WEBVTT - How Juries Work 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:09.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.640 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.439 Chuck and Jerry's hanging out too, if she exists, and 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:19.759 this is stuff you should know. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:25.040 That's right, And as he briefly saw, I'm in my 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:30.120 new studio. Fun episode number one after all these years, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:30.920 a fresh start. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.040 That's very nice. So let's mark this occasion jury Jury's 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.640 is the first episode in your new studio. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.320 That's right, and it's funny. My chair, I ordered a 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:48.400 special little like chair for my new studio that matched 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:49.320 the rest of it. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.400 Then it's red velvet like the rest of your study. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:58.200 It's close and it it arrived fifteen minutes ago. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:00.920 Oh yeah, Like is it all in one piece? Are 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:01.560 you sitting in it? 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.840 Or yeah? It was all in one piece, thankfully. And 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:05.480 the guy dropped it on the porch and I was like, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:07.520 you're just in time, and he went for what I 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.920 was like, never mind, and I took it downstairs and 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.320 like like I haven't even farted in it yet. 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.120 Oh boy, well make sure you do during this first episode. 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:17.360 It's fresh as a daisy. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.360 Let everybody know when you do, too, Okay, I will 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.880 all right, Chuck, have you ever been on a jury? No. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:27.360 I think we've talked about this at some point. But 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.920 I was called once only believe it or not, at 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.760 my advanced age, and that was only a couple of 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.560 years ago. And that thing where you know you can 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.320 call in and they can say don't come. I called 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.640 in and they said you gotta come, right, So I 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:45.880 got to that next step where I go down there 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.640 and in person, and then I actually got brought into 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.160 a courtroom and it was a last second, like we settled, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.040 you can go home. Oh really, I was really close. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:57.720 I was like, all right, this is finally gonna happen. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.280 So is that something you want to do? And let 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.400 me ask you this, would your answer now be different 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.320 than it was before you research this? 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.880 Maybe because I used to definitely not want to, and 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.280 now I totally would want to, as long as it 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.320 didn't screw up our work and our recording stuff, because 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:18.359 that would really be awful. 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.880 Yeah, we could make it work, though, I mean, I 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.120 don't know what if you get on one of those 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.120 where you're like sequestered for a month, I don't know, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.239 We'll have to bring in told And I guess is 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:35.200 the temporary sit in. No, I've been called once and 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.280 I had just moved to a different county, Okay, and 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.080 called and told them that, and they were like, go 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.560 to hell, really, And I took that to mean I 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:44.399 shouldn't come in. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.919 Oh oh, I thought you meant go to hell, like nice, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.320 try buddy, get in here anyway. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.480 No, it meant the opposite of that. And I was 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.880 surprised that a government official, even at county level, would 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.520 say something like that, right, But that's that's what happened. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.280 This is a banger of an article by Livia Though. 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:08.080 Yes, it's about juris everything you ever want to know 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.480 about juris, And there's actually a lot to know about jurys. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.880 It's not just like the process of juries. It's actually 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:18.560 kind of pretty light as far as like understanding goes. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.960 But there's a lot about juris culturally, and if you 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.839 step back and really think about what juries do. Our 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.680 entire legal system, or the basis of our legal system, 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:36.520 is largely predicated on twelve random people who have no expertise, 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:42.040 typically in law or law enforcement or anything like that, 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.520 are asked to sit down and hear the facts of 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.880 a case that can be highly technical sometimes and then 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.600 decide a person's guilt or innocence, sometimes to the degree 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.240 that they will spend the rest of their life in 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.840 jail or be put to death. Well again, zero training, 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.480 zero experience. On one hand, it seems like total madness 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.880 that we would do this, but if you really look 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:09.880 at the reasoning behind it, it's saying like, we couldn't. 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.680 This is so important, We wouldn't entrust it to a bureaucracy. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.320 We have to entrust it to your peers, to other 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.039 people who could be in the same exact position that you, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.280 the defendant, are in someday, and we just need them 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.040 to take things a little more seriously than usual and 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:26.040 render a verdict. 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.839 Yeah, I mean it is a little scary when you 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:31.960 think about it, but it also, as Livia points out 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.360 kind of right away, it's really heartening that on the whole, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.800 like most people want to do a good job, and 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.120 then they go in there and try to do a 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.320 good job. I mean, you hear random news stories occasionally 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.720 about these people that get on there that do something 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.280 really stupid, either in the press or just period, and 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.640 those are fewer and further between. I think when most 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.800 people get on there, they're like, all right, this is 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.440 like kind of a solemn duty almost that mayan country 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:04.920 min my country entrusted me, and why I should try 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.360 and do a good job as a citizen. Most people 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:08.320 behave that way. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.120 Yeah, and I get the impression that people don't go 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.839 into it necessarily thinking like that. But once you're in 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.279 there and it's real and you're sitting in a courtroom. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.640 Like, I can't be the screw up right exactly exactly. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.000 You want to just kind of blend in, and to 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.039 blend in you have to act real legal legal. 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:25.599 I would have a hard time just with you know, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.760 I was a real class clown and you've seen me, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.640 and like when we used to have the big roundtable meetings, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.560 I just have a really hard time not cracking jokes, right, 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.159 So that would the whole thing would be tough for me. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.279 Yeah. I could see a witness kind of like half 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.800 tripping on the way to the witness box and you'd 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.560 be like, boy, you're going. Then it's just dead silence 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:49.880 in the courtroom after that. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:53.000 Yeah, that's me. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.680 So to kind of go back to the beginning, jurys 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.720 are actually fairly old and they find their roots as 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.920 at least as far as the United States legal system 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.680 back in England, because the United States was birthed through 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.200 the birth canal of the Atlantic Ocean out of the 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:12.680 womb of England. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.159 That's right. And in twelve fifteen, the old Magna Carta 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:21.080 said that you know what a free man. Of course 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:22.919 those were the words I use back then, but a 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.520 free person could not be imprisoned except by a judgment 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:30.680 of his peers. And as far as modern sort of 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.599 trials by jury that we could think of today, that 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.760 basically started around the fifteenth century with the common law system, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.680 and before that it was just a bit of a hodgepodge. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:46.520 Yeah, so that's where twelve people who are called to 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.400 hear the facts of the case, like we think of 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.040 jury's today, like you said, but there were something similar 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.640 for the few hundred years before that. I think in 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.880 our Judicial Decisions episode we talked about King Henry the Second, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.440 who basically came to powers like Okay, this is kind 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.720 of crazy, We're going to come up with one legal 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.479 system for the whole country. Something that came out of 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:10.640 that was the process of finding people who maybe like 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.720 knew about a crime, who were witnesses to it, and 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.560 it usually assembled up to about twelve honest people giving 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.200 their kind of deposition and or rendering a judgment on it, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.560 and then all they could find maybe, I guess so 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:28.880 out of like all those people that are only twelve 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.840 honest with me, right well, they didn't say sober, they 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.920 just said honest. Good point so, and from the very 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.080 outset in the United States, even prior to it being 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.760 the United States been in the colonies. We did another 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:46.280 episode on America's first murderer, IRA back in the day, 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.840 we actually meant United States first murderer. 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.320 It was John Billington, right yeah, And this was you know, 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.680 the Pilgrims at Plymouth basically said right away that we're 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.560 going to do this new jury thing and it didn't 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.840 take long. Sixteen thirty the first due that we know 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.120 of at least killed somebody and was tried by jury 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.240 for willful murder. I'm sorry to say, yeah, it is 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.280 by plain and notorious evidence. And then there's a few 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:18.000 amendments in the Constitution that grant trial by jury as 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.520 a right. One is the sixth for criminal cases, the 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:27.720 seventh for most civil cases, federal civil cases, that is. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.440 And even then it's not you know, we'll get into 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.439 all this. It gets a little different with civil cases. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.280 And then the old grand jury, which we're also going 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.560 to talk about, is for capital crimes or maybe an 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.080 infamous crime, and that is covered by the fifth right. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.400 So you typically are considered to have a right to 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.160 a jury, but not in every single case, like if 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:54.320 it's not particularly I guess egregious case or a case 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.360 where you could be convicted of anything less than six months, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:58.600 you can misdemeanor. 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.880 Yeah, great way to put but not all misdemeanors even. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:03.800 No, no, because you can get more than six months 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:10.600 for some misdemeanors, trust me, but they but they typically are. 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.400 They don't give you necessarily a jury for that. Also, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.680 if there's certain courts like drug courts, mental health courts, 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.520 they're not meant to be adversarial. They're meant to be like, 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.640 let's come together and figure out the best way to 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.679 support this person to get them back on the straight 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.559 and narrow, or to help them with their mental health, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.520 which apparently is not being addressed because they landed in 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.280 this court. Those don't necessarily have juries. They almost never do. 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:35.920 And the same with juvenile courts because they're not really 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.920 supposed to be adversarial either. Unless a child has really 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.800 screwed up and they're being tried as an adult, then 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.920 they do have a right to a jury probably every 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.040 single time, because if you're a juvenile being tried as 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.160 an adult, it's probably a pretty big offense that you're 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:53.000 being tried for. 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.600 Yeah, is that even considered juvenile courts like in that building. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.040 No, I know, it's just like a kid is now 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:02.920 in the adult system. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.360 That's right. You can also say, you know what, I 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.280 waved my right to a jury trial, don't want one. 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.520 I want to go with the bench trial, which means 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.880 you want your judge to basically kind of handle the 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.079 whole thing, like whether or not you're guilty or innocent, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.599 and we'll get up we'll get into the ins and 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.680 out to that a little bit later. But the judge 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.520 also is going to handle handle the sentencing. In the 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.319 case of almost everything, it's you know, the jury they're 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.080 going to say, like, you know, what should this person 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.319 serve because the jury probably be like, I don't know, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.240 you tell me. Except for and this is a really 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:47.000 thorny kind of place here, capital punishment cases, the jury 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.800 decides whether or not to impose the death sentence, which 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.520 is I mean, I knew that, but it's to read 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.560 it and to sort of really let that sink in 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:57.679 is a lot. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.280 Yeah, for sure, you said, we'll talk a little more 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.600 about why you would want a bench trial. But under 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.679 normal circumstances in a criminal case, there's two kinds of 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.120 juris right. They're called the petty jury p E T 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.160 I T like pettiphores, and then there's the grand jury. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.320 And it doesn't mean one's more important than the other. 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.960 It's literally a reference to the number of jurors involved. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:22.520 Petit. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.920 I heard a legal person say petty. A couple of 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.560 legal people say petty. Don't you say petty four? 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.600 Yeah, but you also say petit for small as in 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:33.480 that grand. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.240 Yes, but there's usually an E on the end. There's 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.600 no E on the end of this one, you know 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.000 what I'm saying. So with a petty jury, you usually 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.760 have twelve six for a civil case. A grand jury 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.840 can have up to like in the twenties of a lot. Yeah, yeah, 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:50.520 for sure. It's a lot of people you have to 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.720 go through and ask what their opinion is, you know, yeah, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:54.920 and pretend you care. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.240 And then you know it kind of varies between. You know, 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.120 you have to have at least six for the federal 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.760 civil juries, but that number can go up, and then 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.680 the grand jury, which is a different kind of jury, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.840 And maybe we should just do one in grand juries 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.960 by itself at some point, because I think it's pretty fascinating. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.840 But a grand jury isn't saying you're guilty or you're 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.280 innocent of a crime. A grand jury says, hey, prosecutor, 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.120 we think there is probable cause here, there's enough here, 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.760 somebody can you should go indict this person, and it's 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.080 still not illegal. It's just like a recommendation for indictment, right, Yeah. 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.400 And they may also say, hey, this is not this 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.920 is a pretty weak case. You should not indict this person, 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.000 or they might actually the prosecutor might not be able 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.160 to indict the person. I'm not one hundred percent sure 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.720 if the grand jury says no, but their their role 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:52.080 is and that's also a really ancient institution, the grand jury. Yeah, 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:56.320 but their role is to basically cover people who may 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.240 not have been even convicted of a crime, but the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.400 crime is serious that if they were publicly matched as 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.280 a possible suspect, their life could be ruined, their reputation 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.360 to be ruined. It affords that level of protection. It's 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.319 also I guess we didn't say grand jury proceedings are 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.120 totally secret. There's a prosecutor, the grand jurors, and a 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.320 court reporter who's sworn to secrecy, and everything that goes 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.360 on in there. Everybody who comes in or goes out, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.640 it's all very secret. And so one of the ways 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.760 that grand jury is often used is to protect timid 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.360 witnesses who might otherwise not give testimony. If you have 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.480 undercover cops who have to give testimony, that's a really 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.679 great place for them to do that. And then also 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.760 again to just basically hear whether the prosecutor is a 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.440 good enough case to indict the person or not. And then, 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.720 like you said, it may go on to an actual 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.800 jury trial, and those the jury trial is different in 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.680 that those people are there to hear the facts of 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.640 the case that is being tried against this person. They've 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.200 been indicted, they're now being tried for this offense. And 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.920 then the judge in that case. In a jury, they're 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.120 just the legal referee. They're just hey, they're just pointing 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:05.680 out like, okay, you're allowed to do this, you're not 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.920 allowed to do that. They don't have anything to do 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.200 with the facts of the case. They're just the ref 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.360 The jury is the one hearing the facts of the 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.560 case and rendering a verdict based on that right. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.680 So, oh man, that was good. You need to breeze 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.640 if you have been accused of a federal felony, because 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.400 you remember, there's state courts, there's federal courts, and the 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.720 rules are different for both, although you know a lot 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.040 of times they're also the same. But if you were 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.880 accused of a federal felony, then you definitely have the 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.920 right to the grand jury, but you can waive that. 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.040 And then state courts also have their state grand juries, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:47.280 except for Connecticut and Pennsylvania or the two states that 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.760 don't use grand juries for criminal indictments in their state. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.160 And then if you're on a jury, they used to 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.600 call it the foreman. Of course they're getting with the 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.840 times and now they call it a four person it's basically, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:06.480 uh kind of like the referee or manager of the jurors, 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.400 and they're the ones in the room that voted on, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.080 usually by the jury members. Sometimes they're chosen by the judge, 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.880 but more often than not seeing jury members, you know, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.480 voting very early on in the proceedings, after everyone learns 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:23.120 the various personalities, and this is the person that they're 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.400 kind of running the room when everyone's sitting around and talking. 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.120 If people are getting out of line, they're like, hey, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.000 you know, we need to calm down. Clap loudly, Yeah, 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.720 we need to figure this thing out. If they you 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.200 represent the voice of the jury. So you're the one 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.040 that's going to stand up and say guilty or not guilty. 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.240 You're going to be dealing with the judge. Although you 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.600 can request to individually see the judge. Any member of 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:48.200 the jury. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.480 Can do that, right like the procedures, you just go. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:58.200 Yeah, judge, judge, hey, you're holding you. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.040 There's another big difference with a grand jury and a 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.040 petty jury, and that is that a regular jury, I'm 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.680 gonna stop calling petty jury, but a jury, they they 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.720 sit through one trial and it can be anywhere from 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.320 a day to a few days to months. Very rarely, 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.520 I think I saw most trials last less than a week. 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.920 A grand jury, you are seated for sometimes up to months, 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.960 and you meet on a weekly basis to hear the 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:33.840 different prosecutors' cases. So you're hearing multiple cases throughout a meeting, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.640 and then you're meeting multiple times over the course of months. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.480 So it's a it's a really different animal for sure, and. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:41.800 Also sequestered for that. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.200 No, you're not. You're sworn to secrecy, but you're not 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.120 as far as I know, you're not. You're not sequestered. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:53.720 But because it's so involved and you're so it goes 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.240 on for so long, it's typically made up of people 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:00.920 who have a lot of like free time, like we're retired. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:05.560 People frequently make up like large proportions of grand juries 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.000 and things like that. Yeah, no shade or anything like that. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.680 I'm just saying, like, there's there's it's not necessarily a 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.720 perfect representation of the community like a jury's supposed to be. 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.359 But then again, I don't think any jury really is. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.560 Right, because you know, these are people that quote have 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.600 time on their hands end quote. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.240 Right, it's five or fifteen. What are we gonna order dinner? 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.840 All right, Uh, let's take a break. Ah, yes, yes, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.960 and we'll talk about to me, my most shocking stat 0:17:38.040 --> 0:18:00.359 in this episode. All right, we're back, and this shot me. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.760 I knew that trials happened less frequently than I probably thought, 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.280 but I figured it was like, I don't know, half 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.720 and half, maybe forty percent of the time you go 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.119 to trial, sixty percent you cop a plea. I was 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.600 newhere close, and we'll go by a couple of years here. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:27.520 Civil trials in nineteen sixty two in federal court, where 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.240 twelve percent went to jury trial. Today federal civil dispositions 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.360 are one percent. Yeah, and then criminal you think, well, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:38.879 criminal has got to be a lot more than that. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.800 In the early eighties, criminal court was about twenty percent, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:49.000 and now two percent of criminal cases go before a jury. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.040 And we're going to talk about all the reasons why, 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.560 but the biggest reason is ninety percent of the time 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.760 they take that plea deal. Eighty percent of the time 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.119 the case is dismissed, and so you're down to two two. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.320 Yeah. State courts is very similar, although it varies from 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.160 state to state, especially when it comes to civil lawsuits. 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:12.919 But with civil trials in particular, probably the biggest reason 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.879 why it's gone so far downhill as far as the 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.520 number of cases that make it to trial is because 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:24.680 there's the procedural rules of discovery have been established where 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.159 you have to basically each side shows their hand. Discovery 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.840 is so extensive and so sweeping that before you ever 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:34.960 get to trial, you know exactly how weak or how 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.800 strong your opponent's case is, so they don't actually even 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.959 bother to go to trial. Once discovery is over and 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.280 you see who's got the better case, then you move 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.760 on to a settlement phase. Typically, if the settlement doesn't 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.720 come to fruition, which it almost always does, they come 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.639 to a negotiation and an agreement and that person pays 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.000 that person. Again, this is a civil case. If it doesn't, 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.120 if they can't come to an agreement, then it goes 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.240 to trial. They almost always come to an agreement because 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.800 one side is clearly almost always better off than the 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.320 other side as far as legal standing goes. 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.560 Yeah, I mean it's funny. I never thought about it 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.520 until you said they have all their cards out. It'd 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.320 be like a game of poker played face up right, 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.439 You get dealt and they're like, why bother even playing 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.320 this hand? Yeah, we know what you have. But I imagine 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:26.280 sometimes even there are like you have poker players, there 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.720 would be prosecutors or defendants that say, I'm really good 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.280 at bluffing. I'd kind of like to go through with this. 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.159 Oh yeah, yeah, see see how I do. 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.560 Yeah, I'm sure all the Morgan and Morgan people love 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.880 to bluff, right, But it's kind of like, if you're 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.240 going to use a poker analogy, it's almost like you 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.120 would fax the other poker player that you just pull 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:50.000 the jack of clubs essentially, you know, just little by little. Yeah, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.560 lawyers loved to fact, they love to bluff, they love 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.000 to fax, and they love to drink until they get 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:56.800 ruinously drunk every day. 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.920 Yeah, in charge by the hour. The Supreme Court has 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.560 encouraged summary judgments, so that's also kind of you know, 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.159 sped things along. And then contracts. There's a lot of 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.800 civil cases that are based around disputes like contract disputes, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.800 and a lot of contracts these days. Contracts these days. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:19.880 Why does it sound so wrong? 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:21.119 It's so right though. 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.760 It is though, they have like direct language in there 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:30.080 that says hey, and especially when you're dealing with big corporations, 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.840 they're very fond of saying like, hey, if if anything 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.800 ever happens between us, you're signing something here that says 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.320 that we don't have to go to jury trial because 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.040 and we'll talk more about corporations, but Historically people aren't 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:45.280 shy about sticking it to a corporation. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.120 Right, Yeah, corporations do not like to go in front 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.920 of jury's But that contract thing, it's like you very 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.200 frequently agree to goes to go to arbitration or mediation. Right. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.399 So that's the civil side, right Chuck. Yeah, Okay, so 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.720 when it comes to the criminal side, it actually gets 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:07.200 a lot darker because the the reason why so many 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:09.960 people kap a plea ninety percent you said, kapp a 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:16.480 plea is twofold one is they issued sentencing guidelines in 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:21.720