WEBVTT - Patti Smith 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:22.756 Pushkin. Hey, y'all, today we have the one and only 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:26.876 Patty Smith on the show. Patty's the prototypical downtown New 0:00:26.956 --> 0:00:31.156 York City artist. Her nineteen seventy five debut album, Horses 0:00:31.396 --> 0:00:34.676 is credited as one of the masterpieces of its time. 0:00:35.516 --> 0:00:37.876 It also cemented her as one of rock and roll's 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:42.396 great lyricists, but her writing extends far beyond music. Her 0:00:42.396 --> 0:00:45.516 twenty ten memoir Just Kids won the National Book Award 0:00:45.636 --> 0:00:49.356 for its brilliant portrayal of the late sixties bohemian art 0:00:49.436 --> 0:00:52.516 scene in New York and Patty's experience living in the 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:57.476 Chelsea Hotel with famed photographer Robert Maplethorpe. During those years, 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:00.116 Patty hung out with Andy Warhol at the Factory and 0:01:00.356 --> 0:01:03.316 was mentored by great writers like William S. Burrows and 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:09.596 Alan Ginsburg. Today, Patty publishes near daily offerings of poems, songs, 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:13.236 and serialized fiction on her sub stack. It's a journal 0:01:13.236 --> 0:01:16.076 of sorts that she started during the solitary days of 0:01:16.116 --> 0:01:19.676 the pandemic. On today's episode, Malcolm Gladwell talks to Patti 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:22.996 Smith about her writing in the studio Jimi Hendrix built 0:01:23.316 --> 0:01:26.676 Electric Lady. It was there, she tells Malcolm that she 0:01:26.796 --> 0:01:30.396 met Hendrix in nineteen seventy, just weeks before he passed. 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:33.556 She also talks about hanging out with and writing lyrics 0:01:33.716 --> 0:01:37.316 for Janis Joplin, and she recalls the fund that she 0:01:37.396 --> 0:01:41.116 had during a failed attempt to cover Adele in concert. 0:01:44.196 --> 0:01:47.356 This is Broken Record liner notes for the Digital Age. 0:01:47.636 --> 0:01:53.076 I'm justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell and Patti Smith. Patty, 0:01:53.196 --> 0:01:56.316 thank you for joining us on Broken Record. Thank you. 0:01:56.836 --> 0:02:00.396 We are here in Electric Lady Studios, a place that 0:02:00.516 --> 0:02:05.916 you have a special relationship too, and little bits of 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:08.516 you are all around this place. I noticed as I 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:11.116 came in. When did you first come here? What's your 0:02:11.396 --> 0:02:13.996 what is your history with Electric Lady? Well, my very 0:02:13.996 --> 0:02:18.676 first time I came was Jimmy's opening party, which I 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:24.316 think is August twenty six, nineteen seventy. Jimmy Andris Jimmy 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:28.636 Hendricks had a party to open it, and I was 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:32.676 writing record reviews and things at the time, and I 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:36.356 was invited. So I was very excited because he was 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:41.156 one of my favorite artists, and I came, but I 0:02:41.196 --> 0:02:45.116 wasn't used to going to high profile parties, and so 0:02:45.316 --> 0:02:49.316 I wound up sitting on the steps and just watching 0:02:49.356 --> 0:02:52.356 people go back and forth because I didn't I just 0:02:52.436 --> 0:02:56.636 didn't have the nerve to go in. And Jimmy had 0:02:56.676 --> 0:02:59.756 to leave the party early. I think he had a flight. 0:02:59.796 --> 0:03:03.036 He was going to the Isle of Wight and he 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:05.476 had that big festival. He was going to London in 0:03:05.556 --> 0:03:08.796 any event, and he saw me sitting on the steps, 0:03:09.116 --> 0:03:11.676 and this was nineteen seventy. I was, you know, I 0:03:11.676 --> 0:03:15.356 had a certain look, you know, I was probably appealing 0:03:15.436 --> 0:03:18.756 in a certain way. And he laughed and he said, uh, 0:03:18.796 --> 0:03:21.436 you're not going. He had that really that soft voice, 0:03:21.556 --> 0:03:23.916 not going to the party. You know, I can't do it. 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:27.516 But and I said, well, I'm a little shy, and 0:03:28.396 --> 0:03:30.916 he said, and he told me he was shy too. 0:03:31.036 --> 0:03:35.116 He said, actually people didn't understand that about him, but 0:03:35.156 --> 0:03:38.356 he was shy. And he said it was interesting how 0:03:38.396 --> 0:03:44.116 you could be such a you know, an aggressive performer, 0:03:44.316 --> 0:03:48.196 yet still be shy around people. And he told me 0:03:48.716 --> 0:03:51.196 that he was going to go and do these shows, 0:03:52.236 --> 0:03:54.516 a handful of shows, and then he was going to 0:03:55.116 --> 0:04:00.356 come back, go to Woodstock and gather musicians from all 0:04:00.476 --> 0:04:03.316 over the world and then have them sit in a 0:04:03.396 --> 0:04:07.396 circle and play just like like or Nick coleman is, 0:04:07.636 --> 0:04:12.636 as you know, ofteness or whatever, out of tune, different keys, 0:04:12.796 --> 0:04:16.876 instruments that didn't normally go together meld together, play and 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:23.276 play and play till they connected and found a common language. 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:26.396 And to him that would be the language of peace. 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:30.796 And then he left, and of course we never saw 0:04:30.876 --> 0:04:34.956 him again. He died in London only maybe a couple 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:39.396 weeks later, a few weeks later, I think, which was heartbreaking. 0:04:39.956 --> 0:04:45.636 So that was my introduction to Electric Ladies studios. I 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:49.516 didn't even have the nerve to come into inside, and 0:04:49.716 --> 0:04:53.236 never dreamed that I would one day be recording because 0:04:53.396 --> 0:04:57.956 I was working in a bookstore and writing reviews. But 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:06.916 subsequently I recorded my independent single, Piss Factory Horses here 0:05:07.516 --> 0:05:10.836 and just a plus of other albums. Over half my 0:05:10.916 --> 0:05:15.396 albums I've recorded here, including my last album. So it's 0:05:15.436 --> 0:05:18.556 become quite a home for me. And in terms of 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:22.596 you mentioning bits and pieces of me here, you can't 0:05:22.596 --> 0:05:25.636 imagine what an honor it is still after all these 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:29.476 years to walk in here and see horses on the wall, 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:33.636 other pictures on the wall. It means a great deal 0:05:33.676 --> 0:05:36.316 to me. When you came in, you were pointing at 0:05:36.356 --> 0:05:38.956 a collage on the wall that's not yours is no, 0:05:39.076 --> 0:05:41.796 the collage is just part of the art that was here. 0:05:41.876 --> 0:05:44.036 If you go in the bathroom, have you gone to 0:05:44.116 --> 0:05:47.836 the bathroom here yet? It's Daykupa and it's the same. 0:05:48.276 --> 0:05:51.036 All the art is the same. All these murals were 0:05:51.076 --> 0:05:56.596 here when the studio opened. Jimmy commissioned all of these murals. 0:05:56.636 --> 0:05:59.596 And the bathrooms, the lady and men's room are all 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:03.076 dey Coupa, which was very it was a very sixty 0:06:03.276 --> 0:06:07.356 late sixties thing, and you know, varnished, lots of collage 0:06:07.796 --> 0:06:12.236 material varnished over and that is probably a piece of 0:06:12.356 --> 0:06:14.876 artwork that was in one of the offices. But you 0:06:14.956 --> 0:06:17.876 have to go in the bathroom before you left. But 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:21.036 who wait, who else was at the party? Do you remember? No? 0:06:21.196 --> 0:06:24.556 Because I was, I mean probably Eddie Kramer. And you know, 0:06:24.636 --> 0:06:27.196 I didn't know any of these people. As I said, 0:06:27.196 --> 0:06:30.796 I was working in a bookstore and I knew a 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:34.996 handful of people. I knew some writers from Maxis Kansas City, 0:06:35.156 --> 0:06:38.036 or had met lou Reid and a few people. But 0:06:38.676 --> 0:06:42.636 you know this these were like probably you know, maybe 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:46.796 there were a lot of celebrities or models or producers, 0:06:46.876 --> 0:06:50.036 but it wasn't part of my world, so I only 0:06:50.356 --> 0:06:53.636 cared about Jimmie Hendrick. So I don't know who else 0:06:53.716 --> 0:06:56.076 was at the party at that point. You'd been in 0:06:56.116 --> 0:06:58.876 New York for how long? I came to New York 0:06:58.916 --> 0:07:03.556 in nineteen sixty seven, July nineteen sixty seven, so like 0:07:03.636 --> 0:07:05.996 a couple of years. But I went to Brooklyn. I 0:07:06.076 --> 0:07:10.436 moved to Brooklyn with Robert Maplethorpe, and then we moved 0:07:10.436 --> 0:07:14.716 to the Chelsea Hotel in August of sixty nine, So 0:07:14.756 --> 0:07:17.876 this was a year later, so I was still quite 0:07:17.876 --> 0:07:21.516 the fledgling. Yeah, I want to come back to that period, 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:25.036 but I want to do this little exercise first, which is, 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:29.636 you know, as I look back on your career, it's 0:07:29.836 --> 0:07:31.876 unusual in many respects, But one of the things it's 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:34.916 most unusual about it is it's like, it's really kind 0:07:34.956 --> 0:07:37.676 of you can give me the exact number, it's really 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:41.996 four or five different lives. It's a few. Yeah, I 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:44.076 want you to go through your tell me all the 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:47.876 Patti Smith lives. Well, funny enough, I'm writing a book 0:07:47.916 --> 0:07:50.636 about that, so but I can I mean, in terms 0:07:50.676 --> 0:07:55.916 of my public life, my public life started quite slowly 0:07:56.036 --> 0:08:00.676 in nineteen seventy one. I did you know I came 0:08:00.716 --> 0:08:02.996 to New York. Really I wanted to be an artist, 0:08:03.516 --> 0:08:08.036 a visual artist, and really I felt like language for 0:08:08.076 --> 0:08:10.716 some reason. I was also writing a lot of poetry, 0:08:10.716 --> 0:08:15.956 and poetry really sort of eclipsed the visual arts. So 0:08:16.036 --> 0:08:20.516 I really dedicated myself to poetry in the late sixties 0:08:20.556 --> 0:08:24.036 and early seventies, and I was working in a bookstore. 0:08:24.076 --> 0:08:26.876 So I would say that period of my life from 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:33.036 sixty seven to seventy five was really devoted to writing poetry, 0:08:33.716 --> 0:08:39.516 starting to perform publicly, and of course being greatly influenced 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:44.276 and shepherded by Robert Maplethorpe and then Sam Shephard. These 0:08:44.396 --> 0:08:47.676 formative years that I had. I was very lucky to 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:51.036 have so many good teachers, you know, and breaking my 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:54.356 life up. I would say that period from sixty seven 0:08:54.396 --> 0:08:57.796 to seventy five was my university. I was friends with 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:03.676 William Burrows and yes, you've skipped childhood. Yeah, well I'm 0:09:03.716 --> 0:09:08.036 number nine. I'm not going through that with you. I'm 0:09:08.076 --> 0:09:12.276 just say poor one is pre New York. Yeah, Part 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:16.316 one is pre New York. But in terms of the 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:19.636 work that I do, yeah, it would really start when 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:23.036 I came to New York because when I came to 0:09:23.116 --> 0:09:27.116 New York, I was twenty. I was excited about everything. 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:30.756 I was well read, I had a good work ethic 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:35.196 in terms of writing and doing jobs. You know, I've 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:39.076 been working since I was about fourteen, whether in factories 0:09:39.236 --> 0:09:44.596 or picking blueberries or working in bookstores. So in nineteen 0:09:45.236 --> 0:09:47.716 sixty seven, when I came to New York and met Robert, 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:51.516 that was when I really, along with him, made a 0:09:51.636 --> 0:09:56.436 vow to you know, pretty much to art, art being 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:59.396 all the fields of art, but I was I became 0:09:59.476 --> 0:10:02.556 much more devoted to poetry, and that that period was 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:05.756 really my learning period. I met a lot of people 0:10:06.316 --> 0:10:10.796 who helped me along encourage me. Bobby new Wirth encouraged 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:15.716 me to write lyrics, Jim Carroll to write poetry. I 0:10:15.836 --> 0:10:19.036 was so lucky to know William Burrows and Gregory Corso 0:10:19.316 --> 0:10:24.316 and Alan Ginsburg, and not just as friends but teachers. 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:27.756 They looked at my work, they encouraged me, They invited 0:10:27.796 --> 0:10:30.956 me to read with them and to be somewhat part 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:33.796 of their world. Where are you meeting these people in 0:10:33.836 --> 0:10:37.636 the lobby of the Chelsea Hotel? Mostly, I mean back 0:10:37.676 --> 0:10:40.996 then Robert and I moved there in sixty nine and 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:43.516 there was the l Kyote Bar next door to it, 0:10:44.116 --> 0:10:46.956 and they all went there. I mean I didn't really drink, 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:49.036 but they all went there so you could go and 0:10:49.076 --> 0:10:52.116 sit in the bar and sit next to Carl Solomon 0:10:52.316 --> 0:10:56.116 or Terry Southern and William and I had a big 0:10:56.156 --> 0:11:01.036 crush on Williams, so you know, we became friends. But 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:04.236 back then everybody was around, you know, there wasn't the 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:08.236 same cult of celebrity. It was just like in the Chelsea. 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:11.196 I was living there and so was Janis Joplin living 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:14.596 there for a while. Only we all dressed the same. 0:11:14.676 --> 0:11:17.116 We all listened to the same music. They were a 0:11:17.156 --> 0:11:19.396 couple of years older than me, some of these people, 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:24.756 but we were of the same mindset. And yeah, some 0:11:24.836 --> 0:11:28.516 of them are real well known, but we all commingled. 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:32.076 And because every all of us were like as I 0:11:32.076 --> 0:11:35.796 would say, outside society. Janis Joplin was big, but also 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:38.636 she couldn't go into fancy hotels because of the way 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:43.756 she dressed. And we all talked and hung out together. 0:11:44.556 --> 0:11:49.156 But I had very good mentors very early on. For instance, 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:52.556 Bobby knew Worth, who I recognized from being and don't 0:11:52.596 --> 0:11:56.316 look back. Bobby was also a painter and a songwriter, 0:11:56.876 --> 0:12:01.076 is I mean? And Bobby introduced me. He was tour 0:12:01.236 --> 0:12:06.836 managing Janice Joplin at the time, and she was writing material, 0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:10.076 and Bobby liked my poems and he wanted me. He 0:12:10.196 --> 0:12:13.596 encouraged me to write some lyrics for her. You know, 0:12:13.876 --> 0:12:17.876 I had a lot of encouragement from people. I was 0:12:17.916 --> 0:12:20.956 sort of an unusual I was like Colden Coffield at 0:12:20.956 --> 0:12:24.396 the Chelsea, a little mix of Holden Coffield or Eloise 0:12:24.476 --> 0:12:27.956 at the Plaza. I don't know, I was not even 0:12:27.996 --> 0:12:30.236 though I was sort of a South Jersey hick. But 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:34.076 I was really well read. And I was also probably 0:12:34.556 --> 0:12:37.676 one of the few people who wasn't stoned or speeding 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:40.316 half the time because I didn't take drugs and I 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:43.356 had a steady job, which meant I could be hit 0:12:43.436 --> 0:12:46.756 for a couple of dollars here and there. I don't know. 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:51.276 I can't say why these really great people, you know, 0:12:51.396 --> 0:12:54.796 took me in under their wing, but they did. I'm 0:12:54.836 --> 0:12:58.116 struck in that era, that world that you're inhabiting, in 0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:00.716 this sort of first stage sixty seven to seventy five, 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:05.436 how many people are like you, outsiders who come to 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:09.876 New York I'm fascinated by the notion of people who arrived. 0:13:10.476 --> 0:13:14.356 The difference between arriving to New York from as you did, 0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:17.556 you know, as you call yourself a hick from South Jersey, 0:13:17.756 --> 0:13:22.636 difference between encountering all of what was going on culturally. Well, 0:13:22.636 --> 0:13:24.676 I'll tell you one thing. I came to New York 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:28.636 for a job. That's why I mean. In South Jersey 0:13:28.676 --> 0:13:31.516 there wasn't a lot of work. And then they had 0:13:31.716 --> 0:13:35.636 the New York Shipyard closed down in nineteen sixty seven 0:13:35.796 --> 0:13:39.436 or sixty six, and thirty thousand people went out of work, 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:42.916 and there wasn't any work. I mean yet the Columbia 0:13:42.956 --> 0:13:46.796 record pressing plant near where I lived, or the Campbell 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:50.876 soup plant. But all the factory jobs, any kind of 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:55.076 in Philadelphia, any kind of bookstore job, anything was taken. 0:13:55.516 --> 0:13:59.556 And I had no real skills. So I actually went 0:13:59.596 --> 0:14:03.956 to New York looking for work. That was my first preoccupation. 0:14:04.556 --> 0:14:07.076 I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to meet 0:14:07.236 --> 0:14:11.236 people like me who were more outsider types or more 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:14.156 devoted to art. But the first thing I wanted to 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:17.516 find was a job. New York at the time was 0:14:17.676 --> 0:14:20.676 great for people like me because you could get an apartment. 0:14:21.316 --> 0:14:23.716 Even if you only made like sixty dollars a week, 0:14:24.436 --> 0:14:26.996 you could get an apartment for eighty dollars a month. 0:14:27.436 --> 0:14:29.916 I mean it might be filled with cockroaches and stuff, 0:14:29.956 --> 0:14:32.196 but you know, when you're young, I mean I didn't care. 0:14:33.116 --> 0:14:36.636 It was a really good time for people like me. 0:14:36.796 --> 0:14:40.276 And they came from all over. There was also the 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:44.036 fact that a lot of kids that were you know, 0:14:44.156 --> 0:14:46.676 gay kids, which we didn't even have that term then, 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:49.956 but a lot of kids that were from all over 0:14:49.996 --> 0:14:55.196 America who were thrown out by their families, disowned or 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:59.116 were abused in their neighborhoods or down south or wherever 0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:02.836 they were from. They all migrated to New York City 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:05.836 because New York City was you know, you can say 0:15:05.876 --> 0:15:10.036 anything about, you know, the problems with the police or stuff. 0:15:10.076 --> 0:15:14.356 And but at that time, considering where a lot of 0:15:14.396 --> 0:15:18.356 us came from and what the kind of abuse you 0:15:18.396 --> 0:15:22.796 would get if you were different, just dress indifferent was 0:15:22.876 --> 0:15:25.956 so strong that to come to a place like New 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:28.916 York City where nobody cared, you could dress the way 0:15:28.916 --> 0:15:32.756 you wanted. You know, you could reinvent yourself, you could 0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:38.156 be you know, really you know, any sexual persuasion at 0:15:38.196 --> 0:15:44.636 least to a point at least among a like minded society. Yeah, 0:15:44.756 --> 0:15:47.916 how did you meet Robert Maplethorpe. I met him, you know, 0:15:48.036 --> 0:15:51.436 first I met him in Brooklyn. I had nowhere to 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:54.316 I came to New York with about five dollars and 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:58.196 no job and nowhere to stay. I knew a couple 0:15:58.196 --> 0:16:01.716 of people who went to Pratt University, but I had 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:05.476 forgotten that it was summertime and there was nobody there. 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:09.596 And when I went to their apartments, some of them 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.916 had moved out, and one of the people I was 0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:16.116 looking for had moved out, and Robert was staying there. 0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:21.236 And I was just directed to Robert. Asked Robert, asked him. 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:24.556 They didn't even tell me his name. Ask asked my roommate, 0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:27.356 if they know where your friend lives? And he did 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:30.396 so he led me to where my friend lived. My 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:34.516 friend was away, and I wound up sleep in the 0:16:34.596 --> 0:16:37.476 hallway or on the stoop on the third of July, 0:16:37.996 --> 0:16:40.756 because I remember I woke up it. I woke up 0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:44.276 at the fourth of July, you know, sitting asleep on 0:16:44.356 --> 0:16:47.556 the stoop with firecrackers going off, and it was all 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:50.756 these kids setting off firecrackers. Because I had forgotten that 0:16:50.796 --> 0:16:55.436 it was Independence Day, and indeed I was independent, and 0:16:55.476 --> 0:16:59.116 then I just surened upitously met him a couple of times, 0:16:59.196 --> 0:17:02.956 and one afternoon or one evening he sort of rescued 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:08.276 me from a difficult situation and we started talking. And 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:11.436 we walked around the village all night for hours, talking, 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:15.116 and Robert was on acid. But I had never even 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:18.156 seen acid in person. I had only read about it 0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:21.596 like an Anais Ninn or Henry Miller books. I'd never 0:17:22.116 --> 0:17:25.476 seen anybody on acid. And we just talked all night, 0:17:25.556 --> 0:17:27.836 and then in the end he said, do you have 0:17:27.836 --> 0:17:30.436 a place to stay? And I said no, and neither 0:17:30.556 --> 0:17:33.956 did he because of different circumstances. Neither one of us 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:37.956 had an apartment, but he had the key to somebody 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:41.956 else's apartment who was away. And then we went there 0:17:41.996 --> 0:17:45.796 and sat up talking till dawn, and then we never 0:17:45.876 --> 0:17:50.596 parted until we did. Yeah, well, I'd found somebody like me, 0:17:50.956 --> 0:17:55.116 somebody who had been disenfranchised, someone who had been sort 0:17:55.156 --> 0:17:59.396 of disowned by his father, someone who wanted to devote 0:17:59.436 --> 0:18:02.316 himself to art. You know, the perfect boy to meet 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:05.636 at twenty years old. I mean, just kids, it's this 0:18:05.916 --> 0:18:09.036 beautiful thing about your career, that you've produced these transcendent 0:18:09.196 --> 0:18:12.356 things in more than one genre. I mean, there's such 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:14.916 a rare thing to have. I mean, I remember, I 0:18:14.956 --> 0:18:17.396 didn't really know much about you until I read Just Kids. 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:20.556 I thought was one of the most beautiful love stories 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:23.036 I've ever read. Oh thank you. But then I realized, oh, 0:18:23.036 --> 0:18:24.956 this has written by someone who has also produced a 0:18:25.076 --> 0:18:29.076 kind of the whole series of iconic albums as well. 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:32.756 I mean that that kind of double threat is very impressive. Well, 0:18:33.316 --> 0:18:35.716 it's it's it's just the way I am. I mean, 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:38.036 believe me. When I was young old, I wanted to 0:18:38.036 --> 0:18:40.996 be was an abstract expressionist painter. I would have been 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:44.916 happy just being like Joan Mitchell or Dakooning or somebody. 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:47.556 And I do produce. I have produced a lot of 0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:52.956 visual work, but it's just part of me. What made 0:18:52.956 --> 0:18:57.316 it even more complicated wasn't just that I wrote poetry 0:18:57.396 --> 0:19:02.196 and then you know, obviously have written books and recorded. 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:07.276 Then to throw performing into the mix, which that that 0:19:07.396 --> 0:19:09.156 was just another one. I thought, Oh my god. I 0:19:09.436 --> 0:19:12.396 just Robert always used to worry about me, say can't 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:14.996 you just pick one? You know, he would he would 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:17.596 worry that I would spread myself too thin. But it's 0:19:17.716 --> 0:19:22.956 just as part of my jumping being personality, I suppose. 0:19:23.196 --> 0:19:28.036 But I do what calls me for different reasons. Does 0:19:28.076 --> 0:19:31.756 it feel different to create music than to create other 0:19:31.836 --> 0:19:34.876 kinds of art? Well, I'm not really a musician. I 0:19:34.916 --> 0:19:37.116 don't create a whole lot of music. I mean, I 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:42.876 write little melodies and they're often similar. It's like, left 0:19:42.916 --> 0:19:44.996 to my own devices, I would be sort of a 0:19:45.036 --> 0:19:48.916 poler you know, polar music player or porch song writer, 0:19:49.436 --> 0:19:53.076 because when I write things on my own, they're like 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:57.556 little porch songs. And I don't really play anything except 0:19:57.596 --> 0:20:01.076 feedback and about four or five chords. And I don't 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:03.996 think like a musician. I have a natural feel for 0:20:04.116 --> 0:20:07.396 melody and might sing to myself walking down the street. 0:20:07.436 --> 0:20:11.116 But I'm not I was married to a great musician. 0:20:11.276 --> 0:20:15.076 I know, I've seen how a musician's mind works, you know, 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:20.076 and I'm more prone to language. Yeah. Wait, talk about 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:22.556 this a little bit more. What exactly do you mean 0:20:22.596 --> 0:20:25.756 by the way a musicians minds works? Well, I mean 0:20:25.796 --> 0:20:29.316 I can't. I'm just saying that the way that I'm 0:20:29.316 --> 0:20:32.636 obsessed with writing and the way that I really have 0:20:32.716 --> 0:20:35.636 to write every day, I've written almost every day, most 0:20:36.076 --> 0:20:40.116 since I was a kid, and whether anyone sees it 0:20:40.276 --> 0:20:43.436 or not, I would say seventy percent of my writing 0:20:43.436 --> 0:20:48.996 has never been published. I am compelled to write, and musician, 0:20:49.196 --> 0:20:54.996 at least my husband was compelled to translate his you know, dreams, 0:20:55.076 --> 0:21:00.636 his thoughts, his vision into music. And I don't really 0:21:00.636 --> 0:21:05.596 think like that. Yeah, I'm more a performer. And people say, oh, 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:08.316 you're too modest, you don't want to be called a musician. Well, 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:10.076 I don't want to be called a musician because I 0:21:10.116 --> 0:21:14.196 haven't earned that. But I am a performer and I'm 0:21:14.236 --> 0:21:17.196 a strong performer and I have earned that, and that's 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:20.156 good enough for me. We're going to take a quick 0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:22.636 break and then come back with more from Malcolm Gladwell 0:21:22.756 --> 0:21:29.796 and Patti Smith. We're back with more from Malcolm Gladwell's 0:21:29.796 --> 0:21:33.636 interview with Patti Smith. Let's go back to many lives 0:21:33.636 --> 0:21:37.076 of Patti Smith. So life number one is as you 0:21:37.116 --> 0:21:40.356 say that that period ending in seventy five for two 0:21:40.476 --> 0:21:43.796 is what I would say. The next stage is really, 0:21:44.676 --> 0:21:49.116 you know, going out into the world, performing, having a 0:21:49.156 --> 0:21:53.396 public life, which part of me is, you know, I'm 0:21:53.556 --> 0:21:59.276 very reclusive, not very social, and I could spend fourteen 0:21:59.316 --> 0:22:03.196 hours just working on you know, the end of chapter seven. 0:22:03.276 --> 0:22:07.316 You know, I don't crave public life, but it has 0:22:07.396 --> 0:22:11.836 called to me in the seventies. Of course, until I 0:22:11.956 --> 0:22:15.436 left in seventy nine, I became the leader of a band, 0:22:15.556 --> 0:22:17.876 and I'd like that. I'd like that position of being 0:22:18.556 --> 0:22:21.996 sort of a you know, having my people. My brother 0:22:22.156 --> 0:22:24.636 was the head of my crew. I had a small 0:22:24.716 --> 0:22:29.476 loyal group and see in the world and having some 0:22:29.556 --> 0:22:32.996 effect on people, a positive effect on people, or having 0:22:33.036 --> 0:22:36.076 an effect on new artists, or having an effect on 0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:40.796 the disenfranchised all over the world, and that was meaningful. 0:22:41.276 --> 0:22:45.036 So I would say that period it was very demanding 0:22:45.076 --> 0:22:48.116 and very demanding on me physically. But I would say 0:22:48.116 --> 0:22:51.556 that entering public life that took up a lot of 0:22:51.596 --> 0:22:54.196 my time till the end of the seventies, which in 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:59.036 some ways it had its great greatness in it its excitement, 0:22:59.796 --> 0:23:04.196 but in terms of being a writer, it definitely interrupted 0:23:04.436 --> 0:23:08.596 my evolution and interrupted my evolution as a human being. 0:23:09.356 --> 0:23:14.316 Because the stress and the demands of a life like that, 0:23:14.836 --> 0:23:20.876 sometimes one develops demanding habits, or you know, a less 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:25.276 caring or you might be compassionate in terms of the world, 0:23:25.396 --> 0:23:28.916 but in terms of interaction. You know, I was I 0:23:28.956 --> 0:23:30.916 had a lot of hubrists and I had to as 0:23:30.916 --> 0:23:35.236 a girl moving through this period of time, you know, 0:23:35.276 --> 0:23:38.556 I had to be tough, and I could be tough. 0:23:39.036 --> 0:23:41.796 I could be mean as a snake. Actually, what was 0:23:41.836 --> 0:23:45.996 your first important performance as a musician. Well, there's a 0:23:46.036 --> 0:23:48.116 lot of a lot of them, but I would say 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:53.716 one of the most important, just in terms of comprehending 0:23:54.596 --> 0:23:57.876 where we were at, was performing in London at the 0:23:57.956 --> 0:24:02.516 Roundhouse in seventy six. When you know, you go to 0:24:02.756 --> 0:24:05.996 Europe and I think, well, whoever heard of us? You know, 0:24:06.036 --> 0:24:08.636 we didn't have social media and stuff like that. You 0:24:08.716 --> 0:24:11.756 might have your picture in some rock magazines or something, 0:24:12.116 --> 0:24:14.876 and we didn't have any hits or anything like that. 0:24:14.916 --> 0:24:17.076 It was a lot of word of mouth, and so 0:24:17.116 --> 0:24:19.836 we went to play the Roundhouse. It was so packed 0:24:19.876 --> 0:24:23.916 and there were actually young guys coming through a hole 0:24:23.996 --> 0:24:27.996 in the roof jumping down into the crowd to get in. 0:24:28.716 --> 0:24:32.956 And later when I met Paul Simonon from the Clash, 0:24:33.436 --> 0:24:35.396 he told me that he was one of those kids 0:24:35.556 --> 0:24:38.196 who really yes because he didn't have the money to 0:24:38.236 --> 0:24:40.516 get in, so that's how he got in. Was that 0:24:40.636 --> 0:24:45.476 your first international tour. Yeah, it was maybe our first 0:24:45.556 --> 0:24:50.196 job was in Brussels, which was even crazier. It was 0:24:50.236 --> 0:24:54.436 just that first tour. It was just suddenly saying that 0:24:54.796 --> 0:25:00.116 people liked our work in places we never been. Brussels, Finland, 0:25:00.556 --> 0:25:04.596 you know, it was awesome. You know, Sweden we went to, 0:25:05.076 --> 0:25:08.196 and you know, being from you know, lower middle class 0:25:08.236 --> 0:25:12.156 background and never having any money to travel, getting to 0:25:12.196 --> 0:25:15.876 see all these places was awesome. We didn't make all 0:25:15.876 --> 0:25:18.876 that much money or anything, but we didn't care. We 0:25:18.876 --> 0:25:21.956 were getting to see the world and getting to meet 0:25:22.036 --> 0:25:24.996 new people and see, you know, what they were doing. 0:25:25.036 --> 0:25:28.756 And because I started out a little older, because I 0:25:28.836 --> 0:25:30.476