Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and, in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast,
Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first like creating proven,
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel, from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
Speaker 1: for every hunt. First Light, go farther, stay longer. All right, buddy,
Speaker 1: we have we have such an interesting guest today that
Speaker 1: we're gonna skip all the normal juvenile bullshit we talked
Speaker 1: about on top, thank goodness. Yeah, and he's like, I'm out.
Speaker 1: I'm believing now. This is my kind of podcast. Actually,
Speaker 1: gonna skip all the juvenile all the things about a
Speaker 1: guy that wrote in all this stuff about falling into
Speaker 1: a pit toilet, what have you, tough meat, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That made waves, though, that pit toilet trying to get
Speaker 1: punt gun shells manufactured. Like none of that, none of that.
Speaker 1: The special guests I'm talking about is Denny J Seymour
Speaker 1: Ph d who, Danny, I'm gonna tell you how I
Speaker 1: know about you. I'M gonna tee it up in two ways.
Speaker 1: All Right, uh, now and then it's something will happen
Speaker 1: in the news and five, six, ten people will all
Speaker 1: send me the same article. Okay, Um, the article about
Speaker 1: the discovery of a battle site, of a fight, a
Speaker 1: skirmish Um from the mid fif hundreds in southern Arizona
Speaker 1: between the members of the Coronado Expedition in native tribes
Speaker 1: in the area. Uh, a lot of my friends thought
Speaker 1: that would tickle my fancy and I read the article
Speaker 1: and I sent it to Krin and I said we
Speaker 1: need to find this person. I thought you'd say no
Speaker 1: for some reason. You know what? I thought you'd say
Speaker 1: no because you're being so secrety in the article. That's
Speaker 1: how we archaeologists are to protect the sites. But then,
Speaker 1: you know, then we talked and it was good. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm still in the middle of research and normally I
Speaker 1: don't divulge until I'm done. So normally it would be
Speaker 1: five years into the project at least before I would
Speaker 1: tell anyone other than the crew about what we found. When? Well,
Speaker 1: in this case we did because we needed to raise
Speaker 1: money for the documentary film and also research. So uh,
Speaker 1: so we decided to go ahead and announce it sooner,
Speaker 1: and so with that comes a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: awareness and people say, Oh, you need to make sure
Speaker 1: people are not following you to the site. Well, so
Speaker 1: far nobody's done that, but you've still kept it under wraps.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people don't know where it is yet, except
Speaker 1: for the crew, and they're scorning the secrecy. I mean,
Speaker 1: our guys will find out a challenge. You won't be
Speaker 1: done recording this and they'll be they're digging around. Well,
Speaker 1: if you come you have to help dig. So so
Speaker 1: here's the way I want to set up. So someone
Speaker 1: might be sitting there and we've teased this episode on
Speaker 1: previous podcast episodes, but I'm gonna set up and then
Speaker 1: you're gonna you can, you can take off and run on.
Speaker 1: I set up to the best my ability. Um, why
Speaker 1: I'm interested in the Coronado expedition, and it has to
Speaker 1: do with and I want and I want you to
Speaker 1: link this all together. I learned about the Coronado expedition
Speaker 1: when I was reading about what I view to be
Speaker 1: kind of like perhaps the craziest story in early American history,
Speaker 1: which is the saga of Kabayza Day Vaca. Yep, Cabeza,
Speaker 1: day Vaca. What year was at the net Navarrez expedition? Yeah, thirties, early.
Speaker 1: This guy goes up a lot of hundreds of them, Spaniards,
Speaker 1: going land in Florida and eventually getting a shipwreck get
Speaker 1: killed off. Bad things happened to him, to the point
Speaker 1: where three of these guys walk. Four of them walk
Speaker 1: over the course of years, spending time in captivity with tribes,
Speaker 1: spending time with tribes thinking that they're sort of like
Speaker 1: healers and semi deities. They're eating milkshakes made out of
Speaker 1: people's ashes and they walk all the way to Mexico.
Speaker 1: It's like becomes slaves, but at one point Cabas Day
Speaker 1: VOCA becomes the first European to lay eyes on a Buffalo,
Speaker 1: probably around Austin or Dallas Texas. That's why that was
Speaker 1: my intersection with him, because I was researching that subject.
Speaker 1: That led me to some passages from the coronado expedition
Speaker 1: where they make it up into Kansas Um and they're
Speaker 1: describing not only the hunters they encounter and and out
Speaker 1: of the Coronado expedition comes the only reference to something
Speaker 1: that I've ever read in my entire life. They describe people,
Speaker 1: they describe buffalo hunters who are skinning buffalo and sharping
Speaker 1: their flint knives on their teeth. I've never read that anywhere,
Speaker 1: and he describes the the down wind end of a lake,
Speaker 1: the bank being formed by just bones of stuff that
Speaker 1: would drown or whatever in the lake and wind up
Speaker 1: being there or like various members of that expedition. And
Speaker 1: that's really as much as I knew about the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I didn't know where they were, but I remember being
Speaker 1: shocked by the fact the Coronado was on the American
Speaker 1: Great Plains two and forty years prior to Lewis and Clark,
Speaker 1: which should be the difference between us standing here now
Speaker 1: and the French and Indian war. That really puts it
Speaker 1: in perspective, doesn't and what in the hell right were
Speaker 1: they doing up there exactly? So your job now is
Speaker 1: to Um like what were they doing up there and,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind like a little bit, make the
Speaker 1: connection between the how the conquissator rumor mill spins like
Speaker 1: how cobs a vodka could starve his way across America.
Speaker 1: And somehow this turns into like Oh yeah, but cities
Speaker 1: of gold old if I had just gone another day's
Speaker 1: journey to the blank. You know well. You know the
Speaker 1: connection between Caves Devaka and the three people with him
Speaker 1: and the Cornado expedition is that when they got back
Speaker 1: they had this incredible story to tell and they had
Speaker 1: heard of people to the north who had cotton and
Speaker 1: multi story buildings and metal bells and so on, and
Speaker 1: there were already rumors in European society and also in uh,
Speaker 1: the Mexico area and so on, about seven cities and
Speaker 1: this the, you know, the origin place of the Aztecs.
Speaker 1: And then in UM UM in European society there was
Speaker 1: there were stories about places of riches and so on.
Speaker 1: CABSIVACA never actually said there was gold or didn't expect
Speaker 1: that there would be uh, but there were rumors in
Speaker 1: you know how rumors developed, because basically they had found gold,
Speaker 1: lots of it, in the Inca area and in the
Speaker 1: Aztec area, in central Mexico and in Peru, and so
Speaker 1: they kind of expected that there would be riches elsewhere
Speaker 1: on the continent. So it really wasn't that unexpected that
Speaker 1: that kind of imagination would start going wild and that
Speaker 1: rumors would start. Now a stave on the black more
Speaker 1: slave at the time was with Kabasi DEVACA and he
Speaker 1: was the one that was selected. Apparently he was freed
Speaker 1: before going uh. He was selected to lead FRA Marcos
Speaker 1: Deniz in thirty nine north to do a reconnaissance and
Speaker 1: uh Coronado himself, escus de Coronado, was responsible for outfitting him,
Speaker 1: and the idea is he was supposed to go ahead
Speaker 1: and see what was up there and see if the
Speaker 1: rumors about gold in the seven cities of ce blow
Speaker 1: and so on, we're true. Can you tell you what
Speaker 1: that what that seven cities of Sebla? You encountered that?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, there were rumors of seven
Speaker 1: cities and of course seven is important in the Christian
Speaker 1: religion for a variety of reasons. Um and Um, the
Speaker 1: Aztecs and others had stories from ancient times about having
Speaker 1: originated from the North uh, and so everybody had a
Speaker 1: little piece of, you know, the rumor, the story that
Speaker 1: the imaginative myth to put together. And so basically it
Speaker 1: was connected to Sibila or Zuni. Uh. They first went
Speaker 1: to Howieku, which is among the Zuni Pueblos uh, and
Speaker 1: that's where they thought it was. So that was the focus.
Speaker 1: So they got there and realized there was no gold
Speaker 1: and then they kept pursuing it elsewhere. They were looking
Speaker 1: for go all they were looking for other things as well,
Speaker 1: and they well, they say looking for I mean they
Speaker 1: were fixing to go take it. Yes, they were just
Speaker 1: like in central Mexico and in UH, South America. But see,
Speaker 1: they weren't just looking for gold either. So they were
Speaker 1: looking for high enough and native population, one so that
Speaker 1: they could convert them. That's what the priests wanted to
Speaker 1: do and that was kind of one of the things
Speaker 1: that they were charged with. But they wanted enough, high
Speaker 1: enough native population that they could exploit them for tribute.
Speaker 1: That's how they were going to get rich and they
Speaker 1: were going to set up in Comiendas, and that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that the expedition was considered a failure,
Speaker 1: because there weren't enough high enough densities of natives for
Speaker 1: all of the high ranking Spaniards who went along to
Speaker 1: have an in Comienda have um a large enough area
Speaker 1: with high enough native population that could support them with
Speaker 1: tribute payments and so on. A another reason, apparently, is
Speaker 1: they thought that this was connected, that are part of
Speaker 1: the world was connected to Asians, so they hoped to
Speaker 1: find a route through so they could establish markets there.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that people have been focusing
Speaker 1: for ages on the gold aspect. So historians more recently
Speaker 1: have been saying, well, it's not really the gold they
Speaker 1: were after, but in fact our main site, the first
Speaker 1: site we found, is at a major gold source. So
Speaker 1: the people who got left behind what the first site
Speaker 1: we found is not only a battle site but it
Speaker 1: was a it's called the villa of San Hieronimo and
Speaker 1: it was the third rendition of that where they left
Speaker 1: some of the Spaniards behind as a supply base, but
Speaker 1: also a villa in Spanish is town, and so basically
Speaker 1: it was the formation of a town and interestingly it's
Speaker 1: at a gold source. It's at one of the best
Speaker 1: gold sources in the area. Can you remember to talk
Speaker 1: a bit about how sadistic the people that ran that? Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll remember. If I don't remember, remind me. But here's
Speaker 1: one more thing about the gold. It turns out that
Speaker 1: we have the satellite of other Coronado artifacts around. They're
Speaker 1: not really sites, they're isolated things so far, but two
Speaker 1: of them are at other locations where gold was so
Speaker 1: the people that got left behind me have actually got
Speaker 1: more gold out of this area than the people who
Speaker 1: went forward, and they were resentful that they got left
Speaker 1: behind because they wanted to go and and find all
Speaker 1: these riches and have all this success and be part
Speaker 1: of the exploration, the adventure and so on. But they
Speaker 1: were working gold deposits. So there was also a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff in their correspondence they called they called buffalo
Speaker 1: cattle or Bison. They call them cattle, and they would
Speaker 1: throw out that there could be they would throw out
Speaker 1: that that could be like an industry of exploitation. In fact,
Speaker 1: Juanharamo in his account mentioned that and uh talked about
Speaker 1: how you could get back to, uh, new Spain, back
Speaker 1: and forth via a shorter route to exploit that as
Speaker 1: a resource, and that is what he thought was the
Speaker 1: most valuable resource in the area, other than all of
Speaker 1: these other things that I just mentioned. Yeah, they just
Speaker 1: encountered staggering numbers of them. Yes, so how many? How many?
Speaker 1: Would it makes sense, before we get too far into
Speaker 1: the actual coronado expedition, just to back up, just to
Speaker 1: talk about like the Vera Cruz and like Spanish settlements
Speaker 1: down in Mexico and just really established that before we
Speaker 1: move north. Uh. Yeah, you mentioned that they had been
Speaker 1: striking it rich here and there. Oh, sure. So, of course,
Speaker 1: when Cortez came into the Mexico area, he actually established
Speaker 1: downsite or via at Vera Cruz and use that as
Speaker 1: a base. And what he did, and sorry, what year
Speaker 1: was that? That was fifteen. I can't remember exactly. Fifteen,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, something like that. Um. So, he established a
Speaker 1: town site and established a town council and everything. And
Speaker 1: the reason he did that, did that was that he
Speaker 1: could separate himself from his sponsor in Cuba, and that way, uh,
Speaker 1: they voted him as the leader and so on, and he,
Speaker 1: as a result, was able to uh, correspond directly with
Speaker 1: the king, and so that's how he was able. I
Speaker 1: mean it was a political move which was really kind
Speaker 1: of interesting exactly. and Uh so it worked out really
Speaker 1: well for him and it didn't work out well for
Speaker 1: the natives that were in the area. But bottom line
Speaker 1: is that was like incredibly rich. And you know, you
Speaker 1: mentioned before about people being where did this rumor come
Speaker 1: from and so on. Well, think about it. The first
Speaker 1: encounters in the central Mexico area, it was so rich.
Speaker 1: People made I mean they were like billionaires all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, overnight, you know, I mean within a few
Speaker 1: months just from ransack and the gold out of I
Speaker 1: mean it was just incredible. And also in Peru, the
Speaker 1: Incan Empire, and they were like taking finished gold, though
Speaker 1: they weren't taken. I mean I'm sure they probably got
Speaker 1: into mining, but they were like seizing, like taking gold
Speaker 1: that had already been used to form form into totems
Speaker 1: and monetary units. And well, that is true. So, first
Speaker 1: of all, gold wasn't the only thing they got. There
Speaker 1: was a lot of silver and other other items of value.
Speaker 1: But with respect to the gold, yeah, they had idols.
Speaker 1: They had religious idol. It shouldn't use the word idols
Speaker 1: because that's a Catholic way of looking at uh, you know,
Speaker 1: native uh sacred objects and so on. But basically they
Speaker 1: took there were rooms that were plastered with gold and
Speaker 1: they pulled that off. They took Um images uh that
Speaker 1: we would call saints today in the Catholic religion. They
Speaker 1: took them out of the rooms and pyramids and so
Speaker 1: on and melted those down. But they also had people
Speaker 1: uh mining, and you know, even Columbus did that, uh,
Speaker 1: and we see images of Um, you know, the miners
Speaker 1: working and so on and uh, there's actually one image
Speaker 1: that was created. That shows UH and uprising by natives
Speaker 1: pouring liquid gold down to Spaniards through, I mean because
Speaker 1: and and that's that's brutal. But the fact is is
Speaker 1: they were chopping off people's hands and noses down there,
Speaker 1: uh for not either not producing enough gold or for
Speaker 1: rising up, or for anything that they thought of as minor.
Speaker 1: The amount of body like when you get into the
Speaker 1: corn atole that tradition, the amount of body parts getting
Speaker 1: removed from people as punishments is just staggering. It is,
Speaker 1: it really is. And normally I thought that most of
Speaker 1: that happened down south, meaning south of the border, the
Speaker 1: current border, uh, when via Um, you know, when Cortes
Speaker 1: and Columbus and so on, we're doing their thing, and
Speaker 1: also in South America. But it's amazing how much of
Speaker 1: it occurred up here. And the thing that surprised me
Speaker 1: is that on our site it actually occurred. Now that
Speaker 1: we know where this Um site is. That's mentioned in
Speaker 1: the documents and we know where it is. It's amongst
Speaker 1: the Atham uh formerly known some of some authom are
Speaker 1: called Pema. They were all called Pima or various other
Speaker 1: names in the past. But Um, I work with people
Speaker 1: there near to son at San Javier, the San Javier
Speaker 1: district of the tone of octom nation, and they are
Speaker 1: the direct descendants of the people who met Coronado at
Speaker 1: this site. And when I told them about this, it
Speaker 1: was really difficult for me to tell them, because how
Speaker 1: do you tell somebody that their ancestors were treated so poorly?
Speaker 1: But it's also, Um, uh, empowering in a way, uh,
Speaker 1: because it's a way for them to understand some of
Speaker 1: the trauma that they now experience and where that comes from.
Speaker 1: It has much greater depth than even they thought, perhaps
Speaker 1: because nobody thought that Coronado actually had much of an
Speaker 1: encounter with the autum in southern Arizona. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a backwater area that you don't read about it if
Speaker 1: you read coronado documents. Basically they just passed through their stories.
Speaker 1: They always pretty much go up to sea blowers any
Speaker 1: end and skipped this whole area. Well, it turns out
Speaker 1: that the area where this site is, this first site
Speaker 1: I found, is one of the most important coronado sites and,
Speaker 1: like I said, it's called the Vo San Hieronimo and
Speaker 1: the atom. We're able to successfully repel the Spaniards. So
Speaker 1: it really is the first successful native American rebellion in
Speaker 1: the continental us, because they didn't come back. The Spaniards
Speaker 1: didn't come back for a hundred and forty years. That
Speaker 1: was enough time. Do you thought you really whooped them?
Speaker 1: For sure. I mean think about it. They came and
Speaker 1: we ran them off and now they're gone. Well, and
Speaker 1: it was only twelve years for the Pueblo revolt, which
Speaker 1: is considered the most successful one up to this point. So,
Speaker 1: but the amount of pride, like the Atham are considered
Speaker 1: later in time, they're discussed as being peaceful and docile,
Speaker 1: and I've always asked my auth and friends, do you
Speaker 1: think that's because a colonialism? The answers I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: this shows that. My other research that shows that they
Speaker 1: were the best warriors in the sixteen, eighties and nineties
Speaker 1: and so on, shows that the extended even deeper in time.
Speaker 1: So they take incredible pride in knowing that their ancestors
Speaker 1: were phenomenal warriors, the best warriors in the region. They
Speaker 1: were respected by they were feared by the Apache in
Speaker 1: the sixteen, eighties and nineties. So, uh, the thing I
Speaker 1: didn't realize until I was reading a book about Coronado recently. Um,
Speaker 1: I've never quite put it together that these these people
Speaker 1: that we call concussed doors were kind of like semi freelance,
Speaker 1: like swashbucklers or pirates, right, like they had they reported
Speaker 1: to the king, but they had personal stuff to gain.
Speaker 1: It's not like, if you imagine the US military, right
Speaker 1: goes and does some action, it's entirely in service of
Speaker 1: the government. Meaning if you go and sack Saddam Hussein's palace,
Speaker 1: you don't keep half the ship and send half of
Speaker 1: it right, you don't get okay, you guys will divvy
Speaker 1: it up. You guys keep half, the government keeps half. Well,
Speaker 1: the Spanish, Spanish government didn't keep half, they kept a fifth.
Speaker 1: That's so. But these guys were like highly incentivized. Right,
Speaker 1: they were, but understand that. First of all, they were
Speaker 1: incentivized and that's one reason you have the muster rule
Speaker 1: at the beginning, and that's one reason why, uh, they
Speaker 1: put so many horses, livestock, armor, weapons, people into it.
Speaker 1: Because what is that? What is sorry, what is that
Speaker 1: word that you use? Muster roll. So basically it's everybody
Speaker 1: lined up and said what they what they were going
Speaker 1: to bring along. Okay, and and that got recorded by
Speaker 1: a scribe and the idea was that they were buying
Speaker 1: in in this sense. So, in other words, if they're investing,
Speaker 1: they're investing. So if they had another uh, you know,
Speaker 1: Aztec or Incan type discovery, they would have uh partition
Speaker 1: the find the wealth based on what they contributed. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it really was an investment. Yeah, like Hey, we're
Speaker 1: gonna ride up north see what we can sack and
Speaker 1: locate and find an exploit and develop. And who wants
Speaker 1: in and what are you willing to kick in on
Speaker 1: putting this trip together? Well, that's a somewhat irreverend, reverend,
Speaker 1: crude way to say it, but that's really what it
Speaker 1: came down to. But I don't know, they draped it
Speaker 1: in okay, okay, I don't want to go down the
Speaker 1: revisionist path, right, okay, I'm interested in context. They draped
Speaker 1: it in God and country. However, I think it was
Speaker 1: a much thinner with the concussed the doors, and you
Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm if you don't agree with this.
Speaker 1: I think the CONQUISS the doors there was a much
Speaker 1: thinner veneer than there were with other godden country actions
Speaker 1: that happened on the continent years later, like, uh, right now,
Speaker 1: with our oil and gas pursuits in other countries. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think a thinner veneer. Yeah. So, so the thing
Speaker 1: is keep in mind that we can look at it
Speaker 1: that way because we have years between us and them, right.
Speaker 1: But understand, and this is really important to understand, and
Speaker 1: I'm not being an apologist by any means, but they
Speaker 1: were following the rules. Okay, so they were charged by
Speaker 1: the Viceroy and the King to go and convert people.
Speaker 1: They wanted to convert all the natives Catholicism, and also
Speaker 1: the idea was to expand the territory that was under
Speaker 1: the king's charge. Okay, so the expand the Spanish empire.
Speaker 1: So those really were their goals. And in the meantime,
Speaker 1: since it was privately funded, they wanted to get returned
Speaker 1: for their investment and then, of course, the crown would
Speaker 1: get a percentage of that. But they were following the
Speaker 1: rules the whole time. Okay, so part of the rules.
Speaker 1: and well, I mean, but then allow them got put
Speaker 1: on trial later, they did, but only one got actually convicted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the reason he did is because he didn't follow
Speaker 1: the rules. So when they went into a native village,
Speaker 1: they read the requirement, the request or whatever, and it
Speaker 1: had a specific set of statements, that part of which
Speaker 1: are and I can read a little bit if you want,
Speaker 1: but basically, uh, you need to acquiesce to our desires,
Speaker 1: you have to accept our king, our pope and our
Speaker 1: way of life and you have to do what we
Speaker 1: want you to do, including giving tribute, and if you don't,
Speaker 1: then we're gonna come and take your wives and daughters,
Speaker 1: we're gonna kill you, we're gonna Enslave you and it's
Speaker 1: all your fault. That's basically what it says. And so,
Speaker 1: first of all, they probably didn't fully understand. But but
Speaker 1: you forgot the promise, Um, your problems with your enemies
Speaker 1: will be over. Yeah, yes, exactly, so they so what
Speaker 1: they promised was that they would be converted, they would
Speaker 1: be protected against their enemies and so on. UH, and
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting something there too, but bottom line is, uh,
Speaker 1: the trade off wasn't uh favorable at all to the natives.
Speaker 1: They were doing fine how they were, but the Spaniards
Speaker 1: wanted to slip themselves in this higher level echelon, just
Speaker 1: like pretty much did, and in Mexico, for example. Um,
Speaker 1: and they took Montezuma captive and kind of used him
Speaker 1: to rule the people for a while and to control
Speaker 1: it so they could get as much as they want
Speaker 1: and basically as a hostage. And they tried that in
Speaker 1: the Sibyl area and it didn't work. For actually in
Speaker 1: the in the Albuquerque area, and it didn't work too well. Uh,
Speaker 1: but they they felt that they were following the rules.
Speaker 1: And the one guy that got convicted, Um, he didn't
Speaker 1: follow the rules. Like, for example, uh, he suggested that
Speaker 1: the Pueblo they had a siege and they suggest he
Speaker 1: suggested that the people surrender and he promised them, uh,
Speaker 1: favorable passage, in other words, he wasn't gonna Kill Them All. Well,
Speaker 1: he ended up burning something like a hundred of them
Speaker 1: at the stake and stabbing lancing. He made them drive
Speaker 1: the I think he made them place their own stakes.
Speaker 1: I don't remember for sure. Them Alive. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty nasty, but that's why he was that's
Speaker 1: why he was the only one that got Um, basically jailed.
Speaker 1: In essence, it really wasn't jail because he got a
Speaker 1: pretty light sentence. Yeah, but how many people are? How
Speaker 1: many people are on this how many people are on
Speaker 1: this group of folks that end up like like the
Speaker 1: group that ends up winding up in Kansas and you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: so through Texas and Kansas. Like what kind of what
Speaker 1: kind of like what's this look like coming across the landscape? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the really interesting thing about this. The latest numbers
Speaker 1: historians have come up with is about people, maybe three hundred,
Speaker 1: fifty or four hundred Europe Spaniards, you know, Europeans, uh,
Speaker 1: and then their support people, slaves and domestic servants, and
Speaker 1: then hundred or so, uh, native Mexican Indians. Okay, Native Mexicans.
Speaker 1: So Uh. So basically two thousand hundred people going across
Speaker 1: the landscape, which is huge. I mean it's just but
Speaker 1: what they think? Um, it looks like in the documents that,
Speaker 1: if you read them a certain way and very carefully,
Speaker 1: it actually says that first they sent the advance guard
Speaker 1: ahead with Coronado. That included, I think it was eighty
Speaker 1: or so Spaniards and their support people, including some native Mexicans,
Speaker 1: and then the second group came two weeks later so
Speaker 1: that water and pasture wouldn't run out, and so they
Speaker 1: wouldn't overrun native communities, but they also had a bunch
Speaker 1: of captains and it looks like they were broken up
Speaker 1: into smaller groups. And we have now. Two years ago
Speaker 1: there were no core no coronado sites between Sinaloa, Kul
Speaker 1: con and so on and UH Sibila. Now I have
Speaker 1: four in southern Arizona and you just saw US real
Speaker 1: quick where those the two sizes that you just mentioned
Speaker 1: are in like in current day town terms in the US.
Speaker 1: So one of them is kind of buy no gallus
Speaker 1: south of Tucson, Arizona, on the Santa Cruz River, which
Speaker 1: is west of where everybody thinks the route came up.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so let me go over there first and
Speaker 1: then remind me. So everybody, for years, most like of
Speaker 1: historians and archaeologists, have thought that Coronado came up the
Speaker 1: Sonora River in Mexico and then up the San Pedro,
Speaker 1: down the San Pedro River in southern Arizona before turning northeast.
Speaker 1: Imagine that route being kind of the center of a
Speaker 1: page or something. Go to the left or to the West. Um,
Speaker 1: and the first site we found is on the Santa
Speaker 1: Cruz River to the West. The second site not the
Speaker 1: second one we found, but the second on the trail
Speaker 1: is on an intervening drainage. So we have two sites
Speaker 1: now to the west of that center line of the
Speaker 1: page where the San Pedro and Sonora rivers are. And
Speaker 1: then you go further east southeast, actually still all in
Speaker 1: the United States, still in Arizona, and there's two sites
Speaker 1: in the San Bernardino Valley, which is the farthest, farthest
Speaker 1: Um southeast you can go and still be in Arizona.
Speaker 1: So my job is to try to figure out how
Speaker 1: do those fit? And right now we're at the point
Speaker 1: of Um intersecting with the San Pedro River. So the
Speaker 1: question is, did they go north, did they go south
Speaker 1: or did they go east? And I don't know yet.
Speaker 1: I'm in the process of figuring that out. That's the
Speaker 1: next discovery we're going to make. But now we have
Speaker 1: four sites uh in an area where we had none
Speaker 1: uh at the beginning of covid basically, how far, how
Speaker 1: far is? How far apart are those? Those, the first
Speaker 1: one and the ones way to the east, as the
Speaker 1: crow flies, are about a hundred miles apart. But they
Speaker 1: went like you know, zig zag and stuff, so would
Speaker 1: be you know many days in between. So Um, you
Speaker 1: know one thing we forgot to talk about when we
Speaker 1: were talking about many people. Can you describe the amount
Speaker 1: of livestock these guys carried with them? Yes, exactly. So
Speaker 1: there were something like horses, they had cattle, they had pigs,
Speaker 1: they had sheep. So thousands ahead of livestock. So honestly
Speaker 1: they just have to look insane to people, especially when
Speaker 1: they get to the nomadic hunters and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden who you know, had never encountered us, to all
Speaker 1: a sudden look and be like what do we have here? Well, UH,
Speaker 1: a friend of mine has commented that. You know, it
Speaker 1: would be like during the civil war. You'd have natives
Speaker 1: sitting on these UH hillsides watching this, you know, parade
Speaker 1: go by, but you know it was broken probably into
Speaker 1: distinct groups moving across the landscape. But one of the
Speaker 1: ways that I've been able to find some of these
Speaker 1: sites is think about it, and people have thought about
Speaker 1: this before, but you gotta have a reliable source, a huge,
Speaker 1: reliable source of water and pasture right because if you
Speaker 1: don't stop and allow your livestock to eat every couple
Speaker 1: of days of arding to ranchers they're gonna fall over.
Speaker 1: You just can't go that fart now. They did. They
Speaker 1: did mistreat their animals, for sure. Many of them died
Speaker 1: along the way, but bottom line is the kinds of
Speaker 1: water sources that I need to look for that they
Speaker 1: would have need to have found to survive are in
Speaker 1: limited areas, although there's enough of them that it could
Speaker 1: take me years to find more sites. I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's pretty phenomenal that we have four now and we're
Speaker 1: on the verge of finding the fifth. But do people still,
Speaker 1: do your peers still think you're barking up the round tree? Um?
Speaker 1: Everybody who is a professional archaeologist and most historians agree
Speaker 1: that I have Coronado. There's no question. We have more
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads, which your diagnostic a coronado and go out
Speaker 1: long before the next European expedition or or big group
Speaker 1: of people is in the area. We have more of
Speaker 1: those than any other Coronado site known. Okay, so the
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads across the bow eraheads, we have seventy two
Speaker 1: or something now. So that's the end to ssputable. We
Speaker 1: have other coronado artifacts, including the cannon. So we have
Speaker 1: coronado there's no question what they're questioning without actually seeing
Speaker 1: the data. Is kind of the problem I have with
Speaker 1: it is that, uh, they're questioning how I'm putting the
Speaker 1: route together. And as an archaeologist, I okay, I have
Speaker 1: four sights, so you connect the dots and if I
Speaker 1: can connect those with a trail, well that's one trail.
Speaker 1: But what they don't understand is I am trying to
Speaker 1: consider every option available as to how the route might
Speaker 1: have gone. So I'm backing up with the documentary record
Speaker 1: and geography and stuff and I'm plotting it out and
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is every single option of
Speaker 1: the way they could go, and then I'm checking those
Speaker 1: areas on the ground. And so basically right now, like
Speaker 1: I said, I'm at the San Pedro. Did they go north,
Speaker 1: did they go south through did they go east? And
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer yet, but if they go north,
Speaker 1: that means that we have two trails because it doesn't
Speaker 1: connect with the ones way far southeast in the San
Speaker 1: Bernardino Valley. See, isn't that kind of cool? If they
Speaker 1: don't go north, then that means they probably went east
Speaker 1: and then southeast and it connects to this zigzag trail
Speaker 1: that just goes all over and then goes up, and
Speaker 1: so that's the verse. That's the point I'm at now.
Speaker 1: So the next not the next site. If I find
Speaker 1: the next site where I think it is, then it
Speaker 1: won't answer that question. I'm gonna have to find one
Speaker 1: more to figure out whether they went north, because we
Speaker 1: know where the water was on the surface and that's
Speaker 1: likely where they can't. I wanna talk about like how
Speaker 1: you find this stuff and what you're looking for and
Speaker 1: sort of like what's there, and I have a million
Speaker 1: questions about that. But let's do a quick feel mine,
Speaker 1: a quick walk through on what happened to the expedition.
Speaker 1: Like they they get up to the seven cities of old,
Speaker 1: which are seven cities of that's why it winds up
Speaker 1: being what like six cities of not gold, and then
Speaker 1: they get let on this wild goose chase. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: one tactic was for natives to try to push the
Speaker 1: people onto the next place. So when Europeans first to write,
Speaker 1: even when combasative Acca went through native settlements when they
Speaker 1: were walking back to new Spain from Florida, they were
Speaker 1: welcomed at first. There's this continent wide actually it's universal
Speaker 1: throughout the world hospitality. When somebody new comes, if they're
Speaker 1: not war alike, if they're not, you know, hostile, you
Speaker 1: welcome them in, you give them food, you celebrate with
Speaker 1: them and so on, and then you send them on
Speaker 1: your way. And what we know from combasative ACCA is
Speaker 1: that hundreds of people, sometimes from those villages, would go
Speaker 1: along with them until they got to the edge of
Speaker 1: their territor Tory and then they'd stop and then Siva
Speaker 1: could go on from there, and that actually happened on
Speaker 1: the Coronado expedition as well. As some of these people
Speaker 1: would serve as porters, some would just escort them and
Speaker 1: so on. Do you think those folks were getting paid
Speaker 1: or I mean, like, why were they going along? In
Speaker 1: some cases they were kidnapped by the Spaniards. In some
Speaker 1: cases they went along because when when you wanted to
Speaker 1: go a long distance, it helped to go in a
Speaker 1: large group so you didn't get attacked. Uh. And also, uh,
Speaker 1: some of them, like the native Mexicans, were in some
Speaker 1: cases paid. Um. That is kind of an interesting thing,
Speaker 1: because some of them went along because they the native Mexicans,
Speaker 1: because their tribute that they owed the Spaniards was reduced
Speaker 1: or eliminated. That was kind of a payment to the community.
Speaker 1: Some of them were paid exactly Um, some of them
Speaker 1: were paid cash, some of them uh scholars think that
Speaker 1: they were paid in the sense of that they got
Speaker 1: to take slaves or captives amongst the groups that they
Speaker 1: subdued and then they would take those as captive and
Speaker 1: that would raise their status within their communities, one because
Speaker 1: they had taken them in warfare and secondly because, uh
Speaker 1: then they would uh sacrifice them ceremonially and that was
Speaker 1: how they gained status and that was also part of
Speaker 1: their their culture and so on. So there's a whole
Speaker 1: range of reasons why native Mexicans went along, but it
Speaker 1: seems that when you get up here into southern Arizona,
Speaker 1: uh what like, there were two hundred principles that went
Speaker 1: along with Marcos Diniza, for for example, in sixty nine,
Speaker 1: and they wanted to go to help them carry stuff,
Speaker 1: but also they wanted to go up to see Siebla,
Speaker 1: to see Zooni, and they pretty much wanted to go
Speaker 1: with a group. It would be an exciting thing. I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of why one of the reasons all
Speaker 1: these Spaniards went to. I mean, think about it. It's
Speaker 1: an adventure, you know. Uh, it would have been an adventure.
Speaker 1: And maybe in the first two hundred miles. And then
Speaker 1: can you imagine the drudgery of just knowing that you
Speaker 1: can't turn back on your own because it's too dangerous? Uh,
Speaker 1: and you get lost, but you have to keep going forward.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine waking up every morning after sleeping on
Speaker 1: a rock on your back all night and realizing, what
Speaker 1: did I get myself into? You know? Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: next thing you know you're in Kansas. Oh, I know, incredible,
Speaker 1: fighting the whole way. And yes, you and I think
Speaker 1: and have these thoughts, but I don't know if they
Speaker 1: had those thoughts because maybe they slept on a rock,
Speaker 1: you know, every day of their lives, just like we do.
Speaker 1: Have people dieing left and right to you know, right,
Speaker 1: but that was the norm? Right? Well, but not really.
Speaker 1: I mean for some, yes, no question, for the domestic
Speaker 1: servants and slaves and, you know, people like that, for sure,
Speaker 1: but some of these were noblemen. There were some really
Speaker 1: high status people there, and those are the ones that
Speaker 1: mostly went with coronado in his advanced guard. But these were,
Speaker 1: you know people who wore silks most of the time
Speaker 1: and shoes with no souls and stuff. In fact, I
Speaker 1: disagree with one of the historians who claims that they
Speaker 1: would have worn silks on the whole trip. And it's
Speaker 1: like I've walked through that. You can see scratches on
Speaker 1: my arms right now because I was just out earlier
Speaker 1: this week. I mean, I don't wear silks and my
Speaker 1: clothes get ruined, you know. So uh, and I have
Speaker 1: to wear boots with um souls on them so that
Speaker 1: thorns don't go through them and stuff. So they were uh,
Speaker 1: they had a very rude awakening, I think. And think
Speaker 1: about it. They went through in the summer. So they
Speaker 1: went through southern Arizona in June. UH, Marcus Niza was may,
Speaker 1: but June is the hottest month and there's no rain.
Speaker 1: And I went out to the one of the sites,
Speaker 1: the latest one I found in June, about the time
Speaker 1: they would have been there, and it was one of
Speaker 1: the coolest days and I was just about sick from
Speaker 1: the humidity in the heat because I was trying to
Speaker 1: find more evidence of our side. So you know, it's
Speaker 1: but everybody says that it would have been cooler than
Speaker 1: and wetter than and I'm going to research that more
Speaker 1: because I'm not convinced of that. I don't know. We'll
Speaker 1: see um, but you gotta do when you're researching it.
Speaker 1: You gotta put one of them brass helmets on. There
Speaker 1: you go. It's like instant tinfoil. Is that what you suggesting?
Speaker 1: So talking about the wild goose chase, though, because this
Speaker 1: is an interesting story, like it kind of involves like
Speaker 1: a guy says, Um, oh, I saw a bracelet made
Speaker 1: of gold, he had it, and so they take those
Speaker 1: guys captive and like where is the bracelet, and then
Speaker 1: one of them tells them some crazy ass story about
Speaker 1: how they should go to Kansas. That part of the
Speaker 1: story really brings home to me how greedy they were
Speaker 1: at that point, how desperate they were. I mean they
Speaker 1: hear the story about a gold bracelet that was probably hopper,
Speaker 1: who knows what it was, and something else I can't remember,
Speaker 1: and they like pursue this with such dog in this
Speaker 1: it's like they take the guys and put them in
Speaker 1: chains and callers and keep them kidnapped for six months
Speaker 1: in there, you know during the winter, and then end
Speaker 1: up garreting one guy and I mean it just it's
Speaker 1: phenomenal what they do over a stinking little bracelet. But
Speaker 1: they thought that was the key to where they were
Speaker 1: explained garretted, you know, like in a godfather too, I
Speaker 1: think it is, when they killed the guy by just
Speaker 1: putting a cable around his neck and then you twist
Speaker 1: it with a stick or something. So this dude, this
Speaker 1: dude is like, Oh man, the really good stuff is
Speaker 1: like up and you know, out in the Buffalo Land,
Speaker 1: and he they get there and he's like, oh no, no,
Speaker 1: I think about it. It's a little more over that
Speaker 1: way right. Well, eventually they just get fed up, like
Speaker 1: this guy's full of ship and they had some disagreements
Speaker 1: amongst their gods. But here's the fun thing. Some scholars
Speaker 1: about three and maybe growing, think that one of their
Speaker 1: guides was actually trying to take them over to the
Speaker 1: Mississippian area where there are large canoes, large fish, or
Speaker 1: at least alligators, and uh, copper artifacts and other things.
Speaker 1: And so it makes sense. Now. Just here's another aside. UH,
Speaker 1: there's a Texas site known coronado side. It's been known
Speaker 1: for some time, the Jimmy own site. Uh, it looks
Speaker 1: like we may have one on either side of that now,
Speaker 1: so we have a partial trail there. That still needs
Speaker 1: to be proved up, which I will be doing in
Speaker 1: the next couple of years, but that's very exciting because
Speaker 1: the route trajectory of those if they turn out, they
Speaker 1: have artifacts that seem to be Coronado, but we just
Speaker 1: need to prove it up for sure. I'm pretty cautious
Speaker 1: about these types of things. But anyway, if this is
Speaker 1: the case, it does look like what they did was
Speaker 1: really went in a secuity, circuitous type route, not only
Speaker 1: probably to get them lost but also to starve them
Speaker 1: out there, but also it looks like maybe he was
Speaker 1: trying to take them to the Mississippian area where the
Speaker 1: descriptions actually matched. They don't for the Caverra, purposely to
Speaker 1: get them lost and to starve them. The guides were
Speaker 1: doing this too. Just messies like there's an end of
Speaker 1: the guy they garritted, the guy they killed for misinformation,
Speaker 1: is like celebrated right by some of the tribes because
Speaker 1: he got him out. He was it's, you know, the
Speaker 1: like a contemporary interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong, is
Speaker 1: that he was like going to lead him out out
Speaker 1: of the Buffalo planes and lead him out into the
Speaker 1: state planes of Texas and over they at all they
Speaker 1: die out there. Well, and he actually kind of said,
Speaker 1: according to the Spanish, the Spaniards and the one document,
Speaker 1: is that he told the people at Calvera that if
Speaker 1: you don't feed them and their horses, they're already weak
Speaker 1: and you can kill them. And you know, and apparently
Speaker 1: admitted that he was going around about way to get
Speaker 1: lost and stuff. Who knows what's going on because, bottom line,
Speaker 1: there was this rivalry between the guides and we'll never
Speaker 1: know for sure, but I will say that one of
Speaker 1: our sites, two of our sites, in the San Bernardino
Speaker 1: Valley that is such a remote area it's like a moonscape. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's got volcanic rock Malpais, UH, just out in the
Speaker 1: middle of stink and nowhere, and the camp site that
Speaker 1: we have it actually has some incredible rock art, Coronado
Speaker 1: Rock Art. It's very cool, uh, anyway, and and two
Speaker 1: Coronado artifacts and some clearings. So we don't know how
Speaker 1: big a group was there, but it's the first camp,
Speaker 1: actual camp site. The other one's a town site, right,
Speaker 1: and and the other ones are artifacts that we haven't
Speaker 1: identified clearings yet and stuff, but this one has clearings,
Speaker 1: artifacts and rock art and it is in such a
Speaker 1: remote area. One of the guys on the Rock Art
Speaker 1: is reaching out in front of him and it almost
Speaker 1: looks like he's saying to people who might try this route,
Speaker 1: go west to get out of here, this is not
Speaker 1: a good area. I don't know. That's my interpretation. You
Speaker 1: can interpret it, interpret rock art a number of ways,
Speaker 1: but you mean rock you mean you've found rock art
Speaker 1: that was made by people who were accompanying the expedition. Yes, so,
Speaker 1: no one knew this was there till now. Well, Um,
Speaker 1: the rancher knew it was there. And basically what we
Speaker 1: have is a volcanic rock that is weathered and has
Speaker 1: figures pecked into it and one is wearing a hat,
Speaker 1: one is wearing a helmet like hat and I think
Speaker 1: it is a domed hat rather than I'm looking at it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Um, if you look real carefully, I actually do
Speaker 1: a presentation on this, it looks like the guy has
Speaker 1: a beard. He has a gown on that was typical
Speaker 1: of the time. They have pointy shoes on, which was
Speaker 1: typical of the time. UH, they have a collar like
Speaker 1: the the UH callers they used to wear at the time,
Speaker 1: and something else. I forget what up, but anyway, looking
Speaker 1: at it right now, but it's it's we have coronado
Speaker 1: artifacts with it, so you know it. It's pretty darn
Speaker 1: good evidence. Uh. I mean, like one of my volunteers said,
Speaker 1: I said, well, it looks like it is, and he goes, well,
Speaker 1: the rock says it is. Uh. So I want to
Speaker 1: I want to get into how you like ever begin
Speaker 1: to find this stuff. But well, that and too, I
Speaker 1: think what like your work, where the personal passion for
Speaker 1: this project comes from. But let's wrap up. I want to.
Speaker 1: I want to first wrap up the expedition. Okay, they
Speaker 1: go on the wild goose chase, get up into Kansas.
Speaker 1: A subset of them got up into canvas right. So
Speaker 1: in Texas they realize that there's no way that we
Speaker 1: can support this. Many people out here on the plains
Speaker 1: were about ready to starve. There's not enough water. So
Speaker 1: they send most of the people back to Albuquerque to
Speaker 1: reinhabit Albuquerque again, Albuquerque, Bernal Leo area, for another winter,
Speaker 1: and a subset goes north to Kansas. Uh, they stay there.
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, twenty five days or something
Speaker 1: like that before they come back, after realizing there was
Speaker 1: nothing up there that they were interested in. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then they all go back to the Albuquerque area spend
Speaker 1: the winter there. Before they leave, Cornado gets kicked in
Speaker 1: the head by a horse. Yes, it starts acting peculiar. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that was the second concussion he got. The
Speaker 1: first one was uh CIBLA, where they threw a slab
Speaker 1: down and he was in full armor, including a helmet,
Speaker 1: but it hit him on the head and I think
Speaker 1: even if you had a helmet on, that's going to
Speaker 1: cause a pretty big problem. So your second concussion is
Speaker 1: always the worst. So I think he was in really
Speaker 1: bad shape. In fact, when the settlement that I found
Speaker 1: got attacked, someone was heading south to return to new
Speaker 1: Spain and then ultimately Spain. I saw that the place
Speaker 1: had been attacked, went all the way back to the
Speaker 1: Albuquerque area and didn't tell Coronado right away because of
Speaker 1: his concussions. So it must have been really bad. So Uh.
Speaker 1: So I think he basically Um was. I think he
Speaker 1: was pretty bad off, but I think that the fact
Speaker 1: that they had not found anything, the fact that he
Speaker 1: had a second concussion the fact that the side I found,
Speaker 1: Santanimo three, was attacked and destroyed. Uh, and Um, what
Speaker 1: was the other thing I was gonna say? I forget.
Speaker 1: But anyway, all of those factors together, I think we're
Speaker 1: that were the reasons that they ended an expedition. Now, Castinato,
Speaker 1: one of the chroniclers for the expedition, who wrote some
Speaker 1: twenty years later, he said that he missed his wife
Speaker 1: and also, you know, his estates and so on. Well,
Speaker 1: part of the thing he was governor of Nueva Glossia,
Speaker 1: and so he had responsibilities down there and the MISHTM
Speaker 1: war had already started. So like that area was an unrest.
Speaker 1: He had responsibilities for that and here he was way
Speaker 1: up there and nothing was turning out like it should.
Speaker 1: So he was like miles away and nothing was happening. UH,
Speaker 1: they weren't getting wealthy, people were starting to cause problems,
Speaker 1: people were dying. Uh, you know, things just bad energy,
Speaker 1: and I got like got like mutinous, and they come
Speaker 1: home penniless. Then they all get the finger point and
Speaker 1: exactly fighting. And it wasn't. So it wasn't like sacking,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like getting Montezooma's gold at all. So, out
Speaker 1: of those hundred, how many do you think ended up
Speaker 1: back dealing, like, back where they came from or started from?
Speaker 1: And then, and then when dawn and lived? Um, not
Speaker 1: that many Spaniards died. Some died of hunger, some died
Speaker 1: being on the way up, by being uh killed by
Speaker 1: natives as they were going north. UH, some died from
Speaker 1: poisonous plants they were eating because they were so hungry,
Speaker 1: and then some died in the battles that they had
Speaker 1: in the Albuquerque Bernelo area. Do you believe that the
Speaker 1: do you believe that they were getting shot by poison
Speaker 1: arrows because they felt that they were Oh, no question.
Speaker 1: In fact, this gets back to the to the indigenous
Speaker 1: people that I have studied for forty years, the CEVIYPRIOTEM,
Speaker 1: the ancestors of the people there in the Tucson area, uh,
Speaker 1: the Atham. UH, their ancestors use poison arrows. In fact,
Speaker 1: I studied a battle from when the Jesuit Um uh
Speaker 1: sabrio Keino was there. Um, a battle occurred five D
Speaker 1: Apache and the allies attacked this eighty person Sipriatan village
Speaker 1: on the San Pedro River, that Middle River. Again Anyway,
Speaker 1: they ended up prevailing. UH, despite that. It's a long story,
Speaker 1: it's an incredible story, it's absolutely fabulous, but anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: they use poison arrows against their enemies. And so while
Speaker 1: only fifty four, I think it was, enemies were actually
Speaker 1: killed on the site that day, they pursued them into
Speaker 1: the mountains and over three hundred and sixty, I think,
Speaker 1: died on the way to the mountains because they'd been
Speaker 1: pierced by those arrows. These guys that talked about getting
Speaker 1: like a superficial wound on your wrists, say, and then
Speaker 1: it would be that they talk of, like everything would
Speaker 1: rod away and you could just see the sinews and
Speaker 1: the bones. They'd get into excruciating pain and die, Yep,
Speaker 1: because they were like because they got some kind of
Speaker 1: crazy thing. They're dipping these little arrows in and they
Speaker 1: just sit and ambush them and just try to just
Speaker 1: prick them with the Arrow. Yeah, it's some actually, interestingly,
Speaker 1: I identified what plant it is. It's a sap of
Speaker 1: a Mexican jumping being. I can't remember the scientific name
Speaker 1: because it was in the process of changing when I
Speaker 1: studied it. But here's the fun thing. My site, the villa,
Speaker 1: or the town side of San Hieronimo three. That was
Speaker 1: my first Coronado side. I found where the battle occurred.
Speaker 1: The documentary record from a few years later, from twenty
Speaker 1: four years later, talks about it again from a survivor
Speaker 1: and part of what the story is is really fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating story which I won't go through unless
Speaker 1: you want me to, but part of the story is
Speaker 1: that the captain was sleeping with the wives and daughters
Speaker 1: of the native villagers, the Cevipriatam and that really ticked
Speaker 1: the locals off, as well as the fact that they
Speaker 1: were taking more than they said they were going to
Speaker 1: take in terms of food stuff and resources, tribute and stuff. Uh.
Speaker 1: And they were chopping the hands and noses off the residents,
Speaker 1: probably for terrorism, but also probably for minor, minor offenses, lie,
Speaker 1: you know, complaining that you took my daughter, you know,
Speaker 1: or my wife. So Um. But anyway, so they saw
Speaker 1: lights in the mountains, apparently the night before the attack occurred,
Speaker 1: and that was unusual. So they doubled the guard and
Speaker 1: we have six lookout stations, by the way, around our
Speaker 1: via uh, and three of them with evidence of having
Speaker 1: been attacked. So they doubled the guard, but the attack
Speaker 1: didn't occur until the morning when everybody kind of got lazy.
Speaker 1: You know that happens. They attacked, they snuck in, probably
Speaker 1: with clubs first, and clubbed people in their houses and
Speaker 1: such Um. The captain was killed, and he was the
Speaker 1: one responsible for all of this stuff. In fact, he
Speaker 1: was sleeping with two yeah too, and what those women
Speaker 1: did is they took a poison arrowhead and pricked him
Speaker 1: on the side between the folds of his wee peel,
Speaker 1: which is kind of clothing, and he died from that.
Speaker 1: And I love telling that story because, you know, the
Speaker 1: yellow rows of Texas is Um, during the UM, Sam
Speaker 1: Houston I was able to overrun Santa Anna because he
Speaker 1: had a Mulatto woman there who was distracting him in
Speaker 1: his tent at the time. Okay, so that's the story
Speaker 1: and that's yeah, and so here we've got the yellow,
Speaker 1: I mean here we have the red roses of Sulia,
Speaker 1: who took a arrowhead and killed the captain during the battle.
Speaker 1: So you have these brave women, women are rarely mentioned
Speaker 1: in the historic record and UH, here they are central
Speaker 1: figures in killing one of the main perpetrators of violence
Speaker 1: in the area. It's just phenomenal. So there's the other
Speaker 1: poison they made. Like it's like and read about, I
Speaker 1: don't re understand it would be that they would take
Speaker 1: dear liver and have a rattlesnake and, like pastor, a
Speaker 1: rattlesnake with the deer liver until the lattle snakes struck
Speaker 1: the deer liver and then they'd pay ace. That is that.
Speaker 1: Does that seem like legit Um? That isn't a that
Speaker 1: was one of the Apache tribe's way of doing it.
Speaker 1: There's a variety of different kinds of poison that one
Speaker 1: can use. Yeah, I've studied some of it, not because
Speaker 1: I have any intense and using it, but I find
Speaker 1: poison fascinating the same reason other people do, but because
Speaker 1: it plays such an important role in the historic record
Speaker 1: and also in warfare in the historic record, because when
Speaker 1: you start using poison you're trying to kill people. It's
Speaker 1: not you're just having this ritualized warfare like some small
Speaker 1: societies do, so that you don't have to kill a
Speaker 1: number of people. When you start using poison, you're trying
Speaker 1: to kill people. You know, you're trying to kill as
Speaker 1: many as you can. There's a I don't want to
Speaker 1: take us too far, afield, but there's a I think
Speaker 1: you've just passed away geists geist. Just I yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it was him. Apologies to his UH survivors if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about this, but in looking at the place,
Speaker 1: to seeing Megafauna extinctions, I feel a key help because
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, how would they have killed them?
Speaker 1: You know, we just don't have that many projectile points
Speaker 1: associated with mammoths. And he wrote the thing about how
Speaker 1: do we know that they weren't hunting with poison? And
Speaker 1: he talked about because poison is not like we know
Speaker 1: in South America poisons used. We know in Africa they
Speaker 1: hunt big game with poison. But he was making the
Speaker 1: case of why have we just ignored the role of
Speaker 1: poison in hunting when we know that poison is used
Speaker 1: in warfare? Well, we also know it is used in
Speaker 1: food acquisition and stuff like some, I think it's South American, groups,
Speaker 1: put poison in the water, all the fish come to
Speaker 1: the surface kind of thing. So I mean poison plays
Speaker 1: a role in all kinds of food acquisition strategies. So
Speaker 1: that's not just surprising, although I don't know how to
Speaker 1: respond to the other than one thought is that one
Speaker 1: of the reasons those fluted points are fluted is so
Speaker 1: that the blood flows. And that doesn't make sense with
Speaker 1: trying to get the poison to enter the bloods dreams. So, but,
Speaker 1: but they could have been using other weapons to get
Speaker 1: the poison in. Right. So uh, one might think, why
Speaker 1: would anyone give a ship uh what route they took?
Speaker 1: But I'm starting to put it together. If you find
Speaker 1: the route, you can find the stuff well and like
Speaker 1: and and put and solve the mystery. Well, solving the
Speaker 1: mystery is a huge part of it. That's where part
Speaker 1: of my passion comes from. Right. But for me, as
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I love finding things, I love piecing the
Speaker 1: story together using archaeology, the historic record and a variety
Speaker 1: of other things, geography, ethnography and so on. But I
Speaker 1: also have gotten to the point in my career many,
Speaker 1: many years ago, probably a couple of decades ago, where
Speaker 1: I realized that it's more than just an academic pursuit.
Speaker 1: For me, I like it when it becomes relevant to
Speaker 1: the people that I'm studying. So that's why I work
Speaker 1: with the Athum uh, the the direct descendants of not
Speaker 1: only the mission and presidio sites and and Ceviibrieatham sites
Speaker 1: that I studied, the native sites, but also this coronado story,
Speaker 1: because now that we know where the route is, we
Speaker 1: know that they were impacted. Everybody has thought that it
Speaker 1: was the OPATA, a different group further eastern Sonora, that Coronado, etcetera,
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Those were the ones who were impacted. No,
Speaker 1: it turns out it's the Atham, the AUTHOM had some
Speaker 1: of the earliest negative encounters with Europeans. So it matters
Speaker 1: to them, not only, like I said before, so they
Speaker 1: can understand the history of trauma where some of their
Speaker 1: cultural changes occurred. You know, they probably had, you know,
Speaker 1: kids who were mixed race because of this rape that occurred.
Speaker 1: I mean all of these groups did in fact probably
Speaker 1: also a stave them. Probably was sleeping with all kinds
Speaker 1: of native women. So they're probably African American intermixture. There's
Speaker 1: European intermixture and stuff. So that can you main being
Speaker 1: a native woman in one of these towns that got
Speaker 1: raped by one of these men and then having this
Speaker 1: white looking kid that you have to deal with and explain,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it there's all kinds of repercussions
Speaker 1: along those lines. But also, like I said before, now
Speaker 1: we know that the atom were the bravest, they were
Speaker 1: the valiant ones, they were the ones that made the whole.
Speaker 1: I mean that was the final nail in the coffin
Speaker 1: for the expedition. Once that happened, there's you know, that
Speaker 1: that intermediate supply base basically was gone, and so the
Speaker 1: distance between, quote, Spanish civilization and where they were at
Speaker 1: just doubled in size, and so it made it almost impossible.
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It allows us to put later
Speaker 1: ethnography with earlier ethnography as well. There are so many
Speaker 1: reasons as important Um with archaeology too, and this is
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't understand. When we find,
Speaker 1: when I find a site like I can answer a
Speaker 1: whole range of other questions, like at our town sites
Speaker 1: and Hieronimo. People have said that it's just a supply base,
Speaker 1: that there were only men there, so it wasn't a settlement. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, you can have settlements just of men.
Speaker 1: You can have settlements of men of just age fifteen,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and it's still a settlement. But the
Speaker 1: point is is we there were some women and children
Speaker 1: along on the expedition. We don't know how many, but
Speaker 1: I will be able to tell maybe in the archaeological
Speaker 1: record whether there were women and children at our site.
Speaker 1: That's just one of the kinds of things that we
Speaker 1: can examine, one of the questions that we can examine
Speaker 1: with the archaeological record that are silent in the historic record.
Speaker 1: If you find, if you find latrine sites, can you
Speaker 1: guys do genetic stuff off that? Probably about who would
Speaker 1: you compare it to? You know, you'd have to find
Speaker 1: the descendant populations and stuff. Which would could you? Could
Speaker 1: you tell, uh, male, female, off latrine like off of latrines?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never done that. You know, you
Speaker 1: got a team up with Dr Beth Shapiro. Okay, you
Speaker 1: guys be best friends. Is She full of ship? Listen, man,
Speaker 1: she's the coolest. She's the coolest. She's far from fullish
Speaker 1: person on the planet when it comes to genetics and stuff. Cool.
Speaker 1: You gotta talk to her. Yeah, well, I'm hoping, you know,
Speaker 1: and you find, you find on the tree site and
Speaker 1: get Best Shapiro on air, she'll figure out what's going on.
Speaker 1: We're expecting maybe to find bodies on this site. No, no,
Speaker 1: atom were killed. No, some viper you were killed. No,
Speaker 1: none of the natives were killed. None of the local natives,
Speaker 1: but some of the Spaniards were killed. But the problem
Speaker 1: is in an archaeologist, if we find a body we
Speaker 1: have to stop digging. So we don't want to find
Speaker 1: him until the very end. So I'm not looking around it.
Speaker 1: When you find a site, is it? How does it work?
Speaker 1: Does it work that someone finds something weird and you
Speaker 1: go and look at me like Bigali, here's a site,
Speaker 1: or is it that you say there should be a
Speaker 1: site there. Let me go look both and other things. So, uh,
Speaker 1: the first site I found, uh, is I found it
Speaker 1: very in a very unique way. So I was working
Speaker 1: on trying to find camp sites along the ONS a trail,
Speaker 1: because nobody's found any campsites along the on the trail.
Speaker 1: We know where the route is, that nobody's actually found
Speaker 1: any campsites. Historians of guests where they are. What's that?
Speaker 1: What's the on the trail? UH, WAMBATISTA Tonza, in seventy
Speaker 1: four seventy went out and founded San Francisco, basically brought
Speaker 1: a colony out there. Okay, so he left from TUBAC
Speaker 1: presidio in southern Arizona, south at Tucson, and so, being
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I don't want to guess where the site is,
Speaker 1: I want to find evidence. So I found across a
Speaker 1: petrockly cross and I thought, Oh, maybe this is Barcos
Speaker 1: de Niza, maybe this is father Kino or maybe this
Speaker 1: is Wamba Desta, the Anza. So I finally figured out
Speaker 1: it's probably on because there's a campsite, campsite uh inferred
Speaker 1: to be near there. And then I found another Petrock
Speaker 1: clyff cross further up where we know another camp site.
Speaker 1: They're carving crosses into rocks. Yeah, exactly, and they're probably
Speaker 1: you know, they're at water sources there, at passes and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and we know they're along trails. I
Speaker 1: actually have a youtube video that talks about the Anta
Speaker 1: trail and shows the crosses and so on. So but anyway,
Speaker 1: for a while I was thinking maybe it's Marcos de
Speaker 1: Niza and maybe this is the same route and so on.
Speaker 1: So I started looking into things and then I couldn't
Speaker 1: find any horse shoes related to Uh Ansa, and we
Speaker 1: think that maybe horse shoes weren't used later in time
Speaker 1: because they had the type of horses that had rougher Hoofs,
Speaker 1: like Spanish barbs, and they didn't need them. Plus, horse
Speaker 1: shoes were very expensive. But we know that they were
Speaker 1: used in the Coronado period, during the expedition, and I
Speaker 1: have a bunch of them. I do, I mean I
Speaker 1: found that's more. These other sites, many of them are
Speaker 1: defined by in part by horse shoes. Are Mule shoes. Oh,
Speaker 1: so when you guys talk about the nails, is the
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails? Yes, but I also have a video. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I have a video on that and that's one
Speaker 1: of the uses of them. But there's probably other uses
Speaker 1: for the nails as well. But they're gable headed or
Speaker 1: carrot headed nails. I've started call them gable headed nails
Speaker 1: because they're, you know, like gabled roof and that makes
Speaker 1: a lot more sense. The carrot is an editing character
Speaker 1: kind of because of that, the upside down V shape Um.
Speaker 1: But Anyway, uh, where were we? Horseshoes? Oh, so I
Speaker 1: was looking. I had worked at the Spanish presidio Santa
Speaker 1: Crist terranant prasidio before, excavated there for years and never
Speaker 1: found any horse shoes. So I wasn't hopeful, but I
Speaker 1: looked on the Internet for, you know, what kind of
Speaker 1: horse shoes might have they had that I'm missing, or
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails, and then I found an image of these
Speaker 1: online and nobody knew where they were at. Uh, but
Speaker 1: we knew have found them, and so I guessed where
Speaker 1: he might have found them because I had been working
Speaker 1: on a site for years. I've worked the whole Area
Speaker 1: A lot. But I found a Horse Jangle because Cojo,
Speaker 1: uh Jingle Bobs, some people call him, from the bridle
Speaker 1: bit on my subiper site and I thought this looks
Speaker 1: just like the one on the Jimmy Ollen site. They're
Speaker 1: in Texas, a known Coronado site. So I wondered, like
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, could this be Coronado, but I had
Speaker 1: no way of proving it right. Well, so when I
Speaker 1: guessed where these might have come from, I went back
Speaker 1: to that site after doing a train analysis and within
Speaker 1: a couple of hours, within less than two hours, had
Speaker 1: found Coronado. So the metal detector. Yeah, yeah, Yep, when
Speaker 1: you say you had found Coronado, that doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: found his body. No, no, he's buried. He died ten something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what I mean is um that evidence of Coronado's trail
Speaker 1: and it turns out a town site and now we have,
Speaker 1: like I said, four down here and there's a bunch
Speaker 1: of Albuquerque and so on, and one for sure in
Speaker 1: Texas Um. So that's what I mean as an archaeologist
Speaker 1: when I found Coronado. Yeah, real quick before you go
Speaker 1: farther on, because I'm just still, like you were saying earlier,
Speaker 1: when Steve Asked you, like Oh, if you find the path,
Speaker 1: then then you unravel the mystery. But what is the
Speaker 1: like in real short form? What is the mystery still
Speaker 1: yet with this whole expedition? Well, part of the thing
Speaker 1: is that nobody's been able to find it. So that
Speaker 1: makes it the path. Like how could thousands of people
Speaker 1: and thousands ahead of livestock? I have this role in
Speaker 1: battle from Mexico to Kansas. So the path is the mystery,
Speaker 1: the path and the campsites. And even two fifty years
Speaker 1: or whatever it is ago, Father Keino and his military escort,
Speaker 1: in their documents they left, questioned where coronado went and said, hey,
Speaker 1: he probably went here. You know, turns out corn, turns
Speaker 1: out Father Keno from six nineties actually stayed at one
Speaker 1: of the places where one of our sites are and
Speaker 1: he didn't know it, which is really kind of cool actually.
Speaker 1: So we have these layers of history and stuff, but
Speaker 1: it's been lost. It was lost afterwards partly because they
Speaker 1: didn't know where they were. Right. They didn't know where
Speaker 1: they were on the train. They went back and forth
Speaker 1: several times so they could find their way, but they
Speaker 1: had they had no idea where they were. There's no
Speaker 1: surviving map of this part. So even if they did
Speaker 1: a map, even if even if they prepared a map,
Speaker 1: I don't think it would help much. When they were
Speaker 1: crossing the UH Yano esticado state plans, they were leaving
Speaker 1: big mountains of buffalo chips so they could try to
Speaker 1: find their way back the way they came. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then also, yeah, they true. And then also to find
Speaker 1: their way, they'd shoot arrows. They wait till the morning,
Speaker 1: till the sun rose, they'd shoot a couple of arrows
Speaker 1: and then keep shooting them over one another so they
Speaker 1: could stay on the trail. And My uh, what I
Speaker 1: imagine is when they got led astray by those guides,
Speaker 1: they shot them a little bit to the right each time.
Speaker 1: Right they knew exactly what they were doing. So you
Speaker 1: guys found a this kind of most surprising thing. You've
Speaker 1: turned up, Um, one the cross like armaments, crossbowl Arrow
Speaker 1: you know, projectile points from crossbows that they used and
Speaker 1: they fought. But you found a cannon. Cannon, Yep. So
Speaker 1: before I mentioned the cannon, what we have with regard
Speaker 1: to the crossbow boltheads? We have a I'll show you one,
Speaker 1: but also, Um, what I have here is, Um, a
Speaker 1: map that we plotted them out. I could see in
Speaker 1: the field that Um that we had clustering, but I
Speaker 1: plotted it out more recently and Um, basically what you
Speaker 1: can see. I'M NOT gonna be able to find it now,
Speaker 1: of course. Um, what you can see is that the
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads cluster and in just a tour, actually four
Speaker 1: different areas and in the first area with most of them,
Speaker 1: including broken ones, a lot of tips and so on. Uh,
Speaker 1: there are also subpriatam stone arrowheads. So that's where there
Speaker 1: was little shootouts. Yeah, they came up the wash and
Speaker 1: that right in the heart of the town site. So Um,
Speaker 1: so you can see that. Um, and uh, that is
Speaker 1: one of the strong like when I tell people how
Speaker 1: many crossbow boltheads. We have more than any other coronado site.
Speaker 1: That's convincing. And then how they cluster. We can see
Speaker 1: where they went and such. But Um, near where that
Speaker 1: occurred we did find the cannon, and the Cannon Uh is.
Speaker 1: I'm still looking for this image. Sorry. Um, the cannon
Speaker 1: was found, uh, metal detecting, but it was sitting on
Speaker 1: the obviously, I'd like to rent you for a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks, man, just to just to go metal detecting.
Speaker 1: We'll see. I got some real honey hooles. I'd like
Speaker 1: to go. Have you shown me how to work? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but see, as a professional archaeologist, what I have to say,
Speaker 1: and this is really, I think, important, metal detecting is
Speaker 1: an important tool and I didn't use it much until recently,
Speaker 1: but this is one of the reasons coronado hadn't been found,
Speaker 1: because archaeologists were hesitant to use metal detectors because we
Speaker 1: did not want to to lead the public to the
Speaker 1: idea that you can just go out and loot, meaning
Speaker 1: take things out of context. And well, that's what I'm
Speaker 1: fixing to do with you. Yeah, there you go. So
Speaker 1: that's what you think. Huh? So? So, anyway, here's my point,
Speaker 1: and I want to make a point about this. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to be arrogant, because I know that people.
Speaker 1: One of the reason my crew volunteers, and I have
Speaker 1: like thirty or forty people volunteering with me, and one
Speaker 1: of the reasons they do it is there totally passionate
Speaker 1: about finding this stuff and they get to do it
Speaker 1: in a way that's professionally or, you know, responsible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're like making history. They're making history and they
Speaker 1: knew from the beginning and everybody sworn to secrecy and
Speaker 1: certain rules. We haven't stuff that they can't keep anything.
Speaker 1: But but here's the deal, the reason this is important
Speaker 1: and I can't stress is enough. Remember, I was talking
Speaker 1: about the Sonora River and the Sampedro, where everybody thought
Speaker 1: they went up there, and I have two sites to
Speaker 1: the West and there's two sites to the east, and
Speaker 1: now I'm at the Sampedro trying to decide whether they
Speaker 1: turned north, south or went straight east. Well, I think
Speaker 1: they might have went north because somebody found a medieval
Speaker 1: horseshoe fragment there fifty years ago. The woman who allowed
Speaker 1: this person to look was given this and a few
Speaker 1: other artifacts, and I saw it in her display case.
Speaker 1: She didn't do the meddle detecting. She she doesn't know
Speaker 1: exactly where found, but she thinks it was found to
Speaker 1: the north. Now that's the problem. First of all, if
Speaker 1: I hadn't run into her. I ran into her through
Speaker 1: a friend WHO's on the project, who I've known for
Speaker 1: some time, and I saw this. Where did you get this?
Speaker 1: So she doesn't really know where it came from. So
Speaker 1: that's part of the problem. So I'M gonna be on
Speaker 1: this wild goose chase. But if she knew exactly where
Speaker 1: it came from, then I could walk right there and
Speaker 1: know that that's where the site is. What if that's
Speaker 1: the only artifact that was thrown from a mule or
Speaker 1: horse or the only artifact left behind by the expedition
Speaker 1: in that location? Then it's a race and so many
Speaker 1: people pick these things up they don't record where they're from.
Speaker 1: And that's the one key. And I was working on
Speaker 1: another site. The WHO, the Apache leader? Who? Where he killed?
Speaker 1: Uh Lieutenant cushing, uh Um in one, hero of Tucson
Speaker 1: and so on. Nobody could find this place. I found
Speaker 1: it fairly quick. Uh train analysis again and understanding Apache
Speaker 1: ambush behavior and the thing that we realized is that
Speaker 1: it had been metal detected and collected before. And what happened?
Speaker 1: Is it with somebody from Wisconsin in the Tucson Sierra
Speaker 1: Vista area. He collected all this stuff. He showed a
Speaker 1: local gun shop and they verified it. And that's how
Speaker 1: I know it happened, because it's one of the people
Speaker 1: on my crew and the guy has disappeared. He never
Speaker 1: came back. He was going to come back and the
Speaker 1: things probably ended up in the landfill from Wisconsin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his family probably. I've rel nonetheless. Well, you know, I've
Speaker 1: called up there and tried to figure out maybe where
Speaker 1: they could be. But the problem is when somebody dies,
Speaker 1: their collections just get tossed half the time because nobody recognized.
Speaker 1: They think it's a bunch of trash. And so, with
Speaker 1: regard to Coronado, it's super important that they leave so little.
Speaker 1: These are overnight encampments for the most part, and you
Speaker 1: find one thing in some cases. But if you find
Speaker 1: one thing, artifacts can move, they can get there by
Speaker 1: other reasons. A native could have picked it up or whatever.
Speaker 1: But the fact is if you find an alignment of them,
Speaker 1: then you know you've got the trail. When somebody takes
Speaker 1: one of those out, it's harder to find the next one,
Speaker 1: or you could erase whole segments of the trail. So
Speaker 1: I totally understand and I'm on board with what you're saying.
Speaker 1: It took me a while to get there, but and
Speaker 1: and and again I've been on. I got to spend
Speaker 1: time with archaeologists. We found ice age projectile points that
Speaker 1: they would just shove back into the ground. It was
Speaker 1: painful for me. I would fantasize about going back there
Speaker 1: and getting them all. Never did you like working with me.
Speaker 1: I get it, understand and when I pointed out, when
Speaker 1: I pointed out, I'm just pointed out because it's what
Speaker 1: like a a people people. People walk around looking at
Speaker 1: the ground, thinking you're gonna find some cool ship land
Speaker 1: there right. It's like they often view it as why
Speaker 1: is that archaeologist finding it? Like why is that? Okay,
Speaker 1: but it's bad for me to find it, and that's
Speaker 1: it's like they're like what are they? They're they're better
Speaker 1: than me. You know what is it? I've heard that
Speaker 1: story too and I understand it. I certainly didn't. What
Speaker 1: do you laugh about? You think you're better than me,
Speaker 1: because you know I'm saying it's definitely it's something a
Speaker 1: little kid who is something taken away from them. Go
Speaker 1: volunteer with Danny. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about like, no, I'm putting myself in like articulating the
Speaker 1: thing that's been okay, do this test. Do this test.
Speaker 1: Go on Um, go on Instagram, and and and just
Speaker 1: go on instagram. Take take a projectile point. Okay, and
Speaker 1: go on instagram and put in the palm of your
Speaker 1: hand and say I found this uh Indian Arrowhead. Too
Speaker 1: Bad I couldn't keep it, and then look in the
Speaker 1: comments section a couple of days later. Oh Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: I've read this. So like this is a widely held viewpoint. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know the like what are the odds someone's gonna
Speaker 1: find it? It's been here this long, no one's found
Speaker 1: it yet, whatever. And this ship winds up in coffee
Speaker 1: cans on people's Windows, on the wall right there. If
Speaker 1: Our podcasts people send us that ship, I gotta I
Speaker 1: guess people try to give me all the time. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing. The fact is is that this site
Speaker 1: where the first big the first site I found, the
Speaker 1: biggest one. The town site where the battle occurred. People
Speaker 1: had metal detected there before that. Yeah, they haven't had
Speaker 1: no idea what they're looking at. Well, they had worst
Speaker 1: metal detectors. They didn't know what they were looking at
Speaker 1: and they're all out of context. And the fact is
Speaker 1: is what I would say to people who have that
Speaker 1: view is I understand it. It's the thrill, it's the
Speaker 1: thrill of the chase, it's the adventure, it's finding something
Speaker 1: cool and old. But Americans are kind of unique in
Speaker 1: that way. Is that we got to keep things for
Speaker 1: some reason. We want to put them on our mantle.
Speaker 1: Other people when people come over and go see that, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: ship and we like to collect. Well, and also people
Speaker 1: have collected it and said I collected this for you
Speaker 1: so that nobody else would take it, and I said
Speaker 1: you just took it, you know. But tell you something,
Speaker 1: this is gonna trip you up. This is the Tony
Speaker 1: Baker story, the late Tony Baker. They were talking bad
Speaker 1: about the dead. No, they found Tony Baker. No, I
Speaker 1: don't know where it went. I remember telling me the story.
Speaker 1: They found they were at a Pueblo. Archaeologists working a
Speaker 1: Pueblo site had found where the Pueblo in people had
Speaker 1: a stash of fulsome points. They found it and thought
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, and they're they're separated by ten thousand years.
Speaker 1: We find that in archaeological sites. Is often things were
Speaker 1: picked up to put in medicine bags or picked up
Speaker 1: as Curios or also picked up at to reuse. So
Speaker 1: that's quite common. They're like these people are from a long,
Speaker 1: long time ago. Let's strong in jail. I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The viewpoint be like they, in their time,
Speaker 1: like a thousand years ago whatever, recognized that like wow, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing from a long time ago. And See,
Speaker 1: I think there's people who just don't care about history
Speaker 1: in the past, but there's huge number of people, I'd
Speaker 1: say maybe half the population or more, that find a
Speaker 1: fascination with the past, with history, with people have gone before.
Speaker 1: It's a connection. Artifacts provide that tangible connection to the
Speaker 1: past and that's why people are enthralled by it. But
Speaker 1: what I will say is, getting back to our site
Speaker 1: and our project, I haven't asked my biggest question yet,
Speaker 1: and it has to do with the cannon. Okay, so
Speaker 1: the reason that it's important is what if somebody had
Speaker 1: come in and collected all these crossbow bolt heads. If
Speaker 1: they had, you know, done it and found this or
Speaker 1: the cannon the bolt heads, we wouldn't have been able
Speaker 1: to see the pattern, right, we wouldn't have known that
Speaker 1: this is a most important historic site, potentially in the region,
Speaker 1: in the southern Arizona at least Um. If they had
Speaker 1: found the cannon, you know where I'd be right now?
Speaker 1: In some Saudi's basement in his private collection. That's right
Speaker 1: on some of my kids. Yeah, exactly, see. So the
Speaker 1: way I look at this is this is all of
Speaker 1: our histories, right is this not just my find, and
Speaker 1: that's why I'm sharing it in the film and the
Speaker 1: documentary film. But I also see that as an archaeologist,
Speaker 1: I could go out and find this stuff and not
Speaker 1: tell anybody, right, I mean, I could do it just
Speaker 1: like the public does, but I don't because I recognize
Speaker 1: that this is our collective history and most other countries,
Speaker 1: how a sensibility about that that we would help if
Speaker 1: we started thinking about it this way, because once we
Speaker 1: take something out of the context, is everything, once we
Speaker 1: take it out of its context in the field, we
Speaker 1: lose the story, the story about Coronado and this uh
Speaker 1: town site of San Joranimo, the interaction with the natives
Speaker 1: and all of this is just so phenomenal. It's the
Speaker 1: story itself that we can tell from the artifacts and
Speaker 1: where we found them on the ground and the relationship
Speaker 1: to each other and the features, the structures and so
Speaker 1: on that we're finding. If people just collected that, we
Speaker 1: would lose that. So we have this whole the whole
Speaker 1: story that we're able to develop because people didn't get
Speaker 1: in there and destroy the evidence. And that's why I
Speaker 1: keep the place secret, because I can only work so much.
Speaker 1: See I can only work so fast. I almost killed
Speaker 1: myself last season trying to get certain things done before
Speaker 1: the end of the before it got too hot and
Speaker 1: before the rains and stuff. But if people find out
Speaker 1: where it is, they're going to come into metal detect
Speaker 1: and then it's going to mess up our distributions. So
Speaker 1: at least until we're done metal detective, I've been going
Speaker 1: over some areas five times to get everything out so
Speaker 1: that people don't feel the need to go right Um,
Speaker 1: we've got to figure out how to protect it uh,
Speaker 1: but if you want to see it, you'll have to
Speaker 1: wait till it's in a museum. Yeah, we'll probably end
Speaker 1: up doing site tours and stuff, but they're gonna it's
Speaker 1: gonna be consultation with various landowners and agencies and, you know,
Speaker 1: the whole whole range, because it's even when I extract
Speaker 1: what I extract, I'm only going to do a subset
Speaker 1: of the evidence. there. The the ethic is to save
Speaker 1: a lot of it for the future, and so I'll
Speaker 1: do that. But also the landowners don't want to be overrun. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be turned into, hopefully to a
Speaker 1: monument or landmark so that people can go just like
Speaker 1: they do to a national park. Um, it's such a
Speaker 1: big thing. It's such a big fine so so important
Speaker 1: to our history, into the history of underrepresented populations, native populations,
Speaker 1: the Ottom and also the Hispanics in the area. It's
Speaker 1: going to be a matter of pride for them and
Speaker 1: they're gonna want to have their interpretations. In fact, the
Speaker 1: autumn that we've brought out so far are really proud
Speaker 1: to be part of it so that they can start
Speaker 1: telling their story for a change. So I mean it
Speaker 1: has social implications. The fact that we've been able to
Speaker 1: find this stuff intact, that it hasn't been collected before.
Speaker 1: I'll stop harping. That's enough. But you got it. You
Speaker 1: got it covered. Could I want to ask my biggest questions?
Speaker 1: You can describe the Canon within this, within this thing,
Speaker 1: but you found the oldest gun to ever turn up
Speaker 1: in the US. Okay, Yep, it's been sitting there for
Speaker 1: I can't really do the math, four years when we
Speaker 1: found it. It's been sitting there for four years. And
Speaker 1: you find it kind of like built into an adobe wall. No, no, sitting, uh,
Speaker 1: inside a structure. So the structure walls were made of
Speaker 1: Adobe and rock and had collapsed on it to protect it.
Speaker 1: But I haven't done my question yet. Okay, what the
Speaker 1: Hell did someone think that wall was? WHO's been looking
Speaker 1: at it? First, since, like, are there that many walls
Speaker 1: out there? They're like, Oh, I didn't know that the
Speaker 1: Coronado expedition built that wall in my backyard. What was
Speaker 1: it regarded like? How is it perceived by the people
Speaker 1: who are occupying that area now? Okay, so first of
Speaker 1: all it's ranch land, but secondly there's no walls visible
Speaker 1: on the surface. So what happened is it was partially
Speaker 1: burned and collapsed at the end and it's melted into
Speaker 1: the surface and my heart was somehow picturing it. They're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that old wall was, people passing
Speaker 1: it by for French today. Yeah, archeologists surface. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and so my question. Yeah, so my entire careers, career
Speaker 1: has been spent on identifying Apache, so viper, all these
Speaker 1: groups that are difficult to define, hard to see the
Speaker 1: archaeological evidence. And this is just as difficult, just as
Speaker 1: hard because it's a type of structure. The structure I'm
Speaker 1: digging now is unlike the prehistoric stuff and unlike the
Speaker 1: later historic stuff, and that's what's so cool about it.
Speaker 1: So I've been digging it very carefully to try not
Speaker 1: to ruin it, because there's only one structure in the
Speaker 1: entire world that has coronado's cannon in it, m as
Speaker 1: far as we know. So, uh, so, I I have
Speaker 1: this responsibility which almost paralyzed me. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: in decision. What do I do? Because I have I
Speaker 1: have a responsibility as a professional. Uh Two, be as
Speaker 1: careful as I can and to preserve as much of
Speaker 1: it as possible. And so tell how you guys found thing.
Speaker 1: The cannon. Yeah, like, what was it doing and how
Speaker 1: did you find okay, it was laying there kind of
Speaker 1: smoking a cigarette. No, Um, only two of us were
Speaker 1: out in the field that day. So, uh, it was
Speaker 1: in September of we were. I had just laid out
Speaker 1: that we lay out these tape lines so that we
Speaker 1: can systematically metal detect right and uh, Chris went ahead
Speaker 1: and got started and I finished laying out the lines
Speaker 1: and then I got started. In like five yards or
Speaker 1: meters into the first line I got a hit. It
Speaker 1: wasn't very strong, so I started digging it. As. Are
Speaker 1: you set for a specific type of metal? No, U.
Speaker 1: The detectors that I use are all medals. I got
Speaker 1: them set for all medals. UH, intentionally so, because most
Speaker 1: people looking for treasures and stuff are looking for gold
Speaker 1: or looking for, you know, old coins and stuff. We're
Speaker 1: just as interested in the E and artifacts, the Ferris
Speaker 1: artifacts is, we are other things like the nails are right.
Speaker 1: So I have the hardest time explaining to my kids
Speaker 1: that they're not going to find stone arrowheads with their metal. No,
Speaker 1: you won't, but I explain it. It's twenty times, but
Speaker 1: it just doesn't click. They think it's an old thing, detector,
Speaker 1: walk up on the street, find old people, right. No, Um,
Speaker 1: so all metals. In fact, I've had a hard time
Speaker 1: convincing my crew at times. Look, we can't discriminate. You've
Speaker 1: got to find everything. So you're digging through old twenty
Speaker 1: two shell casings and pull tabs off beer cans and, Um,
Speaker 1: I want to tell all the hunters out there please, please,
Speaker 1: we have so many. In fact, people yell out shotgun
Speaker 1: because we find so many shotgun shells. Uh. It's just
Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. A little bb size shot. We can we
Speaker 1: get that too? You're finding that. Oh yeah, our detectors
Speaker 1: are good and our crews are good, so we find
Speaker 1: really tiny stuff. You know, twenty two is all kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff. A lead shot. She should pair up with
Speaker 1: Chris Parish. It's like a lead clean up at the
Speaker 1: same time as like an archaeological well, what we do
Speaker 1: is we collect that kind of stuff and then we
Speaker 1: dump it. But I always checked my cruise pockets because
Speaker 1: a couple of times, no, no, no, no, because a
Speaker 1: couple of times they don't take anything, but a couple
Speaker 1: of times something that was a value. We thought what
Speaker 1: they thought was a piece of wire and it wasn't okay. So,
Speaker 1: like what we have is we have fish hooks, like
Speaker 1: size number six fish hooks. We have several of those
Speaker 1: and one with a weight. We have um little spring
Speaker 1: things that went inside uh Um matchlocks and we lock guns.
Speaker 1: We have expedition had fish hooks. So they were fishing
Speaker 1: at our site because it's near water. Isn't that cool?
Speaker 1: We have several. I wouldn't have believed it if we
Speaker 1: just found one. But get a picture of that old
Speaker 1: ask Fishhook. Um, I'll see, we'll get it from you. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then, and then, okay, but I interrupted. You tell
Speaker 1: me how you found the cannon. So there you are.
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, so I I got a hit and I
Speaker 1: started digging down and it was about a foot under
Speaker 1: the ground and I thought this is really weird. What
Speaker 1: is this? And so I called Chris, because any time
Speaker 1: we find something cool we call the other person over.
Speaker 1: So he comes over and what is that? And I said,
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's a bell, because it had
Speaker 1: that Cassoo Bell on top, you know, and uh, we
Speaker 1: kept digging. Finally he takes the metal detection he goes
Speaker 1: it's long. I wonder if it's an irrigation pipe. I said,
Speaker 1: it's not an irrigation pipe. What is it? You know
Speaker 1: there's no irrigation out here. Um. Anyway, so he kept
Speaker 1: digging it and realized started realizing what it was. And
Speaker 1: so the thing is, I sent you something. It shows
Speaker 1: the roots wrapped around the gun. So I called a
Speaker 1: couple other crew members who were the main crew members
Speaker 1: at the time. I said you gotta get out here.
Speaker 1: We found this. I sent him a picture of it
Speaker 1: and uh, I said you've got to bring a sauce
Speaker 1: all or something, because we got these roots wrapped around it. So, uh,
Speaker 1: one of the people where he was able to come
Speaker 1: out and he brought a sauceall and we were we
Speaker 1: knew by that point that it was pretty cool and
Speaker 1: that it was probably a canon or something. We didn't
Speaker 1: we've never seen one like that. Suite, how much of
Speaker 1: it were you looking at that moment, at that point
Speaker 1: in time? Like two inches of this thing? Are you
Speaker 1: already looking at of it? Um, when I called people,
Speaker 1: was the one you were realizing that you had something
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Well, I realized it was pretty darn awesome
Speaker 1: when I first dug down and only saw let's say
Speaker 1: six inches of it because enough of the CASCA bell
Speaker 1: was exposed and I could tell it was a bronze
Speaker 1: like material. I didn't know it was bronze, but you know,
Speaker 1: something like that and uh, something unusual and Um, and
Speaker 1: so I kept exposing it. But while I was digging it,
Speaker 1: I was also trying to figure out whether it was
Speaker 1: in some kind of pit or something, because the context,
Speaker 1: once again, is critical. So it turns out it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It was sitting on the floor of a destroyed structure
Speaker 1: from the battle. But UH, Chris took the metal detector
Speaker 1: and figured out it was real long. So we dug
Speaker 1: the whole thing and cleaned it out and stuff, and
Speaker 1: then the guy came out with a saws all and
Speaker 1: we were so protective. I was really glad I found
Speaker 1: it because I know how to dig the things. So
Speaker 1: I didn't put any dings or anything on it. I
Speaker 1: mean that's that's kind of a source of pride, but
Speaker 1: also here's this rare artifact and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: damage it anyway. So when we were using the SAWS alls,
Speaker 1: we were putting our hands to protect the can and
Speaker 1: I can't believe we did that. Finally, I said no,
Speaker 1: don't do that. Put your glove down. I mean that's
Speaker 1: how crazy it was. It was starting to get hot. Uh,
Speaker 1: it was only September, but September can be it was
Speaker 1: already September, but September can still be hot. By the
Speaker 1: time we finished up, we were just dripped and sweat
Speaker 1: and we were out of water and there were three
Speaker 1: of us out there and we just I mean at
Speaker 1: that point it was just a man we were just
Speaker 1: glad to get it out of there. But the reason
Speaker 1: we had to get it out that day is I've
Speaker 1: always had I think all archaeologists do this. Once you
Speaker 1: find something cool, you can't just bury it and come
Speaker 1: back the next day and finish it, because you feel
Speaker 1: like all these eyes are on you, you know, like
Speaker 1: radio hosts following you out to the site. So you
Speaker 1: got to get it out. Something that important you got
Speaker 1: to get out of the ground. So we stayed there
Speaker 1: until like two o'clock, I think it wasn't it, or
Speaker 1: just about dying it was hot. Describe the cannon like.
Speaker 1: How was it made? Where was it made? What would
Speaker 1: he use it for? Okay, so we've called it a
Speaker 1: wall gun, maybe a hack better, something as a hook,
Speaker 1: a gun with a hook on the bottom that they
Speaker 1: would put on a wall or parapet or something, or
Speaker 1: on a Tripod. Usually a shot by two men, one
Speaker 1: to light the match and the other one to hold it. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: God is a preliberal term and my thing for this thing.
Speaker 1: It is. But that's why that article that I gave you,
Speaker 1: I've written it with a weapons expert and all of
Speaker 1: his buddies have read it who are familiar with historic
Speaker 1: cannons and guns and so on. So guns a generic term.
Speaker 1: It is a cannon. But yeah, just a listener understands
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what you're describing it. It's
Speaker 1: basically like a in simple terms, it's like at you
Speaker 1: said seven gauge in the article. Yeah, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it was like a millimeter. was roughly when it translated
Speaker 1: to yeah, the bore of it and surprisingly wasn't that heavy.
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be a lot heavier, but
Speaker 1: I think it cands around forty pounds and Um, it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's actually heavier than that. When people, everybody WHO's picked
Speaker 1: it up, point this is really kind of heavy. Um
Speaker 1: It uh. In two sites in the Albuquerque Bernolio area
Speaker 1: they found some of the shot that probably went with it.
Speaker 1: But at our site there's no walls too to bombard
Speaker 1: with the larger shots. So we think that they were shooting, uh,
Speaker 1: Buckshot or swan shot, you know, smaller lead balls. It
Speaker 1: wasn't loaded. Wasn't when you found it. It wasn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you should have brought you should have brought that thing here.
Speaker 1: Was For us to take a game. And no stock either.
Speaker 1: No stock either. That was interesting. Like that Hook that
Speaker 1: you were just talking about, like they think that they
Speaker 1: used to like use that as a way to control
Speaker 1: the weapon but also to manage the recoil a little bit. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Placed on the far side of a wall or the forest,
Speaker 1: the hook would be on the forest of a wall
Speaker 1: or a branch. So when the gun would recoil that, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and that's probably part of what the two people in
Speaker 1: the tripod are about. Two because it would have knocked
Speaker 1: somebody over. Otherwise been pretty powerful, depending on the charge
Speaker 1: that was put in there. But yes, so, um, it's crude.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to have makers marks. The PAN is
Speaker 1: not dished out. UH, there's no decoration we have. The
Speaker 1: PAN is not dished no, it's flat. So when they
Speaker 1: put priming powder around it is like would lay that
Speaker 1: priming powder around a flat little surface, Yep, and take
Speaker 1: a match and touch it to it and boom. Do
Speaker 1: you think it hadn't occurred to him to pan it out,
Speaker 1: like we're people panting out the archibuses and stuff by then? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just that's one reason we think it was made
Speaker 1: in Mexico, because we know that Cortez made a bunch.
Speaker 1: In fact, I've cided, I think, in that article Um,
Speaker 1: the quotations about how he made several. What we've discerned, too,
Speaker 1: is that this is actually a copper ally rather than
Speaker 1: really bronze. So it's a copper alloy, but they would
Speaker 1: have considered it bronze. It's close enough, you know. So
Speaker 1: for some reason I thought when I read your paper,
Speaker 1: I thought it was I thought you mentioned it being
Speaker 1: dished out, but it's just a flat little platform. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll show you a picture later, but it's just at
Speaker 1: and so there's a variety of reasons. Plus it would
Speaker 1: have been uh Um. Oh, here's the other thing. The
Speaker 1: the way you can see how it was cast. You
Speaker 1: can see the sprew marks on their still and as
Speaker 1: Um some of the experts have pointed out, no self
Speaker 1: respecting foundry in Spain would have left those on there.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a matter of pride in making Nice firearms.
Speaker 1: So so there's a variety of reasons and several of
Speaker 1: the experts who we sent that paper to agreed that
Speaker 1: it probably was made in Mexico, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 1: Who knows whether they made it specifically for this uh
Speaker 1: expedition or whether it was one of the ones that
Speaker 1: Cortez had. It certainly would have been. Would not have
Speaker 1: been a Columbus one, because his were iron as far
Speaker 1: as we know. Man. Yeah, the oldest, you know, even though, yeah,
Speaker 1: I said like gun, the oldest firearm whatever. We were
Speaker 1: trying to mix up the words, because you can only
Speaker 1: use cannon or law that are hacked but so many times.
Speaker 1: But like the oldest gone found in the continental us
Speaker 1: and it's certainly the oldest bronze one. Uh, and it's
Speaker 1: the only one from the CORNADO expedition. I mean it's
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal, it's pretty cool. Uh. We called it our
Speaker 1: trophy for a while so we didn't have to tell
Speaker 1: people what it was. Uh. You know, we're keeping it
Speaker 1: secret for a while so it really is our trophy artifact.
Speaker 1: There's UH, it's it's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of better than a helmet and a breastplate too,
Speaker 1: we decided. So have you found some of those? No,
Speaker 1: but we have found pieces of armor off those. And
Speaker 1: then there's two people in the area who found helmets,
Speaker 1: one of which has disappeared once again, is collected and
Speaker 1: is probably thrown away now, and the other one. I
Speaker 1: went up to talk to the guy and he was
Speaker 1: so secretive he wouldn't show it to me. So I'M
Speaker 1: gonna hopefully get a neighbor to go with me and
Speaker 1: and we'll talk him into how does he those are
Speaker 1: probably traded right among the tribes. Well, here's the interesting thing.
Speaker 1: Given that there was a battle there and many people
Speaker 1: were killed and then everybody else dispersed, I sus bact
Speaker 1: some were stashed in structures that the natives took somewhere,
Speaker 1: possibly buried, because that's how you did things when you
Speaker 1: wanted to store things at that time. You pretty much
Speaker 1: buried them if they are a value and they might
Speaker 1: have gotten dug up later. Um. In other cases, the
Speaker 1: natives killed some Spaniards and probably took them in. So
Speaker 1: some of them might have been uh ritually or ceremonially cashed.
Speaker 1: Some might have been destroyed uh in in retaliation, Um,
Speaker 1: some might have been traded to other people. There are
Speaker 1: pieces of armor reported all around, some which occur in
Speaker 1: the Apache area and Hacoma area, other natives of the time.
Speaker 1: So I suspect that they were in fact traded all
Speaker 1: over the place Um, and ended up, you know, across
Speaker 1: the landscape. That's why we have a halo of stuff
Speaker 1: around our site. Are you familiar with are you familiar with, Um,
Speaker 1: that Charlton has the movie called the mountain men? I
Speaker 1: should be in this. They go uh, it sort of
Speaker 1: takes place as the beaver getting diminished. Charlton Heston and
Speaker 1: his mountain man trapping partner go to a chief named
Speaker 1: iron belly who is supposed to be passing along to
Speaker 1: them a hot tip about where there's still a lot
Speaker 1: of beaver left. And he is wearing Spanish armor, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of like a plot point. The iron belly
Speaker 1: has like old Spanish armor, and so it sort of
Speaker 1: lodes this way that stuff from that era was traded
Speaker 1: around and it's being like up in Wyoming but I
Speaker 1: have a very hot tip for you, though. When you
Speaker 1: talk about the stat that there could be a stash
Speaker 1: of corneto helmets or whatever, do you know there's a
Speaker 1: rumor that after the battle of little big Horn, a
Speaker 1: bunch of the stuff, a bunch of the custer expedition stuff,
Speaker 1: was stashed in the cave cool and somebody found it
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago. Now, supposedly there's like a cash
Speaker 1: and some people have seen it or not, of like
Speaker 1: stuff that was like pulled off of the custer's command
Speaker 1: and buried in a cave nearby. Well, you know, I
Speaker 1: will say that, Um, if, if I hear all kinds
Speaker 1: of stories like this. In fact, I actually have some
Speaker 1: people call me up and then I questioned them a
Speaker 1: little bit and then they get a rate that I
Speaker 1: won't do the research for them or go out and
Speaker 1: find it for them. Uh. The latest one is some
Speaker 1: uh supposed gold bars found up in the superstition mountains
Speaker 1: that are actually quite sizeable and you can tell that
Speaker 1: they're painted gold and the earth around it is disturbed.
Speaker 1: I showed my brother, who's also an archaeologist, and I
Speaker 1: go look at this and he laughed. They're clearly not
Speaker 1: gold bars. They're not. They don't even look like gold
Speaker 1: bars from that period. And and you can tell as
Speaker 1: an archaeologist that the ground looks like a garden. You know,
Speaker 1: it's all disturbed. And he's telling me all these other
Speaker 1: things and trying to get me to be his P
Speaker 1: I for some research project. And it's like, Oh, you
Speaker 1: don't even need to do any work. And he doesn't understand.
Speaker 1: I don't just pass my authority around like that. It's
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be your P I, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do the work right. It's my reputation on the line.
Speaker 1: So but anyway, I get requests all the time of
Speaker 1: people lost, Dutchman mine gold, the iron door that's, you know,
Speaker 1: closing off of mine, the old Jesuit Gold, uh, paintings,
Speaker 1: religious paintings that have keys to where the gold is,
Speaker 1: and all this. I mean, I get it all the
Speaker 1: time and uh, you know, you can have a share
Speaker 1: of it or or you can't have a share of it,
Speaker 1: but I'll give you this. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's just like I'm surprised Dan Brown hasn't reached out
Speaker 1: to you to do a and do a book. But
Speaker 1: do you do you actually then ever work. As you're saying,
Speaker 1: it's like a P I for somebody. Have you've been
Speaker 1: hired out to do a project that you have accepted
Speaker 1: along those lines? No, not along those lines, because I
Speaker 1: asked a lot of questions for I mean, I had
Speaker 1: a professor one time who said I send all the
Speaker 1: crack pots to you because I don't want to deal
Speaker 1: with them, and I said you really is that one
Speaker 1: of these is going to come through one of these days.
Speaker 1: But what I do is I talk to people and
Speaker 1: usually I see through the story or I asked so
Speaker 1: many questions that they just stop. UH, stop asking and
Speaker 1: stop communicating with me, because if I'm got to waste
Speaker 1: my time, I want to make sure it's real. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't do that kind of work anymore for anybody else.
Speaker 1: The only reason I would do it for the most
Speaker 1: part is, uh, if it was of a research interest
Speaker 1: interest to me. I have a couple of projects going
Speaker 1: on now. One is actually paid and I retired years ago.
Speaker 1: I just sold my company and do research full time.
Speaker 1: I started that in my mid forties. Um. So right
Speaker 1: now I'm working on the communee real in the El
Speaker 1: Paso area at Los Crusis a Passo area and interviewing
Speaker 1: natives about the trail that became a Spanish trail and
Speaker 1: cultural patterns and landscape and stuff, and then this coronado stuff.
Speaker 1: Anything I do other than Coronado distracts me from Coronado
Speaker 1: and that's all I want to do right now, and
Speaker 1: you can tell that I'm really into what I do
Speaker 1: and so anything that takes me away from that just
Speaker 1: as kind of you know, go away. I don't want
Speaker 1: to deal with it. But if somebody calls me up
Speaker 1: and they have a legitimate fine, or if they think
Speaker 1: they do, I treat them with respect because people are
Speaker 1: interested and there's a lot of people out there who
Speaker 1: have genuine interest or genuine find and I don't want
Speaker 1: to diminish those uh, in fact we want to incorporate
Speaker 1: them into the record if, if they are real. But
Speaker 1: there's so many people. Uh, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: questions that I got asked earlier was how did these
Speaker 1: people believe this uh wild stories about gold and stuff? Well,
Speaker 1: one is because in Mexico and Central America, South America,
Speaker 1: excuse me, they had found gold. But the other thing
Speaker 1: is even today you look around and people believe the
Speaker 1: most outrageous things. And you know, one person looks at
Speaker 1: the evidence and says that's B S and another one
Speaker 1: looks at it and goes wow, they have images of,
Speaker 1: you know, mountains of gold or whatever it is, and
Speaker 1: so it's just imagine, it's just a matter of people
Speaker 1: have always been attracted two legends. People have always been
Speaker 1: attracted to the goal just beyond. You know, that's why
Speaker 1: so many people play the lottery and stuff and go
Speaker 1: to the dog track or the horse track. I mean
Speaker 1: it's this chance of winning big. What is not to
Speaker 1: be exciting about that? I mean that's just you know,
Speaker 1: that's why people eat lucky charms for breakfast. Here you go.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that? If you imagine the the cannon
Speaker 1: location as a center of a circle, what is the
Speaker 1: radius that you're interested in? Like after this battle, I
Speaker 1: mean they probably whatever, like dismembered, somebodies buried, Um, like
Speaker 1: stuff happened, right. I mean there was a lot of stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: the is a kilometer long as we understand it now.
Speaker 1: So that's UH, ten football fields, okay, and and six
Speaker 1: of those wide, including the lookout stations. It's probably going
Speaker 1: to be a kilometer and a half long by the
Speaker 1: time we finished, we just had to stop because of
Speaker 1: the heat. But uh, we have evidence of occupation and
Speaker 1: battle throughout that area. In fact, one area we have
Speaker 1: what they called weapons of the land. We have some
Speaker 1: of those, in other words what the people who weren't
Speaker 1: shooting arquebuses and shooting crossbows were using, in other words
Speaker 1: what they gathered, what the natives made for them or
Speaker 1: they made themselves. So we have these different areas. We
Speaker 1: can see the Spaniards being chased across the landscape, we
Speaker 1: can see them battle, moving and so on. Um, so
Speaker 1: I forget what your question was. I'm sorry. How big
Speaker 1: of an area? I was asked like how big of
Speaker 1: an area, because they're like stuff's gotta be there, there
Speaker 1: is stuff there, right. But well, like I said, we're
Speaker 1: not looking for bodies right now. Yeah, so that's a
Speaker 1: whole different approach, right. You can't metal detect form. Well,
Speaker 1: if they have knives in them and so on, you could,
Speaker 1: but no remembers. You saying if you find a body,
Speaker 1: it's kind of yeah, I'll go down there and take
Speaker 1: a look. Where's this place? Where's this place again? It's
Speaker 1: in South America, Patagonia, down there. Um, but how many
Speaker 1: years will you spend there? You think, UM, probably five.
Speaker 1: And the reason I say five, I've been saying that
Speaker 1: since the beginning, is because it's going to take a lot.
Speaker 1: We're only about half done metal detecting. Plus, we in
Speaker 1: the part that we know about and then we got
Speaker 1: to expand it to the north and south. I think
Speaker 1: it does go further. Uh. Plus, I want to keep
Speaker 1: digging this and a few other structures, but we want
Speaker 1: to leave some in place and I think they're about
Speaker 1: five years. That's enough damage, because what we do is
Speaker 1: archaeologists damages the site. Whether we like to think that
Speaker 1: way or not, we know it does. I'm taking things
Speaker 1: out of context. What I'm doing is I'm putting markers
Speaker 1: down and, uh, using a global positioning system unit to
Speaker 1: mark where they're at so we can know exactly where
Speaker 1: they came from. And then the whole thing is gritted
Speaker 1: and stuff. Now, not the whole thing, but where we're digging. So, Um,
Speaker 1: what my goal is is to drive just enough information
Speaker 1: that I can convince all reasonable people, and maybe even
Speaker 1: some of the serious skeptics, that we actually have the
Speaker 1: town site of San Hieronimo three, that it's actually a
Speaker 1: place where they built structures, where a lot of people lived,
Speaker 1: where other activities went on and so on. Uh, and
Speaker 1: then I'll stop and save it for the future. I
Speaker 1: want to I want to explain to listeners a little
Speaker 1: bit of what you're talking about by saving it for
Speaker 1: the future. And it's just an archaeological site that I'm
Speaker 1: kind of the only one I have any real level of,
Speaker 1: you know, Armchair Authority on. would be when the folsome
Speaker 1: site where they found it was kind of the smoking
Speaker 1: gun of humans in America during the Ice Age, where
Speaker 1: they found Bison skeletons intermixed with projectile points. When they
Speaker 1: originally dug it, they were just looking for big ship
Speaker 1: they're looking for big bones. Later people had to go back,
Speaker 1: archaeologists later went back and had to go sift their
Speaker 1: debris pile for all the stuff they didn't think to
Speaker 1: look for, which is really helpful. Like no one thought pollen, right,
Speaker 1: no one thought about just like small chunks of wood,
Speaker 1: little bits of charcoal, whatever else. And then later, like now, right,
Speaker 1: they have this idea that, man, if we could have
Speaker 1: just found the sort of plant matter mixed in with
Speaker 1: that stuff, it tell you something like what the climate
Speaker 1: was like you know, timey year stuff and all that.
Speaker 1: So I like like when you say like save something
Speaker 1: like who knows, and in a hundred years you might
Speaker 1: go and take a little dirt and run it through
Speaker 1: some machine and it will be like no, there's a
Speaker 1: women here. That's exactly my point. We cannot predict what
Speaker 1: future technologies are going to be able to tell us,
Speaker 1: what the future analyses are going to be able to
Speaker 1: tell us, and that's what we have to be cognizant of.
Speaker 1: I'm collecting as much data as I can. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, this is the only coronado structure that
Speaker 1: we know of that has a cannon in it. So
Speaker 1: I have a responsibility there. Now I would only dig
Speaker 1: half of it if I could figure the structure out
Speaker 1: without digging the whole thing, but I need to dig
Speaker 1: the whole thing, unfortunately, and I'm going to dig some
Speaker 1: others that are associated with it, but for the most
Speaker 1: part the town site is going to remain intact so
Speaker 1: that some other professional can come and ask new questions, uh,
Speaker 1: using new technologies, new types of analyzes, and answer questions
Speaker 1: that I can't even fathom right now. But in terms
Speaker 1: of you demonstrating like hey, this is something that needs
Speaker 1: to be paid attention to and needs to be protected.
Speaker 1: I mean you gotta be Oh, we're there. I was
Speaker 1: there basically the first day. I mean, you know, the
Speaker 1: first first day we had like a half a dozen
Speaker 1: of the gabled headed nails, and then the second day
Speaker 1: we had a crossbow bolt head with many more of
Speaker 1: them and other artifacts, and then it just kept building.
Speaker 1: And so we knew we had coronado. At that time
Speaker 1: I thought it was just an encampment and then it
Speaker 1: got bigger and bigger. So even if it was just
Speaker 1: an encampment with just those things, that would be important
Speaker 1: because none had been found in Arizona. None had been
Speaker 1: found in the fift miles between Compostella and Zuni. Right.
Speaker 1: So Uh. So, in and of itself that was important.
Speaker 1: And then after a while it's I tried to explain
Speaker 1: the battle ofvience away other ways, because that's what I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to do as an archaeologists consider all of the
Speaker 1: possible explanations for what I'm finding, and finally I had
Speaker 1: to settle on the battle. And then once we figured
Speaker 1: out it was a battle site, then I started back
Speaker 1: checking through the records, recognizing that maybe not all battles
Speaker 1: were accounted for in the documents because they weren't supposed
Speaker 1: to be fighting the natives. But it started making sense
Speaker 1: with it being sent heronomous. So I don't think anybody
Speaker 1: who's actually heard the data, seeing the data and so on,
Speaker 1: and we've had lots of archaeologists and historians of the site,
Speaker 1: I don't think they questioned that at Suya in the
Speaker 1: Siuja Valley, send heronimo three in the Suja Valley. I
Speaker 1: think the questions are is um whether it was an
Speaker 1: actual official town site, because that was a contractual thing
Speaker 1: with the king, and I'm arguing that. I think there's
Speaker 1: enough evidence in the documentary reacted to say that there
Speaker 1: that it was. And then the other thing that some
Speaker 1: of the people are disputing is the way the route went. Well,
Speaker 1: I have four sights and they line up West East.
Speaker 1: At this point I'm trying to check other possibilities, but
Speaker 1: right now that's what it's suggesting, which might suggest a
Speaker 1: route that's a little further west, even in in Sonora.
Speaker 1: But that the reason I object to everybody insisting that
Speaker 1: it goes up the Sonora and then down the San
Speaker 1: Pedro and it has to be that with a sidetrack
Speaker 1: is because that's what everybody's thought and they haven't found
Speaker 1: any evidence of Coronado. And here I found evidence Coronado
Speaker 1: Becau has. I haven't accepted that as God's turn. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you thought that's not the route. Yeah, that's kind of
Speaker 1: my point. That's how we archaeologists constructive and they think
Speaker 1: it's a side route. I said, well, did you find
Speaker 1: the evidence there? So I'm trying to check. I'd love
Speaker 1: to see the main route. Yeah, exactly, but I mean
Speaker 1: that's the whole point here. Is the thing that irritates
Speaker 1: me about that is they keep trying to pull me
Speaker 1: back into the Rut of old thinking, and the only
Speaker 1: reason I'm finding this is I'm thinking outside the box.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm considering all other possibilities that I can think
Speaker 1: of and as I search and find things, the new
Speaker 1: possibilities come to mind and I check those out. So
Speaker 1: if they keep trying to pull me back into the
Speaker 1: you know, it has to be Sonora River and it
Speaker 1: has to be San Pedro, then I start thinking like
Speaker 1: everybody's been thinking and I need to think. Okay, I've
Speaker 1: got four sites, how do I connect them? I have
Speaker 1: a fifth artifact that needs to somehow come into that,
Speaker 1: plus this halo of things. How would those fit together? Well,
Speaker 1: trying to connect the two on the West to the
Speaker 1: two on the east, on the southeast. Is that one
Speaker 1: trail or do we have two trails or more trails?
Speaker 1: You know, the funny thing about this rock art that
Speaker 1: I brought up earlier is there's a signature on the
Speaker 1: side of the Rock and it looks it's scratched in
Speaker 1: and it looks like it says t o b a
Speaker 1: R and that was one of the captain, one of
Speaker 1: the lieutenants, uh, Pedro Da Tovar, and uh, I think
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to know this. How does one
Speaker 1: date stuff it scratched into a rock? You don't. I
Speaker 1: mean if it's scratched in. Basically, on the rock art
Speaker 1: that I showed you can see that some of it
Speaker 1: is older than others because some has regained some weathering
Speaker 1: on it right. So if you have one rock you
Speaker 1: can tell by some is older because it's more weather
Speaker 1: and some is fresher. Some of it overlies older stuff.
Speaker 1: So that's one way. It's all relative dating. But also,
Speaker 1: as I was kind of discussing earlier, uh, if you
Speaker 1: analyze this rock art in relation to a codex from Cortes,
Speaker 1: the Cortes period in Mexico, you can see that the dress, shoes,
Speaker 1: hat and everything is just like what cortes is wearing
Speaker 1: in one of the images. So Um. So basically that's
Speaker 1: another way to data as well. Now, that's not going
Speaker 1: to convince everybody, and not everybody is going to be
Speaker 1: convinced that the signature says Tobar. There's also a cross
Speaker 1: above it, which is what Spaniards did when they were
Speaker 1: signing their name and documents and writing documents on paper.
Speaker 1: So I mean, if we just had that, then I'd
Speaker 1: say maybe some natives saw that, saw the expedition in
Speaker 1: a different valley and carved it when they got home.
Speaker 1: But we have coronado artifacts associated with it, uh, and
Speaker 1: we have these clearings. So it looks like it's campsite.
Speaker 1: Now it's possible that it's a side route or a
Speaker 1: second route. We know that Pedro Tovar went on other
Speaker 1: side trips. He took a detachment and went and discovered
Speaker 1: other places or inspected other places and so on. People
Speaker 1: were already there, so it wasn't discovered. But uh, so
Speaker 1: it's very likely that when they were coming through they
Speaker 1: were looking for an alternate route and he may have
Speaker 1: gone off. So it's possible. So that's the third possibility.
Speaker 1: We have two routes. We have a route that UH,
Speaker 1: dips down to the southeast and connects them all, or
Speaker 1: we have one route to the northeast from where we're at,
Speaker 1: and this is a side trip where he went to
Speaker 1: look to see if there was gold or water. You know, uh,
Speaker 1: we may be able to tell by the time I finish,
Speaker 1: but at a certain point I'm going to stop looking
Speaker 1: and somebody else is gonna have to fill in and
Speaker 1: I get to tell the story I the way I want,
Speaker 1: if I'm the one looking for the sites and finding them.
Speaker 1: Will you stay on? Will you stay on Coronado till
Speaker 1: you die, or you think you'll get onto something, get
Speaker 1: onto something else? Well, I'm planning to live to a
Speaker 1: D and twenty, so I think by the time I
Speaker 1: get to a hundred I'm probably gonna stop looking, but
Speaker 1: you're gonna stay on the Coronado deal as long as
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me. That's how I do things. I
Speaker 1: don't have to do this, I do this because it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at the top of my career.
Speaker 1: I've spent all this time learning how to do this well, uh,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing I'd rather do in retirement. This is
Speaker 1: kind of my golf game and uh, I'm not really
Speaker 1: especially in the Gulf. So it's my way of uh,
Speaker 1: entertaining myself, keeping my mind engaged, staying healthy mentally when
Speaker 1: I'm out in the field. It keeps me healthy and
Speaker 1: physically it's good exercise, Um, and it's so intriguing. It's
Speaker 1: for me. You know, the people in the Coronado expedition.
Speaker 1: Someone went to get rich and everything, but everybody was
Speaker 1: kind of on an adventure, which is unfortunate for the
Speaker 1: native people. That's kind of what modern tourism is like.
Speaker 1: In a way. We kind of damage cultures as we
Speaker 1: go and embark on our adventures. But Um, but in
Speaker 1: a way this is an adventure for me. I'm discovering
Speaker 1: new things. Uh, it's every day is an adventure. I mean,
Speaker 1: people the crew keeps saying the site keeps giving it's
Speaker 1: amazing what we thought it was and how it keeps
Speaker 1: growing and all this interesting UH knowledge and artifacts that
Speaker 1: keep coming out that allow us to enrich the story
Speaker 1: and as long as it keeps doing that and as
Speaker 1: long as people keep giving me access landowners, and as
Speaker 1: long as we keep finding things, and as long as
Speaker 1: I continue to have volunteers who are as enthusiastic and
Speaker 1: dedicated as they are, I'll just keep doing it until
Speaker 1: I get tired of it or I run out of money.
Speaker 1: You know, this is all self supported, although I did
Speaker 1: have a couple of donors recently donate to the research
Speaker 1: part and then we've had some donors donate to the film,
Speaker 1: documentary film, but we need a lot more donors to
Speaker 1: make that happen. So tell and conclusion, tell us how
Speaker 1: you know if someone wants to volunteer or lens support, like,
Speaker 1: how was the best way to go learn about what
Speaker 1: you have going on, connect with you or your people. If, if,
Speaker 1: if someone, someone's like Hey, I got one of them
Speaker 1: bronze hats. Well, if they have one of those, they
Speaker 1: can talk to you guys and get my phone number directly,
Speaker 1: but it's better be real, not one of those Uh
Speaker 1: tinfoil ones, Um uh. Well, I have a web page
Speaker 1: that has some contact information on there, and the film,
Speaker 1: Uh documentary films by Professional Documentary Film Crew Francis Kasi
Speaker 1: Films and uh they she has a web page. Uh
Speaker 1: and uh do you have a title for that yet
Speaker 1: or for the film? No, we haven't decided. But we
Speaker 1: have cornado films ll LC, and there's ways that people
Speaker 1: can donate to that, either directly, if they don't need
Speaker 1: a tax deduction, or through from the heart productions, which
Speaker 1: is a nonprofit. So you can get a tax credit
Speaker 1: for that. And then I have an organization that I'm
Speaker 1: working with that UH takes the money in for the
Speaker 1: research and would take sizeable sums in or small sums
Speaker 1: for the film, without taking anything off the top. So
Speaker 1: there's a variety of ways to do it and I
Speaker 1: would appreciate it because, like I said, I totally self funded,
Speaker 1: except for these more recent donations that have coming in.
Speaker 1: People are really getting thrilled about what we're finding and
Speaker 1: so on. You gotta have some universities beating your door
Speaker 1: down now. Oh No, they're jealous. Um, don't forget to
Speaker 1: mention you have a youtube channel with some interesting like
Speaker 1: a little about dating, like you're asking like how do
Speaker 1: you know when you're looking at whatever? Just mentioned that,
Speaker 1: and then also your academia web page with like all
Speaker 1: of your papers, books. I mean there's so much open
Speaker 1: information that we could where we can go to read
Speaker 1: your work right. So on Youtube, it's just under my name.
Speaker 1: You can find it and there's some corn on that
Speaker 1: other stuff, D e n I, and then s e
Speaker 1: y m o U R, and then the academia page
Speaker 1: the same. It's under independent UH researcher. I think. Also
Speaker 1: with research gate, same thing, although that has fewer articles.
Speaker 1: You can download articles for free on there. You don't
Speaker 1: have to pay to get on UH. And then I
Speaker 1: have a Web page that I'm just starting up. The
Speaker 1: old one I forgot to pay for and it's kind
Speaker 1: of a funk, so I'm starting to do Um, it
Speaker 1: needed to be updated anyway. Yeah, and all your listeners,
Speaker 1: I will link to this and all of her I'll
Speaker 1: link to all of this in the show notes and Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the film is really what we're looking for funding
Speaker 1: for now. I just saw a rough cut of it
Speaker 1: the other day. Oh, it was fabulous. I was scared
Speaker 1: because I we archaeologists like to be behind the camera,
Speaker 1: not in front, and so I was prepared to be
Speaker 1: really embarrassed. They did in a phenomenal ask as a
Speaker 1: host seriously because you care, but not too much. It's
Speaker 1: like a sweet spot. Well, thank you, I've got I've
Speaker 1: got one more last question. It might be the most
Speaker 1: important one, to be honest. I mean in the film
Speaker 1: Indiana Jones and the last crusade, that movie opens with
Speaker 1: River Phoenix as a young Indiana Jones, stumbling onto some
Speaker 1: grave robbers, if you want to call him that, finding
Speaker 1: a crucifix from the Coronado Expedition, and then he has
Speaker 1: to he tries to protect it and escapes. I'm just
Speaker 1: wondering if you two have ever, uh, protected any of
Speaker 1: your fines by by jumping onto a passing circus train
Speaker 1: and falling into a pit of snakes, leading into your
Speaker 1: lifelong phobia of snakes that will follow you over the restaurant.
Speaker 1: I do have a lifelong phobia of rattle snakes because
Speaker 1: I've run into probably a thousand of them since I
Speaker 1: was a little tiny girl. Um, I did find Coronado's
Speaker 1: cross on our site. One day. Two of my crew
Speaker 1: members called me over and they had an ice chest
Speaker 1: right there, so I kind of knew something was up.
Speaker 1: Metal detective and they had planted this Coronado's cross with
Speaker 1: fake jewels on it. Yeah, so, normally we don't plant
Speaker 1: things like that because it can distract, you know, but
Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty funny. So so I wrote
Speaker 1: to Harrison Ford asking if he would contribute, because here's
Speaker 1: the real, you know, real deal here. Uh, and I
Speaker 1: never heard back from his agent. But Um, if you're
Speaker 1: out there, you know we need funding for the film.
Speaker 1: We have an Emmy Award winning director, uh, and so on.
Speaker 1: So that's great. Yeah, so look forward to seeing it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. Good luck. Thank you. Thanks for having me
Speaker 1: stay in touch with Karin. So you know, we can
Speaker 1: have like an update in a year or two. Sure. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and then maybe, uh, if Steve decide to not claim
Speaker 1: artifacts from mother dig sides, you can go volunteer with
Speaker 1: Danny and satisfier, like an antiquities looter. We checked. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, some people have like a devil and a angel.
Speaker 1: I got like an antiquities looter on one shoulder and
Speaker 1: archeology and I got two dragons here gone and snakes,
Speaker 1: none of that. None of that. Well, thanks. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: so much coming. I hope some people reach out and
Speaker 1: they might have a hot tip, because I could I
Speaker 1: could picture some dude out hunting antelope or desert big
Speaker 1: horns and he'd be like, you know, I've seen something
Speaker 1: like that one time. Well, we'll name the side after
Speaker 1: somebody if they come forward with something, an expedition. In fact,
Speaker 1: I've already promised that to one guy who you're sweeting
Speaker 1: the deal. You don't get to keep it, put on
Speaker 1: your mantle, but on the map it will be. Well.
Speaker 1: If they found it on private land, they do get
Speaker 1: to keep it, but we'd hope that if they realize
Speaker 1: what it is, that upon their death or sooner, they
Speaker 1: would agree to put it somewhere where it can be available,
Speaker 1: you know. So everybody keep your eyes peeled. Brass helmets, cannons,
Speaker 1: crosses with jewels, the jeweling crossed cross. If you find that,
Speaker 1: Danny Seymour as the person you talk to, not Indiana Jones.
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone,