Speaker 1: This episode of Playback is brought to you by Warner
Speaker 1: Brothers Pictures, with Sully selected as one of the best
Speaker 1: films of the Year by a f I based on
Speaker 1: Captain Sully Sullenberger's Unforgettable Landing on the Hudson River, directed
Speaker 1: by Clint Eastwood, Produced by Clint Eastwood, Frank Marshall, Alan
Speaker 1: Stewart and Tim Moore, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, and
Speaker 1: Laura Lenny. For your consideration in all categories, Welcome to Playback,
Speaker 1: a Variety podcast on your host, Variety Awards Editor Chris Tapley.
Speaker 1: On today's show, we talked about the recent w g
Speaker 1: A nominations and the upcoming Golden Globes, as well as
Speaker 1: a few suggestions for Academy members receiving the ballast This week.
Speaker 1: A little bit later, are we talking to thirteenth director
Speaker 1: Ava Duverney. So stick around. Alright, folks, I'm here again
Speaker 1: with Janelle Riley. Welcome. We're in the year that will
Speaker 1: be better than two thousand sixteen. Everyone thing it has
Speaker 1: to be. It has to be. No. Look like, nine
Speaker 1: days into the year, my dog died, I mean, come
Speaker 1: on you, yeah, and then it just proceeded to go
Speaker 1: downhill from there. I no longer have a dog, so
Speaker 1: therefore has to be better be careful what you assume?
Speaker 1: That's true. I am that crazy person who like will
Speaker 1: probably end up with twelve dogs by the end of
Speaker 1: the year. Uh, we're fresh out of palm springs. Yes, fresh,
Speaker 1: I am like with the opposite of fresh. I am
Speaker 1: worn down and tired. Did I tell you by the
Speaker 1: way that my hair dryer caught fire as I was
Speaker 1: using it. I had a lot of problems with my
Speaker 1: hotel room, and that was just the icing on the
Speaker 1: kid I got there. Your room wasn't ready. I wasn't
Speaker 1: ready you. I was shuttling between two different rooms because
Speaker 1: the shower wasn't working. Literally like trudging a suit case
Speaker 1: across these beautiful grounds that I'm sure look great in
Speaker 1: the morning, but when it's one o'clock in the morning
Speaker 1: and there's no signs and no light. And then I
Speaker 1: pumped into Amy Adams, also in sweatpants and yet somehow
Speaker 1: looking red carpet ready, and I'm like, oh God, don't
Speaker 1: recognize me, don't recognize me? And champagne problem. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's so funny. I wasn't going to name the hotel
Speaker 1: I will. Okay, Well, it wasn't their fault, it was.
Speaker 1: It was just a confluence of yeah, and it's the
Speaker 1: grounds are beautiful, they do our brunch. It's such a
Speaker 1: lovely event. But yes, as my friends were yelling at
Speaker 1: me the other day, these aren't real problems, Janelle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was the annual Pump Springs Gallo Wards Gallo Annual.
Speaker 1: I think have they been doing the actual gallow I
Speaker 1: don't know because I'm twenty two, so it's way before
Speaker 1: my time. You didn't have to laugh. I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: didn't have to. Do you think? Do you think I have?
Speaker 1: Very good, very nice? Yeah? So they had their annual gala,
Speaker 1: big packed room of all the Palm Springs locals. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is where we get to name drop that we
Speaker 1: were at the coolest table in the room. We were
Speaker 1: at a good one. Ryan Gosling Andrew Garfield, who I
Speaker 1: threw off. I don't know if you noticed that. He
Speaker 1: uh he got up to go accept his award and
Speaker 1: I got up to go to another table to talk
Speaker 1: to somebody, And so as he was coming back, he
Speaker 1: went to sit down at that table and he was like, wait,
Speaker 1: you moved funny walk across to get to his table.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was a very nice table. Ryan Gosling
Speaker 1: stands whenever a woman returns to her seat, gentlemen, so
Speaker 1: just set the bar even higher. I was just like, really, dude,
Speaker 1: do you have to made me look so bad? But
Speaker 1: that that events, it's a little taxing. I think it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's a long night. It's a long night, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a lot of people, and honestly, some of them
Speaker 1: are just uncouth. I mean taking pictures of people in bathrooms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's just the bathroom. Really, my first year
Speaker 1: attending there, I just had the worst taste in my
Speaker 1: mouth ever since this couple left from the table and
Speaker 1: then they come back and the guys like holding up
Speaker 1: or the girls holding up her camera like check it
Speaker 1: out Angelina Jolie in the bathroom. Wow, God, get me
Speaker 1: out of here. Okay? Is that really any different from
Speaker 1: the you know, twenty five events we have here? Though
Speaker 1: throughout this little I've always felt this a little sweaty there. Actually, really,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I guess they don't. It's
Speaker 1: like there one time a year where they get these
Speaker 1: big star studded thing and people show up in their
Speaker 1: tuxes to do this Hollywood event. Well, apparently there's a
Speaker 1: lot of Academy voters in Palm Springs. I've been told. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's it's smart, yes, no doubt, and anything you
Speaker 1: do in Santa Barb. But there's like two voters up there.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's reasons that these things are yeah, strategically positioned.
Speaker 1: This year. I don't even remember the winners at this
Speaker 1: point because all of these awards shows. It's funny because
Speaker 1: they gave awards to just for example, like Natalie Portman
Speaker 1: and Annette Benning and Nicole Kidman, so they can't just
Speaker 1: call it the Actress Award. They have to make up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the desert poems like let's get everybody in here, which
Speaker 1: again is smart, and poor Emma Stone was sick with
Speaker 1: strap throat. You couldn't be there for the Vanguard Award
Speaker 1: with Justin Hurwitz and Damien Chazelle and Ryan Goslin who
Speaker 1: all accepted. And we're like, she's better by the Oscars
Speaker 1: because I'm sure she'll sing sing. Hopefully she's better this
Speaker 1: weekend in time for the Golden Globes to win. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's really not really a bold I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: who's nominated against here. To be honest, do you think
Speaker 1: we kind of talked about globes with some predictions. There
Speaker 1: are some reader questions a few weeks ago, but anything crazy.
Speaker 1: I mean, it will probably be Emma Stone for actress
Speaker 1: in a comedy musical. I assume I'm guessing Natalie Portman
Speaker 1: for Jackie and drama. Um, look at this point, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to think Ryan Reynolds will win for Deadpool because
Speaker 1: Deadpool just keeps racking up nominations and win and like,
Speaker 1: look at your face right now. Writer's Guild Awards Wednesday morning,
Speaker 1: and uh, these people need to see more movies that
Speaker 1: they depend on screeners, which is a problem and not
Speaker 1: completely their fault. I want to be writers. They can't
Speaker 1: pay to see the movie, but I want to be
Speaker 1: fair because the way the timeline is, the way the
Speaker 1: calendar is structured now everyone pretty much depends on their screeners.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the big misses was hax
Speaker 1: all Ridge did not send screeners. Um, such a shame.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, decisions have to be made early on
Speaker 1: who can prioritize. For instance, d G A received taxall screeners.
Speaker 1: I expect Gibson to show up there, but I think
Speaker 1: he'll chopping the oscars too. Yeah, me too. And Captain Fantastic,
Speaker 1: you know was a possibility for original they sent out
Speaker 1: digital screeners. I'm told I don't know if that matters
Speaker 1: quite the same though. I mean, I personally don't have
Speaker 1: a problem with it, but there are some people who
Speaker 1: have this bias about watching it on their computer, which
Speaker 1: is silly. Don't we watch everything on iPads? Now? I
Speaker 1: mean maybe it's sacrilegic. I do not have this problem
Speaker 1: of watching something on my laptop. Um. But Deadpool is
Speaker 1: apparently a better screenplay than Love and Friendship Silent, which
Speaker 1: they probably didn't see fair enough. Yeah, that's my guess. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, Hack's all Ridge, just there's a littany a
Speaker 1: bigger Splash, for instance, which I think was one of
Speaker 1: the years. Do you. Um, I don't have a problem
Speaker 1: with this, and I know the w g A they
Speaker 1: actually you know, they gave a nomination to Guardians of
Speaker 1: the Galaxy. They tend to be friendly and that's true. Uh,
Speaker 1: but Deadpool, I mean, I know, I'm I'm a slagging
Speaker 1: on the movie or on our cover this week, and
Speaker 1: that's what's hilarious. But like, and the movie is fun,
Speaker 1: but they're and and it made a ton of money,
Speaker 1: and maybe people are worshiping that a little bit. I
Speaker 1: just that's that's slightly embarrassing to me. I don't have
Speaker 1: a problem with it. I don't know. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't think the dead of all the
Speaker 1: things that I liked about Deadpool, I don't know that
Speaker 1: the script was, you know, so groundbreaking or original. But
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with it being nominated, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there there might be things I find worthier.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to rack my brain right now. This is
Speaker 1: where I embarrassingly admit I haven't seen love and friendship. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's you're apparently not alone. But uh yeah,
Speaker 1: so now people are thinking, hey, it's it's deadpooling Oscar possibility. No,
Speaker 1: I make up, but I really think that's it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess what if Brian Reynolds gets in for Best Actor.
Speaker 1: I'd be dumbfounded. Really, I mean, I love the guy.
Speaker 1: It's a great little performance. He was made for the role. Look,
Speaker 1: I grew up reading Deadpool comics like this is in
Speaker 1: my wheelhouse. I get it, but like its services that
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything. There's also this narrative behind
Speaker 1: it about like how long it took to get made
Speaker 1: and how they had to you know, fight for that
Speaker 1: and yeah, and then the movie makes a ton of
Speaker 1: money and does all this does as well as it's doing,
Speaker 1: and then get rid of the director for the next movie.
Speaker 1: Like what's the buzz on that? I don't know anything
Speaker 1: about it. I just think that when you have a
Speaker 1: formula and it worked and you cut off the head,
Speaker 1: that's curious. But I don't know any Maybe we should
Speaker 1: get justin crawled down here and talk. I you want
Speaker 1: to point out that, um, the writers, as credited in
Speaker 1: the Deadpool credits are the real heroes. So if Deadpool wins,
Speaker 1: I guess does do they announce the award goes to
Speaker 1: the real heroes? Really? Like in the movie, remember the
Speaker 1: opening credits. The other thing this movie has stuck around,
Speaker 1: it's almost a year and it's it's I mean, kudos
Speaker 1: to Fox. I mean they knew they wanted to do
Speaker 1: this kind of irreverent like we're in to an Oscar
Speaker 1: campaign and really, what else did they have? Until Hidden
Speaker 1: Figures came along, which I'm so happy got into w
Speaker 1: j A Yes Yes and opens this weekend wide. I
Speaker 1: think it's going to be huge. I took my whole
Speaker 1: family went to see it, and it was like my
Speaker 1: nephew aged thirteen, and my father aged seventy three, Like
Speaker 1: everybody loved it and just had these giant smiles. The
Speaker 1: one movie my mom was asking about when she was
Speaker 1: really she was like, have you heard about this movie?
Speaker 1: I love when my parents said, hey, have you heard
Speaker 1: anything about this movie that you've been talking about for
Speaker 1: the last three months. If my mom always gets the
Speaker 1: titles wrong, it's all is like figured, well, you know
Speaker 1: the running joke with my dad and Hugh Jackman, he
Speaker 1: it's Hugh Jackman is his favorite actor, but he can
Speaker 1: never remember his name, And when I reminded him that
Speaker 1: it's Hugh Jackman, he says, Stu Jackson. And I told
Speaker 1: the story to Hugh Jackman at one point and he said,
Speaker 1: in your father's defense, Hugh Jackman is a weird name.
Speaker 1: It isn't interesting. Loving and Moonlight were nominated in Original
Speaker 1: correct Adapted by the Academy. They'll be adapted by the
Speaker 1: Academy so that opens up room for Captain fantastic I'm
Speaker 1: hoping yeah, and presumably. Well the other thing is there's
Speaker 1: other guilds this week, So could dead Pool be a
Speaker 1: PGA nominee? I mean seven fifty million dollars? Like, I
Speaker 1: think there was a time where that could have happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, the PGA used to nominate movies like Harry
Speaker 1: Potter the first one, and they did. Wow, I didn't
Speaker 1: know that. That was back when they had five alive
Speaker 1: in as we've established, if anything, you were in your diapers. Yes, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: they used to nominate just five in that year. It
Speaker 1: was Shrek and Harry Potter actually get out. Since then,
Speaker 1: they've expanded it to ten. They've they've opened up an
Speaker 1: animated category, and they've like merged with other groups, so
Speaker 1: it's just a completely different organization. Really, can you be
Speaker 1: nominated for Best Film by PGA but also in animated
Speaker 1: or oh? Interesting? Not that I don't believe. So well,
Speaker 1: it's the everyone gets an award, Yeah, exactly exactly. But
Speaker 1: what do you think anything with these guilts coming up
Speaker 1: to Like with p g A, for instance, I think
Speaker 1: I've been a little down on Arrival's chances of people
Speaker 1: are like, what the hell's wrong with you? And I
Speaker 1: just look, I just know. I mean it's it's honestly
Speaker 1: odd to me that it's doing well. I'm thrilled, but
Speaker 1: you know, I think you used the Nightcrawler comparison. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the dragon tattoo. Maybe. I mean it's just this hip
Speaker 1: thing that will appeal to young members and guilds. But
Speaker 1: I don't. But someone someone made a point to me
Speaker 1: that the difference here is there's a very emotional component's
Speaker 1: arrival yal yeah, yeah, And it's such a good adaptation.
Speaker 1: I know I've been like flogging this for a while
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but you know, having read the short story
Speaker 1: it's based on, it is like a textbook definition of
Speaker 1: a great adaptation, you know, being very true to the
Speaker 1: source material in some way, but making it its own thing.
Speaker 1: I just, um, I don't know how his name is pronounced,
Speaker 1: but Eric heiss er Heiser. If I just say it
Speaker 1: really fast, I messed up. Uh what was I gonna say?
Speaker 1: Va Villaineuve? I think villain who was going to get
Speaker 1: it for d g A I hope. So, I mean
Speaker 1: it just makes sense for them to nominate him, and
Speaker 1: he came around late in the game good ultimately because
Speaker 1: he was doing Blade Runner. I think if there's like
Speaker 1: any PGA surprises, I would love for it to be
Speaker 1: something like Captain Fantastic. Um. I think Hidden Figures is in.
Speaker 1: We've always been pretty secure about that one. I think
Speaker 1: that'll be that sort of the American Sniper story where um,
Speaker 1: you know, didn't do so well leading up to the Oscars.
Speaker 1: But I'm still holding out hope for Geroggie. I think
Speaker 1: you know, look, they haven't really I think the surprising
Speaker 1: thing was missing the editing nomination. I kind of thought
Speaker 1: that that was and for me, Tom Hanks failing to
Speaker 1: get a Golden Globe or Sagnam, like, literally, what does
Speaker 1: his man have to do? You know, they showed certainly
Speaker 1: golden Globe, yet they showed a clip package for him
Speaker 1: at Palm Springs. By the way, he was the bell
Speaker 1: of the ball. He introduced Natalie Portman, gave an amazing speech,
Speaker 1: Andrew Garfield gave him a big shout out. Then he uh,
Speaker 1: you know, accepted his Icon Award. I guess it's called
Speaker 1: and uh you know, they showed this clip package and
Speaker 1: there was it's like I forget, like some of these
Speaker 1: movies that Tom Hanks did. I still don't know how
Speaker 1: he missed for Captain Phillips after that last infuriates me.
Speaker 1: It's just like what happened that he was every he
Speaker 1: worked hard, that he that he doesn't want it. Well,
Speaker 1: he got doubly burned because he was also excellent and
Speaker 1: saving Mr Banks. Yeah, but maybe you know, maybe, look,
Speaker 1: nobody's feeling sorry for Tom Hanks. Having would be the
Speaker 1: first to say it. Probably. I love that he just
Speaker 1: seems to be having the best time wherever he goes.
Speaker 1: He's just he's being Tom Hanks. He will win an
Speaker 1: Emmy for David S. Pumpkins though that there is there
Speaker 1: a place where you can nominate something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's in the I guess Catagoris. I think justin timber
Speaker 1: Lake might have one that bring it on down to
Speaker 1: whatever that sketch you Yeah, oh, I know it's hilarious. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: I think it was the year of blank in a box.
Speaker 1: He come on, I am a lady. I am a
Speaker 1: young lady of twenty two who does not speak. What
Speaker 1: else should we cover? I feel like there's not a
Speaker 1: lot to say for a few weeks here. What do
Speaker 1: you think will Happen at the Globe's and Best Actor
Speaker 1: for a Drama. I mean, I don't know Casey Denzel,
Speaker 1: there's a part of me maybe a the pipe dream
Speaker 1: I'm reading for Vigo as well. Um, I feel like
Speaker 1: they'll probably get in line with Casey. But I do
Speaker 1: think that Manchester is like not fully their cup of tea,
Speaker 1: and they kind of like we should probably nominate it, right,
Speaker 1: And they also want to match up with the Oscars
Speaker 1: so they can say they are predictors. So but I
Speaker 1: don't know how true that is though, Like you don't
Speaker 1: want people. It's not like they get together in a
Speaker 1: room and say, Okay, we gotta get the Oscars correct.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I think that's exactly what I
Speaker 1: really do. I think that they're nominally Aaron Taylor Johnson
Speaker 1: for Nocturnal Animals. No. I think like the nominations can
Speaker 1: be a little out there, but ultimately they want to
Speaker 1: give it to the person who's going to win the
Speaker 1: Oscar so that they can say, you know, we've predicted
Speaker 1: the Oscar winners, and you know, it makes it a
Speaker 1: bigger deal. It makes people, you know, want to be
Speaker 1: nominated more campaign more go to the go to the show.
Speaker 1: What I've always said about the Globes is it's it's
Speaker 1: a stellar marketing opportunity. That's what it is. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's they're the one show this where the critics choice
Speaker 1: dropped the ball this year. They're the one show in
Speaker 1: the middle of voting, right, so uh it makes them
Speaker 1: more relevant and uh, you know, it presents all of
Speaker 1: that marketing capital for you to to spend. So it's
Speaker 1: it's you know, it is Oscar voting open right now? Yes,
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, this morning ballots went out. Anything that
Speaker 1: you want to make sure, like if any voters are listening, like,
Speaker 1: please put this screener in consider this person. Anything. Have
Speaker 1: you heard of this movie called La La Land I
Speaker 1: just turned into on the radar. No sorry, I did
Speaker 1: a La La lan q and A with Ryan Goslin
Speaker 1: last night, and I have to reiterate um, because the
Speaker 1: movie is fun and to some extent lighthearted. I don't
Speaker 1: know if people really appreciate the hard hard work these
Speaker 1: actors did, I mean not just learning to in his case,
Speaker 1: play the piano, singing and dancing. But gosh, I just
Speaker 1: kept thinking, you know this, this movie looks like a
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars, but it was shot it's more us
Speaker 1: an independent movie to some degree between and thirty. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but like I just kept thinking, like, you know, they
Speaker 1: do these long takes, they're losing light. You know, nobody
Speaker 1: wants to be the person who, like you've just completed
Speaker 1: a big musical number shot in one take and you
Speaker 1: sneeze and blow the tag or something. You would like
Speaker 1: to remind Academy voters of the movie that is likely
Speaker 1: to receive about thirty nominate. I would like to remind
Speaker 1: them of the performances and not to take them for
Speaker 1: granted a lot of time. Um, so you think Emma
Speaker 1: and Ryan will win? Oh no, I'm talking about nominations. See,
Speaker 1: but like every year there's a big shocker that's left off,
Speaker 1: and I could see, like, you know, like what if
Speaker 1: Ryan gets left off? That often happens yet because of
Speaker 1: people taking things for granted, Like, oh, Ben Affleck is safe,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna vote for Ben's Bene Ben Dozens. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: could have chosen people two different names. That Ben and
Speaker 1: Ben was very in my mind. I saw Ben spelled
Speaker 1: b e h n, so I knew our listeners are smart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they are very smart. Um, I think, uh, you know again,
Speaker 1: not it's not a dark horse per se, but hidden figures.
Speaker 1: Kevin Costner doing some of the best. He was, you know,
Speaker 1: one of our I guess the last yeah, the last
Speaker 1: podcast was coming interview. He's great in that movie and
Speaker 1: uh really just comfortable in the role. And and I
Speaker 1: think that's a difficult thing to pull off looking so
Speaker 1: at ease in a character, you know. And let's talk
Speaker 1: about some of those supporting actors in Fences. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I met Michael T. Williamson at our was that our
Speaker 1: brunch yesterday? Missed him? Sorry, I was busy talking to
Speaker 1: Matt Ross. Well, yeah, yeah, I would. I would say
Speaker 1: Kevin's Kevin's a good one. Kevin's a great one. I
Speaker 1: mentioned in our top fives. You know, Not that I
Speaker 1: think anyone's gonna take this seriously, but I do think
Speaker 1: Anton Yelchin was really good in Room and uh like
Speaker 1: like really good, not just like serviceable, like really good.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to throw out the lobster for screenplay
Speaker 1: as well. I think that's going to get in. Um. Look,
Speaker 1: best actor is a crazy crowded field like a while ago,
Speaker 1: was looking like really really empty. Um, but you know
Speaker 1: if if people could check out the founder. I think
Speaker 1: Michael Katon is really really good. Yeah, he's he's hard
Speaker 1: to like not root for. Here's when we both agree
Speaker 1: with and it's a seg uh. Maybe consider it for
Speaker 1: more than just best documentary. I mean it's one of
Speaker 1: the best films of the year period and people do
Speaker 1: is the interview this week? Really? Can I just tell
Speaker 1: you one of my favorites speaking of how my dad
Speaker 1: never remembers names or people he's I will not even
Speaker 1: tell you how many times he's but her Tom Hilson's name.
Speaker 1: I mean, the man's name is Tom. It's not that hard.
Speaker 1: But the one person that he has never forgotten he
Speaker 1: met her two years ago at that brunch. Have we
Speaker 1: talked about this on this podcast. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: feel like people might be. I know that I've talked
Speaker 1: about it at length on Twitter that my dad is
Speaker 1: in love with Avid Verney. Yes, yes, she's the one
Speaker 1: that left left the mark on your day go fig here. Well,
Speaker 1: she is a striking person. She is gorgeous and um,
Speaker 1: I would not mention how much my father is in
Speaker 1: love with her, except he is also a huge fan
Speaker 1: of her work. So it's I don't want like to
Speaker 1: get in trouble the way Steve Martin did by pointing
Speaker 1: out that Carry Fisher is beautiful and also talented and amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm actually that's that's the world we live in.
Speaker 1: But anyway, throw to shout out for Patriot's Day, Patriots Day,
Speaker 1: the editing especially, Yeah, the way that movies put togethers
Speaker 1: and deep Water. Yeah, these late arrivals that are really
Speaker 1: really deserving. Definitely. All right, we'll stay tuned for AVA
Speaker 1: right after this. Again. This episode of Playback is brought
Speaker 1: to you by Warner Brothers Pictures with Sully, which Richard
Speaker 1: Brody of The New Yorker says, is quote a deeply
Speaker 1: felt achievement directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Tom Hanks, Aaron A.
Speaker 1: Cart and Laura Lenny for your consideration. In all categories,
Speaker 1: Amendment to the Constitution makes it unconstitutional for someone to
Speaker 1: be held as a slave. There are exceptions, including criminals.
Speaker 1: The bloophole was immediately exploited, but you got after that
Speaker 1: was a rapid transition to a mythology of black commonality
Speaker 1: that needed to be controlled better. Believe, became virtually impossible
Speaker 1: for a politician to run and appear soft on crime,
Speaker 1: the kinds of kids that are called super predatories. Millions
Speaker 1: of dollars will be allocated for prison and jail facilities.
Speaker 1: Three strikes and you are. It was an enormous burden
Speaker 1: in the black community, but it also violated a sense
Speaker 1: of core fairness. After all, don't welcome back everyone. I'm
Speaker 1: here with thirteen director Ava du Vernay, Ava Havany Yere Chris.
Speaker 1: It's two seventeen. Aren't we glad to put two thousand
Speaker 1: sixteen behind? I think we all are. Yeah, I'm glad
Speaker 1: we finally got you in here. By the way, I know,
Speaker 1: I like I like this place. I've been trying to
Speaker 1: relay it in for months now. I was willing to
Speaker 1: go to the set of your movie to talk to
Speaker 1: you if I had to. You're so busy, You're such
Speaker 1: a busy lady. Now. I wanted to come, but I
Speaker 1: got five jobs. I know. Well, let me ask you
Speaker 1: about that. Actually, do you I mean, I'm not well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think I'm lazy. But if
Speaker 1: I can find a way to not leave the house,
Speaker 1: I probably you won't leave the house. Do you? Is
Speaker 1: living such a full life super important to you. Um,
Speaker 1: I feel like I am living a busy life when
Speaker 1: it comes to work, but not the fullest life I
Speaker 1: can live like as an overall human being. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have a family and a child, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: have nine jobs, you know what I mean. So one
Speaker 1: of my resolutions for the New Years to try to
Speaker 1: actually have a fuller life that's not just all work
Speaker 1: because between the television show and the doc and then
Speaker 1: shooting a new movie and array my work with a
Speaker 1: ray Our distribution collaborative, you know, it's just a lot
Speaker 1: of work. Yeah. Well this movie, you know, speaking of
Speaker 1: like how busy you are you're working on it and
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were working on this movie quiet projects.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I don't know. This felt like one that
Speaker 1: didn't need to be like announced in the trades, right
Speaker 1: as I said in the Trade office, Um, just because
Speaker 1: I think I got more access to folks because we
Speaker 1: weren't kind of waving the flag that we were doing it. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I was approaching people as it was was
Speaker 1: an exploration and investigation into some of these things that
Speaker 1: I want to know more about. Um. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: felt like the trade article maybe could wait until later.
Speaker 1: I'm glad we did. Yeah, well, I knew about it
Speaker 1: a long time ago myself, So I knew about this
Speaker 1: secret A small handful of folks, yes, but uh yeah,
Speaker 1: just that idea of being so busy in your work life.
Speaker 1: What does that speak to? Is that kind of how
Speaker 1: you were raised? Is there a work ethic instilled in you?
Speaker 1: Is sorely work ethic. My father owned his own business,
Speaker 1: and so you know, just that kind of around the
Speaker 1: clock here that you have to give to something as
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur, or something that I definitely saw in my
Speaker 1: mother of course at different times of my life working
Speaker 1: two three jobs. I think for me it's more about Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like this kind of a
Speaker 1: ticking career wise, only because I have not seen anyone
Speaker 1: that is like me that has had a long career
Speaker 1: doing what I do. I can't point to Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can't point to any women who have had, you know,
Speaker 1: a thirty year career that's consistent an American woman anyway,
Speaker 1: certainly not American woman of color. Um, very few you
Speaker 1: know filmmakers of color period from this country, and so
Speaker 1: there's not like there's a whole lineup of folks I
Speaker 1: can say, oh, I want to have a career like that,
Speaker 1: So that leads me to believe that that kind of
Speaker 1: career is rare and that I don't find myself to
Speaker 1: be exceptional. So in line with that, I should be
Speaker 1: a realist and make as much as I can, truly
Speaker 1: make as much as I can during this time. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, favor in Hollywood, in the industry comes in
Speaker 1: and out, and so right now I have some attention
Speaker 1: and the windows open and there's some favor and uh,
Speaker 1: you make as much as you can while you can.
Speaker 1: Well that speaks to what I think is really interesting
Speaker 1: about your career right now is it's a sense of escalation,
Speaker 1: like you put your foot down on the on the
Speaker 1: gas and you haven't let off. You know, you started
Speaker 1: with documentaries, you moved into intimate dramas, go off and
Speaker 1: do Selma, which is not like it's still an intimate
Speaker 1: drama and very much you, but it's obviously there's a
Speaker 1: bigness about a movie like that. And then something like thirteen.
Speaker 1: It's not like you you know, found some like shoe
Speaker 1: Repairman in Alabama and made like a little profile documentary.
Speaker 1: This is a significant work. And now you're doing this
Speaker 1: hundred million dollar large scale Disney movie. I feel like
Speaker 1: at some point we're gonna see your Star Wars movie
Speaker 1: or something. He's just kind of the What I'm saying
Speaker 1: is the trajectory is just like this, and uh, I
Speaker 1: guess everything you just said speaks to that. Well. It's
Speaker 1: funny because when you say trajectories like this, your hand
Speaker 1: went up as if it was like ascent. I just
Speaker 1: feel like it's. Ah, I don't know what linear or
Speaker 1: elateral like. It's just continuing, which is my only desire,
Speaker 1: you know, whether I'm I'm making Wrinkling Time for Disney
Speaker 1: or The Thirteenth, which was just a very started at
Speaker 1: as a very small doc and a very small doc
Speaker 1: for Netflix, or whether or not I jump in to
Speaker 1: do my own indie project next, which is what I'll
Speaker 1: be doing next. I just need to keep working, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I'm not trying to improve anything
Speaker 1: or go anywhere specific. I just want consistency, and that's
Speaker 1: been what has been lacking in the careers of so
Speaker 1: many women and people of color for so long. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hear you well, speaking of thirteen, Uh, I just
Speaker 1: want to pause here. First of all, the movie is.
Speaker 1: It's a documentary about what how this country has found
Speaker 1: a way to exist as a perpetual slave state through
Speaker 1: mass incarceration, prison industrial complex. If you haven't seen thirteen,
Speaker 1: you can do it right now. You can press pause,
Speaker 1: Ava and I will be here when you get back.
Speaker 1: Just pick us up when you're finished. You'll you'll be
Speaker 1: the conversation will be richer as a result. I think, um,
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, it was kind of under
Speaker 1: the radar, But when when did you first decide I
Speaker 1: want to make a movie about this subject? Yeah? It
Speaker 1: was the most unlikely phone call was a call from
Speaker 1: Lisa Nashamuro, who hads documentaries at Netflix, asking do you
Speaker 1: want to make a doc which I translated into are
Speaker 1: you going to give me money to make it? I
Speaker 1: still think very indemnded. When I was the first three films,
Speaker 1: I spent my own money to make them, you know,
Speaker 1: and scraping up the money. So when they said, you
Speaker 1: know that they wanted to go ahead and fund something.
Speaker 1: My pitch was to do a piece about the prison
Speaker 1: industrial complex, mostly the money that's being made off punishment,
Speaker 1: profit off punishment, and that process and the power all
Speaker 1: tied up into that. But as I got into that,
Speaker 1: I realized you can't really tell that story and talk
Speaker 1: about like prison labor now that J. C. Pennies or
Speaker 1: Victoria's Secrets was practicing or or dabbling in for a
Speaker 1: while without people understanding the black codes and reconstruction in
Speaker 1: prison labor during that time. So okay, So now I
Speaker 1: have to go back and tell you that. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: but you're not gonna understand that unless you know the
Speaker 1: context of the time. When I gotta get back to slavery. Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm in slavery, I might as well tell you.
Speaker 1: Do you know about the thirteenth the moment? Let me
Speaker 1: tell you about that. Then that comes up Jim Crow.
Speaker 1: If I'm talking about Michelle Alexander's new Gym Crow the book,
Speaker 1: you gotta know what the old Gim Crow was. So
Speaker 1: the pieces started to fit together where it became quite expansive,
Speaker 1: a lot bigger than I originally bit off. I think
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful thing about doc is it takes you
Speaker 1: where it wants to go or it needs to go,
Speaker 1: and you, as the filmmaker and the documentarian have to
Speaker 1: just follow that. Yeah, well, you uh, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: you studied African American studies in U. C. L A.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of this stuff. It didn't feel
Speaker 1: like to me like you said, Okay, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: off and do this movie and you explored it. Felt
Speaker 1: like you were ready to tell this story. And that
Speaker 1: is what I mean, like you had it all ready
Speaker 1: to go and to explore and how to explore it. Uh.
Speaker 1: That having been said, uh, was there anything when you
Speaker 1: got into it that you learned that was just like
Speaker 1: an arresting sort of thing you didn't really know? M
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the great thing about it is thank
Speaker 1: you for that compliment that. The great thing about it
Speaker 1: is I knew where I wanted to go. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the time spent um on documentaries about discovery,
Speaker 1: but so much of it I knew, and I was
Speaker 1: just ready to tell the story and wanting to see
Speaker 1: it all put together in this way, not like it
Speaker 1: hasn't been told in other places, but a bit of
Speaker 1: it's here, a bit of it's there. And my thought was, well,
Speaker 1: if we could put it in one place, an overview,
Speaker 1: a primer for people that don't know anything about it
Speaker 1: or people that know it, and the pieces, but there's
Speaker 1: something about seeing it all together. But within that what
Speaker 1: I didn't know really anything about. I mean, I knew
Speaker 1: it wasn't good, but I didn't know the depths of
Speaker 1: ALEC at the time that I was making the dock. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so as I was getting in there and talking
Speaker 1: about privatization in prison and um and uh, particularly the
Speaker 1: companies that were profit profiting off of services inside of prison,
Speaker 1: the phone calls that are made, the food, you know,
Speaker 1: the health care services. Looking into those contracts, it led
Speaker 1: me into ALEC. And and that was the hardest part
Speaker 1: of the dock for me because I didn't know anything
Speaker 1: about it, so I couldn't use my best judgment, Oh
Speaker 1: let's go look up this or let's tell them about this,
Speaker 1: as I was able to do in other parts of
Speaker 1: the dock. I was learning it from scratch, and I
Speaker 1: really stumbled over It took me a long time to
Speaker 1: a learn it myself enough so that I could share
Speaker 1: it with somebody else, and I went down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sidetracked me for like six months because
Speaker 1: I was just messed up over alec UM. But but yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's startling that there's a shadowy group of people
Speaker 1: who are not lawmakers, who are crafting our loss and
Speaker 1: that we abide by and that so many of us
Speaker 1: are in prisoned under So it was important to be
Speaker 1: in there and in that time, John Oliver did that
Speaker 1: segment on it, so you can. Yes, I mean I
Speaker 1: was so so struggling off of how to put that
Speaker 1: together and then that piece and I thought there's nothing
Speaker 1: better than a little humor to lighten it up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's staggering. Um. I wanted to talk about formal aspects
Speaker 1: of the movie because something that's stuck out to me,
Speaker 1: specifically framing and camera movement, uh, is that you frame
Speaker 1: your subjects a lot of the time just they seem
Speaker 1: a little bit overwhelmed by their environment, the infrastructure, architectural elements,
Speaker 1: you know, a vast brick wall, a large empty you
Speaker 1: know building. Just there's something about how you're framing people
Speaker 1: within their space, and I just wanted to talk about that,
Speaker 1: as well as the way you move your camera in
Speaker 1: the movie, like how you wanted the visual storytelling to
Speaker 1: come across. Yeah, and I thank you for the question.
Speaker 1: I really could ask that. Um My idea for the
Speaker 1: just production design which sometimes I say production design and
Speaker 1: I'm talking to people about the dock, and I get
Speaker 1: the eye roll, like, yeah, it's your production design where
Speaker 1: they sat when you wented to Cabra, But it really was.
Speaker 1: And my whole idea was labor. I wanted all of
Speaker 1: the kind of backdrops in the spaces within which they
Speaker 1: were sitting and talking to me to denote labor. So
Speaker 1: a lot of steel, brick and slate, glass, um stone
Speaker 1: and um, you know of the space where we interview
Speaker 1: Angela Davis for example, you know, an old abandoned train
Speaker 1: station in Oakland, so that you can see the decay
Speaker 1: on the walls of this kind of grand structure to
Speaker 1: concrete falling off. So that was the big idea behind it.
Speaker 1: And then within that certainly, um you know, a camera
Speaker 1: that was wide so that we can kind of have
Speaker 1: these spaces, which is what prison is. It's a space
Speaker 1: that you're captured within. UM kind of give a feel
Speaker 1: of a feeling of um captivity that they were kind
Speaker 1: of caught in my frame and unable to kind of move.
Speaker 1: But then there's space. There were places where and I
Speaker 1: went to juxtapose that were places where the analysts and
Speaker 1: expert I was talking to were really able to break
Speaker 1: free of their space. And so that's why I set
Speaker 1: up the three sixty dollar So there was a dolly
Speaker 1: actually two eighty dollar that was moving around the subjects
Speaker 1: and around me, behind my back and around me throughout
Speaker 1: all of the interviews. So static camera in multiple frame sizes. Uh,
Speaker 1: and then the dolly, which I think there's a point
Speaker 1: where we use the dolly more with people. UM. And
Speaker 1: when we cut cut that in, it's really during moments
Speaker 1: where we want to underline or highlight what's being said.
Speaker 1: So anyway, it was great. I was in a Q
Speaker 1: and A the other day, a community Q and A
Speaker 1: and the lady was like, I love that floating camera
Speaker 1: and I was like, don't you love people watching movies.
Speaker 1: It's like, ma'am, thank you, I appreciate it. It's like,
Speaker 1: what do you call that? I said, you call it
Speaker 1: a dolly? Man? I know, it's just it's lovely. Um.
Speaker 1: When did you decide to treat the word criminal the
Speaker 1: way you did? Oh? That was the idea that came
Speaker 1: probably midway through the process with my editor and great
Speaker 1: friend Spencer Afric, who I shared the writing credit on
Speaker 1: on this film. UM really wanted to just examine the
Speaker 1: ways in which African Americans have been uh criminalized is
Speaker 1: through d humanization. And the way that you de humanize
Speaker 1: is by calling people anything but human. And so whether
Speaker 1: it's criminal, whether it's the N word, whether it's thug,
Speaker 1: all of different ways that the media, the press, um,
Speaker 1: and you know, the society at large been affected by
Speaker 1: these labels anything other than man or woman or human being.
Speaker 1: And so it's important to to to play with those
Speaker 1: those ideas throughout. And then the importance of music. You
Speaker 1: have public enemy pops up, dead prayers, you've got the
Speaker 1: King of Names songs. Just what was the importance of
Speaker 1: music and telling the story? Well, my idea, my my
Speaker 1: idea behind that was that that you know, the black
Speaker 1: musical tradition has been one of protests around these very
Speaker 1: ideas of criminalization and de humanization of black people for
Speaker 1: as long as we can remember, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: uh uh Negro spiritual so called Negro spirituals or protest
Speaker 1: music during the Civil Rights movement are certainly hip hop. Um.
Speaker 1: We even have you know, a black opera singer and
Speaker 1: are our black composer Jason Moran doing some work with
Speaker 1: the operatic voice around um with the Negro spiritual. So
Speaker 1: the idea that artists, that artists with a voice, from
Speaker 1: Nina Simone to Chuck D have been talking about police,
Speaker 1: They've been talking about imprisonment, They've been talking about the
Speaker 1: criminal justice issues throughout. I mean, there's so many songs
Speaker 1: we could have pulled from. We just didn't have the
Speaker 1: cash to you know, sull out for Marvin Gaye was
Speaker 1: what's going on? You know what I mean? But I
Speaker 1: would have um great stuff. But so often artists have
Speaker 1: been on the forefront of narrating the experience, the black experience,
Speaker 1: specifically around these issues, and so I want to highlight
Speaker 1: that a little. Chuck D. Listen, you can't go wrong
Speaker 1: with the check. I was definitely bobbing my head. Uh
Speaker 1: you you were finishing this film up, you know, in
Speaker 1: kind of the home stretch of the election, and it
Speaker 1: started handing you stuff that you had to use. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously the Donald Trump segment that took off viral e
Speaker 1: right around the election where he's talking about the good
Speaker 1: old days. When you're in the middle of making a
Speaker 1: movie and the zeitgeist is so informing it in that
Speaker 1: way as you're making it, like what does what does
Speaker 1: that feel like. I mean, is it just like because
Speaker 1: you have to be, on one hand kind of caught
Speaker 1: between this is a gift and this is still awful
Speaker 1: like stuff that I'm having to deal with artistically. But
Speaker 1: just what does that feel like when you're in the
Speaker 1: heat of something like that and everything is informing what
Speaker 1: you're working on. Well, I've experienced it twice now, you know.
Speaker 1: With Yeah, with Someone we were right in the middle
Speaker 1: of Mike Brown's murder and Ferguson and we were cutting
Speaker 1: the summer, cutting Selma marches and beatings, the summer of
Speaker 1: Ferguson marches and beatings, and we're trying to limit voting
Speaker 1: rights that in that absolutely in that same time as well,
Speaker 1: um and then certainly with the thirteenth, with everything happening
Speaker 1: with the with the campaign. I think that thing that
Speaker 1: we've tried to show Spencer and I in both instances
Speaker 1: is restraint and to really think about the pieces Evergreen
Speaker 1: standing alone from whatever current trend or whatever is happening
Speaker 1: in the current moment. I mean, there was no we
Speaker 1: were determined not to cut Selma differently than we had
Speaker 1: already planned, even though we were going home at night
Speaker 1: and seeing images that we're bouncing off of what we
Speaker 1: had just cut, you know. Uh, And we were determined
Speaker 1: in this very much so not to become engulfed in
Speaker 1: all the election rhetoric. It would have been. It could
Speaker 1: have been really easy to expand or dedicate a whole
Speaker 1: section to that fight. Um. And it was a fight.
Speaker 1: But then what would it have been in December or
Speaker 1: January when you watch it, It would have been, you know,
Speaker 1: tagged as something of that time, and all the information
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with those two people, those
Speaker 1: two candidates would be lost in it. And so we
Speaker 1: wanted to try to keep an eye on making it evergreen.
Speaker 1: And so I've been satisfied with going back and watching
Speaker 1: the dock after the election. Um, it resonates in a
Speaker 1: differ way, but I'm not lost. It doesn't feel dated
Speaker 1: because we did not kind of indulge in the low
Speaker 1: hanging fruit of you know, the sensational elements of the
Speaker 1: campaign and beyond just the here and now. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're both of them were candidates who have a history. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what we embraced. It was just the fact that
Speaker 1: they were a part of the story. Uh. So they
Speaker 1: they they were they fell into the narrative naturally and authentically,
Speaker 1: and they were always planned to be in it before
Speaker 1: either emerged. I mean I was working on it for
Speaker 1: two years, so before either emerged as the the nominee
Speaker 1: for their party. Uh, they were in it, both of them,
Speaker 1: and so we just stayed true to that and tried
Speaker 1: not to kind of get to two of the moment
Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, and I thought it was very important too.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing partisan about it. The Clintons have
Speaker 1: their their situation to deal with here with this source
Speaker 1: or this subject matters. I think that one of the
Speaker 1: big things a couple of folks to that you should
Speaker 1: have put that in there. It is Tailory and not
Speaker 1: against Hilory. Uh. This is what she said. That's what
Speaker 1: the lady said. This is what she said, and this
Speaker 1: is what she said afterwards. She said it at one
Speaker 1: point and later she said, you know, things have changed.
Speaker 1: I regret that such and such. But the truth, uh
Speaker 1: is that she said it, and it deserved a place
Speaker 1: in there because those words and that thinking did impact
Speaker 1: what was happening at the time politically. Well. I think
Speaker 1: the fact is it's history that needs to be learned from, uh,
Speaker 1: which kind of brings me to my next question here.
Speaker 1: This issue of quote, law and order is very much back.
Speaker 1: As Trump says in your in their film, he says
Speaker 1: he's the law and order candidate. Uh. The West Virginia
Speaker 1: Senator recently Joe Manchin, said that the solution for his
Speaker 1: state's opioid epidemic was to declare a war on drugs,
Speaker 1: which I think you responded to on Twitter. That sounded familiar.
Speaker 1: It's an outrageous statement and also kind of, you know, ironic,
Speaker 1: because the opioid epidemic is largely a white problem. My things.
Speaker 1: But Uh, I guess I have a question that I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone can really answer. I'm gonna ask you anyway,
Speaker 1: why don't we learn these lessons? Uh, that's a great question,
Speaker 1: I think because they're not pointed out often enough. It
Speaker 1: feels new in the moment. If you don't know history.
Speaker 1: That's why you know some or I was African American
Speaker 1: history major, you know, some are looking back their their
Speaker 1: lessons to be learned in the past. You hear you
Speaker 1: know this this politician now talking about law and order.
Speaker 1: And if you cannot connect that, if you cannot connect
Speaker 1: what Trump says to what's been done before and the
Speaker 1: ways in which those were that those words have been
Speaker 1: used to distort, you know, uh and and twist the
Speaker 1: realities of millions of people, particularly people of color. Then
Speaker 1: you have no context for being wrong, and there's nothing
Speaker 1: to learn. So it's so so important and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: just proud of the fact that int were just a
Speaker 1: reminding people this is not new, folks, there's none of
Speaker 1: this is new. I think a lot of folks now
Speaker 1: are um. I see like online, we're both online quite
Speaker 1: a bit. I see a lot of people kind of
Speaker 1: trying to make connections, you know what I mean, trying
Speaker 1: to pull things together in a way that we remind
Speaker 1: ourselves where this kind of thinking leads us. Just saw
Speaker 1: something the other day, the Smithsonian magazine's account talking about
Speaker 1: how the press covered Mussolini, you know, looking back at
Speaker 1: headlines like we've been here before, how did we react
Speaker 1: and how can we do better? And so um, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the that's the first way to kind of combat
Speaker 1: these things is to know that that we're in a continuum.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's multiple issues at play too. It's like
Speaker 1: we're also at this point now where people either believe
Speaker 1: everything they read largely from the wrong sources, or they
Speaker 1: believe nothing that they read because uh, it's just it's
Speaker 1: not an informed populace. And uh, it never really has been,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it ever will be. The
Speaker 1: press is more under fire today than ever in that regard.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's complicated, complicated times. There were a
Speaker 1: couple of specific things I wanted to ask about in
Speaker 1: the film with certain subjects, like Charles Range when when
Speaker 1: he's he seemed to not really get it when he
Speaker 1: was talking about to just say no campaign. Was that frustrating? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, he represented, um, black politicians at the time
Speaker 1: who were in favor of the you know, drug policies,
Speaker 1: particularly in Clinton with Clinton and Reagan's administration that really
Speaker 1: in the end it damaged to black and brown communities. Um.
Speaker 1: But at that time, as he says it was, there
Speaker 1: was an epidemic, there was a lot of fear in
Speaker 1: the black community that was being stoked by these politicians
Speaker 1: to get what they wanted. And uh, and so he
Speaker 1: was a part of it. Um. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that I was happy that he
Speaker 1: said on cameras that he was wrong, um, and that
Speaker 1: it didn't work out like he like it was promised.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 1: I think he's done a lot for the black community
Speaker 1: in his district and his state, But at that time
Speaker 1: he was used, you know what I mean, he was used, um,
Speaker 1: and promises were made that that were against the interests
Speaker 1: of the very communities he was trying to protect, and
Speaker 1: so um. This is also something that's continued to happen,
Speaker 1: particularly around black politicians. And you know, it takes the
Speaker 1: diligent kind of politician that wants to educate themselves, especially
Speaker 1: if you're black, brown, or otherwise, to make sure that
Speaker 1: you're not the pond. This time, Yeah, and the new
Speaker 1: Gingrich had some disarmingly reasonable things to say. I know,
Speaker 1: I had faith in I mean, and like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was interesting. A couple of things came out of
Speaker 1: that interview. One, I was struck by how small my
Speaker 1: own circle is in that it was startling to me
Speaker 1: to sit across from someone who had this the radically
Speaker 1: different point of view than I am, Like just for
Speaker 1: me personally, I thought, wow, I should know more people
Speaker 1: in my life, like as a black woman, I will
Speaker 1: you know, easily kind of slap the hand or criticize
Speaker 1: white people who don't know any black people. Right, It's like, dude,
Speaker 1: get a life in their personal life. Um. But I'm
Speaker 1: you know, a liberal who don't who does not know
Speaker 1: any conservatives. Like if I wanted to have some conservatives
Speaker 1: over my home, they would be strangers walking into my
Speaker 1: house to have a conversation. And that's not healthy either.
Speaker 1: We need to be able to expand you know, are
Speaker 1: are who we're talking to on a daily basis. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that was one thing that struck me as
Speaker 1: I was talking about to all these conservatives interviewed over
Speaker 1: twenty for the doc. There's a lot of people we
Speaker 1: don't identify, we don't say they're liberal conservative. And a
Speaker 1: lot of these people in the prison reform they sound
Speaker 1: quote unquote liberal because they're saying to do away with
Speaker 1: with prison as it is now. But many of the
Speaker 1: people I talked to our conservatives. Um. And Anyway, it
Speaker 1: was startling to me to sit down with someone like
Speaker 1: Newt and hear him say those things. I've been talking
Speaker 1: that way in smaller circles for a while, so I
Speaker 1: knew what I was going to get if I can
Speaker 1: get to it. But um, I've also kind of done
Speaker 1: a double take with some of the stuff that's coming
Speaker 1: out now from him. I was going to say, how
Speaker 1: do you reconcile? I can't where he is, I can't reconcile,
Speaker 1: and I just I don't know. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: I one of them is disingenuous, you know, one of them.
Speaker 1: One of them is not right. You weren't telling the
Speaker 1: truth somewhere, because there's no way you can hold those
Speaker 1: two points of view and be saying, do you have
Speaker 1: a line into him? What my new column be like
Speaker 1: new what's going on? Yeah? No, it's it's it's um,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested in knowing myself. Yeah, Van Jones and Jones.
Speaker 1: He's fairly it's interesting. I'll let you ask. The question
Speaker 1: stands out as a as a dominant voice in the film,
Speaker 1: I think, and certainly after this year and the voice
Speaker 1: he's had on on TV. When I can stomach CNN,
Speaker 1: he is one of the few things that I can
Speaker 1: stomach to that because everything is like, I can't. Someone
Speaker 1: took a dump on Trump star, Let's go to our
Speaker 1: CNN panel. Yeah, I can't, what is that? But anyway,
Speaker 1: what kind of uh? He's interesting to me, and I'm
Speaker 1: curious about his future as a journalistic voice, Like what
Speaker 1: do you think, I'm excited about it. When I first
Speaker 1: said that, I've known him for a little bit. I
Speaker 1: saw him doing some stuff on stand in for Selma
Speaker 1: the march that the President participated in the fiftieth anniversary,
Speaker 1: and I reached out to him just to say, you know,
Speaker 1: I love what he had said, and so we stayed
Speaker 1: in touch, and when I asked him to do this,
Speaker 1: he first came into the interview and he was He's
Speaker 1: not the van we know now. I mean, he's always
Speaker 1: been brilliant, but he was very when he first sat down.
Speaker 1: The interview was very I don't know, um, are you talking?
Speaker 1: Point like he because he's talked about this stuff so much.
Speaker 1: He travels the country talking about prison reform and his
Speaker 1: his organization cut fifty and so I just turned off
Speaker 1: the camera for a second. I said, I just I
Speaker 1: just need you to talk to us. And me like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're just home. He's hanging out, like really tell me
Speaker 1: the real real deal, like in the non TV voice,
Speaker 1: like really give it to us. He was like okay,
Speaker 1: and it just this amazing interview came out where he
Speaker 1: really is. He shines because he kind of and now
Speaker 1: I see that guy more on national team and not
Speaker 1: saying that we did it, but he's embracing something where
Speaker 1: his voice is so clear right now. It's one of
Speaker 1: the few points of clarity I think on the airwaves
Speaker 1: that I'm just thrilled with it and excited for him. Brilliant,
Speaker 1: brilliant guy and a big public intellectual that I'm glad
Speaker 1: we have his his voice out there, and I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that we were able to capture in that particular
Speaker 1: interview we shot that. It was one of our later ones.
Speaker 1: We shot that, Uh, probably in the spring of last year. Yeah, yeah, Uh,
Speaker 1: strange question, but you know, we gotta get our our
Speaker 1: everything together here. Who should care? Who should lead the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party? Okay, I don't do you even have an answer?
Speaker 1: Is it an unfair question? I just I shake my head.
Speaker 1: It is. Um. The whole thing is such a disappointment, uh,
Speaker 1: from top to bottom, from all sides. I just I
Speaker 1: can't believe there's no strong voice of dissent. There's no
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you there's no one that
Speaker 1: I'm looking at. You know, that's how that's been strong
Speaker 1: enough that's at the backbone that's been Someone will emerge.
Speaker 1: I'm confident. I can only pray that someone will emerge.
Speaker 1: It has to, because this kind of apathetic kind of
Speaker 1: just it's just it's just the responses at this point.
Speaker 1: It's been weak in my view to a very very
Speaker 1: It's something that deserves a strong opposition. Um and uh.
Speaker 1: I can't see who it is now. I hope someone
Speaker 1: emerges sooner than later. Who do you think people talk
Speaker 1: about Gavin Newsom a lot. I mean, he's very What
Speaker 1: was the joke someone made recently, Bill Maher said he
Speaker 1: looks like he's out of central casting, which is true.
Speaker 1: I mean he looks a little yeah, but he's he's
Speaker 1: been opening his mouth. Somebody's got to I mean he's
Speaker 1: been certainly in this state, which is at the forefront
Speaker 1: of progressive he's been a very great leader for that.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. He stands out as a possibility.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, man. I mean when I think
Speaker 1: when you said leader of the party, I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: someone that's within striking distance of doing that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean he's a great someone, a long way to
Speaker 1: go to get there. I'm just who is right there
Speaker 1: to take it, you know, the people that are standing
Speaker 1: right there just you know, yeah, not not not doing it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's certainly a lot of depression to
Speaker 1: go around it. Absolutely every want to snap out of
Speaker 1: it in the new year. Yeah, I think I'll just
Speaker 1: say this. I really think it's going to be. And
Speaker 1: I was talking to a friend about this. It's going
Speaker 1: to be. The power of the image is one that
Speaker 1: we all know as people who love film and practice
Speaker 1: film is a striking emotional thing. And when he lifts
Speaker 1: his hand, puts his hand on that Bible and takes
Speaker 1: that oath and we see the image, I really I
Speaker 1: pray that that is a thing that shakes us out
Speaker 1: of the stupor like this is like a bad reality
Speaker 1: show and it's not real, or something's going to happen
Speaker 1: and turn it all around, because then it's done. And
Speaker 1: I'm dreading the image, but it is coming and it
Speaker 1: is real. And Obama. I was there the day that
Speaker 1: Bush took off in air for or Marine one at
Speaker 1: the inauguration and Obama was there raising his hand and
Speaker 1: this is gonna be Obama taking off a Marine one.
Speaker 1: And who's left this guy raising his hand and walking
Speaker 1: into that house and living there maybe if you decide,
Speaker 1: or making New York at nightmare exactly. So it's it's
Speaker 1: you know, I think just for for you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of the storytelling that people are telling themselves. You know,
Speaker 1: that image is going to be a powerful one that
Speaker 1: this country either we'll descend into a full on depression
Speaker 1: or will really shake some people out of their stupor.
Speaker 1: I think mainly people need to realize there's nothing that's
Speaker 1: gonna bail us out in the next three weeks two weeks.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, the electors, that wasn't gonna happen,
Speaker 1: and none of these things are going to happen, like
Speaker 1: this is it, this is it? And uh, impeachment maybe maybe,
Speaker 1: but you know everybody seems to beginning in line, so probably.
Speaker 1: All right, let's let's uh, this is a depressing conversation, Christopher,
Speaker 1: let's talk about wrinkle. How's that going okay to be detailed? No,
Speaker 1: no, no no, but let me tell you this is my
Speaker 1: life thirteen and trump. You know, bad feelings, and then
Speaker 1: I get to go in and just work on Wrinkle,
Speaker 1: and my whole mood just changes because I get to
Speaker 1: create creatures and deal with beautiful children and great actors
Speaker 1: and costumes and just it's a self care moment, a
Speaker 1: little escape. I do, I really do, because at that
Speaker 1: making thirteenth and like, you know, editing a thousand hours
Speaker 1: of racist, violent footage and like trying to wrap my
Speaker 1: mind around all these really complex issues about dehumanization in
Speaker 1: the ways that we oppress each other. Um took a toll,
Speaker 1: you know, right after Selma. It was just like lady comes,
Speaker 1: you know, just sit back and relax a little bit.
Speaker 1: And so That's what I've been doing with this. I
Speaker 1: mean not relaxing. It's obviously intense, but the subject matter
Speaker 1: itself is not harmful to my heart every time I
Speaker 1: go home, and so I've been enjoying it. Did the
Speaker 1: scale of this projects? Have you just taken that in stride?
Speaker 1: Is it? Yeah? I love it? I I people always
Speaker 1: ask me that, like I'm about to break in half,
Speaker 1: but I mean, I mean not like you did. But
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, of course, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: making a fuel, but it's making a movie. I Mean.
Speaker 1: The one thing that I've I've really learned from it
Speaker 1: is there's never enough money or time. The day is
Speaker 1: going to end, the sun is going to go down.
Speaker 1: It does not matter what's on your getn't make it
Speaker 1: or you didn't. And it's the same if I'm making
Speaker 1: my first film, phone were're making this film. It's like
Speaker 1: the bottom line you have to look after in the eye.
Speaker 1: You have to get the truth of the performance. You
Speaker 1: have to understand that story, and you have to do
Speaker 1: it in a certain amount of daylight hours or not.
Speaker 1: And all the bells and whistles around it have been
Speaker 1: really lovely. You know. I was able to hand pick
Speaker 1: my crew. Disney was fantastic, and that I was able
Speaker 1: top to bottom to put together the people around me
Speaker 1: who made me comfortable, who were like minded, forward thinking,
Speaker 1: and who had no problem being directed by a woman.
Speaker 1: And um so it's been just a beautiful experience and
Speaker 1: quite um I can't swim. I can't swim, like me personally,
Speaker 1: but it's like just because I haven't. It's like a kid,
Speaker 1: like when you put a baby in the pool, right,
Speaker 1: I think you're about to tell me some story about
Speaker 1: how you fell into some water. That's a metaphoric analogy,
Speaker 1: if that is such a term. But yeah, you put
Speaker 1: a baby who could swim, and you put her in
Speaker 1: the pool and the baby just swims. I'm told I'm
Speaker 1: like a baby in the pool. I've never slam, but
Speaker 1: I'm swimming and um it feels good, awesome. Well, hopefully
Speaker 1: we can get you back in here to talk about
Speaker 1: that when it comes out. I hope so. And uh.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, like I said, if you didn't watch
Speaker 1: it when we told you to go, yeah, press pause
Speaker 1: on this and go to Netflix a laptop app that
Speaker 1: you can watch. You to take your fingertips, do it. Ava,
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on the show. I was like talking
Speaker 1: to you all right. Thanks. Thanks for listening everyone. Remember
Speaker 1: to subscribe and check back next week. You've been listening
Speaker 1: to Playback at Variety once again. This episode of Playback
Speaker 1: has been brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. With
Speaker 1: Sully selected as one of the best films of the
Speaker 1: Year by a f I based on Captain Sully Sullenberger's
Speaker 1: Unforgettable Landing on the Hudson River, directed by Clint Eastwood,
Speaker 1: Produced by Clint Eastwood, Frank Marshall, Alan Stewart and Tim Moore,
Speaker 1: starring Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, and Laura Lenney. For your consideration,
Speaker 1: in all categories,