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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all, today we have the one and only

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Speaker 1: Patty Smith on the show. Patty's the prototypical downtown New

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Speaker 1: York City artist. Her nineteen seventy five debut album, Horses

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Speaker 1: is credited as one of the masterpieces of its time.

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Speaker 1: It also cemented her as one of rock and roll's

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Speaker 1: great lyricists, but her writing extends far beyond music. Her

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Speaker 1: twenty ten memoir Just Kids won the National Book Award

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Speaker 1: for its brilliant portrayal of the late sixties bohemian art

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Speaker 1: scene in New York and Patty's experience living in the

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Speaker 1: Chelsea Hotel with famed photographer Robert Maplethorpe. During those years,

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Speaker 1: Patty hung out with Andy Warhol at the Factory and

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Speaker 1: was mentored by great writers like William S. Burrows and

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Speaker 1: Alan Ginsburg. Today, Patty publishes near daily offerings of poems, songs,

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Speaker 1: and serialized fiction on her sub stack. It's a journal

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Speaker 1: of sorts that she started during the solitary days of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. On today's episode, Malcolm Gladwell talks to Patti

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Speaker 1: Smith about her writing in the studio Jimi Hendrix built

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Speaker 1: Electric Lady. It was there, she tells Malcolm that she

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Speaker 1: met Hendrix in nineteen seventy, just weeks before he passed.

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Speaker 1: She also talks about hanging out with and writing lyrics

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Speaker 1: for Janis Joplin, and she recalls the fund that she

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Speaker 1: had during a failed attempt to cover Adele in concert.

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Speaker 1: This is Broken Record liner notes for the Digital Age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell and Patti Smith. Patty,

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us on Broken Record. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We are here in Electric Lady Studios, a place that

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Speaker 1: you have a special relationship too, and little bits of

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Speaker 1: you are all around this place. I noticed as I

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Speaker 1: came in. When did you first come here? What's your

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Speaker 1: what is your history with Electric Lady? Well, my very

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Speaker 1: first time I came was Jimmy's opening party, which I

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Speaker 1: think is August twenty six, nineteen seventy. Jimmy Andris Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Hendricks had a party to open it, and I was

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Speaker 1: writing record reviews and things at the time, and I

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Speaker 1: was invited. So I was very excited because he was

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite artists, and I came, but I

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Speaker 1: wasn't used to going to high profile parties, and so

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Speaker 1: I wound up sitting on the steps and just watching

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Speaker 1: people go back and forth because I didn't I just

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Speaker 1: didn't have the nerve to go in. And Jimmy had

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Speaker 1: to leave the party early. I think he had a flight.

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Speaker 1: He was going to the Isle of Wight and he

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Speaker 1: had that big festival. He was going to London in

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Speaker 1: any event, and he saw me sitting on the steps,

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Speaker 1: and this was nineteen seventy. I was, you know, I

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Speaker 1: had a certain look, you know, I was probably appealing

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Speaker 1: in a certain way. And he laughed and he said, uh,

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Speaker 1: you're not going. He had that really that soft voice,

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Speaker 1: not going to the party. You know, I can't do it.

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Speaker 1: But and I said, well, I'm a little shy, and

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Speaker 1: he said, and he told me he was shy too.

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Speaker 1: He said, actually people didn't understand that about him, but

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Speaker 1: he was shy. And he said it was interesting how

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Speaker 1: you could be such a you know, an aggressive performer,

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Speaker 1: yet still be shy around people. And he told me

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Speaker 1: that he was going to go and do these shows,

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Speaker 1: a handful of shows, and then he was going to

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Speaker 1: come back, go to Woodstock and gather musicians from all

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Speaker 1: over the world and then have them sit in a

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Speaker 1: circle and play just like like or Nick coleman is,

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Speaker 1: as you know, ofteness or whatever, out of tune, different keys,

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Speaker 1: instruments that didn't normally go together meld together, play and

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Speaker 1: play and play till they connected and found a common language.

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Speaker 1: And to him that would be the language of peace.

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Speaker 1: And then he left, and of course we never saw

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Speaker 1: him again. He died in London only maybe a couple

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Speaker 1: weeks later, a few weeks later, I think, which was heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: So that was my introduction to Electric Ladies studios. I

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Speaker 1: didn't even have the nerve to come into inside, and

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Speaker 1: never dreamed that I would one day be recording because

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Speaker 1: I was working in a bookstore and writing reviews. But

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Speaker 1: subsequently I recorded my independent single, Piss Factory Horses here

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Speaker 1: and just a plus of other albums. Over half my

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Speaker 1: albums I've recorded here, including my last album. So it's

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Speaker 1: become quite a home for me. And in terms of

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Speaker 1: you mentioning bits and pieces of me here, you can't

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Speaker 1: imagine what an honor it is still after all these

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Speaker 1: years to walk in here and see horses on the wall,

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Speaker 1: other pictures on the wall. It means a great deal

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Speaker 1: to me. When you came in, you were pointing at

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Speaker 1: a collage on the wall that's not yours is no,

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Speaker 1: the collage is just part of the art that was here.

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Speaker 1: If you go in the bathroom, have you gone to

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Speaker 1: the bathroom here yet? It's Daykupa and it's the same.

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Speaker 1: All the art is the same. All these murals were

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Speaker 1: here when the studio opened. Jimmy commissioned all of these murals.

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Speaker 1: And the bathrooms, the lady and men's room are all

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Speaker 1: dey Coupa, which was very it was a very sixty

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Speaker 1: late sixties thing, and you know, varnished, lots of collage

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Speaker 1: material varnished over and that is probably a piece of

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Speaker 1: artwork that was in one of the offices. But you

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Speaker 1: have to go in the bathroom before you left. But

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Speaker 1: who wait, who else was at the party? Do you remember? No?

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Speaker 1: Because I was, I mean probably Eddie Kramer. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know any of these people. As I said,

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Speaker 1: I was working in a bookstore and I knew a

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Speaker 1: handful of people. I knew some writers from Maxis Kansas City,

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Speaker 1: or had met lou Reid and a few people. But

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Speaker 1: you know this these were like probably you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of celebrities or models or producers,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't part of my world, so I only

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Speaker 1: cared about Jimmie Hendrick. So I don't know who else

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Speaker 1: was at the party at that point. You'd been in

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Speaker 1: New York for how long? I came to New York

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven, July nineteen sixty seven, so like

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. But I went to Brooklyn. I

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Speaker 1: moved to Brooklyn with Robert Maplethorpe, and then we moved

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Speaker 1: to the Chelsea Hotel in August of sixty nine, So

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Speaker 1: this was a year later, so I was still quite

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Speaker 1: the fledgling. Yeah, I want to come back to that period,

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Speaker 1: but I want to do this little exercise first, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, as I look back on your career, it's

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Speaker 1: unusual in many respects, But one of the things it's

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Speaker 1: most unusual about it is it's like, it's really kind

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Speaker 1: of you can give me the exact number, it's really

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Speaker 1: four or five different lives. It's a few. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: want you to go through your tell me all the

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Speaker 1: Patti Smith lives. Well, funny enough, I'm writing a book

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Speaker 1: about that, so but I can I mean, in terms

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Speaker 1: of my public life, my public life started quite slowly

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one. I did you know I came

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Speaker 1: to New York. Really I wanted to be an artist,

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Speaker 1: a visual artist, and really I felt like language for

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Speaker 1: some reason. I was also writing a lot of poetry,

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Speaker 1: and poetry really sort of eclipsed the visual arts. So

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Speaker 1: I really dedicated myself to poetry in the late sixties

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Speaker 1: and early seventies, and I was working in a bookstore.

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Speaker 1: So I would say that period of my life from

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Speaker 1: sixty seven to seventy five was really devoted to writing poetry,

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Speaker 1: starting to perform publicly, and of course being greatly influenced

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Speaker 1: and shepherded by Robert Maplethorpe and then Sam Shephard. These

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Speaker 1: formative years that I had. I was very lucky to

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Speaker 1: have so many good teachers, you know, and breaking my

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Speaker 1: life up. I would say that period from sixty seven

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Speaker 1: to seventy five was my university. I was friends with

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Speaker 1: William Burrows and yes, you've skipped childhood. Yeah, well I'm

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Speaker 1: number nine. I'm not going through that with you. I'm

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Speaker 1: just say poor one is pre New York. Yeah, Part

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Speaker 1: one is pre New York. But in terms of the

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Speaker 1: work that I do, yeah, it would really start when

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Speaker 1: I came to New York because when I came to

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Speaker 1: New York, I was twenty. I was excited about everything.

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Speaker 1: I was well read, I had a good work ethic

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Speaker 1: in terms of writing and doing jobs. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: been working since I was about fourteen, whether in factories

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Speaker 1: or picking blueberries or working in bookstores. So in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty seven, when I came to New York and met Robert,

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Speaker 1: that was when I really, along with him, made a

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Speaker 1: vow to you know, pretty much to art, art being

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Speaker 1: all the fields of art, but I was I became

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Speaker 1: much more devoted to poetry, and that that period was

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Speaker 1: really my learning period. I met a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who helped me along encourage me. Bobby new Wirth encouraged

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Speaker 1: me to write lyrics, Jim Carroll to write poetry. I

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Speaker 1: was so lucky to know William Burrows and Gregory Corso

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Speaker 1: and Alan Ginsburg, and not just as friends but teachers.

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Speaker 1: They looked at my work, they encouraged me, They invited

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Speaker 1: me to read with them and to be somewhat part

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Speaker 1: of their world. Where are you meeting these people in

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Speaker 1: the lobby of the Chelsea Hotel? Mostly, I mean back

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Speaker 1: then Robert and I moved there in sixty nine and

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Speaker 1: there was the l Kyote Bar next door to it,

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Speaker 1: and they all went there. I mean I didn't really drink,

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Speaker 1: but they all went there so you could go and

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Speaker 1: sit in the bar and sit next to Carl Solomon

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Speaker 1: or Terry Southern and William and I had a big

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Speaker 1: crush on Williams, so you know, we became friends. But

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Speaker 1: back then everybody was around, you know, there wasn't the

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Speaker 1: same cult of celebrity. It was just like in the Chelsea.

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Speaker 1: I was living there and so was Janis Joplin living

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Speaker 1: there for a while. Only we all dressed the same.

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Speaker 1: We all listened to the same music. They were a

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Speaker 1: couple of years older than me, some of these people,

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Speaker 1: but we were of the same mindset. And yeah, some

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Speaker 1: of them are real well known, but we all commingled.

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Speaker 1: And because every all of us were like as I

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Speaker 1: would say, outside society. Janis Joplin was big, but also

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Speaker 1: she couldn't go into fancy hotels because of the way

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Speaker 1: she dressed. And we all talked and hung out together.

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Speaker 1: But I had very good mentors very early on. For instance,

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Speaker 1: Bobby knew Worth, who I recognized from being and don't

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Speaker 1: look back. Bobby was also a painter and a songwriter,

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Speaker 1: is I mean? And Bobby introduced me. He was tour

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Speaker 1: managing Janice Joplin at the time, and she was writing material,

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Speaker 1: and Bobby liked my poems and he wanted me. He

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Speaker 1: encouraged me to write some lyrics for her. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of encouragement from people. I was

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Speaker 1: sort of an unusual I was like Colden Coffield at

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Speaker 1: the Chelsea, a little mix of Holden Coffield or Eloise

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Speaker 1: at the Plaza. I don't know, I was not even

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Speaker 1: though I was sort of a South Jersey hick. But

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Speaker 1: I was really well read. And I was also probably

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Speaker 1: one of the few people who wasn't stoned or speeding

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Speaker 1: half the time because I didn't take drugs and I

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Speaker 1: had a steady job, which meant I could be hit

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Speaker 1: for a couple of dollars here and there. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I can't say why these really great people, you know,

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Speaker 1: took me in under their wing, but they did. I'm

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Speaker 1: struck in that era, that world that you're inhabiting, in

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Speaker 1: this sort of first stage sixty seven to seventy five,

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Speaker 1: how many people are like you, outsiders who come to

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Speaker 1: New York I'm fascinated by the notion of people who arrived.

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Speaker 1: The difference between arriving to New York from as you did,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you call yourself a hick from South Jersey,

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Speaker 1: difference between encountering all of what was going on culturally. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you one thing. I came to New York

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Speaker 1: for a job. That's why I mean. In South Jersey

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of work. And then they had

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Speaker 1: the New York Shipyard closed down in nineteen sixty seven

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Speaker 1: or sixty six, and thirty thousand people went out of work,

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Speaker 1: and there wasn't any work. I mean yet the Columbia

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Speaker 1: record pressing plant near where I lived, or the Campbell

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Speaker 1: soup plant. But all the factory jobs, any kind of

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, any kind of bookstore job, anything was taken.

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Speaker 1: And I had no real skills. So I actually went

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Speaker 1: to New York looking for work. That was my first preoccupation.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to meet

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Speaker 1: people like me who were more outsider types or more

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Speaker 1: devoted to art. But the first thing I wanted to

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Speaker 1: find was a job. New York at the time was

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Speaker 1: great for people like me because you could get an apartment.

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Speaker 1: Even if you only made like sixty dollars a week,

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Speaker 1: you could get an apartment for eighty dollars a month.

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Speaker 1: I mean it might be filled with cockroaches and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but you know, when you're young, I mean I didn't care.

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Speaker 1: It was a really good time for people like me.

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Speaker 1: And they came from all over. There was also the

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Speaker 1: fact that a lot of kids that were you know,

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Speaker 1: gay kids, which we didn't even have that term then,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of kids that were from all over

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Speaker 1: America who were thrown out by their families, disowned or

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Speaker 1: were abused in their neighborhoods or down south or wherever

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Speaker 1: they were from. They all migrated to New York City

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Speaker 1: because New York City was you know, you can say

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Speaker 1: anything about, you know, the problems with the police or stuff.

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Speaker 1: And but at that time, considering where a lot of

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Speaker 1: us came from and what the kind of abuse you

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Speaker 1: would get if you were different, just dress indifferent was

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Speaker 1: so strong that to come to a place like New

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Speaker 1: York City where nobody cared, you could dress the way

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Speaker 1: you wanted. You know, you could reinvent yourself, you could

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Speaker 1: be you know, really you know, any sexual persuasion at

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Speaker 1: least to a point at least among a like minded society. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how did you meet Robert Maplethorpe. I met him, you know,

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Speaker 1: first I met him in Brooklyn. I had nowhere to

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Speaker 1: I came to New York with about five dollars and

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Speaker 1: no job and nowhere to stay. I knew a couple

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Speaker 1: of people who went to Pratt University, but I had

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Speaker 1: forgotten that it was summertime and there was nobody there.

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Speaker 1: And when I went to their apartments, some of them

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Speaker 1: had moved out, and one of the people I was

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Speaker 1: looking for had moved out, and Robert was staying there.

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Speaker 1: And I was just directed to Robert. Asked Robert, asked him.

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Speaker 1: They didn't even tell me his name. Ask asked my roommate,

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Speaker 1: if they know where your friend lives? And he did

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Speaker 1: so he led me to where my friend lived. My

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Speaker 1: friend was away, and I wound up sleep in the

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Speaker 1: hallway or on the stoop on the third of July,

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Speaker 1: because I remember I woke up it. I woke up

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Speaker 1: at the fourth of July, you know, sitting asleep on

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Speaker 1: the stoop with firecrackers going off, and it was all

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Speaker 1: these kids setting off firecrackers. Because I had forgotten that

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Speaker 1: it was Independence Day, and indeed I was independent, and

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Speaker 1: then I just surened upitously met him a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: and one afternoon or one evening he sort of rescued

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Speaker 1: me from a difficult situation and we started talking. And

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Speaker 1: we walked around the village all night for hours, talking,

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Speaker 1: and Robert was on acid. But I had never even

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Speaker 1: seen acid in person. I had only read about it

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Speaker 1: like an Anais Ninn or Henry Miller books. I'd never

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Speaker 1: seen anybody on acid. And we just talked all night,

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Speaker 1: and then in the end he said, do you have

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Speaker 1: a place to stay? And I said no, and neither

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Speaker 1: did he because of different circumstances. Neither one of us

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Speaker 1: had an apartment, but he had the key to somebody

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Speaker 1: else's apartment who was away. And then we went there

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Speaker 1: and sat up talking till dawn, and then we never

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Speaker 1: parted until we did. Yeah, well, I'd found somebody like me,

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Speaker 1: somebody who had been disenfranchised, someone who had been sort

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Speaker 1: of disowned by his father, someone who wanted to devote

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Speaker 1: himself to art. You know, the perfect boy to meet

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Speaker 1: at twenty years old. I mean, just kids, it's this

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00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:09,036
Speaker 1: beautiful thing about your career, that you've produced these transcendent

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Speaker 1: things in more than one genre. I mean, there's such

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Speaker 1: a rare thing to have. I mean, I remember, I

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Speaker 1: didn't really know much about you until I read Just Kids.

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Speaker 1: I thought was one of the most beautiful love stories

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Speaker 1: I've ever read. Oh thank you. But then I realized, oh,

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Speaker 1: this has written by someone who has also produced a

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Speaker 1: kind of the whole series of iconic albums as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean that that kind of double threat is very impressive. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's just the way I am. I mean,

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Speaker 1: believe me. When I was young old, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be was an abstract expressionist painter. I would have been

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Speaker 1: happy just being like Joan Mitchell or Dakooning or somebody.

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Speaker 1: And I do produce. I have produced a lot of

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Speaker 1: visual work, but it's just part of me. What made

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Speaker 1: it even more complicated wasn't just that I wrote poetry

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Speaker 1: and then you know, obviously have written books and recorded.

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Speaker 1: Then to throw performing into the mix, which that that

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Speaker 1: was just another one. I thought, Oh my god. I

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Speaker 1: just Robert always used to worry about me, say can't

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Speaker 1: you just pick one? You know, he would he would

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Speaker 1: worry that I would spread myself too thin. But it's

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Speaker 1: just as part of my jumping being personality, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: But I do what calls me for different reasons. Does

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Speaker 1: it feel different to create music than to create other

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Speaker 1: kinds of art? Well, I'm not really a musician. I

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Speaker 1: don't create a whole lot of music. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: write little melodies and they're often similar. It's like, left

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Speaker 1: to my own devices, I would be sort of a

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Speaker 1: poler you know, polar music player or porch song writer,

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Speaker 1: because when I write things on my own, they're like

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Speaker 1: little porch songs. And I don't really play anything except

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Speaker 1: feedback and about four or five chords. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think like a musician. I have a natural feel for

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Speaker 1: melody and might sing to myself walking down the street.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not I was married to a great musician.

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Speaker 1: I know, I've seen how a musician's mind works, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm more prone to language. Yeah. Wait, talk about

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Speaker 1: this a little bit more. What exactly do you mean

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Speaker 1: by the way a musicians minds works? Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: I can't. I'm just saying that the way that I'm

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Speaker 1: obsessed with writing and the way that I really have

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Speaker 1: to write every day, I've written almost every day, most

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Speaker 1: since I was a kid, and whether anyone sees it

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Speaker 1: or not, I would say seventy percent of my writing

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Speaker 1: has never been published. I am compelled to write, and musician,

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Speaker 1: at least my husband was compelled to translate his you know, dreams,

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Speaker 1: his thoughts, his vision into music. And I don't really

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Speaker 1: think like that. Yeah, I'm more a performer. And people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're too modest, you don't want to be called a musician. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be called a musician because I

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Speaker 1: haven't earned that. But I am a performer and I'm

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Speaker 1: a strong performer and I have earned that, and that's

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Speaker 1: good enough for me. We're going to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and then come back with more from Malcolm Gladwell

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Speaker 1: and Patti Smith. We're back with more from Malcolm Gladwell's

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Speaker 1: interview with Patti Smith. Let's go back to many lives

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Speaker 1: of Patti Smith. So life number one is as you

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Speaker 1: say that that period ending in seventy five for two

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Speaker 1: is what I would say. The next stage is really,

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Speaker 1: you know, going out into the world, performing, having a

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Speaker 1: public life, which part of me is, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: very reclusive, not very social, and I could spend fourteen

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Speaker 1: hours just working on you know, the end of chapter seven.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't crave public life, but it has

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Speaker 1: called to me in the seventies. Of course, until I

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Speaker 1: left in seventy nine, I became the leader of a band,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like that. I'd like that position of being

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Speaker 1: sort of a you know, having my people. My brother

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Speaker 1: was the head of my crew. I had a small

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Speaker 1: loyal group and see in the world and having some

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Speaker 1: effect on people, a positive effect on people, or having

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Speaker 1: an effect on new artists, or having an effect on

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Speaker 1: the disenfranchised all over the world, and that was meaningful.

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Speaker 1: So I would say that period it was very demanding

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Speaker 1: and very demanding on me physically. But I would say

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Speaker 1: that entering public life that took up a lot of

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Speaker 1: my time till the end of the seventies, which in

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Speaker 1: some ways it had its great greatness in it its excitement,

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Speaker 1: but in terms of being a writer, it definitely interrupted

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Speaker 1: my evolution and interrupted my evolution as a human being.

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Speaker 1: Because the stress and the demands of a life like that,

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Speaker 1: sometimes one develops demanding habits, or you know, a less

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Speaker 1: caring or you might be compassionate in terms of the world,

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00:23:25,396 --> 00:23:28,916
Speaker 1: but in terms of interaction. You know, I was I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of hubrists and I had to as

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Speaker 1: a girl moving through this period of time, you know,

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Speaker 1: I had to be tough, and I could be tough.

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Speaker 1: I could be mean as a snake. Actually, what was

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Speaker 1: your first important performance as a musician. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of them, but I would say

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Speaker 1: one of the most important, just in terms of comprehending

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Speaker 1: where we were at, was performing in London at the

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Speaker 1: Roundhouse in seventy six. When you know, you go to

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Speaker 1: Europe and I think, well, whoever heard of us? You know,

378
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,636
Speaker 1: we didn't have social media and stuff like that. You

379
00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:11,756
Speaker 1: might have your picture in some rock magazines or something,

380
00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:14,876
Speaker 1: and we didn't have any hits or anything like that.

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00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:17,076
Speaker 1: It was a lot of word of mouth, and so

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Speaker 1: we went to play the Roundhouse. It was so packed

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Speaker 1: and there were actually young guys coming through a hole

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Speaker 1: in the roof jumping down into the crowd to get in.

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Speaker 1: And later when I met Paul Simonon from the Clash,

386
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Speaker 1: he told me that he was one of those kids

387
00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:38,196
Speaker 1: who really yes because he didn't have the money to

388
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Speaker 1: get in, so that's how he got in. Was that

389
00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:45,476
Speaker 1: your first international tour. Yeah, it was maybe our first

390
00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:50,196
Speaker 1: job was in Brussels, which was even crazier. It was

391
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Speaker 1: just that first tour. It was just suddenly saying that

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Speaker 1: people liked our work in places we never been. Brussels, Finland,

393
00:25:00,556 --> 00:25:04,596
Speaker 1: you know, it was awesome. You know, Sweden we went to,

394
00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:08,196
Speaker 1: and you know, being from you know, lower middle class

395
00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:12,156
Speaker 1: background and never having any money to travel, getting to

396
00:25:12,196 --> 00:25:15,876
Speaker 1: see all these places was awesome. We didn't make all

397
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Speaker 1: that much money or anything, but we didn't care. We

398
00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:21,956
Speaker 1: were getting to see the world and getting to meet

399
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Speaker 1: new people and see, you know, what they were doing.

400
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Speaker 1: And because I started out a little older, because I

401
00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:30,476
Speaker 1: was in my I don't know how old I was,

402
00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:33,876
Speaker 1: but you know, we had a lot of younger kids

403
00:25:34,076 --> 00:25:38,796
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty who wanted to do things, and a lot

404
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:42,996
Speaker 1: of girls checking out the situation. And what I always

405
00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 1: told him is I had no particular gifts. If I

406
00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,156
Speaker 1: could do it, you could do it. If you have

407
00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:53,396
Speaker 1: a vision and if you have will and you have

408
00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:56,876
Speaker 1: a benevolent vision that you want to share with people,

409
00:25:57,356 --> 00:25:59,636
Speaker 1: you know, in some guts, you can do it. I'm

410
00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:03,436
Speaker 1: curious about that era in rock and roll is the

411
00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:07,956
Speaker 1: relationship of the artist to the audience in that era

412
00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:12,556
Speaker 1: mid seventies, different than it is today. I don't know mine,

413
00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,596
Speaker 1: isn't you know. I can't say because I don't really

414
00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:18,156
Speaker 1: go to concerts, you know, I don't really. When I

415
00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:21,876
Speaker 1: was younger, I learned a lot about how to interact

416
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:24,916
Speaker 1: with the audience from Johnny Winter because I had a

417
00:26:24,996 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 1: job sort of helping with Johnny. Johnny was completely color blind,

418
00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:31,556
Speaker 1: and when I was living at the Chelseas, so was

419
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:35,236
Speaker 1: Johnny and Steve Paul, his manager, actually gave me a

420
00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:39,036
Speaker 1: job because I was very trustworthy, just you know, walking

421
00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 1: with Johnny when he had to cross a lot of

422
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,796
Speaker 1: streets and things because he couldn't tell the red from

423
00:26:43,836 --> 00:26:47,436
Speaker 1: the green traffic lights, things like that. I went to

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00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:51,596
Speaker 1: London once with them, just to make sure Johnny was

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00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:54,876
Speaker 1: maneuvering the streets well. And so I went to a

426
00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:57,556
Speaker 1: lot of his concerts. And Johnny was one of the

427
00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:00,596
Speaker 1: most in all my life, one of the most electric

428
00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:05,396
Speaker 1: performers I ever saw. Just such a great singer, such

429
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:08,436
Speaker 1: a great guitar player, and fearless. He was the first

430
00:27:08,476 --> 00:27:11,916
Speaker 1: person I saw jump into the crowd with an electric guitar.

431
00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:16,076
Speaker 1: Just so much energy and so much interaction with the

432
00:27:16,156 --> 00:27:19,276
Speaker 1: people looking them straight in the eye. I mean because

433
00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:22,756
Speaker 1: I had I was like into like Bob Dylan, or

434
00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:26,156
Speaker 1: when I was younger, Lou Reid or the Velvet Underground.

435
00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:29,476
Speaker 1: They were all were really cool, you know, they didn't interact.

436
00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:32,556
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that critically. I love that, you know,

437
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:36,836
Speaker 1: but Johnny Winner was a totally different animal, and where

438
00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:39,196
Speaker 1: I would have imagined I would have been more like

439
00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:42,676
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, because I really modeled myself after Bob Dylan,

440
00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:45,756
Speaker 1: I was really more like Johnny I just I don't

441
00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,476
Speaker 1: know where it comes from, but I can be sort

442
00:27:48,516 --> 00:27:51,436
Speaker 1: of like stand there like Edith poff into a little song.

443
00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:54,276
Speaker 1: But especially when I was young, I was I was

444
00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:57,396
Speaker 1: an animal. Tell me what that means, well, I just

445
00:27:57,476 --> 00:27:59,716
Speaker 1: mean I was fearly. You know, I was fearless. I

446
00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:03,236
Speaker 1: would jump off at piano on my knees. I you know,

447
00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: I would play like I had the loudest amplifier in

448
00:28:06,916 --> 00:28:10,596
Speaker 1: you know when we played like improvation or feedback and

449
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:13,956
Speaker 1: put my foot through an amp. If I was pissed off,

450
00:28:13,956 --> 00:28:16,356
Speaker 1: I would just could rip. I had the heaviest strings

451
00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:19,396
Speaker 1: on my electric guitar. I could just slide my hand

452
00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:22,596
Speaker 1: to rip them out. In one I ripped a pickup

453
00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:27,036
Speaker 1: out of my duasnic Ones. I just had so much

454
00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:31,716
Speaker 1: concentrated energy. And I'm not saying I don't have energy now,

455
00:28:31,756 --> 00:28:35,156
Speaker 1: but at seventy five, I paced myself different. Yeah. Every

456
00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:37,996
Speaker 1: once in a while though that comes through. You know,

457
00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:42,716
Speaker 1: I still she's still there, She's just paces herself. What

458
00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,076
Speaker 1: is it? Is it? You call it energy? Is it frustration?

459
00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:50,556
Speaker 1: Is it anger? Is it enthusiasm? Now? It's just pure energy? Yeah,

460
00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:54,116
Speaker 1: pure energy. And that's what you saw on Johnny Winter. Yeah,

461
00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:57,316
Speaker 1: because it was It wasn't even political. I didn't really

462
00:28:57,356 --> 00:29:01,636
Speaker 1: have I mean, of course being it's always been a

463
00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:05,876
Speaker 1: humanist or something, but I wasn't. What I did was

464
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:09,876
Speaker 1: only political. It was personally political. What I wanted to

465
00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 1: do was create space for new people because I perceived

466
00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:18,196
Speaker 1: that I loved rock and roll. I loved it. I

467
00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 1: was brought up with it, danced to it, listened to it,

468
00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:25,396
Speaker 1: daydream to it. And I didn't want to see it

469
00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:32,796
Speaker 1: become like stadium ACX, glamorous acts, all about just indulgence,

470
00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:35,956
Speaker 1: and uh, I don't know. I didn't really like the

471
00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:40,916
Speaker 1: direction it was going into. I wanted to preserve some

472
00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:43,196
Speaker 1: of the I mean it might seem like a lot

473
00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:45,796
Speaker 1: of hubrists for a young girl that you know, but

474
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:49,076
Speaker 1: I had a lot of hubrists. I mean I could

475
00:29:49,116 --> 00:29:51,796
Speaker 1: have liked played Coreolanus or something. I had so much

476
00:29:52,036 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 1: humorous but I mean, think of like who we lost

477
00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,676
Speaker 1: my generation. We lost when I was a teenager, President

478
00:29:58,756 --> 00:30:02,476
Speaker 1: Kennedy got shot, and then Martin Luther King, you know,

479
00:30:02,516 --> 00:30:05,276
Speaker 1: then Bobby Kennedy, and then you know, we have our

480
00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 1: our musicians that we love, and then Brian Jones died,

481
00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:12,676
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Hendricks died, and Jim Morrison died, and Janis

482
00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:15,956
Speaker 1: Joplin died. I mean, these were like such important voices,

483
00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:19,716
Speaker 1: and you know, they were just how I imagined. I

484
00:30:19,556 --> 00:30:23,316
Speaker 1: imagined that, you know, music of the future was going

485
00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:27,556
Speaker 1: to be Jimmie Hendricks, Coltrane, you know, all the all

486
00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:31,156
Speaker 1: the people that I loved, and we just lost them

487
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:36,916
Speaker 1: really quickly, lost Coltrane early, that poetic voice that was

488
00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:41,236
Speaker 1: so strong in the late sixties. And I didn't want

489
00:30:41,236 --> 00:30:43,476
Speaker 1: to see it go. I didn't want to see it

490
00:30:43,476 --> 00:30:48,356
Speaker 1: diffused into some other place. But you know, also I

491
00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:53,196
Speaker 1: was highly opinionated, so I was just trying to kick

492
00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,596
Speaker 1: open doors. I only expected to do one record, you know,

493
00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:58,916
Speaker 1: Clive Davis asked me to do a record. I was

494
00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:02,116
Speaker 1: amazed at that. Fine. I did a record, and then

495
00:31:02,116 --> 00:31:03,596
Speaker 1: I was just going to go back to you know,

496
00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:06,996
Speaker 1: back to the bookstore, back to Ryton poetry. But I

497
00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:09,596
Speaker 1: did have an aim with that record was to create

498
00:31:09,716 --> 00:31:14,476
Speaker 1: space for new people, for people who became Michael Stipe,

499
00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:18,956
Speaker 1: you know, for whoever. That was my goal. So when

500
00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:21,156
Speaker 1: you're on that initial tour of Europe and though you

501
00:31:21,236 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 1: know the kids are climbing through the hole in the

502
00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:26,276
Speaker 1: in the roof to get into the crowd, is that

503
00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:29,636
Speaker 1: were there, that's what they're responding to. I didn't take

504
00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:33,156
Speaker 1: it personally like they were responding to me. They were

505
00:31:33,196 --> 00:31:37,556
Speaker 1: responding to something new that they could do themselves, or

506
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:41,436
Speaker 1: maybe Eclipse. And that's what I wanted. I didn't want

507
00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:45,116
Speaker 1: to be the king or queen or princess of anything.

508
00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,476
Speaker 1: I just wanted to, you know, shake things up. What

509
00:31:48,596 --> 00:31:51,076
Speaker 1: were you playing in those concerts other than your own work?

510
00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:53,436
Speaker 1: What were you playing? Well? I mean, my own work

511
00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:57,796
Speaker 1: also incorporated you know, our version of Land of a

512
00:31:57,836 --> 00:32:02,036
Speaker 1: Thousand Dances and Gloria and just our songs, reggae songs.

513
00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:04,636
Speaker 1: If I liked a certain R and B song. We

514
00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:08,036
Speaker 1: try it, but mostly our own stuff. Is there a

515
00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:11,436
Speaker 1: difference in the way you approach covering a song verses

516
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,396
Speaker 1: one of your own. It depends on the song. Like

517
00:32:14,596 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 1: sometimes Land of a Thousand Dances really a catalyst for

518
00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:23,996
Speaker 1: an apocalypse, you know, it was sometimes a song because

519
00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:27,356
Speaker 1: I was just starting out. We started out with piana

520
00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:30,636
Speaker 1: like Lenny K my pianist and I and it was

521
00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:36,436
Speaker 1: basically we started out musically mostly for three chord songs

522
00:32:36,476 --> 00:32:39,996
Speaker 1: that I could rap over. I wasn't particularly a great singer.

523
00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:43,316
Speaker 1: I didn't know much about singing. I mean I sang

524
00:32:43,356 --> 00:32:46,156
Speaker 1: in like the school choir and stuff. But it was

525
00:32:46,276 --> 00:32:50,636
Speaker 1: more a vehicle for me to improvise poetry. You know.

526
00:32:50,716 --> 00:32:55,276
Speaker 1: Horses grew from a lot of improvisation, like being at

527
00:32:55,436 --> 00:32:58,636
Speaker 1: CBGB's in doing a twenty two minute version of Land

528
00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:01,916
Speaker 1: of a Thousand Dances. That was a lot of poetry.

529
00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:05,836
Speaker 1: And that's why I think like William Burrows and Allen

530
00:33:05,916 --> 00:33:09,636
Speaker 1: Ginsberg and Gregory they liked me. They liked the fusion

531
00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:15,196
Speaker 1: of this energy and youth but with a semi sophisticated

532
00:33:16,836 --> 00:33:21,996
Speaker 1: poetic aspect. Yeah, But then you know, also there's certain

533
00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:24,836
Speaker 1: songs that I'll just do as the song. I do

534
00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,316
Speaker 1: it much better now because I'm a better singer than

535
00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:29,796
Speaker 1: I was when I was younger. I mostly sang out

536
00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:32,756
Speaker 1: on my nose when I was younger. You know, for instance,

537
00:33:32,756 --> 00:33:37,356
Speaker 1: what song these days we did, um Blame It on

538
00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:42,356
Speaker 1: the Sun by Stevie Wonder, just do it really nice,

539
00:33:42,636 --> 00:33:48,196
Speaker 1: respectful version? I covered Stay, the one that Rhiannon Mickey

540
00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:52,836
Speaker 1: Echo did. I love covering songs. Every once while, I

541
00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:54,916
Speaker 1: have a disaster where I try to cover a song

542
00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:58,276
Speaker 1: where I don't really I don't really have the range

543
00:33:58,356 --> 00:34:00,836
Speaker 1: or the technique to do that song, but I'll get

544
00:34:00,876 --> 00:34:02,996
Speaker 1: so enamored with a song I was trying. Example of

545
00:34:02,996 --> 00:34:05,516
Speaker 1: a disaster, Oh I did the worst. It was rolling

546
00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:08,316
Speaker 1: in the Deep. I tried doing that and it was

547
00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:10,756
Speaker 1: so bad that I just was laughing, and the people

548
00:34:10,796 --> 00:34:12,716
Speaker 1: knew it was bad, and they were just saying, do

549
00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:18,236
Speaker 1: it anyway. But I just loved I loved that chorus,

550
00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,276
Speaker 1: you know. And I used to try to do four

551
00:34:22,356 --> 00:34:25,836
Speaker 1: top songs, but I couldn't quite get like Bernadette or

552
00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:30,716
Speaker 1: I'll be There. I'd love these great choruses. But you know,

553
00:34:30,756 --> 00:34:33,516
Speaker 1: I've gotten better. I do a lot of Neil Young

554
00:34:33,596 --> 00:34:36,756
Speaker 1: covers because I love his lyrics, but also we sing

555
00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:40,356
Speaker 1: pretty much in the same key. I can keep the

556
00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:44,036
Speaker 1: songs in Neil's key and do them. You've never collaborated

557
00:34:44,076 --> 00:34:47,036
Speaker 1: with him, have you? No? I mean I've improvised on

558
00:34:47,156 --> 00:34:50,356
Speaker 1: stage with them, but no, I haven't really collaborated with

559
00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:54,396
Speaker 1: really anybody. Yeah, you mentioned Michael Stipe. We talked with

560
00:34:54,516 --> 00:34:57,916
Speaker 1: that idea of creating opportunities for others. Does he fit

561
00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:01,476
Speaker 1: into that well, Michael Stipe. When I heard his music

562
00:35:01,596 --> 00:35:04,556
Speaker 1: or saw you know, sometimes Fred would watch MTV to

563
00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:08,996
Speaker 1: see what was happening musically, and I was very taken

564
00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:13,916
Speaker 1: with rim. And Fred used to tease me when, you know,

565
00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:16,956
Speaker 1: because I'd be like washing dishes or something. He'd say, Tricia,

566
00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:19,276
Speaker 1: you're boys on and I come out and it would

567
00:35:19,276 --> 00:35:22,956
Speaker 1: be like Michael singing losing my religion or something. And

568
00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:28,796
Speaker 1: because because I really liked his music. And when Fred died,

569
00:35:29,596 --> 00:35:33,676
Speaker 1: my first Valentine's Day without Fred, the phone rang that

570
00:35:33,796 --> 00:35:38,556
Speaker 1: night and this voice came over the I don't think

571
00:35:38,556 --> 00:35:41,436
Speaker 1: Michael would mind me. I think I've told this before,

572
00:35:41,516 --> 00:35:48,156
Speaker 1: but it was Michael, Michael Stipe calling me from Barcelona.

573
00:35:48,316 --> 00:35:50,396
Speaker 1: He was on the road and he was a bit

574
00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:53,116
Speaker 1: I think he had had a couple of drinks and

575
00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:56,636
Speaker 1: it had occurred to him. I guess he really he

576
00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:59,716
Speaker 1: really liked me, He really liked our music. He was

577
00:35:59,796 --> 00:36:03,276
Speaker 1: inspired by horses when he was younger, and it occurred

578
00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:06,356
Speaker 1: to him. Because this is the beauty of Michael, He's

579
00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:12,196
Speaker 1: so human and has such a compassionate, empathetic sense. It

580
00:36:12,276 --> 00:36:16,316
Speaker 1: occurred to him that I was recently widowed and I

581
00:36:16,396 --> 00:36:19,796
Speaker 1: was going to have my first Valentine's Day without my husband,

582
00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:25,476
Speaker 1: who obviously I greatly loved. So he called to wish

583
00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:30,036
Speaker 1: me happy Valentine's Day, and slowly, I mean eventually I

584
00:36:30,076 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 1: got to meet him. Saul's concerts and when I came

585
00:36:34,876 --> 00:36:38,316
Speaker 1: to New York it was a huge challenge for me

586
00:36:38,476 --> 00:36:45,276
Speaker 1: to really came financially empty handed with my kids, and Michael,

587
00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:48,596
Speaker 1: who I was just getting to know without going into

588
00:36:48,676 --> 00:36:52,076
Speaker 1: a lot of details, made it possible for me to

589
00:36:52,116 --> 00:36:54,596
Speaker 1: start a new life in New York City, and we've

590
00:36:54,596 --> 00:36:59,116
Speaker 1: been so close ever since. I mean, he just did that,

591
00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:02,756
Speaker 1: and of course I did. It inspired me to work

592
00:37:03,156 --> 00:37:06,516
Speaker 1: as hard as I could to earn his trust in

593
00:37:06,596 --> 00:37:10,156
Speaker 1: me and also his belief in me that I could

594
00:37:10,756 --> 00:37:14,236
Speaker 1: get back on my feet and take care of myself

595
00:37:14,276 --> 00:37:17,716
Speaker 1: and my family if I just had a helping hand.

596
00:37:19,156 --> 00:37:21,236
Speaker 1: And I'm not ashamed to say that I needed one.

597
00:37:21,756 --> 00:37:26,236
Speaker 1: And now we're just loving friends. It was interesting, though,

598
00:37:26,316 --> 00:37:29,636
Speaker 1: just by chance, I got nominated to be in the

599
00:37:29,636 --> 00:37:32,396
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame like seven or eight times, and finally

600
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:34,876
Speaker 1: I did get in. I think it was two thousand

601
00:37:34,876 --> 00:37:37,636
Speaker 1: and seven, the same year as Michael, and I always

602
00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:41,276
Speaker 1: imagined that if I ever did, I would ask Michael

603
00:37:41,556 --> 00:37:46,916
Speaker 1: to speak for me, and Michael secretly imagined that I

604
00:37:47,036 --> 00:37:50,156
Speaker 1: might speak for them. But we neither one of us

605
00:37:50,196 --> 00:37:53,676
Speaker 1: could speak for each other because we both we made

606
00:37:53,716 --> 00:37:57,436
Speaker 1: it at the same time. Did you play together that evening?

607
00:37:58,036 --> 00:38:00,596
Speaker 1: I'm sure we did. It's like such a blur. I mean,

608
00:38:00,636 --> 00:38:04,556
Speaker 1: everybody sort of played together, but I don't remember, truthfully.

609
00:38:04,756 --> 00:38:08,756
Speaker 1: What I do remember was sitting in Michael's sweet He

610
00:38:08,836 --> 00:38:11,436
Speaker 1: had a beautiful suite in the hotel I think it

611
00:38:11,516 --> 00:38:15,596
Speaker 1: was the Waldorf Astoria where they used to have the ceremony,

612
00:38:15,796 --> 00:38:18,476
Speaker 1: and he had a beautiful white suit on and I

613
00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:21,996
Speaker 1: was all in black, and we went to the elevator

614
00:38:22,036 --> 00:38:26,756
Speaker 1: hand in hand together, and that picture of him all

615
00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,236
Speaker 1: in white and me all in black heading to our

616
00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:33,076
Speaker 1: ceremony is still in my head. We'll be right back

617
00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:39,996
Speaker 1: with more from Patti Smith after this break. Here's the

618
00:38:40,036 --> 00:38:44,396
Speaker 1: rest of Malcolm Gladwell's conversation with Patti Smith. Let's talk

619
00:38:44,436 --> 00:38:49,356
Speaker 1: about your next life Detroit in marriage and it seems

620
00:38:49,676 --> 00:38:54,036
Speaker 1: to announced er like a very dramatic change in the

621
00:38:54,196 --> 00:38:56,516
Speaker 1: kind of life you are living. Well. I mean it

622
00:38:56,756 --> 00:39:00,476
Speaker 1: was in the fact that I went from playing for

623
00:39:00,556 --> 00:39:04,676
Speaker 1: eighty thousand people in a stadium in Florence, which was

624
00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:08,036
Speaker 1: my last job. It was just our job. We had

625
00:39:08,036 --> 00:39:11,076
Speaker 1: no opening act and that was my last job, to

626
00:39:12,076 --> 00:39:16,956
Speaker 1: living a quiet life in Detroit. But what I've always

627
00:39:16,996 --> 00:39:22,156
Speaker 1: wanted more than anything else was simply to do good work,

628
00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:27,716
Speaker 1: work of quality. And I could see my future. I

629
00:39:27,796 --> 00:39:30,236
Speaker 1: was in Europe. I was getting quite big. I know

630
00:39:30,356 --> 00:39:34,516
Speaker 1: that sounds conceited, but it's the truth I was at

631
00:39:34,836 --> 00:39:36,956
Speaker 1: We were huge, and we were as big as the

632
00:39:37,036 --> 00:39:41,676
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones in Italy. Really, I mean in terms of performing,

633
00:39:41,756 --> 00:39:45,236
Speaker 1: not recording wise. But where was that all going for me?

634
00:39:45,276 --> 00:39:48,756
Speaker 1: As an artist? I wasn't growing, you know, I wasn't

635
00:39:48,796 --> 00:39:52,636
Speaker 1: evolving as a human being or as an artist. You know,

636
00:39:52,716 --> 00:39:57,476
Speaker 1: I didn't really have fame and fortune goals. Ever, I

637
00:39:57,716 --> 00:40:00,396
Speaker 1: always had a goal to do something great, which is

638
00:40:00,436 --> 00:40:04,076
Speaker 1: actually takes his a little more conceited than thinking I

639
00:40:04,116 --> 00:40:06,916
Speaker 1: want to be rich and famous. I just wanted to

640
00:40:06,956 --> 00:40:11,316
Speaker 1: be great, to do something great, to do something you know, worthy,

641
00:40:11,436 --> 00:40:15,116
Speaker 1: to do something that will endure, to do something to

642
00:40:15,196 --> 00:40:17,916
Speaker 1: add to the pantheon of all the great work that's

643
00:40:17,916 --> 00:40:21,316
Speaker 1: been done. So it gave me an opportunity to really

644
00:40:21,356 --> 00:40:25,236
Speaker 1: think about, you know, for sixteen years, what direction do

645
00:40:25,316 --> 00:40:28,756
Speaker 1: I want to go to to develop a writer discipline,

646
00:40:29,036 --> 00:40:33,596
Speaker 1: which I did, and to reacquaint myself with being a

647
00:40:33,596 --> 00:40:36,996
Speaker 1: citizen and being you know, a human being, you know

648
00:40:37,156 --> 00:40:41,396
Speaker 1: who doesn't place themselves in the center. How old are

649
00:40:41,396 --> 00:40:45,036
Speaker 1: you when you get married? I was thirty three. And

650
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:47,716
Speaker 1: where did you meet Fred? I met him in Detroit

651
00:40:48,116 --> 00:40:50,876
Speaker 1: at a job. You know, we played the Ford Theater

652
00:40:51,156 --> 00:40:55,116
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six. But really, you know, I'm not

653
00:40:55,196 --> 00:40:58,276
Speaker 1: comfortable with talking a lot about that period of my life.

654
00:40:58,276 --> 00:41:04,476
Speaker 1: It's really private. But the thing is, I love my

655
00:41:04,636 --> 00:41:07,876
Speaker 1: I love my kids. I loved Fred. It was and

656
00:41:07,996 --> 00:41:11,036
Speaker 1: we didn't have the perfect It wasn't like always a paradise.

657
00:41:11,636 --> 00:41:14,476
Speaker 1: We had our problems. I don't mean just with each other.

658
00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:18,036
Speaker 1: I mean we had, you know, things our own, you know,

659
00:41:18,076 --> 00:41:21,036
Speaker 1: all the things that people go through. You know. Sometimes

660
00:41:21,036 --> 00:41:23,756
Speaker 1: it was hard. Sometimes it was financially hard because we

661
00:41:23,876 --> 00:41:28,756
Speaker 1: really left everything, all of our options. We were sort

662
00:41:28,756 --> 00:41:32,756
Speaker 1: of cut off. But I have to say they're probably

663
00:41:32,796 --> 00:41:37,316
Speaker 1: the most precious years of my life. I loved Fred.

664
00:41:37,476 --> 00:41:41,196
Speaker 1: I've never met anyone else like him. I love my kids.

665
00:41:41,236 --> 00:41:43,636
Speaker 1: He gave me these, you know, a son and a

666
00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:51,556
Speaker 1: daughter that you know, magnify my life and for myself personally,

667
00:41:51,756 --> 00:41:54,876
Speaker 1: I think I evolved quite a bit in that time period,

668
00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:59,036
Speaker 1: and I became a writer, not just writing poetry late

669
00:41:59,076 --> 00:42:01,996
Speaker 1: at nights, stoned on pot or something. I mean a writer.

670
00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:05,476
Speaker 1: I wrote every day. I developed, you know, a really

671
00:42:05,516 --> 00:42:08,956
Speaker 1: strong work work ethic, which I still have today. And

672
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:11,516
Speaker 1: because of those years, I was able to write just

673
00:42:11,796 --> 00:42:15,156
Speaker 1: kids that just kids didn't come out of anywhere. It

674
00:42:15,196 --> 00:42:19,476
Speaker 1: came out of all those years of writing and rewriting

675
00:42:19,516 --> 00:42:24,116
Speaker 1: and learning about writing. What's fascinating is you go from

676
00:42:24,156 --> 00:42:29,516
Speaker 1: being part of this alive, diverse, creative community in New

677
00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:33,036
Speaker 1: York to Chelsea Hotel, all those names, and then in Detroit,

678
00:42:33,356 --> 00:42:36,236
Speaker 1: is there a community in Detroit like now there isn't.

679
00:42:36,556 --> 00:42:39,316
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't experience it. But Fred was like

680
00:42:39,356 --> 00:42:42,676
Speaker 1: a one man community. I mean, he had, first of all,

681
00:42:42,996 --> 00:42:47,916
Speaker 1: such a history. He was intelligent, and beautiful, and athletic

682
00:42:48,036 --> 00:42:53,116
Speaker 1: and interested in so many things political, such a good father.

683
00:42:53,276 --> 00:42:57,236
Speaker 1: But he was, you know, a very private man. You know,

684
00:42:57,276 --> 00:43:02,276
Speaker 1: I've all always been in my life, in my young life,

685
00:43:02,516 --> 00:43:07,756
Speaker 1: I always had some person in my life that was

686
00:43:07,836 --> 00:43:12,836
Speaker 1: meaningful and that I had a meaningful and fruitful relationship with.

687
00:43:13,156 --> 00:43:16,596
Speaker 1: You know, it was Robert and then Sam Shephard. You know,

688
00:43:16,636 --> 00:43:20,196
Speaker 1: I had other relationships that were important, but you know,

689
00:43:20,316 --> 00:43:24,156
Speaker 1: it was important for me something I always wanted as well,

690
00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:27,956
Speaker 1: not just to be an artist, but to have a

691
00:43:27,996 --> 00:43:32,276
Speaker 1: person in my life. And he was the person. So

692
00:43:32,956 --> 00:43:36,596
Speaker 1: and as I said before, I have a loner aspect.

693
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:40,396
Speaker 1: I missed, if I missed anything, from the two things

694
00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:43,276
Speaker 1: I missed the most, I missed the camaraderie of my

695
00:43:43,316 --> 00:43:46,116
Speaker 1: band and my brother was the head of our crew,

696
00:43:46,156 --> 00:43:49,996
Speaker 1: and I missed that lively relationship we had. You know,

697
00:43:50,036 --> 00:43:52,636
Speaker 1: I missed, you know, seeing him on the side of

698
00:43:52,636 --> 00:43:56,156
Speaker 1: the stage, watching every move. You know, I missed him

699
00:43:56,156 --> 00:44:00,156
Speaker 1: handing me my guitar. I missed the camaraderie. And I

700
00:44:00,196 --> 00:44:05,156
Speaker 1: also missed having a cafe on every street. I missed

701
00:44:05,196 --> 00:44:07,996
Speaker 1: New York in that way. I missed, you know. But

702
00:44:08,516 --> 00:44:12,156
Speaker 1: I came from rural South Jersey. I was the oldest

703
00:44:12,156 --> 00:44:16,116
Speaker 1: of four children. Came from a very lively, chaotic household.

704
00:44:16,956 --> 00:44:21,436
Speaker 1: So this was not an unfamiliar life, No, I mean

705
00:44:21,476 --> 00:44:25,316
Speaker 1: it was. It was a life that I could adapt to. Also,

706
00:44:25,396 --> 00:44:28,316
Speaker 1: I was with a fellow artist and a fella thinker.

707
00:44:28,596 --> 00:44:31,276
Speaker 1: Who would you say you learned how to write in

708
00:44:31,316 --> 00:44:34,236
Speaker 1: those years? They turned you into a writer? Can you

709
00:44:34,276 --> 00:44:36,676
Speaker 1: talk about what that? I mean, were you you were

710
00:44:36,676 --> 00:44:39,756
Speaker 1: writing every It's just like anything else, you know, there's

711
00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:42,556
Speaker 1: that I don't know if it's a joke or like

712
00:44:42,596 --> 00:44:46,316
Speaker 1: a cliche where it says writing is one percent inspiration

713
00:44:46,516 --> 00:44:50,716
Speaker 1: in ninety percent or whatever. Perspiration. Well, I learned about

714
00:44:50,756 --> 00:44:55,436
Speaker 1: that ninety percent. I learned about the manual labor of writing,

715
00:44:56,036 --> 00:44:59,796
Speaker 1: and I learned, well, it's just it became my discipline.

716
00:45:00,236 --> 00:45:02,996
Speaker 1: I got up early in the morning when everyone was sleeping.

717
00:45:03,036 --> 00:45:05,236
Speaker 1: When I had the kids, they'd be sleeping. I'd get

718
00:45:05,316 --> 00:45:07,236
Speaker 1: up at five in the morning and write from five

719
00:45:07,316 --> 00:45:10,996
Speaker 1: to eight every morning, and then they get up as

720
00:45:11,036 --> 00:45:14,076
Speaker 1: they got older, get them ready for school, and do

721
00:45:14,156 --> 00:45:17,596
Speaker 1: whatever tasks I had to do. But I always took

722
00:45:17,876 --> 00:45:22,596
Speaker 1: at least three hours whenever it was to just concentrate,

723
00:45:22,996 --> 00:45:28,956
Speaker 1: and I didn't have the prolific skills you know of

724
00:45:29,196 --> 00:45:32,836
Speaker 1: other writers. I don't how explain it. It's just like

725
00:45:32,876 --> 00:45:35,476
Speaker 1: anything else. It's a discipline. It's like if you start

726
00:45:35,516 --> 00:45:38,916
Speaker 1: out with your muscles weak, and then you start exercising

727
00:45:39,036 --> 00:45:42,556
Speaker 1: or doing certain things, and by you know, after several months,

728
00:45:42,596 --> 00:45:46,236
Speaker 1: you crave exercise, you know, and then it becomes not

729
00:45:46,356 --> 00:45:50,116
Speaker 1: so painful. It's it's it's just part of your regiment.

730
00:45:50,356 --> 00:45:52,596
Speaker 1: It's just part of the work that I do. I

731
00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:56,076
Speaker 1: can't really break it down. I'm just simply saying by

732
00:45:56,116 --> 00:45:57,876
Speaker 1: the fact that I did it every day. And if

733
00:45:57,876 --> 00:46:00,036
Speaker 1: you want to learn to play the oboe and you're

734
00:46:00,076 --> 00:46:05,036
Speaker 1: not a prodigy, you might have to work harder, practicing

735
00:46:05,156 --> 00:46:07,556
Speaker 1: several hours a day till you get just the hang

736
00:46:07,596 --> 00:46:10,196
Speaker 1: of them out of the read Would you share that

737
00:46:10,236 --> 00:46:13,356
Speaker 1: writing with people? What were you doing with it? I

738
00:46:13,476 --> 00:46:17,036
Speaker 1: just did it and moved on. I mean, I really

739
00:46:17,076 --> 00:46:20,516
Speaker 1: it's still I have notebooks full of stuff, but it's

740
00:46:20,556 --> 00:46:25,716
Speaker 1: like I just keep going, so, you know, I imagine

741
00:46:25,756 --> 00:46:28,356
Speaker 1: that one day i'd look back, or I'd sit and

742
00:46:28,796 --> 00:46:32,596
Speaker 1: work on it and maybe publish it. But what really

743
00:46:32,676 --> 00:46:36,596
Speaker 1: happens is we really write in a certain way. It's

744
00:46:36,636 --> 00:46:41,916
Speaker 1: almost organic. We write the same thing over and over

745
00:46:41,996 --> 00:46:46,276
Speaker 1: in a different way. I'm also so immersed with the

746
00:46:46,316 --> 00:46:51,556
Speaker 1: present and also being at my age, I finally grasped

747
00:46:52,956 --> 00:46:57,796
Speaker 1: being happy with present tense, that I'm more immersed in

748
00:46:57,836 --> 00:47:00,316
Speaker 1: the writing that I'm doing now. I look at all

749
00:47:00,316 --> 00:47:03,796
Speaker 1: these notebooks and I know that in there there's probably

750
00:47:03,956 --> 00:47:07,156
Speaker 1: some jewels, but there's probably a lot of stuff that's

751
00:47:07,236 --> 00:47:11,196
Speaker 1: just really the genesis of what I'm writing. Now, when

752
00:47:11,236 --> 00:47:14,756
Speaker 1: do you start working on just kids? Well, Robert asked

753
00:47:14,756 --> 00:47:17,916
Speaker 1: me to write it the day, well, only hours before

754
00:47:17,916 --> 00:47:22,756
Speaker 1: he died, which I never expected. And that was in

755
00:47:22,916 --> 00:47:26,236
Speaker 1: eighty nine. You never expected him to ask you to write, now,

756
00:47:26,796 --> 00:47:29,596
Speaker 1: why didn't you expect? Well, I don't write. I mean,

757
00:47:29,636 --> 00:47:34,956
Speaker 1: I wrote poetry and fairy tales and little story I mean,

758
00:47:34,996 --> 00:47:38,356
Speaker 1: I never I'm not a non fiction writer. I wrote

759
00:47:38,356 --> 00:47:41,676
Speaker 1: a lot of pieces about Robert, about Robert's work, for

760
00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:44,876
Speaker 1: his catalogs and things. But what he asked me to

761
00:47:44,916 --> 00:47:50,156
Speaker 1: write was our story. And our story was very specific

762
00:47:50,836 --> 00:47:53,596
Speaker 1: because he used to have me tell it to him.

763
00:47:53,636 --> 00:47:56,836
Speaker 1: Just some nights. He'd say, tell me our story. And

764
00:47:56,916 --> 00:47:58,836
Speaker 1: we'd be at the Chelsea and maybe we wouldn't have

765
00:47:58,956 --> 00:48:01,476
Speaker 1: enough to eat and couldn't sleep, and he'd say, tell

766
00:48:01,516 --> 00:48:04,276
Speaker 1: me our story. And so I would start, well, there

767
00:48:04,356 --> 00:48:06,516
Speaker 1: was a girl she wanted to be an artist, and

768
00:48:06,596 --> 00:48:09,556
Speaker 1: she came to New York City she was, And then

769
00:48:09,596 --> 00:48:12,756
Speaker 1: I tell how we met and keep updating it. So

770
00:48:12,796 --> 00:48:14,676
Speaker 1: I knew what he meant by our story. It was

771
00:48:14,716 --> 00:48:17,796
Speaker 1: sort of a game that we played. So yeah, he said,

772
00:48:17,796 --> 00:48:20,476
Speaker 1: will you write our story? And I said do you

773
00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:22,956
Speaker 1: want me to? And he said, you have to, no

774
00:48:23,036 --> 00:48:25,836
Speaker 1: one else can write it. And I perceived what he

775
00:48:25,916 --> 00:48:30,036
Speaker 1: wanted wasn't just for him, you know, there our story

776
00:48:30,196 --> 00:48:33,956
Speaker 1: or the romance of our friendship, but also the genesis

777
00:48:33,956 --> 00:48:37,836
Speaker 1: of Robert as an artist, because I knew more than anybody.

778
00:48:37,876 --> 00:48:40,636
Speaker 1: I lived with them, I know, watched him work for

779
00:48:40,756 --> 00:48:44,596
Speaker 1: twelve thirteen hours sometimes on one drawling. I you know,

780
00:48:44,676 --> 00:48:47,596
Speaker 1: we went through so many different shed so many skins

781
00:48:47,676 --> 00:48:51,556
Speaker 1: together that I knew that I could, that I had

782
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,756
Speaker 1: the information. I knew that I had lived it. We

783
00:48:54,796 --> 00:48:58,396
Speaker 1: had lived it. So I promised him I do it

784
00:48:58,596 --> 00:49:01,876
Speaker 1: not really not knowing how I'd do it. I didn't

785
00:49:01,876 --> 00:49:06,796
Speaker 1: have a book contract, I didn't have any connection with

786
00:49:07,596 --> 00:49:11,476
Speaker 1: you know, writing a non fiction book. But then a

787
00:49:11,516 --> 00:49:15,476
Speaker 1: series of things happened. My pianist, who I really loved,

788
00:49:15,756 --> 00:49:20,836
Speaker 1: who was only thirty seven, died suddenly of a pulmonary defect,

789
00:49:21,636 --> 00:49:25,236
Speaker 1: which was terrible. When Robert died, I had just had

790
00:49:25,716 --> 00:49:29,396
Speaker 1: my second child, and then my husband started being ill,

791
00:49:29,476 --> 00:49:32,676
Speaker 1: and you know, by the end of ninety four, my

792
00:49:32,756 --> 00:49:37,116
Speaker 1: husband died. My brother died also of the same pulmonary

793
00:49:37,196 --> 00:49:42,676
Speaker 1: defect as just by chance of Richard's soul. For the

794
00:49:42,756 --> 00:49:47,596
Speaker 1: next years, my preoccupation was how to take care of

795
00:49:47,636 --> 00:49:50,716
Speaker 1: my children. You know, I couldn't live the same way

796
00:49:50,716 --> 00:49:53,636
Speaker 1: that Fred and I had lived because I don't drive.

797
00:49:54,116 --> 00:49:57,356
Speaker 1: I didn't have a support system, a big support system

798
00:49:57,516 --> 00:50:01,516
Speaker 1: in Michigan. So I decided to take our children back

799
00:50:01,516 --> 00:50:06,036
Speaker 1: to New York and find work. So the book was

800
00:50:06,076 --> 00:50:10,636
Speaker 1: set aside. And then finally I I met an editor,

801
00:50:11,196 --> 00:50:16,636
Speaker 1: Betsy Lerner, who became not only my best friend but

802
00:50:16,716 --> 00:50:19,636
Speaker 1: my savior at the time, because she got me a

803
00:50:20,556 --> 00:50:25,916
Speaker 1: really really great contract to write the Robert book, which

804
00:50:26,156 --> 00:50:30,116
Speaker 1: gave me some income. But I had so much trouble

805
00:50:30,236 --> 00:50:34,956
Speaker 1: writing it. I was still processing all the loss around me.

806
00:50:35,596 --> 00:50:38,796
Speaker 1: My life had changed again. I was now performing again,

807
00:50:39,556 --> 00:50:45,156
Speaker 1: but without my brother, without my pianist, and having two kids.

808
00:50:45,236 --> 00:50:50,476
Speaker 1: So I was negotiating a very hard see. But eventually

809
00:50:50,516 --> 00:50:54,516
Speaker 1: Betsy helped. She was my editor through that process, and

810
00:50:54,596 --> 00:50:57,756
Speaker 1: it took a while. So he asked me to write

811
00:50:57,756 --> 00:51:01,156
Speaker 1: it in eighty nine and it came out twenty ten,

812
00:51:01,916 --> 00:51:05,196
Speaker 1: which can give you some idea of what a struggle

813
00:51:05,196 --> 00:51:07,636
Speaker 1: it was to write it. Also, I wanted it to

814
00:51:07,676 --> 00:51:10,996
Speaker 1: be I wanted him to be something he would have

815
00:51:11,036 --> 00:51:15,596
Speaker 1: been proud of. I wanted it to be as accurate

816
00:51:15,796 --> 00:51:20,476
Speaker 1: as possible, and to give people a sense not just

817
00:51:20,596 --> 00:51:24,796
Speaker 1: of Robert and I Robert's work, but the atmosphere of

818
00:51:24,836 --> 00:51:28,596
Speaker 1: our time. So there were a lot of challenges and

819
00:51:28,676 --> 00:51:32,276
Speaker 1: emotionally difficult. It was emotionally difficult because it's sort of

820
00:51:32,316 --> 00:51:37,236
Speaker 1: like bringing Robert to life for the people. Was also sad.

821
00:51:37,276 --> 00:51:41,356
Speaker 1: It was painful, you know, and also reverberated other losses.

822
00:51:42,076 --> 00:51:44,796
Speaker 1: But I was so happy. I can't tell you how

823
00:51:44,836 --> 00:51:47,316
Speaker 1: happy I was. Because I vowed to him I would

824
00:51:47,396 --> 00:51:51,356
Speaker 1: do it. So I completed my vow. I did as

825
00:51:51,436 --> 00:51:55,596
Speaker 1: I promised, and once again. It's just you know, when

826
00:51:55,596 --> 00:51:57,836
Speaker 1: we did Horses, I just thought, well, we'll do a

827
00:51:57,876 --> 00:52:00,636
Speaker 1: record and some I was hoping, like, you know, a

828
00:52:00,716 --> 00:52:04,396
Speaker 1: small disenfranchised group of people would like it, you know,

829
00:52:04,396 --> 00:52:06,196
Speaker 1: would dig it, you know, and that would be it.

830
00:52:06,796 --> 00:52:09,596
Speaker 1: And with this book also, I thought, well, a certain

831
00:52:09,676 --> 00:52:12,916
Speaker 1: group of people will like it. But that's okay. I've

832
00:52:12,956 --> 00:52:16,116
Speaker 1: done it. I've done my best. But somehow I don't

833
00:52:16,276 --> 00:52:19,356
Speaker 1: really to this day understand. But I mean, one a

834
00:52:19,436 --> 00:52:23,676
Speaker 1: National Book Award and it's sold over well over a

835
00:52:23,676 --> 00:52:28,196
Speaker 1: million copies globally, It's in forty three languages, and to

836
00:52:28,316 --> 00:52:32,476
Speaker 1: this state the most successful thing I ever did. I mean,

837
00:52:32,516 --> 00:52:35,356
Speaker 1: I've never even had a gold record. Even Horses didn't

838
00:52:35,396 --> 00:52:38,836
Speaker 1: go gold. I don't have one gold record, and I'm

839
00:52:38,836 --> 00:52:43,276
Speaker 1: not complaining about that. I'm just simply in comparison, just

840
00:52:43,396 --> 00:52:47,676
Speaker 1: kids eclipsed in terms of I don't know how other

841
00:52:47,756 --> 00:52:50,636
Speaker 1: way to say it, but success, in that kind of success,

842
00:52:51,356 --> 00:52:56,556
Speaker 1: it eclipsed everything else I did. It's a masterpiece. Oh thanks,

843
00:52:58,236 --> 00:53:02,316
Speaker 1: you know what. Johnny Depp was my first reader, and

844
00:53:02,676 --> 00:53:06,916
Speaker 1: I actually was staying. I was struggling with the end

845
00:53:06,956 --> 00:53:09,916
Speaker 1: of it so much, and I just needed to get

846
00:53:09,956 --> 00:53:12,676
Speaker 1: away and he has a compound in the south of France.

847
00:53:13,676 --> 00:53:16,876
Speaker 1: So he let me come to the compound and they

848
00:53:16,956 --> 00:53:22,036
Speaker 1: have he and Vanessa had renovated a little chapel into

849
00:53:22,076 --> 00:53:26,036
Speaker 1: a guesthouse and he, you know, I stayed there until

850
00:53:26,076 --> 00:53:29,476
Speaker 1: I finished it. And every day he would just even

851
00:53:29,676 --> 00:53:32,836
Speaker 1: he'd bring me, like, because they had a cook there,

852
00:53:33,116 --> 00:53:35,516
Speaker 1: bring me a little tray of food and leave it outside.

853
00:53:36,356 --> 00:53:40,236
Speaker 1: And finally I finished it and I came out, are

854
00:53:40,236 --> 00:53:42,876
Speaker 1: you there. I don't know. A month, I don't know.

855
00:53:43,396 --> 00:53:48,036
Speaker 1: I actually I don't remember. Yeah, But when I finished it,

856
00:53:48,636 --> 00:53:52,516
Speaker 1: and then I called in all of my changes or

857
00:53:52,516 --> 00:53:55,396
Speaker 1: any you know, I went through the whole thing. It

858
00:53:55,476 --> 00:53:58,956
Speaker 1: was done. It was it was absolutely done. And I

859
00:53:59,036 --> 00:54:03,076
Speaker 1: had my manuscript, you know, with all these all the

860
00:54:03,116 --> 00:54:06,916
Speaker 1: little changes and stuff. And he came to the door

861
00:54:06,956 --> 00:54:09,596
Speaker 1: and I gave it to him and I said it's done.

862
00:54:09,796 --> 00:54:12,916
Speaker 1: And he was the first, other than Betsy or the publisher,

863
00:54:13,236 --> 00:54:17,276
Speaker 1: the first person to read it. And then he disappeared

864
00:54:17,516 --> 00:54:21,596
Speaker 1: for like thirty hours or something, and then he came back.

865
00:54:21,636 --> 00:54:23,796
Speaker 1: He knocked on the door and I opened it and

866
00:54:23,836 --> 00:54:27,796
Speaker 1: he said it's a fucking masterpiece. And I was like,

867
00:54:28,116 --> 00:54:31,076
Speaker 1: oh my god. And I only mentioned that because you

868
00:54:31,196 --> 00:54:34,236
Speaker 1: said that. You know, I'm not bragging or anything, but yeah,

869
00:54:34,236 --> 00:54:36,876
Speaker 1: he said that, and he liked meant it with all

870
00:54:36,956 --> 00:54:40,036
Speaker 1: his heart. And I thought, well, I don't know who's

871
00:54:40,076 --> 00:54:42,636
Speaker 1: going to like this book, but Johnny likes it and

872
00:54:42,716 --> 00:54:45,756
Speaker 1: he's well read, you know. So you know, it's funny

873
00:54:45,796 --> 00:54:50,836
Speaker 1: because that book, like yourself, has many different lives. You know,

874
00:54:50,876 --> 00:54:55,476
Speaker 1: it's simultaneously a love story, but it's also this picture

875
00:54:55,516 --> 00:54:58,556
Speaker 1: of New York. It's the best picture of seventies New

876
00:54:58,636 --> 00:55:01,116
Speaker 1: York that I thank you ever read. If you had

877
00:55:01,156 --> 00:55:05,156
Speaker 1: no interest in the love story part, or no interest

878
00:55:05,196 --> 00:55:08,836
Speaker 1: in you or Robert Mapplethorpe, you could still read it.

879
00:55:09,116 --> 00:55:12,476
Speaker 1: I think it's a masterpiece. Oh that's so nice. It

880
00:55:12,516 --> 00:55:14,436
Speaker 1: goes back to a question I asked the very beginning,

881
00:55:14,516 --> 00:55:17,316
Speaker 1: is that always in New York. The weird thing about

882
00:55:17,356 --> 00:55:19,236
Speaker 1: New York is the people who see it most clearly

883
00:55:19,956 --> 00:55:24,396
Speaker 1: and beautifully and live it most are the outsiders, the

884
00:55:24,436 --> 00:55:26,956
Speaker 1: ones who didn't, Well, you come to New York. That's

885
00:55:26,996 --> 00:55:29,836
Speaker 1: interesting that you should say that, And I think perhaps

886
00:55:29,996 --> 00:55:34,356
Speaker 1: it's because for myself, but I think I could see that,

887
00:55:34,516 --> 00:55:38,116
Speaker 1: like even in the people that really struggled back then,

888
00:55:38,796 --> 00:55:41,396
Speaker 1: you know, I would see like Candy Darling and Jackie

889
00:55:41,396 --> 00:55:44,596
Speaker 1: Curtis and all these different artists that came from all

890
00:55:44,636 --> 00:55:49,876
Speaker 1: different places. For myself, it was gratitude because I was

891
00:55:50,036 --> 00:55:52,676
Speaker 1: you know, where I came from in South Jersey, there

892
00:55:52,756 --> 00:55:55,716
Speaker 1: was no real culture there, not even a good library,

893
00:55:56,316 --> 00:56:00,396
Speaker 1: no cafe, no bookstore. There was you know, you went

894
00:56:00,436 --> 00:56:02,516
Speaker 1: to Philadelphia. You could get on a bus and go

895
00:56:02,556 --> 00:56:07,396
Speaker 1: to Philadelphia for culture, but day to day. And also

896
00:56:08,276 --> 00:56:10,756
Speaker 1: because I was a different kind of I was sort

897
00:56:10,796 --> 00:56:15,036
Speaker 1: of a bohemian kid, and you know, I was looked different.

898
00:56:15,116 --> 00:56:17,356
Speaker 1: You know, I grew up when you know people tease

899
00:56:17,476 --> 00:56:20,356
Speaker 1: their hair and to beehives, and you know, wore a

900
00:56:20,396 --> 00:56:22,636
Speaker 1: lot of makeup, and there was a certain look to

901
00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:28,476
Speaker 1: the late fifties, early sixties, mid sixties. But I was mentally,

902
00:56:28,836 --> 00:56:32,316
Speaker 1: I was not from my own culture. I loved the

903
00:56:32,356 --> 00:56:36,476
Speaker 1: people that I grew up with. They were awesome and

904
00:56:36,516 --> 00:56:39,676
Speaker 1: there were great things about where I came from, and

905
00:56:39,756 --> 00:56:44,636
Speaker 1: I think about it very nostalgically, but culturally there was nothing,

906
00:56:45,116 --> 00:56:48,476
Speaker 1: and there was no work and no real culture and

907
00:56:49,276 --> 00:56:52,316
Speaker 1: not a lot of people of a like mind, no

908
00:56:52,396 --> 00:56:56,716
Speaker 1: real community and going to New York and sitting in

909
00:56:56,756 --> 00:56:58,916
Speaker 1: the East village for a couple of nights, would know where,

910
00:56:59,036 --> 00:57:03,756
Speaker 1: just literally roaming around looking for work, falling asleep on stoops,

911
00:57:04,116 --> 00:57:07,756
Speaker 1: waking up watching all these people, all these people that

912
00:57:07,796 --> 00:57:09,676
Speaker 1: were so you know, they all look like they were

913
00:57:10,276 --> 00:57:13,556
Speaker 1: they could have been in h Sergeant Pepper on the cover,

914
00:57:13,676 --> 00:57:16,876
Speaker 1: Sergeant Pepper, you know, wearing tyed eye or bill bottoms.

915
00:57:16,916 --> 00:57:20,316
Speaker 1: And people were smoking pot and books everywhere and reading

916
00:57:20,396 --> 00:57:23,916
Speaker 1: Ellen Gensburg and playing Ornick Coleman. You know, it's just

917
00:57:24,676 --> 00:57:28,116
Speaker 1: you know, in here, in like Jefferson airplane, like in

918
00:57:28,196 --> 00:57:32,316
Speaker 1: boom boxes or it was just it was such a

919
00:57:32,396 --> 00:57:36,836
Speaker 1: squirrel for a person like me to enter. And so

920
00:57:36,876 --> 00:57:40,796
Speaker 1: many great things happened to me in New York. You know,

921
00:57:41,036 --> 00:57:43,996
Speaker 1: nothing really bad happened to me in New York. Bad

922
00:57:44,036 --> 00:57:47,356
Speaker 1: things happened to people I knew, But for me, it

923
00:57:47,476 --> 00:57:50,356
Speaker 1: was just I met so many great people. I met

924
00:57:50,476 --> 00:57:55,676
Speaker 1: great teachers, great artists and poets. I mean not that

925
00:57:55,756 --> 00:57:58,116
Speaker 1: I got friends with them, but I mean I got

926
00:57:58,156 --> 00:58:01,196
Speaker 1: to shake hands with Auden. You know, he's just like

927
00:58:01,236 --> 00:58:03,996
Speaker 1: you never knew New York City. All these people were

928
00:58:04,036 --> 00:58:07,796
Speaker 1: just there. There wasn't people paparazzis and people asking for

929
00:58:08,116 --> 00:58:11,476
Speaker 1: cell phone picture I remember one day I went to

930
00:58:11,516 --> 00:58:15,796
Speaker 1: the I was giving out flyers or something on the

931
00:58:15,836 --> 00:58:18,836
Speaker 1: steps of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and then I

932
00:58:18,916 --> 00:58:22,116
Speaker 1: was walking down Fifth Avenue. Coming up this way was

933
00:58:22,556 --> 00:58:30,556
Speaker 1: Lee Raswell, Jacqueline Onassis, and Noriev walking together, just talking

934
00:58:31,156 --> 00:58:33,556
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god. And you just

935
00:58:33,596 --> 00:58:36,596
Speaker 1: pass them by and think, wow, that was cool. You know.

936
00:58:37,316 --> 00:58:39,356
Speaker 1: When I worked at Scribbners, I used to wait on

937
00:58:39,436 --> 00:58:43,876
Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn, I waited on Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.

938
00:58:44,436 --> 00:58:47,236
Speaker 1: You know, it's just these saw these people, and it

939
00:58:47,356 --> 00:58:50,596
Speaker 1: was but there was nobody running around and grabbing at

940
00:58:50,596 --> 00:58:53,396
Speaker 1: them and taking their picture. It was just the New

941
00:58:53,476 --> 00:58:57,556
Speaker 1: York was a pretty cool place, you know, and nobody

942
00:58:57,596 --> 00:59:02,076
Speaker 1: asked for it was just considered uncool, just considered uncool.

943
00:59:02,316 --> 00:59:05,236
Speaker 1: You just didn't do that. You see Paul McCartney sitting

944
00:59:05,676 --> 00:59:08,556
Speaker 1: in a bar stool, You just didn't bug them. You

945
00:59:08,636 --> 00:59:11,236
Speaker 1: just didn't do that. You know. It's a whole different

946
00:59:11,276 --> 00:59:14,556
Speaker 1: world now. But the fact that you know, you could

947
00:59:14,556 --> 00:59:18,636
Speaker 1: get apartments so cheap, you could get a job, you

948
00:59:18,636 --> 00:59:22,076
Speaker 1: could meet like minded people. I have a lot of

949
00:59:22,116 --> 00:59:25,436
Speaker 1: gratitude for that period. I have a lot of gratitude

950
00:59:26,036 --> 00:59:29,036
Speaker 1: for the city in general, for the climate in general,

951
00:59:29,116 --> 00:59:33,316
Speaker 1: for the community in general. There was a lot of

952
00:59:33,676 --> 00:59:39,156
Speaker 1: rough spots, believe me, but the overall opportunity, I'm very

953
00:59:39,196 --> 00:59:41,636
Speaker 1: grateful for it, and I think when you have gratitude,

954
00:59:42,516 --> 00:59:46,276
Speaker 1: you're going to look at things different. We have a

955
00:59:46,276 --> 00:59:48,876
Speaker 1: little town left. Talk a little bit about what you're

956
00:59:48,956 --> 00:59:52,676
Speaker 1: up to. Now. There's like, there's Patti Smith's in my inbox.

957
00:59:54,116 --> 00:59:56,356
Speaker 1: You're in my life. Now, tell me a little about

958
00:59:56,396 --> 01:00:02,596
Speaker 1: this is very exciting. Well, I during the pandemic March ninth,

959
01:00:02,636 --> 01:00:05,756
Speaker 1: we played the Filmore West. We did two nice at

960
01:00:05,756 --> 01:00:09,516
Speaker 1: the Filmore. Then we headed to Seattle to do another show,

961
01:00:09,556 --> 01:00:12,076
Speaker 1: and then we were about to embark on a world tour.

962
01:00:12,516 --> 01:00:14,836
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a world tour because at that

963
01:00:14,916 --> 01:00:18,396
Speaker 1: point I was like seventy two or whatever three and

964
01:00:18,516 --> 01:00:22,716
Speaker 1: I felt it was important to while I still had

965
01:00:23,436 --> 01:00:26,596
Speaker 1: good voice and a lot of energy, to do at

966
01:00:26,636 --> 01:00:30,116
Speaker 1: least one more fairly big tour. And it was really

967
01:00:30,156 --> 01:00:33,316
Speaker 1: a world tour. Well, we flew to Seattle and then

968
01:00:33,356 --> 01:00:36,676
Speaker 1: I woke up in the morning and I put on

969
01:00:36,716 --> 01:00:40,396
Speaker 1: the news and it was the mayor of Seattle or

970
01:00:40,436 --> 01:00:44,356
Speaker 1: the governor, and he was telling how they were going

971
01:00:44,396 --> 01:00:47,076
Speaker 1: to go into lockdown. He said, the sold out show

972
01:00:47,556 --> 01:00:51,116
Speaker 1: at State Theater Patti Smith and her Band is canceled.

973
01:00:51,156 --> 01:00:54,116
Speaker 1: And I was like, what I mean, I didn't know

974
01:00:54,196 --> 01:00:57,036
Speaker 1: what was really going on. I knew something, I knew

975
01:00:57,276 --> 01:01:00,916
Speaker 1: the aura of things, but and that's how I found out.

976
01:01:00,956 --> 01:01:04,396
Speaker 1: And so then we left and we went home, and

977
01:01:04,436 --> 01:01:06,316
Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, we have to be in quarantine for

978
01:01:06,396 --> 01:01:09,796
Speaker 1: fourteen days. We have jobs coming up at the end

979
01:01:09,796 --> 01:01:12,116
Speaker 1: of March, and then we were going to Australia. But

980
01:01:12,196 --> 01:01:15,556
Speaker 1: I thought it would be okay, never dreaming that I

981
01:01:15,596 --> 01:01:19,636
Speaker 1: wouldn't be leaving my house for almost two years, hardly,

982
01:01:20,156 --> 01:01:24,676
Speaker 1: and that's what happened. So because I was I was

983
01:01:24,716 --> 01:01:27,836
Speaker 1: seventy three, and I have a broncular condition, I was

984
01:01:27,956 --> 01:01:32,556
Speaker 1: deemed a high risk, so I'd obviously be really careful

985
01:01:32,756 --> 01:01:37,356
Speaker 1: New York City. Really, I mean, the amount of illness

986
01:01:37,396 --> 01:01:40,236
Speaker 1: and death was like a real thing. And of course

987
01:01:40,276 --> 01:01:43,996
Speaker 1: I understand the nature of pandemics. I had studied the

988
01:01:44,996 --> 01:01:49,356
Speaker 1: Spanish flu epidemic. I was quarantined as a child with

989
01:01:49,396 --> 01:01:54,036
Speaker 1: a bird flu and tuberculosis, and so I knew a

990
01:01:54,076 --> 01:01:58,436
Speaker 1: lot about quarantines what it all meant. But I still

991
01:01:58,516 --> 01:02:01,236
Speaker 1: never imagined it was going to go on for so long,

992
01:02:02,116 --> 01:02:06,556
Speaker 1: and I'm a restless person. I like movement. I had

993
01:02:06,596 --> 01:02:09,476
Speaker 1: my little suitcase pack to go away for a yeartically,

994
01:02:10,116 --> 01:02:14,756
Speaker 1: and it was a little hard for me to settle down.

995
01:02:15,996 --> 01:02:19,556
Speaker 1: So I just started writing as usual. I just wrote

996
01:02:19,596 --> 01:02:25,156
Speaker 1: every day, and I was approached by someone through Betsy

997
01:02:26,116 --> 01:02:31,596
Speaker 1: from sub Stack, which is it's a subscription based service.

998
01:02:32,396 --> 01:02:35,876
Speaker 1: And I thought this was interesting because I had been

999
01:02:35,916 --> 01:02:40,236
Speaker 1: writing this diary, sort of a pandemic diary, but I

1000
01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:44,756
Speaker 1: envisioned it to go to some other places, to move

1001
01:02:44,836 --> 01:02:48,916
Speaker 1: into some parallel worlds, and I was interested to see

1002
01:02:48,916 --> 01:02:52,756
Speaker 1: where it would go. And the idea of doing something episodic,

1003
01:02:52,916 --> 01:02:55,716
Speaker 1: I thought it was really cool, you know because like

1004
01:02:56,236 --> 01:03:00,956
Speaker 1: Arthur Conan Doyle and of course Dickens, and then Louisa

1005
01:03:00,996 --> 01:03:05,596
Speaker 1: may Alcott, even Joe March her character, they did things

1006
01:03:05,676 --> 01:03:09,036
Speaker 1: episodically and that's how they were paid by the word

1007
01:03:09,236 --> 01:03:12,596
Speaker 1: back then. And I thought it would be real interesting,

1008
01:03:12,636 --> 01:03:15,996
Speaker 1: and well, it would be a challenge to be able

1009
01:03:15,996 --> 01:03:20,396
Speaker 1: to deliver things weekly because I'm I had been used

1010
01:03:20,436 --> 01:03:23,356
Speaker 1: to being on the road and getting more sporadic as

1011
01:03:23,396 --> 01:03:28,916
Speaker 1: a writer. So I accepted that challenge and I found

1012
01:03:28,956 --> 01:03:31,756
Speaker 1: it took me a little while to figure out how

1013
01:03:31,836 --> 01:03:34,636
Speaker 1: to what to give the people and what they liked.

1014
01:03:35,236 --> 01:03:37,756
Speaker 1: But I've been there almost a year and I actually

1015
01:03:37,796 --> 01:03:41,876
Speaker 1: love it, and it is growing in terms of what

1016
01:03:41,996 --> 01:03:44,836
Speaker 1: I can offer the people because I can do little

1017
01:03:44,956 --> 01:03:49,436
Speaker 1: videos live in time, just talk to the people or

1018
01:03:49,636 --> 01:03:52,716
Speaker 1: read them a poem. I can do any kind of

1019
01:03:52,756 --> 01:03:57,076
Speaker 1: audio I want, send them stories, send them pictures, read

1020
01:03:57,116 --> 01:04:00,076
Speaker 1: their comments. And that's what I do. I mean, I'm

1021
01:04:01,076 --> 01:04:04,076
Speaker 1: I'm developing it as we go along, and I'm letting

1022
01:04:04,076 --> 01:04:07,876
Speaker 1: the people at this point help me sort of guide

1023
01:04:07,876 --> 01:04:11,756
Speaker 1: me as to where I should go. So the melting

1024
01:04:12,116 --> 01:04:16,356
Speaker 1: is my favorite part, although it's not necessarily the most

1025
01:04:16,396 --> 01:04:19,796
Speaker 1: popular part, but it's my favorite because it's such an

1026
01:04:19,836 --> 01:04:24,116
Speaker 1: interesting challenge. And I love to read the people's comments.

1027
01:04:24,836 --> 01:04:27,916
Speaker 1: Because even if you have only fifty comments or maybe

1028
01:04:27,996 --> 01:04:32,076
Speaker 1: ninety or maybe thirty, when you write a book, or

1029
01:04:32,116 --> 01:04:34,756
Speaker 1: you write you put out a book, you might get

1030
01:04:34,796 --> 01:04:37,276
Speaker 1: reviewed a couple of times, or maybe somebody on the

1031
01:04:37,316 --> 01:04:40,116
Speaker 1: street tells you they like it, or you can look

1032
01:04:40,156 --> 01:04:44,156
Speaker 1: at the sales, but you're not really hearing any kind

1033
01:04:44,196 --> 01:04:49,396
Speaker 1: of real intellectual feedback. And I love that. I love

1034
01:04:49,436 --> 01:04:52,436
Speaker 1: the comments that people write sometimes the comments are more

1035
01:04:52,476 --> 01:04:56,676
Speaker 1: poetic than the posts I've done, and sometimes they're really

1036
01:04:56,756 --> 01:05:02,076
Speaker 1: interesting or they really display a real understanding of what

1037
01:05:02,116 --> 01:05:06,236
Speaker 1: I'm doing, because sometimes I'm attempting something a bit abstract,

1038
01:05:06,636 --> 01:05:09,716
Speaker 1: and they're very accepting because it's really like at this

1039
01:05:09,836 --> 01:05:14,356
Speaker 1: point of my melting, it's regressional right now, and I'm

1040
01:05:14,356 --> 01:05:16,476
Speaker 1: writing it in time, and I don't really know what

1041
01:05:16,596 --> 01:05:19,796
Speaker 1: I'm going to write each week, and so it's sort

1042
01:05:19,796 --> 01:05:23,716
Speaker 1: of like not like a drug, but it's it can

1043
01:05:23,876 --> 01:05:28,596
Speaker 1: move into hallucinary places, and the people there, even if

1044
01:05:28,636 --> 01:05:33,196
Speaker 1: it's a small amount, they're into it, and that's really inspiring,

1045
01:05:33,796 --> 01:05:36,796
Speaker 1: you know. And it just like yesterday, I was supposed

1046
01:05:36,796 --> 01:05:40,076
Speaker 1: to do the melting, but it was my wedding anniversary. Truthfully,

1047
01:05:40,116 --> 01:05:42,796
Speaker 1: I was sometimes I get a little sad. I really

1048
01:05:42,836 --> 01:05:45,596
Speaker 1: miss Fred, so I did a little post for Fred

1049
01:05:46,076 --> 01:05:51,116
Speaker 1: yesterday and so the Melton's a day late. But it

1050
01:05:51,196 --> 01:05:54,596
Speaker 1: was really a life saver for me. I mean, it

1051
01:05:54,716 --> 01:05:57,436
Speaker 1: was a nice thing to make to have a job,

1052
01:05:57,636 --> 01:06:00,876
Speaker 1: you know, because I lost all of our work, which

1053
01:06:01,236 --> 01:06:04,596
Speaker 1: having a job helps me help others. But it wasn't

1054
01:06:04,636 --> 01:06:10,156
Speaker 1: just that, like to have any financial reward. It being

1055
01:06:10,196 --> 01:06:14,396
Speaker 1: in a lockdown not seeing anybody, not going anywhere, and

1056
01:06:14,516 --> 01:06:19,036
Speaker 1: having some kind of feedback creating for people and hearing

1057
01:06:19,116 --> 01:06:22,516
Speaker 1: from them. That was really good. I love my substack.

1058
01:06:22,676 --> 01:06:27,116
Speaker 1: I'm still developing it, and I think that I've gleaned

1059
01:06:27,116 --> 01:06:30,436
Speaker 1: that people really like knowing about music. So when the

1060
01:06:30,516 --> 01:06:34,396
Speaker 1: melting's over, what would I do? Maybe take song after song,

1061
01:06:34,476 --> 01:06:37,276
Speaker 1: you know, post a song, sing it to the people,

1062
01:06:37,956 --> 01:06:40,236
Speaker 1: tell them the story of how the song was written.

1063
01:06:40,836 --> 01:06:43,796
Speaker 1: There's so many different things that I can do if

1064
01:06:43,836 --> 01:06:47,596
Speaker 1: that's what the people like. And I also have my Instagram,

1065
01:06:47,836 --> 01:06:53,156
Speaker 1: which I also like, and they're my two social things.

1066
01:06:53,196 --> 01:06:57,156
Speaker 1: The latest iteration in the many lives of yeah, well,

1067
01:06:57,196 --> 01:06:59,876
Speaker 1: you know, I never you know, I don't really. It

1068
01:06:59,956 --> 01:07:02,116
Speaker 1: took me long enough just to get a cell phone

1069
01:07:02,156 --> 01:07:05,796
Speaker 1: and then I wasn't engaging in any social media. But

1070
01:07:05,916 --> 01:07:10,036
Speaker 1: my daughter really suggested that I should have Instagram and

1071
01:07:10,156 --> 01:07:12,436
Speaker 1: set it up for me. And it's so easy to do,

1072
01:07:12,916 --> 01:07:16,476
Speaker 1: and I really like it because I can suggest books

1073
01:07:16,756 --> 01:07:19,036
Speaker 1: or there's a lot of different things I can do

1074
01:07:19,236 --> 01:07:22,036
Speaker 1: in that small you know, it's just this little thing,

1075
01:07:22,156 --> 01:07:24,836
Speaker 1: you know, you put a picture and say a few words,

1076
01:07:24,876 --> 01:07:28,436
Speaker 1: but you can bring people a movie they never saw

1077
01:07:28,756 --> 01:07:33,116
Speaker 1: or remembering a certain person on their birthday, and I

1078
01:07:33,196 --> 01:07:37,116
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, Patty, I think I've occupied you for

1079
01:07:37,356 --> 01:07:39,796
Speaker 1: long enough. Thank you. I haven't done a whole lot

1080
01:07:39,836 --> 01:07:43,036
Speaker 1: of interviews in the past couple of years, and then

1081
01:07:43,076 --> 01:07:45,916
Speaker 1: I found the few that I've done. I tend to

1082
01:07:46,116 --> 01:07:49,196
Speaker 1: like I'm just talking away. No, this is fantastic. It was,

1083
01:07:49,476 --> 01:07:51,796
Speaker 1: and such an honor. By the way. Oh, since I'm

1084
01:07:51,796 --> 01:07:54,756
Speaker 1: such a fan of yours, that was so nice what

1085
01:07:54,836 --> 01:07:57,436
Speaker 1: you said about the book. I was the equivalent when

1086
01:07:57,476 --> 01:08:00,476
Speaker 1: I read that book of the guys falling from the ceiling. Oh,

1087
01:08:00,476 --> 01:08:07,116
Speaker 1: thank you, Patty. This has been great good Thanks the

1088
01:08:07,116 --> 01:08:11,076
Speaker 1: Patti Smith for sharing her inspiration story with Malcolm. You

1089
01:08:11,076 --> 01:08:13,036
Speaker 1: can hear a new album and all of our favorite

1090
01:08:13,076 --> 01:08:16,356
Speaker 1: Patti Smith songs on a playlist at Broken Record podcast

1091
01:08:16,396 --> 01:08:19,116
Speaker 1: dot com, and be sure to check out her substack

1092
01:08:19,196 --> 01:08:23,116
Speaker 1: at Patti Smith dot substack dot com. Be sure to

1093
01:08:23,156 --> 01:08:26,116
Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash

1094
01:08:26,196 --> 01:08:28,996
Speaker 1: Broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our

1095
01:08:29,036 --> 01:08:32,956
Speaker 1: new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

1096
01:08:33,356 --> 01:08:37,236
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced at help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ventaladay,

1097
01:08:37,476 --> 01:08:41,116
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez with engineering help from Nick Chafe.

1098
01:08:41,796 --> 01:08:45,636
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mio Lobell. Broken Record is a

1099
01:08:45,636 --> 01:08:48,556
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and

1100
01:08:48,636 --> 01:08:52,796
Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus

1101
01:08:52,876 --> 01:08:56,516
Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted

1102
01:08:56,556 --> 01:08:59,796
Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look

1103
01:08:59,796 --> 01:09:03,356
Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you

1104
01:09:03,436 --> 01:09:05,916
Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review

1105
01:09:05,996 --> 01:09:08,916
Speaker 1: us on your podcast app or theme musics by Kenny Beats,

1106
01:09:09,236 --> 01:09:10,116
Speaker 1: I'm just Enrichment