1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: give them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: or god forbid, a toy gun that's just gonna end 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: up in the garage. Give them something that matters, and 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: what matters the most is protecting their child. What do 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: you love most in the world your children? What will 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: you do to protect them anything. I sat down with 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: the smartest people I know in the world on matters 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crime stops here dot 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: com for a five part series with action information that 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: you can use to change your life and protect your child. 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Payments starting six. Give that as a gift, not another one, esie. 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Find out how to protect your child when you're out 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: of the mall or the store, or the grocery and 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: the parking lot at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters, 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: in daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: of the week than a plastic toy or God forbid 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to crime stops 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: here dot com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I could 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: have it as clearly shows that he committed suicide, clearly 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: shows that he was depressed, Clearly shows that he was 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: on with shrinking alcohol, clearly shows that he was taking medication. Um, 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: and there's posting that they know about where he was 28 00:01:53,560 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: posting these suicidal doc post you're hearing from. Renowned defends 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: attorney Leo Palazzo, claiming that Sergeant Troy Smith committed suicide. 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: Why would a young sergeant kill himself? What's the truth 31 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: behind the shooting death of Sergeant Troy Smith. I'm not convinced. 32 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you 33 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: for being with us. Let's take a listen to what 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: we can learn from a hysterical nine one one call 35 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: my husband just sid hself an ahead twelve common lane 36 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: camelulate A Wagman. He's the police officer, Sir Wagman. Yes, 37 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: give me somebody now, Okay, hold on, man, I'm gonna 38 00:02:47,040 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: saying them on now, ma'am, ma'am. Okay man. I need 39 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: you to go up to him. I need you to 40 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: tell me if I need to tell me if he's 41 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: still breathing. He's breathing fairly, preze and sorry, fleeting everywhere. Okay, 42 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: is he conscious? Is he able to say anything? No, 43 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: Sirry you stop itself in the head. Okay, all right, man, 44 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stand along with you for mom along. I'm 45 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: gonna stand along with you for bid. Man. We need 46 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: you to tell me what your name is. My name 47 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: is Shante Shantel. Yes, and he's a police officeers, Sir, 48 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: he's a police officer. Yeah, his name is choice Mess, 49 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: she said, j you are hearing part of a night 50 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: moment call that we have obtained by Troy's wife. That's 51 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: Chantel Wagner, who comes in to find her husband's shot 52 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: dead in the head. Joining me, talk show host Dave Mac, 53 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: Atlanta juvenile judge, lawyer and founder of child crime watch 54 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: dot Com. Ashley Wilcot, veteran forensic psychiatrist Dr Daniel Bober 55 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: and also joining me, Professor Forensics Suggestionle State University, author 56 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan 57 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: to Dave Mac, talk show host Dave, I want to 58 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: get some of the facts surrounding his shooting death. UM 59 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: cops go in. They find one of their own, Sergeant 60 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: Troy Smith, dad from a gunshot wound. Tell me where 61 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: they were, was it at home, what room of the home, 62 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: what time of the day, and is that the wife 63 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: calling in? All right? Well, first of all, that is 64 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: the wife's calling in. Second of all, they found his 65 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: body on the bed in the master bedroom where the 66 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: phone call was made number one, the one you just 67 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: heard that was made at about at night, the night 68 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: of Father's Day, by the way, Okay, hold on, hold on, 69 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: let me take this in. So Father's Day night, almost midnight. 70 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: What you know, I've told a million juries. Nothing good 71 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: happens after midnight. If you're out on the street, if 72 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: you're driving around, get ready, trouble's gonna happen. So it's 73 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: Father's Day night and it's almost midnight. He's in the 74 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: family home, in the master bedroom, on the bed, and 75 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: he's shot in the head. To Ashley Wilcott, juvenhaw judge 76 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: and trial lawyer, Ashley, he's found on Father's Day night. 77 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: Have you noticed it's so often UM suicides and homicides 78 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: occur on holidays, in weekends. I think it's because people 79 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: are off and they're not at work, and they familiarity 80 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: breeds contempt. The more you're around somebody that irritates you, 81 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: the more likely tempers are to flare. I think it's that, 82 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: and I think often on holidays and times off, people 83 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: are drinking or celebrating and doing things that make them 84 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: in a different state of mind. Sometimes no excuse, so 85 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: it happens. So Sergeant Troy Smith allegedly Dave MC talk 86 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: show host was posting quote dark suicidal messages. What were 87 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: some of the messages he was posting. I didn't see 88 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: any Nancy, the ones that that guy was talking about. 89 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: I didn't see any of those postings. All I've heard 90 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: from them when I was looking over everything in this 91 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: on the articles that are available from the police right 92 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: now and in the press, I didn't see anything that 93 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: he actually said. You know, Dave Matt, we have investigated 94 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: this very thoroughly, and contrary to what the lawyer was stating, 95 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find any such postings. As 96 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, all of his friends, Troy Smiths 97 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: were in disbelief in a long time friend of former 98 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: classmate there at Saint Augustine High School in New Orleans 99 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: said None of this sat right with his friends, and 100 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: they were all skeptics regarding a suicide because he had 101 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: everything before him, He had everything to live for. Two 102 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. Dr Bober. On the other hand, 103 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: I recall a very very dear friend of mine committed 104 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: suicide and he had everything to live for. He was 105 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: a health nut as a matter of fact, Dr Bober, 106 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,239 Speaker 1: his name is Bob c Feld, was Bob c Feld, 107 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: and I forgot exactly how oh hell he's in the 108 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: cable industry, and I met him when I was working 109 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: at Court TV in Manhattan. He was such a health 110 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: nut that instead of eating the snacks on a plane, 111 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: he would bring a bag of organic of course, let 112 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: us that he had personally washed every leaf and he 113 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: would sit there like we would eat peanuts or popcorn 114 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: and eat his lettuce on the plane. And no, he 115 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: was not a nut, he was not. In fact, he 116 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: was brilliant. And when I learned he had walked out 117 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: into the San Francisco Bay and never came back, it's 118 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: still shocks me and it makes me grieve. I still 119 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: can't take it in. He would take his own life, 120 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: so just because all of his friends say, oh, Sergeant 121 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: Troy Smith would never commit suicide. We don't know what 122 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: anybody would do. Dr Bober. And see, I can't tell 123 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: you how many times I've had patients sit in front 124 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: of me and tell them that they were telling me 125 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: that they were feeling fine, and then the next day 126 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: they go off and jump off the top of a 127 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: parking garage. So the bottom line is with people, you 128 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: only see what they want to show you and if 129 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: there hell bent on keeping things from you. You know, 130 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: there are so many people in the world that are 131 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: suffering in quiet desperation and they just we don't know 132 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: what they're really struggling with or what they're going through, 133 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: and they're only going to show you as much as 134 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: they want to show you. So it's not always a 135 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: trail of breadcrumbs like social media postings or you know, 136 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: things they tell their spouse. Sometimes there's no warning at 137 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: all and it just happens because they didn't want anyone 138 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: to know. You know, while I've got Ashley Wilco, a 139 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: juvenile judge, and Dr Daniel Bober, physics psychiatrist. Dr Daniel Bober, 140 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: what does a suicide due to the children. I know, 141 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm sprinkling a lot of personal antidotes into this. But 142 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: I remember two girls that were absolutely precious and smart 143 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: and and wonderful mother when I was growing up in 144 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: rural Georgia committed suicide. And it was one of those 145 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: things like, uh, where I came from, people go what happened? 146 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: And somebody would say, oh, she committed suicide. You didn't 147 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: even say it out loud. And actually the whole community 148 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: knew her very well because there was a really great 149 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: Collin show in the mornings on w m a Z 150 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: and the host slogan was Ko Ko keep on keeping 151 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: on and she would call in all the time and 152 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: tell funny stories and ask questions and so so a 153 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: lot of people felt that they knew her, and she 154 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: committed suicide. I think one of the girls actually found 155 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: her body, and I can't recall that part, but we 156 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: were all I had never heard of that growing up, 157 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: that somebody would kill themselves. Dr Bober, What does that 158 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: do to the children when someone commits suicide. Well, of course, 159 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, there's the immediate shock of it, and then 160 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, the children are reflected for the rest of 161 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: their life. All those not just all the special occasions 162 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: like you know, high school graduations and weddings that you 163 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: know the parent won't be there for. But just the daily, 164 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: everyday grind of life, you know, with with a parent 165 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: who's absent, uh, the child is never the same. I 166 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: mean very often there are other caregivers that can sort 167 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: of try to help fill in the gap. But you know, Nancy, 168 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: you said something very interesting about whispering that it was suicide. 169 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: And I can't tell you how many funerals I've been 170 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: to where there's been suicides and the the the people 171 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: of the family will not mention that it was a 172 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: suicide because I think in our society there's still else 173 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: it's a social stigma against mental illness and suicide that 174 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: people feel ashamed of it. And I think that's part 175 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: of the reason that people are afraid to, you know, 176 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: seek help, is because of that, the fear of that 177 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: stigma and being judged. Ashley Willcott, in addition to what 178 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: Dr Bober said, which of course is absolutely correct, what 179 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: about the feeling of guilt like mommy or Daddy did 180 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: that because of me. It's my fault because I didn't 181 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: pick up my clothes, because I talked bat because whatever, 182 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: that's what I see on the bench, Nancy is when 183 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: kids experienced the suicide of a caretaker or a parent, 184 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: they always come back to what did I do wrong? 185 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: What could I have done differently? It's my fault. I'm 186 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: so sorry. That's absolutely what they think in their minds. Well, 187 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: apparently even the wife refused to accept that it was 188 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: a suicide. Listen to what she was saying at the funeral. 189 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: This is Fox eight's Natasha Robin. Smith and Wagner married 190 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and sixteen, and both had children from 191 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: previous marriages. Neighbors described them as happy, but the two 192 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: were facing financial troubles. Smith and Wagner filed Chapter thirteen 193 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: bankruptcy on June one, listing more than two hundred and 194 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: ninety one thousand dollars in debt. A neighbor told Fox 195 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: Sat she attended the funeral. She says at the funeral, 196 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: Wagner approached her and told her that Sergeant Troy Smith 197 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide. She said it was an accident. Well, 198 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: she he did. From my understanding, he did shoot himself, 199 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: and she doesn't know if it was actually supposed to 200 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: be suicide, our accident because when he pulled the gun 201 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: up the gun went off. My husband just sun uping 202 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: ahead twelve common lane camereu lane. A wagman. He's the 203 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: police officers are wagonman? Yes, give me somebody now, Okay, 204 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: hold on, man, I'm gonna saying them on now, ma'am, ma'am. Okay, man, 205 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: I need you to go up to him. I need 206 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: you to tell me if I need to tell me 207 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: if he's still breathing. He's breathing barely, prez and sorry, 208 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: fleeting everywhere. Okay? Is he conscious? Is he able to 209 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: say anything? No, sirry you stop yourself in the head. Okay, 210 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: all right, man, I'm gonna stand along with you for 211 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: mom along. I'm gonna stand along with you for a bit. Man. 212 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: We need you to tell me what your name is. 213 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: My name is Shante Shantel. Yes, and he's a police officers, Sir, 214 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: he's a police officer. Yeah, it's his name is choice 215 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: mess he said, Okay, Uh, that's disturbing me in a 216 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: way with me? Is Dave Max, syndicated talk show host, 217 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer, founder child crime watch dot com. 218 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrist, and Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics 219 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: expert author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Ashley, 220 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: did you hear the hysterical crying? Now? I'm okay with that. 221 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm okay with hysterics, because you know, when I have 222 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: been faced with life and death, I feel hysterical on 223 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: the inside. I get really quiet, no tears, no yelling, 224 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: no nothing like that. But I feel hysterical on the 225 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: inside when faced with life or death. Um, she let 226 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: it out. But what's bothering me is when he said, 227 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: what's your name? She goes chantel. He's a police officer. 228 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: Suddenly everything is cleared up. The crying, the hysterics. It 229 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: reminds me a tiny bit. Do you remember the black 230 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: widow in Florida? The former escore that what what was 231 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: her name? Alan Duke and Royce Layton Actually, oh my good, Dippolito. 232 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: How could I forget that name? And they act she 233 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: tried to kill her husband with poison, allegedly and hy ty, 234 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: and then that didn't work, and so she ordered a 235 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: hit man. Of course, the hit man was an undercover agent, 236 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: so they set up this elaborate sting and when they 237 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: quote told her about her husband's quote death quote, e. 238 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: She like breaks down, bends over, double screaming the whole 239 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: time she had set up the hit. Okay, now, I'm 240 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: not saying this woman is guilty or innocent, but she 241 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: has the hysterics and then turns on a dime and 242 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: it's totally calm. What's that, Ashley? You know, Nancy, I 243 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: don't know, And I have to say this. We know 244 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: there are lots of people out there who commit crimes, 245 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: who act hysterical at the time of only to find 246 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: that they actually committed the crime. The other piece of 247 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: that that's weird to me. It's not only did she 248 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden get calm. Do you know she 249 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: kind of dropped the fact he was law enforcement down 250 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: the road. Like, to me, that's one of the first 251 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: things you say, say, oh my god, he's an officer, 252 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: because I hate to say it, but they're going to 253 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: respond quickly and differently, I think potentially, but oh my god, 254 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: he's a police officer and we have you know, he 255 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: shot himself in the head and I need an ambulance. 256 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: They're just things she didn't say that make me, um 257 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable with her demeanor on that call. Ashley 258 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: Willcott did you just say, oh MG, did I say what? 259 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: O MG? No? Oh I did I apologize? Actually, do 260 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: not drag him slash her into this drama? Okay? Dr 261 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Daniel Bobert Ashley Willcott's profanity aside. Uh Dr bober what 262 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: is that? Is that normal? Because before she may have 263 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: been just reacting to the fact her husband's shot in 264 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: the head and then she straightens up to give pertinent 265 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: information or does it strike you as unusual? I agree 266 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: with Ashley. I mean it seemed like, you know, when 267 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: people are under that level of stress and their response 268 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: is fairly unrestrained and they seeming consolable as it just 269 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: sort of snap out of it and you know, go 270 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: into this just the facts man mode. It definitely would 271 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: raise a red flag. But you know, people grieve differently, 272 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: people deal with stress differently, so you can't say, but 273 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: it certainly raises a red flag. Have you ever considered 274 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: a feature in defense? Mark? Let's take a listen to 275 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: more of that. Noi'm only calls see what we can 276 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: figure out. Man, Is there anyone in the else No house? Now, 277 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: I've already sent the police had a while ago there 278 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: on their way, Okay, ma'am. And if he's still breathing. 279 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: Yea is Yeah, I was his breathing, ma'am. Okay, but 280 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: how is his breathing? Is it heavy? Labored? Low, shallow heavy, 281 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: a labor. You're hearing more of the nine one call 282 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: and the crying has started up again. To Joe Scott Morgan, 283 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, 284 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I have to agree with Dr Bober. Okay, Um, 285 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: you never know how someone's going to react in a 286 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: situation like this. You've been on a lot of death sayings, 287 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, she's trying again. I can't say that the 288 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: first portion of the ninmal one call we played really 289 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: proved anything to me. And believe me, I'm looking, but 290 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: that first let me just say, aberration. That didn't prove 291 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: anything to me. What odd behavior have you ever witnessed 292 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: at death scenes? Uh, you name it. I've seen people, 293 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, uh, clutching bodies, rolling around with them, doing 294 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: everything if they can just get access to them. And 295 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: a lot of this is driven, uh, driven by grief. Uh. 296 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: This kind of primal response that people will have to 297 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: this sudden realization that there's loss and this horror that 298 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: is overcoming them. Uh and uh. But I have also 299 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: been on scenes where you'll have these individuals that will 300 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: vacillate between these extreme emotional reactions where you'll have them 301 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: screaming and they're incoherent and this word of thing, and 302 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, they've become very, very placid, 303 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: and they seem like they're lucid. It's really hard to 304 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: judge motive fan those sorts of things in that particular moment. 305 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: You have to kind of let the death settle after 306 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: a while. Do you know another parent or expecting parent. 307 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift. 308 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: Don't give them another one sie, don't give them a 309 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: plastic toy or god forbid a toy gun that's just 310 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: gonna end up in the garage. Give them something that matters. 311 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: And what matters the most is protecting their child. What 312 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: do you love most in the world, Your children? What 313 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: will you do to protect them anything. I sat down 314 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: with the smartest people I know in the world on 315 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: matters of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 316 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 317 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 318 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crime stops here dot 319 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: com for a five part series is with action information 320 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: that you can use to change your life and protect 321 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: your child. Payments starting six. Give that as a gift, 322 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: not another one ze. Find out how to protect your 323 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: child when you're out of the mall or the store, 324 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: or the grocery and the parking lot at home. Find 325 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: out about protection regarding babysitters, in daycare, even online. I'd 326 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: rather have that any day of the week than a 327 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: plastic toy. Our God forbid a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. 328 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: Go to crime stops here dot com Crime Stories with 329 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm Ramsey, i'n't want to call you. Thank 330 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: you for comment. I'm sorry to call you. Listen. We 331 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: had a report of a disturbance at your house and 332 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: there were shots fired as your husband, Michael, Okay, I'm 333 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: sorry to tell you man, he's been killed. He's been killed. Man. 334 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Right now, we need to we need to can't you 335 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: want to find at killer? Okay? We need you to 336 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,479 Speaker 1: comb up. I need you to go. Okay, you have enemies. 337 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: Is there anyone that would want to hurt Okay, who 338 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: want to hurt him? Said he saw a blackmail running 339 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: from you. I can't stand them, dam I cannot do 340 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: this right now. Need I need you to stay for 341 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: the station. Don't get too upset just yet. That's Dahlia 342 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: di Polito and number one, her husband's not dead. At 343 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: number two, she hired a hitman to kill him. That 344 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: happened to be an undercover agent. Al right, so don't 345 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: be too upset when you hear the hysterical screaming. Now 346 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not saying that this wife, Shuntel Wagner, is 347 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: guilty or innocent, but take listen to the rest of 348 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: her nine one one Collin man, what's that noise? Is 349 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: that him? Is that him? Guessing? Yeah? Ing, sir, oh yeah, 350 00:23:52,160 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: h wow. That sounds amazingly like Dahlia di Polito. Still 351 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: not making a comparison. Let's talk about the actual injuries. 352 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: Now we know that he was found dead from apparently 353 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wound to the hid in his bed, 354 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: found by his wife, Shantell Wagner. You're listening to her 355 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: make the name on one call. That's a heck of 356 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: a dispatch officer, and usually I do not have kind 357 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: words for them, but he actually identified in the background 358 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: that he could hear Sergeant Troy Smith that deceased breathing 359 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: his last breath, very labored breathing as the wife sat 360 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: by and cried to death. Investigator Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, 361 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Joe Scott, let's talk about 362 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: the injuries themselves. The fatal wound, what do you know? 363 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: This is what I do know, Nancy. Uh. The gunshot 364 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: wound that that this officer sustained is slightly above into 365 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: the rear of the ear. Okay Uh. And what happens 366 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: is is that this round apparently has traversed from that 367 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: location forward uh in the head. Uh. And according to 368 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: what the corner is now saying, uh, it appears that 369 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: this round was fired at some distance. Now, I think 370 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: the way that they've probably determined this when they get 371 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: the body back to the more, they will have cleaned 372 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: off this area and they can appreciate the disbursement of gunpowder. 373 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: Are unburned gunpowder on the surface of the skin, and 374 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: you're not gonna get let's say, for instance, this is 375 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: a tight press gunshot wound, You're not going to have 376 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: a disposition of zoot soot everywhere. It will be literally 377 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: injected into the head, and that's commonly what you see 378 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: with suicides. This is highly regular, it is and what 379 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: we would refer to as an atypical gunshot one for suicide. 380 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: You know what. It's also confusing the fact is that 381 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: there was an amended autopsy report indicating the whole in 382 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: the top of smith skull, originally thought to be the 383 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: exit wound, was in fact made by surgeons operating on 384 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: him before he died. Now, the amended autopsy reports as 385 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: the exit wound is the same as the entrance wound 386 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: on the right side of Smith's head toward the front. 387 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: It's a tan, gentle or superficial wound that was incorporated 388 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: into the craniotomy incision um that was subsequently sutured and 389 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: sewn up and stapled as well. Now that's going to 390 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: add confusion that there was a second autopsy report and 391 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: that the surgery on the top of his head was 392 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: confused to be the entry wound or the exit wound 393 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: of the original gunfire. I know, talking in legal talk 394 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: and medical talk. The coroner's report notes that although it's 395 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: findings as to the wound are amended, the office still 396 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: cannot say whether the death was homicide or suicide because 397 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: the range of fire is unknown. The range of fire 398 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: is unknown. What does that mean, Joe Scott. Well, if 399 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: you've got range of fire that is unknown, what that 400 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: means is that there is literally no sit deposition, which 401 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: means that the individual would have been outside of the 402 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: range of potentially eighteen inches away when firing this thing. 403 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: So hold on, let me break that down. Jo Scott 404 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: is talking in very technical talk. When there is no 405 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: range of fire, that means you don't know how far 406 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: away the gun was. That's what that means. If a 407 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: gun is within thirty six inches three ft of the 408 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: body when fired, you will typically almost always get g 409 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: SR gunshot residue. They cause you can't see what the 410 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: naked eye when a bullet is fired. Gunshot powder as 411 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: fine as baby powder, goes everywhere. You can see it 412 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: under a microscope really well, and it leaves residues easily 413 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: washed off your hands or if you even move or 414 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: brush up against the bed shakes, it can be removed. 415 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: But there was none. That's we know that, Joe Scott, 416 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: because it says the range of fires unknown, so it 417 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: was not within three feet. Would you agree with that, Yeah, 418 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: I would. And can I just add one more thing, Nancy, 419 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: When when when you're doing surgery on someone that has 420 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: sustained this kind of injury, keep in mind the surgeons 421 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,959 Speaker 1: are not interested in forensic evidence. They would have shaved 422 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: his head significantly. And the fact that they used that 423 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: point of entry as an entry area into this craniotomy 424 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: they performed is not uncommon. You actually see it in 425 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: chess wounds where people have been shot in the chest, 426 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: so use that point to literally open up the chest. 427 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon to have this in the head. Uh. 428 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: And if there was gunshot wound gunshot residue, then the 429 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: shaved hair would have been removed, washed away. They'll also 430 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: have cleaned the skin. They may have washed it down 431 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: with batha and break that down place. I think what 432 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: you're saying is he wasn't dead yet, so they tried 433 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: to save his life by operating on his head. And 434 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: if they had, they would have washed his hair and 435 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: shaved his scout. That would have gotten rid of all 436 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: gunshot residue if he had held the gun up to 437 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: his own head. Yes, no, Joe Scott, Yes, yes, you're 438 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: Here's my other question what about his hand. If you 439 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: pull the trigger, you've got gunshot residue on your hand. 440 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: Here's the problem everything. He was moved to the hospital, 441 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: he was raised to the hospital. That being put on 442 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: a guarney, being bundled up, having blankets put on you 443 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: taken off, you can remove gunshot residue. It's just like 444 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: baby powder. Well, one person is convinced, regardless of the 445 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: confusion in the autopsy report, that this is a suicide, 446 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: that Sergeant Troy Smith did kill himself. His mother in law. 447 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: Here's his mother in law speaking to Fox eight reporter 448 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: Natasha Robin. I just wish everyone would stop jumping to conclusions. 449 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: Tevin Welcher should tell Wagner's mother they were both good people. 450 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: Nobody's talking bad about Troy. We loved Troy. They were 451 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: both good people. They both have children, and I mean, 452 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: this is affecting all of the kids. The incident that 453 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: led to Smith's death was first reported as an attempted suicide. 454 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: Investigators were called to the couple's home and Wagonman on 455 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: June seventeenth, Father's Day night. They found Smith in a 456 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: bedroom with a single gunshot wound to the head. He 457 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: died a week later in the hospital. He's a very uh, 458 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: dedicated and strong willed and strong person all around, So 459 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: it was very it was shocking, um and the most 460 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: of his all of his friends thought the same way. 461 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Smith's friends say Wagner's story of an attempted suicide never 462 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: added up. It was definitely a career police officer and 463 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: and and dedicated. Um, you know, he's in military also. 464 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: He was just that kind of guy, uh and certainly 465 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: not the type that you would you would think it 466 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: would take this route. You're hearing a former coworker saying 467 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: that Sergeant Troy Smith was not the type to be 468 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: depressed and kill himself. Speaking to Fox Site reporter Natasha Robbin, 469 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: how does that factor in for you? Dr Daniel Bober, 470 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist, that no friend thought that he would commit suicide, 471 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: and also that he has this strong police and military 472 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: background known for self discipline. Well, you know, Nancy, it's 473 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: not just positive. I mean, it's certainly you know, one 474 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: factor that goes against suicide. But you know, I have 475 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: to say I've worked with a lot of police officer. 476 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: I'm the psychiatrist for the Broward Sheriff's Office, and I 477 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: see a lot of deputies and the police officers tend 478 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: to actually have a higher suicide rate than the general population. 479 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: You can make the argument whether that's, you know, their 480 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: individual makeup or just the stress of the job. So 481 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: I think it's one factor that rules against suicide, but 482 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: certainly not doesn't prove it one way or the other. 483 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: But now, in a sudden twist, the case takes another 484 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: turn to tell Wagner wasn't dicted for second degree murder. 485 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: That's according to her lawyer, Leo Palazzo, as the d 486 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: a year in Jefferson Parish alleges that she shot and 487 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: killed her husband, jps OH Sergeant Troy Smith, and then 488 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: tried to cover it up. Now Wagner was arrested. She 489 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: has not been able to make bond. If you were 490 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: hearing from w DSc reporter Traver's Maco reporting the Wye 491 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: Shante Wagner has now been taken into custody. Straight out 492 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: to Dave mac talk show host, what happened? What changed 493 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: to make them arrest his wife? Well, what led them 494 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: to arrest his wife was that they actually the forensically 495 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: determined that the gunshot came from the back of his 496 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: head and that the gun was two to three feet away. 497 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: That's what ultimately was what we're reading and what we're 498 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: seeing from the police. It was all forensically. It took 499 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: some time, but they knew right away. You don't get 500 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head when you're shooting yourself. 501 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to make wide a suicide by 502 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: any stretch of the imagination. But you know, going back 503 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: to that nine one one called Nancy, did you notice 504 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: how when she was talking to the nine one one operator, 505 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: she was getting that sir, sir, that kind of calm 506 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: thing that people do when they're guilty of something but 507 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: they're trying to act right with somebody they see as 508 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: a law enforcement official. It happens on if you ever 509 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: watch interactions with police officers and criminals, they'll always say, sir, sir, 510 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: I didn't do anything, sir, I'm innocent, and it's like, 511 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: that's what she was doing on that nine one one call. 512 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: It caught my attention and it scares the crap out 513 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: of me because she was such a good actress. Well, 514 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: let's take a listen to that, especially the initial part 515 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: of the nine o one call. Listen, Well, my husband 516 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: just start herself in Ahead twelve. Communion Lane, Communu Lane, 517 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: A wagman. He's the police officers are commedia Lane and wagonman. Yes, 518 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: give me somebody else. Okay, hold on, man, I'm gonna 519 00:33:44,160 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: shame them on now, ma'am, ma'am. Okay, man, I need 520 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: you to go up to him. I need you to 521 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: tell me if I need to tell me if he's 522 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: still breathing, he's sorry, cleaning everywhere? Okay? Is he conscious? 523 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: Is he able to say anything? No, Sirry you started 524 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: up in the head. Okay, all right, man, I'm gonna 525 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: stand along with you for mom along. I'm gonna stand 526 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: along with you for a bit. Man. We need you 527 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: to tell me what your name is? No, Na, Miss 528 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: Santell Chantel. Yes, and he's a police officers there, he's 529 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: a police officer. Yeah, it's his man's choice. Mess she said, 530 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: j P. There you are hearing exactly what Dave mac 531 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: talks to your host is talking about. I want to 532 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: talk about that and the forensics to Dr Daniel Boberge. 533 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: What do you make of Dave Dave Max observation. I mean, 534 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: you know it. Listen, there's not I don't think there's 535 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: been a scientific study that would support that, but you know, 536 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: people behave differently under different situations, and I don't there's 537 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: very few you know, a lot of people talk about this. 538 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: You know, you can tell by someone's blink rate there 539 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: if they're lying, And there's really never been a reliable 540 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: test that shows that someone's being deceiving. And there are 541 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: certainly signs, but there's nothing that proves it definitively, which 542 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: is also why polygraphs aren't inmissible in court. So it's 543 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: just very difficult to know for sure. To Joseph's got 544 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: Morgan death investigator, I want to talk about the forensics. 545 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: The wound. Yes, as you accurately pointed out, all potential 546 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: gunshot residue was removed when the hospital surgeons were trying 547 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: to save his life. But what about the wound itself, Well, 548 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: the wound itself, Nancy would whist to it, and there's 549 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: not gonna be a lot of disruption, there's not any 550 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: gas passing through, it's not gonna be blown apart, and 551 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: it's going to give a very fixed position as to 552 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: where the individual was oriented that fired the weapon into 553 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: this man's head. Apparently the individual was certainly above them, 554 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: uh to the rear of them and and fired downward 555 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: at this Indiley didn't kill him initially because we could 556 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: hear those agonal respirations, which means that the primal brain 557 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: wasn't clipped at that point in time. It just kind 558 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: of passes through. You had mentioned this tangential gunshot wound. 559 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: It passes through almost peripherally. So's she's he's bleeding out 560 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: and you can hear her saying he's bleeding out. He's 561 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 1: bleeding nowt he's probably bleeding from the nose, the mouth, 562 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: maybe the wound itself, but the primal brain at the 563 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: very base is keeping his heart going, is keeping the 564 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: respirations going, and so they're just trying to save his life. 565 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: But this is an unrecoverable injury that he sustained to 566 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: actually Will caught judge, lawyer, founder child crime watch dot com. 567 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 1: They were nearly three hundred thousand dollars in debt, both 568 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: had filed both respectively had filed for bankruptcy. Would that 569 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: be motive for either homicide or suicide? So homicide or suicide, 570 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: the problem is, let's say they had a life insurance policy, 571 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: for instance, whether it's suicide or homicide, if she's in 572 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: fact convicted of that, then in fact, it's not going 573 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,959 Speaker 1: to be a financial gain to have that policy because 574 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: it's not going to be paid out. So, you know, 575 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: is it a if? It's always a motive. Money sets 576 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: drugs always the motives for people to do these things. 577 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: But I don't see how there'd be a financial gain 578 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: from her killing him if she's convicted of that. Here's 579 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: another issue, Um, we learned recently that none of the 580 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: wives DNA was found on the weapon. We've heard that 581 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: and support of a suicide claim. We've also heard that 582 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: based on a recreation, the bullet hole was found. A 583 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,959 Speaker 1: bullet hole was found in the wall at the home. 584 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: We don't know if it was made the same day 585 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: as the shooting. What more do we know? To Dave Max, 586 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host Nancy, what we know is only 587 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: what is being reported, and they're being kind of closed 588 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: lift over a number of different things about the whether 589 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: there's DNA on the gun or what have you. I 590 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: go back to the real charge was aft. They investigated this, 591 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: and they came back and they said it was based 592 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: on borensic evidence from the gunshot wound, and you got 593 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: it back on blood spatter too. She could have washed 594 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: her hands, she could have stopped the gun, and she 595 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: could have done any number of things to cover this up. 596 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: She also she's not an idiot. She's been married to 597 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: him for a few years. And by the way, I 598 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: want to go back to one thing you were talking 599 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: about with bankruptcy, just so you know, when people get 600 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: a Chapter thirteen, they don't lose anything. That's just a 601 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: reorganization so that they can make all their payments into 602 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: a lower lump sum, and it actually gives them some 603 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: breathing room. So somebody who was stressed out on financial 604 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: issues actually gets a rebirth under Chapter thirteen. That wouldn't 605 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: be a reason to go and take a gun to 606 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: your head. It actually would be a reason to go 607 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: out and have dinner because you would have a little 608 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: extra money to do that. Good point. Right now, we 609 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. We know that the wife, Chantel 610 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: Wagner has had her bail lowered and has now been 611 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: reset at three hundred thousand dollars. That's lower than the 612 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand that was typically set for that kind 613 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: of case. That means she's got to come up with 614 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars cash or Collateral Nancy Grace Crime Stories, 615 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye, friend one,