week getitor 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:52.200 Jill Webber. Sean has spent a fair amount of time 0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:56.680 going to places um that I think are really important, 0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.840 um in part for the election, but also in part 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:04.600 of the bigger story that is sort of upon America 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:08.960 right now, and Cleveland has actually figured into that reporting 0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:11.280 a lot. This is sort of part two of the 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:15.160 Cleveland series that he's been working on and it's specifically 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:18.960 about the Cleveland Clinic, which is sort of a renowned 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:23.520 medical center. Um. But what's actually been interesting, and this 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:25.880 kind of gets right to the heart of of Sean's story, 0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:30.840 is as the clinic has thrived, basically, the black neighbors 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.400 and the black neighborhood that surrounds the Cleveland Clinic has 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:38.040 actually seen its health deteriora. Seohn picking up from there, 0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:41.080 What what did you discover during your reporting? Yeah, so, 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:45.120 I mean, the Cleveland Clinic is this world leading health institution. 0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:47.920 If you are going to get a high bypass operation, 0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:49.640 this is probably where you want to go. It's the 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.960 place where they really perfected it in the nineties sixties, 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:57.000 and they've built it a whole fortune, a real thriving 0:33:57.080 --> 0:33:59.560 business on the back of this. The Cleveland Clinic last 0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:03.360 year at ten point five billion dollars in revenues. UH. 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.880 It's going to open a new hospital in London later 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.360 this year. It's also in the Middle East. It's opening 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:14.160 a new hospital in China in in the next couple 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:18.200 of years. Uh. It's become this world renowned institution, and 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:20.960 it's also become a great example of what people talk 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:24.200 about when they talk about the EDS and meds economic 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:27.800 development model for cities. You know, after manufacturing left a 0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:31.240 lot of cities like like like Cleveland, people were looking 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.120 at alternatives and and they look to education, and they 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.040 look to the health care sector. And we've seen institutions 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:40.240 like the Cleveland Clinic thrive in recent decades. The problem 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:45.760 is that you go to Cleveland, you step out beyond 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:48.960 the main campus. There's a hundred and sixty five acres 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:52.120 in the middle of Cleveland, uh, and you walk not 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:54.680 even a couple of blocks. You walk a block, and 0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:58.000 what you discover is you are in neighborhoods that have 0:34:58.160 --> 0:35:00.840 some of the highest poverty rates in a nation, and 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:04.200 where a kid who's born today is gonna it has 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:07.520 a life expectancy that's twenty years less than a kid 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:12.080 who is who's born a fifteen minute drive away. And 0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:16.000 that really, right now, in the middle of an economic crisis, 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:20.640 illustrates this kind of American paradox that we have in 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.200 terms of inequality. You can have world beating institutions like 0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:26.920 the Cleveland Clinic, and right next door you can have 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:31.480 black neighborhoods that are just really just being left behind. 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.120 There's no other way to describe it, alright, So describe 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:37.360 to us though, what the CEO of the Cleveland Clinic 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:40.120 told you. I mean, I gotta read the quote. Cleveland 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:42.040 is in our name, he says, But we cannot thrive 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.560 as an organization unless the communities in which we reside 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:47.920 thrive with us. So there they see at front and center. 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:50.319 How are they dealing with it? What are they doing 0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:55.080 doing to change this conversation? Right? So that CEO, Tom 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:59.560 Halovitch is a Croatian born heart surgeon who took over 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:03.440 as a CEO of the clinic in and he says 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.760 he has made raising up the neighborhoods around the Cleveland 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:10.799 Clinic one of the one of his priorities. And he's 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:15.200 recognizing tacitly by doing that that they haven't done enough 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:18.359 in the past to do that. And so they're starting, 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:22.400 and we should say they're starting slowly to to invest 0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:26.840 in different things, whether it's adding to their work in 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:30.840 community health centers. And there's a big project that's about 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.640 to get launched right next door to the Cleveland Clinic. 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:36.680 It's a project called Innovation Square. It's being run by 0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:40.720 Community Development Corporation there. It's gonna cost about three hundred 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:45.040 million dollars over the next five years to really redeveloped 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.600 a neighborhood and bring back grocery stores because we're talking 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:51.799 about food deserts right right around the clinic there, bring 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:55.479 back new new housing there. And the Cleveland Clinic says 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.399 it's going to get involved in that project. We don't 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:00.319 know how much, but we need to put that all 0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:02.360 in perspective at the same time. So we're getting this 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.680 kind of good will from the Cleveland Clinic, but there's 0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:09.839 this three million dollar project next door, and you put 0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:12.680 that in the context of of the business that is 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:15.799 the Cleveland Clinic. Over the next five years, if they 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:17.960 keep going the way they've been going, they're gonna make 0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:22.839 something like fifty billion dollars revenues. That entire three million 0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:26.319 dollar project is zero point six percent of revenues. They're 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.279 also sitting on one point five billion dollars cash in 0:37:29.440 --> 0:37:32.759 hand at the end of June, which means that they 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:36.080 could effectively just write a check for this entire project, 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.040 and and and they're not. So it's a complicated story. 0:37:39.120 --> 0:37:44.400 It's it's it's it's tough because the institution is recognized 0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:46.640 as the problem. It clearly is trying to do something, 0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:51.280 but there's big questions about whether they're doing enough. So Sean, 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.879 synthesize this with some of the other work you've been doing, 0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:58.480 because there is a political undercurrent to all of this. 0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:03.600 You are describeding one of the key economic questions of 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:08.040 this entire presidential race in this election here in many ways, 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:10.880 all these things that have been laid bare by not 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:16.879 just the coronavirus crisis, but this overdue reckoning with race 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:20.800 and inequality in America. How does this fit in with 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:22.839 some of the other things you've seen as you've been 0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:28.239 doing reporting about some similar places that illustrate inequity in 0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:30.920 this country. Yeah, well, look, I mean, we we know 0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:34.680 that President Trump was writing at what he considered a 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:39.160 healthy economy into uh into this election year, and that 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:42.480 the pandemic upended all that. But what the pandemic really 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:47.160 did was it shown a spotlight on these real structural 0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:50.440 inequalities in the American economy right now. And that was 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:54.000 Bloomberg News Senior reporter Sean Donn and Bloomberg Business Week 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:57.279 editor Joel Weber the Cleveland Clinic Carrol a bit of 0:38:57.320 --> 0:38:59.320 a theme developing here in this hour We're talking a 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:01.920 lot about the K shaped recovery. We are, indeed, and 0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:04.200 we've got two guests coming up on that really looking 0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:07.600 at some of the systemic economic problems in our society. 0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:12.720 This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:16.560 Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. We're back here 0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:19.320 on Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Master, Jason Kelly and Jason 0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:21.839 two interviews that really got to the heart of our 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.960 systemic economic problems. One was with an economist. She watches 0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:27.960 housing and the consumers. She talked a lot about the 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:30.960 K shape recovery. She did, we're talking about ali wolf 0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:33.520 and that K shape. You and I have really been 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:35.480 leaning hard into this. We spent a lot of time 0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:39.160 with Peter Atwater. He coined the term ali wolf. She 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:43.000 needs the data to figure out how to model where 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.799 we are, but also where we're going. Check it out 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:48.440 as we do look at the data. The economy is 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:50.239 holding up. I know that there's a lot of talk 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:53.200 that it's losing momentum, but it is holding up. All 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:55.719 things considered, We're still in the middle of a pandemic. 0:39:56.360 --> 0:39:59.000 And as Dave Powell said at his press conference, we're 0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:01.439 learning to live with the iris. And as I talked 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.160 to some of my co workers across the country, they say, life, 0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:07.640 depending on where you live and depending on how you're 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:11.560 thinking about the virus, looks pretty normal. But the concern 0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:14.279 at this point is that the easy games have been made. 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.480 As you mentioned with the jobs, Yeah, we're still adding jobs, 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.920 but we're eleven point five million people shy of February 0:40:20.960 --> 0:40:24.000 and the labor force, and that doesn't account for the 0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:27.400 three point seven million people that have just ultimately left 0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:30.400 the labor force since February. And that's one of the 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:32.640 biggest things because a lot of people are stepping out 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:37.239 for childcare reasons. So let's talk about something that we 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:40.719 have talked a lot about on this program, and I'm 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:42.640 dying to get your take on it, Alley, which is 0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:46.200 the K shaped recovery. It when you said, uh, something 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:48.400 a minute ago about sort of depends on who you are, 0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:51.080 where you live, what your job is. That calls to 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:53.880 mind this idea of the K shaped recovery. Give me 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.759 your reaction to that notion and that description of this 0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:02.279 recovery that we're in, whatever it may look like, the 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:05.160 K shape is the reason we do not have another 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:09.400 stimulus deal, because if you look at the stock market 0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:13.480 and you look at the unstoppable housing market, there are 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:15.600 parts of the economy that why do you need to 0:41:15.640 --> 0:41:19.080 give them additional money? And I think a lot of economists, 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:22.120 myself included, said, oh gosh, watch for the end of July. 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:24.839 We're going to really see the economy tanks and it's 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:27.960 held up all things considered. So that's been one of 0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:31.600 the biggest issues. But as we're seeing today, Pelosi and 0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:36.160 Treasury Secretary revolution are looking at maybe getting closer to 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:39.600 a stimulus deal, but they have to be careful because 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:42.080 I agree with the Republicans we don't need another two 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:45.160 to three trillion, because we already have trillions of dollars 0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:47.520 slashing around to the economy. But I agree with the 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:49.600 Democrats that it needs to be targeted because if you're 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:52.080 in a K shape recovery, don't keep giving money to 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:54.640 top half of the K and expecting a different result. 0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:56.640 You need to make sure that that bottom half of 0:41:56.680 --> 0:41:58.680 the K is getting the right money when they really 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.320 need it. Well, how portant, and let's talk about this, 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:04.080 that bottom part of the K. How important is it 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:07.680 ultimately to the US economy. We you know, add nauseam 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:11.479 talk about the importance of small business owners and small 0:42:11.600 --> 0:42:15.239 businesses to our economy. You know, are we providing enough 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:19.120 aid for that part of our economy. No, we're not 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:22.160 providing enough aid right now. And I think another one 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.440 of the issues is if you look at the savings rate, 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:26.960 if you were in the bottom half of the K 0:42:27.239 --> 0:42:30.560 and you were getting that extra six federal federal stimulus. 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.799 We know the stats about six people were earning more 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.120 money by being on that unemployment insurance. They've been able 0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:39.359 to save some of their money. So when you look 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:42.359 at the personal savings rate, that looks okay, But that's 0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:45.720 going to start coming down. And that's coming down partly 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:47.640 because the top half of the K is going out 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.520 and spending money, but partly because the bottom half of 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.040 the K is now starting to run out. They're starting 0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:56.200 to tap into their savings accounts. And that's not unlimited. 0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:58.560 That's not going to go on indefinitely. So we have 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.120 to look at, uh, what's the top up to the 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:04.440 unemployment insurance. I know there's that joke about the lazy 0:43:04.480 --> 0:43:06.920 economy giving the six hundred, so okay, fine, do the 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:09.640 three hundred, But make sure you're also giving money to 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:13.200 the state and local governments too, small businesses, the people 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:15.480 on the rent and mortgages so they don't end up homeless. 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:18.319 So there's still is just needs to be a really 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:22.040 really targeted effort. What happens if we don't get that? 0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:23.920 What does it look like and how soon do we 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:27.840 see it? Alli, Well, the economy is kind of backpedal, 0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:31.480 but it's not going to happen that quickly. Again, that's 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:33.319 kind of been the lesson learned to all of us 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.080 is when you throw three trillion dollars into an economy 0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:38.920 that only slowed for two months, that actually can keep 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:41.279 you going for a while. So I don't think we're 0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:43.879 going to see that backpedal. We'll see the savings start 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:47.400 to go down, We'll see the amount of people unable 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:50.200 to pay the rent or pay the mortgage start to increase, 0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:52.799 but that's gonna be a slow burn, maybe the next 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:56.320 six months. That was alle Wolves chief economist, Admer's research 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:59.160 and Jason. Another interview that we had this week that 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:01.880 got into what is our economy? It was with Roger Martin, 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.120 Professor Emeritus at the Rotman School of Management at University 0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:07.279 of Toronto. He has a pretty cool new book out 0:44:07.680 --> 0:44:10.400 he does. It's called When More Is Not Better, Overcoming 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:15.160 America's obsession with economic efficiency. You and I gravitated to this, 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.120 and even more so once we got to talking to him, 0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:21.160 because he's a very lively guy and really willing to 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:23.520 kind of put it out there that we're all trying 0:44:23.560 --> 0:44:26.120 to figure this out. For the first two hundred years 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:30.640 of American's history, UH, the median family, the average family 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:36.440 in in America in almost all years, moved forward smartly economically. UH, 0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:42.160 And that changed around by centenary, so that middle incomes 0:44:42.200 --> 0:44:46.719 have stagnated terribly for forty years, a greater stagnation than 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.560 America has has ever seen. So that family that thinks 0:44:50.640 --> 0:44:53.000 that it's children aren't going to be better than they 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:56.040 are is getting closer and more right than wrong if 0:44:56.080 --> 0:45:00.600 they are a rich family in America. So that the problem, 0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:03.960 and I think what that leads people to start questioning, 0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:07.360 is is this system working for us or is it 0:45:07.440 --> 0:45:10.120 just working for a very small tail end of the 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:14.600 distribution of high income folks. But that's what the book 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:18.560 is about, saying why that's happened, what's changed? Uh, in 0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:22.560 the in the last this last period, this last forty years, 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:24.560 and what we can do about it. It's not as 0:45:24.640 --> 0:45:28.760 though this has always been been the way. No. Something changed, 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:33.200 and what changed was we got so obsessive about efficiency, 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:37.840 about getting the last drop of efficiency out of whatever 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:40.959 system in the economy we were thinking about. So Carol 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:43.239 loved both of those conversations. And I have to say, 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.759 you're the economist in this duo. You really understand this 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.360 stuff much more holistically. But those two, I feel like, 0:45:50.520 --> 0:45:54.560 are really bringing it to the masses like me, helping 0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:58.560 me understand kind of the data side of this, but 0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:02.360 also these di sparities, these disparities that we know about. 0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:05.879 Once you can measure them, then maybe you can start 0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:09.040 to fix them. But they're also both talking about things 0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:12.200 that maybe we're just looking at it wrong for a 0:46:12.320 --> 0:46:15.640 long time exactly. That's a really great point, Jason. And 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:17.400 the thing is the data is they are showing that 0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:21.320 these gaps, these inequalities are just increasing. We're not fixing it, 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:23.160 we're not figuring out ways to make it better. I mean, 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:25.880 I feel like that conversation we had with Bloomberg reporter 0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:29.240 Ben Steverman last week, you know, talking about the Harvard 0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:32.560 economist as well, who's looking at this specifically and coming 0:46:32.600 --> 0:46:36.000 to the conclusion that basically, you know, kids are not 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.560 going to be in a better situation than their parents, 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:41.600 which was a long held belief. So what these two 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:44.800 got to is how to think about the economy differently, 0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:46.960 how do we get on a better path. You can 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.600 check out both of those conversations in their full form 0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:52.879 on our podcast feed. Well, you're listening to Bloomberg Business 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:56.560 Week and still ahead. Everything the Public Broadcasting learned over 0:46:56.640 --> 0:46:59.600 its first fifty years have come to bear over the 0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.920 last six month. PBS is celebrating a big milestone. But 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.880 how are they pivoting when there is so much competition 0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:08.920 for content? We'll hear from the network's president and CEO. 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:17.080 This is whooperg. This is Bloomberg Business With with Carol 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:21.680 Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. So, Carol, whether 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:25.840 it is PPS kids, whether it's cooking shows, whether it 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:29.439 is documentaries that change the way we think about American history, 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:32.960 feels like we all have a relationship with PBS. That's 0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:34.960 so true, Jason, this is a broadcaster that's been part 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:36.719 of our life for half a century. They are now 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:39.160 getting ready for the next fifty years. We talked about 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.200 that with the CEO and president of PBS, she is 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:46.560 Paula Kerger. October four will be our fiftieth anniversary. That 0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:50.400 is the day, October four, vent that we signed on 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:52.960 the air as a national system with Julia Child in 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.719 the French shift. And when and when you think about it, 0:47:56.960 --> 0:47:59.759 you know, think about the world before Julia Child. You know, 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:03.400 there was really no you know, there was I mean, 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:06.400 there were some cooking shows, I guess, but she changed 0:48:06.440 --> 0:48:09.880 the way that we thought about food. You know that. Um, 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:12.879 she changed the way that you know, French cuisine, which 0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:17.719 which seems so you know, fussy, could be pretty accessible 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:19.839 and you know it's okay if that chicken falls off 0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:22.360 the counter, you know, you just wipe it off and 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:27.480 you keep going. And I think that and and that personality, Um, 0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:30.640 it's just you know, it's one of the She's one 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:33.480 of the people that I think really defined us. You 0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:37.279 think about Fred Rogers and Fred is having Uh, he's 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:39.800 had an amazing year. Um, you know, as people have 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:42.840 really thought about what he meant to them. You know 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:45.000 the fact that he could look into the into the 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:47.960 camera and you felt that he was looking at you, 0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:51.640 telling you that you were special and really encouraging you 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:55.440 to be yourself, and you think about, you know, as 0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:58.320 you flash forward, all of the different personalities. So we 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:04.120 thought the that's how we would celebrate and UH, and 0:49:04.200 --> 0:49:09.040 then the the pandemic hit and suddenly we were not 0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:13.120 thinking about fifty years and celebration. We were really thinking 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:16.399 about the public service piece of who we are that's 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:18.120 at the P and the S and TBS stands for, 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:20.800 and what we could be doing during this time. And 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:23.520 I have talked to our stations, I've talked to others 0:49:23.560 --> 0:49:26.400 involved with public broadcasting, and I've said to them and 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:30.080 I and I believe this, UH, to the very center 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:33.560 of my soul, that everything that public broadcasting learned over 0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:36.600 its first fifty years have come to bear over the 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:39.680 last six months, and that we were built for this 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:43.360 moment with the children's programming that we have put together 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:47.040 that's all built around core curriculum, with the work that 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:50.120 we've done with teachers and classrooms that we distribute to 0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:53.040 a broadband used to be just their teachers, now to 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:56.320 families who are taking up lesson plans and trying to 0:49:56.440 --> 0:49:59.920 figure out how to engage kids with the trusted news 0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:04.040 content that we've built up through the extraordinary journalism of 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:07.120 people like Jim Lair and Gwen Eiffel and Charlie Hunter 0:50:07.239 --> 0:50:10.000 Galt and all of the people Judy Woodrift. Now I'm 0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:13.720 about all of the people that have gone into building 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:16.439 the News Hour as a trusted source for for fact 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:21.400 and information. To UM, the documentary programs that we've created 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:24.080 over the years. You know, when the baseball season was delayed, 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:26.719 Ken Burns called me and said, why don't we put 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:30.279 baseball up? Why don't we make it available? Um And 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:32.399 and he said, and as we talked, he said, let's 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:34.799 look at the probram the kinds of programs that I've 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:37.799 produced that are in my library that would have been 0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:40.960 on the kids curriculum, you know, for the spring, and 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:44.480 maybe we should find some programs that, you know, could 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:47.200 help remind us all of those times when we came 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:50.200 together and you know, we discovered our own better angels. 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:52.600 So we thought about the Rose Adults and the World 0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:57.600 War Two documentary and the National Parks documentary America's Greatest Idea, 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:01.000 and then, you know, and then George Floyd was murdered 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:05.560 and we suddenly found ourselves looking at Okay, what can 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:08.640 we produce, but what is what is in our library 0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:10.960 that we can bring forward that can help people understand 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:13.920 where we came from? How did we get to this place? 0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:17.880 Looking at everything from Skip Gates, recent series on reconstruction, 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:20.840 going back to the Great Henry Hampton's Eyes on the 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:24.319 Prize and so all of the work that we've been 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:28.440 doing over these last months, leveraging our library but also 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:32.600 creating new content and building on relationships and the trust 0:51:32.680 --> 0:51:35.279 that we've built, has all brought us here. And I 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:37.520 think this is the best way to celebrate our fifties 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:41.320 anniversary is actually being in service to the public. Hey, Paula, 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:44.160 one thing I wanted to ask you is the content 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:46.440 that is out there today. There's so much of it, 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:50.239 thanks largely to the explosion of streaming services. We've got 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.920 just a few new ones really kind of in the 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:56.440 last year. There was a time when it was only PBS. 0:51:56.520 --> 0:52:02.160 It felt like that did those deep dives, did those documentaries, um, 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:07.120 did those really thoughtful series, you know, and now there 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:09.680 are others doing it, And I just wonder, how does 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:13.440 that change your focus or PBS is focus, or how 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:15.560 you plan for the future and how you compete in 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:18.800 a world where everybody's competing for all of our eyeballs, 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:23.160 you know. So we've been down this past before. Um 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:27.160 obviously when we moved from an environment whether it was 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:32.600 just broadcast television, into a plethora of cable channels and uh, 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:34.640 you know, there was a time when so many of 0:52:34.760 --> 0:52:39.000 the of the upcoming cable channels were really designed on, 0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:43.640 you know, trying to emulate or copy public broadcasting. And 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.520 that's PPS President and CEO Paula Kerger. I have to 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:48.320 say one of my favorite parts of that interview was 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:50.720 the quick flex where she's like, yeah, there's a pandemic 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:52.719 going on. I got a call from Ken Burns. He's like, 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:55.080 remember that amazing thing that I did. Why don't you 0:52:55.120 --> 0:52:58.919 show that? Listen PBS Like so many others, Jayson learning 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:01.920 to pivot and provide content that made sense during the pandemic, 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:04.880 temper to pivot the restaurants. They have been among the 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:07.160 hardest hit during the virus. We're gonna hear from one 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:09.480 of the best known names in the industry. We're talking 0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:17.240 about Danielle Blue. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business 0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:21.120 with with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:23.680 So it was a big week for New York City restaurants. 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:26.560 After six months pandemic and do shut down restaurants in 0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:29.239 the city. They were allowed to reopen indoor dining with 0:53:29.400 --> 0:53:32.080 some restrictions on capacity, and it's going to still make 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:35.200 it really tough for them to run financially. And We've 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:37.800 gotten to check in a number of times throughout the 0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:40.560 pandemic with Danielle Blue, one of the best known chefs 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:42.840 in the world. Here's what he had to say. This 0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:47.640 reopening in New York means so much because we have 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:53.600 been stranned for eight months with no restaurants inside. Thanks God, 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:55.680 the city up and up the streets and gave the 0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:59.719 opportunity to have a sidewalk cafe. We did our best 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:03.440 with that at the restaurant Danielle with Danielle Bully Kitchen 0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:10.120 and the reopening inside, I felt that I wanted to 0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:14.840 also try to set up a mood which was maybe 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:18.160 a little different, a little more disrupting and and and 0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.800 maybe a theme where I didn't get a chance to 0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:24.439 go to the South of France this summer, and every 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:26.400 year I go to France and I always go to 0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:29.200 the south of France, but so it is many many Americans, 0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:35.920 and you know, destination vacations the mediterrane always make people dream. 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:38.400 So I felt that I should do a restaurant who 0:54:38.920 --> 0:54:41.360 expressed a little bit of a journey to the Mediterrane 0:54:41.520 --> 0:54:44.640 through the flavor of the dishes and through the mood 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:47.600 of the restaurant. So we transformed the restaurant into Buris 0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:55.239 Bullied by the Sea as my last name. I love it. 0:54:55.560 --> 0:54:58.200 I love it, I love it, and so Danielle, I mean, 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:00.759 what's been so interesting in sort of keeping up with 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:04.000 you throughout this is that this has obviously challenged you 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:06.520 as as a chef and in many ways, but it's 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.920 really challenged you, I feel like, as a businessman in 0:55:10.040 --> 0:55:12.680 many ways and as a manager of your people. So 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:16.080 tell us about some of the sort of key decisions 0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:18.840 that you felt like you had to make for your business. 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:23.640 Of course, I mean that we'll all locked down, and 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:27.839 all my colleague lockdown. Little by little, we started initiative 0:55:27.920 --> 0:55:32.160 to bring back our staff and um about the months 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:37.840 and a half after lockdown, we started Food First Foundation, 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:41.320 an initiative with sl Green, my new partner in a 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:46.080 new restaurant, Le Pavillon at one Vanderbilt, and he wanted 0:55:46.120 --> 0:55:49.200 to really help me start to make meals for New 0:55:49.280 --> 0:55:52.400 Yorkers and bring back some of my staff in the kitchen. 0:55:52.480 --> 0:55:54.760 But he also wanted to help many of his standards 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:57.640 around town to be able to reopen their kitchen and 0:55:57.800 --> 0:56:03.160 support their tenants through UH Food First and today we 0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:08.560 have distributed almost four meals gifted to many many charity 0:56:08.640 --> 0:56:12.080 including City Mill on Wheel and UH in New York 0:56:12.160 --> 0:56:14.640 and World Central Kitchen at the beginning of our mission 0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:19.960 and and Barry Barry mission as well, and and they 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:24.120 were I think that was the first initiative. Then from 0:56:24.160 --> 0:56:27.160 that we did the take out at restaurant Danielle, and 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:30.640 then we opened the terra us at Babu and Danielle 0:56:30.880 --> 0:56:35.879 and through daniel Bully Kitchen UH takeout division as well. 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:40.160 And today we are opened inside and it felt very 0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:45.440 good last night. I feel that people are still a 0:56:45.560 --> 0:56:49.560 little anxious and there's a mix of anxiety and excitement 0:56:49.840 --> 0:56:53.879 and for us as reopening inside, but at the same 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:57.000 time we make sure and you know, it gave us 0:56:57.040 --> 0:57:02.680 a chance to bring back more staff. So fifty employees 0:57:02.800 --> 0:57:06.080 we had we had now up to plus and that's 0:57:06.120 --> 0:57:09.000 really growing. So it's good. It's a good sign. And 0:57:09.120 --> 0:57:12.160 we haven't reopened all our restaurant, only you know, the 0:57:12.239 --> 0:57:16.200 West Side Barbau and Danielle and Danielle, let's talk about 0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:19.960 New York City and specifically Midtown if we can, Carol 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:23.320 and I in normal world, in the before times, we 0:57:23.440 --> 0:57:26.400 went to Midtown Manhattan. Literally every day we would do 0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:29.880 our show from there. We were denizens of that, you know, 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:33.160 into the evening, and so many people who we know 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:36.320 are like that. What is Midtown like? Now? What do 0:57:36.400 --> 0:57:38.680 you expect it's going to be like over the next 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:42.919 six to nine to twelve months. Well, I think over 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:46.440 the next six months it will improve us. I think 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:53.840 many institutions, UH Bank and other institutions of maybe mad 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:56.360 they stuff to stay home until the end of the 0:57:56.480 --> 0:58:01.960 year and coming back in January. So some of the 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.080 company I've already bring back, brought back staff on on 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:10.200 alternative schedule. Now, I mean, of course New York will 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:13.600 come back New York. It's evident. And some people may 0:58:13.640 --> 0:58:17.240 have lost their job, lost stability in New York and 0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:21.680 had to live town. But for the most part, the 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:25.760 town might be a little deprived right now of its worker, 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:29.360 but they're gonna have to come back to work because 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:33.560 no company can run at a distance like this forever. 0:58:34.360 --> 0:58:39.320 And um, I believe that you know, by spring one, 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:42.480 even after the holiday, New York shill come back strong. 0:58:42.640 --> 0:58:44.240 I mean, we feel that there's a lot of New 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:49.720 Yorker back, but they they come back, they go back 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:54.600 and forth. Right now, we feel and I am positive 0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:58.360 New York City is New York City, and I think 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:01.440 it will take more than COVID to make it really 0:59:03.240 --> 0:59:06.960 a challenge city. But we have we have a restaurant 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:09.760 Midtown and because of Broadway, we if we don't have 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:12.360 the culture, if we don't have the art, if we 0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:15.040 don't have the tourists, it's abused. And the town is 0:59:15.080 --> 0:59:18.920 also suffering, and so hospitality in general hotels and restaurants 0:59:19.240 --> 0:59:24.760 are suffering. And um, and we need also the workers 0:59:24.880 --> 0:59:28.720 back to really have this life during lunch Midtown. So 0:59:29.960 --> 0:59:33.520 I am positive we're opening a restaurant in Midtown at 0:59:33.560 --> 0:59:36.520 forty second and one Vanderbilt next year is that pavilion 0:59:37.240 --> 0:59:43.040 the pavilion, And I'm positive that you know, it will 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:47.400 be a good time to open a restaurant in the 0:59:47.680 --> 0:59:51.240 spring of twenty one, and at the same time, we 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:54.400 have taken all the measure possible to make sure that 0:59:54.560 --> 0:59:57.080 people feel them they are in a very safe environment. 0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:02.720 And um, you know, it's just has been, um Daniel 1:00:02.960 --> 1:00:05.800 right for most Let me ask you, because I can't 1:00:05.840 --> 1:00:07.600 tell you how many people we have come on in. 1:00:08.120 --> 1:00:10.040 Even real estate guys are like, you know, it's like 1:00:10.040 --> 1:00:13.120 everybody's leaving New York City, everybody's leaving these major cities 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:15.320 and so and so forth. I mean, I've been in 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:17.880 New York City a long time too, and I've heard 1:00:18.080 --> 1:00:20.560 the demise of the big cities over and over again. 1:00:20.920 --> 1:00:24.680 How do you see it? I see it? And a 1:00:24.760 --> 1:00:27.560 lot of people, as I said, feel very stressed right now, 1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:31.160 and I feel comfortable being out. But they're gonna be 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:37.880 so bored and so missing out with everything that I 1:00:38.040 --> 1:00:40.640 think they'll be back to New York. And you know, 1:00:41.160 --> 1:00:43.880 I'm a New Yorker at art and if I'm going 1:00:43.920 --> 1:00:45.320 to leave the city, where am I going to go 1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:48.680 back to France in my small village? Um, I don't know. 1:00:48.920 --> 1:00:51.800 But I'm also I've been a New Yorker involved with 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:56.560 the community and involved with my profession and having a 1:00:56.760 --> 1:00:59.480 credible support from our customer and we still feel it, 1:00:59.560 --> 1:01:02.520 we still get it. I mean, our customers are so 1:01:02.680 --> 1:01:07.040 positive and so happy that we are here and we 1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:10.520 are continuing. And I can see I can see them 1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:13.800 coming back all the time. Are they going to spend 1:01:13.840 --> 1:01:15.640 as much time in New York City and they used to? 1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:19.440 Maybe less, but they still come back and support us. 1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:24.000 And so, Danielle, what is something like this due to 1:01:24.200 --> 1:01:27.120 the next generation of chefs coming up? You know? I 1:01:27.200 --> 1:01:32.080 mean you have seen so many promising chefs sort of 1:01:32.160 --> 1:01:36.000 come through your kitchens and the kitchens of your friends. 1:01:36.120 --> 1:01:39.840 I do wonder about this next generation and how they 1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:42.400 will adapt and what advice you might be giving them. 1:01:43.040 --> 1:01:45.480 And and many young chefs left me to go to 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:50.200 smaller city around the country. UM. It has been struggling 1:01:50.320 --> 1:01:54.960 challenge for them to wherever they are uh in UM 1:01:55.880 --> 1:02:01.880 in Minnesota, in California, in uh in Florida or other 1:02:02.040 --> 1:02:06.680 part Texas. It's it's not easy to UM, it's not 1:02:06.800 --> 1:02:10.200 easy to start a business. And then too, you know, 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:12.400 when you when you start your new place, you have 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:15.960 that you have you you might do very well, but 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:19.080 you have to pay back the investment. And I think 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:22.240 for younger for young chef who want to start a business. 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:26.720 What's important is to not be in debt to the 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:30.040 point where they can never pay back or lose their business. 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:34.000 Now for young chef learning to cook, I think, um, 1:02:35.320 --> 1:02:38.080 there's there's going to be opportunity in the food business, 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:42.560 maybe different than what they envision. But for me, we 1:02:42.680 --> 1:02:46.920 have been very creative at expanding into other directions in 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:51.880 in the food world, such as UH national distribution with 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:55.520 Gold Belly of daniel Buddy Kitchen for dishes for home. 1:02:55.880 --> 1:02:58.240 So that brought me. It gave me a chance to 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:00.800 bring more stuff. We do yours of the takeout in 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.160 New York City with daniel Blue Kitchen and that brought 1:03:03.240 --> 1:03:09.360 me more stuff, and um, expanding into catering, more catering. 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:11.880 I have a catering company, but we're expanding into most 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:16.720 services like that. And so I think we tried to 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:22.600 stay very creative, very engaged with opportunity that maybe needed 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:26.320 right now and may change later. And that's chef Danielle Blue. 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:30.040 Of course his eponymous restaurant here in New York City. 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:33.200 It is a beacon in many ways he's been pivoting 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:36.200 like crazy. Really good to catch up with him. Yeah 1:03:36.240 --> 1:03:38.640 and check it also Kate Creator, who is our food 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:42.000 editor for Pursuits here at Bloomberg. She has some great 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:44.880 stories this week about the industry in the sector trying 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:47.160 to reopen up. And that wraps up the weekend edition 1:03:47.160 --> 1:03:49.480 of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:51.959 much for joining us. I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Carol Master. 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:54.120 Be sure to check out our daily radio show that's 1:03:54.120 --> 1:03:56.680 Monday through Friday starting at two pm Well Street time, 1:03:56.920 --> 1:03:59.640 and you can hear all of our fun conversations from 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:03.920 a show and from this show. Wherever you get your podcasts, 1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:06.080 and be sure while you're on that podcast, we need 1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:09.040 to check out this week's extra podcast. It's our conversation 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:12.840 with Joe Lonsdale, very timely. He's a co founder of Palanteer. 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:15.440 He worked at PayPal as well. We talked to him 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:19.560 on the day that Palentteer went public. That's right, Jason, 1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:21.960 A great story and great insight about kind of where 1:04:22.040 --> 1:04:24.280 we are when it comes to the tech world. Don't 1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:27.600 forget too. Were also on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Global News, 1:04:27.840 --> 1:04:31.000 Bloomberg Week. It's available on newsstands now and we'll see 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.520 you next week right here at the same time this 1:04:33.960 --> 1:04:34.600 is Bloomberg,