WEBVTT - Ep. 369: The Real Indiana Jones 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.760 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.640 severely bug bitten and, in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:23.360 you can't predict anything presented by first like creating proven, 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.840 versatile hunting apparel, from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:35.640 for every hunt. First Light, go farther, stay longer. All right, buddy, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.720 we have we have such an interesting guest today that 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.120 we're gonna skip all the normal juvenile bullshit we talked 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.120 about on top, thank goodness. Yeah, and he's like, I'm out. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.400 I'm believing now. This is my kind of podcast. Actually, 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.680 gonna skip all the juvenile all the things about a 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.120 guy that wrote in all this stuff about falling into 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:59.040 a pit toilet, what have you, tough meat, I don't know. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.600 That made waves, though, that pit toilet trying to get 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:07.240 punt gun shells manufactured. Like none of that, none of that. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.040 The special guests I'm talking about is Denny J Seymour 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.959 Ph d who, Danny, I'm gonna tell you how I 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.520 know about you. I'M gonna tee it up in two ways. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:23.760 All Right, uh, now and then it's something will happen 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.280 in the news and five, six, ten people will all 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:35.919 send me the same article. Okay, Um, the article about 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:44.679 the discovery of a battle site, of a fight, a 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:52.480 skirmish Um from the mid fif hundreds in southern Arizona 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:58.200 between the members of the Coronado Expedition in native tribes 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.480 in the area. Uh, a lot of my friends thought 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.480 that would tickle my fancy and I read the article 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.519 and I sent it to Krin and I said we 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.440 need to find this person. I thought you'd say no 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.400 for some reason. You know what? I thought you'd say 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.239 no because you're being so secrety in the article. That's 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:23.200 how we archaeologists are to protect the sites. But then, 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.600 you know, then we talked and it was good. Well, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.400 I'm still in the middle of research and normally I 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.640 don't divulge until I'm done. So normally it would be 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.400 five years into the project at least before I would 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.799 tell anyone other than the crew about what we found. When? Well, 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:44.919 in this case we did because we needed to raise 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.520 money for the documentary film and also research. So uh, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.200 so we decided to go ahead and announce it sooner, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.320 and so with that comes a lot of you know, 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.520 awareness and people say, Oh, you need to make sure 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.240 people are not following you to the site. Well, so 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.359 far nobody's done that, but you've still kept it under wraps. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.880 Oh yeah, people don't know where it is yet, except 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.919 for the crew, and they're scorning the secrecy. I mean, 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.200 our guys will find out a challenge. You won't be 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.760 done recording this and they'll be they're digging around. Well, 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.320 if you come you have to help dig. So so 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:20.839 here's the way I want to set up. So someone 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.080 might be sitting there and we've teased this episode on 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.240 previous podcast episodes, but I'm gonna set up and then 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.080 you're gonna you can, you can take off and run on. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:34.320 I set up to the best my ability. Um, why 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.200 I'm interested in the Coronado expedition, and it has to 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:38.480 do with and I want and I want you to 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.880 link this all together. I learned about the Coronado expedition 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.600 when I was reading about what I view to be 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:51.800 kind of like perhaps the craziest story in early American history, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:58.080 which is the saga of Kabayza Day Vaca. Yep, Cabeza, 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:03.440 day Vaca. What year was at the net Navarrez expedition? Yeah, thirties, early. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:11.160 This guy goes up a lot of hundreds of them, Spaniards, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:17.240 going land in Florida and eventually getting a shipwreck get 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.719 killed off. Bad things happened to him, to the point 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:26.560 where three of these guys walk. Four of them walk 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:33.680 over the course of years, spending time in captivity with tribes, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.920 spending time with tribes thinking that they're sort of like 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.280 healers and semi deities. They're eating milkshakes made out of 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:49.400 people's ashes and they walk all the way to Mexico. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:55.720 It's like becomes slaves, but at one point Cabas Day 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.400 VOCA becomes the first European to lay eyes on a Buffalo, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:07.400 probably around Austin or Dallas Texas. That's why that was 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.120 my intersection with him, because I was researching that subject. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:17.800 That led me to some passages from the coronado expedition 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:23.479 where they make it up into Kansas Um and they're 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:29.000 describing not only the hunters they encounter and and out 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.039 of the Coronado expedition comes the only reference to something 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.159 that I've ever read in my entire life. They describe people, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:40.280 they describe buffalo hunters who are skinning buffalo and sharping 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:45.120 their flint knives on their teeth. I've never read that anywhere, 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:50.280 and he describes the the down wind end of a lake, 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:56.719 the bank being formed by just bones of stuff that 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.080 would drown or whatever in the lake and wind up 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.839 being there or like various members of that expedition. And 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.640 that's really as much as I knew about the whole thing. 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.560 I didn't know where they were, but I remember being 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:13.200 shocked by the fact the Coronado was on the American 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:19.679 Great Plains two and forty years prior to Lewis and Clark, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.400 which should be the difference between us standing here now 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.039 and the French and Indian war. That really puts it 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.480 in perspective, doesn't and what in the hell right were 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.960 they doing up there exactly? So your job now is 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.200 to Um like what were they doing up there and, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:42.840 if you don't mind like a little bit, make the 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:50.080 connection between the how the conquissator rumor mill spins like 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:55.200 how cobs a vodka could starve his way across America. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.440 And somehow this turns into like Oh yeah, but cities 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.640 of gold old if I had just gone another day's 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.480 journey to the blank. You know well. You know the 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.400 connection between Caves Devaka and the three people with him 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.679 and the Cornado expedition is that when they got back 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.480 they had this incredible story to tell and they had 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.480 heard of people to the north who had cotton and 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.480 multi story buildings and metal bells and so on, and 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:31.400 there were already rumors in European society and also in uh, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:36.600 the Mexico area and so on, about seven cities and 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.240 this the, you know, the origin place of the Aztecs. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:44.520 And then in UM UM in European society there was 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.240 there were stories about places of riches and so on. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.200 CABSIVACA never actually said there was gold or didn't expect 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:58.680 that there would be uh, but there were rumors in 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:05.120 you know how rumors developed, because basically they had found gold, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.840 lots of it, in the Inca area and in the 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.320 Aztec area, in central Mexico and in Peru, and so 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.440 they kind of expected that there would be riches elsewhere 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.320 on the continent. So it really wasn't that unexpected that 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.880 that kind of imagination would start going wild and that 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.880 rumors would start. Now a stave on the black more 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.200 slave at the time was with Kabasi DEVACA and he 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.640 was the one that was selected. Apparently he was freed 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.320 before going uh. He was selected to lead FRA Marcos 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.959 Deniz in thirty nine north to do a reconnaissance and 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:49.720 uh Coronado himself, escus de Coronado, was responsible for outfitting him, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.640 and the idea is he was supposed to go ahead 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.120 and see what was up there and see if the 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.440 rumors about gold in the seven cities of ce blow 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.040 and so on, we're true. Can you tell you what 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.080 that what that seven cities of Sebla? You encountered that? 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:09.880 What does that mean? Well, there were rumors of seven 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:14.600 cities and of course seven is important in the Christian 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:21.040 religion for a variety of reasons. Um and Um, the 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.120 Aztecs and others had stories from ancient times about having 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.640 originated from the North uh, and so everybody had a 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:34.120 little piece of, you know, the rumor, the story that 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.679 the imaginative myth to put together. And so basically it 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:45.600 was connected to Sibila or Zuni. Uh. They first went 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:50.560 to Howieku, which is among the Zuni Pueblos uh, and 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.600 that's where they thought it was. So that was the focus. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.640 So they got there and realized there was no gold 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.640 and then they kept pursuing it elsewhere. They were looking 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.120 for go all they were looking for other things as well, 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.000 and they well, they say looking for I mean they 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.600 were fixing to go take it. Yes, they were just 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.720 like in central Mexico and in UH, South America. But see, 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.280 they weren't just looking for gold either. So they were 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:19.120 looking for high enough and native population, one so that 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.800 they could convert them. That's what the priests wanted to 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.240 do and that was kind of one of the things 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.280 that they were charged with. But they wanted enough, high 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.680 enough native population that they could exploit them for tribute. 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:33.520 That's how they were going to get rich and they 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.959 were going to set up in Comiendas, and that's one 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.760 of the reasons that the expedition was considered a failure, 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.240 because there weren't enough high enough densities of natives for 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.040 all of the high ranking Spaniards who went along to 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.360 have an in Comienda have um a large enough area 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.400 with high enough native population that could support them with 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.720 tribute payments and so on. A another reason, apparently, is 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.520 they thought that this was connected, that are part of 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.000 the world was connected to Asians, so they hoped to 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.680 find a route through so they could establish markets there. 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.199 One of the interesting things that people have been focusing 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:19.400 for ages on the gold aspect. So historians more recently 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.480 have been saying, well, it's not really the gold they 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:26.280 were after, but in fact our main site, the first 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.040 site we found, is at a major gold source. So 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.480 the people who got left behind what the first site 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.400 we found is not only a battle site but it 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.640 was a it's called the villa of San Hieronimo and 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.760 it was the third rendition of that where they left 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.720 some of the Spaniards behind as a supply base, but 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:49.360 also a villa in Spanish is town, and so basically 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:54.040 it was the formation of a town and interestingly it's 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.040 at a gold source. It's at one of the best 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.600 gold sources in the area. Can you remember to talk 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:04.440 a bit about how sadistic the people that ran that? Oh, yeah, 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.839 I'll remember. If I don't remember, remind me. But here's 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.240 one more thing about the gold. It turns out that 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.600 we have the satellite of other Coronado artifacts around. They're 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.360 not really sites, they're isolated things so far, but two 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.559 of them are at other locations where gold was so 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.320 the people that got left behind me have actually got 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.520 more gold out of this area than the people who 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.040 went forward, and they were resentful that they got left 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.320 behind because they wanted to go and and find all 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.160 these riches and have all this success and be part 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.160 of the exploration, the adventure and so on. But they 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.360 were working gold deposits. So there was also a lot 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.960 of stuff in their correspondence they called they called buffalo 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.120 cattle or Bison. They call them cattle, and they would 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:55.560 throw out that there could be they would throw out 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.959 that that could be like an industry of exploitation. In fact, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:05.200 Juanharamo in his account mentioned that and uh talked about 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:10.480 how you could get back to, uh, new Spain, back 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.640 and forth via a shorter route to exploit that as 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.440 a resource, and that is what he thought was the 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.880 most valuable resource in the area, other than all of 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.000 these other things that I just mentioned. Yeah, they just 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.880 encountered staggering numbers of them. Yes, so how many? How many? 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.160 Would it makes sense, before we get too far into 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.760 the actual coronado expedition, just to back up, just to 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:36.199 talk about like the Vera Cruz and like Spanish settlements 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.720 down in Mexico and just really established that before we 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.200 move north. Uh. Yeah, you mentioned that they had been 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.000 striking it rich here and there. Oh, sure. So, of course, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.080 when Cortez came into the Mexico area, he actually established 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.880 downsite or via at Vera Cruz and use that as 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.240 a base. And what he did, and sorry, what year 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.440 was that? That was fifteen. I can't remember exactly. Fifteen, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.599 nineteen twenties, something like that. Um. So, he established a 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.480 town site and established a town council and everything. And 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.680 the reason he did that, did that was that he 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:22.800 could separate himself from his sponsor in Cuba, and that way, uh, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.080 they voted him as the leader and so on, and he, 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.000 as a result, was able to uh, correspond directly with 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.880 the king, and so that's how he was able. I 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.920 mean it was a political move which was really kind 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.840 of interesting exactly. and Uh so it worked out really 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.600 well for him and it didn't work out well for 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:43.880 the natives that were in the area. But bottom line 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.600 is that was like incredibly rich. And you know, you 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.720 mentioned before about people being where did this rumor come 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.080 from and so on. Well, think about it. The first 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.120 encounters in the central Mexico area, it was so rich. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.680 People made I mean they were like billionaires all of 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.200 a sudden, overnight, you know, I mean within a few 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.680 months just from ransack and the gold out of I 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.480 mean it was just incredible. And also in Peru, the 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.080 Incan Empire, and they were like taking finished gold, though 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.120 they weren't taken. I mean I'm sure they probably got 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.640 into mining, but they were like seizing, like taking gold 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.400 that had already been used to form form into totems 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.400 and monetary units. And well, that is true. So, first 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.080 of all, gold wasn't the only thing they got. There 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.120 was a lot of silver and other other items of value. 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.000 But with respect to the gold, yeah, they had idols. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.360 They had religious idol. It shouldn't use the word idols 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.680 because that's a Catholic way of looking at uh, you know, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:49.880 native uh sacred objects and so on. But basically they 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.400 took there were rooms that were plastered with gold and 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.960 they pulled that off. They took Um images uh that 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.760 we would call saints today in the Catholic religion. They 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.840 took them out of the rooms and pyramids and so 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.680 on and melted those down. But they also had people 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.320 uh mining, and you know, even Columbus did that, uh, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:16.440 and we see images of Um, you know, the miners 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.800 working and so on and uh, there's actually one image 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:25.640 that was created. That shows UH and uprising by natives 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:30.320 pouring liquid gold down to Spaniards through, I mean because 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.360 and and that's that's brutal. But the fact is is 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.320 they were chopping off people's hands and noses down there, 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.480 uh for not either not producing enough gold or for 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.800 rising up, or for anything that they thought of as minor. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.800 The amount of body like when you get into the 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.400 corn atole that tradition, the amount of body parts getting 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.640 removed from people as punishments is just staggering. It is, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.600 it really is. And normally I thought that most of 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.840 that happened down south, meaning south of the border, the 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:07.440 current border, uh, when via Um, you know, when Cortes 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.280 and Columbus and so on, we're doing their thing, and 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.760 also in South America. But it's amazing how much of 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.159 it occurred up here. And the thing that surprised me 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.800 is that on our site it actually occurred. Now that 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.280 we know where this Um site is. That's mentioned in 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.640 the documents and we know where it is. It's amongst 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.000 the Atham uh formerly known some of some authom are 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.200 called Pema. They were all called Pima or various other 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.080 names in the past. But Um, I work with people 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.720 there near to son at San Javier, the San Javier 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.960 district of the tone of octom nation, and they are 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.919 the direct descendants of the people who met Coronado at 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.040 this site. And when I told them about this, it 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.639 was really difficult for me to tell them, because how 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.080 do you tell somebody that their ancestors were treated so poorly? 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:58.120 But it's also, Um, uh, empowering in a way, uh, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:03.320 because it's a way for them to understand some of 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.280 the trauma that they now experience and where that comes from. 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:11.200 It has much greater depth than even they thought, perhaps 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.159 because nobody thought that Coronado actually had much of an 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.199 encounter with the autum in southern Arizona. It's kind of 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.320 a backwater area that you don't read about it if 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.680 you read coronado documents. Basically they just passed through their stories. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.280 They always pretty much go up to sea blowers any 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.640 end and skipped this whole area. Well, it turns out 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.120 that the area where this site is, this first site 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.560 I found, is one of the most important coronado sites and, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.199 like I said, it's called the Vo San Hieronimo and 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:45.320 the atom. We're able to successfully repel the Spaniards. So 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.920 it really is the first successful native American rebellion in 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.399 the continental us, because they didn't come back. The Spaniards 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.879 didn't come back for a hundred and forty years. That 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.200 was enough time. Do you thought you really whooped them? 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.840 For sure. I mean think about it. They came and 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.719 we ran them off and now they're gone. Well, and 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.960 it was only twelve years for the Pueblo revolt, which 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.520 is considered the most successful one up to this point. So, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.760 but the amount of pride, like the Atham are considered 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.920 later in time, they're discussed as being peaceful and docile, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.359 and I've always asked my auth and friends, do you 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.920 think that's because a colonialism? The answers I don't know. Well, 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.919 this shows that. My other research that shows that they 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.840 were the best warriors in the sixteen, eighties and nineties 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.240 and so on, shows that the extended even deeper in time. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.000 So they take incredible pride in knowing that their ancestors 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.400 were phenomenal warriors, the best warriors in the region. They 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.000 were respected by they were feared by the Apache in 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.840 the sixteen, eighties and nineties. So, uh, the thing I 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:52.119 didn't realize until I was reading a book about Coronado recently. Um, 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.720 I've never quite put it together that these these people 0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:00.680 that we call concussed doors were kind of like semi freelance, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:06.920 like swashbucklers or pirates, right, like they had they reported 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.120 to the king, but they had personal stuff to gain. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.560 It's not like, if you imagine the US military, right 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:18.240 goes and does some action, it's entirely in service of 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:23.000 the government. Meaning if you go and sack Saddam Hussein's palace, 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:27.800 you don't keep half the ship and send half of 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.800 it right, you don't get okay, you guys will divvy 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.320 it up. You guys keep half, the government keeps half. Well, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.800 the Spanish, Spanish government didn't keep half, they kept a fifth. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.840 That's so. But these guys were like highly incentivized. Right, 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.040 they were, but understand that. First of all, they were 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.320 incentivized and that's one reason you have the muster rule 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.840 at the beginning, and that's one reason why, uh, they 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:56.280 put so many horses, livestock, armor, weapons, people into it. 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.840 Because what is that? What is sorry, what is that 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.720 word that you use? Muster roll. So basically it's everybody 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.800 lined up and said what they what they were going 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.200 to bring along. Okay, and and that got recorded by 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.760 a scribe and the idea was that they were buying 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.160 in in this sense. So, in other words, if they're investing, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:21.040 they're investing. So if they had another uh, you know, 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:27.760 Aztec or Incan type discovery, they would have uh partition 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.040 the find the wealth based on what they contributed. Okay, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.719 so it really was an investment. Yeah, like Hey, we're 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:39.320 gonna ride up north see what we can sack and 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:44.320 locate and find an exploit and develop. And who wants 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.960 in and what are you willing to kick in on 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:52.320 putting this trip together? Well, that's a somewhat irreverend, reverend, 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.000 crude way to say it, but that's really what it 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.320 came down to. But I don't know, they draped it 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:03.280 in okay, okay, I don't want to go down the 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.960 revisionist path, right, okay, I'm interested in context. They draped 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.800 it in God and country. However, I think it was 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.520 a much thinner with the concussed the doors, and you 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:16.639 can correct me if I'm if you don't agree with this. 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.440 I think the CONQUISS the doors there was a much 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:27.520 thinner veneer than there were with other godden country actions 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:32.600 that happened on the continent years later, like, uh, right now, 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.800 with our oil and gas pursuits in other countries. I mean, yeah, 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.880 I think a thinner veneer. Yeah. So, so the thing 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.480 is keep in mind that we can look at it 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:48.360 that way because we have years between us and them, right. 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:51.919 But understand, and this is really important to understand, and 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.000 I'm not being an apologist by any means, but they 0:22:54.000 --> 0:23:00.119 were following the rules. Okay, so they were charged by 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.119 the Viceroy and the King to go and convert people. 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:08.439 They wanted to convert all the natives Catholicism, and also 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.560 the idea was to expand the territory that was under 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:17.119 the king's charge. Okay, so the expand the Spanish empire. 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.760 So those really were their goals. And in the meantime, 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.359 since it was privately funded, they wanted to get returned 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.680 for their investment and then, of course, the crown would 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.280 get a percentage of that. But they were following the 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:33.200 rules the whole time. Okay, so part of the rules. 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:36.280 and well, I mean, but then allow them got put 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:42.120 on trial later, they did, but only one got actually convicted. Yeah, 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.720 and the reason he did is because he didn't follow 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:48.320 the rules. So when they went into a native village, 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:53.879 they read the requirement, the request or whatever, and it 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:59.760 had a specific set of statements, that part of which 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:01.520 are and I can read a little bit if you want, 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.480 but basically, uh, you need to acquiesce to our desires, 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.320 you have to accept our king, our pope and our 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:11.040 way of life and you have to do what we 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.639 want you to do, including giving tribute, and if you don't, 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:16.200 then we're gonna come and take your wives and daughters, 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:18.400 we're gonna kill you, we're gonna Enslave you and it's 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.040 all your fault. That's basically what it says. And so, 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.879 first of all, they probably didn't fully understand. But but 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:28.240 you forgot the promise, Um, your problems with your enemies 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.440 will be over. Yeah, yes, exactly, so they so what 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:34.680 they promised was that they would be converted, they would 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.120 be protected against their enemies and so on. UH, and 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.480 I'm forgetting something there too, but bottom line is, uh, 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:45.760 the trade off wasn't uh favorable at all to the natives. 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:51.160 They were doing fine how they were, but the Spaniards 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:57.399 wanted to slip themselves in this higher level echelon, just 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:02.160 like pretty much did, and in Mexico, for example. Um, 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:07.880 and they took Montezuma captive and kind of used him 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:10.600 to rule the people for a while and to control 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:12.680 it so they could get as much as they want 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.560 and basically as a hostage. And they tried that in 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:17.720 the Sibyl area and it didn't work. For actually in 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:22.119 the in the Albuquerque area, and it didn't work too well. Uh, 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:25.440 but they they felt that they were following the rules. 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:29.480 And the one guy that got convicted, Um, he didn't 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:33.879 follow the rules. Like, for example, uh, he suggested that 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:36.960 the Pueblo they had a siege and they suggest he 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:40.360 suggested that the people surrender and he promised them, uh, 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:44.080 favorable passage, in other words, he wasn't gonna Kill Them All. Well, 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.879 he ended up burning something like a hundred of them 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:51.000 at the stake and stabbing lancing. He made them drive 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.360 the I think he made them place their own stakes. 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:58.440 I don't remember for sure. Them Alive. Yeah, I mean 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:02.560 it's it's pretty nasty, but that's why he was that's 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:07.800 why he was the only one that got Um, basically jailed. 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:11.399 In essence, it really wasn't jail because he got a 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:14.960 pretty light sentence. Yeah, but how many people are? How 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:17.199 many people are on this how many people are on 0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:19.680 this group of folks that end up like like the 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:24.600 group that ends up winding up in Kansas and you know, yeah, 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.440 so through Texas and Kansas. Like what kind of what 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:30.240 kind of like what's this look like coming across the landscape? Well, 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:34.080 that's the really interesting thing about this. The latest numbers 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:37.879 historians have come up with is about people, maybe three hundred, 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:42.520 fifty or four hundred Europe Spaniards, you know, Europeans, uh, 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:46.080 and then their support people, slaves and domestic servants, and 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:52.760 then hundred or so, uh, native Mexican Indians. Okay, Native Mexicans. 0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:59.439 So Uh. So basically two thousand hundred people going across 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:02.600 the landscape, which is huge. I mean it's just but 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:08.000 what they think? Um, it looks like in the documents that, 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:10.639 if you read them a certain way and very carefully, 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:15.080 it actually says that first they sent the advance guard 0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:19.200 ahead with Coronado. That included, I think it was eighty 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:23.520 or so Spaniards and their support people, including some native Mexicans, 0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:25.719 and then the second group came two weeks later so 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.000 that water and pasture wouldn't run out, and so they 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:31.160 wouldn't overrun native communities, but they also had a bunch 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:34.199 of captains and it looks like they were broken up 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:39.320 into smaller groups. And we have now. Two years ago 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:43.440 there were no core no coronado sites between Sinaloa, Kul 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:46.760 con and so on and UH Sibila. Now I have 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:49.680 four in southern Arizona and you just saw US real 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.160 quick where those the two sizes that you just mentioned 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:55.960 are in like in current day town terms in the US. 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:59.000 So one of them is kind of buy no gallus 0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:03.200 south of Tucson, Arizona, on the Santa Cruz River, which 0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:05.359 is west of where everybody thinks the route came up. 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:10.639 So yeah, so let me go over there first and 0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:15.080 then remind me. So everybody, for years, most like of 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:19.239 historians and archaeologists, have thought that Coronado came up the 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:22.600 Sonora River in Mexico and then up the San Pedro, 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:26.679 down the San Pedro River in southern Arizona before turning northeast. 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.920 Imagine that route being kind of the center of a 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:35.800 page or something. Go to the left or to the West. Um, 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:40.080 and the first site we found is on the Santa 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:44.000 Cruz River to the West. The second site not the 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:46.440 second one we found, but the second on the trail 0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.479 is on an intervening drainage. So we have two sites 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:53.320 now to the west of that center line of the 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:56.280 page where the San Pedro and Sonora rivers are. And 0:28:56.320 --> 0:29:00.200 then you go further east southeast, actually still all in 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:02.760 the United States, still in Arizona, and there's two sites 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.360 in the San Bernardino Valley, which is the farthest, farthest 0:29:07.680 --> 0:29:10.280 Um southeast you can go and still be in Arizona. 0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.240 So my job is to try to figure out how 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:17.240 do those fit? And right now we're at the point 0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:22.280 of Um intersecting with the San Pedro River. So the 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:25.400 question is, did they go north, did they go south 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:29.280 or did they go east? And I don't know yet. 0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:31.240 I'm in the process of figuring that out. That's the 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:33.080 next discovery we're going to make. But now we have 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:36.560 four sites uh in an area where we had none 0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:40.240 uh at the beginning of covid basically, how far, how 0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:43.640 far is? How far apart are those? Those, the first 0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:46.600 one and the ones way to the east, as the 0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:49.280 crow flies, are about a hundred miles apart. But they 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:51.520 went like you know, zig zag and stuff, so would 0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:56.880 be you know many days in between. So Um, you 0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:58.920 know one thing we forgot to talk about when we 0:29:58.920 --> 0:30:02.080 were talking about many people. Can you describe the amount 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:05.080 of livestock these guys carried with them? Yes, exactly. So 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:11.760 there were something like horses, they had cattle, they had pigs, 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:15.960 they had sheep. So thousands ahead of livestock. So honestly 0:30:15.960 --> 0:30:19.680 they just have to look insane to people, especially when 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:22.800 they get to the nomadic hunters and all of a 0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:26.120 sudden who you know, had never encountered us, to all 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:28.640 a sudden look and be like what do we have here? Well, UH, 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:31.440 a friend of mine has commented that. You know, it 0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:34.000 would be like during the civil war. You'd have natives 0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:38.000 sitting on these UH hillsides watching this, you know, parade 0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:40.400 go by, but you know it was broken probably into 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:43.800 distinct groups moving across the landscape. But one of the 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:45.520 ways that I've been able to find some of these 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:48.200 sites is think about it, and people have thought about 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:51.360 this before, but you gotta have a reliable source, a huge, 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:55.000 reliable source of water and pasture right because if you 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:59.440 don't stop and allow your livestock to eat every couple 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:01.800 of days of arding to ranchers they're gonna fall over. 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:03.840 You just can't go that fart now. They did. They 0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:06.960 did mistreat their animals, for sure. Many of them died 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:10.480 along the way, but bottom line is the kinds of 0:31:10.560 --> 0:31:15.080 water sources that I need to look for that they 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:19.760 would have need to have found to survive are in 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:22.320 limited areas, although there's enough of them that it could 0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:26.000 take me years to find more sites. I mean it's 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:28.040 it's pretty phenomenal that we have four now and we're 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:30.800 on the verge of finding the fifth. But do people still, 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:35.600 do your peers still think you're barking up the round tree? Um? 0:31:35.640 --> 0:31:40.440 Everybody who is a professional archaeologist and most historians agree 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:42.960 that I have Coronado. There's no question. We have more 0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:46.920 crossbow boltheads, which your diagnostic a coronado and go out 0:31:47.120 --> 0:31:50.440 long before the next European expedition or or big group 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:52.120 of people is in the area. We have more of 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:55.480 those than any other Coronado site known. Okay, so the 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:58.240 crossbow boltheads across the bow eraheads, we have seventy two 0:31:58.320 --> 0:32:00.560 or something now. So that's the end to ssputable. We 0:32:00.600 --> 0:32:05.200 have other coronado artifacts, including the cannon. So we have 0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:09.480 coronado there's no question what they're questioning without actually seeing 0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:12.160 the data. Is kind of the problem I have with 0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:16.480 it is that, uh, they're questioning how I'm putting the 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:19.080 route together. And as an archaeologist, I okay, I have 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:22.160 four sights, so you connect the dots and if I 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:24.680 can connect those with a trail, well that's one trail. 0:32:25.200 --> 0:32:28.720 But what they don't understand is I am trying to 0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:32.160 consider every option available as to how the route might 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:35.640 have gone. So I'm backing up with the documentary record 0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:38.600 and geography and stuff and I'm plotting it out and 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:40.720 trying to figure out what is every single option of 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:42.920 the way they could go, and then I'm checking those 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:47.560 areas on the ground. And so basically right now, like 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:49.720 I said, I'm at the San Pedro. Did they go north, 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:51.800 did they go south through did they go east? And 0:32:51.840 --> 0:32:55.160 I don't know the answer yet, but if they go north, 0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.960 that means that we have two trails because it doesn't 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.560 connect with the ones way far southeast in the San 0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:05.160 Bernardino Valley. See, isn't that kind of cool? If they 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.720 don't go north, then that means they probably went east 0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:11.000 and then southeast and it connects to this zigzag trail 0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:14.120 that just goes all over and then goes up, and 0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:16.360 so that's the verse. That's the point I'm at now. 0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:19.120 So the next not the next site. If I find 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.920 the next site where I think it is, then it 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:23.880 won't answer that question. I'm gonna have to find one 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:26.760 more to figure out whether they went north, because we 0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.120 know where the water was on the surface and that's 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:41.280 likely where they can't. I wanna talk about like how 0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:43.560 you find this stuff and what you're looking for and 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:45.520 sort of like what's there, and I have a million 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:49.480 questions about that. But let's do a quick feel mine, 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.880 a quick walk through on what happened to the expedition. 0:33:56.520 --> 0:34:00.320 Like they they get up to the seven cities of old, 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:03.320 which are seven cities of that's why it winds up 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:07.640 being what like six cities of not gold, and then 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:12.080 they get let on this wild goose chase. Yes, well, 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:18.319 one tactic was for natives to try to push the 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:24.640 people onto the next place. So when Europeans first to write, 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:28.120 even when combasative Acca went through native settlements when they 0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:33.520 were walking back to new Spain from Florida, they were 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:37.799 welcomed at first. There's this continent wide actually it's universal 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:42.040 throughout the world hospitality. When somebody new comes, if they're 0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:47.080 not war alike, if they're not, you know, hostile, you 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:50.920 welcome them in, you give them food, you celebrate with 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:52.200 them and so on, and then you send them on 0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:54.640 your way. And what we know from combasative ACCA is 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:57.920 that hundreds of people, sometimes from those villages, would go 0:34:57.960 --> 0:34:59.520 along with them until they got to the edge of 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.200 their territor Tory and then they'd stop and then Siva 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:05.440 could go on from there, and that actually happened on 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.239 the Coronado expedition as well. As some of these people 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:10.600 would serve as porters, some would just escort them and 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:12.960 so on. Do you think those folks were getting paid 0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:16.640 or I mean, like, why were they going along? In 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:20.520 some cases they were kidnapped by the Spaniards. In some 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:25.080 cases they went along because when when you wanted to 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:29.080 go a long distance, it helped to go in a 0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:33.719 large group so you didn't get attacked. Uh. And also, uh, 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:37.480 some of them, like the native Mexicans, were in some 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:42.160 cases paid. Um. That is kind of an interesting thing, 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.920 because some of them went along because they the native Mexicans, 0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.560 because their tribute that they owed the Spaniards was reduced 0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:53.280 or eliminated. That was kind of a payment to the community. 0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:58.200 Some of them were paid exactly Um, some of them 0:35:58.200 --> 0:36:02.200 were paid cash, some of them uh scholars think that 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:04.799 they were paid in the sense of that they got 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:10.160 to take slaves or captives amongst the groups that they 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.600 subdued and then they would take those as captive and 0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:17.360 that would raise their status within their communities, one because 0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:21.439 they had taken them in warfare and secondly because, uh 0:36:21.520 --> 0:36:25.440 then they would uh sacrifice them ceremonially and that was 0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:27.839 how they gained status and that was also part of 0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:30.680 their their culture and so on. So there's a whole 0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:35.560 range of reasons why native Mexicans went along, but it 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:39.960 seems that when you get up here into southern Arizona, 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:43.719 uh what like, there were two hundred principles that went 0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:47.799 along with Marcos Diniza, for for example, in sixty nine, 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:51.320 and they wanted to go to help them carry stuff, 0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:54.680 but also they wanted to go up to see Siebla, 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:57.279 to see Zooni, and they pretty much wanted to go 0:36:57.320 --> 0:36:59.000 with a group. It would be an exciting thing. I 0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:01.640 mean that's kind of why one of the reasons all 0:37:01.680 --> 0:37:03.960 these Spaniards went to. I mean, think about it. It's 0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:07.600 an adventure, you know. Uh, it would have been an adventure. 0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:09.920 And maybe in the first two hundred miles. And then 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.080 can you imagine the drudgery of just knowing that you 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:16.799 can't turn back on your own because it's too dangerous? Uh, 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:20.880 and you get lost, but you have to keep going forward. 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.160 Can you imagine waking up every morning after sleeping on 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:26.440 a rock on your back all night and realizing, what 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:28.840 did I get myself into? You know? Yeah, and the 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.960 next thing you know you're in Kansas. Oh, I know, incredible, 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:36.439 fighting the whole way. And yes, you and I think 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:38.359 and have these thoughts, but I don't know if they 0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:41.160 had those thoughts because maybe they slept on a rock, 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:45.279 you know, every day of their lives, just like we do. 0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:47.759 Have people dieing left and right to you know, right, 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:50.760 but that was the norm? Right? Well, but not really. 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.920 I mean for some, yes, no question, for the domestic 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:57.279 servants and slaves and, you know, people like that, for sure, 0:37:57.560 --> 0:38:00.480 but some of these were noblemen. There were some really 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:02.759 high status people there, and those are the ones that 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:06.680 mostly went with coronado in his advanced guard. But these were, 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:10.080 you know people who wore silks most of the time 0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:13.600 and shoes with no souls and stuff. In fact, I 0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:16.600 disagree with one of the historians who claims that they 0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:18.799 would have worn silks on the whole trip. And it's 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:21.360 like I've walked through that. You can see scratches on 0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:23.440 my arms right now because I was just out earlier 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:26.319 this week. I mean, I don't wear silks and my 0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:29.160 clothes get ruined, you know. So uh, and I have 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.560 to wear boots with um souls on them so that 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:35.920 thorns don't go through them and stuff. So they were uh, 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:38.759 they had a very rude awakening, I think. And think 0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:41.040 about it. They went through in the summer. So they 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:45.520 went through southern Arizona in June. UH, Marcus Niza was may, 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:47.879 but June is the hottest month and there's no rain. 0:38:48.080 --> 0:38:52.120 And I went out to the one of the sites, 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:54.920 the latest one I found in June, about the time 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:56.560 they would have been there, and it was one of 0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:59.319 the coolest days and I was just about sick from 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:01.960 the humidity in the heat because I was trying to 0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:06.440 find more evidence of our side. So you know, it's 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:08.359 but everybody says that it would have been cooler than 0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:11.560 and wetter than and I'm going to research that more 0:39:11.640 --> 0:39:15.000 because I'm not convinced of that. I don't know. We'll 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:18.400 see um, but you gotta do when you're researching it. 0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:20.719 You gotta put one of them brass helmets on. There 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.200 you go. It's like instant tinfoil. Is that what you suggesting? 0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:27.560 So talking about the wild goose chase, though, because this 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:29.719 is an interesting story, like it kind of involves like 0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:34.520 a guy says, Um, oh, I saw a bracelet made 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:37.479 of gold, he had it, and so they take those 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:41.279 guys captive and like where is the bracelet, and then 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:43.720 one of them tells them some crazy ass story about 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:49.759 how they should go to Kansas. That part of the 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:54.120 story really brings home to me how greedy they were 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:57.239 at that point, how desperate they were. I mean they 0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:00.360 hear the story about a gold bracelet that was probably hopper, 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:03.760 who knows what it was, and something else I can't remember, 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:06.320 and they like pursue this with such dog in this 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:08.480 it's like they take the guys and put them in 0:40:09.000 --> 0:40:12.840 chains and callers and keep them kidnapped for six months 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.880 in there, you know during the winter, and then end 0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.640 up garreting one guy and I mean it just it's 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:23.719 phenomenal what they do over a stinking little bracelet. But 0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:28.040 they thought that was the key to where they were 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:33.759 explained garretted, you know, like in a godfather too, I 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:35.400 think it is, when they killed the guy by just 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:37.640 putting a cable around his neck and then you twist 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:42.719 it with a stick or something. So this dude, this 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:45.239 dude is like, Oh man, the really good stuff is 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.000 like up and you know, out in the Buffalo Land, 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.040 and he they get there and he's like, oh no, no, 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.719 I think about it. It's a little more over that 0:40:53.760 --> 0:40:58.080 way right. Well, eventually they just get fed up, like 0:40:58.120 --> 0:41:04.520 this guy's full of ship and they had some disagreements 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:09.480 amongst their gods. But here's the fun thing. Some scholars 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:14.560 about three and maybe growing, think that one of their 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:16.680 guides was actually trying to take them over to the 0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:21.160 Mississippian area where there are large canoes, large fish, or 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:26.000 at least alligators, and uh, copper artifacts and other things. 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:30.640 And so it makes sense. Now. Just here's another aside. UH, 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:33.640 there's a Texas site known coronado side. It's been known 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:36.680 for some time, the Jimmy own site. Uh, it looks 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:39.399 like we may have one on either side of that now, 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:41.919 so we have a partial trail there. That still needs 0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:43.920 to be proved up, which I will be doing in 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.760 the next couple of years, but that's very exciting because 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:51.319 the route trajectory of those if they turn out, they 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:53.759 have artifacts that seem to be Coronado, but we just 0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:56.800 need to prove it up for sure. I'm pretty cautious 0:41:56.800 --> 0:41:59.440 about these types of things. But anyway, if this is 0:41:59.480 --> 0:42:02.719 the case, it does look like what they did was 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:06.359 really went in a secuity, circuitous type route, not only 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:09.480 probably to get them lost but also to starve them 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:11.320 out there, but also it looks like maybe he was 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:14.600 trying to take them to the Mississippian area where the 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:18.840 descriptions actually matched. They don't for the Caverra, purposely to 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.439 get them lost and to starve them. The guides were 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:27.719 doing this too. Just messies like there's an end of 0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:30.760 the guy they garritted, the guy they killed for misinformation, 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:34.280 is like celebrated right by some of the tribes because 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:38.279 he got him out. He was it's, you know, the 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:42.799 like a contemporary interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong, is 0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:44.279 that he was like going to lead him out out 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.200 of the Buffalo planes and lead him out into the 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:50.879 state planes of Texas and over they at all they 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:53.520 die out there. Well, and he actually kind of said, 0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:57.520 according to the Spanish, the Spaniards and the one document, 0:42:57.680 --> 0:42:59.880 is that he told the people at Calvera that if 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.960 you don't feed them and their horses, they're already weak 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:06.640 and you can kill them. And you know, and apparently 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:08.759 admitted that he was going around about way to get 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:11.359 lost and stuff. Who knows what's going on because, bottom line, 0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:15.439 there was this rivalry between the guides and we'll never 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:17.239 know for sure, but I will say that one of 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:19.640 our sites, two of our sites, in the San Bernardino 0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:23.840 Valley that is such a remote area it's like a moonscape. Okay, 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:28.000 it's got volcanic rock Malpais, UH, just out in the 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:32.440 middle of stink and nowhere, and the camp site that 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:35.200 we have it actually has some incredible rock art, Coronado 0:43:35.280 --> 0:43:38.799 Rock Art. It's very cool, uh, anyway, and and two 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:42.120 Coronado artifacts and some clearings. So we don't know how 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:45.880 big a group was there, but it's the first camp, 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:48.440 actual camp site. The other one's a town site, right, 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:53.760 and and the other ones are artifacts that we haven't 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:57.200 identified clearings yet and stuff, but this one has clearings, 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.279 artifacts and rock art and it is in such a 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:02.920 remote area. One of the guys on the Rock Art 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:04.960 is reaching out in front of him and it almost 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:08.480 looks like he's saying to people who might try this route, 0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:11.120 go west to get out of here, this is not 0:44:11.160 --> 0:44:13.840 a good area. I don't know. That's my interpretation. You 0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:16.319 can interpret it, interpret rock art a number of ways, 0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:19.879 but you mean rock you mean you've found rock art 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:25.440 that was made by people who were accompanying the expedition. Yes, so, 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:28.800 no one knew this was there till now. Well, Um, 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:33.480 the rancher knew it was there. And basically what we 0:44:33.600 --> 0:44:39.520 have is a volcanic rock that is weathered and has 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:43.759 figures pecked into it and one is wearing a hat, 0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:46.640 one is wearing a helmet like hat and I think 0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:49.439 it is a domed hat rather than I'm looking at it. Yeah, 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:52.480 and Um, if you look real carefully, I actually do 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:57.080 a presentation on this, it looks like the guy has 0:44:57.080 --> 0:44:59.640 a beard. He has a gown on that was typical 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:03.160 of the time. They have pointy shoes on, which was 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:06.799 typical of the time. UH, they have a collar like 0:45:06.920 --> 0:45:10.840 the the UH callers they used to wear at the time, 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:14.560 and something else. I forget what up, but anyway, looking 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:16.840 at it right now, but it's it's we have coronado 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.520 artifacts with it, so you know it. It's pretty darn 0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:24.160 good evidence. Uh. I mean, like one of my volunteers said, 0:45:24.200 --> 0:45:26.279 I said, well, it looks like it is, and he goes, well, 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:32.880 the rock says it is. Uh. So I want to 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:36.000 I want to get into how you like ever begin 0:45:36.040 --> 0:45:39.279 to find this stuff. But well, that and too, I 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:43.879 think what like your work, where the personal passion for 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:46.480 this project comes from. But let's wrap up. I want to. 0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:50.360 I want to first wrap up the expedition. Okay, they 0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:54.640 go on the wild goose chase, get up into Kansas. 0:45:55.560 --> 0:45:58.120 A subset of them got up into canvas right. So 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:00.640 in Texas they realize that there's no way that we 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:03.280 can support this. Many people out here on the plains 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:05.880 were about ready to starve. There's not enough water. So 0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:09.319 they send most of the people back to Albuquerque to 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:13.640 reinhabit Albuquerque again, Albuquerque, Bernal Leo area, for another winter, 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:19.919 and a subset goes north to Kansas. Uh, they stay there. 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:22.439 I think it's you know, twenty five days or something 0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:25.200 like that before they come back, after realizing there was 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.239 nothing up there that they were interested in. Uh. And 0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:31.080 then they all go back to the Albuquerque area spend 0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:33.759 the winter there. Before they leave, Cornado gets kicked in 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:37.279 the head by a horse. Yes, it starts acting peculiar. Well, 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:41.480 I think that was the second concussion he got. The 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.680 first one was uh CIBLA, where they threw a slab 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:48.120 down and he was in full armor, including a helmet, 0:46:48.920 --> 0:46:50.680 but it hit him on the head and I think 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:52.880 even if you had a helmet on, that's going to 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:55.200 cause a pretty big problem. So your second concussion is 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:57.239 always the worst. So I think he was in really 0:46:57.280 --> 0:47:00.000 bad shape. In fact, when the settlement that I found 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:07.120 got attacked, someone was heading south to return to new 0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.479 Spain and then ultimately Spain. I saw that the place 0:47:10.480 --> 0:47:12.520 had been attacked, went all the way back to the 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:17.040 Albuquerque area and didn't tell Coronado right away because of 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:21.360 his concussions. So it must have been really bad. So Uh. 0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:27.920 So I think he basically Um was. I think he 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:33.240 was pretty bad off, but I think that the fact 0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:36.719 that they had not found anything, the fact that he 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:40.960 had a second concussion the fact that the side I found, 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:48.080 Santanimo three, was attacked and destroyed. Uh, and Um, what 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:49.520 was the other thing I was gonna say? I forget. 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:52.919 But anyway, all of those factors together, I think we're 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:57.040 that were the reasons that they ended an expedition. Now, Castinato, 0:47:57.080 --> 0:48:00.319 one of the chroniclers for the expedition, who wrote some 0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:04.120 twenty years later, he said that he missed his wife 0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:07.759 and also, you know, his estates and so on. Well, 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.960 part of the thing he was governor of Nueva Glossia, 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:13.640 and so he had responsibilities down there and the MISHTM 0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:17.240 war had already started. So like that area was an unrest. 0:48:17.400 --> 0:48:19.560 He had responsibilities for that and here he was way 0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:23.520 up there and nothing was turning out like it should. 0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:28.719 So he was like miles away and nothing was happening. UH, 0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:32.719 they weren't getting wealthy, people were starting to cause problems, 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:37.160 people were dying. Uh, you know, things just bad energy, 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.799 and I got like got like mutinous, and they come 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:43.520 home penniless. Then they all get the finger point and 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:47.080 exactly fighting. And it wasn't. So it wasn't like sacking, 0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:50.279 it wasn't like getting Montezooma's gold at all. So, out 0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:54.839 of those hundred, how many do you think ended up 0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:58.879 back dealing, like, back where they came from or started from? 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:03.759 And then, and then when dawn and lived? Um, not 0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:07.560 that many Spaniards died. Some died of hunger, some died 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:11.279 being on the way up, by being uh killed by 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:15.560 natives as they were going north. UH, some died from 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:18.960 poisonous plants they were eating because they were so hungry, 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.680 and then some died in the battles that they had 0:49:21.719 --> 0:49:25.760 in the Albuquerque Bernelo area. Do you believe that the 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:28.720 do you believe that they were getting shot by poison 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:32.080 arrows because they felt that they were Oh, no question. 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:35.520 In fact, this gets back to the to the indigenous 0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:39.240 people that I have studied for forty years, the CEVIYPRIOTEM, 0:49:39.440 --> 0:49:43.320 the ancestors of the people there in the Tucson area, uh, 0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:46.960 the Atham. UH, their ancestors use poison arrows. In fact, 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:53.880 I studied a battle from when the Jesuit Um uh 0:49:54.160 --> 0:49:59.239 sabrio Keino was there. Um, a battle occurred five D 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:03.160 Apache and the allies attacked this eighty person Sipriatan village 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:06.040 on the San Pedro River, that Middle River. Again Anyway, 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:10.479 they ended up prevailing. UH, despite that. It's a long story, 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:15.040 it's an incredible story, it's absolutely fabulous, but anyway, Um, 0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:18.000 they use poison arrows against their enemies. And so while 0:50:18.040 --> 0:50:21.240 only fifty four, I think it was, enemies were actually 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.000 killed on the site that day, they pursued them into 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:26.480 the mountains and over three hundred and sixty, I think, 0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:29.520 died on the way to the mountains because they'd been 0:50:29.520 --> 0:50:32.480 pierced by those arrows. These guys that talked about getting 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:37.480 like a superficial wound on your wrists, say, and then 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:39.839 it would be that they talk of, like everything would 0:50:39.920 --> 0:50:42.040 rod away and you could just see the sinews and 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:46.680 the bones. They'd get into excruciating pain and die, Yep, 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:49.080 because they were like because they got some kind of 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.759 crazy thing. They're dipping these little arrows in and they 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:53.600 just sit and ambush them and just try to just 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:56.920 prick them with the Arrow. Yeah, it's some actually, interestingly, 0:50:57.000 --> 0:50:59.360 I identified what plant it is. It's a sap of 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.520 a Mexican jumping being. I can't remember the scientific name 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:04.440 because it was in the process of changing when I 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:08.919 studied it. But here's the fun thing. My site, the villa, 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:12.080 or the town side of San Hieronimo three. That was 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:14.680 my first Coronado side. I found where the battle occurred. 0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:19.080 The documentary record from a few years later, from twenty 0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:24.319 four years later, talks about it again from a survivor 0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:27.480 and part of what the story is is really fascinating. 0:51:27.480 --> 0:51:29.600 It's a fascinating story which I won't go through unless 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:32.120 you want me to, but part of the story is 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:38.239 that the captain was sleeping with the wives and daughters 0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:44.440 of the native villagers, the Cevipriatam and that really ticked 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:46.560 the locals off, as well as the fact that they 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:49.160 were taking more than they said they were going to 0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:52.560 take in terms of food stuff and resources, tribute and stuff. Uh. 0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:56.080 And they were chopping the hands and noses off the residents, 0:51:56.080 --> 0:52:00.000 probably for terrorism, but also probably for minor, minor offenses, lie, 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.200 you know, complaining that you took my daughter, you know, 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:07.959 or my wife. So Um. But anyway, so they saw 0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:12.080 lights in the mountains, apparently the night before the attack occurred, 0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.640 and that was unusual. So they doubled the guard and 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:17.239 we have six lookout stations, by the way, around our 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:20.439 via uh, and three of them with evidence of having 0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:24.640 been attacked. So they doubled the guard, but the attack 0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:28.800 didn't occur until the morning when everybody kind of got lazy. 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.640 You know that happens. They attacked, they snuck in, probably 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:35.400 with clubs first, and clubbed people in their houses and 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:39.680 such Um. The captain was killed, and he was the 0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:41.799 one responsible for all of this stuff. In fact, he 0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:47.560 was sleeping with two yeah too, and what those women 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:53.960 did is they took a poison arrowhead and pricked him 0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:57.879 on the side between the folds of his wee peel, 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:00.839 which is kind of clothing, and he died from that. 0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:03.880 And I love telling that story because, you know, the 0:53:03.960 --> 0:53:09.320 yellow rows of Texas is Um, during the UM, Sam 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:13.120 Houston I was able to overrun Santa Anna because he 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:17.440 had a Mulatto woman there who was distracting him in 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:19.720 his tent at the time. Okay, so that's the story 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:23.040 and that's yeah, and so here we've got the yellow, 0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:25.920 I mean here we have the red roses of Sulia, 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:31.240 who took a arrowhead and killed the captain during the battle. 0:53:31.360 --> 0:53:35.080 So you have these brave women, women are rarely mentioned 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:39.160 in the historic record and UH, here they are central 0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:43.560 figures in killing one of the main perpetrators of violence 0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:46.439 in the area. It's just phenomenal. So there's the other 0:53:46.480 --> 0:53:49.279 poison they made. Like it's like and read about, I 0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:51.759 don't re understand it would be that they would take 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:55.759 dear liver and have a rattlesnake and, like pastor, a 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:58.720 rattlesnake with the deer liver until the lattle snakes struck 0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:02.080 the deer liver and then they'd pay ace. That is that. 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:05.440 Does that seem like legit Um? That isn't a that 0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:07.920 was one of the Apache tribe's way of doing it. 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:09.960 There's a variety of different kinds of poison that one 0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:12.680 can use. Yeah, I've studied some of it, not because 0:54:12.680 --> 0:54:15.680 I have any intense and using it, but I find 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:19.760 poison fascinating the same reason other people do, but because 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.680 it plays such an important role in the historic record 0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:25.759 and also in warfare in the historic record, because when 0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:28.799 you start using poison you're trying to kill people. It's 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:32.760 not you're just having this ritualized warfare like some small 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:34.960 societies do, so that you don't have to kill a 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:36.879 number of people. When you start using poison, you're trying 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:38.640 to kill people. You know, you're trying to kill as 0:54:38.680 --> 0:54:42.400 many as you can. There's a I don't want to 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:45.279 take us too far, afield, but there's a I think 0:54:45.280 --> 0:54:49.800 you've just passed away geists geist. Just I yeah, yeah, 0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:53.759 maybe it was him. Apologies to his UH survivors if 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:56.160 I'm wrong about this, but in looking at the place, 0:54:56.200 --> 0:55:00.719 to seeing Megafauna extinctions, I feel a key help because 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:02.919 people are like, oh, how would they have killed them? 0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:05.080 You know, we just don't have that many projectile points 0:55:05.640 --> 0:55:10.279 associated with mammoths. And he wrote the thing about how 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:14.360 do we know that they weren't hunting with poison? And 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:16.680 he talked about because poison is not like we know 0:55:16.760 --> 0:55:19.400 in South America poisons used. We know in Africa they 0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:22.040 hunt big game with poison. But he was making the 0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:26.960 case of why have we just ignored the role of 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:31.040 poison in hunting when we know that poison is used 0:55:31.040 --> 0:55:33.480 in warfare? Well, we also know it is used in 0:55:33.880 --> 0:55:37.560 food acquisition and stuff like some, I think it's South American, groups, 0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:39.440 put poison in the water, all the fish come to 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:42.800 the surface kind of thing. So I mean poison plays 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:46.520 a role in all kinds of food acquisition strategies. So 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:50.319 that's not just surprising, although I don't know how to 0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:52.879 respond to the other than one thought is that one 0:55:52.880 --> 0:55:55.319 of the reasons those fluted points are fluted is so 0:55:55.360 --> 0:55:57.960 that the blood flows. And that doesn't make sense with 0:55:58.040 --> 0:56:01.480 trying to get the poison to enter the bloods dreams. So, but, 0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:03.760 but they could have been using other weapons to get 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:08.719 the poison in. Right. So uh, one might think, why 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:12.440 would anyone give a ship uh what route they took? 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:15.160 But I'm starting to put it together. If you find 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:18.880 the route, you can find the stuff well and like 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.279 and and put and solve the mystery. Well, solving the 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:24.239 mystery is a huge part of it. That's where part 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:26.799 of my passion comes from. Right. But for me, as 0:56:26.840 --> 0:56:30.920 an archaeologist, I love finding things, I love piecing the 0:56:30.960 --> 0:56:34.240 story together using archaeology, the historic record and a variety 0:56:34.239 --> 0:56:39.000 of other things, geography, ethnography and so on. But I 0:56:39.120 --> 0:56:41.960 also have gotten to the point in my career many, 0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:44.000 many years ago, probably a couple of decades ago, where 0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:46.920 I realized that it's more than just an academic pursuit. 0:56:47.000 --> 0:56:49.640 For me, I like it when it becomes relevant to 0:56:49.960 --> 0:56:52.439 the people that I'm studying. So that's why I work 0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:56.560 with the Athum uh, the the direct descendants of not 0:56:56.680 --> 0:57:02.000 only the mission and presidio sites and and Ceviibrieatham sites 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:04.960 that I studied, the native sites, but also this coronado story, 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:10.960 because now that we know where the route is, we 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:13.960 know that they were impacted. Everybody has thought that it 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:20.040 was the OPATA, a different group further eastern Sonora, that Coronado, etcetera, 0:57:20.080 --> 0:57:23.560 we're talking about. Those were the ones who were impacted. No, 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:27.080 it turns out it's the Atham, the AUTHOM had some 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:31.200 of the earliest negative encounters with Europeans. So it matters 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:33.800 to them, not only, like I said before, so they 0:57:33.800 --> 0:57:37.160 can understand the history of trauma where some of their 0:57:37.160 --> 0:57:41.360 cultural changes occurred. You know, they probably had, you know, 0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:46.040 kids who were mixed race because of this rape that occurred. 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:48.440 I mean all of these groups did in fact probably 0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:52.560 also a stave them. Probably was sleeping with all kinds 0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:57.040 of native women. So they're probably African American intermixture. There's 0:57:57.360 --> 0:58:00.560 European intermixture and stuff. So that can you main being 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:03.240 a native woman in one of these towns that got 0:58:03.320 --> 0:58:05.200 raped by one of these men and then having this 0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:08.920 white looking kid that you have to deal with and explain, 0:58:09.080 --> 0:58:12.640 you know, I mean it there's all kinds of repercussions 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:16.840 along those lines. But also, like I said before, now 0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:20.400 we know that the atom were the bravest, they were 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:25.480 the valiant ones, they were the ones that made the whole. 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:27.920 I mean that was the final nail in the coffin 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:31.160 for the expedition. Once that happened, there's you know, that 0:58:31.160 --> 0:58:35.800 that intermediate supply base basically was gone, and so the 0:58:35.880 --> 0:58:40.480 distance between, quote, Spanish civilization and where they were at 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:44.720 just doubled in size, and so it made it almost impossible. 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:49.640 But that's the thing. It allows us to put later 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:52.800 ethnography with earlier ethnography as well. There are so many 0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:57.240 reasons as important Um with archaeology too, and this is 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:00.440 what a lot of people don't understand. When we find, 0:59:00.520 --> 0:59:02.560 when I find a site like I can answer a 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.000 whole range of other questions, like at our town sites 0:59:05.120 --> 0:59:08.720 and Hieronimo. People have said that it's just a supply base, 0:59:09.000 --> 0:59:11.120 that there were only men there, so it wasn't a settlement. Well, 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:13.560 first of all, you can have settlements just of men. 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:16.000 You can have settlements of men of just age fifteen, 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:18.440 you know, uh, and it's still a settlement. But the 0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:21.280 point is is we there were some women and children 0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:24.640 along on the expedition. We don't know how many, but 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:27.880 I will be able to tell maybe in the archaeological 0:59:27.920 --> 0:59:30.720 record whether there were women and children at our site. 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:33.720 That's just one of the kinds of things that we 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:36.360 can examine, one of the questions that we can examine 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:39.560 with the archaeological record that are silent in the historic record. 0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:42.680 If you find, if you find latrine sites, can you 0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:45.959 guys do genetic stuff off that? Probably about who would 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:48.200 you compare it to? You know, you'd have to find 0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:51.640 the descendant populations and stuff. Which would could you? Could 0:59:51.680 --> 0:59:59.960 you tell, uh, male, female, off latrine like off of latrines? 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:03.720 I don't know, I've never done that. You know, you 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:09.280 got a team up with Dr Beth Shapiro. Okay, you 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:15.280 guys be best friends. Is She full of ship? Listen, man, 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.800 she's the coolest. She's the coolest. She's far from fullish 1:00:19.880 --> 1:00:22.240 person on the planet when it comes to genetics and stuff. Cool. 1:00:22.520 --> 1:00:24.960 You gotta talk to her. Yeah, well, I'm hoping, you know, 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:26.600 and you find, you find on the tree site and 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:28.720 get Best Shapiro on air, she'll figure out what's going on. 1:00:28.960 --> 1:00:33.520 We're expecting maybe to find bodies on this site. No, no, 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:35.760 atom were killed. No, some viper you were killed. No, 1:00:35.760 --> 1:00:38.160 none of the natives were killed. None of the local natives, 1:00:38.720 --> 1:00:41.080 but some of the Spaniards were killed. But the problem 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:42.880 is in an archaeologist, if we find a body we 1:00:42.920 --> 1:00:45.160 have to stop digging. So we don't want to find 1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:51.840 him until the very end. So I'm not looking around it. 1:01:01.720 --> 1:01:04.520 When you find a site, is it? How does it work? 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.760 Does it work that someone finds something weird and you 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:11.200 go and look at me like Bigali, here's a site, 1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:14.240 or is it that you say there should be a 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:19.840 site there. Let me go look both and other things. So, uh, 1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:23.600 the first site I found, uh, is I found it 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:28.360 very in a very unique way. So I was working 1:01:28.440 --> 1:01:32.640 on trying to find camp sites along the ONS a trail, 1:01:32.680 --> 1:01:35.439 because nobody's found any campsites along the on the trail. 1:01:35.480 --> 1:01:37.520 We know where the route is, that nobody's actually found 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:39.880 any campsites. Historians of guests where they are. What's that? 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:43.440 What's the on the trail? UH, WAMBATISTA Tonza, in seventy 1:01:43.480 --> 1:01:47.240 four seventy went out and founded San Francisco, basically brought 1:01:47.240 --> 1:01:50.480 a colony out there. Okay, so he left from TUBAC 1:01:50.480 --> 1:01:55.080 presidio in southern Arizona, south at Tucson, and so, being 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:58.000 an archaeologist, I don't want to guess where the site is, 1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:01.040 I want to find evidence. So I found across a 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:05.040 petrockly cross and I thought, Oh, maybe this is Barcos 1:02:05.040 --> 1:02:07.560 de Niza, maybe this is father Kino or maybe this 1:02:07.600 --> 1:02:11.120 is Wamba Desta, the Anza. So I finally figured out 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:15.840 it's probably on because there's a campsite, campsite uh inferred 1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:18.760 to be near there. And then I found another Petrock 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:21.800 clyff cross further up where we know another camp site. 1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:25.640 They're carving crosses into rocks. Yeah, exactly, and they're probably 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:27.560 you know, they're at water sources there, at passes and 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:30.320 stuff like that, and we know they're along trails. I 1:02:30.360 --> 1:02:33.160 actually have a youtube video that talks about the Anta 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:35.880 trail and shows the crosses and so on. So but anyway, 1:02:35.920 --> 1:02:37.800 for a while I was thinking maybe it's Marcos de 1:02:37.840 --> 1:02:40.280 Niza and maybe this is the same route and so on. 1:02:40.760 --> 1:02:43.040 So I started looking into things and then I couldn't 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:48.400 find any horse shoes related to Uh Ansa, and we 1:02:48.480 --> 1:02:50.960 think that maybe horse shoes weren't used later in time 1:02:51.000 --> 1:02:53.840 because they had the type of horses that had rougher Hoofs, 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:56.240 like Spanish barbs, and they didn't need them. Plus, horse 1:02:56.280 --> 1:02:59.000 shoes were very expensive. But we know that they were 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:01.920 used in the Coronado period, during the expedition, and I 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:03.800 have a bunch of them. I do, I mean I 1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:06.800 found that's more. These other sites, many of them are 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:10.160 defined by in part by horse shoes. Are Mule shoes. Oh, 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:12.320 so when you guys talk about the nails, is the 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:17.120 horseshoe nails? Yes, but I also have a video. Yeah, 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:19.040 so I have a video on that and that's one 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:21.440 of the uses of them. But there's probably other uses 1:03:21.800 --> 1:03:25.680 for the nails as well. But they're gable headed or 1:03:25.760 --> 1:03:28.400 carrot headed nails. I've started call them gable headed nails 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:31.800 because they're, you know, like gabled roof and that makes 1:03:31.840 --> 1:03:35.320 a lot more sense. The carrot is an editing character 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:39.720 kind of because of that, the upside down V shape Um. 1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.360 But Anyway, uh, where were we? Horseshoes? Oh, so I 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:47.200 was looking. I had worked at the Spanish presidio Santa 1:03:47.200 --> 1:03:51.240 Crist terranant prasidio before, excavated there for years and never 1:03:51.280 --> 1:03:53.480 found any horse shoes. So I wasn't hopeful, but I 1:03:53.720 --> 1:03:58.120 looked on the Internet for, you know, what kind of 1:03:58.120 --> 1:04:00.800 horse shoes might have they had that I'm missing, or 1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:04.080 horseshoe nails, and then I found an image of these 1:04:04.160 --> 1:04:09.400 online and nobody knew where they were at. Uh, but 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:13.600 we knew have found them, and so I guessed where 1:04:13.640 --> 1:04:16.120 he might have found them because I had been working 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:19.040 on a site for years. I've worked the whole Area 1:04:19.040 --> 1:04:22.400 A lot. But I found a Horse Jangle because Cojo, 1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:25.880 uh Jingle Bobs, some people call him, from the bridle 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:30.400 bit on my subiper site and I thought this looks 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:32.520 just like the one on the Jimmy Ollen site. They're 1:04:32.560 --> 1:04:35.240 in Texas, a known Coronado site. So I wondered, like 1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:38.040 twenty years ago, could this be Coronado, but I had 1:04:38.080 --> 1:04:43.080 no way of proving it right. Well, so when I 1:04:43.080 --> 1:04:46.080 guessed where these might have come from, I went back 1:04:46.080 --> 1:04:48.479 to that site after doing a train analysis and within 1:04:48.520 --> 1:04:51.280 a couple of hours, within less than two hours, had 1:04:51.280 --> 1:04:59.360 found Coronado. So the metal detector. Yeah, yeah, Yep, when 1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:01.960 you say you had found Coronado, that doesn't mean you 1:05:02.080 --> 1:05:10.479 found his body. No, no, he's buried. He died ten something. Yeah, 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:14.479 what I mean is um that evidence of Coronado's trail 1:05:14.520 --> 1:05:17.760 and it turns out a town site and now we have, 1:05:18.000 --> 1:05:20.200 like I said, four down here and there's a bunch 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:23.280 of Albuquerque and so on, and one for sure in 1:05:23.360 --> 1:05:27.040 Texas Um. So that's what I mean as an archaeologist 1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:30.240 when I found Coronado. Yeah, real quick before you go 1:05:30.320 --> 1:05:34.280 farther on, because I'm just still, like you were saying earlier, 1:05:34.280 --> 1:05:36.680 when Steve Asked you, like Oh, if you find the path, 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:40.360 then then you unravel the mystery. But what is the 1:05:40.760 --> 1:05:43.840 like in real short form? What is the mystery still 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:48.400 yet with this whole expedition? Well, part of the thing 1:05:48.760 --> 1:05:52.200 is that nobody's been able to find it. So that 1:05:52.240 --> 1:05:55.880 makes it the path. Like how could thousands of people 1:05:55.960 --> 1:06:00.080 and thousands ahead of livestock? I have this role in 1:06:00.200 --> 1:06:04.000 battle from Mexico to Kansas. So the path is the mystery, 1:06:04.280 --> 1:06:07.680 the path and the campsites. And even two fifty years 1:06:07.760 --> 1:06:11.000 or whatever it is ago, Father Keino and his military escort, 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:15.720 in their documents they left, questioned where coronado went and said, hey, 1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:19.560 he probably went here. You know, turns out corn, turns 1:06:19.560 --> 1:06:23.320 out Father Keno from six nineties actually stayed at one 1:06:23.360 --> 1:06:24.920 of the places where one of our sites are and 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:27.560 he didn't know it, which is really kind of cool actually. 1:06:28.040 --> 1:06:30.440 So we have these layers of history and stuff, but 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:33.120 it's been lost. It was lost afterwards partly because they 1:06:33.120 --> 1:06:35.720 didn't know where they were. Right. They didn't know where 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:38.040 they were on the train. They went back and forth 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:40.400 several times so they could find their way, but they 1:06:40.880 --> 1:06:42.800 had they had no idea where they were. There's no 1:06:42.920 --> 1:06:46.360 surviving map of this part. So even if they did 1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:48.520 a map, even if even if they prepared a map, 1:06:48.520 --> 1:06:49.880 I don't think it would help much. When they were 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:55.080 crossing the UH Yano esticado state plans, they were leaving 1:06:55.160 --> 1:06:58.040 big mountains of buffalo chips so they could try to 1:06:58.080 --> 1:07:03.120 find their way back the way they came. Yeah, and 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:06.120 then also, yeah, they true. And then also to find 1:07:06.160 --> 1:07:08.800 their way, they'd shoot arrows. They wait till the morning, 1:07:08.920 --> 1:07:11.160 till the sun rose, they'd shoot a couple of arrows 1:07:11.160 --> 1:07:13.320 and then keep shooting them over one another so they 1:07:13.320 --> 1:07:17.280 could stay on the trail. And My uh, what I 1:07:17.280 --> 1:07:19.960 imagine is when they got led astray by those guides, 1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:21.880 they shot them a little bit to the right each time. 1:07:22.000 --> 1:07:26.640 Right they knew exactly what they were doing. So you 1:07:26.680 --> 1:07:30.600 guys found a this kind of most surprising thing. You've 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:38.640 turned up, Um, one the cross like armaments, crossbowl Arrow 1:07:38.960 --> 1:07:41.440 you know, projectile points from crossbows that they used and 1:07:41.480 --> 1:07:46.720 they fought. But you found a cannon. Cannon, Yep. So 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:49.520 before I mentioned the cannon, what we have with regard 1:07:49.560 --> 1:07:53.480 to the crossbow boltheads? We have a I'll show you one, 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:56.320 but also, Um, what I have here is, Um, a 1:07:56.440 --> 1:07:59.880 map that we plotted them out. I could see in 1:07:59.880 --> 1:08:04.400 the field that Um that we had clustering, but I 1:08:04.440 --> 1:08:08.840 plotted it out more recently and Um, basically what you 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:10.640 can see. I'M NOT gonna be able to find it now, 1:08:10.680 --> 1:08:14.080 of course. Um, what you can see is that the 1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:17.760 crossbow boltheads cluster and in just a tour, actually four 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:21.240 different areas and in the first area with most of them, 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:25.000 including broken ones, a lot of tips and so on. Uh, 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:30.439 there are also subpriatam stone arrowheads. So that's where there 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:33.160 was little shootouts. Yeah, they came up the wash and 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:36.519 that right in the heart of the town site. So Um, 1:08:36.640 --> 1:08:41.880 so you can see that. Um, and uh, that is 1:08:41.920 --> 1:08:43.840 one of the strong like when I tell people how 1:08:43.840 --> 1:08:46.880 many crossbow boltheads. We have more than any other coronado site. 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:49.679 That's convincing. And then how they cluster. We can see 1:08:49.680 --> 1:08:54.080 where they went and such. But Um, near where that 1:08:54.120 --> 1:08:58.080 occurred we did find the cannon, and the Cannon Uh is. 1:08:58.280 --> 1:09:01.880 I'm still looking for this image. Sorry. Um, the cannon 1:09:02.120 --> 1:09:07.680 was found, uh, metal detecting, but it was sitting on 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:11.920 the obviously, I'd like to rent you for a couple 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:14.439 of weeks, man, just to just to go metal detecting. 1:09:14.760 --> 1:09:16.920 We'll see. I got some real honey hooles. I'd like 1:09:16.960 --> 1:09:18.880 to go. Have you shown me how to work? Yeah, 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:21.760 but see, as a professional archaeologist, what I have to say, 1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:24.840 and this is really, I think, important, metal detecting is 1:09:24.880 --> 1:09:28.599 an important tool and I didn't use it much until recently, 1:09:28.960 --> 1:09:31.360 but this is one of the reasons coronado hadn't been found, 1:09:31.400 --> 1:09:34.600 because archaeologists were hesitant to use metal detectors because we 1:09:34.640 --> 1:09:36.920 did not want to to lead the public to the 1:09:37.000 --> 1:09:39.880 idea that you can just go out and loot, meaning 1:09:40.160 --> 1:09:43.120 take things out of context. And well, that's what I'm 1:09:43.120 --> 1:09:44.880 fixing to do with you. Yeah, there you go. So 1:09:46.520 --> 1:09:51.000 that's what you think. Huh? So? So, anyway, here's my point, 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:52.639 and I want to make a point about this. I'm 1:09:52.640 --> 1:09:55.000 not trying to be arrogant, because I know that people. 1:09:55.080 --> 1:09:57.240 One of the reason my crew volunteers, and I have 1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:00.280 like thirty or forty people volunteering with me, and one 1:10:00.320 --> 1:10:05.080 of the reasons they do it is there totally passionate 1:10:05.560 --> 1:10:08.680 about finding this stuff and they get to do it 1:10:08.720 --> 1:10:13.479 in a way that's professionally or, you know, responsible. Yeah, 1:10:13.560 --> 1:10:16.000 they're they're like making history. They're making history and they 1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:18.680 knew from the beginning and everybody sworn to secrecy and 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:21.360 certain rules. We haven't stuff that they can't keep anything. 1:10:21.360 --> 1:10:25.000 But but here's the deal, the reason this is important 1:10:25.040 --> 1:10:27.120 and I can't stress is enough. Remember, I was talking 1:10:27.120 --> 1:10:29.840 about the Sonora River and the Sampedro, where everybody thought 1:10:29.880 --> 1:10:31.519 they went up there, and I have two sites to 1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:34.320 the West and there's two sites to the east, and 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:36.880 now I'm at the Sampedro trying to decide whether they 1:10:36.880 --> 1:10:42.120 turned north, south or went straight east. Well, I think 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:45.240 they might have went north because somebody found a medieval 1:10:45.280 --> 1:10:50.240 horseshoe fragment there fifty years ago. The woman who allowed 1:10:50.240 --> 1:10:53.920 this person to look was given this and a few 1:10:53.920 --> 1:10:56.519 other artifacts, and I saw it in her display case. 1:10:57.320 --> 1:10:59.360 She didn't do the meddle detecting. She she doesn't know 1:10:59.400 --> 1:11:02.200 exactly where found, but she thinks it was found to 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:06.200 the north. Now that's the problem. First of all, if 1:11:06.240 --> 1:11:08.559 I hadn't run into her. I ran into her through 1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:11.080 a friend WHO's on the project, who I've known for 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:14.519 some time, and I saw this. Where did you get this? 1:11:14.600 --> 1:11:16.479 So she doesn't really know where it came from. So 1:11:16.520 --> 1:11:18.880 that's part of the problem. So I'M gonna be on 1:11:18.920 --> 1:11:21.120 this wild goose chase. But if she knew exactly where 1:11:21.120 --> 1:11:24.120 it came from, then I could walk right there and 1:11:24.200 --> 1:11:26.280 know that that's where the site is. What if that's 1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:30.160 the only artifact that was thrown from a mule or 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:34.600 horse or the only artifact left behind by the expedition 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:38.000 in that location? Then it's a race and so many 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:42.200 people pick these things up they don't record where they're from. 1:11:42.400 --> 1:11:46.559 And that's the one key. And I was working on 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:50.280 another site. The WHO, the Apache leader? Who? Where he killed? 1:11:50.920 --> 1:11:56.599 Uh Lieutenant cushing, uh Um in one, hero of Tucson 1:11:56.680 --> 1:11:59.160 and so on. Nobody could find this place. I found 1:11:59.160 --> 1:12:04.120 it fairly quick. Uh train analysis again and understanding Apache 1:12:04.160 --> 1:12:08.240 ambush behavior and the thing that we realized is that 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:12.080 it had been metal detected and collected before. And what happened? 1:12:12.120 --> 1:12:15.040 Is it with somebody from Wisconsin in the Tucson Sierra 1:12:15.080 --> 1:12:18.040 Vista area. He collected all this stuff. He showed a 1:12:17.840 --> 1:12:20.280 local gun shop and they verified it. And that's how 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:22.000 I know it happened, because it's one of the people 1:12:22.000 --> 1:12:25.240 on my crew and the guy has disappeared. He never 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:26.840 came back. He was going to come back and the 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:30.280 things probably ended up in the landfill from Wisconsin. Yeah, 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:38.160 his family probably. I've rel nonetheless. Well, you know, I've 1:12:38.160 --> 1:12:40.400 called up there and tried to figure out maybe where 1:12:40.400 --> 1:12:43.040 they could be. But the problem is when somebody dies, 1:12:44.000 --> 1:12:47.400 their collections just get tossed half the time because nobody recognized. 1:12:47.439 --> 1:12:50.120 They think it's a bunch of trash. And so, with 1:12:50.200 --> 1:12:54.800 regard to Coronado, it's super important that they leave so little. 1:12:54.840 --> 1:12:57.040 These are overnight encampments for the most part, and you 1:12:57.080 --> 1:12:59.559 find one thing in some cases. But if you find 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:02.479 one thing, artifacts can move, they can get there by 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:04.960 other reasons. A native could have picked it up or whatever. 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:08.880 But the fact is if you find an alignment of them, 1:13:09.000 --> 1:13:11.400 then you know you've got the trail. When somebody takes 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:14.040 one of those out, it's harder to find the next one, 1:13:14.439 --> 1:13:16.640 or you could erase whole segments of the trail. So 1:13:16.840 --> 1:13:22.320 I totally understand and I'm on board with what you're saying. 1:13:22.400 --> 1:13:24.400 It took me a while to get there, but and 1:13:24.400 --> 1:13:27.320 and and again I've been on. I got to spend 1:13:27.360 --> 1:13:32.040 time with archaeologists. We found ice age projectile points that 1:13:32.120 --> 1:13:34.720 they would just shove back into the ground. It was 1:13:35.240 --> 1:13:39.479 painful for me. I would fantasize about going back there 1:13:39.479 --> 1:13:42.680 and getting them all. Never did you like working with me. 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:47.080 I get it, understand and when I pointed out, when 1:13:47.120 --> 1:13:49.000 I pointed out, I'm just pointed out because it's what 1:13:49.200 --> 1:13:58.439 like a a people people. People walk around looking at 1:13:58.479 --> 1:14:00.760 the ground, thinking you're gonna find some cool ship land 1:14:00.760 --> 1:14:06.920 there right. It's like they often view it as why 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:12.440 is that archaeologist finding it? Like why is that? Okay, 1:14:12.560 --> 1:14:15.200 but it's bad for me to find it, and that's 1:14:15.920 --> 1:14:17.920 it's like they're like what are they? They're they're better 1:14:17.960 --> 1:14:21.680 than me. You know what is it? I've heard that 1:14:21.760 --> 1:14:24.120 story too and I understand it. I certainly didn't. What 1:14:24.120 --> 1:14:27.200 do you laugh about? You think you're better than me, 1:14:27.360 --> 1:14:34.800 because you know I'm saying it's definitely it's something a 1:14:34.840 --> 1:14:37.200 little kid who is something taken away from them. Go 1:14:37.320 --> 1:14:40.840 volunteer with Danny. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking 1:14:40.840 --> 1:14:44.960 about like, no, I'm putting myself in like articulating the 1:14:45.000 --> 1:14:47.679 thing that's been okay, do this test. Do this test. 1:14:48.400 --> 1:14:53.360 Go on Um, go on Instagram, and and and just 1:14:53.400 --> 1:14:56.760 go on instagram. Take take a projectile point. Okay, and 1:14:56.840 --> 1:14:59.040 go on instagram and put in the palm of your 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:03.519 hand and say I found this uh Indian Arrowhead. Too 1:15:03.520 --> 1:15:05.519 Bad I couldn't keep it, and then look in the 1:15:05.560 --> 1:15:07.800 comments section a couple of days later. Oh Yeah, I've 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:15.360 I've read this. So like this is a widely held viewpoint. Yeah, 1:15:15.400 --> 1:15:19.760 I know the like what are the odds someone's gonna 1:15:19.800 --> 1:15:22.000 find it? It's been here this long, no one's found 1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:25.599 it yet, whatever. And this ship winds up in coffee 1:15:25.600 --> 1:15:29.320 cans on people's Windows, on the wall right there. If 1:15:29.360 --> 1:15:37.479 Our podcasts people send us that ship, I gotta I 1:15:37.479 --> 1:15:39.960 guess people try to give me all the time. But 1:15:40.040 --> 1:15:43.200 here's the thing. The fact is is that this site 1:15:43.680 --> 1:15:45.960 where the first big the first site I found, the 1:15:45.960 --> 1:15:48.719 biggest one. The town site where the battle occurred. People 1:15:48.720 --> 1:15:51.439 had metal detected there before that. Yeah, they haven't had 1:15:51.439 --> 1:15:53.040 no idea what they're looking at. Well, they had worst 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:54.840 metal detectors. They didn't know what they were looking at 1:15:55.320 --> 1:15:58.040 and they're all out of context. And the fact is 1:15:58.040 --> 1:15:59.800 is what I would say to people who have that 1:16:00.160 --> 1:16:03.320 view is I understand it. It's the thrill, it's the 1:16:03.360 --> 1:16:06.400 thrill of the chase, it's the adventure, it's finding something 1:16:06.439 --> 1:16:08.960 cool and old. But Americans are kind of unique in 1:16:09.040 --> 1:16:11.280 that way. Is that we got to keep things for 1:16:11.360 --> 1:16:13.040 some reason. We want to put them on our mantle. 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:16.960 Other people when people come over and go see that, yeah, exactly, 1:16:18.520 --> 1:16:21.679 ship and we like to collect. Well, and also people 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:23.479 have collected it and said I collected this for you 1:16:23.640 --> 1:16:25.240 so that nobody else would take it, and I said 1:16:25.280 --> 1:16:27.880 you just took it, you know. But tell you something, 1:16:28.000 --> 1:16:30.280 this is gonna trip you up. This is the Tony 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:34.040 Baker story, the late Tony Baker. They were talking bad 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:39.080 about the dead. No, they found Tony Baker. No, I 1:16:39.080 --> 1:16:41.200 don't know where it went. I remember telling me the story. 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:44.800 They found they were at a Pueblo. Archaeologists working a 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:51.919 Pueblo site had found where the Pueblo in people had 1:16:51.960 --> 1:16:57.639 a stash of fulsome points. They found it and thought 1:16:57.720 --> 1:17:02.240 that's cool. Yeah, and they're they're separated by ten thousand years. 1:17:02.479 --> 1:17:06.320 We find that in archaeological sites. Is often things were 1:17:06.360 --> 1:17:09.519 picked up to put in medicine bags or picked up 1:17:09.560 --> 1:17:12.479 as Curios or also picked up at to reuse. So 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:15.360 that's quite common. They're like these people are from a long, 1:17:16.000 --> 1:17:19.360 long time ago. Let's strong in jail. I don't know 1:17:19.400 --> 1:17:23.839 what I'm saying. The viewpoint be like they, in their time, 1:17:24.760 --> 1:17:28.519 like a thousand years ago whatever, recognized that like wow, yeah, no, 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:31.000 it's a weird thing from a long time ago. And See, 1:17:31.120 --> 1:17:34.679 I think there's people who just don't care about history 1:17:34.680 --> 1:17:37.479 in the past, but there's huge number of people, I'd 1:17:37.479 --> 1:17:40.280 say maybe half the population or more, that find a 1:17:40.360 --> 1:17:43.639 fascination with the past, with history, with people have gone before. 1:17:43.680 --> 1:17:48.120 It's a connection. Artifacts provide that tangible connection to the 1:17:48.120 --> 1:17:50.559 past and that's why people are enthralled by it. But 1:17:50.640 --> 1:17:52.759 what I will say is, getting back to our site 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:56.639 and our project, I haven't asked my biggest question yet, 1:17:56.680 --> 1:17:58.519 and it has to do with the cannon. Okay, so 1:17:58.760 --> 1:18:01.920 the reason that it's important is what if somebody had 1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:04.840 come in and collected all these crossbow bolt heads. If 1:18:04.840 --> 1:18:07.479 they had, you know, done it and found this or 1:18:07.479 --> 1:18:10.519 the cannon the bolt heads, we wouldn't have been able 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:13.840 to see the pattern, right, we wouldn't have known that 1:18:13.880 --> 1:18:18.040 this is a most important historic site, potentially in the region, 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:21.519 in the southern Arizona at least Um. If they had 1:18:21.560 --> 1:18:23.240 found the cannon, you know where I'd be right now? 1:18:23.240 --> 1:18:27.240 In some Saudi's basement in his private collection. That's right 1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:34.000 on some of my kids. Yeah, exactly, see. So the 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.360 way I look at this is this is all of 1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:41.720 our histories, right is this not just my find, and 1:18:41.760 --> 1:18:43.640 that's why I'm sharing it in the film and the 1:18:43.680 --> 1:18:47.400 documentary film. But I also see that as an archaeologist, 1:18:47.400 --> 1:18:49.040 I could go out and find this stuff and not 1:18:49.080 --> 1:18:51.240 tell anybody, right, I mean, I could do it just 1:18:51.280 --> 1:18:55.800 like the public does, but I don't because I recognize 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:59.680 that this is our collective history and most other countries, 1:18:59.800 --> 1:19:03.040 how a sensibility about that that we would help if 1:19:03.040 --> 1:19:06.800 we started thinking about it this way, because once we 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:09.600 take something out of the context, is everything, once we 1:19:09.680 --> 1:19:11.479 take it out of its context in the field, we 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:16.559 lose the story, the story about Coronado and this uh 1:19:16.800 --> 1:19:20.719 town site of San Joranimo, the interaction with the natives 1:19:21.120 --> 1:19:24.000 and all of this is just so phenomenal. It's the 1:19:24.160 --> 1:19:28.120 story itself that we can tell from the artifacts and 1:19:28.120 --> 1:19:30.040 where we found them on the ground and the relationship 1:19:30.080 --> 1:19:32.559 to each other and the features, the structures and so 1:19:32.600 --> 1:19:37.439 on that we're finding. If people just collected that, we 1:19:37.479 --> 1:19:40.639 would lose that. So we have this whole the whole 1:19:40.680 --> 1:19:45.280 story that we're able to develop because people didn't get 1:19:45.320 --> 1:19:47.519 in there and destroy the evidence. And that's why I 1:19:47.600 --> 1:19:50.719 keep the place secret, because I can only work so much. 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:54.439 See I can only work so fast. I almost killed 1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:57.160 myself last season trying to get certain things done before 1:19:57.200 --> 1:19:58.680 the end of the before it got too hot and 1:19:58.720 --> 1:20:02.160 before the rains and stuff. But if people find out 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:03.840 where it is, they're going to come into metal detect 1:20:03.920 --> 1:20:05.840 and then it's going to mess up our distributions. So 1:20:05.880 --> 1:20:08.280 at least until we're done metal detective, I've been going 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:10.680 over some areas five times to get everything out so 1:20:10.720 --> 1:20:13.960 that people don't feel the need to go right Um, 1:20:14.000 --> 1:20:16.600 we've got to figure out how to protect it uh, 1:20:16.640 --> 1:20:18.200 but if you want to see it, you'll have to 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:21.519 wait till it's in a museum. Yeah, we'll probably end 1:20:21.600 --> 1:20:25.200 up doing site tours and stuff, but they're gonna it's 1:20:25.200 --> 1:20:30.439 gonna be consultation with various landowners and agencies and, you know, 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:35.240 the whole whole range, because it's even when I extract 1:20:35.320 --> 1:20:37.639 what I extract, I'm only going to do a subset 1:20:37.640 --> 1:20:40.559 of the evidence. there. The the ethic is to save 1:20:40.600 --> 1:20:43.200 a lot of it for the future, and so I'll 1:20:43.200 --> 1:20:47.639 do that. But also the landowners don't want to be overrun. Uh, 1:20:47.800 --> 1:20:50.360 it's probably going to be turned into, hopefully to a 1:20:50.400 --> 1:20:53.880 monument or landmark so that people can go just like 1:20:53.920 --> 1:20:57.040 they do to a national park. Um, it's such a 1:20:57.080 --> 1:21:00.000 big thing. It's such a big fine so so important 1:21:00.000 --> 1:21:05.600 to our history, into the history of underrepresented populations, native populations, 1:21:05.640 --> 1:21:09.439 the Ottom and also the Hispanics in the area. It's 1:21:09.439 --> 1:21:11.040 going to be a matter of pride for them and 1:21:11.080 --> 1:21:14.120 they're gonna want to have their interpretations. In fact, the 1:21:14.280 --> 1:21:17.400 autumn that we've brought out so far are really proud 1:21:17.479 --> 1:21:19.599 to be part of it so that they can start 1:21:19.640 --> 1:21:24.360 telling their story for a change. So I mean it 1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:27.400 has social implications. The fact that we've been able to 1:21:27.439 --> 1:21:30.200 find this stuff intact, that it hasn't been collected before. 1:21:30.240 --> 1:21:32.200 I'll stop harping. That's enough. But you got it. You 1:21:32.280 --> 1:21:35.000 got it covered. Could I want to ask my biggest questions? 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:40.679 You can describe the Canon within this, within this thing, 1:21:40.760 --> 1:21:45.519 but you found the oldest gun to ever turn up 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:50.040 in the US. Okay, Yep, it's been sitting there for 1:21:50.720 --> 1:21:53.800 I can't really do the math, four years when we 1:21:53.840 --> 1:21:57.240 found it. It's been sitting there for four years. And 1:21:57.360 --> 1:22:07.400 you find it kind of like built into an adobe wall. No, no, sitting, uh, 1:22:07.600 --> 1:22:12.160 inside a structure. So the structure walls were made of 1:22:12.200 --> 1:22:16.360 Adobe and rock and had collapsed on it to protect it. 1:22:16.800 --> 1:22:21.160 But I haven't done my question yet. Okay, what the 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:24.960 Hell did someone think that wall was? WHO's been looking 1:22:25.000 --> 1:22:28.360 at it? First, since, like, are there that many walls 1:22:28.400 --> 1:22:30.400 out there? They're like, Oh, I didn't know that the 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:34.600 Coronado expedition built that wall in my backyard. What was 1:22:34.640 --> 1:22:39.320 it regarded like? How is it perceived by the people 1:22:39.320 --> 1:22:42.080 who are occupying that area now? Okay, so first of 1:22:42.120 --> 1:22:45.439 all it's ranch land, but secondly there's no walls visible 1:22:45.439 --> 1:22:48.839 on the surface. So what happened is it was partially 1:22:48.880 --> 1:22:51.800 burned and collapsed at the end and it's melted into 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:55.360 the surface and my heart was somehow picturing it. They're like, Oh, 1:22:55.400 --> 1:22:58.639 I don't know what that old wall was, people passing 1:22:58.760 --> 1:23:07.880 it by for French today. Yeah, archeologists surface. Yeah, and 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:12.679 and so my question. Yeah, so my entire careers, career 1:23:12.720 --> 1:23:16.280 has been spent on identifying Apache, so viper, all these 1:23:16.280 --> 1:23:18.600 groups that are difficult to define, hard to see the 1:23:18.680 --> 1:23:21.639 archaeological evidence. And this is just as difficult, just as 1:23:21.640 --> 1:23:24.720 hard because it's a type of structure. The structure I'm 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:27.760 digging now is unlike the prehistoric stuff and unlike the 1:23:27.800 --> 1:23:30.040 later historic stuff, and that's what's so cool about it. 1:23:30.439 --> 1:23:33.559 So I've been digging it very carefully to try not 1:23:33.640 --> 1:23:36.320 to ruin it, because there's only one structure in the 1:23:36.479 --> 1:23:40.280 entire world that has coronado's cannon in it, m as 1:23:40.280 --> 1:23:43.760 far as we know. So, uh, so, I I have 1:23:43.840 --> 1:23:47.120 this responsibility which almost paralyzed me. You know, it's like 1:23:47.280 --> 1:23:50.120 in decision. What do I do? Because I have I 1:23:50.200 --> 1:23:55.200 have a responsibility as a professional. Uh Two, be as 1:23:55.200 --> 1:23:57.519 careful as I can and to preserve as much of 1:23:57.560 --> 1:24:00.320 it as possible. And so tell how you guys found thing. 1:24:00.760 --> 1:24:02.880 The cannon. Yeah, like, what was it doing and how 1:24:02.920 --> 1:24:05.240 did you find okay, it was laying there kind of 1:24:05.280 --> 1:24:10.040 smoking a cigarette. No, Um, only two of us were 1:24:10.080 --> 1:24:12.800 out in the field that day. So, uh, it was 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:19.479 in September of we were. I had just laid out 1:24:19.520 --> 1:24:21.600 that we lay out these tape lines so that we 1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:25.840 can systematically metal detect right and uh, Chris went ahead 1:24:25.880 --> 1:24:29.360 and got started and I finished laying out the lines 1:24:29.360 --> 1:24:32.920 and then I got started. In like five yards or 1:24:33.000 --> 1:24:36.519 meters into the first line I got a hit. It 1:24:36.600 --> 1:24:40.360 wasn't very strong, so I started digging it. As. Are 1:24:40.400 --> 1:24:43.760 you set for a specific type of metal? No, U. 1:24:43.960 --> 1:24:48.200 The detectors that I use are all medals. I got 1:24:48.240 --> 1:24:51.639 them set for all medals. UH, intentionally so, because most 1:24:51.640 --> 1:24:55.519 people looking for treasures and stuff are looking for gold 1:24:55.640 --> 1:24:58.599 or looking for, you know, old coins and stuff. We're 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:01.240 just as interested in the E and artifacts, the Ferris 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:04.880 artifacts is, we are other things like the nails are right. 1:25:05.560 --> 1:25:08.240 So I have the hardest time explaining to my kids 1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:11.360 that they're not going to find stone arrowheads with their metal. No, 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:14.200 you won't, but I explain it. It's twenty times, but 1:25:14.240 --> 1:25:17.160 it just doesn't click. They think it's an old thing, detector, 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:26.400 walk up on the street, find old people, right. No, Um, 1:25:26.439 --> 1:25:28.720 so all metals. In fact, I've had a hard time 1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:32.080 convincing my crew at times. Look, we can't discriminate. You've 1:25:32.080 --> 1:25:34.639 got to find everything. So you're digging through old twenty 1:25:34.640 --> 1:25:39.000 two shell casings and pull tabs off beer cans and, Um, 1:25:39.120 --> 1:25:41.960 I want to tell all the hunters out there please, please, 1:25:43.439 --> 1:25:47.040 we have so many. In fact, people yell out shotgun 1:25:47.479 --> 1:25:50.400 because we find so many shotgun shells. Uh. It's just 1:25:50.479 --> 1:25:53.519 absolutely incredible. A little bb size shot. We can we 1:25:53.560 --> 1:25:56.160 get that too? You're finding that. Oh yeah, our detectors 1:25:56.160 --> 1:25:58.800 are good and our crews are good, so we find 1:25:58.840 --> 1:26:01.439 really tiny stuff. You know, twenty two is all kinds 1:26:01.479 --> 1:26:04.880 of stuff. A lead shot. She should pair up with 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:08.920 Chris Parish. It's like a lead clean up at the 1:26:08.960 --> 1:26:12.280 same time as like an archaeological well, what we do 1:26:12.400 --> 1:26:14.160 is we collect that kind of stuff and then we 1:26:14.320 --> 1:26:17.679 dump it. But I always checked my cruise pockets because 1:26:17.920 --> 1:26:20.040 a couple of times, no, no, no, no, because a 1:26:20.080 --> 1:26:22.920 couple of times they don't take anything, but a couple 1:26:22.960 --> 1:26:26.600 of times something that was a value. We thought what 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:30.160 they thought was a piece of wire and it wasn't okay. So, 1:26:30.320 --> 1:26:33.439 like what we have is we have fish hooks, like 1:26:33.520 --> 1:26:36.599 size number six fish hooks. We have several of those 1:26:36.640 --> 1:26:41.040 and one with a weight. We have um little spring 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:47.439 things that went inside uh Um matchlocks and we lock guns. 1:26:48.000 --> 1:26:53.719 We have expedition had fish hooks. So they were fishing 1:26:53.760 --> 1:26:56.599 at our site because it's near water. Isn't that cool? 1:26:56.640 --> 1:26:58.240 We have several. I wouldn't have believed it if we 1:26:58.320 --> 1:27:00.760 just found one. But get a picture of that old 1:27:00.800 --> 1:27:04.599 ask Fishhook. Um, I'll see, we'll get it from you. Yeah, yeah, 1:27:04.680 --> 1:27:06.840 and then, and then, okay, but I interrupted. You tell 1:27:06.880 --> 1:27:08.720 me how you found the cannon. So there you are. 1:27:10.560 --> 1:27:14.040 Uh Yeah, so I I got a hit and I 1:27:14.080 --> 1:27:15.960 started digging down and it was about a foot under 1:27:15.960 --> 1:27:18.320 the ground and I thought this is really weird. What 1:27:18.439 --> 1:27:20.680 is this? And so I called Chris, because any time 1:27:20.720 --> 1:27:22.960 we find something cool we call the other person over. 1:27:23.520 --> 1:27:25.880 So he comes over and what is that? And I said, 1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:28.120 I don't know, maybe it's a bell, because it had 1:27:28.160 --> 1:27:31.760 that Cassoo Bell on top, you know, and uh, we 1:27:31.840 --> 1:27:34.519 kept digging. Finally he takes the metal detection he goes 1:27:34.640 --> 1:27:37.120 it's long. I wonder if it's an irrigation pipe. I said, 1:27:37.160 --> 1:27:39.000 it's not an irrigation pipe. What is it? You know 1:27:39.040 --> 1:27:43.559 there's no irrigation out here. Um. Anyway, so he kept 1:27:43.600 --> 1:27:47.160 digging it and realized started realizing what it was. And 1:27:47.880 --> 1:27:51.320 so the thing is, I sent you something. It shows 1:27:51.400 --> 1:27:54.000 the roots wrapped around the gun. So I called a 1:27:54.000 --> 1:27:56.400 couple other crew members who were the main crew members 1:27:56.439 --> 1:27:58.880 at the time. I said you gotta get out here. 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:01.400 We found this. I sent him a picture of it 1:28:02.040 --> 1:28:04.400 and uh, I said you've got to bring a sauce 1:28:04.439 --> 1:28:08.839 all or something, because we got these roots wrapped around it. So, uh, 1:28:09.000 --> 1:28:10.599 one of the people where he was able to come 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:12.880 out and he brought a sauceall and we were we 1:28:12.960 --> 1:28:14.760 knew by that point that it was pretty cool and 1:28:14.800 --> 1:28:16.719 that it was probably a canon or something. We didn't 1:28:16.920 --> 1:28:19.040 we've never seen one like that. Suite, how much of 1:28:19.040 --> 1:28:21.080 it were you looking at that moment, at that point 1:28:21.080 --> 1:28:23.240 in time? Like two inches of this thing? Are you 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:27.040 already looking at of it? Um, when I called people, 1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:31.000 was the one you were realizing that you had something 1:28:31.439 --> 1:28:34.879 pretty cool. Well, I realized it was pretty darn awesome 1:28:34.960 --> 1:28:38.880 when I first dug down and only saw let's say 1:28:39.160 --> 1:28:41.599 six inches of it because enough of the CASCA bell 1:28:41.840 --> 1:28:44.360 was exposed and I could tell it was a bronze 1:28:44.360 --> 1:28:46.519 like material. I didn't know it was bronze, but you know, 1:28:46.640 --> 1:28:51.120 something like that and uh, something unusual and Um, and 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:54.439 so I kept exposing it. But while I was digging it, 1:28:54.479 --> 1:28:56.920 I was also trying to figure out whether it was 1:28:56.960 --> 1:28:59.320 in some kind of pit or something, because the context, 1:28:59.360 --> 1:29:03.080 once again, is critical. So it turns out it wasn't. 1:29:03.120 --> 1:29:05.719 It was sitting on the floor of a destroyed structure 1:29:05.760 --> 1:29:09.240 from the battle. But UH, Chris took the metal detector 1:29:09.240 --> 1:29:11.320 and figured out it was real long. So we dug 1:29:11.360 --> 1:29:14.280 the whole thing and cleaned it out and stuff, and 1:29:14.320 --> 1:29:15.960 then the guy came out with a saws all and 1:29:16.040 --> 1:29:19.400 we were so protective. I was really glad I found 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:21.519 it because I know how to dig the things. So 1:29:21.560 --> 1:29:23.400 I didn't put any dings or anything on it. I 1:29:23.400 --> 1:29:25.400 mean that's that's kind of a source of pride, but 1:29:25.439 --> 1:29:29.000 also here's this rare artifact and I didn't want to 1:29:29.040 --> 1:29:31.719 damage it anyway. So when we were using the SAWS alls, 1:29:31.760 --> 1:29:34.240 we were putting our hands to protect the can and 1:29:34.240 --> 1:29:38.840 I can't believe we did that. Finally, I said no, 1:29:39.080 --> 1:29:42.599 don't do that. Put your glove down. I mean that's 1:29:42.640 --> 1:29:45.439 how crazy it was. It was starting to get hot. Uh, 1:29:45.520 --> 1:29:48.880 it was only September, but September can be it was 1:29:49.160 --> 1:29:52.439 already September, but September can still be hot. By the 1:29:52.479 --> 1:29:55.320 time we finished up, we were just dripped and sweat 1:29:55.360 --> 1:29:57.519 and we were out of water and there were three 1:29:57.560 --> 1:29:59.840 of us out there and we just I mean at 1:29:59.840 --> 1:30:01.760 that point it was just a man we were just 1:30:01.800 --> 1:30:04.120 glad to get it out of there. But the reason 1:30:04.200 --> 1:30:06.680 we had to get it out that day is I've 1:30:06.680 --> 1:30:08.880 always had I think all archaeologists do this. Once you 1:30:08.920 --> 1:30:12.160 find something cool, you can't just bury it and come 1:30:12.240 --> 1:30:14.040 back the next day and finish it, because you feel 1:30:14.080 --> 1:30:16.040 like all these eyes are on you, you know, like 1:30:16.400 --> 1:30:20.080 radio hosts following you out to the site. So you 1:30:20.160 --> 1:30:22.080 got to get it out. Something that important you got 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:23.680 to get out of the ground. So we stayed there 1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:25.880 until like two o'clock, I think it wasn't it, or 1:30:25.960 --> 1:30:38.519 just about dying it was hot. Describe the cannon like. 1:30:38.680 --> 1:30:40.840 How was it made? Where was it made? What would 1:30:40.880 --> 1:30:44.120 he use it for? Okay, so we've called it a 1:30:44.120 --> 1:30:46.400 wall gun, maybe a hack better, something as a hook, 1:30:46.600 --> 1:30:49.000 a gun with a hook on the bottom that they 1:30:49.000 --> 1:30:52.000 would put on a wall or parapet or something, or 1:30:52.040 --> 1:30:55.040 on a Tripod. Usually a shot by two men, one 1:30:55.160 --> 1:30:58.400 to light the match and the other one to hold it. Um. Yeah, 1:30:58.439 --> 1:31:01.320 God is a preliberal term and my thing for this thing. 1:31:01.760 --> 1:31:05.280 It is. But that's why that article that I gave you, 1:31:05.560 --> 1:31:08.720 I've written it with a weapons expert and all of 1:31:08.760 --> 1:31:12.559 his buddies have read it who are familiar with historic 1:31:12.720 --> 1:31:16.640 cannons and guns and so on. So guns a generic term. 1:31:16.680 --> 1:31:19.439 It is a cannon. But yeah, just a listener understands 1:31:19.439 --> 1:31:21.479 a little bit more about what you're describing it. It's 1:31:21.520 --> 1:31:29.840 basically like a in simple terms, it's like at you 1:31:29.880 --> 1:31:33.080 said seven gauge in the article. Yeah, yeah, I think 1:31:33.080 --> 1:31:38.519 it was like a millimeter. was roughly when it translated 1:31:38.600 --> 1:31:43.519 to yeah, the bore of it and surprisingly wasn't that heavy. 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:45.000 I thought it was gonna be a lot heavier, but 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:51.080 I think it cands around forty pounds and Um, it's uh, 1:31:51.120 --> 1:31:54.240 it's actually heavier than that. When people, everybody WHO's picked 1:31:54.240 --> 1:31:57.360 it up, point this is really kind of heavy. Um 1:31:57.439 --> 1:32:01.559 It uh. In two sites in the Albuquerque Bernolio area 1:32:01.640 --> 1:32:04.240 they found some of the shot that probably went with it. 1:32:04.560 --> 1:32:09.160 But at our site there's no walls too to bombard 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:13.760 with the larger shots. So we think that they were shooting, uh, 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:17.720 Buckshot or swan shot, you know, smaller lead balls. It 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:21.800 wasn't loaded. Wasn't when you found it. It wasn't. Yeah, 1:32:22.520 --> 1:32:24.240 you should have brought you should have brought that thing here. 1:32:24.280 --> 1:32:28.519 Was For us to take a game. And no stock either. 1:32:29.120 --> 1:32:32.080 No stock either. That was interesting. Like that Hook that 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:34.360 you were just talking about, like they think that they 1:32:34.439 --> 1:32:37.919 used to like use that as a way to control 1:32:38.040 --> 1:32:41.400 the weapon but also to manage the recoil a little bit. Exactly. 1:32:41.479 --> 1:32:43.639 Placed on the far side of a wall or the forest, 1:32:43.640 --> 1:32:45.200 the hook would be on the forest of a wall 1:32:45.360 --> 1:32:50.479 or a branch. So when the gun would recoil that, yeah, exactly, 1:32:50.479 --> 1:32:52.680 and that's probably part of what the two people in 1:32:52.720 --> 1:32:55.519 the tripod are about. Two because it would have knocked 1:32:55.560 --> 1:32:58.559 somebody over. Otherwise been pretty powerful, depending on the charge 1:32:58.560 --> 1:33:01.960 that was put in there. But yes, so, um, it's crude. 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:05.320 It doesn't seem to have makers marks. The PAN is 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:10.240 not dished out. UH, there's no decoration we have. The 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:13.240 PAN is not dished no, it's flat. So when they 1:33:13.280 --> 1:33:15.400 put priming powder around it is like would lay that 1:33:15.479 --> 1:33:18.040 priming powder around a flat little surface, Yep, and take 1:33:18.080 --> 1:33:21.640 a match and touch it to it and boom. Do 1:33:21.640 --> 1:33:23.519 you think it hadn't occurred to him to pan it out, 1:33:23.560 --> 1:33:27.360 like we're people panting out the archibuses and stuff by then? Yeah, 1:33:27.439 --> 1:33:30.160 it's just that's one reason we think it was made 1:33:30.160 --> 1:33:33.960 in Mexico, because we know that Cortez made a bunch. 1:33:34.120 --> 1:33:37.440 In fact, I've cided, I think, in that article Um, 1:33:38.360 --> 1:33:41.920 the quotations about how he made several. What we've discerned, too, 1:33:42.080 --> 1:33:44.599 is that this is actually a copper ally rather than 1:33:44.800 --> 1:33:48.840 really bronze. So it's a copper alloy, but they would 1:33:48.840 --> 1:33:51.400 have considered it bronze. It's close enough, you know. So 1:33:51.640 --> 1:33:53.000 for some reason I thought when I read your paper, 1:33:53.040 --> 1:33:54.439 I thought it was I thought you mentioned it being 1:33:54.479 --> 1:33:56.920 dished out, but it's just a flat little platform. Yeah, 1:33:57.400 --> 1:34:00.160 I'll show you a picture later, but it's just at 1:34:00.280 --> 1:34:03.240 and so there's a variety of reasons. Plus it would 1:34:03.240 --> 1:34:07.680 have been uh Um. Oh, here's the other thing. The 1:34:07.680 --> 1:34:09.960 the way you can see how it was cast. You 1:34:10.000 --> 1:34:12.920 can see the sprew marks on their still and as 1:34:13.200 --> 1:34:16.400 Um some of the experts have pointed out, no self 1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:19.880 respecting foundry in Spain would have left those on there. 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:22.880 You know, there's a matter of pride in making Nice firearms. 1:34:22.880 --> 1:34:25.600 So so there's a variety of reasons and several of 1:34:25.640 --> 1:34:27.880 the experts who we sent that paper to agreed that 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:30.040 it probably was made in Mexico, which is kind of cool. 1:34:30.920 --> 1:34:34.920 Who knows whether they made it specifically for this uh 1:34:35.120 --> 1:34:36.960 expedition or whether it was one of the ones that 1:34:37.479 --> 1:34:39.920 Cortez had. It certainly would have been. Would not have 1:34:40.000 --> 1:34:43.120 been a Columbus one, because his were iron as far 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:48.840 as we know. Man. Yeah, the oldest, you know, even though, yeah, 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:52.479 I said like gun, the oldest firearm whatever. We were 1:34:52.479 --> 1:34:54.200 trying to mix up the words, because you can only 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.320 use cannon or law that are hacked but so many times. 1:34:57.640 --> 1:35:02.880 But like the oldest gone found in the continental us 1:35:03.840 --> 1:35:06.800 and it's certainly the oldest bronze one. Uh, and it's 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:08.880 the only one from the CORNADO expedition. I mean it's 1:35:08.880 --> 1:35:11.640 pretty phenomenal, it's pretty cool. Uh. We called it our 1:35:11.680 --> 1:35:13.400 trophy for a while so we didn't have to tell 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:15.920 people what it was. Uh. You know, we're keeping it 1:35:15.960 --> 1:35:18.599 secret for a while so it really is our trophy artifact. 1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:21.920 There's UH, it's it's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah, 1:35:21.960 --> 1:35:24.800 it's kind of better than a helmet and a breastplate too, 1:35:25.000 --> 1:35:27.680 we decided. So have you found some of those? No, 1:35:27.840 --> 1:35:30.599 but we have found pieces of armor off those. And 1:35:30.640 --> 1:35:34.000 then there's two people in the area who found helmets, 1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:37.040 one of which has disappeared once again, is collected and 1:35:37.200 --> 1:35:39.240 is probably thrown away now, and the other one. I 1:35:39.280 --> 1:35:41.280 went up to talk to the guy and he was 1:35:41.320 --> 1:35:43.439 so secretive he wouldn't show it to me. So I'M 1:35:43.439 --> 1:35:47.200 gonna hopefully get a neighbor to go with me and 1:35:47.200 --> 1:35:50.120 and we'll talk him into how does he those are 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:54.639 probably traded right among the tribes. Well, here's the interesting thing. 1:35:55.200 --> 1:35:57.360 Given that there was a battle there and many people 1:35:57.400 --> 1:36:00.240 were killed and then everybody else dispersed, I sus bact 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:04.080 some were stashed in structures that the natives took somewhere, 1:36:04.120 --> 1:36:07.000 possibly buried, because that's how you did things when you 1:36:07.040 --> 1:36:09.280 wanted to store things at that time. You pretty much 1:36:09.280 --> 1:36:11.320 buried them if they are a value and they might 1:36:11.360 --> 1:36:14.320 have gotten dug up later. Um. In other cases, the 1:36:14.400 --> 1:36:17.160 natives killed some Spaniards and probably took them in. So 1:36:17.240 --> 1:36:20.880 some of them might have been uh ritually or ceremonially cashed. 1:36:21.400 --> 1:36:26.240 Some might have been destroyed uh in in retaliation, Um, 1:36:26.280 --> 1:36:28.679 some might have been traded to other people. There are 1:36:28.800 --> 1:36:33.479 pieces of armor reported all around, some which occur in 1:36:34.400 --> 1:36:37.800 the Apache area and Hacoma area, other natives of the time. 1:36:38.200 --> 1:36:40.599 So I suspect that they were in fact traded all 1:36:40.600 --> 1:36:43.719 over the place Um, and ended up, you know, across 1:36:43.800 --> 1:36:45.880 the landscape. That's why we have a halo of stuff 1:36:45.920 --> 1:36:50.439 around our site. Are you familiar with are you familiar with, Um, 1:36:50.640 --> 1:36:53.320 that Charlton has the movie called the mountain men? I 1:36:53.360 --> 1:36:57.320 should be in this. They go uh, it sort of 1:36:57.360 --> 1:37:00.880 takes place as the beaver getting diminished. Charlton Heston and 1:37:00.920 --> 1:37:04.679 his mountain man trapping partner go to a chief named 1:37:04.720 --> 1:37:08.120 iron belly who is supposed to be passing along to 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:10.400 them a hot tip about where there's still a lot 1:37:10.439 --> 1:37:15.320 of beaver left. And he is wearing Spanish armor, and 1:37:15.320 --> 1:37:18.439 that's kind of like a plot point. The iron belly 1:37:18.560 --> 1:37:21.720 has like old Spanish armor, and so it sort of 1:37:21.840 --> 1:37:25.920 lodes this way that stuff from that era was traded 1:37:25.920 --> 1:37:29.080 around and it's being like up in Wyoming but I 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:31.479 have a very hot tip for you, though. When you 1:37:31.520 --> 1:37:33.879 talk about the stat that there could be a stash 1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:37.400 of corneto helmets or whatever, do you know there's a 1:37:37.479 --> 1:37:40.320 rumor that after the battle of little big Horn, a 1:37:40.400 --> 1:37:44.280 bunch of the stuff, a bunch of the custer expedition stuff, 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:48.360 was stashed in the cave cool and somebody found it 1:37:48.360 --> 1:37:55.920 a hundred years ago. Now, supposedly there's like a cash 1:37:55.960 --> 1:37:59.240 and some people have seen it or not, of like 1:37:59.320 --> 1:38:02.439 stuff that was like pulled off of the custer's command 1:38:02.720 --> 1:38:05.200 and buried in a cave nearby. Well, you know, I 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:09.439 will say that, Um, if, if I hear all kinds 1:38:09.479 --> 1:38:12.320 of stories like this. In fact, I actually have some 1:38:12.360 --> 1:38:14.600 people call me up and then I questioned them a 1:38:14.680 --> 1:38:16.560 little bit and then they get a rate that I 1:38:16.600 --> 1:38:18.479 won't do the research for them or go out and 1:38:18.479 --> 1:38:21.200 find it for them. Uh. The latest one is some 1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:25.240 uh supposed gold bars found up in the superstition mountains 1:38:26.040 --> 1:38:28.160 that are actually quite sizeable and you can tell that 1:38:28.200 --> 1:38:31.519 they're painted gold and the earth around it is disturbed. 1:38:31.560 --> 1:38:33.720 I showed my brother, who's also an archaeologist, and I 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:36.320 go look at this and he laughed. They're clearly not 1:38:36.479 --> 1:38:38.559 gold bars. They're not. They don't even look like gold 1:38:38.560 --> 1:38:40.800 bars from that period. And and you can tell as 1:38:40.840 --> 1:38:43.280 an archaeologist that the ground looks like a garden. You know, 1:38:43.320 --> 1:38:46.280 it's all disturbed. And he's telling me all these other 1:38:46.280 --> 1:38:48.040 things and trying to get me to be his P 1:38:48.240 --> 1:38:50.960 I for some research project. And it's like, Oh, you 1:38:51.000 --> 1:38:53.120 don't even need to do any work. And he doesn't understand. 1:38:53.920 --> 1:38:57.559 I don't just pass my authority around like that. It's 1:38:57.600 --> 1:38:59.040 if I'm going to be your P I, I'm going 1:38:59.080 --> 1:39:01.960 to do the work right. It's my reputation on the line. 1:39:02.000 --> 1:39:04.400 So but anyway, I get requests all the time of 1:39:04.640 --> 1:39:09.920 people lost, Dutchman mine gold, the iron door that's, you know, 1:39:10.600 --> 1:39:14.840 closing off of mine, the old Jesuit Gold, uh, paintings, 1:39:15.040 --> 1:39:18.000 religious paintings that have keys to where the gold is, 1:39:18.080 --> 1:39:19.880 and all this. I mean, I get it all the 1:39:19.960 --> 1:39:23.160 time and uh, you know, you can have a share 1:39:23.160 --> 1:39:25.559 of it or or you can't have a share of it, 1:39:25.600 --> 1:39:27.040 but I'll give you this. You know what I mean. 1:39:27.080 --> 1:39:31.160 It's just like I'm surprised Dan Brown hasn't reached out 1:39:31.200 --> 1:39:35.720 to you to do a and do a book. But 1:39:35.840 --> 1:39:38.880 do you do you actually then ever work. As you're saying, 1:39:38.880 --> 1:39:40.720 it's like a P I for somebody. Have you've been 1:39:40.800 --> 1:39:43.320 hired out to do a project that you have accepted 1:39:43.680 --> 1:39:47.519 along those lines? No, not along those lines, because I 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:50.920 asked a lot of questions for I mean, I had 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:54.760 a professor one time who said I send all the 1:39:54.800 --> 1:39:57.080 crack pots to you because I don't want to deal 1:39:57.160 --> 1:40:00.439 with them, and I said you really is that one 1:40:00.439 --> 1:40:03.000 of these is going to come through one of these days. 1:40:03.040 --> 1:40:05.720 But what I do is I talk to people and 1:40:06.080 --> 1:40:09.000 usually I see through the story or I asked so 1:40:09.040 --> 1:40:12.360 many questions that they just stop. UH, stop asking and 1:40:12.400 --> 1:40:16.120 stop communicating with me, because if I'm got to waste 1:40:16.160 --> 1:40:21.160 my time, I want to make sure it's real. Um, 1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:24.920 I don't do that kind of work anymore for anybody else. 1:40:25.160 --> 1:40:28.000 The only reason I would do it for the most 1:40:28.040 --> 1:40:31.120 part is, uh, if it was of a research interest 1:40:31.320 --> 1:40:33.920 interest to me. I have a couple of projects going 1:40:33.960 --> 1:40:36.920 on now. One is actually paid and I retired years ago. 1:40:36.960 --> 1:40:39.040 I just sold my company and do research full time. 1:40:40.400 --> 1:40:45.000 I started that in my mid forties. Um. So right 1:40:45.040 --> 1:40:46.920 now I'm working on the communee real in the El 1:40:46.960 --> 1:40:50.480 Paso area at Los Crusis a Passo area and interviewing 1:40:50.680 --> 1:40:54.040 natives about the trail that became a Spanish trail and 1:40:54.280 --> 1:40:57.320 cultural patterns and landscape and stuff, and then this coronado stuff. 1:40:57.320 --> 1:41:00.439 Anything I do other than Coronado distracts me from Coronado 1:41:00.479 --> 1:41:02.280 and that's all I want to do right now, and 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:04.840 you can tell that I'm really into what I do 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:07.439 and so anything that takes me away from that just 1:41:07.520 --> 1:41:10.040 as kind of you know, go away. I don't want 1:41:10.040 --> 1:41:12.240 to deal with it. But if somebody calls me up 1:41:12.240 --> 1:41:14.880 and they have a legitimate fine, or if they think 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:18.040 they do, I treat them with respect because people are 1:41:18.040 --> 1:41:20.160 interested and there's a lot of people out there who 1:41:20.240 --> 1:41:23.400 have genuine interest or genuine find and I don't want 1:41:23.439 --> 1:41:26.480 to diminish those uh, in fact we want to incorporate 1:41:26.520 --> 1:41:28.880 them into the record if, if they are real. But 1:41:28.920 --> 1:41:32.840 there's so many people. Uh, you know, one of the 1:41:32.920 --> 1:41:35.599 questions that I got asked earlier was how did these 1:41:35.640 --> 1:41:40.720 people believe this uh wild stories about gold and stuff? Well, 1:41:40.720 --> 1:41:44.799 one is because in Mexico and Central America, South America, 1:41:44.800 --> 1:41:47.200 excuse me, they had found gold. But the other thing 1:41:47.280 --> 1:41:49.960 is even today you look around and people believe the 1:41:49.960 --> 1:41:54.360 most outrageous things. And you know, one person looks at 1:41:54.360 --> 1:41:56.519 the evidence and says that's B S and another one 1:41:56.560 --> 1:41:59.439 looks at it and goes wow, they have images of, 1:41:59.640 --> 1:42:02.599 you know, mountains of gold or whatever it is, and 1:42:02.680 --> 1:42:06.920 so it's just imagine, it's just a matter of people 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:11.680 have always been attracted two legends. People have always been 1:42:11.680 --> 1:42:14.719 attracted to the goal just beyond. You know, that's why 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:18.280 so many people play the lottery and stuff and go 1:42:18.360 --> 1:42:20.120 to the dog track or the horse track. I mean 1:42:20.120 --> 1:42:23.640 it's this chance of winning big. What is not to 1:42:23.760 --> 1:42:27.080 be exciting about that? I mean that's just you know, 1:42:27.479 --> 1:42:30.880 that's why people eat lucky charms for breakfast. Here you go. 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:38.400 Do you feel that? If you imagine the the cannon 1:42:39.439 --> 1:42:43.360 location as a center of a circle, what is the 1:42:43.520 --> 1:42:49.320 radius that you're interested in? Like after this battle, I 1:42:49.320 --> 1:42:54.920 mean they probably whatever, like dismembered, somebodies buried, Um, like 1:42:55.080 --> 1:42:59.720 stuff happened, right. I mean there was a lot of stuff. Well, 1:42:59.760 --> 1:43:02.400 the is a kilometer long as we understand it now. 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:07.160 So that's UH, ten football fields, okay, and and six 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:11.439 of those wide, including the lookout stations. It's probably going 1:43:11.479 --> 1:43:13.040 to be a kilometer and a half long by the 1:43:13.040 --> 1:43:14.840 time we finished, we just had to stop because of 1:43:14.880 --> 1:43:20.519 the heat. But uh, we have evidence of occupation and 1:43:20.600 --> 1:43:23.360 battle throughout that area. In fact, one area we have 1:43:23.640 --> 1:43:25.519 what they called weapons of the land. We have some 1:43:25.560 --> 1:43:28.280 of those, in other words what the people who weren't 1:43:29.479 --> 1:43:34.439 shooting arquebuses and shooting crossbows were using, in other words 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:36.960 what they gathered, what the natives made for them or 1:43:36.960 --> 1:43:40.080 they made themselves. So we have these different areas. We 1:43:40.120 --> 1:43:43.200 can see the Spaniards being chased across the landscape, we 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:47.080 can see them battle, moving and so on. Um, so 1:43:47.120 --> 1:43:49.559 I forget what your question was. I'm sorry. How big 1:43:49.600 --> 1:43:51.320 of an area? I was asked like how big of 1:43:51.320 --> 1:43:57.280 an area, because they're like stuff's gotta be there, there 1:43:57.360 --> 1:44:02.040 is stuff there, right. But well, like I said, we're 1:44:02.040 --> 1:44:06.760 not looking for bodies right now. Yeah, so that's a 1:44:06.760 --> 1:44:10.519 whole different approach, right. You can't metal detect form. Well, 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:13.400 if they have knives in them and so on, you could, 1:44:13.760 --> 1:44:16.120 but no remembers. You saying if you find a body, 1:44:16.200 --> 1:44:19.400 it's kind of yeah, I'll go down there and take 1:44:19.400 --> 1:44:25.320 a look. Where's this place? Where's this place again? It's 1:44:25.360 --> 1:44:31.559 in South America, Patagonia, down there. Um, but how many 1:44:31.600 --> 1:44:34.439 years will you spend there? You think, UM, probably five. 1:44:34.680 --> 1:44:36.760 And the reason I say five, I've been saying that 1:44:36.800 --> 1:44:39.160 since the beginning, is because it's going to take a lot. 1:44:39.240 --> 1:44:42.400 We're only about half done metal detecting. Plus, we in 1:44:42.439 --> 1:44:44.760 the part that we know about and then we got 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:46.280 to expand it to the north and south. I think 1:44:46.320 --> 1:44:49.559 it does go further. Uh. Plus, I want to keep 1:44:49.600 --> 1:44:52.040 digging this and a few other structures, but we want 1:44:52.080 --> 1:44:54.000 to leave some in place and I think they're about 1:44:54.000 --> 1:44:56.920 five years. That's enough damage, because what we do is 1:44:57.000 --> 1:45:00.080 archaeologists damages the site. Whether we like to think that 1:45:00.120 --> 1:45:02.479 way or not, we know it does. I'm taking things 1:45:02.479 --> 1:45:05.120 out of context. What I'm doing is I'm putting markers 1:45:05.160 --> 1:45:09.960 down and, uh, using a global positioning system unit to 1:45:10.080 --> 1:45:12.080 mark where they're at so we can know exactly where 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:14.479 they came from. And then the whole thing is gritted 1:45:14.479 --> 1:45:18.560 and stuff. Now, not the whole thing, but where we're digging. So, Um, 1:45:18.600 --> 1:45:21.800 what my goal is is to drive just enough information 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:25.880 that I can convince all reasonable people, and maybe even 1:45:25.960 --> 1:45:28.599 some of the serious skeptics, that we actually have the 1:45:28.640 --> 1:45:32.960 town site of San Hieronimo three, that it's actually a 1:45:33.000 --> 1:45:35.840 place where they built structures, where a lot of people lived, 1:45:36.120 --> 1:45:38.960 where other activities went on and so on. Uh, and 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:41.160 then I'll stop and save it for the future. I 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:43.320 want to I want to explain to listeners a little 1:45:43.320 --> 1:45:45.000 bit of what you're talking about by saving it for 1:45:45.000 --> 1:45:49.519 the future. And it's just an archaeological site that I'm 1:45:49.600 --> 1:45:51.720 kind of the only one I have any real level of, 1:45:53.400 --> 1:45:59.880 you know, Armchair Authority on. would be when the folsome 1:46:00.040 --> 1:46:03.759 site where they found it was kind of the smoking 1:46:03.800 --> 1:46:08.000 gun of humans in America during the Ice Age, where 1:46:08.040 --> 1:46:13.760 they found Bison skeletons intermixed with projectile points. When they 1:46:13.760 --> 1:46:16.400 originally dug it, they were just looking for big ship 1:46:17.200 --> 1:46:21.599 they're looking for big bones. Later people had to go back, 1:46:22.040 --> 1:46:25.439 archaeologists later went back and had to go sift their 1:46:25.479 --> 1:46:29.600 debris pile for all the stuff they didn't think to 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:35.320 look for, which is really helpful. Like no one thought pollen, right, 1:46:35.439 --> 1:46:37.880 no one thought about just like small chunks of wood, 1:46:38.280 --> 1:46:43.040 little bits of charcoal, whatever else. And then later, like now, right, 1:46:43.080 --> 1:46:44.680 they have this idea that, man, if we could have 1:46:44.800 --> 1:46:51.880 just found the sort of plant matter mixed in with 1:46:51.880 --> 1:46:53.879 that stuff, it tell you something like what the climate 1:46:53.960 --> 1:46:57.200 was like you know, timey year stuff and all that. 1:46:57.720 --> 1:46:59.439 So I like like when you say like save something 1:46:59.439 --> 1:47:02.000 like who knows, and in a hundred years you might 1:47:02.200 --> 1:47:04.000 go and take a little dirt and run it through 1:47:04.000 --> 1:47:05.519 some machine and it will be like no, there's a 1:47:05.520 --> 1:47:09.200 women here. That's exactly my point. We cannot predict what 1:47:09.320 --> 1:47:11.280 future technologies are going to be able to tell us, 1:47:11.560 --> 1:47:13.439 what the future analyses are going to be able to 1:47:13.439 --> 1:47:16.240 tell us, and that's what we have to be cognizant of. 1:47:16.320 --> 1:47:19.800 I'm collecting as much data as I can. Well, you know, 1:47:20.000 --> 1:47:22.240 like I said, this is the only coronado structure that 1:47:22.240 --> 1:47:24.680 we know of that has a cannon in it. So 1:47:24.720 --> 1:47:26.760 I have a responsibility there. Now I would only dig 1:47:26.840 --> 1:47:28.960 half of it if I could figure the structure out 1:47:28.960 --> 1:47:31.559 without digging the whole thing, but I need to dig 1:47:31.560 --> 1:47:34.160 the whole thing, unfortunately, and I'm going to dig some 1:47:34.200 --> 1:47:36.240 others that are associated with it, but for the most 1:47:36.240 --> 1:47:38.240 part the town site is going to remain intact so 1:47:38.280 --> 1:47:42.200 that some other professional can come and ask new questions, uh, 1:47:42.439 --> 1:47:46.719 using new technologies, new types of analyzes, and answer questions 1:47:46.720 --> 1:47:49.519 that I can't even fathom right now. But in terms 1:47:49.600 --> 1:47:56.679 of you demonstrating like hey, this is something that needs 1:47:56.720 --> 1:47:59.200 to be paid attention to and needs to be protected. 1:47:59.240 --> 1:48:01.920 I mean you gotta be Oh, we're there. I was 1:48:01.960 --> 1:48:04.800 there basically the first day. I mean, you know, the 1:48:04.840 --> 1:48:07.719 first first day we had like a half a dozen 1:48:08.160 --> 1:48:10.400 of the gabled headed nails, and then the second day 1:48:10.400 --> 1:48:12.080 we had a crossbow bolt head with many more of 1:48:12.120 --> 1:48:14.280 them and other artifacts, and then it just kept building. 1:48:14.640 --> 1:48:16.680 And so we knew we had coronado. At that time 1:48:16.720 --> 1:48:18.680 I thought it was just an encampment and then it 1:48:18.720 --> 1:48:20.760 got bigger and bigger. So even if it was just 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:22.919 an encampment with just those things, that would be important 1:48:22.960 --> 1:48:25.240 because none had been found in Arizona. None had been 1:48:25.240 --> 1:48:29.840 found in the fift miles between Compostella and Zuni. Right. 1:48:30.120 --> 1:48:33.320 So Uh. So, in and of itself that was important. 1:48:33.400 --> 1:48:36.000 And then after a while it's I tried to explain 1:48:36.040 --> 1:48:38.519 the battle ofvience away other ways, because that's what I'm 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:41.040 supposed to do as an archaeologists consider all of the 1:48:41.120 --> 1:48:44.960 possible explanations for what I'm finding, and finally I had 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:47.719 to settle on the battle. And then once we figured 1:48:47.760 --> 1:48:49.720 out it was a battle site, then I started back 1:48:49.800 --> 1:48:52.799 checking through the records, recognizing that maybe not all battles 1:48:52.800 --> 1:48:55.160 were accounted for in the documents because they weren't supposed 1:48:55.160 --> 1:48:58.599 to be fighting the natives. But it started making sense 1:48:58.640 --> 1:49:01.759 with it being sent heronomous. So I don't think anybody 1:49:01.800 --> 1:49:04.479 who's actually heard the data, seeing the data and so on, 1:49:04.520 --> 1:49:06.880 and we've had lots of archaeologists and historians of the site, 1:49:06.880 --> 1:49:09.120 I don't think they questioned that at Suya in the 1:49:09.120 --> 1:49:11.840 Siuja Valley, send heronimo three in the Suja Valley. I 1:49:11.880 --> 1:49:15.080 think the questions are is um whether it was an 1:49:15.080 --> 1:49:19.080 actual official town site, because that was a contractual thing 1:49:19.479 --> 1:49:22.639 with the king, and I'm arguing that. I think there's 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:25.280 enough evidence in the documentary reacted to say that there 1:49:25.320 --> 1:49:28.000 that it was. And then the other thing that some 1:49:28.040 --> 1:49:31.360 of the people are disputing is the way the route went. Well, 1:49:31.400 --> 1:49:33.840 I have four sights and they line up West East. 1:49:34.600 --> 1:49:37.320 At this point I'm trying to check other possibilities, but 1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:40.200 right now that's what it's suggesting, which might suggest a 1:49:40.280 --> 1:49:43.680 route that's a little further west, even in in Sonora. 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:48.600 But that the reason I object to everybody insisting that 1:49:48.680 --> 1:49:51.439 it goes up the Sonora and then down the San 1:49:51.520 --> 1:49:53.720 Pedro and it has to be that with a sidetrack 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:56.760 is because that's what everybody's thought and they haven't found 1:49:56.760 --> 1:49:59.799 any evidence of Coronado. And here I found evidence Coronado 1:49:59.800 --> 1:50:03.920 Becau has. I haven't accepted that as God's turn. Yeah, 1:50:03.920 --> 1:50:11.040 you thought that's not the route. Yeah, that's kind of 1:50:11.080 --> 1:50:13.599 my point. That's how we archaeologists constructive and they think 1:50:13.640 --> 1:50:15.320 it's a side route. I said, well, did you find 1:50:15.320 --> 1:50:18.760 the evidence there? So I'm trying to check. I'd love 1:50:18.760 --> 1:50:22.080 to see the main route. Yeah, exactly, but I mean 1:50:22.320 --> 1:50:25.200 that's the whole point here. Is the thing that irritates 1:50:25.240 --> 1:50:27.400 me about that is they keep trying to pull me 1:50:27.439 --> 1:50:29.519 back into the Rut of old thinking, and the only 1:50:29.520 --> 1:50:31.960 reason I'm finding this is I'm thinking outside the box. 1:50:32.000 --> 1:50:35.200 I'm I'm considering all other possibilities that I can think 1:50:35.240 --> 1:50:38.479 of and as I search and find things, the new 1:50:38.520 --> 1:50:40.920 possibilities come to mind and I check those out. So 1:50:41.200 --> 1:50:43.080 if they keep trying to pull me back into the 1:50:43.680 --> 1:50:45.680 you know, it has to be Sonora River and it 1:50:45.720 --> 1:50:48.320 has to be San Pedro, then I start thinking like 1:50:48.640 --> 1:50:51.519 everybody's been thinking and I need to think. Okay, I've 1:50:51.520 --> 1:50:53.559 got four sites, how do I connect them? I have 1:50:53.640 --> 1:50:56.360 a fifth artifact that needs to somehow come into that, 1:50:56.400 --> 1:50:59.800 plus this halo of things. How would those fit together? Well, 1:51:00.120 --> 1:51:02.400 trying to connect the two on the West to the 1:51:02.479 --> 1:51:05.519 two on the east, on the southeast. Is that one 1:51:05.520 --> 1:51:07.719 trail or do we have two trails or more trails? 1:51:08.680 --> 1:51:10.640 You know, the funny thing about this rock art that 1:51:10.680 --> 1:51:13.080 I brought up earlier is there's a signature on the 1:51:13.080 --> 1:51:15.519 side of the Rock and it looks it's scratched in 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:17.120 and it looks like it says t o b a 1:51:17.320 --> 1:51:19.439 R and that was one of the captain, one of 1:51:19.479 --> 1:51:27.240 the lieutenants, uh, Pedro Da Tovar, and uh, I think 1:51:27.280 --> 1:51:29.800 people are gonna want to know this. How does one 1:51:30.000 --> 1:51:33.840 date stuff it scratched into a rock? You don't. I 1:51:33.840 --> 1:51:37.800 mean if it's scratched in. Basically, on the rock art 1:51:37.840 --> 1:51:39.400 that I showed you can see that some of it 1:51:39.479 --> 1:51:42.839 is older than others because some has regained some weathering 1:51:42.920 --> 1:51:46.280 on it right. So if you have one rock you 1:51:46.320 --> 1:51:49.960 can tell by some is older because it's more weather 1:51:50.240 --> 1:51:53.599 and some is fresher. Some of it overlies older stuff. 1:51:53.640 --> 1:51:56.759 So that's one way. It's all relative dating. But also, 1:51:56.960 --> 1:52:00.680 as I was kind of discussing earlier, uh, if you 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:08.480 analyze this rock art in relation to a codex from Cortes, 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:14.360 the Cortes period in Mexico, you can see that the dress, shoes, 1:52:14.520 --> 1:52:18.160 hat and everything is just like what cortes is wearing 1:52:18.200 --> 1:52:22.320 in one of the images. So Um. So basically that's 1:52:22.320 --> 1:52:24.400 another way to data as well. Now, that's not going 1:52:24.439 --> 1:52:26.400 to convince everybody, and not everybody is going to be 1:52:26.400 --> 1:52:30.759 convinced that the signature says Tobar. There's also a cross 1:52:30.800 --> 1:52:33.800 above it, which is what Spaniards did when they were 1:52:34.600 --> 1:52:37.960 signing their name and documents and writing documents on paper. 1:52:38.120 --> 1:52:41.439 So I mean, if we just had that, then I'd 1:52:41.479 --> 1:52:44.840 say maybe some natives saw that, saw the expedition in 1:52:44.840 --> 1:52:47.439 a different valley and carved it when they got home. 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:51.519 But we have coronado artifacts associated with it, uh, and 1:52:51.760 --> 1:52:54.120 we have these clearings. So it looks like it's campsite. 1:52:54.120 --> 1:52:58.200 Now it's possible that it's a side route or a 1:52:58.280 --> 1:53:04.360 second route. We know that Pedro Tovar went on other 1:53:04.960 --> 1:53:08.799 side trips. He took a detachment and went and discovered 1:53:08.800 --> 1:53:11.880 other places or inspected other places and so on. People 1:53:11.920 --> 1:53:14.800 were already there, so it wasn't discovered. But uh, so 1:53:14.840 --> 1:53:16.760 it's very likely that when they were coming through they 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:18.760 were looking for an alternate route and he may have 1:53:18.800 --> 1:53:21.680 gone off. So it's possible. So that's the third possibility. 1:53:21.800 --> 1:53:26.440 We have two routes. We have a route that UH, 1:53:26.640 --> 1:53:29.720 dips down to the southeast and connects them all, or 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:33.639 we have one route to the northeast from where we're at, 1:53:33.760 --> 1:53:36.479 and this is a side trip where he went to 1:53:36.520 --> 1:53:40.000 look to see if there was gold or water. You know, uh, 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:42.559 we may be able to tell by the time I finish, 1:53:42.640 --> 1:53:44.559 but at a certain point I'm going to stop looking 1:53:44.560 --> 1:53:46.160 and somebody else is gonna have to fill in and 1:53:46.200 --> 1:53:48.080 I get to tell the story I the way I want, 1:53:48.120 --> 1:53:50.000 if I'm the one looking for the sites and finding them. 1:53:51.320 --> 1:53:53.800 Will you stay on? Will you stay on Coronado till 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:55.800 you die, or you think you'll get onto something, get 1:53:55.840 --> 1:53:58.080 onto something else? Well, I'm planning to live to a 1:53:58.320 --> 1:54:00.080 D and twenty, so I think by the time I 1:54:00.080 --> 1:54:02.640 get to a hundred I'm probably gonna stop looking, but 1:54:02.840 --> 1:54:04.960 you're gonna stay on the Coronado deal as long as 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:07.360 it's interesting to me. That's how I do things. I 1:54:07.400 --> 1:54:11.880 don't have to do this, I do this because it's interesting. 1:54:12.560 --> 1:54:14.519 I feel like I'm at the top of my career. 1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:19.439 I've spent all this time learning how to do this well, uh, 1:54:19.479 --> 1:54:22.600 and there's nothing I'd rather do in retirement. This is 1:54:22.640 --> 1:54:26.200 kind of my golf game and uh, I'm not really 1:54:26.320 --> 1:54:29.839 especially in the Gulf. So it's my way of uh, 1:54:30.080 --> 1:54:35.280 entertaining myself, keeping my mind engaged, staying healthy mentally when 1:54:35.320 --> 1:54:37.280 I'm out in the field. It keeps me healthy and 1:54:37.320 --> 1:54:42.840 physically it's good exercise, Um, and it's so intriguing. It's 1:54:42.880 --> 1:54:45.959 for me. You know, the people in the Coronado expedition. 1:54:46.000 --> 1:54:48.320 Someone went to get rich and everything, but everybody was 1:54:48.400 --> 1:54:51.240 kind of on an adventure, which is unfortunate for the 1:54:51.320 --> 1:54:54.240 native people. That's kind of what modern tourism is like. 1:54:54.280 --> 1:54:57.640 In a way. We kind of damage cultures as we 1:54:57.720 --> 1:55:02.280 go and embark on our adventures. But Um, but in 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:06.200 a way this is an adventure for me. I'm discovering 1:55:06.200 --> 1:55:09.920 new things. Uh, it's every day is an adventure. I mean, 1:55:10.160 --> 1:55:12.560 people the crew keeps saying the site keeps giving it's 1:55:12.560 --> 1:55:15.680 amazing what we thought it was and how it keeps 1:55:15.720 --> 1:55:19.920 growing and all this interesting UH knowledge and artifacts that 1:55:20.000 --> 1:55:22.680 keep coming out that allow us to enrich the story 1:55:23.160 --> 1:55:25.240 and as long as it keeps doing that and as 1:55:25.280 --> 1:55:28.160 long as people keep giving me access landowners, and as 1:55:28.240 --> 1:55:29.880 long as we keep finding things, and as long as 1:55:29.920 --> 1:55:32.480 I continue to have volunteers who are as enthusiastic and 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:35.920 dedicated as they are, I'll just keep doing it until 1:55:35.920 --> 1:55:37.640 I get tired of it or I run out of money. 1:55:37.920 --> 1:55:40.800 You know, this is all self supported, although I did 1:55:40.800 --> 1:55:43.879 have a couple of donors recently donate to the research 1:55:43.960 --> 1:55:46.800 part and then we've had some donors donate to the film, 1:55:47.320 --> 1:55:49.720 documentary film, but we need a lot more donors to 1:55:49.720 --> 1:55:54.960 make that happen. So tell and conclusion, tell us how 1:55:56.160 --> 1:55:59.760 you know if someone wants to volunteer or lens support, like, 1:55:59.800 --> 1:56:03.080 how was the best way to go learn about what 1:56:03.160 --> 1:56:07.600 you have going on, connect with you or your people. If, if, 1:56:07.640 --> 1:56:09.960 if someone, someone's like Hey, I got one of them 1:56:09.960 --> 1:56:12.440 bronze hats. Well, if they have one of those, they 1:56:12.440 --> 1:56:15.080 can talk to you guys and get my phone number directly, 1:56:16.760 --> 1:56:19.960 but it's better be real, not one of those Uh 1:56:20.440 --> 1:56:24.600 tinfoil ones, Um uh. Well, I have a web page 1:56:24.640 --> 1:56:28.880 that has some contact information on there, and the film, 1:56:29.400 --> 1:56:34.120 Uh documentary films by Professional Documentary Film Crew Francis Kasi 1:56:34.200 --> 1:56:38.360 Films and uh they she has a web page. Uh 1:56:38.400 --> 1:56:40.520 and uh do you have a title for that yet 1:56:40.640 --> 1:56:43.840 or for the film? No, we haven't decided. But we 1:56:43.880 --> 1:56:47.360 have cornado films ll LC, and there's ways that people 1:56:47.400 --> 1:56:50.200 can donate to that, either directly, if they don't need 1:56:50.240 --> 1:56:55.720 a tax deduction, or through from the heart productions, which 1:56:55.760 --> 1:56:58.960 is a nonprofit. So you can get a tax credit 1:56:59.040 --> 1:57:01.960 for that. And then I have an organization that I'm 1:57:01.960 --> 1:57:04.560 working with that UH takes the money in for the 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:08.839 research and would take sizeable sums in or small sums 1:57:09.080 --> 1:57:11.600 for the film, without taking anything off the top. So 1:57:12.000 --> 1:57:14.000 there's a variety of ways to do it and I 1:57:14.000 --> 1:57:17.839 would appreciate it because, like I said, I totally self funded, 1:57:18.160 --> 1:57:20.360 except for these more recent donations that have coming in. 1:57:20.400 --> 1:57:23.880 People are really getting thrilled about what we're finding and 1:57:23.920 --> 1:57:26.600 so on. You gotta have some universities beating your door 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:34.560 down now. Oh No, they're jealous. Um, don't forget to 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:38.360 mention you have a youtube channel with some interesting like 1:57:38.920 --> 1:57:41.120 a little about dating, like you're asking like how do 1:57:41.160 --> 1:57:45.280 you know when you're looking at whatever? Just mentioned that, 1:57:45.360 --> 1:57:49.080 and then also your academia web page with like all 1:57:49.120 --> 1:57:53.080 of your papers, books. I mean there's so much open 1:57:53.160 --> 1:57:55.680 information that we could where we can go to read 1:57:55.760 --> 1:57:59.000 your work right. So on Youtube, it's just under my name. 1:57:59.040 --> 1:58:00.680 You can find it and there's some corn on that 1:58:00.760 --> 1:58:03.080 other stuff, D e n I, and then s e 1:58:03.360 --> 1:58:06.760 y m o U R, and then the academia page 1:58:06.800 --> 1:58:12.000 the same. It's under independent UH researcher. I think. Also 1:58:12.160 --> 1:58:15.440 with research gate, same thing, although that has fewer articles. 1:58:15.440 --> 1:58:17.480 You can download articles for free on there. You don't 1:58:17.480 --> 1:58:19.760 have to pay to get on UH. And then I 1:58:19.760 --> 1:58:21.960 have a Web page that I'm just starting up. The 1:58:22.040 --> 1:58:24.120 old one I forgot to pay for and it's kind 1:58:24.120 --> 1:58:27.840 of a funk, so I'm starting to do Um, it 1:58:27.880 --> 1:58:33.320 needed to be updated anyway. Yeah, and all your listeners, 1:58:33.360 --> 1:58:36.240 I will link to this and all of her I'll 1:58:36.280 --> 1:58:40.400 link to all of this in the show notes and Um. Yeah, 1:58:40.440 --> 1:58:42.440 and the film is really what we're looking for funding 1:58:42.440 --> 1:58:44.440 for now. I just saw a rough cut of it 1:58:44.600 --> 1:58:47.720 the other day. Oh, it was fabulous. I was scared 1:58:47.760 --> 1:58:51.160 because I we archaeologists like to be behind the camera, 1:58:51.280 --> 1:58:53.280 not in front, and so I was prepared to be 1:58:53.320 --> 1:58:56.400 really embarrassed. They did in a phenomenal ask as a 1:58:56.400 --> 1:59:01.840 host seriously because you care, but not too much. It's 1:59:01.840 --> 1:59:07.320 like a sweet spot. Well, thank you, I've got I've 1:59:07.360 --> 1:59:09.280 got one more last question. It might be the most 1:59:09.320 --> 1:59:12.160 important one, to be honest. I mean in the film 1:59:12.200 --> 1:59:16.640 Indiana Jones and the last crusade, that movie opens with 1:59:17.000 --> 1:59:20.680 River Phoenix as a young Indiana Jones, stumbling onto some 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:23.720 grave robbers, if you want to call him that, finding 1:59:23.720 --> 1:59:26.280 a crucifix from the Coronado Expedition, and then he has 1:59:26.400 --> 1:59:28.480 to he tries to protect it and escapes. I'm just 1:59:28.520 --> 1:59:31.760 wondering if you two have ever, uh, protected any of 1:59:31.800 --> 1:59:35.080 your fines by by jumping onto a passing circus train 1:59:35.200 --> 1:59:38.320 and falling into a pit of snakes, leading into your 1:59:38.400 --> 1:59:40.880 lifelong phobia of snakes that will follow you over the restaurant. 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:45.200 I do have a lifelong phobia of rattle snakes because 1:59:45.240 --> 1:59:47.720 I've run into probably a thousand of them since I 1:59:47.760 --> 1:59:51.400 was a little tiny girl. Um, I did find Coronado's 1:59:51.400 --> 1:59:56.320 cross on our site. One day. Two of my crew 1:59:56.320 --> 1:59:59.120 members called me over and they had an ice chest 1:59:59.200 --> 2:00:01.120 right there, so I kind of knew something was up. 2:00:01.560 --> 2:00:04.520 Metal detective and they had planted this Coronado's cross with 2:00:04.560 --> 2:00:14.120 fake jewels on it. Yeah, so, normally we don't plant 2:00:14.120 --> 2:00:16.560 things like that because it can distract, you know, but 2:00:16.600 --> 2:00:19.000 I thought it was pretty funny. So so I wrote 2:00:19.080 --> 2:00:24.800 to Harrison Ford asking if he would contribute, because here's 2:00:24.920 --> 2:00:30.080 the real, you know, real deal here. Uh, and I 2:00:30.120 --> 2:00:32.840 never heard back from his agent. But Um, if you're 2:00:32.880 --> 2:00:36.680 out there, you know we need funding for the film. 2:00:37.040 --> 2:00:40.680 We have an Emmy Award winning director, uh, and so on. 2:00:40.760 --> 2:00:44.960 So that's great. Yeah, so look forward to seeing it. Yeah, 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:48.680 me too. Good luck. Thank you. Thanks for having me 2:00:49.920 --> 2:00:53.080 stay in touch with Karin. So you know, we can 2:00:53.120 --> 2:00:56.480 have like an update in a year or two. Sure. Yeah, absolutely, 2:00:56.680 --> 2:01:01.560 and then maybe, uh, if Steve decide to not claim 2:01:01.720 --> 2:01:06.120 artifacts from mother dig sides, you can go volunteer with 2:01:06.240 --> 2:01:13.720 Danny and satisfier, like an antiquities looter. We checked. It's like, 2:01:13.720 --> 2:01:16.600 you know, some people have like a devil and a angel. 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:19.280 I got like an antiquities looter on one shoulder and 2:01:19.440 --> 2:01:25.720 archeology and I got two dragons here gone and snakes, 2:01:26.520 --> 2:01:30.200 none of that. None of that. Well, thanks. Yeah, there's 2:01:30.240 --> 2:01:33.720 so much coming. I hope some people reach out and 2:01:33.760 --> 2:01:35.200 they might have a hot tip, because I could I 2:01:35.240 --> 2:01:38.760 could picture some dude out hunting antelope or desert big 2:01:38.760 --> 2:01:40.400 horns and he'd be like, you know, I've seen something 2:01:40.400 --> 2:01:42.880 like that one time. Well, we'll name the side after 2:01:43.440 --> 2:01:46.600 somebody if they come forward with something, an expedition. In fact, 2:01:46.640 --> 2:01:49.280 I've already promised that to one guy who you're sweeting 2:01:49.320 --> 2:01:52.160 the deal. You don't get to keep it, put on 2:01:52.200 --> 2:01:56.160 your mantle, but on the map it will be. Well. 2:01:56.240 --> 2:01:58.200 If they found it on private land, they do get 2:01:58.240 --> 2:02:00.960 to keep it, but we'd hope that if they realize 2:02:00.960 --> 2:02:03.960 what it is, that upon their death or sooner, they 2:02:03.960 --> 2:02:07.760 would agree to put it somewhere where it can be available, 2:02:07.840 --> 2:02:12.760 you know. So everybody keep your eyes peeled. Brass helmets, cannons, 2:02:13.320 --> 2:02:18.600 crosses with jewels, the jeweling crossed cross. If you find that, 2:02:18.760 --> 2:02:23.520 Danny Seymour as the person you talk to, not Indiana Jones. 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:42.760 Thanks everyone,