WEBVTT - S1: Ep 5 - Game On

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, all, we have some exciting news to share. Paramount

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<v Speaker 1>Plus has turned Burden of Guilt into a docuseries. You

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<v Speaker 1>will get to meet the people involved, You'll hear from

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<v Speaker 1>the people who have never spoken before, and you get

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<v Speaker 1>to see where the story took place. We are so

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<v Speaker 1>proud and excited to share.

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<v Speaker 2>It with you.

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<v Speaker 1>You can stream it right now on Paramount Plus.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you have any reservation at all about having that child?

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<v Speaker 2>Of course not.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you ever have any.

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<v Speaker 3>Second thoughts about why did I have this child in

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<v Speaker 3>the first time?

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<v Speaker 2>Never? My children were everything to me.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Nancy Glass and this is Burden of Guilt, Episode five,

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<v Speaker 1>Game on. It was the second day of testimony in

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<v Speaker 1>the State of Georgia versus Jan Barry Sandlin wife Tracy

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<v Speaker 1>Raquel's mother, Kathy Allman, was on the stand. She would

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<v Speaker 1>be questioned for six hours. Jeff Brickman went first for

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution.

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<v Speaker 4>How had you met Jan Berry Sam?

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<v Speaker 2>I met him in the sixth grade when I was

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<v Speaker 2>about eleven or twelve years old.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you care for mister Sam went back in nineteen seventy.

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<v Speaker 2>One, Yes, that is.

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<v Speaker 1>Lead Assistant District Attorney Jeff Brickman then wanted to know

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<v Speaker 1>what happened in the hours leading to Matthew's death.

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<v Speaker 4>December twenty seventh, nineteen seventy one. I want you to

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<v Speaker 4>tell the members of the jury. It's best you can

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<v Speaker 4>remember what it is you did that day, starting in

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<v Speaker 4>the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>I fed the kid's breakfast, bathed im like I always do,

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<v Speaker 2>got them dressed, played with matt That's pretty much for

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<v Speaker 2>the morning. Then I took Tracy to the pediatrician.

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<v Speaker 1>In episode three, I told you how Kathy brought Tracy

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<v Speaker 1>Raquel to the doctor to be treated for bruises and

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<v Speaker 1>a bleeding ear and asked for the baby. Before Kathy

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<v Speaker 1>left the house that day, she laid the baby down

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<v Speaker 1>for a nap and then left him under Jan's supervision.

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<v Speaker 4>When you put him down for a nap on December

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<v Speaker 4>twenty seventh, nineteen seventy one, as far as you knew,

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<v Speaker 4>was he healthy?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Was he breathing yes, Kathy says. When she came home,

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<v Speaker 1>Jan told her to leave Tracy Roquel with him and

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<v Speaker 1>go get the laundry out of the car. She says,

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<v Speaker 1>when she came back into the apartment, Tracy Roquel was

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<v Speaker 1>nowhere to be seen.

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<v Speaker 4>Then what did you do?

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<v Speaker 2>I panicked and wanted to know where Tracy was, and

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<v Speaker 2>Jan said, I don't know. She was right here in

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<v Speaker 2>front of me. And I was panicking, like, well, why

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<v Speaker 2>didn't you see where she went? She's only two years old,

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<v Speaker 2>she should keep an eye her.

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<v Speaker 4>So what did you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Started frantically running around the house looking for Tracy?

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<v Speaker 4>Were there only a certain number of rooms? Wish to look?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 4>Did you look in the room?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 4>Did you find her when you first started looking for her?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 4>Where did you find her in Matt's bed? What was

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<v Speaker 4>she doing in the bed sitting? Did you see Matt?

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<v Speaker 2>Not at first?

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<v Speaker 4>Did you do at some point see him?

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<v Speaker 2>Then I walked in over to Tracy because I thought

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<v Speaker 2>she was in the bed with Matt, and I panicked.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when I got to the bed, Matt wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>in there, and I saw him laying on the floor

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<v Speaker 2>next to the chester drawers.

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<v Speaker 4>What did he look like?

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<v Speaker 2>He looked fine, but he was breathing real heavy.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you have a chance to look at his face

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<v Speaker 4>or his eyes?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? I held him and looked at him. He wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>wake up. And one eye was dilated all the way

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<v Speaker 2>in and one was all the way out, and he

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<v Speaker 2>just wouldn't wake up, and he was breathing funny.

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew would never wake up.

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<v Speaker 2>What if anything to mister Samlin did he started to

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<v Speaker 2>grab Tracy up in Spiker.

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<v Speaker 1>One child was dying and the other was being punished.

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<v Speaker 4>If you would describe for the member of the jury

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<v Speaker 4>as best you can, what was your condition right then?

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<v Speaker 2>I was in a status shock.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you recall much about what happened after that night? No?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>According to the recorded phone call between Kathy and Tracy Riquel,

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<v Speaker 1>Cathy had no memory of the two weeks that followed

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew's death, and she says Jan kept her in seclusion.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you have any idea how he had died?

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<v Speaker 2>No? I thought it was an accident in a horrible accent.

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<v Speaker 1>But records show that authorities were told that two year

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<v Speaker 1>old Tracy Roquel threw Matthew out of the crib and

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<v Speaker 1>killed him.

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<v Speaker 4>Anytime, were you led to believe that it was an accident?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, how through the police and everybody around me.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you believe that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? I believed it.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you have any reason not to believe that?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I did.

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<v Speaker 4>At any time, did you have an opportunity to talk

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<v Speaker 4>with mister Sandlin about what happened to Matt that day? Yes,

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<v Speaker 4>what did he tell you?

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<v Speaker 2>You tell me it was a terrible accident and I

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<v Speaker 2>needed to accept it and get over it.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you take him out his work?

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<v Speaker 2>Pretty much?

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<v Speaker 4>Anything about that?

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<v Speaker 1>Kathy Aumen was asked why all those years later she

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<v Speaker 1>stuck with that story and repeated it to her daughter

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<v Speaker 1>even when it didn't make sense.

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<v Speaker 4>You were called telling her that there was easier to

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<v Speaker 4>believe what I was led to believe. Yes, what did

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<v Speaker 4>you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 2>What I meant was, when you're in a state of

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<v Speaker 2>shock and you just lost your child, it's somehow emotionally

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<v Speaker 2>easier to accept an accident than it would be to

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<v Speaker 2>accept that he was murdered.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you want to believe that it was possible that

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<v Speaker 4>he could have done this to your child? Did you

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<v Speaker 4>want to believe that?

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<v Speaker 2>Then? No, this was a person that I loved since

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<v Speaker 2>I was twelve years old. I thought he was the

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<v Speaker 2>love of my life.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you have any reservation at all about having that child?

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<v Speaker 2>Of course not.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you ever have any.

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<v Speaker 3>Second thoughts about why did I have this child in

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<v Speaker 3>the first time?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Never? My children were everything to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Brickman asked Kathy about her own involvement in her

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<v Speaker 1>son's death.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you kill him?

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<v Speaker 5>No?

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>She also told the court why she kept this a

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<v Speaker 1>secret from Tracy Riquel.

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<v Speaker 4>Why wasn't it easy for you to talk about this

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<v Speaker 4>with Tracy.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I didn't want to hurt her if she had

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<v Speaker 2>done it, I really wasn't sure.

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<v Speaker 4>Did she question you about it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, a lot, lot for about ten years.

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<v Speaker 4>Was there a point in time when Tracy asked you

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<v Speaker 4>to grant a release of the medical records?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 4>Did you do that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Why did you do it? Because I want the

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<v Speaker 2>truth to come out.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to know what happened to my son and

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<v Speaker 1>for Cathy, the idea that Tracy Raquel killed her brother

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<v Speaker 1>didn't seem out of the question.

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<v Speaker 4>If it was an accident, was Tracy the person it

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<v Speaker 4>would have been the cause of the accident?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, well either her Jan, I don't know. They were

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<v Speaker 2>the only two in the.

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<v Speaker 1>House, that's true. The only two people home were a

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<v Speaker 1>grown adult and a two year old Jan. Sandlan's lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>Carin Maul was ready for the cross examination.

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<v Speaker 5>Now, Tracy was and is a fairly very intelligent young lady,

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<v Speaker 5>and she and she was developmentally advanced. She was walking

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<v Speaker 5>when she was nine months old, right, and she was talking.

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<v Speaker 5>She wasn't talking yet, she was about twelve months. She

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<v Speaker 5>wasn't talking yet. She could just say MoMA and bye bye.

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<v Speaker 5>She was walking at nine months. And she was a

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<v Speaker 5>caretaker in a sense, wasn't she of Matt? She took

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<v Speaker 5>care of her. You called her once the little mother,

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<v Speaker 5>didn't you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's hard to know what Karen Maul was going

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<v Speaker 1>for here. How would Tracy Raquel's ability to walk and

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<v Speaker 1>talk around the age of one make a difference in

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<v Speaker 1>this case. Karin's next line of questioning was about baby

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<v Speaker 1>Matt's condition on the day he died.

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<v Speaker 5>When you left Matt, there wasn't anything on his body.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you mean there was?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean there wasn't any old bruises on the house neck, No,

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<v Speaker 5>no mark. Sorry, there wasn't anything on his left heel.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, remember when Matthew was brought to the hospital night

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<v Speaker 1>he died, doctors noticed a bruised clavicle and a burnmark

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<v Speaker 1>on his left foot.

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<v Speaker 5>No, okay, So it must have shocked you when you

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<v Speaker 5>read those medical reports.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, very much so.

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<v Speaker 5>Now you testified here today that you ran around the

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<v Speaker 5>house frantically looking for Tracy. And we've already established that

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<v Speaker 5>we basically got two bedrooms right right, very small apartment,

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<v Speaker 5>so not a whole lot of running around, right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>we're going in one bedroom, in the other correct.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and in the kitchen, and on the back porch

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<v Speaker 2>and on the front. I was looking everywhere for it.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, you didn't go into the bedrooms. Evidently didn't go

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<v Speaker 5>into Matt's bedrooms.

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<v Speaker 2>At first. I looked in there and I didn't see her.

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<v Speaker 2>But I wasn't looking at his bed because I thought

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<v Speaker 2>he was a sweep.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, but it's a small room. If you had stood

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<v Speaker 5>in the doorway and looked in, you'd have seen whoever

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<v Speaker 5>was there.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, I glanced in the first time, the

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<v Speaker 2>second time I found.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's step out of the courtroom for a minute here

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about what Tracy Riquel had been through over

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<v Speaker 1>the course of her life. As you know, Tercy Raquel

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<v Speaker 1>suffered a lot. During her childhood. Jan Sanlin was extremely

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<v Speaker 1>abusive and some stories were frankly too horrific to broadcast.

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<v Speaker 1>As a teenager, she had attempted suicide and her mother

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<v Speaker 1>tried to have her committed to a psychiatric hospital. By

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<v Speaker 1>the mid eighties, Tracy Raquel had read the incident report

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<v Speaker 1>that showed Matthew had suffered a head injury, but there

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<v Speaker 1>was no investigation. Despite her fragile state, she wanted answers.

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<v Speaker 5>Nineteen eighty six, she starts confronting you, and during this

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<v Speaker 5>period of time, you tell her the truth. What do

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<v Speaker 5>you believe is the truth? You tell her that she's responsible.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't tell her that.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, what did you tell her?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know how to answer that question. She

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<v Speaker 2>was having problems in trying to help her with the problems,

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<v Speaker 2>I brought it up. What did you say? I told

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<v Speaker 2>her what had happened, that it was an accident.

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<v Speaker 5>Did you tell her that she threw the baby out

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<v Speaker 5>of the crip?

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<v Speaker 2>I may have at some point, I really don't remember.

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<v Speaker 5>Let's just step back from that. Sometime in eighty five

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<v Speaker 5>or eighty six, to help your daughter, you brought up

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<v Speaker 5>the fact that she may have been responsible for throwing

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<v Speaker 5>the baby out of the crib.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the truth is, my mother actually told her how

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<v Speaker 2>matt died. I told therapists and people what I thought happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and we were trying to help Tracy deal with Let's.

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<v Speaker 5>Let's take one fact at a time. Did you tell

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<v Speaker 5>your daughter sometime in eighty five or eighty six that

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<v Speaker 5>she maybe No, I told her therapist.

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<v Speaker 1>Tracy Raquel didn't know, but Cathy had no problem stating

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<v Speaker 1>it as fact her two year old was capable of murder.

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<v Speaker 5>Isn't it true, Miss Almond, that you told them that

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<v Speaker 5>it was possible that you believed that Tracy, with her

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<v Speaker 5>heavy baby shoes, stepped on Matthew's head. Yes, you tell

0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 5>that to Sergeant Unis when you talk to.

0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Him nineteen eighty five.

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.480
<v Speaker 5>I don't remember you tell that to mister Brickman and

0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:56.280
<v Speaker 5>Miss Mango.

0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I may have mentioned it, I don't remember.

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 5>You don't well, missus Almond, you wrote a statements for

0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.000
<v Speaker 5>sergeant's units, didn't you. Yes, from nineteen ninety five. Yes,

0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 5>you put it in that statement.

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember.

0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:16.400
<v Speaker 5>Did Miss Mann ask you to sign a release so

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.960
<v Speaker 5>that she could see the records from PIA.

0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:19.600
<v Speaker 2>No.

0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:25.480
<v Speaker 1>PIA stands for the Psychiatric Institute of Atlanta, the facility

0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 1>where Kathy had Tracy Riquel committed.

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 5>She never asked you that. Did you ever tell her

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.120
<v Speaker 5>that you had talked to folks at PIA.

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.640
<v Speaker 2>No, Tracy was only there for a brief time, just

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.040
<v Speaker 2>to be evaluated. But you had told I told him

0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.440
<v Speaker 2>about Matt's death because I thought maybe that was what

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:47.480
<v Speaker 2>was wrong with her.

0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:53.800
<v Speaker 5>And you told them that it was possible that Tracy,

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.559
<v Speaker 5>with her heavy baby shoes, stepped on Matt's head and then.

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Possibly trying to figure out what happened.

0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 5>You also mentioned that there was some thought that maybe

0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 5>mister Sandlin did it right, right, okay, but that you

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:17.040
<v Speaker 5>believed and correct me if I'm mistaken that she was

0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 5>wearing heavy baby shoes right, yes, and that she could

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.280
<v Speaker 5>have crushed the baby's skull that way.

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't remember exactly that. I was just trying

0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.000
<v Speaker 2>to throw up ideas of anything that would help her.

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm having a hard time with this. Kathy wants to

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 1>help Tracy Raquel get over something she isn't even aware of,

0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 1>and so I'm.

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.240
<v Speaker 5>Making sure I understand January first, nineteen eighty five, when

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 5>you're talking to the social worker, at that point in time,

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 5>Tracy doesn't know that she is in any way responsible, right,

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 5>So you're not trying to help her, right, I'm trying

0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:59.320
<v Speaker 5>to help Tracy, Okay, but you're not telling Tracy this right, right? Okay.

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:04.240
<v Speaker 5>So January of nineteen eighty five, you were talking to therapists, correct,

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.240
<v Speaker 5>and you mentioned about Tracy possibly throwing the baby out

0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 5>of the bed, right. You mentioned about crushing the baby's skull,

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 5>and you mentioned about, well, the authorities have some suspicion

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 5>that maybe it didn't happen that way, right, right, That

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.440
<v Speaker 5>it had been ruled an accident, yes, And that you

0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 5>had married this man in nineteen seventy three, yes, And

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.440
<v Speaker 5>that you had lived with him as a married that

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:38.360
<v Speaker 5>you had been married until nineteen eighty right. And at

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 5>that time you told the therapists that you believed that

0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 5>Tracy threw the baby out of the bed.

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's what I believed for a long time. The

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 2>police and the investigation and all led me to believe that.

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 5>Okay. So it was the police and the investigation investigators

0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.400
<v Speaker 5>that led you to believe that Tracy threw the baby

0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 5>from the bed.

0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, what investigation in nineteen seventy one? There was no investigation,

0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 1>That's what God Tracy riquelso interested in the first place.

0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.400
<v Speaker 5>Did the police also lead you to believe that Tracy

0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 5>might have stepped on the baby's head with her heavy

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:18.920
<v Speaker 5>baby shoes.

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember where that came from. I thought maybe

0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I was just trying to figure it out in my

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 2>mind somehow.

0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:32.040
<v Speaker 5>Didn't miss rain tell you that to find out at

0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.880
<v Speaker 5>the age of fifteen that she was responsible for the

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 5>death of her brother, that that was pretty traumatic for Yes,

0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:49.840
<v Speaker 5>And she says to you at that point that it

0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.360
<v Speaker 5>has caused her a lot of pain and anguish to

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:57.080
<v Speaker 5>carry the burden from nineteen eighty five when she's fifteen

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 5>to today, at that time ninety four, that she was

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 5>responsible for the death of her brother.

0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's where she says.

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.720
<v Speaker 5>Miss Almond. Isn't it true that Tracy told you that

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:17.080
<v Speaker 5>she has spent fifteen years believing that she was responsible

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 5>for the death of her brother? Right?

0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.639
<v Speaker 5>And she told you that you never said anything different,

0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.360
<v Speaker 5>In the fact, you told her that she was responsible.

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Correct, That's what I believed.

0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 5>Your mother told your daughter that at the age of fifteen,

0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.200
<v Speaker 5>that she threw her baby brother out of the bed.

0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 5>You told her therapist that she stepped on the baby's spell.

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:47.320
<v Speaker 5>Miss Almond.

0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, I don't recall that, but I could have. She

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 2>had on nephew shoes.

0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.879
<v Speaker 5>You've tried to stop her from digging into it, haven't

0:17:57.920 --> 0:17:58.159
<v Speaker 5>you know?

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.400
<v Speaker 2>I haven't tried to stop her from digging into it.

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I have tried to stop her from harassing me. There's

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:06.560
<v Speaker 2>a big difference.

0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 5>From harassing you from accusing you.

0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 2>If she was accusing me of not knowing what happened,

0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that I should have known.

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.640
<v Speaker 5>I was the mother you testified earlier. She accused you

0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 5>of being directly responsible at one time.

0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, she has had lots of different thoughts about it all.

0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:32.000
<v Speaker 5>Isn't it true that your daughter suggested to you that

0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:39.240
<v Speaker 5>there Isn't it by some chance possible that Jen coersed

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.480
<v Speaker 5>you into saying that I was responsible for it, and

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:49.680
<v Speaker 5>maybe that you told the hospital folks that and that's

0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.920
<v Speaker 5>why they didn't pursue it. Doesn't she ask you those

0:18:52.920 --> 0:19:00.000
<v Speaker 5>sort of things, yes, And your response is I don't

0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 5>think that that's true.

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Right, And then Cathy pointed the finger at Jam.

0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.680
<v Speaker 2>It had to be him because it wasn't me, and

0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 2>no one was else was in there but Tracy. And

0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.440
<v Speaker 2>when we saw the medical reports, there's no why Tracy

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.000
<v Speaker 2>could have done that to him. It had to be

0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>done by somebody else. And the only person there was

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Chan and he tricked me by making me go downstairs

0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and get the clothes so he could put Tracy in

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 2>the bed.

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.159
<v Speaker 5>I am sure of it, okay, Then why in nineteen

0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 5>eighty five didn't you say that.

0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.200
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't sure of it in eighty five.

0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.320
<v Speaker 5>Why miss Allman, if you remember it clear as a bell,

0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.480
<v Speaker 5>didn't you say anytime in nineteen eighty five when you

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.680
<v Speaker 5>were talking to the social worker, why did you suggest

0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.639
<v Speaker 5>to her that your daughter threw the baby out of

0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.919
<v Speaker 5>the bed or crushed the baby with her heavy baby shoes.

0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.400
<v Speaker 5>Why didn't you say he blocked my way. And I'm suspicious.

0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:03.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I simply giving background information to them

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 2>so they could help Tracy. And I thought it was

0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.600
<v Speaker 2>because she was having bad memories about what happened to Man.

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.200
<v Speaker 5>The tombstone that was on the grave at the time

0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 5>of the exhamation says mother's little angel resting to the snow.

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but when Matthew was buried in nineteen seventy one,

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.760
<v Speaker 1>his tombstone read great grandson of Arthur Ahmann, and that

0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:34.160
<v Speaker 1>was it.

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:35.600
<v Speaker 2>That's not the.

0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.640
<v Speaker 5>Original stone, isn't That stone was placed two or three

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:44.720
<v Speaker 5>days before the exhibition two or three days before you

0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:52.480
<v Speaker 5>and Ms. Mangoon and mister Brickman and everybody else that

0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.280
<v Speaker 5>was that the exhibition two or three days before that.

0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I wanted to take the opportunity to her at

0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:02.320
<v Speaker 2>that time. Didn't make a new.

0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 5>One show everyone. No, you did not wait until after

0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 5>the exculution.

0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.560
<v Speaker 2>No, I just wanted to in place for the reburial,

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.639
<v Speaker 2>and that was the time that we could get it done.

0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Or it was because the media would be covering the exhumation.

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Let's get back to Tracy Raquel. She was home when

0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Kathy was on the stand because she had been dismissed

0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 1>and had two small children waiting for her in Savannah.

0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.320
<v Speaker 6>The judge had said, no one is supposed to watch

0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.080
<v Speaker 6>the trial. You're a witness, so to question yourself, okay.

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 6>I went home and there were family in the house,

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.399
<v Speaker 6>and people were in and the court was on in

0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.000
<v Speaker 6>another room and the den in the house, and I

0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 6>walked from the laundry room with the laundry and I

0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.840
<v Speaker 6>caught a glimpse of Kathy on the television and she

0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.560
<v Speaker 6>was satisfying. The prosecution called me that night.

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Former Assistant District Attorney Leeann Mangoon.

0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:04.960
<v Speaker 7>I called her that night. I remember I was standing

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:06.800
<v Speaker 7>in my kitchen and this was back in the days

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.480
<v Speaker 7>when there was bones on the wall with a cord,

0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.439
<v Speaker 7>so I remember standing there with this phone and said

0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:14.879
<v Speaker 7>something about your mom testified.

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:15.520
<v Speaker 1>It all went.

0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.199
<v Speaker 7>Okay, and I don't remember her exact words, but she

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.000
<v Speaker 7>told me she had watched it on TV and my

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 7>heart sunk.

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Tracy rerickkil says it wasn't intentional. It was only a

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:32.720
<v Speaker 1>few seconds, but it was enough. Lead Assistant District Attorney Jeff.

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:37.159
<v Speaker 8>Rickman, we didn't think we had any choice but to

0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.479
<v Speaker 8>bring that to the attention immediately to Judge Fuller, and

0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:43.879
<v Speaker 8>we hoped, the hope of hopes that he wasn't going

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.680
<v Speaker 8>to declare a mistrial. I don't think Tracy did anything intentional.

0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.359
<v Speaker 8>Tracy thought her testimony was over. There was nothing that

0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 8>she did wrong. It wasn't going to change the course

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:56.480
<v Speaker 8>of anything.

0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.080
<v Speaker 7>She was not a fact witness who had something to

0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 7>offer about what happened on the day that Matthew was murdered.

0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.879
<v Speaker 7>So while I knew it was a problem, and I

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.200
<v Speaker 7>knew unquestionably it was something I needed to let the

0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.400
<v Speaker 7>judge know about it. Didn't immediately strike me as something

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:16.760
<v Speaker 7>that was going to result in a mistrial.

0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 1>The prosecutors did their duty and notified the court.

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:23.920
<v Speaker 6>Then they called back an hour later and said, okay,

0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 6>we need you in court. So there's a five am flight.

0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:32.640
<v Speaker 6>I arrived, walked into the courtroom and no jury, nobody

0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.080
<v Speaker 6>in the court, just the judge, the prosecutors, the defense

0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 6>in jan and asked me if I had seen anything

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:40.040
<v Speaker 6>on the television.

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.600
<v Speaker 1>As expected, defense counsel pounced on what happened.

0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 6>The defense asked for a mistrial, that I had broken

0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:50.440
<v Speaker 6>sequester quorders.

0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Judge Fuller heard arguments for and against a mistrial. Everything

0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:57.640
<v Speaker 1>hung in the balance.

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:00.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that I have done any thing wrong

0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:04.600
<v Speaker 2>to effect this man's rights. He has more rights than

0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 2>I have. And I'm sitting here and I'm not charged.

0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.720
<v Speaker 5>You're not going to be sent away for life in

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:10.880
<v Speaker 5>prison as well.

0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.879
<v Speaker 2>I had spent a life in a prison.

0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Corrin mal blamed cameras in the courtroom for causing the problem.

0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.120
<v Speaker 5>This is a man's life, and Jerry Springer is calling.

0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Us and she didn't seem particularly moved by Tracy Riquel.

0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.159
<v Speaker 5>That's something to look forward to. Getting her up on

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:31.280
<v Speaker 5>the stand so she can do what she did. Just now,

0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:36.640
<v Speaker 5>sit and cry, a beautiful crying girl. That's what I'm

0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:37.840
<v Speaker 5>going to confront.

0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Would Judge Fuller allow the trial to continue? Tracy Riquel

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:46.560
<v Speaker 1>held her breath. It was finally possible to get justice

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:50.679
<v Speaker 1>for Matthew, and now her actions could undo all the

0:24:50.840 --> 0:25:02.639
<v Speaker 1>years of work. Tracy Riquel Burns had spent years of

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:06.159
<v Speaker 1>her young life persuading law enforcement that the death of

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.480
<v Speaker 1>her baby brother in nineteen seventy one wasn't an accident

0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:14.119
<v Speaker 1>but a vicious murder, and she had succeeded. But five

0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:18.080
<v Speaker 1>days into the trial, she had violated the judge's order

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:23.920
<v Speaker 1>of sequestration and saw her mother's testimony on television. Defense

0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:27.840
<v Speaker 1>attorney Corin Maul argued for a mistrial and went after

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 1>the prosecution.

0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:33.879
<v Speaker 5>They deliberately deliberately violated your order and your honor. I

0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 5>hate to say that I told everyone so, but I did.

0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.639
<v Speaker 1>She also went after Tracy Riquel.

0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:42.359
<v Speaker 5>She has been tainted and she violated this rule. And

0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:45.399
<v Speaker 5>now when it comes down to it, she's a pretty

0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.200
<v Speaker 5>lovely young woman and she's going to sit there and

0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:54.399
<v Speaker 5>cry and cry and cry and cry. I have no

0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.600
<v Speaker 5>way to process it no way.

0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.200
<v Speaker 1>She saved her last words for the media.

0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 5>Having these folks in here was just basically putting the

0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:08.359
<v Speaker 5>feed into the witnesses, into the jurors homes so that

0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:10.879
<v Speaker 5>they could go home and see what they were not

0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 5>able to see, either because they were sequestered or because

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:15.800
<v Speaker 5>they were in a jury room.

0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Defense attorney carrin Mal made it seem like the most

0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 1>important thing was not proving who did it, but who

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:27.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't do it. And if she could do that, why

0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 1>would you need a trial?

0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:33.840
<v Speaker 9>By dad, I'm going to order one, and I'm sure

0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 9>they're getting the state size and the certificate for Tracy,

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.080
<v Speaker 9>and you're on her considant with the all signed members

0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:41.639
<v Speaker 9>of the press.

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 5>Tracy, you are not responsible for the death of your brother,

0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 5>and let's go home. She isn't responsible, she never was responsible.

0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:53.240
<v Speaker 5>Her mother made her responsible. She now has ruined the claw.

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.159
<v Speaker 5>He can't have fair trial. Let's put an end to

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 5>this show of wanna please moved for miss trial.

0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:11.399
<v Speaker 1>With prejudice with prejudice. Let's talk about that. For a

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:16.880
<v Speaker 1>sec asking for a mistrial with prejudice was an important distinction.

0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 1>If the judge announced that the case was dismissed with prejudice.

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:25.439
<v Speaker 1>That meant it would be permanently dismissed and could not

0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:30.119
<v Speaker 1>be retried. And while the prosecution was upset Tracy Riquel

0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:34.240
<v Speaker 1>broke the sequestration order, they weren't giving up Roder.

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:37.800
<v Speaker 7>I take strong exception with Ms Maul's contention that this

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:42.000
<v Speaker 7>was a purposeful violation. Clearly, if this were wilful disobedience

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 7>of the court's order, she never.

0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:45.080
<v Speaker 4>Would have told me about it.

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:47.760
<v Speaker 7>It was not something which was done intentionally, and it

0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.000
<v Speaker 7>does not rise to the level of an error which

0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:51.119
<v Speaker 7>warrants a mistrial.

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor Lianne Manngun implored Judge Fuller to let the trial continue.

0:27:57.240 --> 0:27:59.800
<v Speaker 5>There are any number of cases which support the position.

0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:04.359
<v Speaker 7>What is affected by her violating the rule is her credibility,

0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 7>not her ability to testify.

0:28:07.040 --> 0:28:09.959
<v Speaker 1>Judge Fuller listened, but he would take his time to

0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:10.679
<v Speaker 1>make a ruling.

0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:13.680
<v Speaker 10>I am not prepared at this moment to rule on

0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 10>the motion for miss Trump. I'm going to recess the

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:22.600
<v Speaker 10>trial until Monday morning. In the meantime, I may or

0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:27.119
<v Speaker 10>may not grant a Miss Trump. I don't blame it

0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:34.240
<v Speaker 10>on the TV coverage, but without it, it wouldn't occurred. There

0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.960
<v Speaker 10>are times in our society that we must pay a

0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 10>price for other freedoms that we have. It could be

0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:46.960
<v Speaker 10>that this case ends up being a casualty in order

0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:51.440
<v Speaker 10>to guarantee that we have other rights.

0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.440
<v Speaker 1>What was your reaction to the idea of a mistrial.

0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:01.840
<v Speaker 6>I didn't do anything. It just really floored me. I

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:05.200
<v Speaker 6>was run over by freight traine. I didn't understand.

0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:12.720
<v Speaker 1>When Monday finally came around, all sides anxiously awaited the

0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:13.920
<v Speaker 1>judge's decision.

0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:18.000
<v Speaker 10>That's true to come in, please, ladies and gentlemen. I

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 10>have a statement to make. There has been an egregious

0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 10>violation of the witness requestration rule, which, in the context

0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:31.840
<v Speaker 10>of this case, is irreputable. I cannot fix it. The

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:34.920
<v Speaker 10>ability to present the best available defense has been destroyed,

0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 10>at least for now, perhaps forever. One must remember that

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:46.600
<v Speaker 10>missus Vrain is not an incidental witness. In retrospect, it

0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:48.920
<v Speaker 10>was too much to expect this young woman to ignore

0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.680
<v Speaker 10>not only her mother's testimony, but all of the commentaries

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.520
<v Speaker 10>in her words and I quote, I have spent my

0:29:55.720 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 10>entire life waiting to hear this testimony. How many of

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 10>us understand circumstances could have resisted this temptation. The defendant's

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:10.720
<v Speaker 10>motion for mistrial is granted. Well, the prejudice attaches will

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.760
<v Speaker 10>be the subject of further discussion with counsel. It is

0:30:13.800 --> 0:30:16.680
<v Speaker 10>my hope that Miss rain will receive some comfort from

0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:20.600
<v Speaker 10>knowing that she caused this case to be reopened, that

0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:24.280
<v Speaker 10>the cabcatty responded in extraordinary fashion, and that it has

0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 10>been established in the court of law acknowledged by all

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:29.320
<v Speaker 10>that she did not cause her brother's death.

0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:35.080
<v Speaker 1>It was a devastating blow. Tracy Raquel had waited decades

0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:38.360
<v Speaker 1>to get justice from Matthew, and it was over.

0:30:40.640 --> 0:30:45.160
<v Speaker 8>It was a carefully worded statement letting Tracy know that

0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:48.000
<v Speaker 8>he didn't fault her, and he took some blame about

0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:52.960
<v Speaker 8>the cameras, but that despite her valiant efforts, this may

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:57.280
<v Speaker 8>be the end. And then we went back to the office,

0:30:57.880 --> 0:30:59.160
<v Speaker 8>tail between our legs.

0:30:59.560 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 1>As for Tracy Riquel, she already knew she hadn't killed Matthew.

0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:06.480
<v Speaker 1>She wasn't there for that. She was there to bring

0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 1>a child's killer to justice. Judge Fuller's words didn't make

0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:13.920
<v Speaker 1>a difference. You must have had so many feelings at

0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:14.880
<v Speaker 1>this point.

0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:17.840
<v Speaker 6>I think I was just in shock of course, there's

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:22.000
<v Speaker 6>all of these things. It's humiliation, it's anger, it's what

0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:23.240
<v Speaker 6>just happened.

0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Nobody was enjoying this moment more than her father. And

0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 1>somehow Jan Barry Sandlin managed to get a hold of

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:32.800
<v Speaker 1>Tracy Riquel's phone number.

0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:36.080
<v Speaker 6>I went home and the very next evening got a

0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 6>call from Jan, which is not supposed to happen.

0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>It was ominous. She could hear something faint in the background.

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 6>It was a talk show or something that was playing,

0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:49.800
<v Speaker 6>and that's all you could hear. And it was describing

0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 6>a lawnmower that had run over this little girl's legs.

0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 6>And that was the first indirect threat to my children.

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Did he say anything?

0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:05.160
<v Speaker 6>He was laughing and said, see, I told you Ed,

0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 6>I'll win the war. He may have won a battle,

0:32:08.360 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 6>but I'm the one who's going to win the war.

0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Next time. On Burden of Guilt.

0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:18.360
<v Speaker 8>Last time I checked, there's no such thing as a

0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:21.200
<v Speaker 8>one free murder rule in Georgia. Let's crank it up,

0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:24.040
<v Speaker 8>game one trial to Let's go.

0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Stay tuned for Burden of Guilt at documentary coming in

0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:36.880
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four and airing only on Paramount Plus. If

0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:38.760
<v Speaker 1>you would like to reach out to the Burden of

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Guilt team. Email us at burdenoguiltpod at gmail dot com.

0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:48.960
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