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Speaker 1: How do people value art? Like, what determines a piece

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Speaker 1: of art being you know, one thousand dollars versus ten

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Speaker 1: thousand versus one hundred thousand dollars, Right, Like, how does

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Speaker 1: art even get valued?

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Speaker 2: In your perspective? That can be a tricky question. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not everyone has the best of intentions, but also not

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Speaker 2: everyone is equally informed. Right, Sometimes you have people who

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Speaker 2: really just trying to hustle, take advantage of somebody, blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah. One of the first lessons that I learned

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Speaker 2: as an emerging artist not to price yourself out of

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Speaker 2: the market, especially now given the influence of social media

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Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You know, so many young artists

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Speaker 2: to see people selling work with ten thousand, fifteen, twenty

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Speaker 2: thirty whatever, you know, one thousand dollars and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can do that, And they want to sell a

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Speaker 2: painting for twenty thirty thousand dollars. Maybe you're lucky, but

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Speaker 2: guess how many people can afford to buy a twenty

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars worth? Right, So now you've just cut

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Speaker 2: off you know, many many people who could have supported

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Speaker 2: your rise, Right, so you want to have a slow burn.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody Brandon Butler here with butter Nomics, and we

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Speaker 1: are honored they to have doctor Forjamu Paku with us

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Speaker 1: today on the episode. He is an internationally known, award

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Speaker 1: winning artist. And what's really unique about him is not

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Speaker 1: only that he's based in Atlanta right now, he's not

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Speaker 1: from Atlanta, but he's based in Atlanta, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. But he merges hip hop culture with themes

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Speaker 1: of black masculinity and just culture in general. You know,

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Speaker 1: his work has been featured all over the world, from

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Speaker 1: the Smithsonian National Museum of African American Art and Culture,

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Speaker 1: to the Atlanta pim Museum, to the Museum of Contemporary

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Speaker 1: Art in Georgia, even the Backlash Gallery in Paris. So

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Speaker 1: we're really happy to have in today, doctor Paku. How

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Speaker 1: are you doing this morning?

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Speaker 2: Doing great? Man, It's great to be here, Happy to

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Speaker 2: be here with you in conversation and looking forward to

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Speaker 2: our chat.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to, you know, put your bio together.

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Speaker 1: Many had so many awards. I couldn't put them all

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Speaker 1: in there without talking for twenty minutes. So did I

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Speaker 1: leave anything really important out? I got to ask that upfront,

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Speaker 1: like is there anything I left out?

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Speaker 2: I would say actually probably one of the more interesting

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Speaker 2: things and exciting things, honestly. Earlier this year, I was

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Speaker 2: named the Chevalier in the Order of Arts and Letters

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Speaker 2: by the country of France. So I'm essentially a knight

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Speaker 2: in France.

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Speaker 1: You're a knight. Okay, I can't even top that. I

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Speaker 1: came in top. What's that experience, like, like, how does

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Speaker 1: a person like one? How do you get that to warp?

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Speaker 1: And then also when you get it, like did you

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Speaker 1: actually get knighted? Like, tell me more about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I was knighted by the French consulate

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Speaker 2: here in Atlanta. It's a process that they go through

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Speaker 2: where every few years they select a few foreign citizens

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Speaker 2: to be considered for knight. These are people who have

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Speaker 2: contributed significantly to French art and culture. And yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was nominated in twenty three and selected by the committee

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Speaker 2: and they officially announced it in December of last year,

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Speaker 2: and then in January I had my ceremony where I

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Speaker 2: was knighted and received my official night badge or pen

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Speaker 2: in the ceremony here. So it's actually really interesting. You know,

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Speaker 2: only a few people who are not French citizens here

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Speaker 2: that honor. I mean even for a French citizen to

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Speaker 2: say rare honor, but to be a non French citizen

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Speaker 2: and to be recognized in this way, it is very sick.

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Speaker 1: And was there some a specific piece of art that

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Speaker 1: that got you nominated and see you mentioned in twenty

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Speaker 1: nominated in twenty twenty three, Like what actually got you

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Speaker 1: in that consideration in the first place.

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Speaker 2: It's been the work that I've been doing in France

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Speaker 2: and French countries for the last ten plus years. I've

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Speaker 2: been shown with Backslash Gallery in Paris since about twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: but I have a significant relationship with Marrakesh in Morocco,

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Speaker 2: doing a lot of work there. You know, my family

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Speaker 2: has its roots in Martinique and working on a project there,

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Speaker 2: So you know this, I've had a lot of engagement

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Speaker 2: with French culture as an artist, as a practicing artist.

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Speaker 2: So this recognition just acknowledges, you know, the fact that

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Speaker 2: I've been you know, advancing French culture through my practice,

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Speaker 2: you know, celebrating African diaspora in French culture through my work.

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Speaker 2: And this has been, you know, a career of doing this,

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't one thing that's been kind of like

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Speaker 2: a culmination of projects that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing, And you know, I guess what I'm really

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Speaker 1: interested to understand is, you know, you talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about how, you know, films like Minister Society really kind

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Speaker 1: of influenced it early on, all the way that kind

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Speaker 1: of becoming a night. But let's take a step back,

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Speaker 1: you know for a second, like how did how did

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Speaker 1: Minus Society kind of influence your artistic direction early on?

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Speaker 1: And you know, how do these kind of experiences continue

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Speaker 1: to shape the work that you do today?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Man, minutes was really kind of like the lack

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Speaker 2: of a better way of explaining it or describing it,

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Speaker 2: it was like straw that broke the camel's back, right

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Speaker 2: Like growing up, you know, eighties, nineties, early nineties, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, I was not unaccustomed to hearing

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Speaker 2: things like, oh, as a black man, you're more likely

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Speaker 2: to end up you know, dead or in jail, or

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Speaker 2: you know, you're less likely to go to college or

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Speaker 2: you know, have a life. Really essentially, like there's all

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Speaker 2: this talk, you know, all of this talk about death,

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Speaker 2: like my identity as a black man being death bound,

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Speaker 2: and not just physical death but social death as well, right,

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Speaker 2: like ending up in jail, or ending up in dead

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Speaker 2: or ended up in some kind of you know, civic

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Speaker 2: or social situation where I could not actually live or thrive, right,

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Speaker 2: And so I grew up being bombarded with these ideas

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Speaker 2: and really trying to figure out, like how do I

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Speaker 2: get around this, Like how do I escape this? Because

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Speaker 2: you know, oftentimes the things that they were describing were

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Speaker 2: things that didn't really fit my character and my personality

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Speaker 2: in the first place, right. But you know, because I

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Speaker 2: was a black man, I'm told that this was going

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Speaker 2: to happen to me, right. And so when I was

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Speaker 2: eighteen years old, I was preparing to leave the time

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Speaker 2: that I grew up in in South Carolina to move

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Speaker 2: to Atlanta to go to college. And I will never forget, man.

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Speaker 2: It was, you know, around my birthday, me and my

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Speaker 2: friends went to go see Minister Society, and you know,

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Speaker 2: of course that you know the story old boy was

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Speaker 2: about to leave la and all the drama and crime

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Speaker 2: and poverty and all the things that he had experienced

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Speaker 2: in his life to go to Atlanta to start a

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Speaker 2: new life. And you know, I just saw like parallels,

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Speaker 2: I guess, you know what I mean, but like watching

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Speaker 2: him get shot down you know, at the end of

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Speaker 2: that film, it was like, oh man, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 2: make it, you know what I'm saying. Like it really

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Speaker 2: like sort of like cemented in my mind this tragedy

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Speaker 2: or this trauma that I expected or I anticipated was

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Speaker 2: to befall me, right, And so I spent a number

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Speaker 2: of years after that just sort of waiting on the

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Speaker 2: other shooter drop. Like you know, in fact, I began

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Speaker 2: to like mark my birthdays not by accomplishments, but by

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Speaker 2: the tragedies I avoided. So nineteen, I ain't been shot yet,

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Speaker 2: twenty I ain't never been arrested. Twenty one, No, baby, mom,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like I literally went through

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Speaker 2: that until I was about twenty eight years old, like

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Speaker 2: just waiting on that thing to happen. For all of

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Speaker 2: that to say that, you know, I began to once

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Speaker 2: I sort of became cognizant of the fact that this

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Speaker 2: was all you know in my mind that you know,

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Speaker 2: began to realize the impact of like visual culture and

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Speaker 2: these narratives, the way that they impact us as black men,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you know, watching other young black men

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Speaker 2: around me who succumbed right to those like pitfalls, who

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Speaker 2: gave up because it like it was going to be

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Speaker 2: too hard and there was no other way out or

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Speaker 2: there was all the way around, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And so in that moment, in that time, I began

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Speaker 2: to realize that, you know, as a person who makes images,

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Speaker 2: I'm actually in a unique position to make a different

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Speaker 2: set of images, to use my art and use my

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Speaker 2: practice to show us a different way of being and

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Speaker 2: becoming and something that could confront, you know, just these

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Speaker 2: stereotypes of these images that have been perpetuating about black

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Speaker 2: men for generations. Right like, just because the world is

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Speaker 2: a certain way doesn't mean it has to be that way.

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Speaker 2: And you know that's how you know, Menace and you know,

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Speaker 2: especially Menus, you know, became a sort of catalyst for

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Speaker 2: how I make the type of work that I mean.

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Speaker 1: Look, I grew up in that same era, and I

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Speaker 1: completely remember movies like Menace, Society, Boys in the Hood,

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Speaker 1: South Central Colors, Colors, k New Jack City. I mean

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Speaker 1: there again, there was a whole litany of movies. Right

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Speaker 1: the pretty much told you there was only kind of

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Speaker 1: one way that you were gonna end up. And it

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Speaker 1: also kind of told you, you know, outside of you know,

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Speaker 1: the same time you're watching guys like Michael Jordan play

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Speaker 1: basketball and all this stuff. It was like you kind

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Speaker 1: of had two very binary options, right. It was like

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Speaker 1: either you're an athlete or you're probably gonna be a

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Speaker 1: drug dealer, you know, but like ideas like going to

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Speaker 1: college or even ideas like just even being an artist

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Speaker 1: in general, exactly exactly really things that were, you know,

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Speaker 1: put in front of us, and it was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: Especially yeah, in like that nineties, you know, there was

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Speaker 1: a time when again you didn't see those kind of images.

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Speaker 1: You really only kind of saw, you know, the kind

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Speaker 1: of the outliers, right of like what was expected of

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Speaker 1: you as a black man. And I think even for me,

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Speaker 1: I mean, growing up, it's funny you know. Always I

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Speaker 1: said for a long time that from New jack City,

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Speaker 1: you know, Wesley Snipes was kind of one of my

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Speaker 1: heroes because I didn't have any other heroes.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: It was like I saw a guy. I saw a

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Speaker 1: guy that was running a business. I mean it was

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a good business, you know, but I saw

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Speaker 1: a guy that was running the business building things. And

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Speaker 1: again always even really see those kind of other elements, right,

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Speaker 1: So how do you think those kind of examples continue

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Speaker 1: to play, and its the stereotypes that you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of black men kind of live through in the nineties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you know, I think it's it's really interesting,

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Speaker 2: especially that point that you made about, you know, the

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Speaker 2: types of images of black men that we see being successful,

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Speaker 2: right like to this day, it's still very limited, right Like,

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Speaker 2: you got music, you know, entertainers, television, film, you know, entertainers,

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Speaker 2: and you got athletes, right Like, it's very very rare

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Speaker 2: to see someone doing something other than that as a

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Speaker 2: black man. Every now and then you get like the politicians,

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Speaker 2: but those aren't necessarily desirable because of the things that

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Speaker 2: politicians often have to do or like you know, have

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Speaker 2: to be leaning about, you know, which may not necessarily

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Speaker 2: be serving to the black communities as well, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean. So there's all of these ways that like,

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Speaker 2: like images of what we can be, you know, are

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Speaker 2: limiting and continue to be limiting, right, which is why

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Speaker 2: I'm always very much adamant about being very very clear

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Speaker 2: and intentional about demonstrating the fact that I am a

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Speaker 2: practicing artist, not a starving artist, you know, not struggling artists,

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Speaker 2: but you know, making my way and then trying to

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Speaker 2: be as visible as possible so that other young black

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Speaker 2: men can see that there are other options besides what

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Speaker 2: they show you. Right. So for example, like similar to

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Speaker 2: how you identified with uh ah, got just how you

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Speaker 2: identify with you know brown? The person I identified with was

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Speaker 2: JJ from Good Times, Right. He was the only black

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Speaker 2: man that I saw as an artist. Uh And that's

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Speaker 2: a show from the seventies, right. I can't really think

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Speaker 2: of any other examples in popular media, right, film, television,

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Speaker 2: examples of black men artists. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: And to this day, like I do a program called

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Speaker 2: Advantage Point where I work with young men in high school,

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Speaker 2: young black men in high school, and introduce them to

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Speaker 2: various artistic disciplines as a way of showing them and

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Speaker 2: demonstrating for them that their story, their perspective, their world,

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Speaker 2: their unique advantage in this world is powerful, right, and

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Speaker 2: that this can be articulated through the arts. It can

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Speaker 2: be expressed through the arts. And ninety percent of the

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Speaker 2: time I have such a difficult time recruiting young black

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Speaker 2: men into the program because they're like, I don't really

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Speaker 2: know anything about art, but they're drawing, you know what?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't really know a thing about art,

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Speaker 2: but they're designing clothes, you know. I talked for a

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Speaker 2: couple of semesters at moor House and it was an

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Speaker 2: art a survey of art history class that I was

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Speaker 2: teaching on the and this was during COVID. So on

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Speaker 2: the first day of class, you know, of course, everybody's

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Speaker 2: on their zoom screens and I can see the walls

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Speaker 2: behind them in their rooms wherever they were. You know,

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Speaker 2: I asked each one of the young men to tell

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Speaker 2: me about their contact with art, like what is you know?

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Speaker 2: What do you like about art? Like what what do

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Speaker 2: you have a favorite artist? Every single one of these

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Speaker 2: young men said, I don't have a relationship with art,

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Speaker 2: and I'd let them all go, and you know, and

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Speaker 2: when they all finished, I was like, I need all

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Speaker 2: of y'all to look behind you. Y'all got posters on

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Speaker 2: your walls, y'all got you know, art on your clothes.

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Speaker 2: One of them even had it on a Bosk T shirt.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm like, bro, like this. This disconnects that we have,

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Speaker 2: particularly as black men, when it comes to art, is

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Speaker 2: something that I to be really compelling but also an

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Speaker 2: interesting challenge to try to overcome because ultimately, when we

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Speaker 2: talk about art, we have this perception, again perpetuated by

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Speaker 2: media and you know, you know, very stereotypes from over

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Speaker 2: the years that art is just like super abstract thing.

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Speaker 2: It's really deep, and it's super expensive, and it's over

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Speaker 2: there and it's not for us, and you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. But art is really just language, you know

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. It's how we communicate, it's how we connect,

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Speaker 2: is how we identify, right, like, it's affirmation of our humanity.

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Speaker 2: It's the saying I always say is in the future hysteric.

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Speaker 2: Historians will tell what happened, but artists tell how it

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Speaker 2: felt right And this, I think is an imperative for

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Speaker 2: our young black men and women right to understand that

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Speaker 2: this is a part of who we are. This is

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Speaker 2: how we this is how we put our flag in

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Speaker 2: the this is how we leave a record of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: It's imperative. It's how we emote, it's how we express it.

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Speaker 2: It's everything about who we are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's interesting because, especially to your point, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people I think only kind of consume art

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Speaker 1: and content and they don't really think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: creating art and content when they interact with it all

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Speaker 1: the time. You know, Jay Z has done more to

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Speaker 1: talk about Bossiacht in the last you know, ten years.

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Speaker 1: But again, our our kids and artists with our kids,

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Speaker 1: and you know, really looking up that person to see

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Speaker 1: learn more about them and to kind of understand who's

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Speaker 1: behind it, right, And so you know, to your point,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of times the art world, it

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Speaker 1: can seem intimidating. I kind of compared to like wine

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Speaker 1: in a sense, you know what I mean, Like when

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Speaker 1: you think about it, it's like wine can be very

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Speaker 1: intimidating because of small years and they make it all,

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Speaker 1: you know, very you know, over the top, and it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's about privilege and connections, and but the

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Speaker 1: reality is, to your point, it's a lot more relatable

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Speaker 1: than people might realize. And how do you make your

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Speaker 1: art more accessible to the culture through the kind of

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Speaker 1: work that you do.

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Speaker 2: I try to make the art more accessible by making

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Speaker 2: art that's reflective of the community that I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: speaking on behalf of trying to represent, right, Like I'd

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Speaker 2: never forget I did this show and maybe it's I

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Speaker 2: think it was like twenty thirteen in New York. I

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Speaker 2: was shown with a gallery there at the time that

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Speaker 2: was in Chelsea, which was like one of the you know,

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Speaker 2: at that time was like the hottest block to be

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Speaker 2: on in New York, right across from some of the

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Speaker 2: biggest galleries in New York City. Anything that happens in

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Speaker 2: New York was in this Chelsea two block waits right

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Speaker 2: like in the artwork. So I have this show there.

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Speaker 2: The show is called All That Glitters Ain't Goals, and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, my typical like style of like my

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Speaker 2: characters on the covers of like these magazine covers, and

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Speaker 2: it's all like hip hop drip gold gold teeth, like

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Speaker 2: chains hanging, you know, all this kind of jazz right,

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Speaker 2: very very much in conversation with like hip hop culture,

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Speaker 2: and to be even more specific, in conversation with the

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Speaker 2: sort of hyper obsession with the commodification of hip hop culture. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're chasing all of these things that are

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Speaker 2: like tied to monetary value as a means of like

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Speaker 2: being self affirming, but ultimately realizing that those things don't

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Speaker 2: hold you, they don't really affirm you in the way

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Speaker 2: that you think they do. Right anyway, my galleries uh

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Speaker 2: called me one day to tell me about this experience where,

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Speaker 2: you know, some young black guys who are walking down

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Speaker 2: the street, like high school age kids. You know. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure where they were going or coming from, but

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Speaker 2: they're walking down this block in Chelsea, uh, and they

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Speaker 2: happen to see the paintings, you know, through the window,

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Speaker 2: and they stopped looking and they're talking to each other

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Speaker 2: and they're like, you know, hitting each other, you know,

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Speaker 2: and but they're not coming in. They're just standing outside,

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Speaker 2: and you know, he kind of indicated to them, like

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Speaker 2: you can come in. You can come in. You know.

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Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you know, how much does it cost

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Speaker 2: it coming He's like, no, it doesn't cost anything. It's

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Speaker 2: a gallery. You can come in and can look, you know,

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. So they come in and they're looking

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Speaker 2: around like, yo, man, this is art. And he's like yeah,

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Speaker 2: He's like, Yo, this is dope. I get this. I

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Speaker 2: understand this. Like this is saying X, Y and Z

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Speaker 2: and and what this is talking about is this right?

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. Like they really connected with

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Speaker 2: what they saw, unlike anything else on that street, Like

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Speaker 2: they may not have even taken the moment of cause

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Speaker 2: at any of the other galleries because they didn't see

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Speaker 2: themselves in that, right, they saw themselves in this work.

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Speaker 2: And that's the way that I approach my practice. Like

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm intentional about telling our stories. I'm intentional about

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Speaker 2: privileging and affirming, like even aspects of our black culture

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Speaker 2: that continue to be minimized and diminished, right like, you know,

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Speaker 2: especially by you know, aspects of our culture maybe more affluent.

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Speaker 2: You know, they sometimes get a bit self righteous. You

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be dressing like that, You shouldn't do it. I'm

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Speaker 2: painting the people that you shouldn't be dressing like. You

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying, because I think those stories are

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Speaker 2: equally important, and oftentimes in those spaces we can learn

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Speaker 2: much more innovative and creative ways of navigating the world. Right.

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Speaker 2: I have a whole philosophy I call trapidemia where I

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Speaker 2: explore trap culture not as an esthetic, but as a technology.

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Speaker 2: What we call trap isn't new. It's something we've been

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Speaker 2: doing since they brought the first of our ancestors over

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Speaker 2: here on slave ships, right Like, We've been figuring out

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Speaker 2: ways to circumvent and subvert their systems. You know, we've

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Speaker 2: been figuring out and navigating our own economies. We've been

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Speaker 2: figuring out and navigating our own language systems, right like,

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Speaker 2: we've been trapping. We've even called it different things. It's

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Speaker 2: been know, hustling, it's being you know whatever. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've had different nomenclature for it. But ultimately it's a technology.

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Speaker 2: It's a way of oppressed people finding ways to subvert

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Speaker 2: systems that have been put in place to oppress them. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so through my practice in highlighting what I call

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Speaker 2: these like trapidemic practices and exercises and ways of being,

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Speaker 2: is trying to highlight the ingenuity and innovation that emerges

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Speaker 2: in those spaces as being generative as opposed to being

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Speaker 2: you know, places of poverty or lack or despair.

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Speaker 1: Now that's interesting, I mean, yeah, the entire Black experience

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Speaker 1: when you look back through history, is about you know,

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Speaker 1: innovation and you know, essentially almost making something out of nothing,

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Speaker 1: right like whether it's whether it's soul food, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the music. You know, how music was created

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Speaker 1: all the way to artwork, right Like, we were kind

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Speaker 1: of given the least the scraps, what was left over

382
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Speaker 1: in some kind of way ended up making it into

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Speaker 1: something delicious, something beautiful, and all these different things. And

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Speaker 1: that's an interesting I've never thought about Trappis technology, but

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Speaker 1: it makes a ton of sense, you know when you

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Speaker 1: kind of think about it. You know, one question I

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Speaker 1: have is, you know, I'm a content creator obviously through

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Speaker 1: Buttery Tale, and we make content on a regular basis

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Speaker 1: and all different kind of mediums. But one of the

390
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Speaker 1: things I've struggled with over the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: is inspiration. You know, when you're kind of always on

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Speaker 1: and kind of in this always on kind of content mode.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've kind of gotten to a place now

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Speaker 1: where I don't create for the sake of creating creation's sake.

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Speaker 1: I try to find inspiration, Like what inspires you? And

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Speaker 1: how do you come up with these ideas? Do that

397
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Speaker 1: all the glitters ain't gold? Or you know, a fahamuku

398
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Speaker 1: is the shit? Like where do these ideas even come from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Oftentimes again they come out of a kind of necessity,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, you know, for example,

401
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Speaker 2: you just speak about this because you brought it up.

402
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Speaker 2: But like the whole Fahama pakuza shit thing, right like

403
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Speaker 2: that started out because early in my career. You know,

404
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: I was working as a graphic designer, uh, designing a

405
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Speaker 2: lot of collateral for hip hop artists, for nightclubs, for

406
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Speaker 2: record labels, things like that. And at that time, this

407
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: was like in the late nineties, I'm you know, in working, living,

408
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Speaker 2: working in New York. I'm having the opportunity to sit

409
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Speaker 2: with like a who's who of like the you know,

410
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Speaker 2: hip hop New York hip hop scene, in designing collateral

411
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Speaker 2: for them and getting to know them and realizing, like, man,

412
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Speaker 2: you nothing like the character you play on TV, you

413
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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying, Uh, And I just thought it

414
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Speaker 2: was really fascinating, like beginning to understand the mechanics of

415
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Speaker 2: marketing and promotion. It's all psychology, you know what I'm saying.

416
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Speaker 2: It's all a psychological manipulation essentially, right, And so I

417
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Speaker 2: was like, man, I wonder what would happen if somebody

418
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Speaker 2: marketed and promoted a visual artist the same way we

419
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Speaker 2: do hip hop artists, when people respond and yact the

420
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Speaker 2: same way. And you know, I just kind of filed

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Speaker 2: that away. But a couple of years later, you know,

422
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Speaker 2: again it's kind of frustrated at the fact that I

423
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Speaker 2: was like trying to figure out how to puncture this

424
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Speaker 2: art world bubble. But you know, wasn't getting any kind

425
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Speaker 2: of callbacks, wasn't getting any kind of acknowledgement or recognition.

426
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Speaker 2: I couldn't get my work in the gallery. So it's like, well,

427
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Speaker 2: maybe they can't pronounce my name. I'm gonna do something

428
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: to make sure that my name sticks out in their head.

429
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 2: And so I came up with the whole Fahamu Pakruz

430
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: ship thing is it's kind of like gerrilla marketing strategy,

431
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: just to kind of get my name out there. At

432
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 2: the time, there was no real correlation between that marketing

433
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 2: campaign and what I was doing in my studio practice.

434
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: But eventually those two roads merged, and you know, I

435
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: was able to use that character that I created, that

436
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: persona that I created, this concept that that I created

437
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: as a way to like interject or create an intervention

438
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: in the in the art world. Right, Like when I

439
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: first started doing that in the early two thousands, it

440
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: was very, very very rare to see a black contemporary artist. Right.

441
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: You might hear about Jean Michel Bascial. Maybe if you're

442
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: well informed enough, if you were educated enough, you wouldn't

443
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: have heard of Boscia. Uh. You might hear people talk

444
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: about Kerry James Marshall or Blendliga, But again, if you're

445
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 2: well versed in it, right, you got to be deep

446
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: in it. But for the love, for the most part,

447
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 2: you did not see any black contemporary artist, you know,

448
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 2: in the in the public you know world like that. Uh.

449
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: And so this campaign that I created, in this character

450
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: that I created when I ultimately merged my practice and

451
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: this idea, I intentionally put this character with august like

452
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: hip hop swag and bravado and you know, just disruption

453
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 2: on the covers of these high brow art magazines as

454
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: a way of pointing out, you know, the erasure of

455
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 2: black people in this space and the obsession that our

456
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: society has with like black men of a certain ilk.

457
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: If you are hip hop impressario, oh yeah, come on

458
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: into the room. Right. But as a black artist, I

459
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily invited into those spaces. So now I'm getting

460
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: invited into those spaces. And so it was a really

461
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: kind of subversive act, you know, but a commentary, a

462
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: critical commentary on the art world. Now you'll see you

463
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 2: know your Amy Sherrows and you know Tyler Mitchell's and

464
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: your you know, you name it this Robert Fruits, Hebrew

465
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 2: brandt Leaves, you know what I'm saying, Like you see

466
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: these names and you see people having these conversations, but

467
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: that's relatively new, Like this has you know, been maybe

468
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: since twenty fifteen sixteen that you know, people are now

469
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: starting to pay much more attention to black artists and galleries, museums,

470
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: everybody else scrambling trying to build, you know, their collection

471
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 2: of work by contemporary black artists. But when I first

472
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: started this practice over twenty years ago, that was unheard of.

473
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, and I mean again you talk about

474
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: using you know that specifically as a strategy to kind

475
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: of help you, you know, open doors and get new opportunities.

476
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: One thing I would wonder is, you know, now in

477
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, what strategies which you kind of recommend

478
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: for other immersion artists, you know, to kind of help

479
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: build an audience, to help open doors themselves. You know,

480
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: when you're kind of seeing things from your perspective, should

481
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: they do something similar? Should they you know, finder the

482
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: ways to break through, Like what kind of cuts through

483
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: the noise and helps people get the attention they need

484
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: to kind of showcase their work and the respect it deserves.

485
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that ultimately, always

486
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: without fail cuts through the noise is authenticity, right like,

487
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: when you are true to who you are. That's the

488
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: thing that makes art so compelling and dynamic, is that

489
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: it is reflective of individual perspectives, right Like. It's as

490
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: much as I am talking about black masculinity in a

491
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: broad sense, I can only come at it from my

492
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: own perspective, you know, from my own position. And I

493
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: think that this is, you know, a critical way to

494
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: think about it. Like, you know, people talk about people

495
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 2: talk all the time about artists having a signature style,

496
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 2: right like, it's like your fingerprint, you know, when you

497
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: are authentic to yourself, that's where you cut through the

498
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: noise because no one else people can copy you, but

499
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: nobody can innovate in your lane, but you you know,

500
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: And so you know, while I'm not necessarily reliant on

501
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: that for Humble Purkus a ship character like I was

502
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: in the beginning, the conversations that were in initiated by

503
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: positioning myself as the sort of participant observer, right allow

504
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: me to continue to make critical observations about what's happening

505
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: in the world around me, what's happening in the world

506
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 2: around me as a black man, as a visual artist,

507
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: as someone who is interested and engaged and connected to

508
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: an international black experience. Right, So it's not even just

509
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: for me. It's not even anymore like a black American

510
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: man perspective, but a black man of a global communities

511
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: perspective making this commentary and this critical intervention and the artwork. Yeah.

512
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you talk about authenticity, you know, one thing

513
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: I always kind of tell people is it's the ABC's right. Authenticity, believability,

514
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: and credibility are kind of the three things you need

515
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: in combination to kind of really help cut through so

516
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: that you know, again, the truth always kind of rises

517
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: to the top. And I think you know, if you're

518
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: doing that consistently, people start to recognize it and they

519
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: start to kind of give you the credit you deserve.

520
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: So that's that's a really interesting insight. Now, I know

521
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: there was a major setback. I think it was in

522
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. You had a big fire at your studio,

523
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: and you know that I'm sure that sets you back,

524
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: and that was kind of a devastating situation. But like,

525
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: in that how did you kind of overcome that. What

526
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: were some of the business lessons you learned about, you know,

527
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: resilience and recovery going through that experience.

528
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: For sure, Yeah, it was it was definitely a huge,

529
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: a huge blow. But I have to say, you know,

530
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: not in a not to sound like cocky or arrogant

531
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: or anything like that, but it wasn't the first time

532
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: that I took a blow, you know what I mean, Like,

533
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: it wasn't the first time that I took a hit,

534
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: even as a practicing artist. And so while it was devastating,

535
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: I lost a lot, it was never a moment where

536
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: I was like, damn, that's it, I'm done, you know

537
00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: what I mean. It was just like, okay, you know,

538
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: let's go get up. You know what's next, you know

539
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like and and I think that kind

540
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: of perseverance, tenacity, or maybe even delusion, uh is a

541
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: critical quality for an artist to have because being an

542
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: artist is such a it's it's it's highly personal. While

543
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, uh, you're attempting to

544
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: be to act or operating these kind of universalisms, right,

545
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: but you have to put yourself into a position where

546
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: there's no boss to take the blunt the brun of

547
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: the you know blow. There's no corporation to take the

548
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: brunt of the blow, right, Like when when you take

549
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: an L, you take the L, you know what I mean.

550
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: And you got to figure out how to make that

551
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: L take that L from a loss to a lesson, right,

552
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, one of the greatest things that

553
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: I learned is that Renter's insurance is some bullshit. Particularly

554
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: as an artist, you want to make sure that you

555
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: have a kind of insurance and protection that covers you,

556
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, specific for what your practice is, you know

557
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: what I mean. Like I had a policy that had

558
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: a max payout of twenty five thousand dollars, like that

559
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: didn't cover the cost of one of the paintings that

560
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 2: I lost, you know what I mean. And I lost

561
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: a dozen of works, you know, all of my equipment

562
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: and things that are intangibles, like in terms of like value, right,

563
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: Like you know, when you entered into that studio space,

564
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: there was like a foyer and I had every exhibition

565
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: card that I've had done, you know, since my career started,

566
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: framed on the wall every ward, letters from folks, you know,

567
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: my own like pieces from my own personal art collection, books,

568
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: you know, like things that were of deep, deep, intrinsic

569
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: personal value to me that you know, I can never recover.

570
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: I can never get those things back. But you know,

571
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, sometimes like the devastation,

572
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: the loss of destruction is you know, the clearing of

573
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: a slate to start fresh, you know, to start uh.

574
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: And so you know, I came out of that experience.

575
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: I was able to buy a building that is now

576
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: my studio. You know, I've my my practice you know,

577
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: actually increased from that point, interestingly enough, you know, and

578
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: it wasn't because you know, I've had this loss or

579
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: anything like that. It was I think it was just

580
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: the consistency and to now right, Like, you know, rather

581
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: than giving up, throwing in the towel, wallowing and self pitying,

582
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: I just kept pressing forward, you know, finding new opportunities

583
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: and finding new ways to make it happen.

584
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's one of the measures, right, I mean,

585
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: to your point, we're all going to get knocked down,

586
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: You're gonna get punching the guts can always be something,

587
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: but it's the ability to kind of get back up,

588
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, and pick yourself up. And you know, even

589
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: if you have to go through a little bit of

590
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: a process to you know, just accept what kind of

591
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: happened for a second. You do kind of have to

592
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: make that choice of do I want to stay down

593
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: or get back up? And I always say, like you

594
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: can measure, you know a lot of people by their

595
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: ability to kind of bounce back from those situations because

596
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: it's inevitable. Rights, that's the experience of life.

597
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: You know.

598
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: Somebody told me it's kind of like a roller coaster.

599
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: But the trick is, you know, you don't get too high,

600
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: you don't get too low. You just got to kind

601
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: of find a way to stay right in the middle.

602
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: And so as you went through that, like you know,

603
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: how did kind of the culture in Atlanta kind of

604
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: help rally around you through that whole experience?

605
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: Man? It was really dope, man, I must admit. Man,

606
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: I mean, the outpouring of the court was really crazy.

607
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: My business manager at the time, her name was Karen

608
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 2: Marie Mason, God rest her. Uh you know, she along

609
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: with my wife, initiated like a go fund me campaign,

610
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: you know, to help me like incuperate some of my

611
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: losses and stuff like that. And it was, you know,

612
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: I was really blown away by the support they did

613
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: it without telling me that they did that. But the

614
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: support that we received was was amazing and it actually

615
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: became the seed you know that allowed me to move

616
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: into this new space that I'm in and you know

617
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: just kind of you know, continue to maintain my practice

618
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: and grow my practice. But yeah, I mean, you know,

619
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: people came out of the woodworks. Man. I even received

620
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: a note from like Donald Glover. You know apparently at

621
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: the time he I had a home in mon Park,

622
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: which is where my studio was, and he heard about

623
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: what happened and he just wanted to you know, offer

624
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: his you know, support and condolences, you know, on my

625
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: losses and stuff like that. But you know, it was

626
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: really really really a beautiful moment and really for me,

627
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: uh became a kind of affirmation about you know, the

628
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: quality of uh of care in community that I've been

629
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: able to build uh here in.

630
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: It, yeah, relationships or everything. And like you said, you've

631
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: been working with these people for years and you never

632
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: you never quite know who's watching, right, So to your point,

633
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden you get a message

634
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: from Donald Glover or somebody that you worked with years

635
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: ago kind of pops up, or somebody creates a GoFundMe.

636
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: You know, I think again that just kind of speaks

637
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: to the power of relationships and you know, just kind

638
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: of doing the right thing. And you know, like I

639
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: always say, if you're if you're doing the right thing

640
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: kind of building in public, Atlanta has this weird way

641
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: that it will kind of rally around you and support

642
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: you when you need it most. And so I'm glad

643
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: you went through that experience, not that experience of the fire,

644
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: but I'm glad you went through the experience of Atlanta

645
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: kind of helping the you know, rally around you as

646
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: well as the rest of your network to help you

647
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,959
Speaker 1: rebuild what you lost into something even bigger and better.

648
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: You know, that's just again a testament to you know,

649
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: all the all the seeds that you've probably sown over

650
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: the years right now now on the business side, again,

651
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: early on you kind of said you're not a star

652
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: of an artist. You know, I do want to because

653
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: I do hear a lot of people talk about, you know,

654
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: being an artist and kind of what it takes. But

655
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, as an artist, you know, how have you

656
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: kind of you know, structured your career to kind of

657
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: create a sustainable business and revenue around it, Like, you know,

658
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: what are the things that you do to you know,

659
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of put yourself in that situation so that you

660
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: can make your art while also making a living.

661
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worked, It's worked. Yeah. No. I often credit

662
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: the experience I had, my professional experience from earlier in

663
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: my career with you know, my ability to maintain successful

664
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: business as a practicing artist. But I mentioned earlier that

665
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: I worked as a graphic designer in New York in

666
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: the late nineties. But ultimately, around like two thousand, I

667
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 2: moved back to Atlanta and I started an agency here

668
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: called Diamond Lounge Creative and then ultimately, uh we would

669
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: called Red Creative. Well, we were, uh a graphic design

670
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: studio providing graphics and design for you know a number

671
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: of business sites from again from hip hop artists and

672
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: record labels to politicians to restaurants and nightclubs, et cetera.

673
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: So I did that for over ten years, uh, you know,

674
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: with business partners from Solah and I say it was

675
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: one of my first business partners to Jay Carter or

676
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: any Gay or the laya. You know, we worked together

677
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: for many years doing uh, doing this type of stuff,

678
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: and I learned a lot about how to run a

679
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: business during that time, which all of those skills translated

680
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: directly over to running my art practice and running my

681
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: art business with the exception of you know, part of

682
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: you know, the challenge of being an artists is that

683
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: you want your work to appreciate in value, right. You

684
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: want the because that's the beauty of art, right, Like,

685
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't go down in price, it only goes. But

686
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: the more it goes up, the more difficult it becomes

687
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 2: to place and sell work, right, So, because not everybody

688
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: can afford the ten thousand dollars painting or whatever it

689
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: may be, right, and so you know, I've had to

690
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: figure out ways of pivoting to make one to ensure

691
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: that my work remains accessible to the community and the

692
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: audience that I'm specifically talking to and engaging, you know,

693
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: through through the practice, but also to you know, balance

694
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 2: out you know, that income and ensure that you know, uh,

695
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: you know, if I have a show and I don't

696
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: sell very well, that there's still other streams of revenue

697
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: that are supporting the business, right. And so you learn

698
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: how to diversify as an artist. And I think that

699
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: that's a critical skill artists should should should develop, right. So,

700
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: but there are you know, other practices, right like, you know,

701
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: things like creating contracts and invoices, and you know, I

702
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: have an assistant, you know, a business manager that I

703
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, that are on my staff, right like I

704
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: have other like collaborators like photographers and you know folks

705
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: like that. So I have to make sure that I'm

706
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: able to take care of all of my you know,

707
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: support systems, but also be able to take care of

708
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: my family at the same time. Uh. And so they're

709
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 2: still very often tough lessons that I have to learn,

710
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm never afraid or shy about admitting that,

711
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: right Like, I don't know it all. And so I'm

712
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: constantly right to learn and improve and be better at

713
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: what it is that I do. But ultimately, I think

714
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: you know understanding how businesses work. And I encourage any

715
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: any person who's listening who is an aspiring artist to

716
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: study and understand business, like learn business, because you are

717
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: an effects a business. You are an entrepreneur, you know,

718
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: and you know just being a creative will not sustain

719
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, learning how to negotiate contracts,

720
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: learning how to demand what your value is, what your

721
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 2: work is right, Like learning how to promote and market

722
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: and present yourself, learning how to apply for grants right

723
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: grants and your taxes like, all of these things are

724
00:40:52,600 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: like critical, critical, critical skills and requirements for running a business.

725
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes alatists skip sort of like push on

726
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: the back burner because you just want to be creative.

727
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: You just want to make stuff, you know what I mean.

728
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: And I'll say this too. If you know you're not

729
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: good at doing those things, if that's not something that

730
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,959
Speaker 2: you're willing to take the time to invest in from

731
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: your own skill set, bring somebody on your team who

732
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: does know your strengths, play to your strengths, you know

733
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: what I mean, because those things can make or break you, right,

734
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: Like if you are not doing the things to maintain

735
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: your business, and your business will not be successful. Yeah.

736
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I've worked around in the agency space

737
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: myself for the last decade plus, and there's always, especially

738
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 1: in working with creatives, there's always this idea of are

739
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: we working in the business or on the business. And

740
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: to your point, you know, like everybody doesn't necessarily want

741
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: to run a business. Some people just want to really

742
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: focus on the creative part. And so That's where I

743
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: kind of tell my team all the time. It's like, look,

744
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: just do only the things that you can do, you know,

745
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: especially if you have the ability to you know, delegate

746
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: other tasks, you know, where I've kind of found a

747
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: really interesting niche for myself. As I always say, I'm

748
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: in the business of creative and so while I don't

749
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: consider myself necessarily be a full creative, I'm really good

750
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: at like all the administrative operational stuff, you know. And

751
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: for me, what that allows the people that work around

752
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: me to do is that it allows me to take that

753
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: burden off of them so they can put all their

754
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: energy towards kind of you know, being creative and just

755
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, doing things that really empower them. So to

756
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: your point, that's a decision. I think that's something that

757
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: people have to be really honest with themselves about, is

758
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, where do I want to be at in

759
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: this Do I want to be that person? Because you

760
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: don't have to Again, there's totally there's plenty of ways

761
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: right now, especially you know after COVID and the way

762
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: that the internet's out here and it's kind of brought

763
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: the world together. Like I tell people, you can go

764
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: find some of the best world class talent anywhere. You know,

765
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: you don't have to have a bookkeeper in Atlanta, you

766
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean, You don't have to have a

767
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: project manager in the States, right, Like, you can find

768
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: people all over the world that can help support you

769
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: can build this kind of global team of people that

770
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: really help support you. So but again, it all starts

771
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: you being honest about yourself and your capabilities and kind

772
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: of you know what you want to build. And so

773
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: again like that's you know, definitely shows how you've been

774
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: able to kind of grow that element of the business.

775
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: Now you know, we're going to read to wrap up

776
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: in a second. But one question I have is how

777
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: do people value art? Like I always see art? Again,

778
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I don't know, Like how

779
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: does a piece of art work? Like what determines a

780
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: piece of art being you know, one thousand dollars versus

781
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: ten thousand versus one hundred thousand dollars? Right, Like, how

782
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: does art even get valued in your perspective?

783
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 2: That can be a tricky question. I'll be just keeping

784
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: in one hundred with That can be a tricky question

785
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: because not everyone, not everyone has the best of intentions,

786
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: you know, but also not everyone is is equally inforced, right,

787
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: So sometimes you have people who you know are really

788
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: just trying to hustle, you know, they're just trying to

789
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: come up take advantage of somebody. But then you have

790
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, I feel really fortunate that the people who

791
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 2: have counseled me and advised me and mentored me along

792
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: my journey. My relationships go back twenty thirty years with

793
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: these folks, you know what I'm saying, Like they have

794
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: been significant parts of my life and have invested greatly

795
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: and making sure that I, you know, that I could

796
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: be successful at what I do. Right. One of the

797
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: first lessons that I learned was as an emerging artist,

798
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 2: not to price yourself out of the market. Right. So,

799
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: especially now given the influence of social media and stuff

800
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 2: like that, you know, so many young artists who see

801
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: people sell and work with ten thousand, fifteen, twenty thirty whatever,

802
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 2: you know, a thousand dollars and they're like, oh, I

803
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: can do that, and they want to sell a painting

804
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: for twenty thirty thousand dollars. Maybe you're lucky to sell

805
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: that painting for twenty thirty thousand dollars, But guess how

806
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: many people can afford to buy a twenty thirty thousand

807
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: dollars work, right, So now you've just cut off you know,

808
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: many many people who could have supported your rise, right,

809
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: So you want to have a slow burn, right, always

810
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: advise you know, you know again this was advice given

811
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: to me. Like a slow burned start off modist builds

812
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 2: a community of collectors around you who are going to

813
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 2: advocate for you. We're going to tell other people about

814
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 2: you who are going to keep coming back and buying

815
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: more of your work. Have collectors who have six, seven, eight, nine, ten,

816
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: twelve pieces of mind in the collection, you know what

817
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: I mean, Like, you know, they've been riding with me

818
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 2: on this journey for a long time. But as you grow,

819
00:45:52,360 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 2: as you have various markets of success, you know, time

820
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 2: you do a new show or you have a new thing,

821
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 2: you can tweet turn the volume up on those prices

822
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: just a little bit, right. So you know, when I

823
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: first started, like my very first show in two thousand

824
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: and five, I think the most expensive painting I had

825
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: was thirty five hundred dollars, you know, and it was huge,

826
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, but you know, by that was two thousand

827
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: and five, By two thousand and seven or so, average

828
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: price in my work might have been like forty five

829
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: hundred dollars, thirty five hundred, you know what I mean.

830
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: By twenty ten, you know, now we're seventy five hundred dollars,

831
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. So we're like ticking up, yeah,

832
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: picking up. But again with every accomplishment, Oh oh you

833
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: got a master's degree. Now, oh that means you have this.

834
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: Oh you did a retrospective in France. Oh, now your

835
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: work is at this. You have a PhD. Oh, your

836
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: work is at this. You know what I'm saying. So

837
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 2: like it builds up with the artists, it builds up

838
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: with their career. Right. That's one way of the time

839
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: termining the value you know another uh and and again

840
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: for the most part, I don't determine that, right. The

841
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: galleries that I work with represent they determine based on

842
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: the market, based on comparable artists who you know what

843
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: I mean, who are doing things. This is where we

844
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: need to be. We need to be in this range,

845
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: you know. And that's a responsible practice because it means

846
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: you get to grow, people get to grow with you.

847
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: It's consistent, right, so you know, somebody's not going to

848
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 2: go down the street and get a fahamu for two

849
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: thousand dollars when this person over here is telling you

850
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: that it's twenty thousand dollars. You know what I'm saying,

851
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 2: because now that complicates a compromise, is actually your value

852
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: in the market, because if I can get it for

853
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 2: cheap over here, why would I buy it from over here?

854
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: Those are kind of like the professional practice way of

855
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 2: determined value. But I think the question that you're asking

856
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: me is more about the kind of like trinsic value,

857
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: and that's a bit more subjective. That intrinsic value really

858
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: boils down to something as simple as what do you

859
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: feel when you look at this work? How does it

860
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: make you feel? That's the value of it, Like, how

861
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: important is this to you? Does this say something? Does

862
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 2: this touch your soul? Does this reach you? Does this

863
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: connect with you? Is this something you want to wake

864
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: up and look at every day? Is it going to

865
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: get you? Know what I'm saying, Like, that's something you

866
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: can't quite put a number on, And for me, that

867
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: is the more important value of the work. How does

868
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 2: it connect? What story does it tell? How does it elevate?

869
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: How does it move us? How does it grow us. Right,

870
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: This to me is the most important thing. And that's

871
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: why I often bristle, you know when people say, oh,

872
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'll do a talk some ways place, and

873
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: you know, one of the kids will raise their hand

874
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: and say, what's the most expensive ating year of AI sold?

875
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: Like I can tell you, But that's not the real

876
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: value of it, right, Like, the value of it isn't

877
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: how much it costs. And and I think we have to,

878
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: particularly when it comes to art, we have to start

879
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: having a different kind of conversation about values, you know,

880
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 2: other than the commodity, other than the economic or financial

881
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: cost of it, Like what is the real value? Like

882
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: what is this doing for the culture? What's this doing

883
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: for a society? What is this doing for us as

884
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 2: a people? What is this doing for me as a person? Right?

885
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: Like these are the questions that I think are more important.

886
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 2: And why again, I'm really like adamant about trying to

887
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: dispel and and reorient you know, my community around art,

888
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: because until we put that kind of like in transic

889
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: personal social cultural value as important, then we'll forever be

890
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: consumers of our own culture. Yeah you know what I'm saying,

891
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: Like other people will take the reins and tell us

892
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 2: what's important for us, tell us what's important to us

893
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: as opposed to us investing in our own stuff, right,

894
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 2: investing in our own community, investing in our own artists,

895
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 2: building our own institutions, you know, creating spaces for us

896
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: to have the conversations we need to have without having

897
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 2: to edit ourselves or shrink ourselves to make other people

898
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: feel comfortable with who we are and what we have

899
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: to say.

900
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you know, I guess piggybacking off of that,

901
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on AI now? With AI starting

902
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: to evolve? And you know, I know a lot of

903
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: the AIS you know, informed by you know, art and

904
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: content that's been created out there in the past. But

905
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, what are your thoughts on AI and how

906
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: that is going to affect just the entire artistic space

907
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: in general? Like I don't think that it'll get rid

908
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: of the need for artists and creatives at all, But

909
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, like, what are your thoughts on how just

910
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: setting like how AI and these different AI tools can

911
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: either you know, help artists be more efficient or will

912
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: it you know, hurt the industry? What do you think

913
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: some of them?

914
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? Now, I think it will be it's interesting. It's

915
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: kind of like I was talking to somebody the other

916
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: day and they made a really good point. They were like, yeah,

917
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: remember when the Internet first started and everybody was afraid

918
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: of the Internet. You know what I'm saying, Like, Uh,

919
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 2: you know, AI is essentially just a tool. That's all

920
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 2: it is. You know, it can only do what you know,

921
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: put in for it to do. You know what I'm saying, Like,

922
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: it's not going to outpace artists, It's not going to

923
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 2: replace artists, right Like, in fact, I'm you know, very

924
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 2: much in my own personal deep dive into learning how

925
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: to use AI as a tool to inform my practice.

926
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: Right Like, you know, in my practice, I start everything

927
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 2: out by orchestrating art, directing, and even modeling in photo

928
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: shoots where I create reference images for my paintings. But

929
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: sometimes the ideas that I have I'm not able to

930
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: you know, replicate through conventional photography. Maybe I don't have

931
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: the resources to rig myself up to look like I'm

932
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 2: floating in the air and do X, Y and Z.

933
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 2: But if I'm able to you know, appropriately prompt AI

934
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,399
Speaker 2: to generate a reference images image for me, then I can,

935
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: you know, my ideas can expand even further, you know,

936
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 2: because now I'm not limited to what I can do

937
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: financially or even physically right like it's and so I

938
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: think for those reasons, AI will ultimately, you know, will

939
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: ultimately find a rhythm with it. But I think it's

940
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: so new now that people are intimidated by it. And

941
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: you know, there are people who are making these projections

942
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 2: and predictions about AI that are not always rooted in reality.

943
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: You know, you know, they're talking about AI being able

944
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 2: to do the things that you know, in five years

945
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: we'll be able to do X, Y and Z. Maybe maybe,

946
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 2: but maybe not, you know what I'm saying. And if

947
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 2: you know, to to to start moving fearful of something

948
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: that might happen, you know, it's always a death sentence, right,

949
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: so you know, rather than run from it, I try

950
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 2: to embrace it and figure out how I can make

951
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 2: it do what it do.

952
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that reminds me of something one of

953
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: my mentors used to say all the time, which is,

954
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: if you don't like change, you're going to like being

955
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: irrelevant a whole lot less. And to your point, right,

956
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: like whether people agree with you know, the implementation of

957
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: AI and the use of it. Just the idea that

958
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: you know, embracing the tools and learning how they might

959
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: be able to help make you more efficient and seeing

960
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: where the opportunity is is something that everybody should embrace.

961
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: So what I'd like to ask you before we get

962
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: out of here is what's a piece of advice or

963
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: a kind of a model that you live by that

964
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 1: you'd like to share with with our audience.

965
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 2: Oh well, one that is to stick in my mind

966
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: is a is a quote now or a story that

967
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna maybe butcher a little bit. But there's a

968
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: story about a mentee of Frederick Douglas who you know

969
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 2: studied with him and you know, followed him and assisted

970
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 2: him and stuff like that. And on Frederick Douglas's deathbed,

971
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, he asked him, how can I continue the

972
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 2: work that you've done? What do I need to do

973
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: to continue this good fight? And Frederick Douglas's words were agitate, Agitate, agitate.

974
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: And so that's the advice that I would share, you know.

975
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: And and you know, with the caveat that I'm not

976
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: suggesting or proposing to h to agitate for the sake

977
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: of being a nuisance. But you know, in in your

978
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 2: observations in your movement in the world. Find ways to disrupt,

979
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, things that you see as being accepted as

980
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 2: normal that can be improved, that is bringing harm to people.

981
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: Like how can you make the world better? Like through

982
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 2: whatever it is that you do, what little thing that

983
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: you can do to make it one? You know, you

984
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 2: don't got to change the world, just change what you can,

985
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And I think the only

986
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: way we do that is by agitating, right, And sometimes

987
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 2: that's as simple as asking the question that nobody else

988
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 2: has asked. Sometimes that's as simple as trying to create

989
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: something in the world that you think would make the

990
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: world better that you just haven't seen yet, right, Like

991
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's being curious but also being but

992
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 2: also having conditions.

993
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, doctor Fahamu Paku, we appreciate you being on

994
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 1: Better Nomics. This has been the amazing conversation. I've learned

995
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: a lot. I'm sure audience has learned a lot. Before

996
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: we get out of here. Just tell people how they

997
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: can find you, support you, buy art from you, all

998
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: that good stuff.

999
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: But sure, for sure you can follow me on Instagram.

1000
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: My idea is just my name. Fahamu forku f a

1001
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 2: h A m u p e c o u h.

1002
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 2: I'm also online for hamu forkou art f a h

1003
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 2: A m u p e c o u a r

1004
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: t dot com. And you can support by books by Prince,

1005
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 2: by T shirts and other swag on my studio site,

1006
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 2: which is studio Kywo dot com Studio s t U

1007
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 2: d i O k a w O dot com.

1008
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you so much for joining us,

1009
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: and that's the pod. Y'all have a great one peace.

1010
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: You've been listening to button Nomics and I'm your host,

1011
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: Brandon Butler. Comments feedback. Want to be a part of

1012
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: the show, send us an email today at hello at

1013
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: butterdomics dot com. Butter Nomics is produced in Atlanta, Georgia

1014
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,600
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1015
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,160
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1016
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: hit that subscribe button and never missed an episode, and

1017
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,319
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1018
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1019
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