WEBVTT - Ep18 - Ava DuVernay / "13th" 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.120 This episode of Playback is brought to you by Warner 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:04.760 Brothers Pictures, with Sully selected as one of the best 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.200 films of the Year by a f I based on 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:11.080 Captain Sully Sullenberger's Unforgettable Landing on the Hudson River, directed 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.600 by Clint Eastwood, Produced by Clint Eastwood, Frank Marshall, Alan 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.639 Stewart and Tim Moore, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, and 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:35.360 Laura Lenny. For your consideration in all categories, Welcome to Playback, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.280 a Variety podcast on your host, Variety Awards Editor Chris Tapley. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.760 On today's show, we talked about the recent w g 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.120 A nominations and the upcoming Golden Globes, as well as 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.120 a few suggestions for Academy members receiving the ballast This week. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:50.560 A little bit later, are we talking to thirteenth director 0:00:50.600 --> 0:01:07.240 Ava Duverney. So stick around. Alright, folks, I'm here again 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.360 with Janelle Riley. Welcome. We're in the year that will 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.520 be better than two thousand sixteen. Everyone thing it has 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:18.040 to be. It has to be. No. Look like, nine 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.880 days into the year, my dog died, I mean, come 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.600 on you, yeah, and then it just proceeded to go 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.920 downhill from there. I no longer have a dog, so 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.800 therefore has to be better be careful what you assume? 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.600 That's true. I am that crazy person who like will 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:35.240 probably end up with twelve dogs by the end of 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.399 the year. Uh, we're fresh out of palm springs. Yes, fresh, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.520 I am like with the opposite of fresh. I am 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.160 worn down and tired. Did I tell you by the 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.720 way that my hair dryer caught fire as I was 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:49.320 using it. I had a lot of problems with my 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.000 hotel room, and that was just the icing on the 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.040 kid I got there. Your room wasn't ready. I wasn't 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.760 ready you. I was shuttling between two different rooms because 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.320 the shower wasn't working. Literally like trudging a suit case 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.160 across these beautiful grounds that I'm sure look great in 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:05.440 the morning, but when it's one o'clock in the morning 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.640 and there's no signs and no light. And then I 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.640 pumped into Amy Adams, also in sweatpants and yet somehow 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.519 looking red carpet ready, and I'm like, oh God, don't 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.120 recognize me, don't recognize me? And champagne problem. Yeah, you know, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.760 it's so funny. I wasn't going to name the hotel 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.120 I will. Okay, Well, it wasn't their fault, it was. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:30.000 It was just a confluence of yeah, and it's the 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.480 grounds are beautiful, they do our brunch. It's such a 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.120 lovely event. But yes, as my friends were yelling at 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.360 me the other day, these aren't real problems, Janelle. Yeah, 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.640 it was the annual Pump Springs Gallo Wards Gallo Annual. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.000 I think have they been doing the actual gallow I 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.160 don't know because I'm twenty two, so it's way before 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.840 my time. You didn't have to laugh. I'm sorry you 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:58.959 didn't have to. Do you think? Do you think I have? 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.320 Very good, very nice? Yeah? So they had their annual gala, 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.160 big packed room of all the Palm Springs locals. Yes, 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:08.520 this is where we get to name drop that we 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:09.880 were at the coolest table in the room. We were 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.680 at a good one. Ryan Gosling Andrew Garfield, who I 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:15.400 threw off. I don't know if you noticed that. He 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.560 uh he got up to go accept his award and 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.040 I got up to go to another table to talk 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.880 to somebody, And so as he was coming back, he 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.840 went to sit down at that table and he was like, wait, 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.440 you moved funny walk across to get to his table. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.280 But yeah, that was a very nice table. Ryan Gosling 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.760 stands whenever a woman returns to her seat, gentlemen, so 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.000 just set the bar even higher. I was just like, really, dude, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.880 do you have to made me look so bad? But 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.080 that that events, it's a little taxing. I think it's hard. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.360 It's a long night. It's a long night, it's a 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.120 it's a lot of people, and honestly, some of them 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.680 are just uncouth. I mean taking pictures of people in bathrooms. Yeah, 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.600 I mean it's just the bathroom. Really, my first year 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.520 attending there, I just had the worst taste in my 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.480 mouth ever since this couple left from the table and 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.760 then they come back and the guys like holding up 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:06.680 or the girls holding up her camera like check it 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.040 out Angelina Jolie in the bathroom. Wow, God, get me 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.680 out of here. Okay? Is that really any different from 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.400 the you know, twenty five events we have here? Though 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.760 throughout this little I've always felt this a little sweaty there. Actually, really, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.240 I don't know. I mean, I guess they don't. It's 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:21.600 like there one time a year where they get these 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.480 big star studded thing and people show up in their 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.080 tuxes to do this Hollywood event. Well, apparently there's a 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:32.200 lot of Academy voters in Palm Springs. I've been told. Yeah, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.359 so it's it's smart, yes, no doubt, and anything you 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.400 do in Santa Barb. But there's like two voters up there. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.000 I mean, there's reasons that these things are yeah, strategically positioned. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.200 This year. I don't even remember the winners at this 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.279 point because all of these awards shows. It's funny because 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.440 they gave awards to just for example, like Natalie Portman 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.120 and Annette Benning and Nicole Kidman, so they can't just 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.080 call it the Actress Award. They have to make up. Yeah, 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:00.479 the desert poems like let's get everybody in here, which 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.159 again is smart, and poor Emma Stone was sick with 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.400 strap throat. You couldn't be there for the Vanguard Award 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.760 with Justin Hurwitz and Damien Chazelle and Ryan Goslin who 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.640 all accepted. And we're like, she's better by the Oscars 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.480 because I'm sure she'll sing sing. Hopefully she's better this 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.000 weekend in time for the Golden Globes to win. Oh, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.960 it's really not really a bold I'm not even sure 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:24.880 who's nominated against here. To be honest, do you think 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.080 we kind of talked about globes with some predictions. There 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.479 are some reader questions a few weeks ago, but anything crazy. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.120 I mean, it will probably be Emma Stone for actress 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.800 in a comedy musical. I assume I'm guessing Natalie Portman 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.080 for Jackie and drama. Um, look at this point, I'm 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.760 starting to think Ryan Reynolds will win for Deadpool because 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.120 Deadpool just keeps racking up nominations and win and like, 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.680 look at your face right now. Writer's Guild Awards Wednesday morning, 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.480 and uh, these people need to see more movies that 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.640 they depend on screeners, which is a problem and not 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.320 completely their fault. I want to be writers. They can't 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.599 pay to see the movie, but I want to be 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.400 fair because the way the timeline is, the way the 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.000 calendar is structured now everyone pretty much depends on their screeners. 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:12.640 And you know, one of the big misses was hax 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.440 all Ridge did not send screeners. Um, such a shame. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.240 It's I mean, decisions have to be made early on 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.880 who can prioritize. For instance, d G A received taxall screeners. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.159 I expect Gibson to show up there, but I think 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:30.640 he'll chopping the oscars too. Yeah, me too. And Captain Fantastic, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.320 you know was a possibility for original they sent out 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:37.880 digital screeners. I'm told I don't know if that matters 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.760 quite the same though. I mean, I personally don't have 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.160 a problem with it, but there are some people who 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.960 have this bias about watching it on their computer, which 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.760 is silly. Don't we watch everything on iPads? Now? I 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.479 mean maybe it's sacrilegic. I do not have this problem 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:56.039 of watching something on my laptop. Um. But Deadpool is 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:00.279 apparently a better screenplay than Love and Friendship Silent, which 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.000 they probably didn't see fair enough. Yeah, that's my guess. Uh. 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.800 You know, Hack's all Ridge, just there's a littany a 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.920 bigger Splash, for instance, which I think was one of 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.840 the years. Do you. Um, I don't have a problem 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.400 with this, and I know the w g A they 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.680 actually you know, they gave a nomination to Guardians of 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:22.160 the Galaxy. They tend to be friendly and that's true. Uh, 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.120 but Deadpool, I mean, I know, I'm I'm a slagging 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:26.600 on the movie or on our cover this week, and 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.320 that's what's hilarious. But like, and the movie is fun, 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.800 but they're and and it made a ton of money, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.760 and maybe people are worshiping that a little bit. I 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:39.600 just that's that's slightly embarrassing to me. I don't have 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.040 a problem with it. I don't know. Um, you know, 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:44.720 I didn't I didn't think the dead of all the 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.440 things that I liked about Deadpool, I don't know that 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.000 the script was, you know, so groundbreaking or original. But 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.720 I don't have a problem with it being nominated, you know. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.200 I mean, obviously there there might be things I find worthier. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.680 I'm trying to rack my brain right now. This is 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.720 where I embarrassingly admit I haven't seen love and friendship. Well, 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:08.200 I don't know, it's you're apparently not alone. But uh yeah, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.600 so now people are thinking, hey, it's it's deadpooling Oscar possibility. No, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.600 I make up, but I really think that's it. I mean, 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.000 I guess what if Brian Reynolds gets in for Best Actor. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.360 I'd be dumbfounded. Really, I mean, I love the guy. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.760 It's a great little performance. He was made for the role. Look, 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.600 I grew up reading Deadpool comics like this is in 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.360 my wheelhouse. I get it, but like its services that 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.640 I don't think there's anything. There's also this narrative behind 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.679 it about like how long it took to get made 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.080 and how they had to you know, fight for that 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.360 and yeah, and then the movie makes a ton of 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.640 money and does all this does as well as it's doing, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.360 and then get rid of the director for the next movie. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.480 Like what's the buzz on that? I don't know anything 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.040 about it. I just think that when you have a 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.800 formula and it worked and you cut off the head, 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.520 that's curious. But I don't know any Maybe we should 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.280 get justin crawled down here and talk. I you want 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.360 to point out that, um, the writers, as credited in 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:08.160 the Deadpool credits are the real heroes. So if Deadpool wins, 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.480 I guess does do they announce the award goes to 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.920 the real heroes? Really? Like in the movie, remember the 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.880 opening credits. The other thing this movie has stuck around, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.000 it's almost a year and it's it's I mean, kudos 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:21.560 to Fox. I mean they knew they wanted to do 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.880 this kind of irreverent like we're in to an Oscar 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.080 campaign and really, what else did they have? Until Hidden 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.880 Figures came along, which I'm so happy got into w 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.599 j A Yes Yes and opens this weekend wide. I 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.600 think it's going to be huge. I took my whole 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.040 family went to see it, and it was like my 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.000 nephew aged thirteen, and my father aged seventy three, Like 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.280 everybody loved it and just had these giant smiles. The 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.040 one movie my mom was asking about when she was 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.280 really she was like, have you heard about this movie? 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.280 I love when my parents said, hey, have you heard 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.400 anything about this movie that you've been talking about for 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.920 the last three months. If my mom always gets the 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.280 titles wrong, it's all is like figured, well, you know 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.120 the running joke with my dad and Hugh Jackman, he 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.800 it's Hugh Jackman is his favorite actor, but he can 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.320 never remember his name, And when I reminded him that 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.920 it's Hugh Jackman, he says, Stu Jackson. And I told 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.920 the story to Hugh Jackman at one point and he said, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.000 in your father's defense, Hugh Jackman is a weird name. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:30.079 It isn't interesting. Loving and Moonlight were nominated in Original 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.400 correct Adapted by the Academy. They'll be adapted by the 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.280 Academy so that opens up room for Captain fantastic I'm 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:43.080 hoping yeah, and presumably. Well the other thing is there's 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.680 other guilds this week, So could dead Pool be a 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.880 PGA nominee? I mean seven fifty million dollars? Like, I 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:52.400 think there was a time where that could have happened. 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.240 I mean, the PGA used to nominate movies like Harry 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.559 Potter the first one, and they did. Wow, I didn't 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.800 know that. That was back when they had five alive 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:05.760 in as we've established, if anything, you were in your diapers. Yes, uh, yeah, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:07.720 they used to nominate just five in that year. It 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.520 was Shrek and Harry Potter actually get out. Since then, 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.040 they've expanded it to ten. They've they've opened up an 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.320 animated category, and they've like merged with other groups, so 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.840 it's just a completely different organization. Really, can you be 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.360 nominated for Best Film by PGA but also in animated 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.200 or oh? Interesting? Not that I don't believe. So well, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.839 it's the everyone gets an award, Yeah, exactly exactly. But 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.200 what do you think anything with these guilts coming up 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.960 to Like with p g A, for instance, I think 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.400 I've been a little down on Arrival's chances of people 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:41.680 are like, what the hell's wrong with you? And I 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.079 just look, I just know. I mean it's it's honestly 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.040 odd to me that it's doing well. I'm thrilled, but 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.880 you know, I think you used the Nightcrawler comparison. Yeah, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.800 the dragon tattoo. Maybe. I mean it's just this hip 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.840 thing that will appeal to young members and guilds. But 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.440 I don't. But someone someone made a point to me 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.960 that the difference here is there's a very emotional component's 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.439 arrival yal yeah, yeah, And it's such a good adaptation. 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.640 I know I've been like flogging this for a while 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.760 on Twitter, but you know, having read the short story 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.040 it's based on, it is like a textbook definition of 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.360 a great adaptation, you know, being very true to the 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.760 source material in some way, but making it its own thing. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.840 I just, um, I don't know how his name is pronounced, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.440 but Eric heiss er Heiser. If I just say it 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:32.600 really fast, I messed up. Uh what was I gonna say? 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.480 Va Villaineuve? I think villain who was going to get 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.199 it for d g A I hope. So, I mean 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.319 it just makes sense for them to nominate him, and 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.280 he came around late in the game good ultimately because 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.920 he was doing Blade Runner. I think if there's like 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:46.880 any PGA surprises, I would love for it to be 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:51.680 something like Captain Fantastic. Um. I think Hidden Figures is in. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.520 We've always been pretty secure about that one. I think 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.840 that'll be that sort of the American Sniper story where um, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.400 you know, didn't do so well leading up to the Oscars. 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:06.480 But I'm still holding out hope for Geroggie. I think 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.880 you know, look, they haven't really I think the surprising 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.440 thing was missing the editing nomination. I kind of thought 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.200 that that was and for me, Tom Hanks failing to 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.360 get a Golden Globe or Sagnam, like, literally, what does 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.520 his man have to do? You know, they showed certainly 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.920 golden Globe, yet they showed a clip package for him 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.280 at Palm Springs. By the way, he was the bell 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.440 of the ball. He introduced Natalie Portman, gave an amazing speech, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:36.360 Andrew Garfield gave him a big shout out. Then he uh, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.319 you know, accepted his Icon Award. I guess it's called 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.280 and uh you know, they showed this clip package and 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.600 there was it's like I forget, like some of these 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.079 movies that Tom Hanks did. I still don't know how 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.040 he missed for Captain Phillips after that last infuriates me. 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.680 It's just like what happened that he was every he 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.000 worked hard, that he that he doesn't want it. Well, 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.000 he got doubly burned because he was also excellent and 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:02.480 saving Mr Banks. Yeah, but maybe you know, maybe, look, 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:07.319 nobody's feeling sorry for Tom Hanks. Having would be the 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.360 first to say it. Probably. I love that he just 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.600 seems to be having the best time wherever he goes. 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.679 He's just he's being Tom Hanks. He will win an 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:20.600 Emmy for David S. Pumpkins though that there is there 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.320 a place where you can nominate something like that. Yeah, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.040 it's in the I guess Catagoris. I think justin timber 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:30.120 Lake might have one that bring it on down to 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.600 whatever that sketch you Yeah, oh, I know it's hilarious. Yes, well, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.440 I think it was the year of blank in a box. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:41.960 He come on, I am a lady. I am a 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.680 young lady of twenty two who does not speak. What 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.040 else should we cover? I feel like there's not a 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:51.760 lot to say for a few weeks here. What do 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.200 you think will Happen at the Globe's and Best Actor 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.160 for a Drama. I mean, I don't know Casey Denzel, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.600 there's a part of me maybe a the pipe dream 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.600 I'm reading for Vigo as well. Um, I feel like 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:06.960 they'll probably get in line with Casey. But I do 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:12.160 think that Manchester is like not fully their cup of tea, 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.320 and they kind of like we should probably nominate it, right, 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.920 And they also want to match up with the Oscars 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.040 so they can say they are predictors. So but I 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.760 don't know how true that is though, Like you don't 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.280 want people. It's not like they get together in a 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.200 room and say, Okay, we gotta get the Oscars correct. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.360 Like I don't know. I think that's exactly what I 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.480 really do. I think that they're nominally Aaron Taylor Johnson 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.040 for Nocturnal Animals. No. I think like the nominations can 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.760 be a little out there, but ultimately they want to 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.040 give it to the person who's going to win the 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.200 Oscar so that they can say, you know, we've predicted 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.720 the Oscar winners, and you know, it makes it a 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.880 bigger deal. It makes people, you know, want to be 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.800 nominated more campaign more go to the go to the show. 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.600 What I've always said about the Globes is it's it's 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.400 a stellar marketing opportunity. That's what it is. I mean, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.760 it's they're the one show this where the critics choice 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.040 dropped the ball this year. They're the one show in 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.080 the middle of voting, right, so uh it makes them 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.880 more relevant and uh, you know, it presents all of 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.360 that marketing capital for you to to spend. So it's 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.760 it's you know, it is Oscar voting open right now? Yes, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.640 Oh wow, Okay, this morning ballots went out. Anything that 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.920 you want to make sure, like if any voters are listening, like, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.360 please put this screener in consider this person. Anything. Have 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.680 you heard of this movie called La La Land I 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.320 just turned into on the radar. No sorry, I did 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.040 a La La lan q and A with Ryan Goslin 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.160 last night, and I have to reiterate um, because the 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.600 movie is fun and to some extent lighthearted. I don't 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.800 know if people really appreciate the hard hard work these 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.560 actors did, I mean not just learning to in his case, 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.440 play the piano, singing and dancing. But gosh, I just 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.360 kept thinking, you know this, this movie looks like a 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.120 hundred million dollars, but it was shot it's more us 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:06.760 an independent movie to some degree between and thirty. Yeah, um, 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:08.560 but like I just kept thinking, like, you know, they 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.080 do these long takes, they're losing light. You know, nobody 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.679 wants to be the person who, like you've just completed 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.200 a big musical number shot in one take and you 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.280 sneeze and blow the tag or something. You would like 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.639 to remind Academy voters of the movie that is likely 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:24.680 to receive about thirty nominate. I would like to remind 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:26.879 them of the performances and not to take them for 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.680 granted a lot of time. Um, so you think Emma 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.720 and Ryan will win? Oh no, I'm talking about nominations. See, 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.280 but like every year there's a big shocker that's left off, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.000 and I could see, like, you know, like what if 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.479 Ryan gets left off? That often happens yet because of 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.000 people taking things for granted, Like, oh, Ben Affleck is safe, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:53.600 I'm gonna vote for Ben's Bene Ben Dozens. Yeah, you 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.639 could have chosen people two different names. That Ben and 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.199 Ben was very in my mind. I saw Ben spelled 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.760 b e h n, so I knew our listeners are smart. Yeah, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:06.200 they are very smart. Um, I think, uh, you know again, 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.119 not it's not a dark horse per se, but hidden figures. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.439 Kevin Costner doing some of the best. He was, you know, 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.160 one of our I guess the last yeah, the last 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.960 podcast was coming interview. He's great in that movie and 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.879 uh really just comfortable in the role. And and I 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.239 think that's a difficult thing to pull off looking so 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.399 at ease in a character, you know. And let's talk 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.800 about some of those supporting actors in Fences. Oh yeah, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:36.320 I met Michael T. Williamson at our was that our 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:41.199 brunch yesterday? Missed him? Sorry, I was busy talking to 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.880 Matt Ross. Well, yeah, yeah, I would. I would say 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.520 Kevin's Kevin's a good one. Kevin's a great one. I 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.080 mentioned in our top fives. You know, Not that I 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.320 think anyone's gonna take this seriously, but I do think 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.680 Anton Yelchin was really good in Room and uh like 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.920 like really good, not just like serviceable, like really good. 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.640 So I'd like to throw out the lobster for screenplay 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.960 as well. I think that's going to get in. Um. Look, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.320 best actor is a crazy crowded field like a while ago, 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.840 was looking like really really empty. Um, but you know 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:17.479 if if people could check out the founder. I think 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.520 Michael Katon is really really good. Yeah, he's he's hard 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.440 to like not root for. Here's when we both agree 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.639 with and it's a seg uh. Maybe consider it for 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.440 more than just best documentary. I mean it's one of 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.080 the best films of the year period and people do 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.400 is the interview this week? Really? Can I just tell 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.000 you one of my favorites speaking of how my dad 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.640 never remembers names or people he's I will not even 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.960 tell you how many times he's but her Tom Hilson's name. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.280 I mean, the man's name is Tom. It's not that hard. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.560 But the one person that he has never forgotten he 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.639 met her two years ago at that brunch. Have we 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.520 talked about this on this podcast. I don't know. I 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:00.520 feel like people might be. I know that I've talked 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:02.520 about it at length on Twitter that my dad is 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.280 in love with Avid Verney. Yes, yes, she's the one 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.840 that left left the mark on your day go fig here. Well, 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.320 she is a striking person. She is gorgeous and um, 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.199 I would not mention how much my father is in 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:15.800 love with her, except he is also a huge fan 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:17.840 of her work. So it's I don't want like to 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.359 get in trouble the way Steve Martin did by pointing 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.600 out that Carry Fisher is beautiful and also talented and amazing. Yeah, 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.760 I know, I'm actually that's that's the world we live in. 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.240 But anyway, throw to shout out for Patriot's Day, Patriots Day, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.000 the editing especially, Yeah, the way that movies put togethers 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.399 and deep Water. Yeah, these late arrivals that are really 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.440 really deserving. Definitely. All right, we'll stay tuned for AVA 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:55.880 right after this. Again. This episode of Playback is brought 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.480 to you by Warner Brothers Pictures with Sully, which Richard 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.919 Brody of The New Yorker says, is quote a deeply 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.280 felt achievement directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron A. 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.480 Cart and Laura Lenny for your consideration. In all categories, 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.080 Amendment to the Constitution makes it unconstitutional for someone to 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:35.159 be held as a slave. There are exceptions, including criminals. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:41.840 The bloophole was immediately exploited, but you got after that 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.760 was a rapid transition to a mythology of black commonality 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:56.880 that needed to be controlled better. Believe, became virtually impossible 0:21:56.960 --> 0:21:59.960 for a politician to run and appear soft on crime, 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.200 the kinds of kids that are called super predatories. Millions 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:06.399 of dollars will be allocated for prison and jail facilities. 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:10.639 Three strikes and you are. It was an enormous burden 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.920 in the black community, but it also violated a sense 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:22.080 of core fairness. After all, don't welcome back everyone. I'm 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:28.160 here with thirteen director Ava du Vernay, Ava Havany Yere Chris. 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.480 It's two seventeen. Aren't we glad to put two thousand 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.880 sixteen behind? I think we all are. Yeah, I'm glad 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:36.359 we finally got you in here. By the way, I know, 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:38.800 I like I like this place. I've been trying to 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:43.119 relay it in for months now. I was willing to 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:44.760 go to the set of your movie to talk to 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.400 you if I had to. You're so busy, You're such 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:48.399 a busy lady. Now. I wanted to come, but I 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.000 got five jobs. I know. Well, let me ask you 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.320 about that. Actually, do you I mean, I'm not well, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:56.479 I don't know. I don't think I'm lazy. But if 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:58.760 I can find a way to not leave the house, 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.720 I probably you won't leave the house. Do you? Is 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:07.160 living such a full life super important to you. Um, 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.400 I feel like I am living a busy life when 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.639 it comes to work, but not the fullest life I 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.520 can live like as an overall human being. I mean, 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.199 you have a family and a child, and I'm like, 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.080 have nine jobs, you know what I mean. So one 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.119 of my resolutions for the New Years to try to 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.200 actually have a fuller life that's not just all work 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.280 because between the television show and the doc and then 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.440 shooting a new movie and array my work with a 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.439 ray Our distribution collaborative, you know, it's just a lot 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:43.320 of work. Yeah. Well this movie, you know, speaking of 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:45.800 like how busy you are you're working on it and 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.679 I didn't know you were working on this movie quiet projects. 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.280 Yeah yeah, I don't know. This felt like one that 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:58.480 didn't need to be like announced in the trades, right 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.399 as I said in the Trade office, Um, just because 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.159 I think I got more access to folks because we 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.000 weren't kind of waving the flag that we were doing it. Um, 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.439 you know, I was approaching people as it was was 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.200 an exploration and investigation into some of these things that 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.760 I want to know more about. Um. So yeah, I 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.760 felt like the trade article maybe could wait until later. 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:22.320 I'm glad we did. Yeah, well, I knew about it 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:25.720 a long time ago myself, So I knew about this 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:31.080 secret A small handful of folks, yes, but uh yeah, 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:33.800 just that idea of being so busy in your work life. 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:37.560 What does that speak to? Is that kind of how 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:39.879 you were raised? Is there a work ethic instilled in you? 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.360 Is sorely work ethic. My father owned his own business, 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:47.879 and so you know, just that kind of around the 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:49.560 clock here that you have to give to something as 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:51.639 an entrepreneur, or something that I definitely saw in my 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:53.800 mother of course at different times of my life working 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.040 two three jobs. I think for me it's more about Um, 0:24:57.680 --> 0:24:59.320 I don't know, I feel like this kind of a 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:05.080 ticking career wise, only because I have not seen anyone 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:07.840 that is like me that has had a long career 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.800 doing what I do. I can't point to Yeah, I 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.119 can't point to any women who have had, you know, 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:18.960 a thirty year career that's consistent an American woman anyway, 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.760 certainly not American woman of color. Um, very few you 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:26.600 know filmmakers of color period from this country, and so 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.040 there's not like there's a whole lineup of folks I 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:30.600 can say, oh, I want to have a career like that, 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:32.879 So that leads me to believe that that kind of 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:36.520 career is rare and that I don't find myself to 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:39.960 be exceptional. So in line with that, I should be 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:42.679 a realist and make as much as I can, truly 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:44.560 make as much as I can during this time. I mean, 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:47.240 you know, favor in Hollywood, in the industry comes in 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:49.800 and out, and so right now I have some attention 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:52.600 and the windows open and there's some favor and uh, 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:54.320 you make as much as you can while you can. 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:56.640 Well that speaks to what I think is really interesting 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.600 about your career right now is it's a sense of escalation, 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:01.879 like you put your foot down on the on the 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:04.400 gas and you haven't let off. You know, you started 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:10.280 with documentaries, you moved into intimate dramas, go off and 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:13.479 do Selma, which is not like it's still an intimate 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:15.600 drama and very much you, but it's obviously there's a 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.240 bigness about a movie like that. And then something like thirteen. 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:22.679 It's not like you you know, found some like shoe 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.960 Repairman in Alabama and made like a little profile documentary. 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:28.399 This is a significant work. And now you're doing this 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.919 hundred million dollar large scale Disney movie. I feel like 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:33.960 at some point we're gonna see your Star Wars movie 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:37.160 or something. He's just kind of the What I'm saying 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.119 is the trajectory is just like this, and uh, I 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.719 guess everything you just said speaks to that. Well. It's 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:45.000 funny because when you say trajectories like this, your hand 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:48.840 went up as if it was like ascent. I just 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:54.080 feel like it's. Ah, I don't know what linear or 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.920 elateral like. It's just continuing, which is my only desire, 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:01.320 you know, whether I'm I'm making Wrinkling Time for Disney 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:03.840 or The Thirteenth, which was just a very started at 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.120 as a very small doc and a very small doc 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:08.440 for Netflix, or whether or not I jump in to 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:10.920 do my own indie project next, which is what I'll 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:15.159 be doing next. I just need to keep working, you 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:17.800 know what I mean. I'm not trying to improve anything 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:21.879 or go anywhere specific. I just want consistency, and that's 0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:24.119 been what has been lacking in the careers of so 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.200 many women and people of color for so long. Yeah, 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.879 I hear you well, speaking of thirteen, Uh, I just 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:32.400 want to pause here. First of all, the movie is. 0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:37.879 It's a documentary about what how this country has found 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:40.640 a way to exist as a perpetual slave state through 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:45.520 mass incarceration, prison industrial complex. If you haven't seen thirteen, 0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:47.800 you can do it right now. You can press pause, 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:50.080 Ava and I will be here when you get back. 0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:53.720 Just pick us up when you're finished. You'll you'll be 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:57.720 the conversation will be richer as a result. I think, um, 0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:59.080 you know, like I said, it was kind of under 0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:01.439 the radar, But when when did you first decide I 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:04.479 want to make a movie about this subject? Yeah? It 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:07.520 was the most unlikely phone call was a call from 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:11.200 Lisa Nashamuro, who hads documentaries at Netflix, asking do you 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:15.640 want to make a doc which I translated into are 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.439 you going to give me money to make it? I 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:22.240 still think very indemnded. When I was the first three films, 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:24.000 I spent my own money to make them, you know, 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.760 and scraping up the money. So when they said, you 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:29.959 know that they wanted to go ahead and fund something. 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:33.760 My pitch was to do a piece about the prison 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:38.760 industrial complex, mostly the money that's being made off punishment, 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:42.360 profit off punishment, and that process and the power all 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:44.760 tied up into that. But as I got into that, 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:47.520 I realized you can't really tell that story and talk 0:28:47.560 --> 0:28:51.400 about like prison labor now that J. C. Pennies or 0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:54.400 Victoria's Secrets was practicing or or dabbling in for a 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:58.480 while without people understanding the black codes and reconstruction in 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:00.800 prison labor during that time. So okay, So now I 0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:03.160 have to go back and tell you that. Okay, So, 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:04.960 but you're not gonna understand that unless you know the 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:07.280 context of the time. When I gotta get back to slavery. Okay, 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:08.760 if I'm in slavery, I might as well tell you. 0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:10.600 Do you know about the thirteenth the moment? Let me 0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:12.920 tell you about that. Then that comes up Jim Crow. 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:15.600 If I'm talking about Michelle Alexander's new Gym Crow the book, 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:17.760 you gotta know what the old Gim Crow was. So 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:21.160 the pieces started to fit together where it became quite expansive, 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.760 a lot bigger than I originally bit off. I think 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:26.560 that's a beautiful thing about doc is it takes you 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:28.040 where it wants to go or it needs to go, 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.680 and you, as the filmmaker and the documentarian have to 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:33.880 just follow that. Yeah, well, you uh, you know, obviously 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:36.720 you studied African American studies in U. C. L A. 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:39.080 And so a lot of this stuff. It didn't feel 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:41.120 like to me like you said, Okay, I'm gonna go 0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:44.120 off and do this movie and you explored it. Felt 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:45.720 like you were ready to tell this story. And that 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:47.240 is what I mean, like you had it all ready 0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:50.640 to go and to explore and how to explore it. Uh. 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:54.680 That having been said, uh, was there anything when you 0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:58.000 got into it that you learned that was just like 0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:01.080 an arresting sort of thing you didn't really know? M 0:30:01.520 --> 0:30:03.720 I mean, yeah, the great thing about it is thank 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.120 you for that compliment that. The great thing about it 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:07.600 is I knew where I wanted to go. I think 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:12.560 a lot of the time spent um on documentaries about discovery, 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:14.920 but so much of it I knew, and I was 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:17.000 just ready to tell the story and wanting to see 0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:18.640 it all put together in this way, not like it 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:20.600 hasn't been told in other places, but a bit of 0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:22.600 it's here, a bit of it's there. And my thought was, well, 0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:24.840 if we could put it in one place, an overview, 0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:26.920 a primer for people that don't know anything about it 0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:29.160 or people that know it, and the pieces, but there's 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:31.640 something about seeing it all together. But within that what 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:33.960 I didn't know really anything about. I mean, I knew 0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:36.719 it wasn't good, but I didn't know the depths of 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:40.680 ALEC at the time that I was making the dock. Uh. 0:30:40.800 --> 0:30:42.840 And so as I was getting in there and talking 0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:48.200 about privatization in prison and um and uh, particularly the 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:51.440 companies that were profit profiting off of services inside of prison, 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:54.880 the phone calls that are made, the food, you know, 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.360 the health care services. Looking into those contracts, it led 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.880 me into ALEC. And and that was the hardest part 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.240 of the dock for me because I didn't know anything 0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:06.320 about it, so I couldn't use my best judgment, Oh 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:08.600 let's go look up this or let's tell them about this, 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:10.040 as I was able to do in other parts of 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:12.720 the dock. I was learning it from scratch, and I 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:15.360 really stumbled over It took me a long time to 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:18.800 a learn it myself enough so that I could share 0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:21.560 it with somebody else, and I went down a rabbit hole. 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.120 I mean, it's sidetracked me for like six months because 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:28.840 I was just messed up over alec UM. But but yeah, no, 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:31.320 it's it's startling that there's a shadowy group of people 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:35.720 who are not lawmakers, who are crafting our loss and 0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:37.800 that we abide by and that so many of us 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:39.960 are in prisoned under So it was important to be 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:41.840 in there and in that time, John Oliver did that 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:45.000 segment on it, so you can. Yes, I mean I 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.160 was so so struggling off of how to put that 0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:50.680 together and then that piece and I thought there's nothing 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:54.200 better than a little humor to lighten it up. Yeah, 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:58.640 it's staggering. Um. I wanted to talk about formal aspects 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:00.640 of the movie because something that's stuck out to me, 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:04.800 specifically framing and camera movement, uh, is that you frame 0:32:04.880 --> 0:32:07.760 your subjects a lot of the time just they seem 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:13.480 a little bit overwhelmed by their environment, the infrastructure, architectural elements, 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.360 you know, a vast brick wall, a large empty you 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:18.880 know building. Just there's something about how you're framing people 0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:21.320 within their space, and I just wanted to talk about that, 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:23.040 as well as the way you move your camera in 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:25.680 the movie, like how you wanted the visual storytelling to 0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:27.920 come across. Yeah, and I thank you for the question. 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.080 I really could ask that. Um My idea for the 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:35.880 just production design which sometimes I say production design and 0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:37.600 I'm talking to people about the dock, and I get 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:41.960 the eye roll, like, yeah, it's your production design where 0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:45.480 they sat when you wented to Cabra, But it really was. 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:47.800 And my whole idea was labor. I wanted all of 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:50.239 the kind of backdrops in the spaces within which they 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:53.320 were sitting and talking to me to denote labor. So 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:57.960 a lot of steel, brick and slate, glass, um stone 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.600 and um, you know of the space where we interview 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:05.880 Angela Davis for example, you know, an old abandoned train 0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:09.080 station in Oakland, so that you can see the decay 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:11.240 on the walls of this kind of grand structure to 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:15.320 concrete falling off. So that was the big idea behind it. 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.720 And then within that certainly, um you know, a camera 0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:20.720 that was wide so that we can kind of have 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:24.640 these spaces, which is what prison is. It's a space 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:28.640 that you're captured within. UM kind of give a feel 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:33.600 of a feeling of um captivity that they were kind 0:33:33.640 --> 0:33:37.120 of caught in my frame and unable to kind of move. 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:39.960 But then there's space. There were places where and I 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.680 went to juxtapose that were places where the analysts and 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:45.960 expert I was talking to were really able to break 0:33:46.000 --> 0:33:47.960 free of their space. And so that's why I set 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:50.840 up the three sixty dollar So there was a dolly 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:54.600 actually two eighty dollar that was moving around the subjects 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:57.680 and around me, behind my back and around me throughout 0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:03.120 all of the interviews. So static camera in multiple frame sizes. Uh, 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:06.200 and then the dolly, which I think there's a point 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.560 where we use the dolly more with people. UM. And 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.960 when we cut cut that in, it's really during moments 0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:14.479 where we want to underline or highlight what's being said. 0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:16.239 So anyway, it was great. I was in a Q 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:17.680 and A the other day, a community Q and A 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:19.800 and the lady was like, I love that floating camera 0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:22.400 and I was like, don't you love people watching movies. 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:25.920 It's like, ma'am, thank you, I appreciate it. It's like, 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:27.840 what do you call that? I said, you call it 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:37.520 a dolly? Man? I know, it's just it's lovely. Um. 0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:40.400 When did you decide to treat the word criminal the 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.640 way you did? Oh? That was the idea that came 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:47.319 probably midway through the process with my editor and great 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.280 friend Spencer Afric, who I shared the writing credit on 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.920 on this film. UM really wanted to just examine the 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:59.319 ways in which African Americans have been uh criminalized is 0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:02.080 through d humanization. And the way that you de humanize 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:05.879 is by calling people anything but human. And so whether 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:11.360 it's criminal, whether it's the N word, whether it's thug, 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.920 all of different ways that the media, the press, um, 0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:18.000 and you know, the society at large been affected by 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:22.160 these labels anything other than man or woman or human being. 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:25.520 And so it's important to to to play with those 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:29.200 those ideas throughout. And then the importance of music. You 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.640 have public enemy pops up, dead prayers, you've got the 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:36.400 King of Names songs. Just what was the importance of 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:39.080 music and telling the story? Well, my idea, my my 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:40.919 idea behind that was that that you know, the black 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:44.919 musical tradition has been one of protests around these very 0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:48.799 ideas of criminalization and de humanization of black people for 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:50.920 as long as we can remember, whether it's you know, 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:55.800 uh uh Negro spiritual so called Negro spirituals or protest 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:59.080 music during the Civil Rights movement are certainly hip hop. Um. 0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:01.560 We even have you know, a black opera singer and 0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:05.520 are our black composer Jason Moran doing some work with 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:09.560 the operatic voice around um with the Negro spiritual. So 0:36:09.600 --> 0:36:13.640 the idea that artists, that artists with a voice, from 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:17.080 Nina Simone to Chuck D have been talking about police, 0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:19.880 They've been talking about imprisonment, They've been talking about the 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:23.160 criminal justice issues throughout. I mean, there's so many songs 0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:25.360 we could have pulled from. We just didn't have the 0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:27.960 cash to you know, sull out for Marvin Gaye was 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:29.480 what's going on? You know what I mean? But I 0:36:29.480 --> 0:36:35.400 would have um great stuff. But so often artists have 0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.920 been on the forefront of narrating the experience, the black experience, 0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:42.280 specifically around these issues, and so I want to highlight 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:46.040 that a little. Chuck D. Listen, you can't go wrong 0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:51.520 with the check. I was definitely bobbing my head. Uh 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.640 you you were finishing this film up, you know, in 0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:57.000 kind of the home stretch of the election, and it 0:36:57.080 --> 0:37:00.480 started handing you stuff that you had to use. I mean, 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.840 obviously the Donald Trump segment that took off viral e 0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:06.600 right around the election where he's talking about the good 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:10.440 old days. When you're in the middle of making a 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:15.399 movie and the zeitgeist is so informing it in that 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.359 way as you're making it, like what does what does 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:21.520 that feel like. I mean, is it just like because 0:37:21.560 --> 0:37:23.320 you have to be, on one hand kind of caught 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:26.760 between this is a gift and this is still awful 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.200 like stuff that I'm having to deal with artistically. But 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:30.719 just what does that feel like when you're in the 0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:32.840 heat of something like that and everything is informing what 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:36.239 you're working on. Well, I've experienced it twice now, you know. 0:37:36.360 --> 0:37:39.840 With Yeah, with Someone we were right in the middle 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.920 of Mike Brown's murder and Ferguson and we were cutting 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:47.799 the summer, cutting Selma marches and beatings, the summer of 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:51.839 Ferguson marches and beatings, and we're trying to limit voting 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:54.920 rights that in that absolutely in that same time as well, 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:58.360 um and then certainly with the thirteenth, with everything happening 0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:00.120 with the with the campaign. I think that thing that 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:03.360 we've tried to show Spencer and I in both instances 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:06.759 is restraint and to really think about the pieces Evergreen 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:10.520 standing alone from whatever current trend or whatever is happening 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:12.399 in the current moment. I mean, there was no we 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:16.480 were determined not to cut Selma differently than we had 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.120 already planned, even though we were going home at night 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:22.080 and seeing images that we're bouncing off of what we 0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:24.960 had just cut, you know. Uh, And we were determined 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:28.719 in this very much so not to become engulfed in 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:31.239 all the election rhetoric. It would have been. It could 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:34.560 have been really easy to expand or dedicate a whole 0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:38.560 section to that fight. Um. And it was a fight. 0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:41.600 But then what would it have been in December or 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:43.880 January when you watch it, It would have been, you know, 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:47.080 tagged as something of that time, and all the information 0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:48.920 that has nothing to do with those two people, those 0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:51.600 two candidates would be lost in it. And so we 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:53.760 wanted to try to keep an eye on making it evergreen. 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:56.160 And so I've been satisfied with going back and watching 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:59.799 the dock after the election. Um, it resonates in a 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:02.480 differ way, but I'm not lost. It doesn't feel dated 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:07.120 because we did not kind of indulge in the low 0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:10.160 hanging fruit of you know, the sensational elements of the 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:12.960 campaign and beyond just the here and now. I mean, 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.919 they're both of them were candidates who have a history. Yeah, 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:18.520 that's what we embraced. It was just the fact that 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:21.359 they were a part of the story. Uh. So they 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:26.160 they they were they fell into the narrative naturally and authentically, 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:28.480 and they were always planned to be in it before 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:30.279 either emerged. I mean I was working on it for 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:35.080 two years, so before either emerged as the the nominee 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:38.120 for their party. Uh, they were in it, both of them, 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:40.680 and so we just stayed true to that and tried 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:44.720 not to kind of get to two of the moment 0:39:44.760 --> 0:39:46.799 with it. Yeah, and I thought it was very important too. 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:49.400 I mean, there's nothing partisan about it. The Clintons have 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:54.240 their their situation to deal with here with this source 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:57.200 or this subject matters. I think that one of the 0:39:57.200 --> 0:39:58.879 big things a couple of folks to that you should 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:00.920 have put that in there. It is Tailory and not 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:04.040 against Hilory. Uh. This is what she said. That's what 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:06.359 the lady said. This is what she said, and this 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:08.359 is what she said afterwards. She said it at one 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:11.200 point and later she said, you know, things have changed. 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:16.080 I regret that such and such. But the truth, uh 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:18.360 is that she said it, and it deserved a place 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:21.120 in there because those words and that thinking did impact 0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:23.719 what was happening at the time politically. Well. I think 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:27.640 the fact is it's history that needs to be learned from, uh, 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:29.759 which kind of brings me to my next question here. 0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:32.719 This issue of quote, law and order is very much back. 0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:36.040 As Trump says in your in their film, he says 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:39.840 he's the law and order candidate. Uh. The West Virginia 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.080 Senator recently Joe Manchin, said that the solution for his 0:40:43.120 --> 0:40:46.480 state's opioid epidemic was to declare a war on drugs, 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:50.680 which I think you responded to on Twitter. That sounded familiar. 0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:56.280 It's an outrageous statement and also kind of, you know, ironic, 0:40:56.360 --> 0:41:00.520 because the opioid epidemic is largely a white problem. My things. 0:41:01.120 --> 0:41:03.520 But Uh, I guess I have a question that I 0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:06.400 don't think anyone can really answer. I'm gonna ask you anyway, 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:12.840 why don't we learn these lessons? Uh, that's a great question, 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:18.040 I think because they're not pointed out often enough. It 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:20.680 feels new in the moment. If you don't know history. 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:23.120 That's why you know some or I was African American 0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.560 history major, you know, some are looking back their their 0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:30.239 lessons to be learned in the past. You hear you 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:33.359 know this this politician now talking about law and order. 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:36.640 And if you cannot connect that, if you cannot connect 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:39.080 what Trump says to what's been done before and the 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:41.839 ways in which those were that those words have been 0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:46.440 used to distort, you know, uh and and twist the 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:49.520 realities of millions of people, particularly people of color. Then 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:51.560 you have no context for being wrong, and there's nothing 0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:54.279 to learn. So it's so so important and I'm I'm 0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:56.840 just proud of the fact that int were just a 0:41:56.920 --> 0:41:59.520 reminding people this is not new, folks, there's none of 0:41:59.520 --> 0:42:01.239 this is new. I think a lot of folks now 0:42:01.800 --> 0:42:05.319 are um. I see like online, we're both online quite 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:08.359 a bit. I see a lot of people kind of 0:42:09.719 --> 0:42:12.120 trying to make connections, you know what I mean, trying 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.360 to pull things together in a way that we remind 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.399 ourselves where this kind of thinking leads us. Just saw 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.959 something the other day, the Smithsonian magazine's account talking about 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:25.160 how the press covered Mussolini, you know, looking back at 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.880 headlines like we've been here before, how did we react 0:42:27.920 --> 0:42:31.439 and how can we do better? And so um, I think, yeah, 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:33.480 that's the that's the first way to kind of combat 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.760 these things is to know that that we're in a continuum. 0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:39.120 I mean, there's multiple issues at play too. It's like 0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:42.000 we're also at this point now where people either believe 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:45.400 everything they read largely from the wrong sources, or they 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:50.319 believe nothing that they read because uh, it's just it's 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.879 not an informed populace. And uh, it never really has been, 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:57.040 and I don't know if it ever will be. The 0:42:57.040 --> 0:43:01.800 press is more under fire today than ever in that regard. 0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:06.800 So yeah, yeah, it's complicated, complicated times. There were a 0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:08.960 couple of specific things I wanted to ask about in 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:12.919 the film with certain subjects, like Charles Range when when 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:16.560 he's he seemed to not really get it when he 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:20.839 was talking about to just say no campaign. Was that frustrating? Well, 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:24.280 you know, he represented, um, black politicians at the time 0:43:24.520 --> 0:43:28.960 who were in favor of the you know, drug policies, 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:32.720 particularly in Clinton with Clinton and Reagan's administration that really 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.239 in the end it damaged to black and brown communities. Um. 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.319 But at that time, as he says it was, there 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:41.480 was an epidemic, there was a lot of fear in 0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:44.319 the black community that was being stoked by these politicians 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:47.160 to get what they wanted. And uh, and so he 0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:49.960 was a part of it. Um. I think, you know, 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:51.759 one of the things that I was happy that he 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:56.160 said on cameras that he was wrong, um, and that 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:58.720 it didn't work out like he like it was promised. 0:43:58.760 --> 0:44:00.440 I mean, I think in a lot of ways, and 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:03.000 I think he's done a lot for the black community 0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:06.520 in his district and his state, But at that time 0:44:06.719 --> 0:44:10.240 he was used, you know what I mean, he was used, um, 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.000 and promises were made that that were against the interests 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:15.080 of the very communities he was trying to protect, and 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:18.600 so um. This is also something that's continued to happen, 0:44:18.719 --> 0:44:22.400 particularly around black politicians. And you know, it takes the 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:27.280 diligent kind of politician that wants to educate themselves, especially 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:29.480 if you're black, brown, or otherwise, to make sure that 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:33.000 you're not the pond. This time, Yeah, and the new 0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:37.600 Gingrich had some disarmingly reasonable things to say. I know, 0:44:38.040 --> 0:44:40.880 I had faith in I mean, and like, I don't know. 0:44:40.920 --> 0:44:42.520 It was interesting. A couple of things came out of 0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:47.359 that interview. One, I was struck by how small my 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:51.120 own circle is in that it was startling to me 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:53.360 to sit across from someone who had this the radically 0:44:53.360 --> 0:44:55.000 different point of view than I am, Like just for 0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:57.760 me personally, I thought, wow, I should know more people 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:00.400 in my life, like as a black woman, I will 0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:03.560 you know, easily kind of slap the hand or criticize 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:07.520 white people who don't know any black people. Right, It's like, dude, 0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:13.080 get a life in their personal life. Um. But I'm 0:45:13.120 --> 0:45:15.560 you know, a liberal who don't who does not know 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:19.360 any conservatives. Like if I wanted to have some conservatives 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:21.520 over my home, they would be strangers walking into my 0:45:21.560 --> 0:45:24.359 house to have a conversation. And that's not healthy either. 0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:26.520 We need to be able to expand you know, are 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:30.160 are who we're talking to on a daily basis. Um. 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:32.719 And so that was one thing that struck me as 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:35.920 I was talking about to all these conservatives interviewed over 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:37.640 twenty for the doc. There's a lot of people we 0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:40.759 don't identify, we don't say they're liberal conservative. And a 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:43.080 lot of these people in the prison reform they sound 0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:46.799 quote unquote liberal because they're saying to do away with 0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:48.840 with prison as it is now. But many of the 0:45:48.880 --> 0:45:52.960 people I talked to our conservatives. Um. And Anyway, it 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:54.719 was startling to me to sit down with someone like 0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:57.400 Newt and hear him say those things. I've been talking 0:45:57.440 --> 0:46:00.920 that way in smaller circles for a while, so I 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:02.560 knew what I was going to get if I can 0:46:02.560 --> 0:46:08.879 get to it. But um, I've also kind of done 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:10.759 a double take with some of the stuff that's coming 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:12.680 out now from him. I was going to say, how 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:15.920 do you reconcile? I can't where he is, I can't reconcile, 0:46:15.960 --> 0:46:18.640 and I just I don't know. I mean, I just 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:22.600 I one of them is disingenuous, you know, one of them. 0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:24.279 One of them is not right. You weren't telling the 0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:26.480 truth somewhere, because there's no way you can hold those 0:46:26.520 --> 0:46:28.600 two points of view and be saying, do you have 0:46:28.640 --> 0:46:31.440 a line into him? What my new column be like 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:35.880 new what's going on? Yeah? No, it's it's it's um, 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:41.600 I'm I'm interested in knowing myself. Yeah, Van Jones and Jones. 0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:45.319 He's fairly it's interesting. I'll let you ask. The question 0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:48.960 stands out as a as a dominant voice in the film, 0:46:49.000 --> 0:46:51.160 I think, and certainly after this year and the voice 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:54.480 he's had on on TV. When I can stomach CNN, 0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:57.040 he is one of the few things that I can 0:46:57.120 --> 0:47:01.200 stomach to that because everything is like, I can't. Someone 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:02.759 took a dump on Trump star, Let's go to our 0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:06.200 CNN panel. Yeah, I can't, what is that? But anyway, 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:09.600 what kind of uh? He's interesting to me, and I'm 0:47:09.600 --> 0:47:12.360 curious about his future as a journalistic voice, Like what 0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:13.960 do you think, I'm excited about it. When I first 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:16.120 said that, I've known him for a little bit. I 0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.640 saw him doing some stuff on stand in for Selma 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:24.279 the march that the President participated in the fiftieth anniversary, 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:26.719 and I reached out to him just to say, you know, 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:29.000 I love what he had said, and so we stayed 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:30.480 in touch, and when I asked him to do this, 0:47:30.560 --> 0:47:33.560 he first came into the interview and he was He's 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:36.040 not the van we know now. I mean, he's always 0:47:36.040 --> 0:47:38.319 been brilliant, but he was very when he first sat down. 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:44.440 The interview was very I don't know, um, are you talking? 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:47.840 Point like he because he's talked about this stuff so much. 0:47:47.880 --> 0:47:50.880 He travels the country talking about prison reform and his 0:47:50.880 --> 0:47:54.560 his organization cut fifty and so I just turned off 0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:55.920 the camera for a second. I said, I just I 0:47:55.960 --> 0:48:00.320 just need you to talk to us. And me like, okay, 0:48:01.360 --> 0:48:03.759 we're just home. He's hanging out, like really tell me 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:07.400 the real real deal, like in the non TV voice, 0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:10.680 like really give it to us. He was like okay, 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.480 and it just this amazing interview came out where he 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:18.759 really is. He shines because he kind of and now 0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:21.719 I see that guy more on national team and not 0:48:21.840 --> 0:48:24.600 saying that we did it, but he's embracing something where 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:26.680 his voice is so clear right now. It's one of 0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:29.920 the few points of clarity I think on the airwaves 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:33.640 that I'm just thrilled with it and excited for him. Brilliant, 0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:37.440 brilliant guy and a big public intellectual that I'm glad 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:39.400 we have his his voice out there, and I'm so 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:42.240 happy that we were able to capture in that particular 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:44.640 interview we shot that. It was one of our later ones. 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:54.080 We shot that, Uh, probably in the spring of last year. Yeah, yeah, Uh, 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:57.680 strange question, but you know, we gotta get our our 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:02.320 everything together here. Who should care? Who should lead the 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:10.160 Democratic Party? Okay, I don't do you even have an answer? 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.040 Is it an unfair question? I just I shake my head. 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:17.319 It is. Um. The whole thing is such a disappointment, uh, 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:22.759 from top to bottom, from all sides. I just I 0:49:22.800 --> 0:49:27.719 can't believe there's no strong voice of dissent. There's no 0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:31.600 I mean, I can't tell you there's no one that 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.439 I'm looking at. You know, that's how that's been strong 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:37.120 enough that's at the backbone that's been Someone will emerge. 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:41.600 I'm confident. I can only pray that someone will emerge. 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:45.200 It has to, because this kind of apathetic kind of 0:49:45.239 --> 0:49:48.439 just it's just it's just the responses at this point. 0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:51.239 It's been weak in my view to a very very 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:56.640 It's something that deserves a strong opposition. Um and uh. 0:49:57.000 --> 0:49:59.399 I can't see who it is now. I hope someone 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:03.200 emerges sooner than later. Who do you think people talk 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:07.080 about Gavin Newsom a lot. I mean, he's very What 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:09.759 was the joke someone made recently, Bill Maher said he 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:12.560 looks like he's out of central casting, which is true. 0:50:12.880 --> 0:50:16.360 I mean he looks a little yeah, but he's he's 0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:19.040 been opening his mouth. Somebody's got to I mean he's 0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:21.360 been certainly in this state, which is at the forefront 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:25.239 of progressive he's been a very great leader for that. 0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:27.839 So I don't know. He stands out as a possibility. 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:31.359 But I don't know, man. I mean when I think 0:50:31.400 --> 0:50:33.200 when you said leader of the party, I'm thinking of 0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:35.879 someone that's within striking distance of doing that. I mean, 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:38.840 I mean he's a great someone, a long way to 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:41.319 go to get there. I'm just who is right there 0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:43.800 to take it, you know, the people that are standing 0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:47.600 right there just you know, yeah, not not not doing it. Yeah, 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:51.120 I don't know. There's certainly a lot of depression to 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:53.200 go around it. Absolutely every want to snap out of 0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:55.560 it in the new year. Yeah, I think I'll just 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:58.560 say this. I really think it's going to be. And 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:01.000 I was talking to a friend about this. It's going 0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:03.880 to be. The power of the image is one that 0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:07.800 we all know as people who love film and practice 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:13.600 film is a striking emotional thing. And when he lifts 0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.960 his hand, puts his hand on that Bible and takes 0:51:16.960 --> 0:51:20.400 that oath and we see the image, I really I 0:51:20.840 --> 0:51:23.960 pray that that is a thing that shakes us out 0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:26.280 of the stupor like this is like a bad reality 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.719 show and it's not real, or something's going to happen 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:31.960 and turn it all around, because then it's done. And 0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:35.520 I'm dreading the image, but it is coming and it 0:51:35.640 --> 0:51:39.319 is real. And Obama. I was there the day that 0:51:39.480 --> 0:51:43.520 Bush took off in air for or Marine one at 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:46.719 the inauguration and Obama was there raising his hand and 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.120 this is gonna be Obama taking off a Marine one. 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:55.160 And who's left this guy raising his hand and walking 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:58.600 into that house and living there maybe if you decide, 0:51:59.719 --> 0:52:02.680 or making New York at nightmare exactly. So it's it's 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:06.000 you know, I think just for for you know, in 0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:09.880 terms of the storytelling that people are telling themselves. You know, 0:52:09.960 --> 0:52:12.880 that image is going to be a powerful one that 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:15.719 this country either we'll descend into a full on depression 0:52:15.800 --> 0:52:17.920 or will really shake some people out of their stupor. 0:52:18.560 --> 0:52:20.440 I think mainly people need to realize there's nothing that's 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:23.080 gonna bail us out in the next three weeks two weeks. 0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:25.960 It's like, you know, the electors, that wasn't gonna happen, 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:28.319 and none of these things are going to happen, like 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:32.440 this is it, this is it? And uh, impeachment maybe maybe, 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:35.680 but you know everybody seems to beginning in line, so probably. 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:42.000 All right, let's let's uh, this is a depressing conversation, Christopher, 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:47.400 let's talk about wrinkle. How's that going okay to be detailed? No, 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:49.640 no, no no, but let me tell you this is my 0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:56.560 life thirteen and trump. You know, bad feelings, and then 0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.760 I get to go in and just work on Wrinkle, 0:52:59.880 --> 0:53:03.120 and my whole mood just changes because I get to 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:08.920 create creatures and deal with beautiful children and great actors 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:13.360 and costumes and just it's a self care moment, a 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:15.960 little escape. I do, I really do, because at that 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.640 making thirteenth and like, you know, editing a thousand hours 0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:23.279 of racist, violent footage and like trying to wrap my 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:26.680 mind around all these really complex issues about dehumanization in 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:29.880 the ways that we oppress each other. Um took a toll, 0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:34.440 you know, right after Selma. It was just like lady comes, 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.680 you know, just sit back and relax a little bit. 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:39.040 And so That's what I've been doing with this. I 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:42.120 mean not relaxing. It's obviously intense, but the subject matter 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:45.080 itself is not harmful to my heart every time I 0:53:45.120 --> 0:53:48.040 go home, and so I've been enjoying it. Did the 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.080 scale of this projects? Have you just taken that in stride? 0:53:51.160 --> 0:53:53.400 Is it? Yeah? I love it? I I people always 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:55.120 ask me that, like I'm about to break in half, 0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:57.200 but I mean, I mean not like you did. But 0:53:57.560 --> 0:53:59.560 I was like, yeah, of course, I mean, it's it's 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:01.359 making a fuel, but it's making a movie. I Mean. 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:03.359 The one thing that I've I've really learned from it 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:07.719 is there's never enough money or time. The day is 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:10.240 going to end, the sun is going to go down. 0:54:10.520 --> 0:54:13.239 It does not matter what's on your getn't make it 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:15.719 or you didn't. And it's the same if I'm making 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:18.920 my first film, phone were're making this film. It's like 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:20.839 the bottom line you have to look after in the eye. 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:22.400 You have to get the truth of the performance. You 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:25.400 have to understand that story, and you have to do 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:27.680 it in a certain amount of daylight hours or not. 0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:30.680 And all the bells and whistles around it have been 0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:33.200 really lovely. You know. I was able to hand pick 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.879 my crew. Disney was fantastic, and that I was able 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:38.960 top to bottom to put together the people around me 0:54:39.040 --> 0:54:43.040 who made me comfortable, who were like minded, forward thinking, 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:46.920 and who had no problem being directed by a woman. 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:51.719 And um so it's been just a beautiful experience and 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:58.200 quite um I can't swim. I can't swim, like me personally, 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:02.120 but it's like just because I haven't. It's like a kid, 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:04.279 like when you put a baby in the pool, right, 0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:05.759 I think you're about to tell me some story about 0:55:05.760 --> 0:55:12.360 how you fell into some water. That's a metaphoric analogy, 0:55:12.480 --> 0:55:15.719 if that is such a term. But yeah, you put 0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:19.400 a baby who could swim, and you put her in 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:23.080 the pool and the baby just swims. I'm told I'm 0:55:23.080 --> 0:55:26.080 like a baby in the pool. I've never slam, but 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:30.440 I'm swimming and um it feels good, awesome. Well, hopefully 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:31.959 we can get you back in here to talk about 0:55:32.000 --> 0:55:35.400 that when it comes out. I hope so. And uh. 0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:37.359 In the meantime, like I said, if you didn't watch 0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:41.600 it when we told you to go, yeah, press pause 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:45.799 on this and go to Netflix a laptop app that 0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:48.280 you can watch. You to take your fingertips, do it. Ava, 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:51.000 Thanks for coming on the show. I was like talking 0:55:51.000 --> 0:56:06.120 to you all right. Thanks. Thanks for listening everyone. Remember 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:08.680 to subscribe and check back next week. You've been listening 0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:21.040 to Playback at Variety once again. This episode of Playback 0:56:21.080 --> 0:56:23.080 has been brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. With 0:56:23.160 --> 0:56:25.279 Sully selected as one of the best films of the 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:28.759 Year by a f I based on Captain Sully Sullenberger's 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:32.440 Unforgettable Landing on the Hudson River, directed by Clint Eastwood, 0:56:32.560 --> 0:56:35.839 Produced by Clint Eastwood, Frank Marshall, Alan Stewart and Tim Moore, 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:40.799 starring Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, and Laura Lenney. For your consideration, 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:41.799 in all categories,