1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: Radio news. In the past, we could rely upon you know, 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 2: simple limbic system rewards in order to procreate it. But 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: once you have both control and you know, abortions and whatnot, 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: now you can still satisfied limbic instinct, but not approcreate. 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 3: Well you are. 7 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 4: Muski is now the richest person on the planet. 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 5: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 5: controlled by one man. 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 4: Well, he's a legitimate, super genius and legitimate. 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 5: He says, He's always voted for Democrats, but this year 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 5: it will be different. 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 6: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 6: on him. 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 4: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: Anything he does is fascinating. 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 5: Welcome to Elon Ang, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 5: It's June twenty fifth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. Kids 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 5: can't live with them, can't live without them, can't stop 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 5: making them. It has been widely reported that Elon has 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 5: over ten children, but thanks to a new story by 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 5: Bloomberg's own Sophie Alexander and Dana Hall, we know that 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 5: Elon has at least twelve, including three kids with his employee, 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 5: Chevon Zillis of Neuralink, but his own procreation is part 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 5: of a larger story of Elon infertility. We'll get into 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 5: all of that, and also why Linda Yakarino is feeling 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 5: the heat. X has been a money loser for the 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 5: last couple of years, and now we have an executive 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 5: shake up at the platform. To discuss the shakeup at X, 31 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 5: we're joined by Kurt Wagner, tech reporter for us here 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 5: at Bloomberg and a for I'm high school football star. 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 6: Hello Kurt, Hey, how you doing? 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 5: And Max Chapkin, intrepid Bloomberg BusinessWeek reporter. 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 4: I was the captain of my track team. 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 5: Okay, congratulations Mack, A captain, said one of seven? Okay, 37 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 5: Kurt So. Over at X, a fellow by the name 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 5: of Joe Benneroche is out. Who is he and what 39 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 5: does his dismissal there tell us? 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: So? 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 6: Joe Benneroche was essentially Linda Yakrino's right hand man. He 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 6: came over with her from NBC. I think his official 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 6: title was Head of Business Operations, but he was also 44 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 6: the only PR or comms person at the company. So 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 6: anytime you needed comment from X or you needed to, 46 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 6: you know, reach out about a story or working on 47 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 6: Joe was sort of the guy that you went to, 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 6: and he was very, very close to Linda. As far 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 6: as I could tell, he was fiercely loyal to her. 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 6: He traveled anywhere she went. When she she testified before Congress, 51 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 6: Joe was sitting literally right behind her in the room there. 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 6: So he was considered the gatekeeper to Linda, and so 53 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 6: when he was pretty unexpectedly fired, it sounds like, according 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 6: to reports a few weeks ago, it was pretty shocking 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 6: because it sort of suggested, well, wait a minute, there's 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 6: something going on here. There's a problem here that isn't 57 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 6: evident necessarily from the outside, but clearly if she's getting 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 6: rid of this person who's sort of been by her 59 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 6: side for that first year on the job, that's somewhat 60 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 6: telling me. 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 5: No way, mccurr. I mean that there's a problem there 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 5: at X. We know there's a problem there at X. 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 5: But when you say there's a problem there, as in 64 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 5: the losses and the problems are piling up so much 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 5: that Linda herself is feeling the heat from Elon. 66 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 6: I think that's right. Yeah. I mean because obviously when 67 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 6: you see her speak publicly, the public perception is everything 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 6: is great, business is growing, we're winning back advertisers like, 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 6: isn't aren't we doing all these things that you want 70 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 6: us to do that that you being the advertising community 71 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 6: and the user community want us to do. So Again, 72 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 6: the outward perception is that there are no issues where 73 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 6: the business is on the mend. But this move here, 74 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 6: I think told a different story to a lot of 75 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 6: people who have who have been watching the company. 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 4: Being Elon Musk's PR guy is not an easy job. 77 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 4: It's like it's like being Dale Earnhardt's driver, you know, 78 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 4: Steve Jobs interior designer. Like there's no doubt who the 79 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 4: actual head of communications is. It's Elon Musk and so 80 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: Joe Benneroch, you know, he was the guy. The way 81 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 4: I think of him is the guy who turned off 82 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 4: the poop emoji. 83 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 5: Was the poop emoji totally gone? 84 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, poop Emog's gone now. If you ask for comments 85 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 4: sometimes well for a while, anyway you did, there was 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 4: this guy Joe who would, who would, who would do 87 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 4: his best? 88 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 5: And you got his answers are better than the poop emoji. 89 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 4: You just got the sense that it's a no win 90 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: situation because Elon Musk is sort of on the record saying, 91 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: you know, I hate PR. PR is worthless. Meanwhile, he's 92 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 4: very very very sensitive to public perceptions, very attuned to 93 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 4: what you know, the conversation is around him, And so 94 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 4: if you're his PR person, I don't know. I think 95 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 4: it's it's kind of hopeless. You never get credit for 96 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 4: anything good, and you're you're blamed for everything bad. And 97 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 4: as Dana can attest, there is a long, long, long 98 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 4: line of Tesla former Tesla PR people who have sort 99 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 4: of been churned through that place for I think similar reasons. 100 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 6: Well, and if I could just add, I mean, he 101 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 6: took over a team so Twitter one point zero had 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 6: almost one hundred PR people when Elon got there, so 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 6: globally right, I mean, you think about it, sounds crazy. 104 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 6: It probably was too big of a team for company 105 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 6: that size, but that just shows you how much they 106 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 6: were in the news. And now Joe was doing this 107 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 6: by himself, you know what I mean. So it's it 108 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 6: to Max's point, it was a terrible job. In my opinion, 109 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 6: it sounds really tough. 110 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 4: So we should just say that the reason that Joe 111 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 4: Benneroch was fired. According to the FT, had to do 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 4: with X's management and his management. Again, this is according 113 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 4: to their sources. Of the new porn policy. Basically, there 114 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 4: was a word change in X's terms of service and 115 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 4: supposedly he handled it poorly. 116 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 5: You know, Max, I feel like we baited them into 117 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 5: that policy change. We had just done an entire episode 118 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 5: about porn just a few days earlier. 119 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 4: They basically explicitly put adult content in their terms of service, 120 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 4: and according to reporting from the FT, she blamed him 121 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: for failing to kind of smooth things over with advertisers, 122 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 4: give them a heads up, which sort of makes sense. 123 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 4: On the other hand, with a lot of these things, 124 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 4: I'm not sure they are pr guy problems. It seems 125 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 4: more like X problems. 126 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 6: Well, and I think the issue is that the understanding 127 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 6: was that the policy. While the language changed, the actual 128 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 6: enforcement didn't change. It's not as if they were suddenly 129 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 6: saying these things are allowed and they weren't before. It 130 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 6: was basically, you know, it's business as usual, but we're 131 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 6: tweaking the language here. But it still got it covered 132 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 6: as if it was this brand new thing. So now 133 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 6: you had all these new headlines coming out saying, you know, 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 6: X allows porn or X and it's just like a 135 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 6: terrible look, even though they didn't actually change the policy. 136 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 6: And so I think that was, you know, to Max's point, 137 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 6: the f he was saying, Joe was sort of the 138 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 6: scapegoat here. 139 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 5: Right, the fall guy for the black guy the company 140 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 5: took there. Now, I saw as well that Elon at 141 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 5: some level is trying to court advertisers himself, again, saying 142 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 5: last week that when he told them to go fuck themselves, 143 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 5: he actually didn't mean go which, by the way, I'll 144 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 5: say to the two of you guys, if and when 145 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 5: I ever tell you guys to go for yourself, I'm 146 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 5: gonna mean it. I think I'm not taking it back, David. 147 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 4: I think what he actually said is when I said 148 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: go fund yourselves, what I meant is only some of 149 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 4: you should go ford yourself. 150 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 5: Kurt, I don't know. Does this I mean? Is that 151 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 5: the kind of plea that gets him anywhere with the 152 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 5: well heeled advertisers of America? 153 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 6: Oh boy? Maybe when you're in the south of France 154 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 6: at can that which is. 155 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 5: Where he which is where he made these comments he was. 156 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, which is where he was as someone who's been 157 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 6: to that festival a handful of times in the past. 158 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 6: There's a lot of schmooz in that goes on, a 159 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 6: lot of you know, parties and drinking and wheeling and 160 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 6: dealing and things like that. So maybe he was able 161 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 6: to do more damage control behind the scenes than we're 162 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 6: aware of. But I think what he says on stage 163 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 6: is sort of on repeat now. I think it's like 164 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 6: he says a lot of the same stuff. And I 165 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 6: think if you're an advertiser, you've probably made up your 166 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 6: mind one way or the other. Either you're okay with 167 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 6: dealing with the uncertainty of an Elon Musk at the Helm, 168 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 6: or it's not worth the risk and you've moved on. 169 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 6: And so it's hard for me to imagine that he's 170 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 6: out here changing hearts and minds by doing a twenty 171 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 6: minute stage interview. 172 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 5: All right, listen, Kurt, thanks for joining us. We'll have 173 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 5: you on again soon always. 174 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 6: Thanks guys. 175 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 5: Okay, we're now going to welcome in Dana Hall or 176 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 5: Elon Musk Report or Extraordinary. Hello Dana, Hello, Hello, and 177 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 5: Sophie Alexander Report here for us as well. Bloomberg News 178 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 5: Hello Sophie. Hello, So you do add a great piece 179 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 5: about Musk's obsession with babies and staving off population decline. 180 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 5: Everyone should go read it. Lots of detailing insight I 181 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 5: hadn't seen before in the subject, Sophie. Let's start with 182 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 5: the basics, though, for the uninitiated, the headline of your 183 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 5: story is Elon wants you to have more babies. 184 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: Why well, Elon thinks that the issue that this planet 185 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: is facing is population collapse. He thinks global warming is 186 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: lower on the list of concerns, things like nuclear war 187 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: lower on the list of concerns. All of that is below, 188 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, people not having enough children. And so basically 189 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: he's right that fertility is declining around the world, but 190 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: our population is not declining. Still, we are still a 191 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: growing population, so it becomes complicated. But essentially Elon is 192 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: worried that, especially rich white countries, are not having enough babies. 193 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 5: We actually have an audio clip of him expressing some 194 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 5: of those concerns. Let's listen to it. 195 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: If we don't make enough people to at least sustain 196 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: our numbers, perhaps increase a little bit, then civilization is 197 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: going to crumble. Just the old question like will civilization 198 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: and with a bang or a whimper. 199 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 5: Okay, continue on this line of thinking here from him? 200 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 5: If the population are we talking about the population across 201 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 5: the globe or we talking about the population of specific 202 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 5: countries that like the United States, where he's worried about 203 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 5: a possible decline in. 204 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: Population, Well, it's really I mean, I think that's the 205 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: question that a lot of you know, experts in the 206 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: population field have for him, because when they are looking 207 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: at the numbers, this is quote, not a story of decline. 208 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: It's what someone from the UN's Population division told me. 209 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, it seems like Elon is really focused 210 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: on these play is where the population is slowly declining 211 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: because fertility rates are declining. But in the US that's 212 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: still not really the story. Because of immigration, our population 213 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: has remained steady, even growing thanks to immigrants moving here, 214 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: even as our birth rates do decline. And the same 215 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: is true of Canada and places like that. It's a 216 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: different story when you look at Japan or Korea, and 217 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are pro natalists and obsessed 218 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: with population collaps like Elon is will immediately jump to Korea, 219 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: and you know, places like Italy as well. They'll say, 220 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, in five hundred years, there's not going to 221 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: be Koreans, There's not going to be Italians. Italy is 222 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: just going to be one big empty museum. 223 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 5: So on that point, though, Dana, if you are the US, Canada, Japan, Korea, 224 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 5: why not indeed simply address the problem by opening your 225 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 5: border a bit more so ife you were saying, the 226 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 5: US and Canada certainly do to extend places like Japan 227 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 5: and Korea less. Oh, I don't know. There are certainly 228 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 5: plenty of people across the world who would be up 229 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 5: for moving to these countries. 230 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I mean, I think immigration is one aspect 231 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 3: of birth rates. But I mean, if you talk to demographers, 232 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: there are a lot of reasons why fertility is on 233 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: the decline in you know, western industrialized nations and even 234 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: in countries like India as well. Women are delaying childbirth, 235 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 3: they are more educated. Having a kid is incredibly expensive, 236 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: The cost of childcare is prohibitive. I mean, there are 237 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: all kinds of reasons why people are not having kids, 238 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: like a lot of and women like they want to 239 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 3: be in the workforce and so. And if the cost 240 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 3: of childcare exceeds a mortgage or exceed your rent, you're 241 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: gonna think twice about having, you know, three kids when 242 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 3: maybe you can barely afford two. And so there are 243 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: a number of reasons why fertility is on the decline 244 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 3: in many countries. And I just think it's fascinating that 245 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 3: Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, has kind 246 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 3: of made this his big policy issue. I mean, he 247 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: talks about population collapse all the time and has for years. 248 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: What Sophie and I really dug into and discovered is that, 249 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: like he's not just talking about it, he is putting 250 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: it in practice with his own DNA. I mean, the 251 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: man has at least twelve children that we know of. 252 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 5: During the reporting of the story, you uncovered that there 253 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 5: is a child number twelve. Correct, yes, and so tell 254 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 5: us a little bit about tell us about the child 255 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 5: and how you guys wound up stumbling upon that. 256 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 3: To be clear, you know, Musk has many children, and 257 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 3: when we talk about the numbers, he fathered six with 258 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: his first wife, Justine. The eldest died as an infant. 259 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 3: That he had five others with Justine. He has three 260 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: children with Grimes. He had twins with Chavon Zillis, who 261 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 3: was an executive at Neuralink. We learned all about that 262 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: in the Walter Isaacson book. And then in kind of 263 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: reporting this story, like a lot of people said to 264 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 3: me over and over again, oh, well, you know he 265 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: is a lot more than eleven kids, and I was like, well, no, 266 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: I didn't know that, Like what exactly did you mean? 267 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 3: And you know, the sourcing on this is is very complex, 268 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 3: but ultimately we were able to confirm that, yes, he 269 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: did have a third child with Chavn And that's an 270 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 3: issue because she is or was an executive at Neuralink, 271 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: one of his companies. So you know, just the optics 272 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: of that for a typical CEO have, you know, raising 273 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 3: kids with someone who's basically their employee. It is like 274 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: a whole separate issue. 275 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 5: Now, this topic of him sort of bringing Max these 276 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 5: pro natalism views into the workplace, there been reports of 277 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 5: late that that is increasingly getting him in trouble. 278 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of needless to say, 279 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 4: when you're fathering children with employees, there are a lot 280 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 4: of potential hr issues there. In addition to this this 281 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 4: new baby with you know, someone who's kind of in 282 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 4: his inner circle in his businesses. Wall Street Journal had 283 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 4: reported in this larger piece, essentially accusing him of having 284 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 4: sexually harasses employees, of him attempting to get another employee 285 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 4: to have one of his babies. And again, I mean, 286 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 4: this is an un this is an unconventional version of 287 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 4: kind of a difficult work environment. But you can you 288 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: could easily see how this would be super uncomfortable if 289 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: you are a woman who were working for Elon Musk 290 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 4: or really just anyone. The other thing is this is 291 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 4: I feel like we need a sound that we play 292 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 4: on this podcast when we discover a new baby, like 293 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 4: a like a clackson or whatever, because you know, we're 294 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 4: up to twelve now, and you know, you never know 295 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 4: there could be more. 296 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 5: When the podcast started, they were like, uh, there were 297 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 5: like just four. Actually just last month, Elon talked a 298 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 5: bit at a conference about how strangers or are just 299 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 5: offering him babies. Let's listen. Yeah, I don't know if 300 00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 5: everyone heard. 301 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: You want to read it, It says Elon, come pick 302 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: me up, I'll give you a baby, thank you. 303 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 4: Okay. 304 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I certainly courage everyone in this room 305 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: to have at least three children. Like looks maybe it's 306 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: got to come from somewhere. 307 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 5: But Sophia, I guess back to the overall macro numbers though. 308 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 5: On I mean, I get why individual countries are having 309 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 5: declines in birth rates for any number of reasons, including, 310 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 5: by the way, dropping teen pregnancy, which is a great achievement. 311 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 5: But overall, the world went from, as your story says, 312 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 5: two billion humans on earth to eight billion now and 313 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 5: projected ten billion going forward. I don't remember exactly when, 314 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 5: so I just ask again, what's the problem here. 315 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: It's complicated. I think there are a lot of different 316 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: issues that people would bring up. I think the Musk 317 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: Camp they sort of see this like upcoming ten billion number, 318 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: and they see it not too far off in the distance. 319 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: The UN projects that that's going to happen by the 320 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 1: time we hit twenty one hundred the year twenty one hundred, 321 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: so ten billion people plus by twenty one hundred. Okay, 322 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: then what happens after that? And their whole problem is, well, 323 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: if birth rates continue to decline, especially at the rate 324 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: that they have been, then we're just going to have 325 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: like a huge drop in population over the coming decades centuries. 326 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: So that is sort of what they see as a problem. 327 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 5: Let me just stop you there for a second, let's 328 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 5: pretend that this argument is correct and that there is 329 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 5: a huge drop of some kind or another in population 330 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 5: decades down the road. Does that matter in a like 331 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 5: a really negative, awful kind of way. 332 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: Well, then then the second part of it is that 333 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 1: a lot of these these drops are happening primarily in 334 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: wealthy countries with the biggest consumers. So a lot of 335 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: pernatalists are really genuinely concerned about the global economy and 336 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: what's going to happen to economic growth if this can 337 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: needs to happen if we have fewer consumers and if 338 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: they're older, and also then we're just gonna have a 339 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: sort of lopsided population. We're gonna have a lot of 340 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: old people people are living longer and fewer young people 341 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: to take care of them. So that is another concern. 342 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: Social security, of course, who's gonna pay for that? Things 343 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: like that. These are all things that pronata lists will 344 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: bring up when they talk about their concerns. 345 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 4: Well, Sophie's talking about talking kind of about sort of 346 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 4: the more mainstream version of this, and then there's a 347 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 4: race science tinged version of it, which is that it's 348 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 4: not just the fear that you know, we're going to 349 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 4: be really old and there's going to be no one 350 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 4: to you know, change our adult typers. It's it's the 351 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 4: fear that white culture will be lost, and like and 352 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 4: you do. They're versions of this kind of concern about 353 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 4: population that don't have that second part, you know, where 354 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 4: they're really just saying like, look, we need we need 355 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 4: birth rates to stay up, and these western countries need 356 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 4: a lot of immigration. Elon Musk as you right bring 357 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 4: up David or hinting at anyway, he's very much not 358 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 4: in favor of just like opening the border because he's 359 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 4: worried about italianness, koreanness, americanness, whatever. And you can really 360 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 4: see like there is some really dark connections here to 361 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 4: eugenics and to some periods of you know, global history 362 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 4: that I think we'd all like to not go back to. 363 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it is this interesting and very precarious 364 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 5: fine line between what could be sort of well thought 365 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 5: out long term concerns about whether it be underpopulation or 366 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 5: overpopulation as it's related to climate change, and then the 367 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 5: use of those arguments, turning those arguments in by governments 368 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 5: into exercises in eugenics and other sorts of things. 369 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: I think, yes, exactly. And I think the thing that 370 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: the people who are in this field, first of all, 371 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: demographers are very aware of this dark history. This is 372 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: essentially how the field of demography was created with these 373 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: sort of ill intentions. 374 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 5: So okay, so demography as a study is only born 375 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 5: once these sort of of. 376 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: The eugenics movement, essentially of you know, billionaires. 377 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 5: Give academic rigor and backing to their beliefs pretty much. Yeah. 378 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: An Emily Merchant has written quite a bit about this. 379 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: She's a professor at UC Davis, and she has a 380 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: whole book on this population bomb, the Making of the 381 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: Population Bomb, which is in the sixties. There's this guy 382 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: named Paul Erlick from Stanford and he publishes this book 383 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: about how, you know, our population is going so fast, 384 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: we're not going to be able to sustain this. The 385 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: end is coming. We're not going to have enough food, 386 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: there's going to be a global famine, and we're all 387 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: going to die out, probably by nineteen eighty five. In 388 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: this era that everyone's really freaked out. But I think 389 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: what demographers want all of us to know is that 390 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: Number One, it's very hard to change behavior, very hard 391 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: to change birth rates. You're not going to be able 392 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: to convince someone to have more kids just because they're 393 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 1: getting like a twelve hundred dollars check or even no 394 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: matter how big the amount is. 395 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 5: By the way, and I think China, once it's reversed 396 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 5: the one child policy, I think China is finding that 397 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 5: out right now. 398 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: Yes, this is a very sticky thing because it's well, 399 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: first of all, it becomes a cultural thing. You know, 400 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: how many babies you want to have is influenced by 401 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: what you see around you. But then the other thing 402 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: that they really want people to know is that it 403 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: is really hard to predict the birth behavior, the fertility 404 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: behaviors of people far into the future. 405 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is super hard to know what it's going 406 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 5: to take one hundred years. But Elon Ink will still 407 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 5: be rolling along Max in one hundred years. That's my sense, Dana. 408 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 5: That gets us into the something called the Population Well 409 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 5: Being Initiative that you guys reported on at length for 410 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 5: the story. Tell us what it is and what its 411 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 5: relationship is with the pro natalist movement and with Elon Musk. 412 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. So PWI is a real, relatively new kind of 413 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 3: interdisciplinary research center between economics and population at the University 414 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 3: of Texas at Austin, and it was created by a 415 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: ten million dollar donation from Elon Musk, which is extraordinary because, 416 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 3: you know, for a billionaire, ten ten million does not 417 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: seem like a lot of money, but it is Elon 418 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: Musk's largest donation to hire education to date, and it 419 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 3: is a huge sum for essentially the social sciences. I mean, 420 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 3: usually when rich people give money to hire it it's 421 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 3: to like name a building, or to like fund tuition 422 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 3: for students, or it's like a new you know, it's 423 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: like a new wing of something. To sort of give 424 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 3: ten million dollars to the social sciences is unheard of. 425 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 3: And the other thing is that this is an anonymous donation. 426 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: Musk has never acknowledged that he gave this donation. UT 427 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 3: Austin has never acknowledged that Musk donated the money. We 428 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 3: only know about it because Sophie got the Musk Foundation 429 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: tax records. We saw this ten million dollar line item 430 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 3: to UT Austin and we were like, what is this 431 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 3: donation for? And we just like painstakingly pieced it together. 432 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 5: So, Danna, what is the relationship between the institute and 433 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 5: the University of Texas of Austin. It's housed within the university. 434 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so the PWY, the Population Well Being Initiative, 435 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: is housed at UT Austin. The lead scholar who kind 436 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: of leads it is this guy named Dean Spears. Dean 437 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 3: and Elon have a relationship that we know of via 438 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: lots of public records, acts, requests, and emails. And now Dean, 439 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: who is an economist by training, is like the kind 440 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: of public face of this new pro natalist movement. He 441 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: had an op ed in the New York Times, He's 442 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: coming out with a book in the fall. He got 443 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 3: a six figure advance from Simon Schuster, and so this 444 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 3: is Musk basically using his money and wealth and influence 445 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 3: to kind of launder his ideas through academia. I mean, 446 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: that's you know, that's one way to look at it. 447 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 3: And it's just kind of unheard of that that Musk 448 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 3: is doing this. I mean, this is a guy who 449 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 3: wants to colonize Mars, but now he's basically funding academic 450 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: research that aligns with his worldview. 451 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the people who are funding 452 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: the initial movement had very specific goals, but you know, 453 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: who's to say what people believe in academia? It's I mean, 454 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: this is something that the story I hope gets at, 455 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: which is just because someone is funding something, does that 456 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: mean that they're influencing the research? And does that mean 457 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: that the people that who they are funding have the 458 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: same beliefs as the funder. So, I mean it's complicated. 459 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 4: I think like he believes this stuff. I think, I mean, 460 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 4: it's always hard. 461 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 5: I think there's no doubt. 462 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like I was thinking back, you know, 463 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 4: the very first time I met Elon Musk. I think 464 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 4: it was like in like fifteen years ago, maybe sixteen 465 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 4: years ago. This was one of the first things that 466 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 4: came out of his mouth was this was anxiety about 467 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 4: global popular collapse, which at the time I was like, 468 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 4: that's a weird way to open a conversation. 469 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 5: But I'm Elon Musk, and I'm worried about population. 470 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 4: Addition to, you know, like Dana says, attempting to you know, 471 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 4: insert his personal beliefs into mainstream academia, which is totally 472 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 4: a thing that rich people do all the time. He 473 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 4: is also, whether maybe wittingly or unwittingly, creating some legitimacy 474 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 4: to this kind of weird online thing which is kind 475 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 4: of connected to what these demographers are doing and kind 476 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 4: of not connected. 477 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: Dan. 478 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 5: There's also somebody from the Population Well Being Initiative now 479 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 5: inside the Biden White House, a fellow by the name 480 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 5: of Mike Garuso. Jeruso, Yeah, tell us a little bit 481 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 5: about him and how he scored that job. 482 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: So he the Population Well Being Initiative is kind of 483 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 3: this like interdisciplinary group of scholars. Some are full time 484 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 3: at u T Austin, some are post stocks or graduate 485 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: student summer at other universities. They've come together, they've done 486 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 3: conferences that they are on a lot of papers together. 487 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: Mike Russo was one of the early hires, and now 488 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: he is on the White House Council of Economic Advisors. 489 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 3: And then he helped to write like a paper, you know, 490 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: like a sort of presidential report. And so now you have, 491 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 3: you know, Musk who's pretty much seen as being like 492 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 3: a de facto endorser of Donald Trump, also wielding his 493 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 3: influence within the current Biden administration. 494 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 4: I'm just wondering if we think any of Elon's other 495 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 4: kind of weird pet causes also might have institutes at 496 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 4: weird at you know, state universities, Like do you think 497 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: there's a like University of Colorado simulation like simulation research, 498 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 4: or like a a sort of Joe Rogan Aliens theory 499 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 4: scholar at like somebody who like Elon's got a lot 500 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 4: of weird, quirky beliefs, He's got a lot of money. 501 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 4: There could be other and clearly, what you know, one 502 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: kind of thing that's hanging in the background of this 503 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 4: is this is a very rich person who has taken 504 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: a very unconventional approach to philanthropy. Right, it's not like 505 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 4: it kind of feels like he's writing these checks, you know, 506 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 4: just off the cuff or something. So who knows, there 507 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 4: could be way in addition to more babies, there could 508 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 4: be you know, more donations. 509 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 3: What I find kind of funny and ironic is that 510 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: he's always railing about how universities are sort of like 511 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: where the woke mind virus lies. And now we're seeing 512 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: him basically like influencing academia. And I would not be 513 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 3: surprised if there are other donations. You know, Tex records 514 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: are always like a year behind in terms of when 515 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 3: we get them. But he's also influencing, like I mean, 516 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: there's but there's also a campaign that goes along with. 517 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 5: This I mean, oh, perhaps not. But I ask Sophie, 518 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 5: is there not at some level potentially a direct or 519 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 5: indirect line between the natalist movement and the sudden emergence 520 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 5: in a post Roe v Way world of crackdowns and 521 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 5: abortion in states across the country. 522 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 6: Uh. 523 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: I think there's absolutely a direct line. I think there's 524 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: concern that the line will become more direct. But already 525 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: conservative politicians are alluding to these missing people that would 526 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: have not been missing had there not been abortion allowed, 527 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: who would really be a huge help to our economy 528 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: if they existed, because we need more workers. So yes, 529 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: there is there is a line there. And that's another 530 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: thing that demographers, especially feminist demographers, are concerned about, is 531 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: that this concern over population collapse is going to be 532 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: you know, misused by people who want to restrict reproductive 533 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: freedoms and not just abortion, birth control as well. 534 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 6: Well. 535 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 5: Sophie, terrific story. Join us again soon when you have 536 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 5: another one. Thank you. To wrap up this week, we're 537 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: back on the feud watch. Mister feud is hear himself? 538 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 5: Max Chat It's not oh it's a few day, it's 539 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 5: a feud. It's a feud. Tell us about it. Max, Okay, 540 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 5: you can't take it seriously. 541 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 4: You are musk Now has brought up this idea a 542 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 4: couple of times. I don't think it's a feud as 543 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 4: much as like a a amusing conspiracy theory, but that 544 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 4: the ex wives of billionaires are a threat to civilization. 545 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 5: Another threat to civilization. 546 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 4: You know, this guy has a lot these were There 547 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 4: are a lot of threats going on, and I guess, 548 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 4: I guess. 549 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 5: How many can humanity take? 550 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 4: I should make a threat board right with all the 551 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 4: woke mind virus population. 552 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 5: Before the threat change for the threat board, I need 553 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 5: a feud rankings. 554 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 4: Okay, so, but this is the sort of objects of 555 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 4: his ire are Melinda Gates and Mackenzie Scott. Those would 556 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 4: be the ex wives of Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. 557 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 4: There's a sort of political point here, which is that 558 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 4: they're both making donations to left leaning organizations and democratic politicians. 559 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 5: I do think I think Ewan said it quote might 560 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 5: be the downfall. This was the quote, right, that those 561 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 5: donations are indeed to the downfall of civilization. Point there, 562 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 5: they might be downfall Western civilization. 563 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 4: I feel like, I don't know, like it would be 564 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 4: irresponsible not to because this is so funny, but I 565 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 4: have to say, like I do I think this is 566 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: this is crazy say it, but I do think if 567 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 4: you squint you kind of see like a genius bit 568 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 4: of cyber truck marketing, because you know, this is like 569 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 4: you got the cyber truck, which is this post apocalyptic vehicle. 570 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 4: You can seal the windows, and of course anyone the 571 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 4: buyers of the cyber truck, like, let's be honest, they're 572 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 4: gonna be somewhat receptive, like, you know, my ex wife 573 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 4: is a danger to civilization message, so I would not 574 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 4: be surprised if we start. You know, Tesla doesn't advertise, 575 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 4: but I think this could be a really great way 576 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 4: to increase the audience the buyers of the cyber truck. 577 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 5: Dana, longtime Tesla reporter, thumbs up or thumbs down on 578 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 5: Max's theory. 579 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 3: This is all way yeah, yeah, I mean the cyber 580 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: truck does sort of appeal to this post apocalyptic version 581 00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: of the world. But I just wanted to be clear. 582 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 3: But he's mad at Musk is sort of mad at 583 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 3: Mackenzie Scott because of her donations to progressive causes, and 584 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: then he's upset with Melinda Gates because she endorsed Biden, right, 585 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: But I just think it's like, why is he making 586 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 3: such a thing about like what rich women are doing 587 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: with their money? Like why is he going after these 588 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 3: two particular women. Is it an extension of his beef 589 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 3: with Jeff and Bill? Is it a new Is it 590 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 3: like an independent beef that stands on its own with 591 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: these women? 592 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 4: I think it's an independent beef. The framing of this, 593 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 4: framing them as ex wives, I think sort of creates 594 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 4: and especially Elon as as himself a billionaire with some 595 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 4: ex wives. I feel like it sets it up as 596 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 4: a direct feud rather than a proxy war between Elon 597 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 4: and Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates. 598 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 5: But it's it's pretty weird. Okay, we're done now this week. 599 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 5: But before we hang up here, I just got to 600 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 5: say again, I don't mind at all this idea of 601 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 5: a global civilization threat board. That's kind of fun, But 602 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 5: we need to prioritize we need the feud rankings first, 603 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 5: and then we can go on to these other pots. 604 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 4: I don't think we can. I don't think any I 605 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 4: don't think the Mackenzie Scott or Melinda Gates feud makes 606 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: the top five. I don't know. 607 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 5: Definitely not top five. But are they top fifty? 608 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: Oh we have a top fifty. 609 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, all right, Max, thank you very much. 610 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 4: Right to civilization you got. It's gotta be on the 611 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 4: top fifty. 612 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 5: By default, you gotta be top fifty. Fair Max, thanks 613 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 5: as always, great to be here, Dana, thank you. This 614 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 5: episode was produced by Stacy Wang. Naomi Shaven and Rayhan 615 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 5: Harmanci are senior editors. The idea for this very show 616 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 5: also came from Rayhon Blake Maple's Handles Engineering, and we 617 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 5: get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott and Toni and 618 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 5: muffarech and Arifat Jalasho Perry. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. 619 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 5: The elon Ing theme is written and performed by Taka 620 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 5: Yasuzawa and Alex Seviera. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, 621 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 5: and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A 622 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 5: big thanks as always to our supporter Joel Weber. I'm 623 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 5: David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review 624 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 5: our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you 625 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 5: next week.