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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's hanging out too, if she exists, and

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Speaker 2: this is stuff you should know.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And as he briefly saw, I'm in my

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Speaker 1: new studio. Fun episode number one after all these years,

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Speaker 1: a fresh start.

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Speaker 2: That's very nice. So let's mark this occasion jury Jury's

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Speaker 2: is the first episode in your new studio.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and it's funny. My chair, I ordered a

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Speaker 1: special little like chair for my new studio that matched

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Speaker 1: the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: Then it's red velvet like the rest of your study.

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Speaker 1: It's close and it it arrived fifteen minutes ago.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like is it all in one piece? Are

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Speaker 2: you sitting in it?

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Speaker 1: Or yeah? It was all in one piece, thankfully. And

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Speaker 1: the guy dropped it on the porch and I was like,

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Speaker 1: you're just in time, and he went for what I

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Speaker 1: was like, never mind, and I took it downstairs and

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Speaker 1: like like I haven't even farted in it yet.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, well make sure you do during this first episode.

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Speaker 1: It's fresh as a daisy.

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Speaker 2: Let everybody know when you do, too, Okay, I will

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Speaker 2: all right, Chuck, have you ever been on a jury? No.

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Speaker 1: I think we've talked about this at some point. But

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Speaker 1: I was called once only believe it or not, at

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Speaker 1: my advanced age, and that was only a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago. And that thing where you know you can

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Speaker 1: call in and they can say don't come. I called

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Speaker 1: in and they said you gotta come, right, So I

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Speaker 1: got to that next step where I go down there

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Speaker 1: and in person, and then I actually got brought into

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Speaker 1: a courtroom and it was a last second, like we settled,

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Speaker 1: you can go home. Oh really, I was really close.

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Speaker 1: I was like, all right, this is finally gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: So is that something you want to do? And let

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Speaker 2: me ask you this, would your answer now be different

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Speaker 2: than it was before you research this?

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Speaker 1: Maybe because I used to definitely not want to, and

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Speaker 1: now I totally would want to, as long as it

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Speaker 1: didn't screw up our work and our recording stuff, because

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Speaker 1: that would really be awful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we could make it work, though, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what if you get on one of those

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Speaker 2: where you're like sequestered for a month, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: We'll have to bring in told And I guess is

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Speaker 2: the temporary sit in. No, I've been called once and

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Speaker 2: I had just moved to a different county, Okay, and

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Speaker 2: called and told them that, and they were like, go

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Speaker 2: to hell, really, And I took that to mean I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't come in.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, I thought you meant go to hell, like nice,

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Speaker 1: try buddy, get in here anyway.

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Speaker 2: No, it meant the opposite of that. And I was

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Speaker 2: surprised that a government official, even at county level, would

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Speaker 2: say something like that, right, But that's that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: This is a banger of an article by Livia Though.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's about juris everything you ever want to know

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Speaker 2: about juris, And there's actually a lot to know about jurys.

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Speaker 2: It's not just like the process of juries. It's actually

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Speaker 2: kind of pretty light as far as like understanding goes.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot about juris culturally, and if you

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Speaker 2: step back and really think about what juries do. Our

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Speaker 2: entire legal system, or the basis of our legal system,

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Speaker 2: is largely predicated on twelve random people who have no expertise,

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Speaker 2: typically in law or law enforcement or anything like that,

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Speaker 2: are asked to sit down and hear the facts of

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Speaker 2: a case that can be highly technical sometimes and then

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Speaker 2: decide a person's guilt or innocence, sometimes to the degree

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Speaker 2: that they will spend the rest of their life in

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Speaker 2: jail or be put to death. Well again, zero training,

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Speaker 2: zero experience. On one hand, it seems like total madness

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Speaker 2: that we would do this, but if you really look

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Speaker 2: at the reasoning behind it, it's saying like, we couldn't.

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Speaker 2: This is so important, We wouldn't entrust it to a bureaucracy.

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Speaker 2: We have to entrust it to your peers, to other

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Speaker 2: people who could be in the same exact position that you,

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Speaker 2: the defendant, are in someday, and we just need them

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Speaker 2: to take things a little more seriously than usual and

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Speaker 2: render a verdict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is a little scary when you

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Speaker 1: think about it, but it also, as Livia points out

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Speaker 1: kind of right away, it's really heartening that on the whole,

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Speaker 1: like most people want to do a good job, and

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Speaker 1: then they go in there and try to do a

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Speaker 1: good job. I mean, you hear random news stories occasionally

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Speaker 1: about these people that get on there that do something

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Speaker 1: really stupid, either in the press or just period, and

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Speaker 1: those are fewer and further between. I think when most

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Speaker 1: people get on there, they're like, all right, this is

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Speaker 1: like kind of a solemn duty almost that mayan country

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Speaker 1: min my country entrusted me, and why I should try

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Speaker 1: and do a good job as a citizen. Most people

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Speaker 1: behave that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I get the impression that people don't go

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Speaker 2: into it necessarily thinking like that. But once you're in

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Speaker 2: there and it's real and you're sitting in a courtroom.

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Speaker 1: Like, I can't be the screw up right exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: You want to just kind of blend in, and to

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Speaker 2: blend in you have to act real legal legal.

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Speaker 1: I would have a hard time just with you know,

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Speaker 1: I was a real class clown and you've seen me,

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Speaker 1: and like when we used to have the big roundtable meetings,

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Speaker 1: I just have a really hard time not cracking jokes, right,

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Speaker 1: So that would the whole thing would be tough for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I could see a witness kind of like half

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Speaker 2: tripping on the way to the witness box and you'd

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Speaker 2: be like, boy, you're going. Then it's just dead silence

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom after that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's me.

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Speaker 2: So to kind of go back to the beginning, jurys

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Speaker 2: are actually fairly old and they find their roots as

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Speaker 2: at least as far as the United States legal system

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Speaker 2: back in England, because the United States was birthed through

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Speaker 2: the birth canal of the Atlantic Ocean out of the

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Speaker 2: womb of England.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And in twelve fifteen, the old Magna Carta

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Speaker 1: said that you know what a free man. Of course

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Speaker 1: those were the words I use back then, but a

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Speaker 1: free person could not be imprisoned except by a judgment

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Speaker 1: of his peers. And as far as modern sort of

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Speaker 1: trials by jury that we could think of today, that

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Speaker 1: basically started around the fifteenth century with the common law system,

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Speaker 1: and before that it was just a bit of a hodgepodge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's where twelve people who are called to

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Speaker 2: hear the facts of the case, like we think of

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Speaker 2: jury's today, like you said, but there were something similar

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Speaker 2: for the few hundred years before that. I think in

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Speaker 2: our Judicial Decisions episode we talked about King Henry the Second,

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Speaker 2: who basically came to powers like Okay, this is kind

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Speaker 2: of crazy, We're going to come up with one legal

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Speaker 2: system for the whole country. Something that came out of

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Speaker 2: that was the process of finding people who maybe like

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Speaker 2: knew about a crime, who were witnesses to it, and

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Speaker 2: it usually assembled up to about twelve honest people giving

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Speaker 2: their kind of deposition and or rendering a judgment on it,

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Speaker 2: and then all they could find maybe, I guess so

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Speaker 2: out of like all those people that are only twelve

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Speaker 2: honest with me, right well, they didn't say sober, they

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Speaker 2: just said honest. Good point so, and from the very

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Speaker 2: outset in the United States, even prior to it being

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Speaker 2: the United States been in the colonies. We did another

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Speaker 2: episode on America's first murderer, IRA back in the day,

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Speaker 2: we actually meant United States first murderer.

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Speaker 1: It was John Billington, right yeah, And this was you know,

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Speaker 1: the Pilgrims at Plymouth basically said right away that we're

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Speaker 1: going to do this new jury thing and it didn't

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Speaker 1: take long. Sixteen thirty the first due that we know

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Speaker 1: of at least killed somebody and was tried by jury

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Speaker 1: for willful murder. I'm sorry to say, yeah, it is

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Speaker 1: by plain and notorious evidence. And then there's a few

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Speaker 1: amendments in the Constitution that grant trial by jury as

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Speaker 1: a right. One is the sixth for criminal cases, the

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Speaker 1: seventh for most civil cases, federal civil cases, that is.

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Speaker 1: And even then it's not you know, we'll get into

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Speaker 1: all this. It gets a little different with civil cases.

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Speaker 1: And then the old grand jury, which we're also going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, is for capital crimes or maybe an

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Speaker 1: infamous crime, and that is covered by the fifth right.

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Speaker 2: So you typically are considered to have a right to

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Speaker 2: a jury, but not in every single case, like if

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Speaker 2: it's not particularly I guess egregious case or a case

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Speaker 2: where you could be convicted of anything less than six months,

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Speaker 2: you can misdemeanor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great way to put but not all misdemeanors even.

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Speaker 2: No, no, because you can get more than six months

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Speaker 2: for some misdemeanors, trust me, but they but they typically are.

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Speaker 2: They don't give you necessarily a jury for that. Also,

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Speaker 2: if there's certain courts like drug courts, mental health courts,

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Speaker 2: they're not meant to be adversarial. They're meant to be like,

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Speaker 2: let's come together and figure out the best way to

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Speaker 2: support this person to get them back on the straight

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Speaker 2: and narrow, or to help them with their mental health,

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Speaker 2: which apparently is not being addressed because they landed in

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Speaker 2: this court. Those don't necessarily have juries. They almost never do.

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Speaker 2: And the same with juvenile courts because they're not really

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Speaker 2: supposed to be adversarial either. Unless a child has really

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Speaker 2: screwed up and they're being tried as an adult, then

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Speaker 2: they do have a right to a jury probably every

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Speaker 2: single time, because if you're a juvenile being tried as

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Speaker 2: an adult, it's probably a pretty big offense that you're

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Speaker 2: being tried for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is that even considered juvenile courts like in that building.

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Speaker 2: No, I know, it's just like a kid is now

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Speaker 2: in the adult system.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You can also say, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: waved my right to a jury trial, don't want one.

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Speaker 1: I want to go with the bench trial, which means

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Speaker 1: you want your judge to basically kind of handle the

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Speaker 1: whole thing, like whether or not you're guilty or innocent,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get up we'll get into the ins and

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Speaker 1: out to that a little bit later. But the judge

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Speaker 1: also is going to handle handle the sentencing. In the

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Speaker 1: case of almost everything, it's you know, the jury they're

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Speaker 1: going to say, like, you know, what should this person

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Speaker 1: serve because the jury probably be like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you tell me. Except for and this is a really

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Speaker 1: thorny kind of place here, capital punishment cases, the jury

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Speaker 1: decides whether or not to impose the death sentence, which

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Speaker 1: is I mean, I knew that, but it's to read

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Speaker 1: it and to sort of really let that sink in

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Speaker 1: is a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you said, we'll talk a little more

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Speaker 2: about why you would want a bench trial. But under

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Speaker 2: normal circumstances in a criminal case, there's two kinds of

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Speaker 2: juris right. They're called the petty jury p E T

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Speaker 2: I T like pettiphores, and then there's the grand jury.

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean one's more important than the other.

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Speaker 2: It's literally a reference to the number of jurors involved.

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Speaker 1: Petit.

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Speaker 2: I heard a legal person say petty. A couple of

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Speaker 2: legal people say petty. Don't you say petty four?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you also say petit for small as in

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Speaker 1: that grand.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but there's usually an E on the end. There's

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Speaker 2: no E on the end of this one, you know

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. So with a petty jury, you usually

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Speaker 2: have twelve six for a civil case. A grand jury

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Speaker 2: can have up to like in the twenties of a lot. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: for sure. It's a lot of people you have to

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Speaker 2: go through and ask what their opinion is, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and pretend you care.

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Speaker 1: And then you know it kind of varies between. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have to have at least six for the federal

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Speaker 1: civil juries, but that number can go up, and then

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Speaker 1: the grand jury, which is a different kind of jury,

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Speaker 1: And maybe we should just do one in grand juries

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Speaker 1: by itself at some point, because I think it's pretty fascinating.

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Speaker 1: But a grand jury isn't saying you're guilty or you're

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Speaker 1: innocent of a crime. A grand jury says, hey, prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: we think there is probable cause here, there's enough here,

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Speaker 1: somebody can you should go indict this person, and it's

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Speaker 1: still not illegal. It's just like a recommendation for indictment, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they may also say, hey, this is not this

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Speaker 2: is a pretty weak case. You should not indict this person,

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Speaker 2: or they might actually the prosecutor might not be able

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Speaker 2: to indict the person. I'm not one hundred percent sure

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Speaker 2: if the grand jury says no, but their their role

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Speaker 2: is and that's also a really ancient institution, the grand jury. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but their role is to basically cover people who may

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Speaker 2: not have been even convicted of a crime, but the

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Speaker 2: crime is serious that if they were publicly matched as

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Speaker 2: a possible suspect, their life could be ruined, their reputation

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Speaker 2: to be ruined. It affords that level of protection. It's

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Speaker 2: also I guess we didn't say grand jury proceedings are

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Speaker 2: totally secret. There's a prosecutor, the grand jurors, and a

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Speaker 2: court reporter who's sworn to secrecy, and everything that goes

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Speaker 2: on in there. Everybody who comes in or goes out,

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Speaker 2: it's all very secret. And so one of the ways

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Speaker 2: that grand jury is often used is to protect timid

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Speaker 2: witnesses who might otherwise not give testimony. If you have

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Speaker 2: undercover cops who have to give testimony, that's a really

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Speaker 2: great place for them to do that. And then also

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Speaker 2: again to just basically hear whether the prosecutor is a

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Speaker 2: good enough case to indict the person or not. And then,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it may go on to an actual

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Speaker 2: jury trial, and those the jury trial is different in

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Speaker 2: that those people are there to hear the facts of

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Speaker 2: the case that is being tried against this person. They've

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Speaker 2: been indicted, they're now being tried for this offense. And

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Speaker 2: then the judge in that case. In a jury, they're

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Speaker 2: just the legal referee. They're just hey, they're just pointing

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Speaker 2: out like, okay, you're allowed to do this, you're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to do that. They don't have anything to do

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Speaker 2: with the facts of the case. They're just the ref

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Speaker 2: The jury is the one hearing the facts of the

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Speaker 2: case and rendering a verdict based on that right.

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Speaker 1: So, oh man, that was good. You need to breeze

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Speaker 1: if you have been accused of a federal felony, because

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Speaker 1: you remember, there's state courts, there's federal courts, and the

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Speaker 1: rules are different for both, although you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of times they're also the same. But if you were

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Speaker 1: accused of a federal felony, then you definitely have the

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Speaker 1: right to the grand jury, but you can waive that.

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Speaker 1: And then state courts also have their state grand juries,

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Speaker 1: except for Connecticut and Pennsylvania or the two states that

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Speaker 1: don't use grand juries for criminal indictments in their state.

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Speaker 1: And then if you're on a jury, they used to

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Speaker 1: call it the foreman. Of course they're getting with the

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Speaker 1: times and now they call it a four person it's basically,

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Speaker 1: uh kind of like the referee or manager of the jurors,

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Speaker 1: and they're the ones in the room that voted on,

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Speaker 1: usually by the jury members. Sometimes they're chosen by the judge,

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Speaker 1: but more often than not seeing jury members, you know,

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Speaker 1: voting very early on in the proceedings, after everyone learns

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Speaker 1: the various personalities, and this is the person that they're

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Speaker 1: kind of running the room when everyone's sitting around and talking.

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Speaker 1: If people are getting out of line, they're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to calm down. Clap loudly, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we need to figure this thing out. If they you

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Speaker 1: represent the voice of the jury. So you're the one

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Speaker 1: that's going to stand up and say guilty or not guilty.

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Speaker 1: You're going to be dealing with the judge. Although you

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Speaker 1: can request to individually see the judge. Any member of

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Speaker 1: the jury.

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Speaker 2: Can do that, right like the procedures, you just go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, judge, judge, hey, you're holding you.

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Speaker 2: There's another big difference with a grand jury and a

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Speaker 2: petty jury, and that is that a regular jury, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna stop calling petty jury, but a jury, they they

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Speaker 2: sit through one trial and it can be anywhere from

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Speaker 2: a day to a few days to months. Very rarely,

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Speaker 2: I think I saw most trials last less than a week.

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Speaker 2: A grand jury, you are seated for sometimes up to months,

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Speaker 2: and you meet on a weekly basis to hear the

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Speaker 2: different prosecutors' cases. So you're hearing multiple cases throughout a meeting,

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Speaker 2: and then you're meeting multiple times over the course of months.

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Speaker 2: So it's a it's a really different animal for sure, and.

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Speaker 1: Also sequestered for that.

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Speaker 2: No, you're not. You're sworn to secrecy, but you're not

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Speaker 2: as far as I know, you're not. You're not sequestered.

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Speaker 2: But because it's so involved and you're so it goes

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Speaker 2: on for so long, it's typically made up of people

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Speaker 2: who have a lot of like free time, like we're retired.

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Speaker 2: People frequently make up like large proportions of grand juries

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Speaker 2: and things like that. Yeah, no shade or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, there's there's it's not necessarily a

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Speaker 2: perfect representation of the community like a jury's supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: But then again, I don't think any jury really is.

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Speaker 1: Right, because you know, these are people that quote have

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Speaker 1: time on their hands end quote.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's five or fifteen. What are we gonna order dinner?

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Speaker 1: All right, Uh, let's take a break. Ah, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about to me, my most shocking stat

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Speaker 1: in this episode. All right, we're back, and this shot me.

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Speaker 1: I knew that trials happened less frequently than I probably thought,

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Speaker 1: but I figured it was like, I don't know, half

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Speaker 1: and half, maybe forty percent of the time you go

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Speaker 1: to trial, sixty percent you cop a plea. I was

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Speaker 1: newhere close, and we'll go by a couple of years here.

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Speaker 1: Civil trials in nineteen sixty two in federal court, where

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Speaker 1: twelve percent went to jury trial. Today federal civil dispositions

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Speaker 1: are one percent. Yeah, and then criminal you think, well,

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Speaker 1: criminal has got to be a lot more than that.

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Speaker 1: In the early eighties, criminal court was about twenty percent,

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Speaker 1: and now two percent of criminal cases go before a jury.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about all the reasons why,

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Speaker 1: but the biggest reason is ninety percent of the time

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Speaker 1: they take that plea deal. Eighty percent of the time

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Speaker 1: the case is dismissed, and so you're down to two two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. State courts is very similar, although it varies from

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Speaker 2: state to state, especially when it comes to civil lawsuits.

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Speaker 2: But with civil trials in particular, probably the biggest reason

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Speaker 2: why it's gone so far downhill as far as the

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Speaker 2: number of cases that make it to trial is because

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Speaker 2: there's the procedural rules of discovery have been established where

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Speaker 2: you have to basically each side shows their hand. Discovery

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Speaker 2: is so extensive and so sweeping that before you ever

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Speaker 2: get to trial, you know exactly how weak or how

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Speaker 2: strong your opponent's case is, so they don't actually even

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Speaker 2: bother to go to trial. Once discovery is over and

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Speaker 2: you see who's got the better case, then you move

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Speaker 2: on to a settlement phase. Typically, if the settlement doesn't

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Speaker 2: come to fruition, which it almost always does, they come

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Speaker 2: to a negotiation and an agreement and that person pays

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Speaker 2: that person. Again, this is a civil case. If it doesn't,

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Speaker 2: if they can't come to an agreement, then it goes

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Speaker 2: to trial. They almost always come to an agreement because

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Speaker 2: one side is clearly almost always better off than the

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Speaker 2: other side as far as legal standing goes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's funny. I never thought about it

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Speaker 1: until you said they have all their cards out. It'd

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Speaker 1: be like a game of poker played face up right,

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Speaker 1: You get dealt and they're like, why bother even playing

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Speaker 1: this hand? Yeah, we know what you have. But I imagine

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Speaker 1: sometimes even there are like you have poker players, there

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Speaker 1: would be prosecutors or defendants that say, I'm really good

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Speaker 1: at bluffing. I'd kind of like to go through with this.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, see see how I do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure all the Morgan and Morgan people love

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Speaker 2: to bluff, right, But it's kind of like, if you're

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Speaker 2: going to use a poker analogy, it's almost like you

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Speaker 2: would fax the other poker player that you just pull

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Speaker 2: the jack of clubs essentially, you know, just little by little. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: lawyers loved to fact, they love to bluff, they love

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Speaker 2: to fax, and they love to drink until they get

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Speaker 2: ruinously drunk every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in charge by the hour. The Supreme Court has

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Speaker 1: encouraged summary judgments, so that's also kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: sped things along. And then contracts. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: civil cases that are based around disputes like contract disputes,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of contracts these days. Contracts these days.

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Speaker 1: Why does it sound so wrong?

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Speaker 2: It's so right though.

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Speaker 1: It is though, they have like direct language in there

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Speaker 1: that says hey, and especially when you're dealing with big corporations,

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Speaker 1: they're very fond of saying like, hey, if if anything

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Speaker 1: ever happens between us, you're signing something here that says

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Speaker 1: that we don't have to go to jury trial because

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about corporations, but Historically people aren't

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Speaker 1: shy about sticking it to a corporation.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, corporations do not like to go in front

394
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Speaker 2: of jury's But that contract thing, it's like you very

395
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Speaker 2: frequently agree to goes to go to arbitration or mediation. Right.

396
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Speaker 2: So that's the civil side, right Chuck. Yeah, Okay, so

397
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Speaker 2: when it comes to the criminal side, it actually gets

398
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Speaker 2: a lot darker because the the reason why so many

399
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Speaker 2: people kap a plea ninety percent you said, kapp a

400
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Speaker 2: plea is twofold one is they issued sentencing guidelines in

401
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Speaker 2: the eighties that really like there's like you can really

402
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 2: go to jail for a really long time for a

403
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Speaker 2: variety of crimes. But they included a little plumb in

404
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,959
Speaker 2: there that said, if you quote accept responsibility for your

405
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Speaker 2: crime and plead guilty, you're going to get a much

406
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Speaker 2: lower sentence or lesser sentence. And here's what it is.

407
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Speaker 2: So there's like a menu that prosecutors. If you ever

408
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Speaker 2: watch Law and Order, they always do this, like every

409
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 2: episode they'll tell you like what you can get if

410
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 2: you go to trial, and then they'll tell you what

411
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Speaker 2: they'll give you if you kop a plea. There's actually

412
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Speaker 2: like guidelines that say that it's not necessarily like the

413
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Speaker 2: prosecutor of the DA who's saying like, I don't know,

414
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Speaker 2: let's say a month or something like that, there's guidelines

415
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Speaker 2: for that. And so most people are like, I'm not

416
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Speaker 2: gonna roll the dice here, because there is a study,

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Speaker 2: Chuck that found that convictions after being tried, if you

418
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Speaker 2: go to trial and you're convicted, you typically get five

419
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Speaker 2: times greater the sentence than you do if you cop

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Speaker 2: a plea deal. And believe me, the prosecutors are telling

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Speaker 2: people that every single time.

422
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Speaker 1: I have never seen Law and Order. What I bet you,

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Speaker 1: I bet you anything. This is how they say it.

424
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Speaker 1: If you plead, you'll get three to five maximum. But

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Speaker 1: if you don't, and they always say this, you're staring

426
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Speaker 1: at eight to ten. They always say you're staring.

427
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Speaker 2: At They don't actually on Law and Order, but I

428
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Speaker 2: could see where you were.

429
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Speaker 1: I thought you always stared at a big sentence. What

430
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Speaker 1: else are you gonna do?

431
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Speaker 2: They say, you're looking down the barrel at That's what

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Speaker 2: Law and Order is doing for U. Wait, wait, no,

433
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: we can't go any further. I'm sorry, you've never seen

434
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: an episode of Law and Order, not one, this show

435
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: that's been around for literally thirty years.

436
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't ever seen it. It's been around, but it's

437
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: so good, Chuck, I've never seen Judge Judy.

438
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 2: All right, No, I mean just but it's not really good. Now.

439
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: Just because it's been around doesn't mean I've seen it,

440
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: you know.

441
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: No, that's true. If you add the fact that it's

442
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: been around thirty years to the fact that it's been

443
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: good for the majority of those thirty years, uh huh,

444
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: then it's it's strange. I'm not saying like you're ridiculous

445
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: for not having seen it. I'm just surprised.

446
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 1: It's all sure well, or the very Lisa hasn't been on,

447
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: like when emme at somewhere for Christmas vacation or something

448
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: with a family member.

449
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a stretch where I don't even know

450
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: if A and E's still around, But there's a stretch

451
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: where A and E showed basically nothing but Law and

452
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: Order all day every day. Yeah, they would just play

453
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: it like they started the first one and just play

454
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: themsequentially and then start over when they got to the

455
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: most recent one.

456
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: Those are called the years that Chuck didn't watch A

457
00:24:59,320 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: and E.

458
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: Gotcha?

459
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: The other thing that can cut down on some criminal

460
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: cases sorry going to trial is that there's more pre

461
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: trial detention these days. So somebody sitting around in jail

462
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: waiting for a trial as much likelier to say, you know,

463
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: I'd rather just go home and cop the plea.

464
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 2: That's where it gets really dark, because pre trial detention

465
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: is meant to protect the community from people who might

466
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: otherwise comit another crime while they're on pre trial release,

467
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: or if they're a flight risk and they may not

468
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: show up at trial. That's it, but it seems to

469
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: be used as a tool with prosecutors to lean on

470
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: people to take a plea by saying you could be

471
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: in here for months, for years before your your trial

472
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: comes up, and they'll be like, well, I just I

473
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: don't want to sit around that long, Let's just take

474
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: the plea. That's that's pretty bad that they do that.

475
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: And actually they found that if you are given pre

476
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: trialed attention, you're three times likelier to take a plea

477
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: than somebody who is not detained pre trial.

478
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: Right, But the I mean that part makes sense, but

479
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: are those people do they not qualify as one of

480
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: the two reasons, I mean, like not.

481
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 2: To somebody is convinced to judge that, but it doesn't

482
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: necessarily mean that they are in every case. No, I

483
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: don't think that if you really sat down and look

484
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: case by case, that anywhere near one hundred percent of

485
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: them are a flight risk or risk to the community necessarily.

486
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: But that risk to the community in particular, that is

487
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: so sweeping in scope that yeah, you can basically you

488
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: could anybody who's who's convicted or not convicted but charged

489
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 2: with the crime enough that they can keep you in

490
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: jail until your trial. You can make a case as

491
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: a threat to the community.

492
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: Right, I got you. If you are chosen for a

493
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: jury it's probably because you're either on a voter roll,

494
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: you have paid taxes, or you drive a car and

495
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: you have a driver's license. There's the old wives sale

496
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: that if you don't register to vote, you're never going

497
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: to get called for jury service. And that's not true.

498
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: You got to be eighteen, you got to live you know,

499
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: you got out because you didn't live in that county.

500
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: You have to live in that judicial district for at

501
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: least a year. And then as far as whether or

502
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: not you need to be able to speak English, you

503
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: have to be able to speak English enough to fill

504
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: out your juror qualification forms. I would guess without help.

505
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: Didn't say that, surely that would be my guess.

506
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're not going to let your twelve year

507
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: old daughter, American born daughter come to trial with you,

508
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: you know, right, Although they do make accommodations for people

509
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: with certain disabilities.

510
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

511
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. If you're blind, if you are hard of hearing,

512
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: they will provide an oral interpreter or a sign language

513
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: interpreter for you. I read one lawyer talked about a

514
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 2: case where juror had back problems, so they'll let her

515
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: lay down for the entire trial. If you want to

516
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: be on a jury, they will go to pretty great

517
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: links to accommodate you to make sure you can. The

518
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: thing is most people don't want to be on a jury,

519
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: so there's all sorts of creative ways to get out

520
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: of it.

521
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: Would be mony of the judge was like, four, person,

522
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: will you read the verdict? Then you just hear your voice.

523
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: It's is like, all right, I'm getting up and you

524
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: see somebody with bed ed rise from behind the jury box.

525
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: What are some other means?

526
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: Oh?

527
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: Here we go. If you have been convicted of a felony,

528
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: and you haven't had your rights restored yet if you're

529
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: currently charged with a felony. I think active military usually don't.

530
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: If you're a cop or if you're a government official,

531
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: maybe some other public employees might be exempt. If you're

532
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 1: over seventy, a lot of times you can get out

533
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: of it. If you've been on a jury in the

534
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: past two years, you can probably get out of it.

535
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: If you have a hardship, like you know, if you

536
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: go in there and you're like, hey, listen, I can't

537
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: miss work because I'm a single parent and I worked

538
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: by the hour, and I literally wouldn't be able to

539
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: put food on the table for my family, right. They

540
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: consider stuff like that. Even though you do get paid,

541
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: it's just almost always, it's just not very much. It's

542
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: like thirty to fifty to sixty bucks a day.

543
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: Now, and some employers will pay you for the time

544
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: you're away. They should, they should, And I was trying

545
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: to find which ones do. The only one I could

546
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: find that stated it does is Amazon. But get this,

547
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: they they doc you the pay that the government paid you.

548
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: So like if you got paid fifty dollars a day,

549
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: you get your regular pay minus fifty dollars the government.

550
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: It's like, how much does it cost you even pay

551
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: that much attention? You know, it's a little crazy, but

552
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: they're the only ones who definitely say, yes, you don't

553
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: lose any time, you don't lose any money. So hats

554
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: off to them for that at least. But I thought

555
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: that that was a little penny pinching if you ask me.

556
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: It was. And you know, I get cases where it's

557
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: like a small business, where it would create a legitimate hardship, yes,

558
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: to pay someone for not being there. So I'm not

559
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: just saying across the board, but if you're a big company,

560
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: then you should not say sorry, go serve your civil

561
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: duty and good luck paying your bills this month.

562
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you end up in court for stealing

563
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: bread because you had to be on a jury and

564
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: your job wouldn't pay you while you were.

565
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: On said jury stealing bread.

566
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: Turn into Jean val John.

567
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: I get that rev good.

568
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: Also, federal employees are guaranteed to be paid for their

569
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: service on a jury, their regular pay, I should say,

570
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: from their job, right. But the thing is is actually

571
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: not likely, necessarily statistically speaking, that you're going to ever

572
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 2: serve on a jury. I think A twenty twelve survey

573
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: found that twenty seven percent of all US adults said

574
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: they'd served on a jury at some point in time

575
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: in their life. So it's not like a given that

576
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: you're going to serve on a jury. And actually, I

577
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: think about thirty two million people are called for jury

578
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: duty in the United States every year, that's federal and

579
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: state courts. Eight million of them report, right, So that

580
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: means what twenty four twenty six million, No, twenty four million,

581
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: I got it, finally actually even show up.

582
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: Just that's or don't share me, I should say, I

583
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: would be so afraid to just not show. Yeah, for sure,

584
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm too much of a rule follower to just roll

585
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: the dice like that exactly.

586
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: But of those eight million that do show up, only

587
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: twenty two percent of them are selected as rural jurors

588
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: rule y.

589
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: Oh man, I was watching those episodes not too long ago,

590
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: Rule juror. Yeah, none of them knew how to sport.

591
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: It was even what she was saying, right, Yeah, they

592
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: like had to find the box, right.

593
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: So uh yeah, I think I saw in five point

594
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: thirty eight you have like a point zero nine percent

595
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: chance of ever being selected for jury duty or sorry,

596
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: in a given year.

597
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: By the way, that was a thirty record difference of

598
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: people are frustrated.

599
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah right, now go check it out.

600
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: Now, we should talk about a very interesting part of

601
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 1: the jury process, which is called jury selection, or if

602
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: you're old school or French, you might call it wadir.

603
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: And I watched a lot of attorney videos about vadir.

604
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: And again, this is the process by which attorneys can

605
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: go in ask questions of a potential jury pool to

606
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: whittle it down to the twelve plus a few alternates.

607
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: And I was naive enough to think up until today

608
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: that all they were trying to do invadir was to

609
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: just get impartial people in there that wouldn't have a

610
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: real slant in the case. And what I learned from

611
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: watching every attorney video that I saw was they are,

612
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: every single one of them are looking to get jurors

613
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: on their jury who will be sympathetic to their case.

614
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're trying to do to slant the case.

615
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: Are trying to the jury box as much as possible

616
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: in their favor.

617
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the var dear process is actually pretty controversial,

618
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: but they can ask you all sorts of questions. I've

619
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: read that there's questionnaires that they give out now that

620
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: are asking increasingly like bizarre questions like what's the last

621
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: three books you read? I saw a question that one

622
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: prosecutor very frequently uses as who who do you respect?

623
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: That somebody we all know more than anybody else, And

624
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: she said that most people, No, most people say their grandmother,

625
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: and she just dismisses them immediately because they clearly can't

626
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: follow directions because it said who we all know? Right?

627
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, so they question right. They'll also scrape

628
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: your social media.

629
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: They will.

630
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: They'll they'll do whatever research they can on you to

631
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: see how you're going to vote, or to try to

632
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: just kind of suss out based on who you are,

633
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: how you present yourself, whether you're going to be rational,

634
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: and if you are going to be rational, which direction

635
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: you would be likely to go.

636
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, Olivia found a guy, an attorney who basically sort

637
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: of gives advice to other attorneys and what to do,

638
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: and he's like, here, you know, most people won't come

639
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: right out and say they have bias, So just get

640
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: them in a conversation, get them chit chatty, get them talking,

641
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: and they'll probably reveal something they don't want you to

642
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: know or pay attention to their body language, look at

643
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: their personality, like if they're really super opinionated, then they

644
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: might be more likely to hang a jury, or if

645
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: they're really withdrawn and awkward around people, they might be

646
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: more likely to hang a jury. And again, he was

647
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: the one that said get on Facebook or Twitter or

648
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: whatever and dig up their pass right exactly.

649
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: And so you also want to kind of lead them

650
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: in ways that they are not expecting to reveal their biases, because,

651
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: like you said, they're not going to just be like,

652
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: I actually have a problem with poor people, they would say.

653
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: So instead of asking them like, do you have a

654
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: problem seeing poor people as your equal, you would say like,

655
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: I think we can all agree that we have trouble

656
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: seeing poor people as our equals, right, And then just

657
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: see who nods emphatically. We're all guilty of this, right, right, exactly.

658
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: That's kind of what they would do. And then interesting,

659
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: you know, everybody raise your hand, that kind of thing.

660
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: So they're really trying to massage out of you who

661
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: you really are in ways that you might not even

662
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: realize you are until they get to the people that

663
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: are they think are least likely to vote against their client.

664
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 2: And I saw it described as not selecting a jury.

665
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: You actually deselect potential jurors until you end up with

666
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: twelve people left plus the alternates.

667
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. There's

668
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: something else called peremptory challenge that and here's it's legally speaking,

669
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: you can't eliminate someone on the basis of race or sex.

670
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: And a peremptory challenge is when you say, listen, I

671
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: just want to throw this person out, and I don't

672
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: want to give a reason why. We each get a

673
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: certain number of these that we don't have to explain.

674
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: And that gets really tricky when you're talking about race

675
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: or sex, because basically, all you have to do if

676
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: the other attorney says, well, wait a minute, I object

677
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: to your peremptory challenge of this potential jur because they're black,

678
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: and that's the only reason you did that, And all

679
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: the other prosecutor whoever defendant, has to do is say, oh, well,

680
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: that's not the reason. It's because of this right, and

681
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: they basically are. I mean, it's not rubber stamped, but

682
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: that's kind of all you have to do is just

683
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: defend it with one other reason.

684
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all based on an eighty six Supreme Court

685
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: case called Batsan versus Kentucky, where prosecutors used preemptive challenges

686
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: to remove all four African American potential jurors from the

687
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: jury and the defendant was an African American accused of burglary,

688
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: so they tried to basically root out anybody that they

689
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: thought would would vote against the guy's prosecution based on race,

690
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: and so that now it's called the Batsan challenge. The

691
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 2: Supreme Court said, you can't do that, but they follow

692
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: it up in nineteen ninety five on another one where

693
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: a prosecutor dismissed the two African American potential jurors from

694
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: the jury pool because of their long hair and go tee,

695
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: and the Supreme Court said, that's fine, you can do that.

696
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to give a reason that

697
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: even makes sense. You just have to give a reason

698
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: that's not based on race.

699
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there are classes in training and there

700
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: are manuals for prosecutors that basically say, here's how to

701
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: get a black person off your jury. Blame it on this,

702
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: blame it on this, blame it on this, and you'll

703
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: be fine.

704
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the US legal system has like a long

705
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: standing history of like new and creative ways to keep

706
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: minorities off of juries because they feel, especially if you're

707
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, if you can get white men in there,

708
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: you're probably going to get a conviction.

709
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. There was a twenty twenty twelve study and this

710
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: is North Carolina death penalty cases, and it found that

711
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: black people were removed from juries twice as often as

712
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: members of other races. And I think now, even like

713
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: if your support like the Black Lives Matter movement, it's

714
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: being debated right now, whether that's enough just cause to

715
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: get someone booted from a jury.

716
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's a lawsuit from a potential jury

717
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: that was dismissed because of that that's not been decided yet.

718
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's just so disrespectful.

719
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 2: And then it also just presumes that you know, black

720
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: jurds wouldn't be able to set aside any bias like

721
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 2: any other jur would be able to and just do

722
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: their civic duty. It's just pretty despicable all around. But

723
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: it's really really common from what I can tell, as

724
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: far as trials go. Criminal trials.

725
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about this one more thing before we

726
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: go to break it is the second great band name

727
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: I failed to mention the first, but I think Voasder

728
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: is a great band name. Oh yeah, because I don't

729
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: even think we've said what it meant in French that

730
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: means to speak the truth.

731
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: It's maybe the best band name we've ever run across, Chuck,

732
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: So it's.

733
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: Kind of a hyphalutin band name, like, oh, you know

734
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: what it means to speak the truth in French. But

735
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: the next great man name is death qualified. Yeah. This

736
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: is if you are in a death penalty case. In

737
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: a capital case, a perspective juror is supposed to be

738
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: death qualified, meaning that you shouldn't be on the jury

739
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: if you are someone who will absolutely refuse to impose

740
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: the death penalty because of your moral and ethical stance

741
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 1: on the death penalty.

742
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 2: And that is a whole other ball of wax, because

743
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: if you root out the people who are opposed to

744
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,959
Speaker 2: the death penalty, all you have left on the jury

745
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: are people who are in favor of the death penalty, right,

746
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 2: So they're not only more likely to convict, they're more

747
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: likely to recommend death, which you don't really want. Like

748
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: any you don't want it skewed one way or the other.

749
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 2: In a case like that. But then secondly, also I've

750
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: read that just being talked to about the death penalty

751
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: and asked whether you would be able to render a

752
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: judgment that recommended the penalty of death if it came

753
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: to that apparently has the effect on jurors of basically

754
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: making them think that the court thinks this guy is

755
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: so guilty that we have to talk about the death

756
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: penalty now, right, and that it actually stacks the deck

757
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: again against the defendant's favor as far as that goes,

758
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: because they just go into it thinking that they're guilty,

759
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: and then all they're focused on is whether or not

760
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: they're going to give the guy the death sentence.

761
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: Right. There was a case in nineteen sixty nine Witherspoon v.

762
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: Illinois where the Supreme Court said that even if you

763
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: have an opposition philosophically or ethically to the death penalty

764
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't be able to serve run

765
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: a jury in a capital case where you basically are saying, well, listen,

766
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: I may not believe in it, but I'm willing to

767
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: support the laws that are in place as being you know, valid,

768
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: and so I will support those laws.

769
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a very trick. Do you think you'd

770
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: be able to do it?

771
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to answer that, Okay, I.

772
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: Asked myself, and I don't think I would. I'm not

773
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: opposed to the death penalty, and necessarily I'm kind of

774
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: like wishy washy on it, but I don't think I

775
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 2: could recommend somebody be put to death. I just don't

776
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: think I could do it.

777
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: It's pretty heavy.

778
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: It's super heavy. Although I mean, context is everything, right,

779
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: if this is like some ridiculously heinous crime and the

780
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: person I thought the person deserved to die, maybe I could.

781
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. Now I understand why you didn't want

782
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 2: to answer that question after I've done my shpiel.

783
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's heavy.

784
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: It is very heavy.

785
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: Too heavy for this sunny afternoon for me to make

786
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: that decision, right. Uh. I will make a decision on

787
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: the break though, because we are forty five minutes in

788
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: and we haven't even taken our second break sustained.

789
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: Wow, Chuck, we are forty five minutes and time flies

790
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: when you're talking about legal procedure. So another this is

791
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: what I was talking about at the very beginning. There's

792
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: so much interesting cultural stuff going on. With juris that

793
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: I had no idea about. And one thing that's kind

794
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: of come up recently is whether or not a jury

795
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: has to be unanimous, which I always thought it did,

796
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: but that's not always been the case actually, and it's still.

797
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: Not now now, I think. In twenty nineteen, the American

798
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: Bar Association said that this is happening more and more

799
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: non unanimous verdicts, and these are usually in misdemeanor or

800
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: civil cases, and it's like a depends on the state

801
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: in the jury, but it's usually like three fourths or

802
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: maybe five six if it's just a six person set

803
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: of juries, set of juries, set of jurors. And you know,

804
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I thought it was kind of

805
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: across the board unanimous these days. In twenty twenty, Scotis

806
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: said that the sixth Amendment does require unanimous verdicts in

807
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: felony cases in the state in federal courts. But when

808
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: they made this law in twenty twenty, Oregon and Louisiana

809
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: were the only states that allowed non unanimous felonies. Everyone

810
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: else basically said you had to be unanimous on felonies,

811
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: and I think only I think only Oregon changed that

812
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: since then, that Louisiana dug in.

813
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: No, they both changed it. But Oregon said all those

814
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: people who were convicted non unanimously. Trial in Louisiana said.

815
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: Nah, that's really thorny two.

816
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 2: But those those non unanimous laws are from the thirties

817
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: that were meant to help dilute the jury so that

818
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: if you did end up with minorities on the jury,

819
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 2: you could let all the white people agree to have

820
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: the minority defendant, you know, put to death or something

821
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: like that.

822
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: Right, And speaking of capital sentencing, there are twenty seven

823
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: states that have the death penalty, and almost all of

824
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: them require unanimous vote for the death sentence except four

825
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: drum Roll Alabama, and very recently Florida passed legislation that said, nah,

826
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: we can put someone to death. It doesn't have to

827
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: be unanimous.

828
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like Supreme Court, you said that it has

829
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: to be unanimous with felony cases. You didn't say anything

830
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 2: about death sentencing. So now in Florida, as little as

831
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: eight of the twelve jurors agreeing that the person should

832
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: be put to death means you will be put to death.

833
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 2: You can get the death sentence if three fourths of

834
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: the Yeah, reforce of the jury says, yeah, isn't that crazy,

835
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: And it was based as a reaction on well it

836
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: was past, I should say, as a reaction yeah, to

837
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: Disney taking a stand on don't say gay. It was

838
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: meant to be a real shot across Disney's bow. No,

839
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: it was a response to the Parkland shooter, the Marjorie

840
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in twenty eighteen. The jury

841
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: could not agree on giving him the death sentence, so

842
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: he got life instead, and a lot of the state,

843
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: both liberal and conservative, were like, that is wrong. So

844
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: I think people who had wanted to pass that law

845
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: for a really long time saw their chance and they

846
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: did so. Yeah, that's how it is in Florida right now.

847
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: One of the last sort of technical things we could

848
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: cover here is something called jury nullification, and that is

849
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: a long standing tradition dating back to when colonial jury said,

850
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 1: you know what, these British taxes and laws aren't fair,

851
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna even though the law says that

852
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 1: they're guilty, we're going to refuse to send a guilty verdict.

853
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: And that has happened a lot over the years. During abolition,

854
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: the fugitive slave clause said you have to you have

855
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: to help apprehend runaway slaves as a citizen if you

856
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: know that they're out there and you know about it.

857
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: And there were abolitionists who are like, no, I'm gonna

858
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: use my right for jury nullification to acquit these people,

859
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: because no one should have to apprehend runaway slaves.

860
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: On the other hand, conversely, it's also been used by

861
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: white juries to avoid convicting people who were involved in lynchings,

862
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: so it definitely cuts both ways. And then also it's

863
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: a way to kind of erode at laws that are

864
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: viewed as unjust or unfair, like it was used a

865
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 2: lot in prohibition cases issues a lot with marijuana possession.

866
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: And you said something about the jury exercising their right.

867
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 2: Some legal theorists say this is the right of the jury,

868
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: like it's up to them to make a decision and

869
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: to vote by their conscience, right.

870
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

871
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: Other people are like, no, they're supposed to make a

872
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: verdict based on the law and their understanding of the law,

873
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: and they're flouting that in this case. But I think,

874
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: I mean, as it stands, it's not something that gets

875
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,959
Speaker 2: promoted a lot, but it is allowed. Like you can't

876
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: really do anything about it. You could appeal, I think,

877
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: but I don't know how often they do.

878
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, it's not the kind of thing that they will,

879
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: like you inform the jury of how it all works.

880
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: They don't say. And by the way, there's also this option.

881
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: It's just I guess you just got to know about it.

882
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: I imagine the abortion laws they're going to be is

883
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: going to put this to the test in the near future.

884
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: I guess it depends on the state.

885
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, Yeah, and then this last bit

886
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: is fairly reassuring. I think. O Livia has this section

887
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: here titled should we trust juries? And we should generally

888
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: trust juries. There's been all kinds of studies and reviews

889
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: and things, and they all basically usually say the same thing,

890
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: which is, in general, juries are going to be or

891
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 1: durors are going to be fairly rational, they're going to

892
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: be methodical, and they're going to take it seriously.

893
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they found like they love studying juries because

894
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: there's a lot of really interesting psychology to be found in,

895
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: like psychology of crowds and stuff by studying juries. And

896
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: they found that typically juries, when they do deliberations, go

897
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: one of two ways. They either go verdict driven, where

898
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: they basically take a straw pole and then they say, Okay,

899
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: most people think he's guilty, but these people think he's innocent.

900
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 2: Let's figure out how to get to either all innocent

901
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: or all guilty unanimous vote. Or they go evidence driven,

902
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: where they kind of lay all the evidence on the

903
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: table and they go through it together and then come

904
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: to a conclusion of inno sense or guilt. And it's

905
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: interesting that that's it, Like, those are the two like

906
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 2: and that people have organically figured out how to do that. Yeah,

907
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: and then it's basically like there's two paths and each

908
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: jury kind of figures it out on their own.

909
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. As far as being in the room and changing

910
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: someone's mind, what Olivia calls the twelve angry men scenario

911
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: from the famous movie, that doesn't happen that often, and

912
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: that's the case where it's like one juror really sways

913
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: the rest of the jury in a different direction. Something

914
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: that does happen about ten percent of the time is

915
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: that the jury will end up with a different verdict

916
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: than what they previously kind of like near the beginning

917
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: of deliberations, thoughts like the whole jury will end up

918
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: sort of changing their mind.

919
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they found that pro aquittal factions that are equal

920
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: in size to pro conviction factions are four times likelier

921
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: to sway the jury toward acquittal. There's just what's called

922
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: a leniency effect that the jury as a whole is

923
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: more likely to acquit than individual jurors. Yeah, pretty interesting stuff.

924
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: We talked a little bit about why you would want

925
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: to waive a jury trial, and there's it's strategically speaking,

926
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: it makes sense in some cases.

927
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, statistically speaking, you are better off

928
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: with a judge, believe it or not. I think thirty

929
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: eight this was in twenty eighteen. A Few Research Center

930
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: report said that thirty eight percent of those who were

931
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: tried by a judge were acquitted, compared to fourteen percent

932
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: in front of a jury. And you know, if you're

933
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: meeting with your representative and like, you know, what should

934
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: I do? What should I do? They're going to say, hey, listen,

935
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: a judge is probably gonna believe cops more than a

936
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: jury might. If you have a really emotional case, a

937
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: jury is going to be more swayed by that kind

938
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: of thing. If you've got like a really good story,

939
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: you might It's easier to get an appeal if you're

940
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 1: in front of a jury trial, if it like technical

941
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: mumbo jumbo and it comes down to that, then a

942
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: bench trial was probably better because you might just end

943
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: up confusing the jury. And generally, you know, it's a

944
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: shorter experience, it's a little less oh, I don't know, dramatic.

945
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: I guess when you don't have twelve people staring at you,

946
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, totally just one angry judge for sure.

947
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: So it really does pay to really stop and think

948
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: about what your case calls for, whether a bench trial

949
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: or a jury trial.

950
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: Just ask your lawyer that's right, I'll steer you in

951
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: the right direction.

952
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: There's another thing too, you kind of touched on. There's

953
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: a myth of the runaway jury, which is a myth

954
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: that was kind of developed by defendants of civil lawsuits,

955
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: especially big, deep pocketed defendants of civil lawsuits, that these

956
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: juries they don't listen to instruction, they do what they want,

957
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: and they pay out these enormous, gobsmacking business killing awards

958
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: to people who were you know who and fell in

959
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: the Kroger or something like that. And apparently studies show

960
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: that that's not really the case. That yes, jurys do

961
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: tend to pay out more the larger the corporation is,

962
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: or award more, I should say, the larger the corporation is.

963
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: But runaway is definitely nowhere near a reality. They still

964
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 2: typically act within the bounds of normalcy.

965
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've done mock jury's where they've put it to

966
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: the test, and yeah, you know, if you're I think

967
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: the one that Lvia found there was an attorney who

968
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: did one with a trip and fall cases and they

969
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: were mocked jurors and none of it was real. But

970
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: if it was like someone suing their neighbor, they awarded

971
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: the plane of like twenty two grand. If it was

972
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 1: your local mom and pop hardware store where you slipped

973
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: and fell, they'd award you seventy grand. But boy, if

974
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: it was home deep or lows one hundred thousand.

975
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 2: Dollars, man, you know they'd be sweating that. There's also

976
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: we talked about it before, but before we go, the

977
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 2: McDonald's coffee case from nineteen ninety four, where a woman

978
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: was awarded almost three million dollars for spilling McDonald's coffee

979
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: in her lap, and it was basically touted as an

980
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: example of runaway jury kind of stuff. But if you

981
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 2: are unfamiliar with that case or you're still walking around

982
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: thinking that it was a ridiculous award, you should definitely

983
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: find I don't remember the name of it, but there

984
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: was a great documentary done on it that really shows

985
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: just how poorly the media did their job on reporting

986
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: on that. Yeah, a good one.

987
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: It's a good one.

988
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: And then one more thing. The New York Times is

989
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: a really cool interactive thing where you can go on

990
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: and you go through like a kind of like an

991
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: interactive jury selection and decide. It tells you whether you're

992
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 2: likely or to be dismissed or chosen by the defense

993
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 2: or the prosecution. It's pretty cool.

994
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: I failed. What'd you get?

995
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,439
Speaker 2: I got dismissed too.

996
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got dismissed. I felt bad too, because mine

997
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: was like a corporate case and it said like you

998
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: were more likely to come down in favor of the man. Basically, yeah,

999
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: he was like, no, I'm not.

1000
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: No, let me retake minded too. It said the defense

1001
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: loves you, but then the prosecution just cut you.

1002
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, oh what are you gonna do?

1003
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: So? Yeah, that's it. That's it about juries. Everybody, if

1004
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 2: you're ever called for jury duty, and you go, let

1005
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 2: us know how it goes. And since I said that, everybody,

1006
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: it's time for a listener Maya.

1007
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this just a quick NERF follow up. Hey, guys,

1008
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: love The episode on NERF brought back a lot of

1009
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: nostalgia from a kid being in the in the mid

1010
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: to late nineties. I know you mentioned the NERF balls,

1011
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: but you also spend a lot of time detailing the blasters.

1012
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: You may have overlooked two of nrf's biggest toys, the

1013
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: Nerf Fop and the Vortex Football. The NERF Hoop gave

1014
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: my brother and I hundreds of hours of fund in

1015
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: the basement pretending to be MJ or Kobe or Shack

1016
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: depending on the day. It allowed us to be NBA

1017
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: superstars in our own basement. So I've never heard of

1018
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: the NERF hoop. I don't think.

1019
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: I was just about to say, I can't believe we

1020
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 2: failed to mention the NERF Hoop.

1021
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't have one. So it was like

1022
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: I had versions of it. I guess, like you hang

1023
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: it on a door.

1024
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had the serious Roebuck version probably, but at

1025
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: the sooner and then it came with one of those

1026
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: original nerf balls is like the basketball.

1027
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I did have one.

1028
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 2: If there was ever somebody in an eighties movie who

1029
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 2: was like trying to like hash out something in like

1030
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: a bowl session, cool, somebody was shooting hoops on a nerfop.

1031
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: Or they have one of those on like the edge

1032
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: of their waistbasket right for like you know, stuff for

1033
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: the cylindrical file. Yeah, the Vortex. I remember the Vortex

1034
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: with my dad.

1035
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: Just then.

1036
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: The Vortex was allowed to be allowed us to be

1037
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: NFL quarterbacks when we wanted to be throwing it further

1038
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: than we ever could a regular football. The Vortex howler

1039
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: was particularly fine as it whistled through the air, making

1040
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 1: unmistakable sound I could still pick out today. I remember

1041
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: the Vortex. I still have one. It's it's a little

1042
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: small football with a big long sort of rocket tail fit.

1043
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: And made a Wilhelm scream as it went through the air.

1044
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: It did, and you can really chunk those things here.

1045
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 2: A lot of fun.

1046
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: So this is a Sandwicher listening starting in twenty twenty

1047
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: and just passed into two. Sorry twenty eleven, So I

1048
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: guess they're going backwards and there. Yeah, I got you,

1049
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: I got you so start in twenty twenty. Started the

1050
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: show though in twenty two thousand and six and is

1051
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: now five years in up to twenty eleven. Yeah that

1052
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: was Kevin. Kevin from McKinney, Texas. Will hear this in

1053
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: by my math a couple of years.

1054
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: Very nice, Thanks a lot, Kevin, your time banned it

1055
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: And if you want to be like Kevin and point

1056
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,439
Speaker 2: out that we forgot something about your childhood, we want

1057
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: to hear it. You can wrap it up, spank it

1058
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: on the bottom, and send it off to stuff Podcasts

1059
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 2: ieartradio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production

1060
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio.

1061
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1062
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.