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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world,

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Speaker 2: it is so great to have you here. Back for

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Speaker 2: another episode as we, of course break down the psychology

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Speaker 2: of our twenties. Today, my lovely listeners, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: something a little bit different, a little bit less positive,

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Speaker 2: a little bit less uplifting than I'm sure you guys

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Speaker 2: are used to. In fact, like the complete opposite of

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Speaker 2: all of that. We are talking about hate and why

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Speaker 2: we secretly love to hate, why we secretly love being haters.

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Speaker 2: Be honest with me here, there is something in all

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Speaker 2: of us, whether you are in touch with it or not,

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Speaker 2: that may be slightly envious of other success even if

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Speaker 2: you try not to be, that maybe enjoys the drama

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Speaker 2: of reality TV, even if you know, like, oh, maybe

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Speaker 2: this isn't the best, that secretly kind of gets hooked

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Speaker 2: by public outrage or by cancel culture, that enjoys being

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Speaker 2: a hater. I'll be honest. You know, sometimes I get

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Speaker 2: way too into celebrity drama. It's like my guilty pleasure

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Speaker 2: when I know I shouldn't, when I know that you

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Speaker 2: know ninety percent of it is incorrect, and especially when

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Speaker 2: I know how hard it is to receive public hate

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Speaker 2: and have a lot of angry people in your DM

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Speaker 2: saying awful things. But it's like the same reason that

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Speaker 2: we get drawn to gossip or wanting to know what

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Speaker 2: couples argue about. We love the heightened sensation and the

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Speaker 2: social element to hating on other people. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: I would make a pretty good guess that everyone listening

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Speaker 2: has felt this weird emotion at some point in their lives,

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Speaker 2: whether you want to acknowledge it or not. There is

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Speaker 2: no shame here. We're just here to talk openly about

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Speaker 2: the human experience. And I think, like every emotion, hate,

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Speaker 2: specifically the kind of hate we're talking about now, which

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Speaker 2: is a little bit more benign, it has a story.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person. But the

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Speaker 2: extent to which we engage in our desire to hate

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Speaker 2: other people or hate on other people, that is what

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Speaker 2: takes it from just a thought a thought that we

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Speaker 2: ultimately have control over to something else entirely. And so

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Speaker 2: that is what we are going to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: We're going to look at where this like secret hatred

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Speaker 2: kind of comes from, why it, like biologically feels so

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Speaker 2: good even if we don't wanted to, the guilt hangover

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Speaker 2: that comes afterwards, The psychology of gossip, the psychology of

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Speaker 2: cancel culture, why our closest friends are sometimes our biggest haters,

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Speaker 2: and so much more might be a little bit of

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Speaker 2: an uncomfortable conversation, but I also think the psychology is

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Speaker 2: so fascinating and like mind blowing to me. So without

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Speaker 2: further ado, let's talk about why we secretly love to

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Speaker 2: be a hater. Stay with us, So to begin by

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Speaker 2: answering a very simple question, what drives us to kind

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Speaker 2: of hate on other people a little bit? Why does it, again,

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Speaker 2: sometimes feel so fulfilling to sit down and have like

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Speaker 2: a ridiculous gossip session, to hate watch reality TV, or

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Speaker 2: maybe like see a public figure that you really don't

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Speaker 2: like flounder. Why does that make us feel, you know,

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Speaker 2: almost good? The first thing we need to know, although

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Speaker 2: this may sound controversial, it is a fact there is

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Speaker 2: no such thing as a bad emotion. There are negative

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Speaker 2: emotions that can leave us feeling bad, or there are

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Speaker 2: emotions that can maybe influence us to do bad things,

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Speaker 2: But the idea that an emotion is wholly evil, impure,

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Speaker 2: and to be avoided at all costs is false. A

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Speaker 2: lot of the reason why we see emotions like anger

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Speaker 2: hate as bad is because of the influence of religion

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Speaker 2: and how we've also been socially conditioned, shunned, and shamed

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Speaker 2: for certain feelings that ultimately, yes, may be uncomfortable, may

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Speaker 2: lead to bad actions, but still serve a weird biological,

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Speaker 2: psychological purpose, and disliking things, maybe even disliking other people

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Speaker 2: is no different. Now, quick clarification here, we are not

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Speaker 2: talking about hate that turns into discrimination or hate that

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Speaker 2: turns into prejudice. We are not talking about hate crimes

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Speaker 2: and trying to justify those. No, the feeling of hate

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Speaker 2: and the actions we take in response to them are separate.

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Speaker 2: But more importantly, the kind of hate we're talking about

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Speaker 2: is an intense dislike that kind of serves as information

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Speaker 2: information on our values, on our insecurities, our fears, our misunderstandings,

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Speaker 2: that we have a choice to either engage in dismiss

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Speaker 2: or work through, and that choice is really important. The

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Speaker 2: thing about hatred is that, probably more than any other emotion,

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Speaker 2: we have been told to suppress it, and it has

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Speaker 2: been demonized, whether rightly or wrongly. But that may actually

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Speaker 2: be what causes it to feel so good when we

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Speaker 2: finally do get to experience it kind of more in

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Speaker 2: like a pop culture or like social context. This is

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Speaker 2: the Catharsis theory of hate. The very fact that we

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Speaker 2: are told not to feel it makes it so that

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Speaker 2: when we indulge, when we hate on a celebrity, when

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Speaker 2: we see some and fail, it's like this pressure is released.

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Speaker 2: We finally do the forbidden thing, and that mix of naughtiness,

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Speaker 2: the build up, the inherent social part of this as well,

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Speaker 2: is what brings a lot of people satisfaction with being

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Speaker 2: a hater. There's been so much research over the years

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Speaker 2: about why hate feels good. Another theory is that it's

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Speaker 2: because it's so intense that it feels this way. It's

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Speaker 2: just the intensity and the strength of the emotion that

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Speaker 2: makes it almost pleasurable. It's that intensity that causes our

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Speaker 2: brain to be flooded with neurotransmitters that we usually associate

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Speaker 2: with happy positive emotions things like dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline. Few

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Speaker 2: other emotional states cause people to act as irrationally, boldly,

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Speaker 2: sometimes as terribly as hate does. Few emotions feel as

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Speaker 2: powerful and strong and therefore sometimes as good. Some very

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Speaker 2: interesting research actually from only a couple of years ago

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, actually found as well that hate is

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Speaker 2: one of the only so called negative emotions that can

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Speaker 2: actually coexist with happiness. So it's possible to be hateful

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Speaker 2: and to hate on other people and to also still

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Speaker 2: be happy at the same time, Whereas when we feel

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Speaker 2: other negative emotions like envy, like anxiety, like grief, often

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Speaker 2: that means the absence of happiness. So it's interesting that

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Speaker 2: like hate kind of sits in this weird in between.

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Speaker 2: Is it a negative emotion? Is it a positive emotion

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Speaker 2: because it makes us feel good? But socially we've been

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Speaker 2: conditioned and we know that it doesn't always lead to

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Speaker 2: good outcomes. That's what makes it so confusing. So yes,

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Speaker 2: it is not just you hate has this weirdly enjoyable

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Speaker 2: tinge to it. And what is one of the primary

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Speaker 2: ways we express our dislike or hate for someone else? Gossip? Gossip?

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Speaker 2: What some people call the oldest human language. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about it for a second. Every single one of us gossips.

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Speaker 2: Let's just put it out there. I don't know anyone

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Speaker 2: who doesn't. They might not label it as gossip, but

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Speaker 2: it still is, even if we know we shouldn't, even

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Speaker 2: if we have been the victim of it, even if

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Speaker 2: we try our hardest not to like it or not

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Speaker 2: to indulge in it. Gossip is essentially a pretty ancient

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Speaker 2: survival mechanism. It is what it has allowed us to

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Speaker 2: navigate social contexts for as long as humans have been

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Speaker 2: able to communicate. Let's do a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: very ancient history lesson. In a tribe of one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty people or even more, you know, our ancestors

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Speaker 2: couldn't know everyone personally, and yet they needed to know

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Speaker 2: who was trustworthy, who was a potential threat, and who

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Speaker 2: should be avoided. Gossip therefore serves as kind of a

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Speaker 2: form of social intelligence, a way to basically learn about

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Speaker 2: the reputation and behaviors of others in the group without direct,

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Speaker 2: potentially risky interactions, and without having to watch them constantly

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Speaker 2: to really know what kind of person they are. In

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Speaker 2: this way, you know, some people do call gossip a

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Speaker 2: deeply pro social act. It helps to enforce social norms,

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Speaker 2: builds a sense of community and trust within an in

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Speaker 2: group by sharing this private information. It also allows us

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Speaker 2: to police or monitor other people's behavior, a group's behavior

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Speaker 2: without resorting to violence or confrontation. It's a very fundamental

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Speaker 2: part of human social bonding. If you're thinking, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: not buying it, there's literally no way gossip has ever

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Speaker 2: been helpful. I totally get where you're coming from. I

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Speaker 2: think we have all been at the sharp end of

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Speaker 2: someone else's hateful thoughts or opinions about us expressed through gossip.

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Speaker 2: But a way that me and my friends have used

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Speaker 2: gossip is actually to stay safe when dating. So one

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Speaker 2: of our friends went on the state with this guy

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Speaker 2: a couple of months ago and had a pretty terrible,

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Speaker 2: kind of scary experience with this guy. Anyways, a few

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Speaker 2: months later, we're at a party. She got to speaking

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Speaker 2: to a girl at this party, and this girl was like,

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Speaker 2: had just mentioned that she just met this same guy

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Speaker 2: and it's kind of interested in this guy and they're

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Speaker 2: kind of dating. You can guess how that conversation went down.

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Speaker 2: You know, my friend told the girl what happened to

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Speaker 2: make sure she was cautious. She didn't say, like, don't

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Speaker 2: date this person. She was basically just like, hey, this

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Speaker 2: is just information you need to know. You can do

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Speaker 2: with it what you wish. And the other girl was

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Speaker 2: super appreciative. In this way, that is gossip, and that

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Speaker 2: gossiping could have prevented her from going through the same

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Speaker 2: awful experience that my friend had. This leads to a

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Speaker 2: really crucial nuance. Sometimes gossip isn't about being malicious at all.

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Speaker 2: It's actually about a need for emotional processing and validation

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Speaker 2: when direct confrontation isn't an option. Think about a time

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Speaker 2: when you know you were so hurt or frustrated by someone,

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Speaker 2: but you additionally felt like it was inappropriate to actually

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Speaker 2: like express it to them. Maybe it was your boss.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was like a subtle betrayal from a friend,

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Speaker 2: and you can't confront them because you're in this big

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Speaker 2: friendship group. It's going to make things awkward. The dislike

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Speaker 2: that is bubbling in these circumstances, Well, gossip may be

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Speaker 2: a way of externalizing what we have already said is

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Speaker 2: a very intense emotion. It's like a form of venting

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Speaker 2: of saying this happened, and it hurt and I'm feeling

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Speaker 2: a real wave of negativity. Am I crazy to be

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Speaker 2: upset about this? Your social circle then kind of acts

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Speaker 2: as a jury that validates your feelings, validates your perspective,

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Speaker 2: but also gives you this outlet for a very uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: emotion that isn't going to completely destroy the relationship in question.

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Speaker 2: This is why some researchers have claimed gossip maybe a

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Speaker 2: form of emotional regulation for our hatred. Just like hate

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Speaker 2: feels good and gossip feels good, there's also this other

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Speaker 2: element of seeing someone else fail and that feeling good.

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Speaker 2: It's so even saying that and acknowledging that that is

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Speaker 2: a feeling that we have makes me feel like, oh,

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Speaker 2: probably shouldn't be talking about it. That's very It's a

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Speaker 2: secret human thing, but it's true. It's true sometimes it

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Speaker 2: makes us feel good. This very powerful feeling has a name.

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Speaker 2: It's referred to asure schnaden freud in German, and it's

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Speaker 2: basically a word that refers to the way in which

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Speaker 2: we take pleasure from hearing about someone else's misfortune. And

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Speaker 2: it's a real thing. Brain imaging studies have shown that

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Speaker 2: when we experience schnaden freud, I hope I'm pronouncing it right.

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Speaker 2: When we experience shaden freud, there we go, I butchered it.

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Speaker 2: Shaden freud. The brain's reward system, specifically this area called

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Speaker 2: the ventral striatum, which we talk about a lot on

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Speaker 2: the podcast. It lights up, It gives us a rush

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Speaker 2: of feel good in europe chemicals, a whole big cocktail

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Speaker 2: of them. This is actually the same part of our

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Speaker 2: brain that activates when you eat chocolate, when you fall

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Speaker 2: in love, when you experience any other different types of pleasure.

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Speaker 2: This reward is also tied to feelings of superiority. When

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Speaker 2: someone we resent or feel is better than us fails

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Speaker 2: when they do something wrong or we interpret them to

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Speaker 2: be doing something irritating or bad, it reaffirms our own

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Speaker 2: sense of self worth, even for a brief moment, and

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Speaker 2: that therefore restores a sense of justice or balance in

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Speaker 2: our minds, especially if that person is someone who has

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Speaker 2: previously harmed us or who has previously laughed at our missteps.

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Speaker 2: It's an ego defense mechanism that makes us feel good

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Speaker 2: about ourselves at another's expense. In a world of you know,

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Speaker 2: constant social comparison, that little burst of dopamine can be powerful.

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Speaker 2: It can be a motivator, even if we don't want

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Speaker 2: to admit that this is how we feel about it.

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Speaker 2: But of course that's not the whole story. I think

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Speaker 2: the flip side of feeling hateful towards someone, cheering on

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Speaker 2: their failures, gossiping about someone is that well, Firstly, we

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Speaker 2: know it's not a nice way to feel about other people.

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Speaker 2: It can create a pretty like, I don't even know

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Speaker 2: the word, like sludgy, disgusting feeling in our brain that

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't be feeling this way. Secondly, it's bad for

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Speaker 2: our reputation. Thirdly, it can ostracize an individual when maybe

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Speaker 2: they don't deserve to be ostracized. Thirdly, up to third

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Speaker 2: or fourth, it can become a snowball where people start

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Speaker 2: really piling on someone who maybe just made a small

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Speaker 2: mistake and doesn't deserve everyone's suppressed anger to be like

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Speaker 2: thrown directly at them. And finally, you know, research shows

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Speaker 2: that engaging in this kind of malicious feeling or malicious

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Speaker 2: gossip or malicious behavior can actually harm your own wellbeing

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Speaker 2: and it leads to a lot of intense feelings of

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Speaker 2: guilt and shame. That's our empathy kicking in. That's the rational,

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Speaker 2: thoughtful part of our brain that is often silenced by

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Speaker 2: the emotional intensity of hatred switching back on because we

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Speaker 2: all eventually realize, like, hey, if this was me, I

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Speaker 2: would feel devastated to know what those people were saying.

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Speaker 2: I would feel terrible, I would feel awful. I would

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Speaker 2: be distraught at being thought of in that way. It's

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Speaker 2: a temporary high. Hate is a temporary high that comes

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Speaker 2: with a real emotional cost for multiple people. It's also

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Speaker 2: a bit of pill to swallow, but the psychological and

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Speaker 2: physiological cost of hate is primarily held by the hater,

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Speaker 2: not the hated. You know, a moment of hate or

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Speaker 2: gossip it can feel rewarding. The long term reality of it, though,

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Speaker 2: is that you end up carrying chronic anger resentment. You

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Speaker 2: end up seeing people through a lens of what about them?

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Speaker 2: Can I criticize? What about their failings? Will make me

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Speaker 2: feel better about myself? You know, we've all heard of

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Speaker 2: that phrase holding onto anger or hatred is like drinking

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Speaker 2: poison and expecting the other person to die. That idea

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Speaker 2: is true. Carrying resentment harms us physically, it's backed by science.

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Speaker 2: When we are angry, When we are hateful, our body

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Speaker 2: activates its stress response system. When you carry that bitterness

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Speaker 2: for a long time, your body is stuck in a

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Speaker 2: state of low level emergency. Because we know the emotional

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Speaker 2: intensity of hatred will always it will always elicit a

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Speaker 2: deep feeling in us. So if that deep feeling is

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Speaker 2: constantly being you know, allowed through, it's constantly also causing

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Speaker 2: us to pump out stress hormones like cortisol. It's constantly

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Speaker 2: causing our heart rate to be faster. It's constantly calling

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Speaker 2: for tension in our body, which over time does become

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Speaker 2: really toxic for our health. One very famous paper from

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Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties, it was one of the first papers

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Speaker 2: of its time to find that chronic hostility chronic hatred

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Speaker 2: is linked to high blood pressure, a weaker immune system,

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Speaker 2: and an increase in science of inflammation in the body,

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Speaker 2: all of which are known contributors to heart disease and

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Speaker 2: so many other illnesses. That is the silent price you

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Speaker 2: pay for hate. I think this toxicity and hostility can

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Speaker 2: also keep us in a constant state of rumination, a

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Speaker 2: really negative thought loop where we cannot stop looking for

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Speaker 2: bad things about other people. We cannot stop obsessing over

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Speaker 2: other people's downfalls. We cannot stop immediately having the worst

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Speaker 2: thought first when we meet someone new or when we

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Speaker 2: are engaging with other people. That negative thought loop that

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Speaker 2: is a powerful predictor of poor mental health and mental

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Speaker 2: health difficulties like anxiety and depression. It's like you cannot

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Speaker 2: get the song out of your head. You just keep

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Speaker 2: thinking about the way this person annoys you, or the

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Speaker 2: thing they said that one time that really upset you.

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Speaker 2: I've had this recently with a friend, Like a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine was telling me about how someone we both know,

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Speaker 2: who I would have considered a friend, like, had some

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Speaker 2: opinions about this podcast, had some opinions about my work,

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Speaker 2: and has like obviously openly expressed those kind of mean

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Speaker 2: opinions to people close to me. And all weekend I

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Speaker 2: just couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop thinking

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Speaker 2: about how mad I was. Maybe a part of me

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Speaker 2: was trying to get back at her with those thoughts,

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Speaker 2: and I was feeling so hateful and like cruel towards

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Speaker 2: this person. And I was like, I'm the one bearing this,

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Speaker 2: I'm the one who was hurting from this the most

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Speaker 2: right now. But I understand why it's happening. It's basically

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Speaker 2: just your brain trying to make sense of it all.

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Speaker 2: It also makes it impossible to try and find peace,

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Speaker 2: and it can leave you feeling exhausted and even more bitter,

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Speaker 2: you know, the saying, like your brain becomes or your

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Speaker 2: thoughts become what you think about the most. Basically, the

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Speaker 2: more you think about something, the more it begins to

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Speaker 2: dominate over all other thoughts. And this is what's happening here.

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Speaker 2: The more hateful thoughts you have, the more hateful thoughts

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Speaker 2: you have, Like, it just compounds and compounds and compounds. Interestingly,

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Speaker 2: a twenty thirteen study published in the journal Current Psychology

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Speaker 2: looked at a sample of over one hundred and twelve participants,

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Speaker 2: and what they basically found was that although gossiping and

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Speaker 2: being hateful might instantly spike self esteem over the long run,

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Speaker 2: people who gossip people who engage in this actually they

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Speaker 2: felt a lot worse and their well being indicators decreased

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Speaker 2: over time, specifically after sharing this information about someone they knew,

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Speaker 2: Specifically after gossiping and saying things they knew they shouldn't have. Sometimes,

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Speaker 2: you know, we feel like well, if this person said

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Speaker 2: something bad about me, well then surely they deserve for

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Speaker 2: me to say bad things about them, and we feel justified.

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Speaker 2: But the evidence suggests otherwise. Now, of course, we're never

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Speaker 2: going to get on with everybody. Some people also do

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Speaker 2: genuinely do us wrong and don't deserve a place in

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Speaker 2: our lives anymore. But if you don't like someone just because,

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Speaker 2: or if you don't like someone and you've never even

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Speaker 2: met them, or they have done something to hurt you

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Speaker 2: but genuinely apologized and showing remorse, it might be time

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Speaker 2: to maybe start softening and maybe start letting that go

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Speaker 2: rather than drinking the poison. If for no other reason

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Speaker 2: then purely to protect your own peace. We definitely need

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Speaker 2: a better approach to anger, a better approach to hate,

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Speaker 2: and the desire to be a little bit of a hater.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to take a short break, but when

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Speaker 2: we return, I want to just quickly discuss one other

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Speaker 2: very important element of this, which is internet trolls and

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Speaker 2: internet hate, and then give you some kind of tips,

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Speaker 2: some kind of guidance for how to properly integrate the

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Speaker 2: hateful feelings that we all naturally have. So stay with

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Speaker 2: us Okay, we cannot talk about why it feels good

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Speaker 2: to be a hater without talking about Internet trolls and

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Speaker 2: how they make hate their own contagious virus. I've had

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Speaker 2: my run ins with trolls, which people are always really

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Speaker 2: surprised to hear, because I feel like I really do

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Speaker 2: inhabit a really peaceful corner of the Internet, thanks to

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Speaker 2: you guys. But I think as soon as something online

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Speaker 2: reaches an audience of let's say, I don't like fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand people, maybe even less, there's like a level, there

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Speaker 2: is a threshold where there will always be someone who

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Speaker 2: does not like what you have posted, or who does

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Speaker 2: not like or who has no reason to not like

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Speaker 2: what you're doing, but just wants to hate on you.

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Speaker 2: And it's always the same kind of profile or person.

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Speaker 2: It's always a profile that has no face, no name,

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Speaker 2: zero pros, zero followers, and you can just tell you know,

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Speaker 2: this is someone's troll account. This is an account they

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Speaker 2: have deliberately made for this exact purpose to make others

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Speaker 2: feel bad. You know what, I think, I wouldn't mind

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Speaker 2: if someone had an opinion about me and just said

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Speaker 2: it with their chest, and just said it with their

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Speaker 2: main account and came out with it. I think I

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Speaker 2: could at least respect them for that, But there is

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Speaker 2: like a real deep cowardice to these kinds of people,

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Speaker 2: who lean even further into the thrill of being a hater.

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Speaker 2: Because of this anonymity, they never have to put themselves

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Speaker 2: on the line. So to go back a step, I

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Speaker 2: do have to say, an internet troll is not just

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Speaker 2: someone who disagrees with you. I'm super down for that.

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Speaker 2: An internet troll is someone who enters a conversation or

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Speaker 2: someone comment section, or a podcast episode or a video,

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Speaker 2: basically with the only intention being to upset the individual.

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Speaker 2: The aim of their comments is just to get some

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Speaker 2: kind of response or reaction, so they'll often keep going

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Speaker 2: and going until they like kick Gold, or until they

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Speaker 2: hit the pipeline. The comments get nastier, the slander gets

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Speaker 2: even more personal, or with the aim of offending and

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Speaker 2: causing upset, it's something that brings them pleasure. Who are

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Speaker 2: the people behind these comments and behind these online attacks. Well,

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Speaker 2: researchers only a couple of years ago identified that online

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Speaker 2: trolls are not just angry people who are venting. They

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Speaker 2: often possess a very specific cluster of personality traits that

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Speaker 2: cause them to enjoy making other people upset. This is

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Speaker 2: known as the Dark tetrad or the Dark quad of

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Speaker 2: personality traits, and it includes firstly, narcissism. A lot of

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Speaker 2: these online trolls have an inflated sense of self importance

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Speaker 2: and a deep need for admiration, which manifest is a

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Speaker 2: feeling of entitlement to dominate spaces online. It also may

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Speaker 2: be that yes, they have a huge sense of self importance,

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Speaker 2: but in their lives they're really not doing much, and

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Speaker 2: so this is a way for them to feel better

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Speaker 2: about their lack of success or the success they feel

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Speaker 2: entitled to. They also have what we call machiavelianism. This

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Speaker 2: is a cynical disregard for morality and a very manipulative

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Speaker 2: strategic approach to social interactions, often using other people as

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Speaker 2: their own source of amusement. They find it fun, They

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Speaker 2: find it like a game of cat and mouse. They

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Speaker 2: like to play with people in that way. Psychopathy a

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Speaker 2: lack of empathy, reduced capacity for guilt or remorse, and

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Speaker 2: also a tendency towards impulsive and thrill seeking behavior. That's

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Speaker 2: another core personality trait of these individuals. And finally, what

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Speaker 2: we call everyday stay is This is again the pleasure

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00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: derived from inflicting psychological or emotional pain on others. This

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Speaker 2: one trait, more than any other, is most strongly associated

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Speaker 2: with trolling behavior. So just a refresh on those four traits. Narcissism, machiavellianism, psychopathy,

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Speaker 2: and everyday sadism. These are the traits most common in

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Speaker 2: our Internet trolls. A twenty fourteen study published in the

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Speaker 2: Journal of Personality and Individual Differences actually looked at twelve

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Speaker 2: thousand people and it looked into both their Internet commenting

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00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: behavior as well as asking them to complete a number

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Speaker 2: of personality tests to measure elements of this dark tet

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Speaker 2: trad or dark quad. Unsurprisingly, the researchers found that those

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Speaker 2: who said that trolling was their favorite online activity also

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Speaker 2: scored the highest in the dark tech trad personality traits.

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Speaker 2: The other thing about this study is that the authors

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Speaker 2: even go as far as to that these trolls see

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00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: the Internet as almost like a playground for them. They

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00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: actually enjoy this kind of behavior. It is playful. It

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00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: is pleasurable to taunt other people and to hate on

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00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: them with the intention of getting a reaction. The online

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00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: environment in online spaces that a lot of us find

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00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: ourselves in currently are actually the perfect breeding ground for

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00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: this type of hate thanks to two key psychological factors.

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Speaker 2: There is a reason why, you know, you walk along

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Speaker 2: on the street and like people aren't coming up to

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Speaker 2: you and being like I think this about you or

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00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: I'm gonna just insult you. But then when you go

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00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: online there are like thousands and thousands, maybe even millions

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Speaker 2: of people operating this way. Firstly, it's because yes, they

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Speaker 2: might be narcissists, they might be you know, sadists. They're

431
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 2: also cowards and they also don't have the freaking guts

432
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: to say it. But secondly, again it is that a

433
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: non the shield of a username or an avatar allows

434
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: people to act without fear of real world consequences and

435
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 2: social retribution. You can say something awful to someone and

436
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: you will never have to face them. You will likely

437
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: never meet them, you will never have to see the consequence.

438
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: You will never have to see their tears, their friends,

439
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: their family trying to comfort them. That makes it a

440
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: lot easier for people to do and not feel guilty about.

441
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: There's also this theory that it's actually the fact or

442
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: the lack of eye contact specifically that causes this. The

443
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: absence of this real time social feedback where you can

444
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: see the other person's eyes, you have this window into

445
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: their soul. You can see them suffer, and you are

446
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: meant to feel something in response. The fact that there

447
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: isn't that in these online spaces makes what you're doing

448
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: feel less real and makes it easier for you to do.

449
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: These factors have all combined to create the perfect environment

450
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: for the uninhibited act of expressed hate. There it is,

451
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: it's like all this this pent up emotion that we

452
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 2: all have. The pleasure that we all, you know, somewhat

453
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: derive from hating on other people or feeling better because

454
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: of someone else's downfall, which you know, we could typically

455
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 2: manage it a safe and healthy and sustainable way and

456
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: process accurately, you know, or you could just go online

457
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: and just be a hater, which one takes less work. Also,

458
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: it's worth saying, you know the nature of modern day

459
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: social media algorithms are designed to amplify extreme, more emotionally

460
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: charged content, and that creates these echo chambers where we

461
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: are exposed to more hate and less nuanced Maybe you

462
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: have noticed this, I definitely have, especially on Instagram, where

463
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: there could be hundreds of positive comments on a reel

464
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: or on a video or on an image. You go

465
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: to the comment section, though, what's always at the top.

466
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 2: If there is hate comment, if there is a mean comment,

467
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: it's always at the very top of that comment section,

468
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: even if it has less likes, even if it has

469
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: less engagement. The algorithm prioritize, prioritizes this kind of intensity

470
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: and vitrol and this emotional reaction that it knows is

471
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: going to pull people in. This constant exposure normalizes this

472
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: being a normal response to other people because we always

473
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: see it, because it's always there, because it's always the

474
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: top comment. It normalizes that this is just like an

475
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: everyday reaction that you are allowed to have about someone

476
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: else's behavior, and it is not so Trolling is one element.

477
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: But you might be thinking, listen, I have a private account,

478
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: I'm not in the public eye. I don't really need

479
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: to think about trolls. That is totally true. You might

480
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: not have to worry about strangers on the Internet. But

481
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: something that a lot of people talk about is the

482
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: fact that their biggest critics are sometimes the people that

483
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: they are actually closest to in their lives. So why

484
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: are some of our biggest haters Maybe not the people online,

485
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: but our closest friends, our family members, even our partners

486
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: in some extreme cases. The core reason for this is

487
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: rooted in a fundamental psychological principle social comparison. Sure, we

488
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: can compare ourselves to strangers on the other side of

489
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: the world, it's pretty easy to do so. But what

490
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: is an even easier and closer source of comparison Those

491
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: in our immediate social circle, our best friend, our friendship group,

492
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: our peers, our siblings. These are the people whose lives

493
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: are most relevant to our own sense of self worth.

494
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: When you achieve some kind of personal success, maybe it's

495
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: a promotion, or you've just got engaged, or a huge

496
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: personal milestone, and a friend or family member responds with

497
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: like a subtle, backhanded comment or jealousy or even outright hatred,

498
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: it often takes us by surprise when like, wait, aren't

499
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: you the one who's meant to be the happiest for me?

500
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: But often this is a reflection of their own deep

501
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: seated insecurity and envy. Your success has inadvertently highlighted something

502
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: they feel they lack. They interpret your success and your

503
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: achievements as they're downfall, not realizing that obviously there is

504
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: room for everyone, and the hate they direct at you

505
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: is often a subconscious attempt to restore their own self

506
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: esteem by tearing yours down, which is bizarre, it's wild.

507
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: I don't understand why it happens. I don't think it

508
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: necessarily makes a lot of sense, but it is something

509
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: that people talk about time and time again. The best

510
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: friend who's just like, oh, a little bit too gleeful

511
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: when something goes wrong in your life, or the friend

512
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: who is never really that happy for you when something

513
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: goes well. Those closest to us often have the deepest

514
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: capacity for hate, not necessarily because their love was fake,

515
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: but because love and hate draw from the same well

516
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: of intimacy. It's particularly painful because it's coming from someone

517
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: who does know you, who knows your vulnerabilities, who knows

518
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: what you really are scared of, who knows your fears,

519
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: and their words, their backhand compliments, you know that can

520
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: hit with a precision that a stranger, like a stranger

521
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: online never could, And often we can be like, oh,

522
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: you get a troll comment, or someone like says something

523
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: rude to you like on the internet, you can be like, well,

524
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: this person doesn't know me, They're not important in my life.

525
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: The stakes are entirely different when it's someone who literally

526
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: you would trust with your life, who you would trust

527
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: with so much of yourself. A lot of these personal grievances,

528
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: again stem from insecurity and are a deep act of projection.

529
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of us have heard of

530
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: the term projection before. It's a rather amorphous psychological term

531
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: that I think just gets thrown around, But it basically

532
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: means that someone holds a mirror up to us and

533
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: what we see in that reflection. What we see in

534
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: that mirror we don't like, and so instead of realizing

535
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: that we don't like it because it's something that we

536
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: don't like about ourselves and that we are critical of

537
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: ourselves about, we target the reflection of that in someone else.

538
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: So basically it means that the things you hate the

539
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: most about other people are the things that you see

540
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: as being most true about your own character. There are

541
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: so many studies too many to count, that reference this,

542
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: But basically, again, when we don't feel good, sometimes it

543
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: is easier to bring others down than it is to

544
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: acknowledge that we don't really like ourselves right now. A

545
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: lot of hate it does stem from our own state

546
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: of psychological wellbeing. In fact, I think every single example

547
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: that we have given in this episode is evidence of that.

548
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: Is evidence of the fact that in order to gossip,

549
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: in order to troll someone, in order to try and

550
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: tear someone down, in order to cheer on as someone's

551
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: downfalls imminent, there has to be something about your own

552
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: life that doesn't feel amazing at that point. You know

553
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 2: someone whose life is full of love, someone who has

554
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: confidence in their life, someone who has, you know, something

555
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: that they are invested in in their life. They don't

556
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: have the time and the energy to be focused on

557
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: what's going on beyond them or beyond their closest circle.

558
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: They don't have time to be trolling the internet looking

559
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: for someone to make themselves feel better by making someone

560
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 2: else feel worse. So it is a real deep truth

561
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: about our desire to hate. Hatred also is really rooted

562
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: in boredom, idleness, and frustration by our own life circumstances.

563
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: When we talk about confronting hate in ourselves and confronting

564
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: this negative feeling or dealing with it from other people

565
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: and trying to integrate that and understand why someone doesn't

566
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 2: like us. It's never really about the person receiving the hate.

567
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: They are just a conduit for something much larger. They

568
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 2: are just a proxy, And I think that is important

569
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: to recognize and realize and remember whatever side of the

570
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: equation you are on, it's not really about them, is it?

571
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: So?

572
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 2: On that note, if hate is so damaging to us,

573
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: if it stems from insecurity in such a deep, sometimes

574
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 2: ugly way, how do we break free from its cycle,

575
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: both in ourselves and in our interactions with others. Well,

576
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about all of that and more

577
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: after this shortbreak. Stay with us. As much as I've

578
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: tried to dive into the humanness and the universality of

579
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: sometimes being a hater, how it sometimes does feel good,

580
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: how a lot of us do it over time. It

581
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: is not something to be celebrated, and it does not

582
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: make us feel good to be someone who only has

583
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: bad things to say about other people. And we do

584
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: have to call ourselves out on it for a number

585
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: of reasons. Firstly, so that our brain doesn't become this

586
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: negativity machine. Secondly, so we are actually nice to be around. Thirdly,

587
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: for just like the kindness and grace that we want

588
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: to show other people that we would expect in their circumstances.

589
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 2: We want to do onto others as we would want

590
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: done onto ourselves, and addressing our relationship with the hate

591
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: within us is a really important part of that and

592
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: is a really important way that we're going to do that.

593
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: So the first step is really and I know I

594
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: say this every single time, but it is self awareness.

595
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: The fact that you are listening to this episode and

596
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: you may have nodded your head along to a couple

597
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: of things, and may have seen yourself in some of

598
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: these descriptions, whether you want to acknowledge it or not,

599
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 2: I actually think that's an amazing thing. And I think

600
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: that you like. Being able to see the ugliness in

601
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: yourself is one of the most profound forms of self awareness,

602
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: even if it feels kind of uncomfortable. Someone who was

603
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: truly a hateful, despicable person, someone who was truly a

604
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: sadist or a psychopath or Machiavelian does not have the

605
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: capacity to do that. So the fact that you do

606
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: shows that you're not like those people who find the

607
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: routine of hate pleasurable. So now that you've acknowledged it.

608
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: I think the next step is that when you feel

609
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: the impulse to hate, to gossip, to lash out, just

610
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: ask yourself pause, like, what are you really feeling right now?

611
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: What is the root of this feeling? Is it anger?

612
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: Is it jealousy? Is it a lack of control? Is

613
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: it powerlessness? Is it a fear of not being good enough? Remember,

614
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: even if you are in the middle of saying something mean,

615
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: right in the middle of writing a comment, right in

616
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 2: the middle of hate, watching something on TikTok or wherever,

617
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: whatever you're doing, you can always just stop. Just because

618
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: you have started an action doesn't mean that you are

619
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: now fully committed to finishing it. You can just stop.

620
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: You can always just course correct and literally say to

621
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: the other person or say to yourself like, actually, I'm sorry,

622
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: I actually don't want to do this. I don't want

623
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: to say that, I don't want to engage in this,

624
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to feel this way. I'm gonna stop,

625
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hit pause. I'm gonna handle this differently. Sorry

626
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: about that. A big root cause of our hate is

627
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: often actually not pure dislike It is often jealousy, in

628
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: securing in comparison, So in that way acknowledging That also

629
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: means that you can then begin to have a different

630
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: relationship with envy, and you can turn it into a

631
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: compass rather than something that might allow you to hate

632
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: on someone and give you that little spike of dopamine,

633
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: but in the long term really actually harms you when

634
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 2: you feel that pang of envy or frustration at someone

635
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: else's achievement or milestone, Instead of letting it fester and

636
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: instead of following the instinct to tear them down, literally

637
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: say to yourself, Okay, what about the situation do I

638
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 2: actually want? If you are responding to their circumstances with

639
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,439
Speaker 2: such a level of intensity, that means that you must

640
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 2: really be invested in what they're doing, and you must

641
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: really care about what they're doing, and therefore a part

642
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: of you probably wants it for yourself. So you can

643
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 2: use the intensity of this feeling as information A little mantra.

644
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: I like to say, if I'm ever recognizing that feeling

645
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: coming up is love that for them, want that for me?

646
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: The first half of that mantra really recognizes, you know,

647
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 2: the positivity and their experience. I love that for them.

648
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: That looks great. I think that that you know European

649
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: trip looks delightful. I think that their recent success is

650
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: incredible and they really deserve that. I want that for

651
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: me and please for them. And then that envy that

652
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: I would normally feel is actually being redirected into a

653
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: source of inspiration, into a tool for self improvement, into motivation. Again,

654
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you didn't care,

655
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be hating on them. You literally cannot hate

656
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: someone you don't care about. So engaging in this form

657
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: of cognitive reappraisal, where you consciously change how you interpret

658
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: a negative emotion and you make it productive, is really

659
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: going to help you not just ruminate on what you're

660
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: missing in your own life and not in some way

661
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: blame them for what you're missing, but turn that into

662
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: to something you can do about it. I also think

663
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: if you recognize that a lot of hatred in comparison

664
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: is fueled by being on perhaps social media, and the

665
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: comparison that can fuel and how easy it is to

666
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: just jump on the bandwagon of everyone currently hating on someone,

667
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: you've got to recognize, like social media isn't real, you

668
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: can also step away from it and your life will

669
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: not be over I think we have this real dependency

670
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 2: on social media now for all of our social needs

671
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: and all of our informational needs as well. Like it's

672
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: how we feel like we stay in the loop. It's

673
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 2: how we feel like we connect with our friends, it's

674
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: how we have those like incidental social interactions with people online.

675
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: It's how we keep people in the loop. There are

676
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: heaps of other ways to actually do all of those

677
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: things without playing into an algorithm that is quite hateful.

678
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: And even if that doesn't mean completely abstaining from social media,

679
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: it might mean seeing something that immediately sparks your desire

680
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: to hate and engaging with it in a way that

681
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: doesn't make it your problem. So on following blocking muting people,

682
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: I did a lot of that that. I did a

683
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: lot of that this week where I was just like,

684
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 2: hah ha, this is really making me feel really terrible,

685
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: and it's really like playing into my desire and feeling

686
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: my desire to like feel hateful and spiteful. And the

687
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: thing is is that that emotion may be natural, it's

688
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: also my responsibility and how I engage with that is

689
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: my responsibility. Someone's allowed to have their opinion or express

690
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: their thought or talk about whatever it is they want

691
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: to talk about and it being out of my business,

692
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: I'm allowed to disengage if it is possible for me,

693
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: and if the possibility is there, I should take it.

694
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: I will say. I said this the other day to someone,

695
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: to one of my friends. I was like, curation of

696
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: your social media is actually a form of self care.

697
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: Like unfollowing and blocking people or just pressing not interested

698
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: is a form of self care, and we should do

699
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: more of it. I think it's also really important to

700
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: flip this around and learn how we can respond to

701
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: hateful people. Unfortunately, it's something most of us will be

702
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: on the receiving end of at some point in our lives,

703
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: either in person or online. And there are some people

704
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: who just don't want to do anything about their hateful feelings.

705
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: We're obviously sitting here and we're talking about ways to

706
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: like psychologically manage how we act on hate. Some people

707
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: literally just don't care, and it feels so good to

708
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: them that they can keep writing the high with never experiencing.

709
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: Maybe the psychological and emotional came down of this negativity.

710
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: So how do you respond to a hater in a

711
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: way that protects your own peace, in a way that

712
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: doesn't make you turn into them. It's important to remember

713
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: that anytime you're engaging with someone who wants to hate

714
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: on you, whether it's a troll, whether it's you know,

715
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: a so called friend, this is not about winning. This

716
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: is not like you will never win. You're never going

717
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: to win against this kind of individual. It's about reclaiming

718
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: your own emotional energy, protecting your own energy, and setting

719
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 2: a more firm boundary. You know, if hatred comes online,

720
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 2: specifically with trolls like, they do not care about winning,

721
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: They do not care about presenting a solid argument, They

722
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: do not care about scoring points. The only thing they

723
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: are looking for is it a reaction. We know that

724
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: from all of these psychology studies, right, So, actually they

725
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 2: want you to engage with them. That's why they're being

726
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: so inflammatory. The best thing you can do is to

727
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: just not the best thing you can do is to

728
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: just be like cool, I see your comment blocked. And

729
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: if everyone did that, it would be like suffocating the

730
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: hate in them because they wouldn't get the rise out

731
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: of people. That creates like the satisfy action loop for them,

732
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: and that keeps them engaging in this and doing this.

733
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: By refusing to participate, you take away their power and

734
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 2: gosh do I know how hard it is, but something

735
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: that I choose to do instead because I understand the

736
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: need to react to someone being hateful or spiteful. Online

737
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: is where I see negativity. I leave positivity. If I

738
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: see like a girl and like dancing in every single

739
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 2: comment is like a hate comment, I'm leaving a positive one.

740
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: And that's how I'm gonna choose to engage. I'm not

741
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 2: going to start replying to people and trying to fight back.

742
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: I know it's not gonna work. I'm just gonna match

743
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 2: their energy with something like egregiously positive. Same with sometimes

744
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: when I get troll comments on my own posts, I

745
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: love to call trolls like honey and sweetcakes and baby

746
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 2: cakes and like sweet honey Bee or like lovely boy,

747
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: or I love to like give them pet names and

748
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: like be so like sickly sweet, dripping with kindness towards

749
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: them that like they know they cannot get a rise

750
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 2: out of me I And it works. It does work

751
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: in person as well. You obviously can't block someone, you

752
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: can't be like I want to mute this conversation goodbye.

753
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: But you can create an emotional distance between you and

754
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: what they're saying by simply just responding in like the

755
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: most bland way possible, just being like, that's an interesting perspective,

756
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: or I'm sorry you feel that way, like they're a child.

757
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: Treat them like they're a child, they will lose interest.

758
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: And if they keep saying stuff just being like, I'm

759
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 2: really sorry you feel that way, I'm really sorry you

760
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 2: feel that way, and you'll slowly say that like they're

761
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: the ones who start to realize the ridiculousness of what

762
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: they're saying, and that they're the ones who are pushing

763
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: a conversation that you obviously don't want to have, and

764
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: it's like they look ridiculous. Your reaction is so powerful

765
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: when it is neutral, because you're refusing to participate in

766
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: the emotional side of this game, and so when doing so,

767
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: you are protecting your own peace. Also, sometimes you just

768
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 2: need to take a deep breath and you just need

769
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: to again remind yourself, this has nothing to do with me.

770
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 2: Anybody here could be the target of this. They're just

771
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: looking for someone to pile their shit onto. They're just

772
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: looking for someone to be like, to get the pleasure

773
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: that they want out of this hateful feeling. It doesn't

774
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: have to be you. You don't have to give them

775
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: the space, you don't have to give them the time.

776
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: The worst thing that can happen in this situation is

777
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: that you fall to their level. And I've done this,

778
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: I've seen it happen so many times. But it's like

779
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: the moment you get in the mud and start rolling

780
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 2: around with them, you are just one of these people.

781
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: And again, that's a conscious decision. You can choose not

782
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: to make by processing your own dislike for other people,

783
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: or your own insecurity or your own grievances in a

784
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: healthy way, by knowing that there's no such thing as

785
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: a wrong emotion, but there is a better reaction, and

786
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 2: you're gonna choose to take the better path. That's a

787
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: long freaking journey, and I again, I think, especially right now,

788
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: it's the harder choice. It is the much harder choice

789
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: to go high. It will always be more rewarding and

790
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: it will always be more importantly less emotionally exhausting. So

791
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 2: with that in mind, I'm going to wrap up the episode.

792
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: I hope that you learn a little bit more about

793
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 2: the psychology behind being a hater, behind why we love

794
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: to hate, behind you know, gossiping and cancel culture, and

795
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 2: why we secretly can't wait for a celebrities downfall. I

796
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: feel like I had a bit of a mixed message

797
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: throughout this episode, but what I really want to say

798
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: is this is like a completely normal and biological, psycho

799
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 2: logical part of our behavior. But the more we learn

800
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: about it, the more I think that we can make

801
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: it more civilized and just appreciate it on like a

802
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: more nuanced level, rather than just being like monkeys pushing

803
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 2: a hateful button and being like, yes, this makes me

804
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 2: feel good, This makes me feel good, Like I'm just

805
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 2: gonna tear other people down. You don't have to do that.

806
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: There are other choices and there are other ways to

807
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: approach hate, especially in modern day society where it seems

808
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: that like everyone is everyone just wants public outrage, Everyone

809
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: just wants to be the meanest, cruelest person in the

810
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: comment section so they get the most engagement. Like, Nah,

811
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: we don't have to do that. That's we don't actually

812
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: have to be a part of that. We can handle

813
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: that in a better way. So I hope that is

814
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: what you have learned or taken away from this episode.

815
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 2: If you have made it this far, I've been really

816
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 2: enjoying song recommendations recently. Leave your most like angry song

817
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: like the song you get you let all your rage

818
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: on your hate and your spy out to. In the

819
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: comments below. You know the song that I'm gonna recommend,

820
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: which is not one that I normally get my anger

821
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: and spy out to, but which I love as part

822
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: of this like hate anger cycle is I'm Not Angry

823
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: Anymore by Paramore, and I love listening to that song

824
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: when I feel like a lot of rage coming into

825
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: my body of like the higher path, the better path.

826
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: So song recommendation to end the episode. I want to

827
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 2: thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode.

828
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: She is amazing. She is incredible. We couldn't do it

829
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: without her. Make sure that you are following us on

830
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology Podcast if you want to provide

831
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: an episode suggestion, if you want to contribute to a

832
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: future episode, if you have further thoughts on online hate

833
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 2: and why we love being a hater, I would love

834
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: to hear from you, and I'd love to hear those thoughts.

835
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: Make sure as well that you are following wherever you

836
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: are on Spotify, Apple Podcast, the iHeartRadio app. I don't

837
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: know where you're listening from, but I would love if

838
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: you stuck around for a little bit longer, so hint follow,

839
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: make sure to give us a five star review, and

840
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 2: until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself,

841
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: handle that hate with care, and we will talk very

842
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: very soon.