1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House to 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and let's offer a snapshot of 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: women and photography, a portrait of women's contributions to the 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: field of photography. Caroline filtering the knowledge for you. This 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: won't be an Instagram Wait, okay, I don't have a 7 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: punt for Instagram. It's too bad. Uh. Yeah, we're gonna 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: talk about women in photography, which is a huge subject, 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: but we're gonna offer some historical highlights and also talk 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: about gender and photography today, more behind the lens, not 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: stuff so much in front of the camera in terms 12 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: of what people are taking pictures of, but talking about 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: the women behind the camera. So let's go back in 14 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: history to eighteen thirty nine. Yeah, Frenchman Louis de Gere 15 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: perfects his Daguerreo type, the world's first form of photography, 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: and women were involved from the get go. But let's 17 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the technology. So we 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: have the introduction of the mass marketed Kodak box camera, 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: and part of marketing this Codak camera and this Kodak 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: technology was the Kodak girl in the Kodak Girl appears 21 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: in the company's national advertising, a character embodying independence and travel, 22 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: and the whole Kodak Girl thing was so significant for 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: women photography at the time, in the same way that 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: we talked about in the podcast recently on Secretaries of 25 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: how typewriters were initially marketed to women. It was this 26 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: brand new technology, and Kodak was like, you know what, 27 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: women would love this new hand called easier to use camera, 28 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: and their advertising images showed women shooting pictures at home, 29 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: out with friends, having a great time, just snapping their 30 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: old timey photographs. You know, you mentioned the Secretary episode 31 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: and the typewriter, and I actually was thinking the same 32 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: thing as I was reading this stuff, um, but in 33 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: regards to a new industry developing, So there was no 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: precedence for it as far as what gender it was 35 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: aligned with, because you know, obviously we talked about in 36 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: the Secretary episode how it was new, the typewriter was new, 37 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: and so women could just get into those jobs. It 38 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: wasn't considered a male pursuit. It was kind of the 39 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: same with photography. Yes, there was technology and and you 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: were outside and these were two things that were not 41 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: typically associated with women, but as the photography industry really 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: got going, I mean there were a ton of women 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: who got involved. Yeah, and in n when Kodak released 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: its first Brownie camera, which was lightweight and more inexpensive. 45 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: This also revolutionize things for women. And I like how 46 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Kodak advertised it by saying there's a new pleasure on 47 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: every phase of photography while showing a woman having lots 48 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: of pleasure holding a Brownie camera. Just carry it around, 49 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: like when hipsters wear fate glasses. That's women just carrying 50 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: brownies around. I'm going to start carrying around a nineteen 51 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: hundred brownie. Yeah, yeah, sure, who needs an iPhone and 52 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: Instagram when you have a camera that won't work my 53 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: thoughts exactly, all right, So you know we're talking about 54 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: women being outside and and following different hobbies and things. 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: In the mid to late nineteenth century, we get bicycles 56 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: and bicycle clubs, and then photography clubs and photography bicycle clubs. Yeah. 57 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: I love this. In the mid eighteen nineties, the whole 58 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: combination of cameras plus bicycles, plus the emergence of the 59 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: new woman who is more emancipated because she's riding a 60 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: bicycle and she's taking pick there's things outside that she sees. 61 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: Is like this this huge craze for a bit, and 62 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: it seems a little dangerous because I can imagine that 63 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: wielding a camera while riding a bicycle. Hopefully they stopped, Yeah, 64 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: I assume that they stopped. But still it was kind 65 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: of a sign of the times, though, that women were 66 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: wielding this new technology and getting around on their own 67 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: on bicycles, and people who were debating it at the 68 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: time we're saying, like, well, it seems a little risque, 69 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: but I guess it's a it's an acceptable form of 70 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: women getting their exercise. And photography in general exploded. I mean, 71 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: ever since you know, degere perfected the de guerreotype, studios 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: were popping up everywhere. Yeah, especially out west. According to 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: found s f San Francisco dot org, photography became an 74 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: emancipator of women out on the western frontier, and a 75 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: lot of times these women would go out there following husbands, brothers, 76 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: fathers and pick up the trade from the men in 77 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: their lives and continue to work the studios. So it 78 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: really wasn't weird. I mean, it was like, okay, well, 79 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: it's weird that there's a woman out here on the frontier, 80 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: but it wasn't necessarily weird. Little woman would be working 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: a at a photo studio. So women were involved in photography, 82 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: like we said, from the very beginning, and particularly out 83 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: west during the gold Rush, they worked in all sorts 84 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: of related activities, not just shooting the actual photos. They 85 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: worked as studio photographers, traveling photographers, proprietors, gallery owners, retouchers, colorists, 86 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,239 Speaker 1: and photo mounters, and they also joined the swelling ranks 87 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: of amateur art photographers. And these women who worked particularly 88 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: as like colorists and retouchers, could actually make a lot 89 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: more money than women could in other traditional female roles 90 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: at the time. In the same way, again echoing that 91 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: Secretary podcast and how early typists were earning a lot 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: more money than they could, say as garment workers, which 93 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: was one of the most common ways for women to 94 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: earn money outside of the home, but in the West, 95 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: which was mostly dominated like by by men who were 96 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: out there for the gold Rush. From eighty nine hundred, 97 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: there were seventies seven working female photographers and two hundred 98 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: and five women earning a living in related trades, along 99 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: with fifty two women who were documented as amateur or 100 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,559 Speaker 1: fine art photographers, which sounds like a small group of women, 101 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: but considering their proportions in relation to the you know, 102 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: the the gold rust population was very sizeable. Yeah. And 103 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: one woman who advertised her services out there was Julia Shannon, 104 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: who in eighteen fifty put an ad in the San 105 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: Francisco Alta newspaper notice di guariotypes taken by a lady. 106 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: Lady is capitalized. Those wishing to have a good likeness 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: are informed that they can have them taken in a 108 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: very superior manner, and by a real live lady too, 109 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: in Clay Street, opposite the St. Francis Hotel, at a 110 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: very moderate charge. Give her a collgence. Yeah, and I 111 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: can imagine that Julia Shannon quite well for herself because 112 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: she probably emphasized the fact that your picture will be 113 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: taken by a real live lady, because there were not 114 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: many real live ladies around in gold Rush California. Right, 115 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: you've been panning for gold all day, Come in and 116 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: see a lady. But why, Caroline, were women able to 117 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: pursue photography in these early years. It wasn't just because 118 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: of the Kodak girl. Um, It's that's that whole fact 119 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: of the technology being brand new and therefore not gender 120 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: segregated yet. Yeah, and there was a lack of established 121 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: schools basically that could deny them admittance. So it's like 122 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: definition by negative. You know, there was nobody to say no. 123 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: So they just got involved. And you know, like I said, 124 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot of them worked in family businesses and inherited 125 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: the trade from a husband or a father. And it 126 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: really became the case that photography studios were one of 127 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: the first businesses they were okay for women to own 128 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: and run, and in the western particular, in this you know, 129 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: this frontier environment. It's interesting that photography became acceptable and 130 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: even desirable for women working in say San Francisco's photo industry, 131 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: because social critics at the time argued that adventurous women 132 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: needed a suitable occupation, like being a studio photographer, uh, 133 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: that offered higher wages so that they wouldn't end up 134 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: in a life of vice. Keep women busy, or else 135 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: they will end up selling their bodies. That always happens 136 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: every time I'm bored. Every time I'm bored. So by 137 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: one documented women working in the photographic industry, and by 138 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred women composed ever of America's professional registered photographers. 139 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: But just because women were wheelding the camera and you know, 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: exploring this new technology, did not mean that it was 141 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: necessarily easy for women to sell their photos, particularly for 142 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: the ad industry in the early twentieth century, because in 143 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: terms of taking portraits, doing studio photography or amateur or 144 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: fine art photography, women were really you know, finding their stride. 145 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: But in advertising that was something that was already an entrenched, 146 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: male dominated industry. Yeah, in the early twentieth century, agencies 147 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: for selling photographs, according to Jermaine Kral, seemed to have 148 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: been reserved for men. However, the increase in advertising in Germany, 149 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: in particular in the late nineteen twenties and early nineteen thirties, 150 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: made it possible for women to make it in the field. 151 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: The writer lists Ellen Auerbach and Gret Stern, who were 152 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: praised for their quote inborn womanly instinct for the delicate 153 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: nuances of textiles, which sounds like a whole lot of 154 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: benevolent sexism, saying, Oh, you're so good at this because 155 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: you're a woman. You're so good at knowing what cloth 156 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: looks like because you're empathetic, but by that same regard 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: to As women start making strides in more of the 158 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: business side of photography, it still took a while for 159 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: them to be taken seriously. From the nineteen forties on 160 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: there were gains an advertising, fashion, and publicity photography, and 161 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: in a ninety five summary of photography related opportunities for women, 162 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: one commentator urge women to earn quote unquote pin money 163 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: by supplying magazines with pictures of domestic subjects between two 164 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: dollars and five dollars to print, and speaking of the 165 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: two dollars to five dollars per print again same as 166 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: with secretarial work. Around the same time, even though those 167 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: kinds of jobs were allowing women to earn more wages 168 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: than they would in other industries, they were still being 169 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: paid about half as much as men doing the same thing, right, 170 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: and another commentator on this summary of job opportunities for 171 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: women photographers, it gets worse than saying, well, they can 172 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: get a little extra money for their bobbles and things. 173 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: Another guy dismissed women as a handy photo gadget for 174 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: their photographer husbands. So they're just like an accessory. Yeah, 175 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: that is one thing that photo historians will point out 176 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: is that for even the more recognized male photographers of 177 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: the era, they had you know, often wives with them 178 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: who were traveling and helping them develop their films, set 179 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: up their shots, doing all of this very integral work. Um. 180 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: But during World War Two and that manpower drain as 181 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: a lot of men left their jobs to go fight, 182 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: female photographers got improved access to, especially women's magazines such 183 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: as Better Homes and Gardens, House, Beautiful House and Garden 184 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: and McCall's. And after the war, commissions were typically given 185 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: to women on other women and on minority groups topics 186 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: that editors considered less important. And that question of our 187 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: women relegated to shooting women's interests and domestic related subjects 188 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: is something that we'll talk about today because it's a 189 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: debate that is still going on for women in photography 190 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen. Yeah, well, so do you want 191 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: to talk about some early pioneers before we get into 192 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: the gender discussion. Let's do it. Let's do it. Lady 193 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: Clementina Hawarden is one of Britain's first female photographers. This 194 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: is coming from her profile in the Telegraph. She started 195 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: shooting in eighteen fifty seven and in the eighteen sixties, 196 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: some of her images that she shot of her daughters 197 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: were considered to be some of Britain's first fashion shoots. Yeah. 198 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: She often shot her daughter's Isabella, Grace, Clementina and Florence 199 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: Elizabeth in romantic and sensual poses. Uh. She had pretty 200 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: iconic set dressings that were usually covered with gossamer curtains, 201 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: a freestanding her, a small chest of drawers, and Empire 202 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: star wallpaper. So she definitely developed a look. But even 203 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: though the look might seem kind of commonplace, you know 204 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: you're thinking, oh, curtains in a mirror, no big whoop. 205 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: Her themes were highly progressive for the time, and they included, 206 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: as reported on in the Telegraph, identity otherness, the doppelganger, 207 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: and here we go female sexuality, which for a Victorian 208 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: era female photographer, pretty progressive stuff. Yeah. In eighteen sixty 209 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: three and eighteen sixty four she won silver medals from 210 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: the Photographic Society, and she had admirers including Louis Carroll 211 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: and photography specialist Frances get spickernell Um in recent times 212 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: has said that the photography recognition she received was a 213 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: tremendous achievement. She said, most photography was very masculine and 214 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: mostly architectural, so these elegant feminine shots really stood out 215 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: at that time. Now, a contemporary of how Arden's was 216 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: Juliet Margaret Cameron, and she's been highly praised, more so 217 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: by contemporary critics than her critics at the time she 218 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: received her first camera. I thought this was funny when 219 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: she was forty eight years old in eighteen sixty three 220 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: and her kids essentially like moved away and we're like, here, mom, 221 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: have a camera to keep yourself entertained, and they all 222 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: know what happens to women who aren't occupied. Oh, that's 223 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: right in this camera. M otherwise ended up on the street. 224 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: But she was deeply religious, well read, and eccentric and 225 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: had some pretty famous friends such as Charles Darwin, Alfred 226 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Lloyd Tennyson, and Robert Browning. And Cameron immediately started taking 227 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: all sorts of pictures, especially portraits and figure studies on 228 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: literary and biblical themes, which was something that was unprecedented, 229 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: and she quickly became one of the most highly admired 230 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: Victorian photographers. Yeah, she was a very a quick learner. 231 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: Within a year and a half she'd sold eighty Prince 232 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: to the Victorian Albert Museum. But she also went about 233 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: in an entrepreneurial fashion, rapidly copyrighting her work, exhibiting her work, 234 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: and she even established her on two room studio. But 235 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: she did get snubbed, as I said, from some of 236 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: her critics at the time. In the Photographic Journal in 237 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, someone commented that Mrs Cameron exhibits a 238 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: series of out of focused portraits of celebrities. We must 239 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: give this lady credit for daring originality, but at the 240 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: expense of all other photographic qualities. And not surprisingly such 241 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: criticism infuriated Cameron. But she pretty much got the last 242 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: lap because, for instance, a lot of our information about 243 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: hers coming from the website of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. 244 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: So she certainly put her stamp on art history at large. 245 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Moving forward just a little bit, we 246 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: have Francis Benjamin Johnston, who's one of America's first and 247 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: foremost women photographer. She trained in Paris in art and 248 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: in photography at the Art Students League in d C. 249 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: And opened her own studio around eighteen ninety. And what 250 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: really helped her out is Johnson's family's social status. They 251 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: gave her access to the First family and leading Washington 252 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: political figures. She actually that helped her launch her career 253 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: as a photojournalist and a portrait photographer. Yeah. For instance, 254 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: thanks to a letter of introduction from uh Teddy Roosevelt, 255 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: no big deal, Johnston boarded Admiral Dewey's flagship and interviewed 256 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: him and route to the Philippines, Which I mean, this 257 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: is going on in the late eighteen hundred's, early nineten hundreds, 258 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: and Johnson was, you know, a pretty pioneering woman in 259 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: general to be hanging out on a ship like that. 260 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: And there's this great iconic picture that she took. It's 261 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: a self portrait of her and she's sitting in a 262 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: chair hunched forward and she has her skirt pull up 263 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: to reveal her petticoat. She was very risque of the time. 264 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: I want to see she's smoking a cigarette too, and 265 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: she just it's a very masculine post. But you can 266 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: just tell from it that she gave no hoops about 267 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: what people thought of her. No hoots were given. And 268 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen hundred, Johnston was chosen as one of two 269 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: American women delicates at the International Congress of Photography where 270 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: she spoke out on behalf of women photographers and displayed 271 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: pictures from thirty female colleagues around the US. Yeah, and 272 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: she was really promotional of women getting into photography. She 273 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: wrote a series of articles, for instance in the Ladies 274 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: Home Journal, and there was one articles she wrote called 275 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: what a Woman Can Do with a Camera in which 276 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: she talks about the qualities that you need to be 277 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: a solid photographer. And she says, the woman who makes 278 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: photography profitable must have as to personal qualities, good common sense, 279 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: unlimited patients to carry her through endless failures, equally unlimited tact, 280 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: good taste, a quick eye, a talent for detail, and 281 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: a genius for hard work. And I think that that 282 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: advice is probably still of the advice that would be 283 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: given to women looking to pick up the camera today. 284 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: But the thing is and and Johnston's story points to 285 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we wanted to highlight women 286 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: in photography is that even though at the time she 287 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: was this very important pioneer and had a pretty high 288 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: public profile, the first significant monograph of her work didn't 289 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: come around until nineteen seventy. She's one of many female 290 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: photographers who were making great strides during the time, but 291 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: who have been pretty much ignored in photo history up 292 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: until recent decades. Yeah, one woman who made a lot 293 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: of waves was Margaret Burke White, who's actually one of 294 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: the most famous photojournalists of the twentieth and tree. And 295 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: she has a saucy quote, if anybody gets in my 296 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: way when I'm making a picture, I become a rational 297 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: I'm never sure what I'm going to do, only that 298 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: I want that picture. And so she was born in 299 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: the Bronx in nineteen o four and began work after 300 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: college as a commercial photographer, but she made rapid exponential 301 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: strides later in life, and in nine she became the 302 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: first photographer for Fortune magazine, and in nineteen thirty six, 303 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: a black and white photo of her has made the 304 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: cover of the first issue of Life magazine. Yeah, it 305 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: was an image of the construction of the Fort Peck Dam, 306 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: which was a Public Works Administration project to build the 307 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: largest earth damn in the world during the Great Depression. 308 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: And in getting that gig, she was the only female 309 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: Life magazine staffer, and she invented the photo essay for 310 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: the magazine, and her work became very famous at the time. 311 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: And she began as a commercial photographer documenting the Achievements 312 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: Corporation and then applied that dramatic style that she honed 313 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: with industrial and architectural subjects to photo essays in places 314 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: all around the world, including Germany. She actually took pictures 315 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: from one of the concentration camps that was being liberated 316 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: at the time, and those pictures, I mean just shocked 317 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: audiences around the world. Um. She also took pictures in 318 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. She was I think the first Western 319 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: photographer to go to the Soviet Union. She also documented 320 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: the Midwest during the dust Bowl, and and you know, 321 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: took pictures of these these harrowing pictures of families who 322 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: were suffering at the time. And she was known for 323 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: her fearlessness in doing all of this. Yeah, she was 324 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: definitely no shrinking Violet. She was the first female war 325 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: correspondent and the first to be allowed to work in 326 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: combat zones during World War Two. Yeah, and I wish 327 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: there was some way. This is an audio podcast, and 328 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: so trying to describe photography in a very meaning full 329 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: way is a bit challenging. I wish there was some 330 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: kind of visual maybe with Google glasses, maybe you could 331 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: see a slide show right now of all of this photography. Um. 332 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: And there are so many more important female photographers that 333 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: we aren't even able to touch on in depth. I mean, 334 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: they're women like Dorothea Lange, Tina Medote, Image and Cunning Hand, 335 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: Diane Arbus, Helen Levitt, Annie Leeboitz, etcetera, etcetera. And those 336 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: are only a few of the women that we ran across. 337 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: But we only had time to offer, like we said, 338 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: a snapshot of women's photography. Um. But we really want 339 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: to now dig into the issue of gender because we've 340 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: established that women in photography history have remained under represented, 341 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: even though you have you know, the Margaret Burke whites, 342 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: but she and I would say, in today's terms, someone 343 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: like Annie Leebwitz or even like Cindy Sherman. Uh. You know, 344 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: we have these big names, but it's just a handful 345 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: of them. And some wonder whether the industry still remains 346 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: male dominated because we've tried to kind of go back 347 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: and correct their record and give women their due, but 348 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: there's still more progress that needs to be made. And 349 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: as long as women have been in photography, women have 350 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: also been involved in trying to draw recognition to their 351 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: female colleagues in the industry. This starts really early. In 352 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: eighty nine, Catherine Weid Barnes and New York amateur photographer 353 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: petition for the Special Photography Awards for women to be eliminated. 354 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: She said, and I might you know that might seem counterintuitive, 355 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: but she says that if the work of men and 356 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: women is admitted to the same exhibition, it should be 357 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: on equal terms. And that is a question that does 358 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: come up with not just in photography, but you can 359 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: name any other industry. It's this question of whether calling 360 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: out women for doing work in a specific field kind 361 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: of undercuts progress because are we saying that, oh, well, 362 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: this is wonderful photography by women, or should we just say, 363 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: as Katherine Weed Barnes would would advocate for, oh what 364 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: a wonderful photograph and it doesn't matter. But the question 365 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: is then doesn't matter? I mean, in the nineteen sixties 366 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: and seventies, in the wake of feminist political action, gender 367 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: absolutely mattered. There is a new found interest sprang up 368 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: in women's photography, both contemporary and historical, and some feminists 369 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: sought to resituate the work of women photographers within that 370 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: larger history of photography and rescue women photographers who had 371 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: disappeared from the historical records. So you probably did for 372 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: that reason see things like that nineteen seventy monograph of 373 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: Frances Benjamin Johnston's work, and so in that regard you 374 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: can argue that, yes, having exhibitions that focus solely on 375 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: work produced by women is important because of a legacy 376 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: of sexism. Well yeah, I mean, it's not that you 377 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: look at a photo and you say that was taken 378 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: by a woman or that was taken by a man. 379 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't matter if a great photo was 380 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: taken by one or the other. However, we can't forget 381 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: that there are very important women contributing to the field 382 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: like that. I think that matters more than knowing that 383 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: a photograph was taken by a woman or a man, Right, 384 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: It's more of that educational aspect, and that's why you 385 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: know there there was a movement in the seventies to 386 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: to highlight that kind of art. For instance, in nineteen 387 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: seventy five there was at the San Francisco Museum of 388 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: Modern Art an exhibition called Women of Photography Historical Survey 389 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: with fifty women photographers. In nineteen seventy nine, the International 390 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: Center for Photography sponsored recollections ten Women of Photography, which 391 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: was partially funded by the National Endowment for the Arts. 392 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: And it was around this time too, in the seventies 393 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: and moving into the eighties, that media savy artists like 394 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: Barbara Krueger and Cindy Sherman did a lot of work 395 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: to undermine the authority of the male gaze and commercialism 396 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. For instance, Krueger's Your Body is 397 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: a Battleground. She actually uh interpreted a lot of photography 398 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: like advertisements to sort of undermine the way that media 399 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: looked at women at the time. Yeah, and we don't 400 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of time to delve into feminist photography, 401 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: but they definitely did spring up in the seventies, eighties, nineties, 402 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of it was more political and examining 403 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: like the women's uh, female body and the whole thing 404 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: of the male gaze and sort of playing with all 405 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: of those concepts, sort of infusing feminism with photography and uh. 406 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: Speaking though of Cindy Sherman, I think it's pretty notable 407 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: that in two thousand eleven, she's sold the most expensive 408 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: photograph in history. It was a self portrait called untitled, 409 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: and it's sold for almost three point nine million dollars 410 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: je But in response to oh, you know, someone's buying 411 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: this female produced piece of are what does this mean? 412 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: And essentially our critics were like, it just means that 413 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: art is funny money. You know, you just plunked down 414 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: a lot of money. There's a weird kind of competition 415 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: among art collectors, and it's really no big deal that 416 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: it was produced by Cindy Sherman as opposed to say 417 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: man ray Yeah. Moving forward to today, a photographer Paul 418 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: Melcher started a debate on the Black Star Rising blog 419 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: when he was talking about the importance or the unimportance 420 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: of calling out photographers genders and and how that affected anybody. 421 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: He says that it seems that political correctness has now 422 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: started to reach the shores of the previously sexless island 423 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: of photography. It appears that some people with a highly 424 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: developed social conscience want you to know the gender of 425 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: a photographer whose picture you admire, as if it made 426 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: any difference. And then Melissa Golden, who's a photographer who 427 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: we actually worked with at our college newspapers, We did 428 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: made a public response to Melcher, saying, you know, like, 429 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: essentially the idea that the gender shouldn't matter is true. 430 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: He's got a good point. But she talks about how 431 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: when she was fighting her way into the often boys 432 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: club of professional photography, especially if you look at more 433 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: veteran figures, it is dominated by men, and she said, 434 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: it took me too long to figure out the drinking 435 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: massive amounts of alcohol and putting up with sexual harassment 436 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: were not the tests I had to pass to join 437 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: the club. And she said, I now know it took 438 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: me so long because I didn't have a strong senior 439 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: female photographer editor willing to take me in and tell 440 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: me there's another better way. And this kind of brings 441 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: up the whole question of you know, like, is feminism 442 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: still useful? Well, yeah, it is, because we don't live 443 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: in a society that's free from sexism, and we're not 444 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: living in this gender equal utopia. So unfortunately, gender does 445 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: still matter. I mean, I wish that Melcher was right 446 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: and that it is just a excellus island, as he says, 447 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: but no, but the debate, it seems like the debate 448 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: on whether gender matters has been going on forever and 449 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: it will continue to do so because you have people 450 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: like Princeton Women's Studies and Art and Archaeology professor Carol Armstrong, 451 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: who says that male and female photographers have always ventured 452 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: into the same territory, but women do so with more 453 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: empathy for the subject. Then you have British writers slash 454 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: critics Griselda Pollock and Janet Wolfe, who asserted that there 455 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: is no intrinsic feminine or masculine essence, only complex networks 456 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: of culturally conditioned markers that construct what superficially appears to 457 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: be coherent gender identity. So essentially, what they're saying in 458 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: the book Photography, a Cultural History by Mary Warner Marian 459 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: is that there are no gender differences in how men 460 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: and women approach photography right, and that is echoed in 461 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: a blog post on the News Photographers Association of Canada 462 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: blogged by Renee Blackstone. She interviewed a number of female 463 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: photojournalists on the question of whether gender differences exists because 464 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: you do that issue of oh, well, women have more 465 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: empathy with their subjects. Women might be able to approach 466 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: a situation, a more sensitive situation better than a male 467 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: photographer could And some of the photojournalists said, yeah, women 468 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: might be better in situations where quote unquote a kind 469 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: of intimacy is required and a certain woman to woman 470 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: trust can be developed. But a lot of them said, 471 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: you know what, there's really no difference. Men and women 472 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: are both doing social documentary work, and in the same 473 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: way that women can go into places that men can't, 474 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: I would say that men can probably go into plenty 475 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: of places that women can't. And I don't know, I 476 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of hesitation just saying that, 477 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, what women bring to the table are more 478 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: finely tuned emotions. I think that while, yes, your emotions 479 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: will influence your art and your work, I don't know 480 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: that that should be you know, the platform on which 481 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: we call for equality or progress. Yeah, well, simply because 482 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: I would think that veteran male photographers would give no 483 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: hoots to quote myself about your emotion, especially in the workplace. Yeah, 484 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: and I'm also I mean, like we're sitting here speaking 485 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 1: as not experienced photographers or photojournalists. But um, you know, 486 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: it does make me wonder whether that's really a useful argument. 487 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's one reason why if you do 488 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: talk to a lot of women about this that they're 489 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, there aren't really gender 490 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: differences and how women and men take pictures. What we 491 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: see and don't see. I mean when I worked at 492 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: the newspaper, I mean half of our staff, half of 493 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: our photo staff as men, half as women. And they 494 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: were all brilliant. But they weren't. Maybe it's because we 495 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: were in a metropolitan newspaper and we aren't sending people 496 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: to a rack or anything to take dangerous pictures. But 497 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, they went to their various fair 498 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: county fair assignments and and you know, criminal trial assignments 499 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: and took pictures and I mean, they were all brilliant. 500 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't a case of like we need to send 501 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: Jackie to this one because she's a girl. We need 502 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: to send you know, Mike to this one because he's 503 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: a boy. Jackie is going to the baby judging contests. 504 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: Jack's going to the NASCAR race. Go um. But numbers wise, though, 505 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: there are more men involved in photography um. According to 506 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: the National Endowment for the Arts Artists in the Workforce 507 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: Survey from thousand and five, forty two eight percent of 508 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: all the people who listed themselves as professional photographers were women, 509 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: so less than half, but this was also a compelling statistic. 510 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: Sixt of those women were under thirty five, meaning that 511 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: men comprise the majority of the veteran successful photographers. So 512 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: photography is also one area where you know, women are 513 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: wondering whether or not there is some kind of off ramp. 514 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: Maybe it has to do with, like Melissa Golden talked about, 515 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: not having you know, the senior editor to encourage your 516 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: onward a female mentor um. There's a question of why 517 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: in a lot of art schools women might be out 518 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: numbering men in the student body in terms of who's 519 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: studying photography, but once they get out there seems to 520 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: they seem to thin out. Yeah, Well, what really thins 521 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: out is pay for women, because according to this report, 522 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: there's a major pay gap. The median income from male 523 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: photographer is thirty five thou five hundred dollars, for a 524 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: woman it's sixteen thousand, three hundred. And I think maybe 525 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: as a result of those of a huge pay gap 526 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: like that, women photographers have really been honing in on 527 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: certain areas like wedding photography and the family portraiture um 528 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: to which there was an article hole over at the 529 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: Grindstone talking about the ghettoization of female photographers and weddings, saying, all, 530 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: we can shoot our weddings as all people tosses their weddings. 531 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: Well I don't think that's true, but you can. I 532 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: also know that you can make boku de bucks or 533 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: as a wedding photographer. Well that's that's what I'm saying 534 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: order to close up that that income gap. Get into 535 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: wedding photography. But I but I am curious to hear 536 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: from female photographers out there, whether there they are instantly 537 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: assumed to be you know, if there if you're a 538 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: woman walking around with a camera around your neck, you know, 539 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: are you just assumed to be on your way to 540 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: a wedding? Well, you know, you talked about whether there 541 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: were female role models or mentors in the industry. Fiona Rodgers, 542 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: who started the Firecracker Photographic Grant in twenty eleven to 543 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: support women photographers, says that well, there seems to me 544 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: to be an abundance of women studying photography. Would appear 545 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: that a large percentage leave education and take on administrational, 546 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: organizational or nurturing roles within the visual arts, and she 547 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: goes on to say that Firecracker was established as a 548 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: way of supporting women photographers and linking them with a 549 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: wider public and industry audience, which is good. I mean, 550 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: it sounds like within the industry there is a greater 551 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: effort to link women up with other women to offer 552 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: more support. Women are also making strides on their own. 553 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: This is coming from the British Journal of Photography. Um. 554 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: It was an article talking about how women are really 555 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: coming into their own with social portraiture, which was traditionally 556 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: male dominated, and they've been scooping up awards. Recently, the 557 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: Master's Photographers Association awarded its sole fellowship to photographer Joe 558 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: to Banzi, and that's such a big deal when you 559 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: consider that out of the sixty five fellowships ever awarded 560 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: by m p A, only eight have gone to women. 561 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: And similarly, Lisa Visser was awarded the British Professional Photographer 562 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: of a Year or in two thousand and eight. So 563 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean there, you know, obviously like women are doing 564 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: very well at their jobs and climbing up through the ranks, 565 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: but it seems like maybe it's just we're catching up 566 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: from such a long legacy and by we I mean 567 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: female photographers, not myself, right, I mean, I'll take pictures 568 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: in my iPhone. But um, there have been a lot 569 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: of sources, not just this British Journal of Photography, uh piece, 570 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: but a lot of other areas on the Internet are 571 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: talking about how digital photography, the ease of use, has 572 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: made it possible for more women to get into photography, 573 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: and that makes my eyes twitch. Um. There was one 574 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: comment on a blog I read where this man who 575 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: was like, look, you know, I'm I'm young, and i 576 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of experience, but I'm just saying 577 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: that maybe from the early days of photography, where cameras 578 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: were highly technical and it was difficult, maybe women just 579 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: weren't interested. And now that things are digital, women are 580 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: interested because they just want to take pictures of their kids. 581 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: And I mean I pushed my computer out the window 582 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: after I read that, But that digital photography discussion is 583 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: something that's going on, and I think, knowing some of 584 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: the amazing female photographers that I do, I think that's crap. 585 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean again that it brings it does 586 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: bring up I mean, that's kind of not so benevolent 587 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: sexism saying that since it's easier now women want to 588 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: do that, and I feel like we could do and listeners, 589 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: if you have an idea of how we could do this. 590 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: I think we could do a whole episode on Instagram 591 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: because because it is so female dominated, women love it 592 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: and it is becoming this huge social media force. Um, 593 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: and I think it would be interested interesting to to 594 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: look into that more. But yeah, I mean I arguments 595 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: like that make me cringe that oh now we're now 596 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: we're interested just because it's simple men, you enjoy ease 597 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: of use as well and a good user experience. Okay, 598 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: So anyway, I want to get riled up here. Um. 599 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: But I hope that we have photo bographers listening. And again, 600 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: I know that there were so many notable women behind 601 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: the camera that we did not have time to talk about. 602 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: Hopefully I can do like a big blog round up maybe. Unfortunately, 603 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: the challenging thing about setting up galleries for photography to 604 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: show women's work is copyright issues, and we ain't going 605 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: to violate them. But I will do my best to 606 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: try to find um pictures that we can show of 607 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: these women's incredible work. And we haven't even talked very 608 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: much too about younger contemporary women who were climbing through 609 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: the ranks as well. So yeah, if you know any 610 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 1: of that, please give us a shout yeah, and shout 611 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: out to photographer Lizzie if she's listening to this podcast, 612 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: your photos are amazing. And Melissa Golden, if you're listening, 613 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: what up and all the all the all the photographers 614 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: out there. Send us emails though mom Stuff at Discovery 615 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: dot Com'll be curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this, 616 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: And of course you can find us on Facebook if 617 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: you'd like to send us a message that way, or 618 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff Podcasts. And before we get 619 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: to a couple of your letters, let's take a quick break, Caroline, 620 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: and then we'll come back back to own letters. I 621 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: have one here from Madeline talking about cleanliness in sane 622 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: sex households. She says, I totally agree that men and 623 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: women don't have innate differences in cleanliness, just culturally impose differences. 624 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: I am a bisexual woman, and I've been in monogamous 625 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: relationships with men and women. In my experience, there's just 626 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: as much variation within men and women in terms of 627 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: how clean people are. I have been with clean men, 628 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: filthy men, clean women, filthy women, et cetera. However, in 629 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: my relationships with the opposite sex, there has been that 630 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: unspoken assumption that I will be cleaning up. This can 631 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: easily be remedied by dividing chores and letting your boyfriend 632 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: doud whatever do his chores in his own time. With 633 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,359 Speaker 1: my same sex relationships, toward delegation has been smoother since 634 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: we have both been trained to constantly be thinking about 635 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: how we look. Luckily, my fiance and wife to be 636 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: is in the healthy middle ground of the slab O 637 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: c D continuum. Congratulations, Medaline, and thank you well. I've 638 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: got an email here from someone who would like to 639 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: remain anonymous because she's writing in about her lady a Plasti. 640 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: She writes, I had a laby of plassy at the 641 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: age of fifteen and dramatically changed my life for the better. 642 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: I was born with an enlarged labia minora that hung 643 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: out of my vagina, and it never bothered me until 644 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: dreatted puberty hit. The skin got longer and larger and 645 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: would rub on the inside of my underwear and become irritated. 646 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: So I got to the point to where I could 647 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: no longer do any vigorous exercise or were pants that 648 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: were tighter than sweatpants. Noticing a drastic change in my life, 649 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: my mother asked me what was going on, and I 650 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: finally admitted my problem and she took me to the 651 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: gyna collegist. I was boked for my lady of plassy 652 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: soon after, and was deeply satisfied with results. I understand 653 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: that most women who go through this surgery do it 654 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: simply for cosmetic reasons, but I thought you should know 655 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: that some of us out there have on it out 656 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: of necessity. We don't just talk about it because it 657 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: can be quite embarrassing and require us a long backstory 658 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: about our misfit vaginas. I certainly don't share this at 659 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: parties or even with my closest friends. However, the anonymity 660 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: of the Internet has inspired me to share my surgery 661 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: story to let you know that I wasn't trying to 662 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: please some man. I was only horrified by the prospect 663 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: of wearing sweatpants and walking like an old lady or 664 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: the rest of my life. So thanks for sharing, because 665 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: I think that you know. It's stories like these that 666 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: are important to help drive home the point that every 667 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: vagina is a little bit different and with that song. 668 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: Thank you, Caroline. Send us to your emails Mom Stuff 669 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. You can also Facebook us or 670 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. You can also follow 671 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: us while you're at it on Tumbler where it's stuff 672 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com. And we're 673 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: now on YouTube. You can watch us. That's right. Go 674 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: to YouTube dot com slash stuff mom Ever told You 675 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: and click subscribe if you don't mind, and watch us. 676 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: We're coming at you three times a week over there, 677 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: and if you'd like to, you can still visit our 678 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: website too. It's how stuff Works dot com for more 679 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how 680 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com