1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: P I Magazine is the most respected magazine of the 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: professional investigator, featuring stories and articles on current topics, equipment reviews, 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: investigative tips, and practical advice for the professional investigator. Don't 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: miss a single issue of PI Magazine. Subscribe today at 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: PI magazine dot com. Use this show's promotional code for 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: your special discount at PI magazine dot com. Subscribe today, 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. A gorgeous girl comes to 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: the US with her family from Burma to seek a 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: better life, and they work like dogs to provide their 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: children a better a different life and education. So how 13 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: did this beautiful girl, Rebecca's the Hall end up dead? 14 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: Hanging naked, her hands bound behind her in an intricate knot, 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: a hood over her head, well, a sweatshirt over her head, 16 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: around her face, her mouth gagged, hanging outside naked off 17 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: of balcony. That doesn't sound like an accident to me, 18 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: But when you throw in millions and millions of dollars 19 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: and influential families involved, everything seems to go sideways right, 20 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I see, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 21 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: you for being with us, with me an incredible lineup. 22 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Keith Greer, the lawyer for that girl Rebecca's the Halls Family, 23 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer, and with me world renowned forensic 24 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: pathologists Cyril Wecht, who worked diligently for Rebecca's, a Hawes family, 25 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: high profile lawyer and Bremner Forensics expert. Professor of Forensics. 26 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Dr Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist and author of Lions, 27 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: Tigers and Terrorists, Ohmi, How to Protect Your Child and 28 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Investigative reporter Nanette Sosa you probably already figured 29 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: out by now. I'm talking about the beautiful young girl, 30 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Rebecca's the Hall dead at the mansion of a millionaire 31 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: Jonah shack Night. Now to bizarre deaths, shaking this wealthy, 32 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: wealthy southern California community and sending armchair sleuth into a frenzy. 33 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: I just don't understand how the case was ruled accidental 34 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: by Sheriff's Let's start at the beginning of the story. 35 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't really start with the suicide, the alleged suicide. 36 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: Rebecca's a how it starts with the death of a 37 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: little boy named Max. Straight out to the family lawyer 38 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: Keith Greer, how does a story about a woman hanging 39 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: naked outside off the balcony start with the death of 40 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: a six year old boy? At that point in time, 41 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: it was back in two thousand and eleven. Rebecca had 42 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: been dating Jonah shack Night, the millionaire, and he had 43 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: through primary just on six year old Max. Cute kid. 44 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of videotape of him. Talked to 45 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: his mom Nina to Joan about him. From all accounts, 46 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: really a bright, energetic child. Um, that morning, he's precious. 47 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: Do you have any children? Do you have children, Keith? 48 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: I meant that age at six, they're they're beautiful. They're 49 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: still like little angels is before they really learned to 50 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: talk back effectively. Go ahead, very curious, very bright, very personable, 51 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: handsome young man. And uh, but that morning, this is 52 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: now two days before Rebecca's murder. Early in the morning, 53 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: Jonas says he's at the gym working out. Now, wait 54 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: a minute, Jonah shot and I is like, um a 55 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: software uh multi millionaire right is involved with computers. Medicis 56 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: was his company at the time. Medicis the pharmacist company 57 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: that uses makes wrestling, you know, for injecting and faces 58 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: and injectables. He made his money off getting rid of 59 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: wrinkles with rustalling and something to do with acne medications, 60 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: right like cosmoceuticals, you know, so to speaking it at 61 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: this time. So he us the multi millionaire and Rebecca's 62 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: the hall, you know, fresh off the boat from Burnham 63 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: with her family now in her you know, she's in 64 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: the late twenties, early thirty. She meets Jonah shackn I, 65 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: the millionaire, and they start dating. That morning, he goes 66 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: to the gym. She's alone taking care of Max and 67 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: her own little sisters in the home. Okay, in the mansion. 68 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: It's huge go ahead, yes, so yes, so, and like 69 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned, Rebecca's sisters visiting. Um, they finished breakfast, Rebecca's 70 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: sister goes up to take a shower. Rebecca's taking care 71 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: of household chores and here's this huge crash, and then 72 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: comes into the foyer to find Max lying on the 73 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 1: ground unconscious. Um, the chandelier from the foyer falling down 74 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: onto the floor. Also he's not breathing, and so she's 75 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: she screams for her sister to come help. She starts 76 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: CPR as her sister call nine one one UM. They 77 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: show up very quickly but aren't able to resuscitate act 78 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: at that time. So what let me understand exactly? Uh 79 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: with me? Nanette? So so Crimes Toys investigative reporter Nanette. 80 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: Six year old Max is there with the dad's girlfriend, Rebecca, 81 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 1: one of the women. Her little sister is doing chores. 82 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: Once taking a shower, they hear a bang. Max apparently 83 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: has been playing with either a ball or the new 84 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: puppy and somehow goes zooming over the second floor balcony 85 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: of the staircase I guess, grabs at the chandelier and 86 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: falls really to his death. He never comes back to 87 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: He falls face down onto the fourier floor and the 88 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: chandelier falls to Ninette, Yes, that that's exactly what happened. 89 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: He was up on the second floor. They believe he 90 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: was running possibly trip flips over this balcony onto the 91 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: chandelier and comes crashing down again. The dad was at 92 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: the gym. Rebecca is the house at the house along 93 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: with the younger sister, and one of the telling things 94 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: was when it happened. The Rebecca's out was so nervous 95 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: telling her sister. According to court documents that I read 96 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: that Dina is going to kill me. She's just gonna 97 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: kill me because of the accident that happened to Max. Well, 98 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: you're right, Dina is little Max's mom. So nine one 99 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: one is called. They come get the boy. They race 100 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: him to the hospital. The dad is alerted Jonas shack Ny, 101 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: the mom, Dina shack Knight, they're divorced. They all race 102 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: to the children's hospital and start a bedside vigil. Enter 103 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: shack NY's brother. The brother comes from I think it 104 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: was Tennessee, Nashville and Memphis area. He's a tugboat captain. 105 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: As a fiction writer, he lives his own in his 106 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: own world. He travels to California Lands. That night they 107 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: go out to dinner. He's there with Rebecca. She's alive 108 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: and well. They're waiting on news about little mat X 109 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: and then suddenly things take a sideways turn. We find 110 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: out Max is not doing well. He in facts, he's 111 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: taking a turn for the worse, and Adam shackn I 112 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: calls Rebecca or text her and tells her what Keith career. Actually, 113 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: that's where the evidence gets a little fuzzy and changed 114 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: over the years, because earlier that day, this is July twelve, 115 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the test came back regarding Max's condition of his brain, 116 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: and he actually hadn't according to those tests gotten words, 117 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: he had in fact some improvements. He was not out 118 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: of the woods. He had a terrible ball. His injuries 119 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: were we're devastating, but the turn hadn't technically happened yet, 120 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: although Jonah says that he spoke with the treating physician, 121 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: and the treating physician gave Jonah dismal news that caused 122 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: Jonah to think that things were much worse than initially anticipated. 123 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: And Jonah then is that he left a message for 124 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: Rebecca twelve a m that that early morning of July thirteen, 125 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: saying that you know, Max may not ever walk, or 126 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: probably won't walk, probably won't ever talk again, or something 127 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: to that effect. Take a listen to exactly what veteran 128 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: trial lawyer Keith Greer is talking about. Here is Jonas 129 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Shack and I himself. He's on ABC, and he's describing 130 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: a voicemail he says he left for Rebecca's a hall 131 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: that may have made her feel like Max's death was 132 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: all her fault left her a voice message pretty upset. 133 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: All I can think is that Rebecca saw what had happened, 134 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: felt responsible in some way, not that she did anything, 135 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: but that she was entrusted with Max and that that 136 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: was too much to bear. You know, the decision to 137 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: take a life is it's a decision that that is 138 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: int rational, and it's hard to sit here and rationally 139 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: examine what might have gone through someone's head at a 140 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: moment that they lost reason and did something horrible to 141 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: themselves and it turns out horrible to a lot of 142 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: other people. Rebecca is a Hall found hanging dead naked 143 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: outside the balcony of the home after that voicemail from 144 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: Jonah Why what really happened? It was ruled a suicide, 145 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: but Rebecca Zaha's sister Mary insists with Dr Feels she 146 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: does not believe Rebecca killed herself. Listen to Rebecca's sister Mary, 147 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: that your sister committed suicide. You believe that someone killed her. 148 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: She was found hanging from a balcony with her hands 149 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: tied behind her back, her feet tied a T shirt 150 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: or underneck, and in her mouth, in her mouth and 151 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: hung and with very elaborate knots tied around, and you're 152 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: saying that that's not suicide, that didn't happen. So what 153 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: did happen? I think someone or several people held my 154 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: sister responsible for what happened to Max. When Max got 155 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: injured up there are hospital records that said that Max 156 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: might have been suffocated. As a mother or somebody related 157 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: to maths, you can assume, Okay, Rebecca was the caregiver. 158 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: But the sad part is nobody really investigated what really happened. 159 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody knows who was in the house that 160 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: was Mary, Rebecca's sister, insisting Rebecca did not commit suicide. 161 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: And now with me the forensic pathologist world renowned who 162 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: worked for Rebecca's family, Cyril Wet. Dr Cyril Wecht has 163 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: been on many famous cases and became involved in this 164 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: case as well. Cyril is so great to talk to you, 165 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: as usual, Cyril. Uh. When I first heard about the 166 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding Rebecca being hung, you know, she's young, she's beautiful, 167 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: she seemed in fairly good spirits in light of what 168 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: had happened that evening. Her family says, no way would 169 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: she have done this. But that's all well, and good. 170 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: What convinced me at the beginning this was not a 171 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: suicide was the elaborate step she would have had to 172 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: take to do it herself. There, Correct me if I'm wrong, Cyril, 173 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: and then you explain it better than me. But I'll 174 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: I almost tell it in regular people talk, Cyril. She 175 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: tied somebody tied a rope to the foot of her bed, 176 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: of a bed a guest room bid a rope to 177 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: the bed, Carry the rope out to the balcony. All right. 178 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: So she had this intricate set of knots like crazy 179 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: sailor type knots that are hard to tie. With her 180 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: hands behind her back, her feet were bound to She 181 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: had her somehow with her hands tied behind her back, 182 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: gagged herself. I guess she could have done that before, 183 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: with something in her mouth. She had a T shirt 184 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: wrapped partially across her face. She then completely naked, which 185 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: statistically never happens. Women never commit suicide naked ever. I 186 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: don't know why they just don't. She hobbles out, jumps 187 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: out to the balcony, gagged bound hands and feet, hands 188 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: behind her, with a noose around her neck, somehow throws 189 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: herself over the balcony to be found hanging naked by 190 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: her loved ones. That's the lay person's explanation. Cyril wecked, 191 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: why was this not suicide? Well, Nancy, you've outlined that 192 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: very clearly. And the bindings around her ankles was so 193 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: tight that there were actually some superficial contusions of the 194 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: calf muscles. So right there, Cyril, when you talk about Cyril, 195 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: you said the word contusion. I just you're talking to me, Cyril. 196 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm just a j D. You're the m D. What's 197 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: the contusion of bruise? I know you're you're you're you're 198 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: you're sharp. I know, I listen. Um, the picture of 199 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: the scenario that you have clearly outlined, Nancy is totally 200 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: totally incongruous with a suicide. Um. The bindings were such 201 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: that it would be impossible really to move to maneuver 202 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: herself five ft two inches over a three ft height reeling. 203 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: How do you get up there with your ankles bound 204 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: in that fashion and your wrist and so on. The 205 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: point you make about nudity is right on target. So 206 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: you are a sharp j D to know that that 207 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: women do not commit suicide nude, whether it's ceo, shotgun, starving, hanging, 208 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: or drugs. They do not commit suicide by hanging. Then 209 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: you have a drop of nine ft two inches from 210 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: the balcony. If she hurtled over that in one fell swoop, 211 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: the force would have been tremendous force equaling one half 212 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: mass times velocity squared that body hurtling down. That is 213 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: we're referred to as an execution hanging, where the head 214 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: sometimes is pulled away, decapitation, partial decapitation, and certainly at 215 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: the very least a cervical vertebral fracture or dislocation. What white, 216 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: what white? Hold on? Hold on, hold on. Listening to 217 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: you and Joe Scott Morgan is just like drinking from 218 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: the fire, Hydra. I just can't take it all in 219 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: that fast. Wait a minute, Cyre, hold on, now, hold on, Cyril, 220 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: let me let me gather my thoughts. Okay, hold on. 221 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: I think you said something about if she jumps, she 222 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: commits suicide by jumping off that balcony, and you were 223 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: quoting exact measurements nine ft six I think what you're 224 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: saying in regular people talk is if she had jumped 225 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: off the balcony with a rope around her neck, it 226 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: would have broken her neck. Yeah, at that velocity, you've 227 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: got the the first seven vertebrae coming down from the 228 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: base of your skull, cervical vertebrae, the bottom one seventh 229 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: is the bony protuberance you can feel at the base 230 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: of your neck. And when you have that kind of 231 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: an execution hanging, so to speak, then you have a 232 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: fractured dislocation. Did she have that? No, she did not 233 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: do not only there were no fractures or dislocations. There 234 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: were no hammer. There was no damage at all to 235 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: the posterior neck muscles and soft tissues. So here's my question, 236 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: if I can even articulate it uh correctly, what would 237 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: be the difference if she threw herself over the balcony 238 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: or if someone else threw her over the balcony. Either 239 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: way she would have the neck breaking of those as 240 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: you said, that bony bone at the bottom of your 241 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: neck you can feel back there, the cervical vertebrae would 242 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: have been hemorrahaged or broken. That did not happen. So 243 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: are you saying then that she was killed before she 244 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: was thrown over the balcony? And yes, number one, I 245 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: believe she was dead in the final seconds of of 246 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: of death number one and number two. I don't think 247 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: that she was hurled over. I think that the rope 248 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: from the bed post that she referred to was being 249 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: held in the assailant's him and he was letting the 250 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: rope down with her body incrementally. The big thing then 251 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: getting back to injuries, Nazi and so he would have 252 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: killed her before and then yes she was What were 253 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: the knot cyriluette? What? What? What? What? What are the 254 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: knots called? They're very intricantly done. Not well, I'm not 255 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: the expert knots. I'll let Keith refer to that, but 256 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: you're quite right they were intricate knots, and the tugboat 257 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: operator and the defendant in this civil case quite familiar 258 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: and expert in in these knots. The big thing about 259 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: the death is I believe it was due to manual strangulation. 260 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: And the reason for that, Nancy, is that there was 261 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: a fracture of the chris quate cartilage. The chris quite 262 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: cartilage is the first ring of cartilaginous tissue at the 263 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: beginning of the trachea the windpipe. It is inches below 264 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: the Adam's apple. The fireroid. Oh my stars, O stars, 265 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: just got Morgan. Hold on, Cyril, I'm astounded at what 266 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: you're telling me. Just got Morgan with me. Professor Forensics, 267 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: Jackson State University, Joe Scott. I think what he's saying, Okay, 268 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: interpret from me what Cyril? What just said? I think 269 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: he's saying that on the front of her below where 270 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: the rope is, there is a fracture, a fracture or 271 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: an injury that means she was manually strangled, not dead 272 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: from the rest. Yes. Dr Wegg pointed out there was 273 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: no He He stated that there was no hemorrhage posteriorly, 274 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: which means on the back of the neck that uh, 275 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: that sup or that on the anterior side or the 276 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: front side of her neck. It would be consistent, It 277 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: would be consistent with someone having essentially sea clamped or 278 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: throttled her throat prior to death. If I could just 279 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: interject one little other possibility here, for peace's sake, please 280 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: speak English, regular English. I think I think that the 281 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: I think that this this may also uh, there may 282 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: be uh to consider the possibility that this might be 283 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: a perimortem event, which means in the throes of death 284 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: where she could have been strangled. She's in the midst 285 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: of dying, and then slowly she is to guarantee her death. 286 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: She slowly let down off of the front side of 287 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: this balcony and this results in her death along with 288 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: the manual strangulation. How is it that Joe Scott Morgan 289 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: and Cyril Weckt say it so plainly, but it was 290 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: still ruled an accident. And I mean, you guys are Cyril, 291 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: You're totally right on, as you so so often are. 292 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: I don't see how it could be anything but not 293 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: a suicide. I mean the naked outdoors thing. And I'll 294 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: tell you how I know that, Cyril. I once prosecuted 295 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: a murder that was first deemed a suicide and the 296 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: woman was found shot in the head, which also rarely 297 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: happens with women that they shoot themselves in the head. 298 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: But she was naked. Uh. I later found blood spatter 299 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: under her pillows, Cyril, which you know could not have happened. 300 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: Blood spatter doesn't creep under your pillow. That means it 301 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: was staged. So that's when I started studying statistics about 302 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: suicide to prove this was in fact a murder. But 303 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: Keith Greer, Zahaw family lawyer off a major victory in court. 304 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: Keith Greer didn't some neighbors here a woman screaming around 305 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: midnight at evening. A woman two doors down heard what 306 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: she said was a woman, not a young girl, not 307 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: an old woman, she said, a woman, she actually said, 308 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 1: actually in her thirties, screaming, help me, help me. Um. 309 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: She was sitting in her TV room with his hut 310 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: in the front of the house, with the window opened 311 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: and people outside making noise too. And when that helped 312 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: help rank to the neighborhood, the people outside talking stopped talking, 313 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: got quiet, She got quiet and stopped, turned her TV 314 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: down to listen for more to see if something else 315 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: was going to go on. And after waiting for a 316 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: while and not hearing any additional screams in the additional raucus, 317 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: she just went back to her TV. The people outside 318 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: started talking again. Okay, hold it right there, Keith, career, 319 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: high profile Seattle lawyer with me and Bremner who appeared 320 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: with me on on this case. And Bremner, what is 321 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: wrong with rich people? I mean they're all laid back 322 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: and their plush dan in their in their movie room. 323 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 1: I guess and they hears somebody screaming for help and 324 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: they go, oh, I guess it was nothing, And they 325 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: turned the TV back up. It's Coronado, Nancy, and it's 326 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: and it's things like this time happened in Coronado, and 327 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: actually was in that home talking to her husband, and 328 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: and of course when they saw things happened with activity 329 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: with response to of course this horrible tragedy. The next 330 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: day they're like, oh my gosh, put you and wanted 331 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: to together. So you get that sometimes, and you know 332 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: that there were there was so much in this case. 333 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: It's like you said, this never happens when women don't 334 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: hang themselves like this, naked off of balcony and everything else. 335 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: And also what's wrong with rich people? Is this case? 336 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: When I was involved, we couldn't get anybody the Sheriff's 337 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: department to change their minds about whether or not this 338 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: is a suicide. That was their belief. Well, you said 339 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: something else interesting, And I don't want to bore these 340 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: high profile lawyers and these these medical doctors. And we've 341 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: got Carol Lieberman who's a shrink, a psychiatrist, But can 342 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: we just talk for real just a moment, And I 343 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: mean you know this went down in a mansion, the 344 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: Spreckles mansion. Now that that's where they lived, the Spreckle's 345 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: Mansion on Ocean Boulevard. It's near that historic hotel, Hotel 346 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: del Coronado, and that is of the movie Some Like 347 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: It Hot remember that movie with Marilyn Monroe and Jack 348 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: lemon and I forgot who else. Anyway, it's super famous 349 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: and it began to be called the Mansion murder Mystery. 350 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: Now this mansion I researched it for right now belonged 351 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: to a sugar baron who made his money off sugar 352 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: millions and millions and millions of dollars. And it was 353 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: built out of this special I think limestone that actually 354 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: has changed color over time. And it's a tourist People 355 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: drive by this mansion and look at it, not because 356 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: of the death it took place, but because it's famous. 357 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: It's huge, it's sprawling, it's gorgeous. When you say people 358 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: in that neighborhood, man, you couldn't have said it any 359 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: better than that long story short nobody call nine. Did 360 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: you know a out a recent law that could leave 361 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: your personal data exposed online for anybody to find. If 362 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: you've turned on the news lately. You know the Internet 363 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches exposed private information, 364 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: There's a new cybersecurity threat every other day, and criminals 365 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: can sell the identity of you and your family on 366 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: the dart web. It's time you take the power back 367 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: by using a new website called truth Finder. Truth Finder 368 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: allows you to find out exactly what information exists about 369 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket, received a 370 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: lean from the I R S, forgotten about an embarrassing 371 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: social media profile. Truth Finder searches through millions of public records, 372 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: puts all that data together and one easy to read report. 373 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,239 Speaker 1: Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up 374 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: those close to you and make sure they're not hiding 375 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: something from their past. You also get free dart web 376 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: monitoring to make truth Finder the ultimate tool in identity protection. 377 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: If your personal info appears for sale in the dark web, 378 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: you'll be the first to know. Visit truth finder dot 379 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: com slash Nancy, enter your own name, get started. I 380 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: want to get to another issue. Cyril Wet, forensic pathologist 381 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: who worked for this family with me. Joseph Scott, Morgan, 382 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: forensics expert now Cyril, Uh, I don't want to get 383 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: your ire up, but don't. Medical examiners also look at 384 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding the murder. For example, I once prosecuted 385 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: a woman found dead the house burned down. Well, it 386 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: struck me very odd that she had blows to the head, 387 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: and I did a little digging. Took me about a month, 388 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: but I started at the location of the house, and 389 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: I went to every dry cleaner for the radius of 390 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: five miles out because I noticed that the husband didn't 391 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: have any suits in the home and he was a businessman. 392 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: I finally found all of his suits and a lot 393 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: of his shirts. He took them all to the dry 394 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: cleaner the day before the fire broke out. Isn't that 395 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: quite the coinkie dick? So I looked at the circumstances 396 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: surrounding the fire. He also removed all his family albums. 397 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: By the way, anyway, Cyril, what about that ridiculous scrawling 398 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: on the door of the guest bedroom claiming she saved him? 399 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: Can you save her? I mean that. When I heard that, 400 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: it reminded me of that ransome note air quote air 401 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: quote in the John and a Ramsey case, which sounded 402 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: like a fifth grade novelist had written it same thing here? 403 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: Who would write she saved him? Can you save the 404 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: brother the tugboat captain that flies in that night and 405 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: he's staying in the home from Rebecca is Kill? Isn't 406 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: he a fiction writer? Two things about that keep Rear 407 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: reached out for a question document examiner UM expert and 408 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: that examiner UM found one or two features that fitted 409 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: in with Adam Shock's writing. UM number one and number two. 410 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: The height at which that interesting statements was made was 411 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: I think taller than the outreach of Rebecca is a 412 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: house arm or certainly at the very very top of 413 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: an outstretched hand, and not just straight ahead. It was 414 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: written above the doorway and the outside of the room. 415 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: So that important, Cyril Wet, you know what if I 416 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: were not already married? Okay, when you talk like that, 417 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you what it does to me, 418 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: But I mean, Joseph Scott Morrigan, don't you just love forensics? 419 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: Aren't we just totally in the right field? Actually getting 420 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: chilled bumps on my legs right now just hearing Cyril 421 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: Wet explain why Rebecca's the hall did not write that? Yeah, 422 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: absolutely Nancy we can we considered his feet all day long, 423 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: and and and uh just basque in this because I 424 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, Uh, this cryptic message that's left behind, 425 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: it does sound like something that would have emanated from 426 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe a junior high schooler. I'm not 427 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: really sure. But you know, the contention is that she 428 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: would not have written a note like this, according to 429 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: her family. And I don't know that there's been any 430 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: conclusive proof that it was written in her hand. And 431 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: I think that that is is telling you. Let me 432 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: go to Dr Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist and author of a 433 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: brand new book on Amazon Lions, Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My, 434 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: How to Protect your child in a time of terror. 435 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: Dr Carroll, right now we really need to shrink because 436 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: Cyril weckt as renowned forensic pathologist, Joseph S. Gott Morgan 437 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: Professor of Forensics and Bremner Keith Greer, who knows the 438 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: facts like the back of his hand as a courtroom veteran. 439 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: But Dr Carol, this note, this note, she saved him? 440 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: Can he save her? Cyril has already explained why she 441 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: could not have written that physically, But what does the 442 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: note in its cryptic nature, mean to you, doctor Carol Lieberman, 443 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: good question. Um. Presumably it means that that she saved 444 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: Jonah um, and can can Jonah save her? You know, 445 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: I I have a like totally different First of all, 446 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't think it was a suicide. There's no way though. 447 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: That's not how women commit suicide. She would not have 448 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: been macause she wouldn't have hanged herself like that, So 449 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: that's not the way. But you know, there's one other 450 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: part that I think it all relates, you know, Keith Greer. 451 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: This reminds me of why after one time I never 452 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: listened at the jury deliberation door again because at what 453 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: they come up with is like, uh, where did that 454 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: come from? Let me first say there is not a 455 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: shred of evidence linking Dana, who I have met Anne 456 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: and very impressed with Dana shack Knight. She was a loving, 457 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: loving mother to Max. There's nothing whatsoever linking her or 458 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: her twin sister Nina to the death Rebecca's death. Now, 459 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: I will tell you something freaky. Witnesses stated they saw 460 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: Max's mom bamming on the door the night Rebecca was killed. 461 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: All right, turns out it was her twin sister. I mean, 462 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: can this plot get any crazier? But nobody ever came 463 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: to the door, and that has been confirmed, and Nina left. 464 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: All right, there's no connection. As a matter of fact, 465 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: you first threw all of them in the pot together 466 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: to stet Keith Greer, but something made you drop everyone 467 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: except the brother Adam shack Knight. Right now, I want 468 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: you to listen to Adam Shatney as he calls nine 469 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: one one to report that he finds Rebecca's the hall 470 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: dead here reporting, Yeah, I got a girl on herself. 471 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: Get house. It's on Ocean Boulevard across from the hotel, 472 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: same place that you came and got the kid yesterday. Okay, 473 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: so what is the address? I'm not sure? Huh nineteen 474 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: I'm in the backhouse is nine company? H I'm not sure? 475 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: W we call you back? Okay, sir, you don't go alive. 476 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: I don't know you're alive. Oh okay, let's go alive. 477 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Okay, let me get some fire 478 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: out here. Hang on, let me get the fire department 479 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: on the phone. Now. Okay, what's wrong? Okay for the Okay, 480 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: how are they dirty? Okay? Ny far So it's like, okay, 481 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: it should be on the hell I'm doing right now, 482 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: and okay, all right, what is your name? You just 483 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: heard the brother who flew in the tugboat captain, the 484 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: amateur fiction writer who flies in the night, that Max 485 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: is killed, that Max is hurt and stays in his brother, 486 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: Jonah shack Nice home with Jonah's girlfriend. Rebecca's a hall. Okay. 487 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: A lot of things jumped out at me during that call. 488 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: For instance, he refers to Rebecca as the hall, as 489 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: that girl, a girl and the kid, and he doesn't 490 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: know if she's dead because she's hanging there. Um. All 491 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: of that struck me as odd to Keith Greer, could 492 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: you please tell me why you included the brother Adam 493 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: shack Ny in your civil suit. And this is after 494 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: the sheriff rules this is all just a big accident. 495 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: She killed herself is suicide. Why did you go forward 496 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: with a wrongful death action? Why did you drop the 497 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: mom Max's mom out of it? Why did Jonah the 498 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: boyfriend wasn't involved. Why did you hone in on the 499 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: tugboat captain, brother Adam shack Ny. The key to the 500 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: whole case is that's saying on the door, you know 501 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: she saved him? Can you save her? And when we 502 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: went into we tried to fege okay, who got saved here? 503 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: And the medical records and the interviews with the family 504 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: members are all consistent that Rebecca had saved Max that 505 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: morning when he fell. She was immediately there. She immediately 506 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: started CPR. Those first couple of minutes are so important 507 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: to the survival rate. She kept providing CPR until the 508 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: first responders got there. So she had saved Max. And 509 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: throw the next few days, um everybody felt that way. 510 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: In fact, the day she was murdered, um Nina testified 511 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: and senator at trial that Jonah had told her and 512 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: this is the evening she was murdered. Jonah had told 513 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: her earlier that evening. The next time she sees Rebecca, 514 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: she needs to thank getting, to get down on her 515 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: knees and thank her for saving Max, because if she 516 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: hadn't have been there, Max wouldn't have any chance at all. 517 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: And so since the she saved him, she saved Max. 518 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: There's only a handful of people that knew the Rebecca 519 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: saved Max, and with the immediate family members and who 520 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: are aware of it, first responders and healthcare providers at 521 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: the hospital, so we ruled out first responders. We ruled 522 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: out healthcare providers at the hospital. That left us with 523 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: a half dozen members of the family were aware of 524 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: Rebecca saving Max, and in the beginning we had three 525 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: of those people at the mansion that evening. Hold On, 526 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I've gotta flow 527 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: chart in front of me with me veteran trial lawyer, 528 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: Keith Greer, who actually represented Rebecca's the Hawes family. That 529 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: was a fight to the Finnish, Keith Greer, and you 530 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: were triumphant, Keith Greer, trial lawyer. Keith. You're saying that 531 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: the phrase the phraseology on the door, which I think 532 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: was wittning some like pain or something black black acrylic paint. 533 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: Who would write that on their door? Anyway? Hold On, 534 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: I got a lot of thoughts colliding in my head. 535 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: It said she saved him? Can he save her? Can 536 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: you save her? On the guest bedroom door in which 537 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: Rebecca the haws rope, her hanging rope was tied to 538 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: a bed strung across the room and over the balcony 539 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: to wait her down. Okay, so you're saying process of elimination. 540 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: Who knew that somebody saved somebody. Only a few people, 541 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: the family and the first responders, So you did process 542 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: of elimination. Several of those people were at the hospital 543 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: all night. Dana Shack n I, Zach, Max's mom, Jonah 544 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: shack n I, Nina was back and forth, I think 545 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: to the hospital, the twin sister, Okay, the first responders. 546 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: I don't think they snuck in the house and did it. Okay, 547 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: take it from there, Keith, Yes, Initially we had an 548 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: eyewitness that put Denis shack Knight at the mansion that night, 549 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: and he was very Adam and spoke to him several times. 550 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: He was sure it was not Nina, the twin sister, 551 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: because they're not identical twins Um and so he and 552 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: he said it was definitely Dina. So I had Nina 553 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: there at the scene. She fits the the was a 554 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: part of that group that knew that Rebecca had saved 555 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 1: Max Um and the motive here, you know, with being 556 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, jealousy, perhaps with Rebecca, perhaps blaming Um, Rebecca 557 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: for Adam's fall in the first place. You know, in 558 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: a bit of rage, we're thinking we've got we've got 559 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: a very upset mother with a motive there at the scene. 560 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: Um Nina admitted she was there. She said that she 561 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: had gone by that evening, you know, to see Rebecca, 562 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: and we had Adam there staying the night. And so 563 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: initially we had all three of those folks there, and 564 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: based on the facts, we had attempted to put together 565 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: the scenario of what happened, how this all worked out. 566 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: We originally thought the confrontation, the first confrontation was between 567 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: Dina and Rebecca, and then Adam awoke and joined in, 568 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: and the three of them did this together. Okay, that's 569 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: a little far fetched to me that you think you're 570 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: going to get it. They Max's mom and her twin sister, 571 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: and the tugboat captain brother to all gree to commit 572 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: murder and fake it to look like a suicide. And 573 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: not a single forensic clue such as fingerprints, fibers, nothing 574 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: like that was found to point to any of them 575 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: in the murder room. But what can you tell me? 576 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: I noticed a crazy question, but why does Rebecca, as 577 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: the hall's minstrel cycle have anything to do with this? 578 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: That's the evidence of Rebecca left behind was key to 579 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: putting the salt together. Um in the master bedroom shower 580 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: there is a drop of what's believed to be Rebecca's blood. 581 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: The police did not test it to confirm it. It 582 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: was assumed it was her blood, So that evening we 583 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: believed that the whole process started when she was showering. 584 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: She turned off the shower long enough for a drop 585 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: of minstrel lets it drop on the bottom of the shower. 586 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: Then somehow she winds up on the other side of 587 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: the house, um and up half the floor and the 588 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: gain in the guest bedroom area with a bathtel on 589 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: and her cell phone, and and right at the entrance 590 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: to the bedroom to the guest bedroom there are four 591 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: more drops of menstrual blood on on the floor on 592 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: the carpet right next to where the towel that she 593 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: was wearing is dropped on the floor piled up right 594 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: next to these four spots. So we interpret that as 595 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: being she stood there in front of Adam long enough 596 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: to have the four drops hit the floor. Then things 597 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: went south and she attempted to escape, dropped the towel, 598 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: screamed for help that was heard by the next door neighbor, 599 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: and at that point in time she was bashed on 600 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: the back of the head four times, rendered at least 601 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: partially unconscious, and then the scenario continued from there. Do 602 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: we have abrasions on the back of her head. She No, 603 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: she has very very thick hair, because she had very 604 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: thick hair, which wouldn't give it the superficial injuries. We 605 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: think she was hit after she tempted to escape and 606 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: screamed for help and he needed to shut her up. 607 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: He panicked. H He stayed in an interview that he 608 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: had a history of panic attacks. He stated it was 609 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: within airplanes. Um, but it sounds like it was a 610 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: panic reaction. As you know, she's sprinting away from him, 611 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: screaming and he hit her from behind on the right side, 612 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: up the right side of her head to shut her up. 613 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: Was there any physical evidence of uh an injury on 614 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: the right side of her head? Yeah, four up the 615 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: lil hembridge is um all on the upper right side 616 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: of her head. That's not really really consistent with a hanging. 617 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: So you're right. What about a knife found with her 618 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: first of all? Yes, No, Joseph Scott Morgan, Can forensics 619 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: experts tell the difference between minstrel blood and free flowing 620 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: blood like from a cut. Yes, Okay. Well, I can't 621 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: believe you answered it in one word. Okay, that's kind 622 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: of a damn. Don't you dare me? Yeah, you showed me. Okay, 623 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: So we know that is minstrual blood. Uh four drops 624 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: on the She had an I U D and so 625 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: it is. You know, it's blood from her vagina. We 626 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: know that's the source. And if it's full menstrual blood, 627 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: it was never tested. They tested and confirmed it was 628 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: her blood. The only source of blood is the blood 629 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: from her vagina, which was confirmed on autopsy that she 630 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: had the blood pooling in her vagina um. But but 631 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: it was never tested to determined you know it was 632 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: it full menstrual cycle blood? Was it something related to 633 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: the I U D. All we know is it was 634 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: blood coming from her vagina and there was no trauma, 635 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,439 Speaker 1: no trauma. But there's a difference between that and free 636 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: flowing blood. Let me ask you another question, Keith Grew, 637 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: What about a state knife covered in blood? What can 638 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: you tell me Abo that where was it and where 639 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: the blood come from? Yeah, this was the most shocking 640 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: piece of evidence in the case. And we didn't figure fact, 641 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: I didn't figure it out. It was our blood splatter 642 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: expert Lisa de Mayo, um, she looked at the pictures 643 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: of a steak knife, just a standard table steak knife, 644 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: had a black handle with three rivets on the handle, 645 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: and and the police had noticed that there was the 646 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: bottom rivet closest to the base of the handle was 647 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: read on both sides was red and they thought it 648 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: was blood. They tested it it was in fact blood, 649 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: so so the sheriff had actually confirmed there was blood 650 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: on the rivets on both sides of the handle, but 651 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: nobody took it a step forward to see if their 652 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 1: blood on all the way around the handle. And our 653 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: expert Lisa de Mayo, said, we need to go down 654 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: to the evidence of locker and look at this, and 655 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: we did. And when we pulled that out and she 656 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: showed me what she found, my stomach just flipped because 657 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: it was clear that that you had blood all the 658 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 1: way around and the only source of blood being her vagina, 659 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: means she was sexually assaulted with the handle of that 660 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: state knife. And and that, I mean, I think anybody 661 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: thinking about suicide, if they had any doubt at all, 662 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: that would throw it over the top. There's also there's 663 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: no fingerprints on this knife anywhere so whoever inserted that 664 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: into her wiped the princes off and uh, it just 665 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: it seems beyond reason that a woman would violate herself 666 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: with the handle of the knife, you know, and then 667 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: and then wipe it off along with all the other 668 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,760 Speaker 1: and just so overwhelmed and Bremner or high profile Seattle lawyer, 669 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: Uh that this is as of right now officially is 670 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: still gained a suicide. It's it's just outrageous and unbelievable. 671 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,439 Speaker 1: There was so much there to say it was something 672 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: else and all they needed to do, Nancy, as you 673 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: well know, it's just investigating. I mean, why are families 674 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: put in positions like the z how family of having 675 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 1: to investigate this case themselves civilly and uh it's finally 676 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: of justice. But it shouldn't have happ to be done 677 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 1: this way. No, it should have been need to reopen 678 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: And to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, you're on the outside 679 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: looking in, as am I with this evidence. Don't you 680 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: think it at least warrants a grand jury investigation for 681 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: criminal charges? Absolutely it does, Nancy, there there is you know, 682 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: obviously in the civil in civil context, there is a 683 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: preponderance of evidence, but I could go further than that 684 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: and state that the evidence, the evidence that we see 685 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: before us, it would give a reasonable person pause to 686 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: consider everything, and certainly not the first thing that you're 687 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: gonna jump to is going to be suicide. It's beyond 688 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: the pale. In all of my years of experience, and 689 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: there's been other people that have said this about this case, 690 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: I have never ever worked a case in New Orleans 691 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: or Atlanta, or been involved in a case doing a 692 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: follow up investigation involving these sets of circumstances surrounding a 693 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: suicide involving a woman. This thing is so complex that 694 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: it is mind blowing that someone in the forensic community 695 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: that is working for a governmental agency or law enforcement 696 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to look into this further. Take a listen 697 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:20,839 Speaker 1: to Rebecca's sister, Mary the how Loner, speaking after Keith 698 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: Greer wins this incredible civil verdict. She demands justice. Listen, 699 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,439 Speaker 1: no matter what happens, Rebecca, I can't get her back, 700 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 1: our family can't get her back. But hopefully people will 701 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: know that she didn't commit suicide, and she was murdered 702 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: and she doesn't deserve to be treated the way the 703 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department tweeted her, what would you say the sheriff 704 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: board today, I would like you to be honest, to 705 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: be truthful, and to reopen the case and investigated as 706 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: a murder. Now the tugboat captain brother who was alone 707 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: at the home that night, at the mansion with Rebecca's 708 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: a house now now dead, Adam Shack and I has 709 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 1: his own response. Listen to what he says after the 710 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: civil verdict against him, one by Keith Greer. Here's Adam Shat, 711 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: the same person I was inn when this happened in 712 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: when they filled the lawsuit that I thought, well, I 713 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: just wanted to turn around and sue for defamation because 714 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: I don't think you should be able to say something 715 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: like that in public about somebody, uh for fifty bucks 716 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: or whatever it costs completely made up. But hopefully it's 717 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: eventually gonna come back to after a reversal, a defamation suit, 718 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: a malicious prosecution suit, uh, all stuff like that. But 719 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: like I said, I'm not worried about it. I'm proud 720 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: of the case. We made a lot worse things have 721 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 1: happened to a lot better people, so this is nothing 722 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: to me. I'm disappointed, but I got plenty of fighting me. 723 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: I got plenty of health, I got married, I got 724 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,879 Speaker 1: lots of good friends, I got family and uh who 725 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: I was worried about me from? You know, family and 726 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: everything else is just this ain't nothing. Adam Shatny, the 727 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,360 Speaker 1: tugboat fiction writer brother, is not a person of interest. 728 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: He is not a suspect. Does a matter of fact, 729 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: this case is still officially a suicide. But let me 730 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: ask you, Keith Greers, of how family lawyer has Mr 731 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: shack and I Adam Shackny, the tugboat captain brother. Has 732 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 1: he filed a defamation lawsuit? No? You know, as I 733 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: commented and torked to that there thing is malicious winning. 734 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: You know, that's in order to have any type of claim, 735 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: that has to be a proof and juria has to 736 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: come back and say he didn't do it. You know, 737 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,840 Speaker 1: there's no judgment against him that he prevails. Um. You know, 738 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 1: when when you file something with court, it's a privilege 739 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: a document. Those are privileged statements that jury looks at them, 740 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: makes a ruling when you win. Um, there's no cause 741 00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: of action. You know, he's just blown smoke. Um went 742 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,839 Speaker 1: off on a rant. I thought if his attorneys were 743 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: very happy he was doing. Why do you say that? 744 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: He just you know, he pushed his attorney out of 745 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,800 Speaker 1: the wind and went to the mic. I saw the 746 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: look on Dan Webb's face. Um. I think they did 747 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: a good job of keeping him under control. During the trial. 748 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: It seemed like there was always somebody with him. He 749 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,760 Speaker 1: was always dressed nice, He was, you know, very quiet. 750 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: And then after the verdict came back, you know, we 751 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,240 Speaker 1: showed up in jeans and a T shirt and banana 752 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: yellow tennis shoes and spiked tear and started spouting off 753 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: what appeared to be to me anyway, just out of control. Um. 754 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:35,720 Speaker 1: I think that's I think we saw the true Adam. 755 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 1: I think we saw the true Adam at that point. 756 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,280 Speaker 1: After Keith Greer wins a civil suit in the Rebecca 757 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: is a Hall case, they can the San Diego County 758 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department has a long, let's just say, meeting with 759 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: Keith Greer, the lawyer, and they have just announced their 760 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: plan to reopen the investigation into the disturbing a mysterious 761 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,919 Speaker 1: death at the Coronato mansion of this beautiful young girl, 762 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: Rebecca the Haw Is it real, Keith? Are they really 763 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: reopening the investigation. I think it is real. I think 764 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: they have to. I think with the public scrutiny that's 765 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: going on here, they don't have any other choice. And 766 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: I think that that public scrutiny will also result in 767 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,799 Speaker 1: them making the right choice, because if I think if 768 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,839 Speaker 1: they came back and said, no, we're holding by our 769 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 1: decision and a suicide, I think the public outcry would 770 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: be incredibly loud. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend. 771 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: Did you know a recent law can leave your personal 772 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: data exposed online for anybody to find? 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