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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, December the eleventh, and

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Speaker 1: the defense rests in the case of Brian Walsh. And no,

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Speaker 1: he did not take the stand. And with that, welcome

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Speaker 1: to this episode of Amy and TJ Roads. Does it

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Speaker 1: sound weird to say that I was I was really

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Speaker 1: hoping he was going to testify.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it would have been beyond fascinating from a from

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Speaker 2: a just a personal preference.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Yes, I don't want to hear from

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Speaker 3: him to be disappointed. Yes, but you know what, what

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Speaker 3: he is claiming is so out there that I want

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Speaker 3: to hear him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as a juror. If he here's the deal.

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Speaker 3: I hate to say this, but if he is innocent

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Speaker 3: of the charges I and he is saying that he

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Speaker 3: found his wife debt, I want to hear how he

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Speaker 3: found her, where he found her, at what time he

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Speaker 3: found her, what condition she was in, what his thoughts

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Speaker 3: were in the moment. You want to believe someone. It

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Speaker 3: would be so nice to believe that he didn't actually

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Speaker 3: kill his wife.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. The way you put it

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Speaker 1: now is that I would give him more of a

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Speaker 1: shot if he would tell me his story. That makes sense.

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Speaker 3: In this case, what the defense is claiming that he

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Speaker 3: walked in and found his wife dead and he panicked.

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Speaker 2: I could get behind even.

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Speaker 3: The gruesomeness of what he did afterwards in the panic

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Speaker 3: of trying to protect his children from losing both parents.

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Speaker 3: I could maybe get behind it. I would want to

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Speaker 3: hear him and hear his story. It's important for me

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Speaker 3: to buy what he's selling to believe what his attorneys

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Speaker 3: are suggesting. It would go a long way to hear

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Speaker 3: him explain.

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Speaker 2: It, because it doesn't have an explanation right.

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Speaker 1: Now, because first question from the prosecutor is what where's

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Speaker 1: the body? Yes, and that is why he can't get

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Speaker 1: on the stand. What did you do with her body?

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Speaker 3: Which implies to me that he is guilty, Because if

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Speaker 3: finding her body didn't support your claims, then I understand

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Speaker 3: why you don't want them to find the body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're on fire. Now here's the thing. Can't you

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Speaker 1: prove how she died? Why don't y'all go dig her up?

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Speaker 1: You'll see that I didn't do anything to her. Damn robes.

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Speaker 1: You don't fight her.

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Speaker 3: That's a good point, correct, So, yes, there's nothing in

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Speaker 3: her system that showed I poisoned her. There's no marks

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Speaker 3: on what's left of her body that shows I strangle.

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Speaker 3: And if you have that level of confidence that you

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Speaker 3: know you did not murder her, and when they do

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Speaker 3: the autopsy and they can't find how she died, or

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Speaker 3: perhaps they can look at her heart or look at

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Speaker 3: something that could suggest natural causes, then I would be

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Speaker 3: all for that. But for you not wanting them to

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Speaker 3: find the body, and for you not wanting to testify

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Speaker 3: how you found her body, that throws a huge, huge

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Speaker 3: question mark.

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Speaker 1: And that is a huge question that I wonder will

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Speaker 1: come up if it'll come up in the jury room

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Speaker 1: twelve individuals. I bet it will. But this is where

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Speaker 1: we are now, folks, and we're giving you a They're

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Speaker 1: putting up this update earlier than we normally would because

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Speaker 1: this is the day that they had in court today.

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Speaker 1: As soon as they got in, the jury was in

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Speaker 1: and out of there because they started the day by

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Speaker 1: the defense putting on their case, which happens to be

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Speaker 1: no case robes, and first things first, they had to

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Speaker 1: find out whether or not Brian Walsh was going to

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Speaker 1: testify and look for whatever reason, legal experts thought that

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Speaker 1: there was still a chance there was still some chance

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Speaker 1: didn't make sense, but sure not. They confirmed it for

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Speaker 1: us this morn.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was reading everywhere. I was reading legal experts

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Speaker 3: saying they thought he needed.

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Speaker 2: To testify or had to testify.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, we talked to our gal, Alison Treesel, who is

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Speaker 3: a criminal defense attorney, and she made it very clear,

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Speaker 3: and we know this historically from covering plenty of murder trials,

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Speaker 3: that no defense attorney wants their client to be cross examined, period.

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Speaker 3: So I get it from a criminal defense attorney's standpoint,

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Speaker 3: But it was interesting to see a lot of articles

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Speaker 3: and a lot of legal analysts saying kind of maybe

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Speaker 3: what I was just feeling when I heard he wasn't

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Speaker 3: going to testify. As a juror, that this would be

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Speaker 3: a case if you were innocent, that you would actually

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Speaker 3: want or even maybe need your client to explain.

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Speaker 1: There is no one who can tell the story. He

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Speaker 1: is the only person on planet Earth who actually knows

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Speaker 1: what happened to Don Walsh.

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Speaker 3: As a juror, are you allowed then, I say, allowed

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Speaker 3: legally to consider it, but as a human you of

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Speaker 3: course are going to consider why then wouldn't he testify?

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Speaker 1: You can tell us, maman, we're here now, you can

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Speaker 1: actually get it all out. You know, it's as sitting

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Speaker 1: here with you now in that manner, not thinking as

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Speaker 1: a legal matter, this was the right move, of course,

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Speaker 1: as a juror, and sitting here talking to you, it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't you have to tell us the story. You

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Speaker 1: want us to believe you, but you won't talk to us.

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Speaker 1: I get that, but I don't know if a juror

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Speaker 1: will they say, okay, I get it, it's a legal thing.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't or will they hold it against him?

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Speaker 3: And you know what that is why what we've been

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Speaker 3: kind of listening to all morning, the very specific conversations, arguments,

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Speaker 3: discussions about the jury instructions going on right now with

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Speaker 3: the jury not present, because it matters so much as

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Speaker 3: a juror, common sense and as a human Yeah, if

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Speaker 3: no one else can tell the story, and you're claiming

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Speaker 3: you walked in on her and you didn't kill her,

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Speaker 3: that she was just dead, why wouldn't you tell us?

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Speaker 3: So perhaps what the judge instructs the jury to consider

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Speaker 3: and what she instructs them not to consider, will have

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Speaker 3: a huge legal impact, because yeah, common sense, human being,

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Speaker 3: this is a case where you'd be like, I kind

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Speaker 3: of need to hear what you say happened.

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Speaker 1: And now we think robes the jury. They got to

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Speaker 1: go home, They got the day today, maybe get some

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Speaker 1: Christmas shopping done.

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Speaker 3: She was saying, rest up she is, because who knows

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Speaker 3: how the jury deliberations are gonna go.

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Speaker 1: But we thought, okay, the plan was the final closing

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Speaker 1: arguments were supposed to be tomorrow. But as we sit

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Speaker 1: in as of this recording, we're seeing jury them argue

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Speaker 1: over jury instructions and this is very specific stuff. Look,

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Speaker 1: every little word matters, and they go into that jury

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Speaker 1: room what they can and can't consider. So this is

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Speaker 1: it's actually fascinating to watch. Most people might call it boring,

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Speaker 1: and it is fascinating to watch them. Mark, you said

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Speaker 1: it about Tipton. These are them. This is where you

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Speaker 1: don't even realize how good an attorney is.

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Speaker 3: Right. So we were listening to Brian Walsh's lead attorney,

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Speaker 3: who we've been talking very highly of Larry Tipton today,

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Speaker 3: but just even specifically asking whether or not they can

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Speaker 3: even recognize or instruct the jury about a potential weapon.

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Speaker 3: And his point was, if you're even going to use

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Speaker 3: the word weapon, you're insinuating there was a murder and

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Speaker 3: we're saying there wasn't a murder, and a knife or

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Speaker 3: a hacksaw.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever it was, those were all.

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Speaker 3: Posthumous tools used to dismember, which we've already copped to.

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Speaker 3: So if you you even use the word weapon, that

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Speaker 3: can sway the jury. And I thought, wow, we don't. Look,

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Speaker 3: that's not the salacious headlines that we click on or

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Speaker 3: that we talk about, or that jurors are instruct But

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Speaker 3: what's happening behind the scenes and what the jury ultimately

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Speaker 3: gets to hear or consider is so important when it

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Speaker 3: comes to how they decide things, and those are what

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Speaker 3: make like this.

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Speaker 2: These are the moments that I think.

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Speaker 3: Are what distinguishes between good lawyers and mediocre lawyers. I'm curious,

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Speaker 3: were you surprised when they said the defense rests without

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Speaker 3: calling any witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Because I'd read so much that they were going to

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Speaker 1: call that they had a plan to call witnesses. Witnesses, right,

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Speaker 1: that's been the case, so from the very beginning, I

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Speaker 1: thought they were going to put someone on. The question

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Speaker 1: only was whether or not he was going to get

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Speaker 1: up there. Now, I there is a level of confidence

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Speaker 1: they clearly have. They think that either the prosecution hasn't

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Speaker 1: made its case or the defense feels like they made

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Speaker 1: their case through the prosecution witness you which one was

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Speaker 1: it that you said? Yeah, they turned the defense turned

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Speaker 1: it into a defense witness a couple, which.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the medical examiner for sure, Yes, and

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Speaker 3: maybe you could even argue jem from yesterday and perhaps

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Speaker 3: even her best friend, who were both forced to admit

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Speaker 3: that Anna Walsh had told them privately that her husband

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Speaker 3: was not a jealous man, and that they told each

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Speaker 3: other everything, that they didn't keep any secrets, that he

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Speaker 3: was aware that she had a crush on the guy.

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Speaker 2: Who she was having an affair with.

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Speaker 3: All of that takes away from this motive that the

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Speaker 3: prosecution is trying to push for the jury.

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Speaker 2: So yes, but.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting when you don't call the I Obviously, most

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Speaker 3: notably and recently Diddy in Shawn Commb's trial, we saw

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Speaker 3: Mark Agnefello and team decide not to call any witnesses

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Speaker 3: to rest its case based on what they were able

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Speaker 3: to do in cross examination with the prosecution's witnesses. But

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Speaker 3: it's interesting because this strategy is either a strategic confidence

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Speaker 3: where you're actually signaling to the jury. Yeah, we don't

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Speaker 3: even have to put up any witnesses because we feel good.

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Speaker 3: It's also about avoiding risk. So who could they put

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Speaker 3: up that would make Brian Walsh look or appear to

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Speaker 3: be innocent, that wouldn't cause them some sort of risk.

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Speaker 1: From cross You know, when if they were going to

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Speaker 1: put witnesses together, I think they would have called Fast out.

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Speaker 1: They would have called Jim the friend who was there,

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Speaker 1: because these folks ended up saying things or giving testimony

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Speaker 1: that helped them to your point, a medical except they

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Speaker 1: went through and what they need somebody to come up

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Speaker 1: and say good things and what a great man he was.

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Speaker 1: No the people they needed to say, this was a

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Speaker 1: solid relationship from a guy who was not jealous. Now

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Speaker 1: what what's your motive? Money? No, look at this, this

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Speaker 1: is what they did for their kid. That now what

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Speaker 1: they they took away money as a motive.

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Speaker 3: He had just bought her a diamond ring that Jem

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Speaker 3: that Jem testified to seeing on New Year's Eve. The

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Speaker 3: clearly that I guess that was a Christmas gift or something.

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Speaker 3: And we saw that he was searching Blue Nile. She's

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Speaker 3: got a big beautiful new diamond ring on her hand

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Speaker 3: on New Year's Eves?

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Speaker 1: What's the motive? Money and jealousy? I got questions about

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Speaker 1: those two in listening to this trial.

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Speaker 2: Reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: I have a reasonable enough doubt that those two things

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Speaker 1: were a motive. Now we got to go to what

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Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 2: There's nobody.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't have ropes? Did I sit here with you?

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Speaker 1: I don't have, as a juror a motive for why

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Speaker 1: this guy might have killed his wife. I would like one.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to prove one, but I sure would

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Speaker 1: like to know why.

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Speaker 2: But you have an idea why?

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Speaker 3: Sitting through this trial, what is your best guess about

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Speaker 3: what his motive would have been.

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Speaker 1: My only theory is that he saw something that sent

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Speaker 1: him off on New Year's Eve that he we talked

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Speaker 1: about this, he saw something, say, wait a minute, on

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Speaker 1: this night that was so important to our family, which

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Speaker 1: was Christmas? Right, she missed Christmas morning because she was

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Speaker 1: with her lover.

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Speaker 3: We now know she spent Christmas Eve with her lover,

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Speaker 3: William Fastaut Now.

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Speaker 1: If I find that out on New Year's Eve about

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Speaker 1: to say this celebration is something like that? He could

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Speaker 1: have snapped. But as a juror, that's my theory, the

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Speaker 1: best I can come up with based on what you

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Speaker 1: all have given me.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if in closing arguments, the prosecution is going

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Speaker 3: to finally wrap up this testimony because we have been

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Speaker 3: complaining throughout the trial that it didn't feel as though

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Speaker 3: there was a Perry Mason moment or an aha, or

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Speaker 3: let me put this all together for you jury, because

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Speaker 3: what you just heard there is exactly why Brian Walsh

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Speaker 3: killed his wife.

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Speaker 1: Nope, some of the biggest Perry Mason moments happened during

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Speaker 1: opening arguments from the defense, like the moments where I

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Speaker 1: feel like things mic drops or things that it all

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Speaker 1: came from the defense, all came from the defense. You

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent right, So, folks, this seems in a

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Speaker 1: trial this high profile, with stakes this high, that the

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Speaker 1: defense wouldn't put on a defense if you will. But again,

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Speaker 1: we talked about a recent example. We're going to explain

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Speaker 1: why some say, including dear friends of ours, dear legal

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Speaker 1: friends of ours, say there's a sign here and it's

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Speaker 1: not a good one for the prosecution. Stay here, all right,

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Speaker 1: we continue Now. The Brian Walsh trial was supposed to

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Speaker 1: Robes go three plus weeks. We're at the end of

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Speaker 1: week two.

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Speaker 2: They even said four and a half weeks. At one point.

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Speaker 1: It seems like everybody wants to be home for Christmas.

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Speaker 1: But they are wrapping this up. Closing arguments are expected tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Rose We followed, I can't imagine what we'd be doing.

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Speaker 1: We would just have to do a NonStop loop of podcasts.

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Speaker 1: If we had cameras in the courtroom for that Diddy trial,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, I don't think we would have done anything this summer.

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Speaker 3: We wouldn't have gone anywhere, we wouldn't have seen friends.

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Speaker 3: We probably wouldn't have even gone out to lunch if.

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Speaker 1: They had cameras, And we damn near still were locked

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Speaker 1: inside just reading through the people who were in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember we went to my parents' home.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, right when the Ddty trial was ending, and

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Speaker 3: we didn't know it at the time. When we booked

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Speaker 3: the flights, we were going to a Georgia and we're like, Mom, Dad,

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Speaker 3: so sorry, but we're literally going to be on our

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Speaker 3: computers all damn day.

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Speaker 2: And we but it was exciting.

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Speaker 3: We were watching basically our computers, reading through Yes, reading

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Speaker 3: through the reporters who were in the courtroom and then

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Speaker 3: reacting to it in real time. It was but yes,

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Speaker 3: if you had had cameras in the court, that would

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Speaker 3: have been a whole other level.

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Speaker 1: So that's what we have. And we thought this was

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Speaker 1: going to be a longer trial. It is wrapping up

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Speaker 1: already now jury deliberations. Who knows how long those will go.

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Speaker 1: But this thing has absolutely gone quickly. And part of

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Speaker 1: that robes is that the defense decided not to put

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Speaker 1: on any witnesses. Now, I was shocked when that happened

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Speaker 1: at the Diddy trial, and this I was too recent

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Speaker 1: stuff now to where I get it. So in hearing this,

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Speaker 1: I'm not as shocked, But it sends a signal about

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Speaker 1: what the defense it feels about its case.

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Speaker 3: It basically sends the signal that they're confident, especially that

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Speaker 3: before the trial started they suggested, or at least you

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Speaker 3: have to kind of put out what you think your

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Speaker 3: witness list may or may not be, so that the

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Speaker 3: other side can look and prepare. And they had eight

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Speaker 3: people potentially on their witness list, and when they decided

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Speaker 3: not to call anyone, certainly, I mean I have to

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Speaker 3: say I was shocked at that notion.

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Speaker 2: And I also I wasn't shocked that he didn't testify.

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Speaker 1: Though, because wait, which one we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Well, in this case, in the Brian Walsh case, that's fair,

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Speaker 2: that's fair.

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Speaker 3: I was in both cases. I was not shocked that

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Speaker 3: either one did not take the stand. And in Brian

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Speaker 3: Walsh's case, his biggest obstacle was that he has this

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Speaker 3: other conviction hanging over his head, and so you've got

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Speaker 3: a prior bad act first of all, that he has

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Speaker 3: to now be cross examined about, which would question his morality,

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Speaker 3: question his ethics, question, all of these things that would

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Speaker 3: play into whether or not a juror thought, this is

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Speaker 3: a good guy who just accidentally walked in on his

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Speaker 3: wife who unexplained death scared the hell out of him.

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Speaker 3: But that wouldn't have been good. But obviously, more importantly,

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Speaker 3: it's the body issue. The first question that Brian Walsh

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Speaker 3: would have been asked under cross examination.

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Speaker 1: Is where is your wife's body? What did you do

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Speaker 1: with her body? That's it, And there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a row of police officers in the back of that

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Speaker 1: courtroom waiting to hear and as soon as he reveals

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Speaker 1: it they're going to haul ass out of there, and

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Speaker 1: they're going to find that body immediately. They're going to

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Speaker 1: take it to a medical examiner's office and determine how

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Speaker 1: that woman died. And because of that robes it was impossible.

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Speaker 1: We were holding out hope. But because when Allison brought

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Speaker 1: that up to us, Okay.

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Speaker 3: That's the first question that he's not going to be

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Speaker 3: willing to answer, which to me would signify guilt. But

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Speaker 3: I digress. I do think it's interesting. This surprised me.

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Speaker 3: I decided to google basically what the outcomes were of

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Speaker 3: defendants who decided to testify on their own behalf and

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Speaker 3: those who didn't. A Cornell Law review turns out it

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Speaker 3: doesn't probably even matter that much. Yeah, seventy seven percent

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Speaker 3: of defendants who testified on their own behalf were convicted.

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Speaker 3: Seventy two percent of those who did not testify on

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Speaker 3: their own behalf were convicted. So there's a five percent

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Speaker 3: difference between defending yourself on the stand or not.

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Speaker 1: Generally speaking, most people that go to trial are guilty.

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Speaker 2: So that is where we're starting from. Okay, that is true.

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Speaker 3: For you to get to the level at which you

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Speaker 3: are now in trial, accused of murder, chances are, statistically speaking,

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Speaker 3: you're probably guilty. There obviously are innocent people who are

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Speaker 3: taken to trial and even convicted, for sure.

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Speaker 2: We know that, we talk about it all the time.

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Speaker 3: But yes, when you get to that point, it's likely

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Speaker 3: you are dealing with trying to say you're not guilty

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Speaker 3: when you actually are.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, folks, as we wrap up here, we

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Speaker 1: are still watching as they continue with jury instructions. They're

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Speaker 1: arguing over jury instructions rooms. But as we wrap up here,

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Speaker 1: the longer this goes, this is going to push maybe

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Speaker 1: the schedule back. She says she wanted to give them

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Speaker 1: all afternoon right to work on their closing arguments, so

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Speaker 1: she wanted to not be doing this this afternoon. We'll

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Speaker 1: see how long this has to go.

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Speaker 3: Now, Yes, because you know, it's curious. Obviously the defense knew.

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Speaker 3: I wonder at what point they made their decision not

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Speaker 3: to call any witnesses. I wonder at what point Brian

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Speaker 3: Walsh decided not to testify. It's interesting because did he

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Speaker 3: know it from the beginning. Was he basing it off

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Speaker 3: of how the trial went?

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Speaker 2: That's curious.

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Speaker 3: So have they had time to prepare their closing are

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Speaker 3: you I'm thinking, was the prosecution anticipating this?

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Speaker 2: Did they have to.

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Speaker 3: Say, you know, what could be that he doesn't testify,

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Speaker 3: they don't bring anyone up onto the witness stand, and

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Speaker 3: we got to be ready to go on Friday.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how you had your best They have

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Speaker 3: been calling up their witnesses and having to be ready

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Speaker 3: for all of that testimony and all of that. Did

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Speaker 3: they even have the correct amount of time to get

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Speaker 3: ready for closing arguments? I don't know how it works,

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Speaker 3: but it seems like now, all of a sudden, it's like,

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Speaker 3: holy crap, we got to get our shit together by

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Speaker 3: tomorrow ret row. But maybe that's just me.

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Speaker 1: You know what you said, if he knew ahead of time,

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Speaker 1: if Brian wash maybe knew, and I'll remind you of it.

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Speaker 1: This was always will stand out to me. At the

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Speaker 1: end of the Ditty trial, we text a friend of ours,

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Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, and say, hey, what do you make

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Speaker 1: of it that Diddy's defense team didn't call any witnesses.

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Speaker 1: She immediately responded, because they think they've already won, so

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Speaker 1: if they are comfortable, they would do anything that they

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Speaker 1: think would help their case. They think they put on

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Speaker 1: the best case they have without calling a single witness.

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Speaker 1: I am, I am so curious to see what this

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Speaker 1: jury does.

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Speaker 3: You know what's so interesting is that even when you

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Speaker 3: follow a trial like we have from start to finish,

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Speaker 3: there have still been plenty of shocking outcomes where you've

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Speaker 3: seen it and you think, oh, that person's so guilty,

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Speaker 3: and the jury comes back Yep, not guilty. It happens

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Speaker 3: all the time. I'm curious. I am so fascinated by

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Speaker 3: how long the jury will deliberate, especially with a Christmas

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Speaker 3: deadline hanging over their heads and Hanikah as well. So

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Speaker 3: it's like, you know, depending on who that we don't

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Speaker 3: even know. Do we even know what the Duram make up?

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Speaker 3: I haven't either, But it is one of those trials

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Speaker 3: where I actually can say, having sat through it, I

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Speaker 3: know what I feel, but I have no idea what

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Speaker 3: this jury is going to come back with.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a sense of what you think may happen?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm gonna give it some more thought and we'll

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Speaker 1: hop back on here and give you really our opinions

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Speaker 1: of what. And we have watched this very closely, almost

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Speaker 1: every single moment of testimony in this trial, so we

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Speaker 1: will talk about it more. But folks, we always appreciate

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Speaker 1: you spending some time here with us as we continue

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Speaker 1: to update you about this Brian Walsh trial. Again, Closing

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Speaker 1: arguments are scheduled now for Tomorrow Friday for my dear Amy.

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Speaker 1: We're welcome. TJ. Holmes talk to y'll soon