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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and, in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first like creating proven,

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel, from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

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Speaker 1: for every hunt. First Light, go farther, stay longer. All right, buddy,

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Speaker 1: we have we have such an interesting guest today that

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Speaker 1: we're gonna skip all the normal juvenile bullshit we talked

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Speaker 1: about on top, thank goodness. Yeah, and he's like, I'm out.

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Speaker 1: I'm believing now. This is my kind of podcast. Actually,

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Speaker 1: gonna skip all the juvenile all the things about a

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Speaker 1: guy that wrote in all this stuff about falling into

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Speaker 1: a pit toilet, what have you, tough meat, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That made waves, though, that pit toilet trying to get

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Speaker 1: punt gun shells manufactured. Like none of that, none of that.

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Speaker 1: The special guests I'm talking about is Denny J Seymour

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Speaker 1: Ph d who, Danny, I'm gonna tell you how I

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Speaker 1: know about you. I'M gonna tee it up in two ways.

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Speaker 1: All Right, uh, now and then it's something will happen

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Speaker 1: in the news and five, six, ten people will all

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Speaker 1: send me the same article. Okay, Um, the article about

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Speaker 1: the discovery of a battle site, of a fight, a

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Speaker 1: skirmish Um from the mid fif hundreds in southern Arizona

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Speaker 1: between the members of the Coronado Expedition in native tribes

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Speaker 1: in the area. Uh, a lot of my friends thought

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Speaker 1: that would tickle my fancy and I read the article

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Speaker 1: and I sent it to Krin and I said we

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Speaker 1: need to find this person. I thought you'd say no

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Speaker 1: for some reason. You know what? I thought you'd say

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Speaker 1: no because you're being so secrety in the article. That's

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Speaker 1: how we archaeologists are to protect the sites. But then,

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Speaker 1: you know, then we talked and it was good. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm still in the middle of research and normally I

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Speaker 1: don't divulge until I'm done. So normally it would be

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Speaker 1: five years into the project at least before I would

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Speaker 1: tell anyone other than the crew about what we found. When? Well,

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Speaker 1: in this case we did because we needed to raise

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Speaker 1: money for the documentary film and also research. So uh,

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Speaker 1: so we decided to go ahead and announce it sooner,

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Speaker 1: and so with that comes a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: awareness and people say, Oh, you need to make sure

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Speaker 1: people are not following you to the site. Well, so

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Speaker 1: far nobody's done that, but you've still kept it under wraps.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people don't know where it is yet, except

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Speaker 1: for the crew, and they're scorning the secrecy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: our guys will find out a challenge. You won't be

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Speaker 1: done recording this and they'll be they're digging around. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you come you have to help dig. So so

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Speaker 1: here's the way I want to set up. So someone

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Speaker 1: might be sitting there and we've teased this episode on

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Speaker 1: previous podcast episodes, but I'm gonna set up and then

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Speaker 1: you're gonna you can, you can take off and run on.

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Speaker 1: I set up to the best my ability. Um, why

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in the Coronado expedition, and it has to

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Speaker 1: do with and I want and I want you to

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Speaker 1: link this all together. I learned about the Coronado expedition

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Speaker 1: when I was reading about what I view to be

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Speaker 1: kind of like perhaps the craziest story in early American history,

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Speaker 1: which is the saga of Kabayza Day Vaca. Yep, Cabeza,

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Speaker 1: day Vaca. What year was at the net Navarrez expedition? Yeah, thirties, early.

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Speaker 1: This guy goes up a lot of hundreds of them, Spaniards,

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Speaker 1: going land in Florida and eventually getting a shipwreck get

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Speaker 1: killed off. Bad things happened to him, to the point

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Speaker 1: where three of these guys walk. Four of them walk

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Speaker 1: over the course of years, spending time in captivity with tribes,

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Speaker 1: spending time with tribes thinking that they're sort of like

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Speaker 1: healers and semi deities. They're eating milkshakes made out of

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Speaker 1: people's ashes and they walk all the way to Mexico.

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Speaker 1: It's like becomes slaves, but at one point Cabas Day

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Speaker 1: VOCA becomes the first European to lay eyes on a Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: probably around Austin or Dallas Texas. That's why that was

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Speaker 1: my intersection with him, because I was researching that subject.

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Speaker 1: That led me to some passages from the coronado expedition

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Speaker 1: where they make it up into Kansas Um and they're

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Speaker 1: describing not only the hunters they encounter and and out

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Speaker 1: of the Coronado expedition comes the only reference to something

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Speaker 1: that I've ever read in my entire life. They describe people,

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Speaker 1: they describe buffalo hunters who are skinning buffalo and sharping

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Speaker 1: their flint knives on their teeth. I've never read that anywhere,

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Speaker 1: and he describes the the down wind end of a lake,

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Speaker 1: the bank being formed by just bones of stuff that

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Speaker 1: would drown or whatever in the lake and wind up

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Speaker 1: being there or like various members of that expedition. And

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Speaker 1: that's really as much as I knew about the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know where they were, but I remember being

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Speaker 1: shocked by the fact the Coronado was on the American

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Speaker 1: Great Plains two and forty years prior to Lewis and Clark,

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Speaker 1: which should be the difference between us standing here now

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Speaker 1: and the French and Indian war. That really puts it

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Speaker 1: in perspective, doesn't and what in the hell right were

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Speaker 1: they doing up there exactly? So your job now is

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Speaker 1: to Um like what were they doing up there and,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind like a little bit, make the

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Speaker 1: connection between the how the conquissator rumor mill spins like

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Speaker 1: how cobs a vodka could starve his way across America.

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Speaker 1: And somehow this turns into like Oh yeah, but cities

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Speaker 1: of gold old if I had just gone another day's

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Speaker 1: journey to the blank. You know well. You know the

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Speaker 1: connection between Caves Devaka and the three people with him

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Speaker 1: and the Cornado expedition is that when they got back

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Speaker 1: they had this incredible story to tell and they had

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Speaker 1: heard of people to the north who had cotton and

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Speaker 1: multi story buildings and metal bells and so on, and

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Speaker 1: there were already rumors in European society and also in uh,

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Speaker 1: the Mexico area and so on, about seven cities and

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Speaker 1: this the, you know, the origin place of the Aztecs.

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Speaker 1: And then in UM UM in European society there was

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Speaker 1: there were stories about places of riches and so on.

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Speaker 1: CABSIVACA never actually said there was gold or didn't expect

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Speaker 1: that there would be uh, but there were rumors in

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Speaker 1: you know how rumors developed, because basically they had found gold,

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Speaker 1: lots of it, in the Inca area and in the

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Speaker 1: Aztec area, in central Mexico and in Peru, and so

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Speaker 1: they kind of expected that there would be riches elsewhere

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Speaker 1: on the continent. So it really wasn't that unexpected that

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Speaker 1: that kind of imagination would start going wild and that

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Speaker 1: rumors would start. Now a stave on the black more

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Speaker 1: slave at the time was with Kabasi DEVACA and he

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Speaker 1: was the one that was selected. Apparently he was freed

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Speaker 1: before going uh. He was selected to lead FRA Marcos

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Speaker 1: Deniz in thirty nine north to do a reconnaissance and

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Speaker 1: uh Coronado himself, escus de Coronado, was responsible for outfitting him,

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Speaker 1: and the idea is he was supposed to go ahead

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Speaker 1: and see what was up there and see if the

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Speaker 1: rumors about gold in the seven cities of ce blow

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Speaker 1: and so on, we're true. Can you tell you what

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Speaker 1: that what that seven cities of Sebla? You encountered that?

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, there were rumors of seven

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Speaker 1: cities and of course seven is important in the Christian

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Speaker 1: religion for a variety of reasons. Um and Um, the

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Speaker 1: Aztecs and others had stories from ancient times about having

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Speaker 1: originated from the North uh, and so everybody had a

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Speaker 1: little piece of, you know, the rumor, the story that

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Speaker 1: the imaginative myth to put together. And so basically it

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Speaker 1: was connected to Sibila or Zuni. Uh. They first went

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Speaker 1: to Howieku, which is among the Zuni Pueblos uh, and

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Speaker 1: that's where they thought it was. So that was the focus.

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Speaker 1: So they got there and realized there was no gold

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Speaker 1: and then they kept pursuing it elsewhere. They were looking

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Speaker 1: for go all they were looking for other things as well,

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Speaker 1: and they well, they say looking for I mean they

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Speaker 1: were fixing to go take it. Yes, they were just

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Speaker 1: like in central Mexico and in UH, South America. But see,

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Speaker 1: they weren't just looking for gold either. So they were

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Speaker 1: looking for high enough and native population, one so that

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Speaker 1: they could convert them. That's what the priests wanted to

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Speaker 1: do and that was kind of one of the things

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Speaker 1: that they were charged with. But they wanted enough, high

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Speaker 1: enough native population that they could exploit them for tribute.

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Speaker 1: That's how they were going to get rich and they

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Speaker 1: were going to set up in Comiendas, and that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that the expedition was considered a failure,

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Speaker 1: because there weren't enough high enough densities of natives for

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Speaker 1: all of the high ranking Spaniards who went along to

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Speaker 1: have an in Comienda have um a large enough area

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Speaker 1: with high enough native population that could support them with

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Speaker 1: tribute payments and so on. A another reason, apparently, is

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Speaker 1: they thought that this was connected, that are part of

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Speaker 1: the world was connected to Asians, so they hoped to

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Speaker 1: find a route through so they could establish markets there.

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Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that people have been focusing

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Speaker 1: for ages on the gold aspect. So historians more recently

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Speaker 1: have been saying, well, it's not really the gold they

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Speaker 1: were after, but in fact our main site, the first

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Speaker 1: site we found, is at a major gold source. So

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Speaker 1: the people who got left behind what the first site

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Speaker 1: we found is not only a battle site but it

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Speaker 1: was a it's called the villa of San Hieronimo and

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Speaker 1: it was the third rendition of that where they left

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Speaker 1: some of the Spaniards behind as a supply base, but

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Speaker 1: also a villa in Spanish is town, and so basically

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Speaker 1: it was the formation of a town and interestingly it's

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Speaker 1: at a gold source. It's at one of the best

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Speaker 1: gold sources in the area. Can you remember to talk

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Speaker 1: a bit about how sadistic the people that ran that? Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll remember. If I don't remember, remind me. But here's

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Speaker 1: one more thing about the gold. It turns out that

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Speaker 1: we have the satellite of other Coronado artifacts around. They're

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Speaker 1: not really sites, they're isolated things so far, but two

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Speaker 1: of them are at other locations where gold was so

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Speaker 1: the people that got left behind me have actually got

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Speaker 1: more gold out of this area than the people who

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Speaker 1: went forward, and they were resentful that they got left

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Speaker 1: behind because they wanted to go and and find all

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Speaker 1: these riches and have all this success and be part

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Speaker 1: of the exploration, the adventure and so on. But they

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Speaker 1: were working gold deposits. So there was also a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff in their correspondence they called they called buffalo

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Speaker 1: cattle or Bison. They call them cattle, and they would

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Speaker 1: throw out that there could be they would throw out

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Speaker 1: that that could be like an industry of exploitation. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Juanharamo in his account mentioned that and uh talked about

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Speaker 1: how you could get back to, uh, new Spain, back

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Speaker 1: and forth via a shorter route to exploit that as

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Speaker 1: a resource, and that is what he thought was the

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Speaker 1: most valuable resource in the area, other than all of

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Speaker 1: these other things that I just mentioned. Yeah, they just

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Speaker 1: encountered staggering numbers of them. Yes, so how many? How many?

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Speaker 1: Would it makes sense, before we get too far into

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Speaker 1: the actual coronado expedition, just to back up, just to

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Speaker 1: talk about like the Vera Cruz and like Spanish settlements

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Speaker 1: down in Mexico and just really established that before we

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Speaker 1: move north. Uh. Yeah, you mentioned that they had been

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Speaker 1: striking it rich here and there. Oh, sure. So, of course,

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Speaker 1: when Cortez came into the Mexico area, he actually established

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Speaker 1: downsite or via at Vera Cruz and use that as

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Speaker 1: a base. And what he did, and sorry, what year

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Speaker 1: was that? That was fifteen. I can't remember exactly. Fifteen,

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, something like that. Um. So, he established a

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Speaker 1: town site and established a town council and everything. And

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Speaker 1: the reason he did that, did that was that he

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Speaker 1: could separate himself from his sponsor in Cuba, and that way, uh,

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Speaker 1: they voted him as the leader and so on, and he,

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Speaker 1: as a result, was able to uh, correspond directly with

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Speaker 1: the king, and so that's how he was able. I

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Speaker 1: mean it was a political move which was really kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting exactly. and Uh so it worked out really

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Speaker 1: well for him and it didn't work out well for

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Speaker 1: the natives that were in the area. But bottom line

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Speaker 1: is that was like incredibly rich. And you know, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned before about people being where did this rumor come

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Speaker 1: from and so on. Well, think about it. The first

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Speaker 1: encounters in the central Mexico area, it was so rich.

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Speaker 1: People made I mean they were like billionaires all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, overnight, you know, I mean within a few

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Speaker 1: months just from ransack and the gold out of I

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Speaker 1: mean it was just incredible. And also in Peru, the

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Speaker 1: Incan Empire, and they were like taking finished gold, though

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Speaker 1: they weren't taken. I mean I'm sure they probably got

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Speaker 1: into mining, but they were like seizing, like taking gold

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Speaker 1: that had already been used to form form into totems

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Speaker 1: and monetary units. And well, that is true. So, first

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Speaker 1: of all, gold wasn't the only thing they got. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of silver and other other items of value.

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Speaker 1: But with respect to the gold, yeah, they had idols.

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Speaker 1: They had religious idol. It shouldn't use the word idols

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Speaker 1: because that's a Catholic way of looking at uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: native uh sacred objects and so on. But basically they

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Speaker 1: took there were rooms that were plastered with gold and

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Speaker 1: they pulled that off. They took Um images uh that

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Speaker 1: we would call saints today in the Catholic religion. They

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Speaker 1: took them out of the rooms and pyramids and so

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Speaker 1: on and melted those down. But they also had people

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Speaker 1: uh mining, and you know, even Columbus did that, uh,

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Speaker 1: and we see images of Um, you know, the miners

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Speaker 1: working and so on and uh, there's actually one image

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Speaker 1: that was created. That shows UH and uprising by natives

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Speaker 1: pouring liquid gold down to Spaniards through, I mean because

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Speaker 1: and and that's that's brutal. But the fact is is

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Speaker 1: they were chopping off people's hands and noses down there,

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Speaker 1: uh for not either not producing enough gold or for

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Speaker 1: rising up, or for anything that they thought of as minor.

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Speaker 1: The amount of body like when you get into the

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Speaker 1: corn atole that tradition, the amount of body parts getting

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Speaker 1: removed from people as punishments is just staggering. It is,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And normally I thought that most of

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Speaker 1: that happened down south, meaning south of the border, the

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Speaker 1: current border, uh, when via Um, you know, when Cortes

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Speaker 1: and Columbus and so on, we're doing their thing, and

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Speaker 1: also in South America. But it's amazing how much of

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Speaker 1: it occurred up here. And the thing that surprised me

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Speaker 1: is that on our site it actually occurred. Now that

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Speaker 1: we know where this Um site is. That's mentioned in

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Speaker 1: the documents and we know where it is. It's amongst

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Speaker 1: the Atham uh formerly known some of some authom are

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Speaker 1: called Pema. They were all called Pima or various other

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Speaker 1: names in the past. But Um, I work with people

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Speaker 1: there near to son at San Javier, the San Javier

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Speaker 1: district of the tone of octom nation, and they are

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Speaker 1: the direct descendants of the people who met Coronado at

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Speaker 1: this site. And when I told them about this, it

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Speaker 1: was really difficult for me to tell them, because how

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Speaker 1: do you tell somebody that their ancestors were treated so poorly?

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Speaker 1: But it's also, Um, uh, empowering in a way, uh,

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Speaker 1: because it's a way for them to understand some of

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Speaker 1: the trauma that they now experience and where that comes from.

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Speaker 1: It has much greater depth than even they thought, perhaps

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Speaker 1: because nobody thought that Coronado actually had much of an

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Speaker 1: encounter with the autum in southern Arizona. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: a backwater area that you don't read about it if

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Speaker 1: you read coronado documents. Basically they just passed through their stories.

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Speaker 1: They always pretty much go up to sea blowers any

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Speaker 1: end and skipped this whole area. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that the area where this site is, this first site

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Speaker 1: I found, is one of the most important coronado sites and,

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Speaker 1: like I said, it's called the Vo San Hieronimo and

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Speaker 1: the atom. We're able to successfully repel the Spaniards. So

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Speaker 1: it really is the first successful native American rebellion in

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Speaker 1: the continental us, because they didn't come back. The Spaniards

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Speaker 1: didn't come back for a hundred and forty years. That

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Speaker 1: was enough time. Do you thought you really whooped them?

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Speaker 1: For sure. I mean think about it. They came and

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Speaker 1: we ran them off and now they're gone. Well, and

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Speaker 1: it was only twelve years for the Pueblo revolt, which

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Speaker 1: is considered the most successful one up to this point. So,

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Speaker 1: but the amount of pride, like the Atham are considered

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Speaker 1: later in time, they're discussed as being peaceful and docile,

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Speaker 1: and I've always asked my auth and friends, do you

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Speaker 1: think that's because a colonialism? The answers I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: this shows that. My other research that shows that they

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Speaker 1: were the best warriors in the sixteen, eighties and nineties

301
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Speaker 1: and so on, shows that the extended even deeper in time.

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Speaker 1: So they take incredible pride in knowing that their ancestors

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Speaker 1: were phenomenal warriors, the best warriors in the region. They

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Speaker 1: were respected by they were feared by the Apache in

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Speaker 1: the sixteen, eighties and nineties. So, uh, the thing I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize until I was reading a book about Coronado recently. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've never quite put it together that these these people

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Speaker 1: that we call concussed doors were kind of like semi freelance,

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Speaker 1: like swashbucklers or pirates, right, like they had they reported

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Speaker 1: to the king, but they had personal stuff to gain.

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Speaker 1: It's not like, if you imagine the US military, right

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Speaker 1: goes and does some action, it's entirely in service of

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Speaker 1: the government. Meaning if you go and sack Saddam Hussein's palace,

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Speaker 1: you don't keep half the ship and send half of

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Speaker 1: it right, you don't get okay, you guys will divvy

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Speaker 1: it up. You guys keep half, the government keeps half. Well,

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Speaker 1: the Spanish, Spanish government didn't keep half, they kept a fifth.

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Speaker 1: That's so. But these guys were like highly incentivized. Right,

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Speaker 1: they were, but understand that. First of all, they were

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Speaker 1: incentivized and that's one reason you have the muster rule

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Speaker 1: at the beginning, and that's one reason why, uh, they

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Speaker 1: put so many horses, livestock, armor, weapons, people into it.

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Speaker 1: Because what is that? What is sorry, what is that

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Speaker 1: word that you use? Muster roll. So basically it's everybody

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Speaker 1: lined up and said what they what they were going

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Speaker 1: to bring along. Okay, and and that got recorded by

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Speaker 1: a scribe and the idea was that they were buying

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Speaker 1: in in this sense. So, in other words, if they're investing,

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Speaker 1: they're investing. So if they had another uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: Aztec or Incan type discovery, they would have uh partition

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Speaker 1: the find the wealth based on what they contributed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so it really was an investment. Yeah, like Hey, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna ride up north see what we can sack and

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Speaker 1: locate and find an exploit and develop. And who wants

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Speaker 1: in and what are you willing to kick in on

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Speaker 1: putting this trip together? Well, that's a somewhat irreverend, reverend,

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00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: crude way to say it, but that's really what it

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Speaker 1: came down to. But I don't know, they draped it

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Speaker 1: in okay, okay, I don't want to go down the

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Speaker 1: revisionist path, right, okay, I'm interested in context. They draped

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Speaker 1: it in God and country. However, I think it was

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00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: a much thinner with the concussed the doors, and you

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Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm if you don't agree with this.

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Speaker 1: I think the CONQUISS the doors there was a much

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Speaker 1: thinner veneer than there were with other godden country actions

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Speaker 1: that happened on the continent years later, like, uh, right now,

347
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Speaker 1: with our oil and gas pursuits in other countries. I mean, yeah,

348
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Speaker 1: I think a thinner veneer. Yeah. So, so the thing

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Speaker 1: is keep in mind that we can look at it

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Speaker 1: that way because we have years between us and them, right.

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Speaker 1: But understand, and this is really important to understand, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not being an apologist by any means, but they

353
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Speaker 1: were following the rules. Okay, so they were charged by

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Speaker 1: the Viceroy and the King to go and convert people.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to convert all the natives Catholicism, and also

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Speaker 1: the idea was to expand the territory that was under

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Speaker 1: the king's charge. Okay, so the expand the Spanish empire.

358
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Speaker 1: So those really were their goals. And in the meantime,

359
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Speaker 1: since it was privately funded, they wanted to get returned

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Speaker 1: for their investment and then, of course, the crown would

361
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Speaker 1: get a percentage of that. But they were following the

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Speaker 1: rules the whole time. Okay, so part of the rules.

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Speaker 1: and well, I mean, but then allow them got put

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Speaker 1: on trial later, they did, but only one got actually convicted. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the reason he did is because he didn't follow

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Speaker 1: the rules. So when they went into a native village,

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Speaker 1: they read the requirement, the request or whatever, and it

368
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Speaker 1: had a specific set of statements, that part of which

369
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: are and I can read a little bit if you want,

370
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: but basically, uh, you need to acquiesce to our desires,

371
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Speaker 1: you have to accept our king, our pope and our

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Speaker 1: way of life and you have to do what we

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Speaker 1: want you to do, including giving tribute, and if you don't,

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Speaker 1: then we're gonna come and take your wives and daughters,

375
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Speaker 1: we're gonna kill you, we're gonna Enslave you and it's

376
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: all your fault. That's basically what it says. And so,

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Speaker 1: first of all, they probably didn't fully understand. But but

378
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Speaker 1: you forgot the promise, Um, your problems with your enemies

379
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: will be over. Yeah, yes, exactly, so they so what

380
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: they promised was that they would be converted, they would

381
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Speaker 1: be protected against their enemies and so on. UH, and

382
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting something there too, but bottom line is, uh,

383
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: the trade off wasn't uh favorable at all to the natives.

384
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: They were doing fine how they were, but the Spaniards

385
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: wanted to slip themselves in this higher level echelon, just

386
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: like pretty much did, and in Mexico, for example. Um,

387
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: and they took Montezuma captive and kind of used him

388
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: to rule the people for a while and to control

389
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: it so they could get as much as they want

390
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: and basically as a hostage. And they tried that in

391
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: the Sibyl area and it didn't work. For actually in

392
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: the in the Albuquerque area, and it didn't work too well. Uh,

393
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: but they they felt that they were following the rules.

394
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Speaker 1: And the one guy that got convicted, Um, he didn't

395
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Speaker 1: follow the rules. Like, for example, uh, he suggested that

396
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: the Pueblo they had a siege and they suggest he

397
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 1: suggested that the people surrender and he promised them, uh,

398
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: favorable passage, in other words, he wasn't gonna Kill Them All. Well,

399
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: he ended up burning something like a hundred of them

400
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: at the stake and stabbing lancing. He made them drive

401
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: the I think he made them place their own stakes.

402
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't remember for sure. Them Alive. Yeah, I mean

403
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty nasty, but that's why he was that's

404
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: why he was the only one that got Um, basically jailed.

405
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: In essence, it really wasn't jail because he got a

406
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: pretty light sentence. Yeah, but how many people are? How

407
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: many people are on this how many people are on

408
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: this group of folks that end up like like the

409
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: group that ends up winding up in Kansas and you know, yeah,

410
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: so through Texas and Kansas. Like what kind of what

411
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: kind of like what's this look like coming across the landscape? Well,

412
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: that's the really interesting thing about this. The latest numbers

413
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: historians have come up with is about people, maybe three hundred,

414
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: fifty or four hundred Europe Spaniards, you know, Europeans, uh,

415
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: and then their support people, slaves and domestic servants, and

416
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: then hundred or so, uh, native Mexican Indians. Okay, Native Mexicans.

417
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: So Uh. So basically two thousand hundred people going across

418
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: the landscape, which is huge. I mean it's just but

419
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: what they think? Um, it looks like in the documents that,

420
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: if you read them a certain way and very carefully,

421
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: it actually says that first they sent the advance guard

422
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: ahead with Coronado. That included, I think it was eighty

423
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: or so Spaniards and their support people, including some native Mexicans,

424
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 1: and then the second group came two weeks later so

425
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: that water and pasture wouldn't run out, and so they

426
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't overrun native communities, but they also had a bunch

427
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: of captains and it looks like they were broken up

428
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: into smaller groups. And we have now. Two years ago

429
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: there were no core no coronado sites between Sinaloa, Kul

430
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: con and so on and UH Sibila. Now I have

431
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: four in southern Arizona and you just saw US real

432
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: quick where those the two sizes that you just mentioned

433
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: are in like in current day town terms in the US.

434
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: So one of them is kind of buy no gallus

435
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: south of Tucson, Arizona, on the Santa Cruz River, which

436
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: is west of where everybody thinks the route came up.

437
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, so let me go over there first and

438
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: then remind me. So everybody, for years, most like of

439
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 1: historians and archaeologists, have thought that Coronado came up the

440
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: Sonora River in Mexico and then up the San Pedro,

441
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: down the San Pedro River in southern Arizona before turning northeast.

442
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: Imagine that route being kind of the center of a

443
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: page or something. Go to the left or to the West. Um,

444
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: and the first site we found is on the Santa

445
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: Cruz River to the West. The second site not the

446
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: second one we found, but the second on the trail

447
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 1: is on an intervening drainage. So we have two sites

448
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: now to the west of that center line of the

449
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: page where the San Pedro and Sonora rivers are. And

450
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: then you go further east southeast, actually still all in

451
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: the United States, still in Arizona, and there's two sites

452
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: in the San Bernardino Valley, which is the farthest, farthest

453
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: Um southeast you can go and still be in Arizona.

454
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: So my job is to try to figure out how

455
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: do those fit? And right now we're at the point

456
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: of Um intersecting with the San Pedro River. So the

457
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: question is, did they go north, did they go south

458
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: or did they go east? And I don't know yet.

459
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: I'm in the process of figuring that out. That's the

460
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: next discovery we're going to make. But now we have

461
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: four sites uh in an area where we had none

462
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: uh at the beginning of covid basically, how far, how

463
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: far is? How far apart are those? Those, the first

464
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: one and the ones way to the east, as the

465
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: crow flies, are about a hundred miles apart. But they

466
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: went like you know, zig zag and stuff, so would

467
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: be you know many days in between. So Um, you

468
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: know one thing we forgot to talk about when we

469
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: were talking about many people. Can you describe the amount

470
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: of livestock these guys carried with them? Yes, exactly. So

471
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: there were something like horses, they had cattle, they had pigs,

472
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: they had sheep. So thousands ahead of livestock. So honestly

473
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: they just have to look insane to people, especially when

474
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: they get to the nomadic hunters and all of a

475
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: sudden who you know, had never encountered us, to all

476
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: a sudden look and be like what do we have here? Well, UH,

477
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: a friend of mine has commented that. You know, it

478
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: would be like during the civil war. You'd have natives

479
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: sitting on these UH hillsides watching this, you know, parade

480
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: go by, but you know it was broken probably into

481
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: distinct groups moving across the landscape. But one of the

482
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: ways that I've been able to find some of these

483
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: sites is think about it, and people have thought about

484
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: this before, but you gotta have a reliable source, a huge,

485
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: reliable source of water and pasture right because if you

486
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: don't stop and allow your livestock to eat every couple

487
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: of days of arding to ranchers they're gonna fall over.

488
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: You just can't go that fart now. They did. They

489
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: did mistreat their animals, for sure. Many of them died

490
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: along the way, but bottom line is the kinds of

491
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: water sources that I need to look for that they

492
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: would have need to have found to survive are in

493
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: limited areas, although there's enough of them that it could

494
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: take me years to find more sites. I mean it's

495
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: it's pretty phenomenal that we have four now and we're

496
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: on the verge of finding the fifth. But do people still,

497
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: do your peers still think you're barking up the round tree? Um?

498
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: Everybody who is a professional archaeologist and most historians agree

499
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: that I have Coronado. There's no question. We have more

500
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads, which your diagnostic a coronado and go out

501
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: long before the next European expedition or or big group

502
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: of people is in the area. We have more of

503
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: those than any other Coronado site known. Okay, so the

504
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads across the bow eraheads, we have seventy two

505
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: or something now. So that's the end to ssputable. We

506
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: have other coronado artifacts, including the cannon. So we have

507
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: coronado there's no question what they're questioning without actually seeing

508
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: the data. Is kind of the problem I have with

509
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: it is that, uh, they're questioning how I'm putting the

510
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: route together. And as an archaeologist, I okay, I have

511
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: four sights, so you connect the dots and if I

512
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: can connect those with a trail, well that's one trail.

513
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: But what they don't understand is I am trying to

514
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: consider every option available as to how the route might

515
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: have gone. So I'm backing up with the documentary record

516
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: and geography and stuff and I'm plotting it out and

517
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is every single option of

518
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: the way they could go, and then I'm checking those

519
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: areas on the ground. And so basically right now, like

520
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: I said, I'm at the San Pedro. Did they go north,

521
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: did they go south through did they go east? And

522
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer yet, but if they go north,

523
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: that means that we have two trails because it doesn't

524
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: connect with the ones way far southeast in the San

525
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: Bernardino Valley. See, isn't that kind of cool? If they

526
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: don't go north, then that means they probably went east

527
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: and then southeast and it connects to this zigzag trail

528
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: that just goes all over and then goes up, and

529
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: so that's the verse. That's the point I'm at now.

530
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: So the next not the next site. If I find

531
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: the next site where I think it is, then it

532
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: won't answer that question. I'm gonna have to find one

533
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: more to figure out whether they went north, because we

534
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: know where the water was on the surface and that's

535
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: likely where they can't. I wanna talk about like how

536
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: you find this stuff and what you're looking for and

537
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: sort of like what's there, and I have a million

538
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: questions about that. But let's do a quick feel mine,

539
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: a quick walk through on what happened to the expedition.

540
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: Like they they get up to the seven cities of old,

541
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: which are seven cities of that's why it winds up

542
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: being what like six cities of not gold, and then

543
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: they get let on this wild goose chase. Yes, well,

544
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: one tactic was for natives to try to push the

545
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: people onto the next place. So when Europeans first to write,

546
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: even when combasative Acca went through native settlements when they

547
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: were walking back to new Spain from Florida, they were

548
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: welcomed at first. There's this continent wide actually it's universal

549
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: throughout the world hospitality. When somebody new comes, if they're

550
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: not war alike, if they're not, you know, hostile, you

551
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: welcome them in, you give them food, you celebrate with

552
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: them and so on, and then you send them on

553
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: your way. And what we know from combasative ACCA is

554
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: that hundreds of people, sometimes from those villages, would go

555
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: along with them until they got to the edge of

556
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: their territor Tory and then they'd stop and then Siva

557
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: could go on from there, and that actually happened on

558
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: the Coronado expedition as well. As some of these people

559
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: would serve as porters, some would just escort them and

560
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: so on. Do you think those folks were getting paid

561
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: or I mean, like, why were they going along? In

562
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: some cases they were kidnapped by the Spaniards. In some

563
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: cases they went along because when when you wanted to

564
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: go a long distance, it helped to go in a

565
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: large group so you didn't get attacked. Uh. And also, uh,

566
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: some of them, like the native Mexicans, were in some

567
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: cases paid. Um. That is kind of an interesting thing,

568
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: because some of them went along because they the native Mexicans,

569
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: because their tribute that they owed the Spaniards was reduced

570
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: or eliminated. That was kind of a payment to the community.

571
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: Some of them were paid exactly Um, some of them

572
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: were paid cash, some of them uh scholars think that

573
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: they were paid in the sense of that they got

574
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: to take slaves or captives amongst the groups that they

575
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: subdued and then they would take those as captive and

576
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: that would raise their status within their communities, one because

577
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: they had taken them in warfare and secondly because, uh

578
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: then they would uh sacrifice them ceremonially and that was

579
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: how they gained status and that was also part of

580
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: their their culture and so on. So there's a whole

581
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: range of reasons why native Mexicans went along, but it

582
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: seems that when you get up here into southern Arizona,

583
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: uh what like, there were two hundred principles that went

584
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: along with Marcos Diniza, for for example, in sixty nine,

585
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: and they wanted to go to help them carry stuff,

586
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: but also they wanted to go up to see Siebla,

587
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: to see Zooni, and they pretty much wanted to go

588
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: with a group. It would be an exciting thing. I

589
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of why one of the reasons all

590
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: these Spaniards went to. I mean, think about it. It's

591
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: an adventure, you know. Uh, it would have been an adventure.

592
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: And maybe in the first two hundred miles. And then

593
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: can you imagine the drudgery of just knowing that you

594
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: can't turn back on your own because it's too dangerous? Uh,

595
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: and you get lost, but you have to keep going forward.

596
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: Can you imagine waking up every morning after sleeping on

597
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: a rock on your back all night and realizing, what

598
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: did I get myself into? You know? Yeah, and the

599
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: next thing you know you're in Kansas. Oh, I know, incredible,

600
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 1: fighting the whole way. And yes, you and I think

601
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: and have these thoughts, but I don't know if they

602
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: had those thoughts because maybe they slept on a rock,

603
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: you know, every day of their lives, just like we do.

604
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: Have people dieing left and right to you know, right,

605
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 1: but that was the norm? Right? Well, but not really.

606
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: I mean for some, yes, no question, for the domestic

607
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: servants and slaves and, you know, people like that, for sure,

608
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: but some of these were noblemen. There were some really

609
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: high status people there, and those are the ones that

610
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: mostly went with coronado in his advanced guard. But these were,

611
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: you know people who wore silks most of the time

612
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: and shoes with no souls and stuff. In fact, I

613
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: disagree with one of the historians who claims that they

614
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: would have worn silks on the whole trip. And it's

615
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: like I've walked through that. You can see scratches on

616
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: my arms right now because I was just out earlier

617
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: this week. I mean, I don't wear silks and my

618
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: clothes get ruined, you know. So uh, and I have

619
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: to wear boots with um souls on them so that

620
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: thorns don't go through them and stuff. So they were uh,

621
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: they had a very rude awakening, I think. And think

622
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: about it. They went through in the summer. So they

623
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: went through southern Arizona in June. UH, Marcus Niza was may,

624
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: but June is the hottest month and there's no rain.

625
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: And I went out to the one of the sites,

626
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: the latest one I found in June, about the time

627
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: they would have been there, and it was one of

628
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: the coolest days and I was just about sick from

629
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: the humidity in the heat because I was trying to

630
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: find more evidence of our side. So you know, it's

631
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: but everybody says that it would have been cooler than

632
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: and wetter than and I'm going to research that more

633
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: because I'm not convinced of that. I don't know. We'll

634
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: see um, but you gotta do when you're researching it.

635
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: You gotta put one of them brass helmets on. There

636
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: you go. It's like instant tinfoil. Is that what you suggesting?

637
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: So talking about the wild goose chase, though, because this

638
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: is an interesting story, like it kind of involves like

639
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: a guy says, Um, oh, I saw a bracelet made

640
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,479
Speaker 1: of gold, he had it, and so they take those

641
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: guys captive and like where is the bracelet, and then

642
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: one of them tells them some crazy ass story about

643
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: how they should go to Kansas. That part of the

644
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: story really brings home to me how greedy they were

645
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: at that point, how desperate they were. I mean they

646
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: hear the story about a gold bracelet that was probably hopper,

647
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 1: who knows what it was, and something else I can't remember,

648
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: and they like pursue this with such dog in this

649
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: it's like they take the guys and put them in

650
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: chains and callers and keep them kidnapped for six months

651
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: in there, you know during the winter, and then end

652
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: up garreting one guy and I mean it just it's

653
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: phenomenal what they do over a stinking little bracelet. But

654
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: they thought that was the key to where they were

655
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: explained garretted, you know, like in a godfather too, I

656
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: think it is, when they killed the guy by just

657
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: putting a cable around his neck and then you twist

658
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: it with a stick or something. So this dude, this

659
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: dude is like, Oh man, the really good stuff is

660
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: like up and you know, out in the Buffalo Land,

661
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: and he they get there and he's like, oh no, no,

662
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: I think about it. It's a little more over that

663
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: way right. Well, eventually they just get fed up, like

664
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: this guy's full of ship and they had some disagreements

665
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: amongst their gods. But here's the fun thing. Some scholars

666
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: about three and maybe growing, think that one of their

667
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: guides was actually trying to take them over to the

668
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: Mississippian area where there are large canoes, large fish, or

669
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: at least alligators, and uh, copper artifacts and other things.

670
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: And so it makes sense. Now. Just here's another aside. UH,

671
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: there's a Texas site known coronado side. It's been known

672
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: for some time, the Jimmy own site. Uh, it looks

673
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: like we may have one on either side of that now,

674
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 1: so we have a partial trail there. That still needs

675
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: to be proved up, which I will be doing in

676
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: the next couple of years, but that's very exciting because

677
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: the route trajectory of those if they turn out, they

678
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: have artifacts that seem to be Coronado, but we just

679
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 1: need to prove it up for sure. I'm pretty cautious

680
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: about these types of things. But anyway, if this is

681
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: the case, it does look like what they did was

682
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: really went in a secuity, circuitous type route, not only

683
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: probably to get them lost but also to starve them

684
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 1: out there, but also it looks like maybe he was

685
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: trying to take them to the Mississippian area where the

686
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: descriptions actually matched. They don't for the Caverra, purposely to

687
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 1: get them lost and to starve them. The guides were

688
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: doing this too. Just messies like there's an end of

689
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: the guy they garritted, the guy they killed for misinformation,

690
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: is like celebrated right by some of the tribes because

691
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: he got him out. He was it's, you know, the

692
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: like a contemporary interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong, is

693
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: that he was like going to lead him out out

694
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: of the Buffalo planes and lead him out into the

695
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: state planes of Texas and over they at all they

696
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: die out there. Well, and he actually kind of said,

697
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: according to the Spanish, the Spaniards and the one document,

698
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: is that he told the people at Calvera that if

699
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: you don't feed them and their horses, they're already weak

700
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: and you can kill them. And you know, and apparently

701
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: admitted that he was going around about way to get

702
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: lost and stuff. Who knows what's going on because, bottom line,

703
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 1: there was this rivalry between the guides and we'll never

704
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: know for sure, but I will say that one of

705
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: our sites, two of our sites, in the San Bernardino

706
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: Valley that is such a remote area it's like a moonscape. Okay,

707
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: it's got volcanic rock Malpais, UH, just out in the

708
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: middle of stink and nowhere, and the camp site that

709
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: we have it actually has some incredible rock art, Coronado

710
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: Rock Art. It's very cool, uh, anyway, and and two

711
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: Coronado artifacts and some clearings. So we don't know how

712
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: big a group was there, but it's the first camp,

713
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: actual camp site. The other one's a town site, right,

714
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: and and the other ones are artifacts that we haven't

715
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: identified clearings yet and stuff, but this one has clearings,

716
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: artifacts and rock art and it is in such a

717
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: remote area. One of the guys on the Rock Art

718
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: is reaching out in front of him and it almost

719
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: looks like he's saying to people who might try this route,

720
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: go west to get out of here, this is not

721
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: a good area. I don't know. That's my interpretation. You

722
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: can interpret it, interpret rock art a number of ways,

723
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 1: but you mean rock you mean you've found rock art

724
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: that was made by people who were accompanying the expedition. Yes, so,

725
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: no one knew this was there till now. Well, Um,

726
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: the rancher knew it was there. And basically what we

727
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: have is a volcanic rock that is weathered and has

728
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: figures pecked into it and one is wearing a hat,

729
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: one is wearing a helmet like hat and I think

730
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 1: it is a domed hat rather than I'm looking at it. Yeah,

731
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: and Um, if you look real carefully, I actually do

732
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: a presentation on this, it looks like the guy has

733
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: a beard. He has a gown on that was typical

734
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: of the time. They have pointy shoes on, which was

735
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: typical of the time. UH, they have a collar like

736
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: the the UH callers they used to wear at the time,

737
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: and something else. I forget what up, but anyway, looking

738
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: at it right now, but it's it's we have coronado

739
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: artifacts with it, so you know it. It's pretty darn

740
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: good evidence. Uh. I mean, like one of my volunteers said,

741
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: I said, well, it looks like it is, and he goes, well,

742
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: the rock says it is. Uh. So I want to

743
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: I want to get into how you like ever begin

744
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: to find this stuff. But well, that and too, I

745
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: think what like your work, where the personal passion for

746
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: this project comes from. But let's wrap up. I want to.

747
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: I want to first wrap up the expedition. Okay, they

748
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: go on the wild goose chase, get up into Kansas.

749
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: A subset of them got up into canvas right. So

750
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: in Texas they realize that there's no way that we

751
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: can support this. Many people out here on the plains

752
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: were about ready to starve. There's not enough water. So

753
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: they send most of the people back to Albuquerque to

754
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: reinhabit Albuquerque again, Albuquerque, Bernal Leo area, for another winter,

755
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: and a subset goes north to Kansas. Uh, they stay there.

756
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, twenty five days or something

757
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: like that before they come back, after realizing there was

758
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: nothing up there that they were interested in. Uh. And

759
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: then they all go back to the Albuquerque area spend

760
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: the winter there. Before they leave, Cornado gets kicked in

761
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: the head by a horse. Yes, it starts acting peculiar. Well,

762
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: I think that was the second concussion he got. The

763
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: first one was uh CIBLA, where they threw a slab

764
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: down and he was in full armor, including a helmet,

765
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: but it hit him on the head and I think

766
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: even if you had a helmet on, that's going to

767
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: cause a pretty big problem. So your second concussion is

768
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: always the worst. So I think he was in really

769
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: bad shape. In fact, when the settlement that I found

770
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: got attacked, someone was heading south to return to new

771
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 1: Spain and then ultimately Spain. I saw that the place

772
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: had been attacked, went all the way back to the

773
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: Albuquerque area and didn't tell Coronado right away because of

774
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: his concussions. So it must have been really bad. So Uh.

775
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: So I think he basically Um was. I think he

776
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: was pretty bad off, but I think that the fact

777
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: that they had not found anything, the fact that he

778
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: had a second concussion the fact that the side I found,

779
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: Santanimo three, was attacked and destroyed. Uh, and Um, what

780
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: was the other thing I was gonna say? I forget.

781
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 1: But anyway, all of those factors together, I think we're

782
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: that were the reasons that they ended an expedition. Now, Castinato,

783
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: one of the chroniclers for the expedition, who wrote some

784
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: twenty years later, he said that he missed his wife

785
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: and also, you know, his estates and so on. Well,

786
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: part of the thing he was governor of Nueva Glossia,

787
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: and so he had responsibilities down there and the MISHTM

788
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 1: war had already started. So like that area was an unrest.

789
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: He had responsibilities for that and here he was way

790
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: up there and nothing was turning out like it should.

791
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: So he was like miles away and nothing was happening. UH,

792
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: they weren't getting wealthy, people were starting to cause problems,

793
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: people were dying. Uh, you know, things just bad energy,

794
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: and I got like got like mutinous, and they come

795
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: home penniless. Then they all get the finger point and

796
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: exactly fighting. And it wasn't. So it wasn't like sacking,

797
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: it wasn't like getting Montezooma's gold at all. So, out

798
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: of those hundred, how many do you think ended up

799
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: back dealing, like, back where they came from or started from?

800
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: And then, and then when dawn and lived? Um, not

801
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: that many Spaniards died. Some died of hunger, some died

802
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: being on the way up, by being uh killed by

803
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: natives as they were going north. UH, some died from

804
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: poisonous plants they were eating because they were so hungry,

805
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: and then some died in the battles that they had

806
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: in the Albuquerque Bernelo area. Do you believe that the

807
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 1: do you believe that they were getting shot by poison

808
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: arrows because they felt that they were Oh, no question.

809
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: In fact, this gets back to the to the indigenous

810
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: people that I have studied for forty years, the CEVIYPRIOTEM,

811
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 1: the ancestors of the people there in the Tucson area, uh,

812
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: the Atham. UH, their ancestors use poison arrows. In fact,

813
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: I studied a battle from when the Jesuit Um uh

814
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: sabrio Keino was there. Um, a battle occurred five D

815
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: Apache and the allies attacked this eighty person Sipriatan village

816
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: on the San Pedro River, that Middle River. Again Anyway,

817
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,479
Speaker 1: they ended up prevailing. UH, despite that. It's a long story,

818
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: it's an incredible story, it's absolutely fabulous, but anyway, Um,

819
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: they use poison arrows against their enemies. And so while

820
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: only fifty four, I think it was, enemies were actually

821
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: killed on the site that day, they pursued them into

822
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: the mountains and over three hundred and sixty, I think,

823
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: died on the way to the mountains because they'd been

824
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: pierced by those arrows. These guys that talked about getting

825
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: like a superficial wound on your wrists, say, and then

826
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: it would be that they talk of, like everything would

827
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: rod away and you could just see the sinews and

828
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: the bones. They'd get into excruciating pain and die, Yep,

829
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: because they were like because they got some kind of

830
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: crazy thing. They're dipping these little arrows in and they

831
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: just sit and ambush them and just try to just

832
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: prick them with the Arrow. Yeah, it's some actually, interestingly,

833
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: I identified what plant it is. It's a sap of

834
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: a Mexican jumping being. I can't remember the scientific name

835
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: because it was in the process of changing when I

836
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 1: studied it. But here's the fun thing. My site, the villa,

837
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: or the town side of San Hieronimo three. That was

838
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: my first Coronado side. I found where the battle occurred.

839
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: The documentary record from a few years later, from twenty

840
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: four years later, talks about it again from a survivor

841
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: and part of what the story is is really fascinating.

842
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating story which I won't go through unless

843
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: you want me to, but part of the story is

844
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: that the captain was sleeping with the wives and daughters

845
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: of the native villagers, the Cevipriatam and that really ticked

846
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: the locals off, as well as the fact that they

847
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: were taking more than they said they were going to

848
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: take in terms of food stuff and resources, tribute and stuff. Uh.

849
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: And they were chopping the hands and noses off the residents,

850
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: probably for terrorism, but also probably for minor, minor offenses, lie,

851
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, complaining that you took my daughter, you know,

852
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,959
Speaker 1: or my wife. So Um. But anyway, so they saw

853
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: lights in the mountains, apparently the night before the attack occurred,

854
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: and that was unusual. So they doubled the guard and

855
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: we have six lookout stations, by the way, around our

856
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 1: via uh, and three of them with evidence of having

857
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: been attacked. So they doubled the guard, but the attack

858
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: didn't occur until the morning when everybody kind of got lazy.

859
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: You know that happens. They attacked, they snuck in, probably

860
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: with clubs first, and clubbed people in their houses and

861
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: such Um. The captain was killed, and he was the

862
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: one responsible for all of this stuff. In fact, he

863
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: was sleeping with two yeah too, and what those women

864
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: did is they took a poison arrowhead and pricked him

865
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: on the side between the folds of his wee peel,

866
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: which is kind of clothing, and he died from that.

867
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: And I love telling that story because, you know, the

868
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: yellow rows of Texas is Um, during the UM, Sam

869
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: Houston I was able to overrun Santa Anna because he

870
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: had a Mulatto woman there who was distracting him in

871
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: his tent at the time. Okay, so that's the story

872
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: and that's yeah, and so here we've got the yellow,

873
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: I mean here we have the red roses of Sulia,

874
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 1: who took a arrowhead and killed the captain during the battle.

875
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: So you have these brave women, women are rarely mentioned

876
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: in the historic record and UH, here they are central

877
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: figures in killing one of the main perpetrators of violence

878
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 1: in the area. It's just phenomenal. So there's the other

879
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: poison they made. Like it's like and read about, I

880
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: don't re understand it would be that they would take

881
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: dear liver and have a rattlesnake and, like pastor, a

882
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 1: rattlesnake with the deer liver until the lattle snakes struck

883
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: the deer liver and then they'd pay ace. That is that.

884
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: Does that seem like legit Um? That isn't a that

885
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: was one of the Apache tribe's way of doing it.

886
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: There's a variety of different kinds of poison that one

887
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: can use. Yeah, I've studied some of it, not because

888
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: I have any intense and using it, but I find

889
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: poison fascinating the same reason other people do, but because

890
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: it plays such an important role in the historic record

891
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: and also in warfare in the historic record, because when

892
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: you start using poison you're trying to kill people. It's

893
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: not you're just having this ritualized warfare like some small

894
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: societies do, so that you don't have to kill a

895
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: number of people. When you start using poison, you're trying

896
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: to kill people. You know, you're trying to kill as

897
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: many as you can. There's a I don't want to

898
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: take us too far, afield, but there's a I think

899
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: you've just passed away geists geist. Just I yeah, yeah,

900
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: maybe it was him. Apologies to his UH survivors if

901
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about this, but in looking at the place,

902
00:54:56,200 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: to seeing Megafauna extinctions, I feel a key help because

903
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, how would they have killed them?

904
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: You know, we just don't have that many projectile points

905
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: associated with mammoths. And he wrote the thing about how

906
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: do we know that they weren't hunting with poison? And

907
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: he talked about because poison is not like we know

908
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: in South America poisons used. We know in Africa they

909
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: hunt big game with poison. But he was making the

910
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: case of why have we just ignored the role of

911
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: poison in hunting when we know that poison is used

912
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: in warfare? Well, we also know it is used in

913
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: food acquisition and stuff like some, I think it's South American, groups,

914
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: put poison in the water, all the fish come to

915
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 1: the surface kind of thing. So I mean poison plays

916
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: a role in all kinds of food acquisition strategies. So

917
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: that's not just surprising, although I don't know how to

918
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 1: respond to the other than one thought is that one

919
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 1: of the reasons those fluted points are fluted is so

920
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: that the blood flows. And that doesn't make sense with

921
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: trying to get the poison to enter the bloods dreams. So, but,

922
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 1: but they could have been using other weapons to get

923
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: the poison in. Right. So uh, one might think, why

924
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: would anyone give a ship uh what route they took?

925
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: But I'm starting to put it together. If you find

926
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: the route, you can find the stuff well and like

927
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: and and put and solve the mystery. Well, solving the

928
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: mystery is a huge part of it. That's where part

929
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: of my passion comes from. Right. But for me, as

930
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I love finding things, I love piecing the

931
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: story together using archaeology, the historic record and a variety

932
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: of other things, geography, ethnography and so on. But I

933
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: also have gotten to the point in my career many,

934
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: many years ago, probably a couple of decades ago, where

935
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: I realized that it's more than just an academic pursuit.

936
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: For me, I like it when it becomes relevant to

937
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: the people that I'm studying. So that's why I work

938
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: with the Athum uh, the the direct descendants of not

939
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: only the mission and presidio sites and and Ceviibrieatham sites

940
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: that I studied, the native sites, but also this coronado story,

941
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: because now that we know where the route is, we

942
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: know that they were impacted. Everybody has thought that it

943
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: was the OPATA, a different group further eastern Sonora, that Coronado, etcetera,

944
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Those were the ones who were impacted. No,

945
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: it turns out it's the Atham, the AUTHOM had some

946
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: of the earliest negative encounters with Europeans. So it matters

947
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: to them, not only, like I said before, so they

948
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: can understand the history of trauma where some of their

949
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: cultural changes occurred. You know, they probably had, you know,

950
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: kids who were mixed race because of this rape that occurred.

951
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: I mean all of these groups did in fact probably

952
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: also a stave them. Probably was sleeping with all kinds

953
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: of native women. So they're probably African American intermixture. There's

954
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: European intermixture and stuff. So that can you main being

955
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: a native woman in one of these towns that got

956
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: raped by one of these men and then having this

957
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: white looking kid that you have to deal with and explain,

958
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it there's all kinds of repercussions

959
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: along those lines. But also, like I said before, now

960
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: we know that the atom were the bravest, they were

961
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: the valiant ones, they were the ones that made the whole.

962
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: I mean that was the final nail in the coffin

963
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: for the expedition. Once that happened, there's you know, that

964
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: that intermediate supply base basically was gone, and so the

965
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: distance between, quote, Spanish civilization and where they were at

966
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: just doubled in size, and so it made it almost impossible.

967
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It allows us to put later

968
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: ethnography with earlier ethnography as well. There are so many

969
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: reasons as important Um with archaeology too, and this is

970
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't understand. When we find,

971
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: when I find a site like I can answer a

972
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: whole range of other questions, like at our town sites

973
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: and Hieronimo. People have said that it's just a supply base,

974
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: that there were only men there, so it wasn't a settlement. Well,

975
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: first of all, you can have settlements just of men.

976
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: You can have settlements of men of just age fifteen,

977
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and it's still a settlement. But the

978
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: point is is we there were some women and children

979
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: along on the expedition. We don't know how many, but

980
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: I will be able to tell maybe in the archaeological

981
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: record whether there were women and children at our site.

982
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: That's just one of the kinds of things that we

983
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: can examine, one of the questions that we can examine

984
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: with the archaeological record that are silent in the historic record.

985
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: If you find, if you find latrine sites, can you

986
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,959
Speaker 1: guys do genetic stuff off that? Probably about who would

987
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: you compare it to? You know, you'd have to find

988
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: the descendant populations and stuff. Which would could you? Could

989
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: you tell, uh, male, female, off latrine like off of latrines?

990
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never done that. You know, you

991
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: got a team up with Dr Beth Shapiro. Okay, you

992
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: guys be best friends. Is She full of ship? Listen, man,

993
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: she's the coolest. She's the coolest. She's far from fullish

994
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: person on the planet when it comes to genetics and stuff. Cool.

995
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: You gotta talk to her. Yeah, well, I'm hoping, you know,

996
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: and you find, you find on the tree site and

997
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: get Best Shapiro on air, she'll figure out what's going on.

998
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: We're expecting maybe to find bodies on this site. No, no,

999
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: atom were killed. No, some viper you were killed. No,

1000
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: none of the natives were killed. None of the local natives,

1001
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: but some of the Spaniards were killed. But the problem

1002
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: is in an archaeologist, if we find a body we

1003
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: have to stop digging. So we don't want to find

1004
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: him until the very end. So I'm not looking around it.

1005
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: When you find a site, is it? How does it work?

1006
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: Does it work that someone finds something weird and you

1007
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: go and look at me like Bigali, here's a site,

1008
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: or is it that you say there should be a

1009
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: site there. Let me go look both and other things. So, uh,

1010
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: the first site I found, uh, is I found it

1011
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: very in a very unique way. So I was working

1012
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: on trying to find camp sites along the ONS a trail,

1013
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,439
Speaker 1: because nobody's found any campsites along the on the trail.

1014
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: We know where the route is, that nobody's actually found

1015
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: any campsites. Historians of guests where they are. What's that?

1016
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: What's the on the trail? UH, WAMBATISTA Tonza, in seventy

1017
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: four seventy went out and founded San Francisco, basically brought

1018
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: a colony out there. Okay, so he left from TUBAC

1019
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: presidio in southern Arizona, south at Tucson, and so, being

1020
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I don't want to guess where the site is,

1021
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: I want to find evidence. So I found across a

1022
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: petrockly cross and I thought, Oh, maybe this is Barcos

1023
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: de Niza, maybe this is father Kino or maybe this

1024
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: is Wamba Desta, the Anza. So I finally figured out

1025
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: it's probably on because there's a campsite, campsite uh inferred

1026
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: to be near there. And then I found another Petrock

1027
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: clyff cross further up where we know another camp site.

1028
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: They're carving crosses into rocks. Yeah, exactly, and they're probably

1029
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, they're at water sources there, at passes and

1030
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and we know they're along trails. I

1031
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: actually have a youtube video that talks about the Anta

1032
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: trail and shows the crosses and so on. So but anyway,

1033
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: for a while I was thinking maybe it's Marcos de

1034
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: Niza and maybe this is the same route and so on.

1035
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: So I started looking into things and then I couldn't

1036
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: find any horse shoes related to Uh Ansa, and we

1037
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: think that maybe horse shoes weren't used later in time

1038
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: because they had the type of horses that had rougher Hoofs,

1039
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: like Spanish barbs, and they didn't need them. Plus, horse

1040
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: shoes were very expensive. But we know that they were

1041
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: used in the Coronado period, during the expedition, and I

1042
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: have a bunch of them. I do, I mean I

1043
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: found that's more. These other sites, many of them are

1044
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: defined by in part by horse shoes. Are Mule shoes. Oh,

1045
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 1: so when you guys talk about the nails, is the

1046
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails? Yes, but I also have a video. Yeah,

1047
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: so I have a video on that and that's one

1048
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: of the uses of them. But there's probably other uses

1049
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: for the nails as well. But they're gable headed or

1050
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: carrot headed nails. I've started call them gable headed nails

1051
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: because they're, you know, like gabled roof and that makes

1052
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: a lot more sense. The carrot is an editing character

1053
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: kind of because of that, the upside down V shape Um.

1054
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: But Anyway, uh, where were we? Horseshoes? Oh, so I

1055
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: was looking. I had worked at the Spanish presidio Santa

1056
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: Crist terranant prasidio before, excavated there for years and never

1057
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: found any horse shoes. So I wasn't hopeful, but I

1058
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: looked on the Internet for, you know, what kind of

1059
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: horse shoes might have they had that I'm missing, or

1060
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails, and then I found an image of these

1061
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: online and nobody knew where they were at. Uh, but

1062
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 1: we knew have found them, and so I guessed where

1063
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 1: he might have found them because I had been working

1064
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: on a site for years. I've worked the whole Area

1065
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: A lot. But I found a Horse Jangle because Cojo,

1066
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: uh Jingle Bobs, some people call him, from the bridle

1067
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: bit on my subiper site and I thought this looks

1068
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: just like the one on the Jimmy Ollen site. They're

1069
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: in Texas, a known Coronado site. So I wondered, like

1070
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, could this be Coronado, but I had

1071
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 1: no way of proving it right. Well, so when I

1072
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 1: guessed where these might have come from, I went back

1073
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,479
Speaker 1: to that site after doing a train analysis and within

1074
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: a couple of hours, within less than two hours, had

1075
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: found Coronado. So the metal detector. Yeah, yeah, Yep, when

1076
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: you say you had found Coronado, that doesn't mean you

1077
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:10,479
Speaker 1: found his body. No, no, he's buried. He died ten something. Yeah,

1078
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,479
Speaker 1: what I mean is um that evidence of Coronado's trail

1079
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 1: and it turns out a town site and now we have,

1080
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: like I said, four down here and there's a bunch

1081
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: of Albuquerque and so on, and one for sure in

1082
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: Texas Um. So that's what I mean as an archaeologist

1083
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: when I found Coronado. Yeah, real quick before you go

1084
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 1: farther on, because I'm just still, like you were saying earlier,

1085
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: when Steve Asked you, like Oh, if you find the path,

1086
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: then then you unravel the mystery. But what is the

1087
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 1: like in real short form? What is the mystery still

1088
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: yet with this whole expedition? Well, part of the thing

1089
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: is that nobody's been able to find it. So that

1090
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: makes it the path. Like how could thousands of people

1091
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: and thousands ahead of livestock? I have this role in

1092
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: battle from Mexico to Kansas. So the path is the mystery,

1093
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: the path and the campsites. And even two fifty years

1094
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: or whatever it is ago, Father Keino and his military escort,

1095
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: in their documents they left, questioned where coronado went and said, hey,

1096
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: he probably went here. You know, turns out corn, turns

1097
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: out Father Keno from six nineties actually stayed at one

1098
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: of the places where one of our sites are and

1099
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: he didn't know it, which is really kind of cool actually.

1100
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: So we have these layers of history and stuff, but

1101
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: it's been lost. It was lost afterwards partly because they

1102
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 1: didn't know where they were. Right. They didn't know where

1103
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: they were on the train. They went back and forth

1104
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: several times so they could find their way, but they

1105
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: had they had no idea where they were. There's no

1106
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: surviving map of this part. So even if they did

1107
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: a map, even if even if they prepared a map,

1108
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it would help much. When they were

1109
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: crossing the UH Yano esticado state plans, they were leaving

1110
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: big mountains of buffalo chips so they could try to

1111
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: find their way back the way they came. Yeah, and

1112
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: then also, yeah, they true. And then also to find

1113
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: their way, they'd shoot arrows. They wait till the morning,

1114
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 1: till the sun rose, they'd shoot a couple of arrows

1115
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: and then keep shooting them over one another so they

1116
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 1: could stay on the trail. And My uh, what I

1117
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: imagine is when they got led astray by those guides,

1118
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: they shot them a little bit to the right each time.

1119
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: Right they knew exactly what they were doing. So you

1120
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 1: guys found a this kind of most surprising thing. You've

1121
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: turned up, Um, one the cross like armaments, crossbowl Arrow

1122
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 1: you know, projectile points from crossbows that they used and

1123
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: they fought. But you found a cannon. Cannon, Yep. So

1124
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: before I mentioned the cannon, what we have with regard

1125
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: to the crossbow boltheads? We have a I'll show you one,

1126
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: but also, Um, what I have here is, Um, a

1127
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: map that we plotted them out. I could see in

1128
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: the field that Um that we had clustering, but I

1129
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: plotted it out more recently and Um, basically what you

1130
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: can see. I'M NOT gonna be able to find it now,

1131
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 1: of course. Um, what you can see is that the

1132
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads cluster and in just a tour, actually four

1133
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: different areas and in the first area with most of them,

1134
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: including broken ones, a lot of tips and so on. Uh,

1135
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: there are also subpriatam stone arrowheads. So that's where there

1136
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: was little shootouts. Yeah, they came up the wash and

1137
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 1: that right in the heart of the town site. So Um,

1138
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: so you can see that. Um, and uh, that is

1139
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: one of the strong like when I tell people how

1140
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 1: many crossbow boltheads. We have more than any other coronado site.

1141
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,679
Speaker 1: That's convincing. And then how they cluster. We can see

1142
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 1: where they went and such. But Um, near where that

1143
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: occurred we did find the cannon, and the Cannon Uh is.

1144
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 1: I'm still looking for this image. Sorry. Um, the cannon

1145
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:07,680
Speaker 1: was found, uh, metal detecting, but it was sitting on

1146
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: the obviously, I'd like to rent you for a couple

1147
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 1: of weeks, man, just to just to go metal detecting.

1148
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 1: We'll see. I got some real honey hooles. I'd like

1149
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: to go. Have you shown me how to work? Yeah,

1150
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: but see, as a professional archaeologist, what I have to say,

1151
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 1: and this is really, I think, important, metal detecting is

1152
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 1: an important tool and I didn't use it much until recently,

1153
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 1: but this is one of the reasons coronado hadn't been found,

1154
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 1: because archaeologists were hesitant to use metal detectors because we

1155
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: did not want to to lead the public to the

1156
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: idea that you can just go out and loot, meaning

1157
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: take things out of context. And well, that's what I'm

1158
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: fixing to do with you. Yeah, there you go. So

1159
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: that's what you think. Huh? So? So, anyway, here's my point,

1160
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 1: and I want to make a point about this. I'm

1161
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 1: not trying to be arrogant, because I know that people.

1162
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: One of the reason my crew volunteers, and I have

1163
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: like thirty or forty people volunteering with me, and one

1164
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 1: of the reasons they do it is there totally passionate

1165
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:08,680
Speaker 1: about finding this stuff and they get to do it

1166
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: in a way that's professionally or, you know, responsible. Yeah,

1167
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: they're they're like making history. They're making history and they

1168
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 1: knew from the beginning and everybody sworn to secrecy and

1169
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: certain rules. We haven't stuff that they can't keep anything.

1170
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: But but here's the deal, the reason this is important

1171
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 1: and I can't stress is enough. Remember, I was talking

1172
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: about the Sonora River and the Sampedro, where everybody thought

1173
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: they went up there, and I have two sites to

1174
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: the West and there's two sites to the east, and

1175
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: now I'm at the Sampedro trying to decide whether they

1176
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: turned north, south or went straight east. Well, I think

1177
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: they might have went north because somebody found a medieval

1178
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 1: horseshoe fragment there fifty years ago. The woman who allowed

1179
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 1: this person to look was given this and a few

1180
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 1: other artifacts, and I saw it in her display case.

1181
01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 1: She didn't do the meddle detecting. She she doesn't know

1182
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: exactly where found, but she thinks it was found to

1183
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 1: the north. Now that's the problem. First of all, if

1184
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: I hadn't run into her. I ran into her through

1185
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: a friend WHO's on the project, who I've known for

1186
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 1: some time, and I saw this. Where did you get this?

1187
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: So she doesn't really know where it came from. So

1188
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: that's part of the problem. So I'M gonna be on

1189
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: this wild goose chase. But if she knew exactly where

1190
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 1: it came from, then I could walk right there and

1191
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 1: know that that's where the site is. What if that's

1192
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 1: the only artifact that was thrown from a mule or

1193
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 1: horse or the only artifact left behind by the expedition

1194
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: in that location? Then it's a race and so many

1195
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 1: people pick these things up they don't record where they're from.

1196
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 1: And that's the one key. And I was working on

1197
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: another site. The WHO, the Apache leader? Who? Where he killed?

1198
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: Uh Lieutenant cushing, uh Um in one, hero of Tucson

1199
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: and so on. Nobody could find this place. I found

1200
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: it fairly quick. Uh train analysis again and understanding Apache

1201
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: ambush behavior and the thing that we realized is that

1202
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: it had been metal detected and collected before. And what happened?

1203
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 1: Is it with somebody from Wisconsin in the Tucson Sierra

1204
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: Vista area. He collected all this stuff. He showed a

1205
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: local gun shop and they verified it. And that's how

1206
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 1: I know it happened, because it's one of the people

1207
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: on my crew and the guy has disappeared. He never

1208
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 1: came back. He was going to come back and the

1209
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: things probably ended up in the landfill from Wisconsin. Yeah,

1210
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: his family probably. I've rel nonetheless. Well, you know, I've

1211
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 1: called up there and tried to figure out maybe where

1212
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: they could be. But the problem is when somebody dies,

1213
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: their collections just get tossed half the time because nobody recognized.

1214
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: They think it's a bunch of trash. And so, with

1215
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: regard to Coronado, it's super important that they leave so little.

1216
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: These are overnight encampments for the most part, and you

1217
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: find one thing in some cases. But if you find

1218
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: one thing, artifacts can move, they can get there by

1219
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: other reasons. A native could have picked it up or whatever.

1220
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: But the fact is if you find an alignment of them,

1221
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: then you know you've got the trail. When somebody takes

1222
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 1: one of those out, it's harder to find the next one,

1223
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 1: or you could erase whole segments of the trail. So

1224
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: I totally understand and I'm on board with what you're saying.

1225
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 1: It took me a while to get there, but and

1226
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: and and again I've been on. I got to spend

1227
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: time with archaeologists. We found ice age projectile points that

1228
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: they would just shove back into the ground. It was

1229
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: painful for me. I would fantasize about going back there

1230
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 1: and getting them all. Never did you like working with me.

1231
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 1: I get it, understand and when I pointed out, when

1232
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 1: I pointed out, I'm just pointed out because it's what

1233
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: like a a people people. People walk around looking at

1234
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: the ground, thinking you're gonna find some cool ship land

1235
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: there right. It's like they often view it as why

1236
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:12,440
Speaker 1: is that archaeologist finding it? Like why is that? Okay,

1237
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 1: but it's bad for me to find it, and that's

1238
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 1: it's like they're like what are they? They're they're better

1239
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 1: than me. You know what is it? I've heard that

1240
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: story too and I understand it. I certainly didn't. What

1241
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: do you laugh about? You think you're better than me,

1242
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 1: because you know I'm saying it's definitely it's something a

1243
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 1: little kid who is something taken away from them. Go

1244
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 1: volunteer with Danny. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking

1245
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: about like, no, I'm putting myself in like articulating the

1246
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,679
Speaker 1: thing that's been okay, do this test. Do this test.

1247
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 1: Go on Um, go on Instagram, and and and just

1248
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: go on instagram. Take take a projectile point. Okay, and

1249
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: go on instagram and put in the palm of your

1250
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: hand and say I found this uh Indian Arrowhead. Too

1251
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 1: Bad I couldn't keep it, and then look in the

1252
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 1: comments section a couple of days later. Oh Yeah, I've

1253
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 1: I've read this. So like this is a widely held viewpoint. Yeah,

1254
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,760
Speaker 1: I know the like what are the odds someone's gonna

1255
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 1: find it? It's been here this long, no one's found

1256
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,599
Speaker 1: it yet, whatever. And this ship winds up in coffee

1257
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: cans on people's Windows, on the wall right there. If

1258
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 1: Our podcasts people send us that ship, I gotta I

1259
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 1: guess people try to give me all the time. But

1260
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 1: here's the thing. The fact is is that this site

1261
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 1: where the first big the first site I found, the

1262
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:48,719
Speaker 1: biggest one. The town site where the battle occurred. People

1263
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 1: had metal detected there before that. Yeah, they haven't had

1264
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: no idea what they're looking at. Well, they had worst

1265
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 1: metal detectors. They didn't know what they were looking at

1266
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: and they're all out of context. And the fact is

1267
01:15:58,040 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: is what I would say to people who have that

1268
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 1: view is I understand it. It's the thrill, it's the

1269
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:06,400
Speaker 1: thrill of the chase, it's the adventure, it's finding something

1270
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 1: cool and old. But Americans are kind of unique in

1271
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: that way. Is that we got to keep things for

1272
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: some reason. We want to put them on our mantle.

1273
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 1: Other people when people come over and go see that, yeah, exactly,

1274
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,679
Speaker 1: ship and we like to collect. Well, and also people

1275
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 1: have collected it and said I collected this for you

1276
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 1: so that nobody else would take it, and I said

1277
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 1: you just took it, you know. But tell you something,

1278
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 1: this is gonna trip you up. This is the Tony

1279
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 1: Baker story, the late Tony Baker. They were talking bad

1280
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 1: about the dead. No, they found Tony Baker. No, I

1281
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 1: don't know where it went. I remember telling me the story.

1282
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 1: They found they were at a Pueblo. Archaeologists working a

1283
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:51,919
Speaker 1: Pueblo site had found where the Pueblo in people had

1284
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 1: a stash of fulsome points. They found it and thought

1285
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, and they're they're separated by ten thousand years.

1286
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 1: We find that in archaeological sites. Is often things were

1287
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 1: picked up to put in medicine bags or picked up

1288
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: as Curios or also picked up at to reuse. So

1289
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: that's quite common. They're like these people are from a long,

1290
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 1: long time ago. Let's strong in jail. I don't know

1291
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:23,839
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The viewpoint be like they, in their time,

1292
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: like a thousand years ago whatever, recognized that like wow, yeah, no,

1293
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,000
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing from a long time ago. And See,

1294
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 1: I think there's people who just don't care about history

1295
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 1: in the past, but there's huge number of people, I'd

1296
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 1: say maybe half the population or more, that find a

1297
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,639
Speaker 1: fascination with the past, with history, with people have gone before.

1298
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 1: It's a connection. Artifacts provide that tangible connection to the

1299
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 1: past and that's why people are enthralled by it. But

1300
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:52,759
Speaker 1: what I will say is, getting back to our site

1301
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 1: and our project, I haven't asked my biggest question yet,

1302
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 1: and it has to do with the cannon. Okay, so

1303
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: the reason that it's important is what if somebody had

1304
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: come in and collected all these crossbow bolt heads. If

1305
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 1: they had, you know, done it and found this or

1306
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 1: the cannon the bolt heads, we wouldn't have been able

1307
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: to see the pattern, right, we wouldn't have known that

1308
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 1: this is a most important historic site, potentially in the region,

1309
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 1: in the southern Arizona at least Um. If they had

1310
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 1: found the cannon, you know where I'd be right now?

1311
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: In some Saudi's basement in his private collection. That's right

1312
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 1: on some of my kids. Yeah, exactly, see. So the

1313
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 1: way I look at this is this is all of

1314
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: our histories, right is this not just my find, and

1315
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:43,640
Speaker 1: that's why I'm sharing it in the film and the

1316
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: documentary film. But I also see that as an archaeologist,

1317
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: I could go out and find this stuff and not

1318
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 1: tell anybody, right, I mean, I could do it just

1319
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: like the public does, but I don't because I recognize

1320
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: that this is our collective history and most other countries,

1321
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,040
Speaker 1: how a sensibility about that that we would help if

1322
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,800
Speaker 1: we started thinking about it this way, because once we

1323
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,600
Speaker 1: take something out of the context, is everything, once we

1324
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 1: take it out of its context in the field, we

1325
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 1: lose the story, the story about Coronado and this uh

1326
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:20,719
Speaker 1: town site of San Joranimo, the interaction with the natives

1327
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:24,000
Speaker 1: and all of this is just so phenomenal. It's the

1328
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: story itself that we can tell from the artifacts and

1329
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: where we found them on the ground and the relationship

1330
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 1: to each other and the features, the structures and so

1331
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: on that we're finding. If people just collected that, we

1332
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,639
Speaker 1: would lose that. So we have this whole the whole

1333
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 1: story that we're able to develop because people didn't get

1334
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 1: in there and destroy the evidence. And that's why I

1335
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,719
Speaker 1: keep the place secret, because I can only work so much.

1336
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 1: See I can only work so fast. I almost killed

1337
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 1: myself last season trying to get certain things done before

1338
01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:58,680
Speaker 1: the end of the before it got too hot and

1339
01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 1: before the rains and stuff. But if people find out

1340
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 1: where it is, they're going to come into metal detect

1341
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:05,840
Speaker 1: and then it's going to mess up our distributions. So

1342
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: at least until we're done metal detective, I've been going

1343
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,680
Speaker 1: over some areas five times to get everything out so

1344
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 1: that people don't feel the need to go right Um,

1345
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,600
Speaker 1: we've got to figure out how to protect it uh,

1346
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 1: but if you want to see it, you'll have to

1347
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 1: wait till it's in a museum. Yeah, we'll probably end

1348
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 1: up doing site tours and stuff, but they're gonna it's

1349
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 1: gonna be consultation with various landowners and agencies and, you know,

1350
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 1: the whole whole range, because it's even when I extract

1351
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:37,639
Speaker 1: what I extract, I'm only going to do a subset

1352
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 1: of the evidence. there. The the ethic is to save

1353
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 1: a lot of it for the future, and so I'll

1354
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:47,639
Speaker 1: do that. But also the landowners don't want to be overrun. Uh,

1355
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be turned into, hopefully to a

1356
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 1: monument or landmark so that people can go just like

1357
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: they do to a national park. Um, it's such a

1358
01:20:57,080 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 1: big thing. It's such a big fine so so important

1359
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:05,600
Speaker 1: to our history, into the history of underrepresented populations, native populations,

1360
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 1: the Ottom and also the Hispanics in the area. It's

1361
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: going to be a matter of pride for them and

1362
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: they're gonna want to have their interpretations. In fact, the

1363
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: autumn that we've brought out so far are really proud

1364
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 1: to be part of it so that they can start

1365
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:24,360
Speaker 1: telling their story for a change. So I mean it

1366
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 1: has social implications. The fact that we've been able to

1367
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 1: find this stuff intact, that it hasn't been collected before.

1368
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 1: I'll stop harping. That's enough. But you got it. You

1369
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: got it covered. Could I want to ask my biggest questions?

1370
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,679
Speaker 1: You can describe the Canon within this, within this thing,

1371
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 1: but you found the oldest gun to ever turn up

1372
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 1: in the US. Okay, Yep, it's been sitting there for

1373
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 1: I can't really do the math, four years when we

1374
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 1: found it. It's been sitting there for four years. And

1375
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 1: you find it kind of like built into an adobe wall. No, no, sitting, uh,

1376
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 1: inside a structure. So the structure walls were made of

1377
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 1: Adobe and rock and had collapsed on it to protect it.

1378
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 1: But I haven't done my question yet. Okay, what the

1379
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 1: Hell did someone think that wall was? WHO's been looking

1380
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 1: at it? First, since, like, are there that many walls

1381
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: out there? They're like, Oh, I didn't know that the

1382
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 1: Coronado expedition built that wall in my backyard. What was

1383
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:39,320
Speaker 1: it regarded like? How is it perceived by the people

1384
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: who are occupying that area now? Okay, so first of

1385
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 1: all it's ranch land, but secondly there's no walls visible

1386
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:48,839
Speaker 1: on the surface. So what happened is it was partially

1387
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 1: burned and collapsed at the end and it's melted into

1388
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 1: the surface and my heart was somehow picturing it. They're like, Oh,

1389
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 1: I don't know what that old wall was, people passing

1390
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 1: it by for French today. Yeah, archeologists surface. Yeah, and

1391
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 1: and so my question. Yeah, so my entire careers, career

1392
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: has been spent on identifying Apache, so viper, all these

1393
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:18,600
Speaker 1: groups that are difficult to define, hard to see the

1394
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:21,639
Speaker 1: archaeological evidence. And this is just as difficult, just as

1395
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:24,720
Speaker 1: hard because it's a type of structure. The structure I'm

1396
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 1: digging now is unlike the prehistoric stuff and unlike the

1397
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: later historic stuff, and that's what's so cool about it.

1398
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 1: So I've been digging it very carefully to try not

1399
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,320
Speaker 1: to ruin it, because there's only one structure in the

1400
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 1: entire world that has coronado's cannon in it, m as

1401
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 1: far as we know. So, uh, so, I I have

1402
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 1: this responsibility which almost paralyzed me. You know, it's like

1403
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: in decision. What do I do? Because I have I

1404
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:55,200
Speaker 1: have a responsibility as a professional. Uh Two, be as

1405
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 1: careful as I can and to preserve as much of

1406
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 1: it as possible. And so tell how you guys found thing.

1407
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 1: The cannon. Yeah, like, what was it doing and how

1408
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 1: did you find okay, it was laying there kind of

1409
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 1: smoking a cigarette. No, Um, only two of us were

1410
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 1: out in the field that day. So, uh, it was

1411
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 1: in September of we were. I had just laid out

1412
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:21,600
Speaker 1: that we lay out these tape lines so that we

1413
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 1: can systematically metal detect right and uh, Chris went ahead

1414
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 1: and got started and I finished laying out the lines

1415
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,920
Speaker 1: and then I got started. In like five yards or

1416
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 1: meters into the first line I got a hit. It

1417
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: wasn't very strong, so I started digging it. As. Are

1418
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,760
Speaker 1: you set for a specific type of metal? No, U.

1419
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 1: The detectors that I use are all medals. I got

1420
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 1: them set for all medals. UH, intentionally so, because most

1421
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 1: people looking for treasures and stuff are looking for gold

1422
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:58,599
Speaker 1: or looking for, you know, old coins and stuff. We're

1423
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:01,240
Speaker 1: just as interested in the E and artifacts, the Ferris

1424
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 1: artifacts is, we are other things like the nails are right.

1425
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: So I have the hardest time explaining to my kids

1426
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,360
Speaker 1: that they're not going to find stone arrowheads with their metal. No,

1427
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: you won't, but I explain it. It's twenty times, but

1428
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: it just doesn't click. They think it's an old thing, detector,

1429
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:26,400
Speaker 1: walk up on the street, find old people, right. No, Um,

1430
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 1: so all metals. In fact, I've had a hard time

1431
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 1: convincing my crew at times. Look, we can't discriminate. You've

1432
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:34,639
Speaker 1: got to find everything. So you're digging through old twenty

1433
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: two shell casings and pull tabs off beer cans and, Um,

1434
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 1: I want to tell all the hunters out there please, please,

1435
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 1: we have so many. In fact, people yell out shotgun

1436
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: because we find so many shotgun shells. Uh. It's just

1437
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. A little bb size shot. We can we

1438
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 1: get that too? You're finding that. Oh yeah, our detectors

1439
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 1: are good and our crews are good, so we find

1440
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:01,439
Speaker 1: really tiny stuff. You know, twenty two is all kinds

1441
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:04,880
Speaker 1: of stuff. A lead shot. She should pair up with

1442
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: Chris Parish. It's like a lead clean up at the

1443
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:12,280
Speaker 1: same time as like an archaeological well, what we do

1444
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 1: is we collect that kind of stuff and then we

1445
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:17,679
Speaker 1: dump it. But I always checked my cruise pockets because

1446
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:20,040
Speaker 1: a couple of times, no, no, no, no, because a

1447
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 1: couple of times they don't take anything, but a couple

1448
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,600
Speaker 1: of times something that was a value. We thought what

1449
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 1: they thought was a piece of wire and it wasn't okay. So,

1450
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:33,439
Speaker 1: like what we have is we have fish hooks, like

1451
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,599
Speaker 1: size number six fish hooks. We have several of those

1452
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 1: and one with a weight. We have um little spring

1453
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 1: things that went inside uh Um matchlocks and we lock guns.

1454
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:53,719
Speaker 1: We have expedition had fish hooks. So they were fishing

1455
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 1: at our site because it's near water. Isn't that cool?

1456
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: We have several. I wouldn't have believed it if we

1457
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 1: just found one. But get a picture of that old

1458
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:04,599
Speaker 1: ask Fishhook. Um, I'll see, we'll get it from you. Yeah, yeah,

1459
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 1: and then, and then, okay, but I interrupted. You tell

1460
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 1: me how you found the cannon. So there you are.

1461
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, so I I got a hit and I

1462
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:15,960
Speaker 1: started digging down and it was about a foot under

1463
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: the ground and I thought this is really weird. What

1464
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:20,680
Speaker 1: is this? And so I called Chris, because any time

1465
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 1: we find something cool we call the other person over.

1466
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: So he comes over and what is that? And I said,

1467
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's a bell, because it had

1468
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,760
Speaker 1: that Cassoo Bell on top, you know, and uh, we

1469
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 1: kept digging. Finally he takes the metal detection he goes

1470
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:37,120
Speaker 1: it's long. I wonder if it's an irrigation pipe. I said,

1471
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 1: it's not an irrigation pipe. What is it? You know

1472
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 1: there's no irrigation out here. Um. Anyway, so he kept

1473
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: digging it and realized started realizing what it was. And

1474
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 1: so the thing is, I sent you something. It shows

1475
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,000
Speaker 1: the roots wrapped around the gun. So I called a

1476
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 1: couple other crew members who were the main crew members

1477
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 1: at the time. I said you gotta get out here.

1478
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 1: We found this. I sent him a picture of it

1479
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 1: and uh, I said you've got to bring a sauce

1480
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:08,839
Speaker 1: all or something, because we got these roots wrapped around it. So, uh,

1481
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:10,599
Speaker 1: one of the people where he was able to come

1482
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:12,880
Speaker 1: out and he brought a sauceall and we were we

1483
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 1: knew by that point that it was pretty cool and

1484
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 1: that it was probably a canon or something. We didn't

1485
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 1: we've never seen one like that. Suite, how much of

1486
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 1: it were you looking at that moment, at that point

1487
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 1: in time? Like two inches of this thing? Are you

1488
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 1: already looking at of it? Um, when I called people,

1489
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:31,000
Speaker 1: was the one you were realizing that you had something

1490
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,879
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Well, I realized it was pretty darn awesome

1491
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 1: when I first dug down and only saw let's say

1492
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:41,599
Speaker 1: six inches of it because enough of the CASCA bell

1493
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 1: was exposed and I could tell it was a bronze

1494
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: like material. I didn't know it was bronze, but you know,

1495
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 1: something like that and uh, something unusual and Um, and

1496
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,439
Speaker 1: so I kept exposing it. But while I was digging it,

1497
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 1: I was also trying to figure out whether it was

1498
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:59,320
Speaker 1: in some kind of pit or something, because the context,

1499
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 1: once again, is critical. So it turns out it wasn't.

1500
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:05,719
Speaker 1: It was sitting on the floor of a destroyed structure

1501
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 1: from the battle. But UH, Chris took the metal detector

1502
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:11,320
Speaker 1: and figured out it was real long. So we dug

1503
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:14,280
Speaker 1: the whole thing and cleaned it out and stuff, and

1504
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 1: then the guy came out with a saws all and

1505
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:19,400
Speaker 1: we were so protective. I was really glad I found

1506
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:21,519
Speaker 1: it because I know how to dig the things. So

1507
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:23,400
Speaker 1: I didn't put any dings or anything on it. I

1508
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 1: mean that's that's kind of a source of pride, but

1509
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 1: also here's this rare artifact and I didn't want to

1510
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,719
Speaker 1: damage it anyway. So when we were using the SAWS alls,

1511
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: we were putting our hands to protect the can and

1512
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 1: I can't believe we did that. Finally, I said no,

1513
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 1: don't do that. Put your glove down. I mean that's

1514
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 1: how crazy it was. It was starting to get hot. Uh,

1515
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: it was only September, but September can be it was

1516
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 1: already September, but September can still be hot. By the

1517
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 1: time we finished up, we were just dripped and sweat

1518
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 1: and we were out of water and there were three

1519
01:29:57,560 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: of us out there and we just I mean at

1520
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:01,760
Speaker 1: that point it was just a man we were just

1521
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 1: glad to get it out of there. But the reason

1522
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,680
Speaker 1: we had to get it out that day is I've

1523
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 1: always had I think all archaeologists do this. Once you

1524
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,160
Speaker 1: find something cool, you can't just bury it and come

1525
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 1: back the next day and finish it, because you feel

1526
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 1: like all these eyes are on you, you know, like

1527
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: radio hosts following you out to the site. So you

1528
01:30:20,160 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 1: got to get it out. Something that important you got

1529
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:23,680
Speaker 1: to get out of the ground. So we stayed there

1530
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 1: until like two o'clock, I think it wasn't it, or

1531
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:38,519
Speaker 1: just about dying it was hot. Describe the cannon like.

1532
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:40,840
Speaker 1: How was it made? Where was it made? What would

1533
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: he use it for? Okay, so we've called it a

1534
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: wall gun, maybe a hack better, something as a hook,

1535
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,000
Speaker 1: a gun with a hook on the bottom that they

1536
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:52,000
Speaker 1: would put on a wall or parapet or something, or

1537
01:30:52,040 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 1: on a Tripod. Usually a shot by two men, one

1538
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 1: to light the match and the other one to hold it. Um. Yeah,

1539
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 1: God is a preliberal term and my thing for this thing.

1540
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: It is. But that's why that article that I gave you,

1541
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:08,720
Speaker 1: I've written it with a weapons expert and all of

1542
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:12,559
Speaker 1: his buddies have read it who are familiar with historic

1543
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:16,640
Speaker 1: cannons and guns and so on. So guns a generic term.

1544
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 1: It is a cannon. But yeah, just a listener understands

1545
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what you're describing it. It's

1546
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 1: basically like a in simple terms, it's like at you

1547
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: said seven gauge in the article. Yeah, yeah, I think

1548
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 1: it was like a millimeter. was roughly when it translated

1549
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 1: to yeah, the bore of it and surprisingly wasn't that heavy.

1550
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be a lot heavier, but

1551
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:51,080
Speaker 1: I think it cands around forty pounds and Um, it's uh,

1552
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:54,240
Speaker 1: it's actually heavier than that. When people, everybody WHO's picked

1553
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 1: it up, point this is really kind of heavy. Um

1554
01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:01,559
Speaker 1: It uh. In two sites in the Albuquerque Bernolio area

1555
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 1: they found some of the shot that probably went with it.

1556
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:09,160
Speaker 1: But at our site there's no walls too to bombard

1557
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:13,760
Speaker 1: with the larger shots. So we think that they were shooting, uh,

1558
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 1: Buckshot or swan shot, you know, smaller lead balls. It

1559
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:21,800
Speaker 1: wasn't loaded. Wasn't when you found it. It wasn't. Yeah,

1560
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 1: you should have brought you should have brought that thing here.

1561
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:28,519
Speaker 1: Was For us to take a game. And no stock either.

1562
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: No stock either. That was interesting. Like that Hook that

1563
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 1: you were just talking about, like they think that they

1564
01:32:34,439 --> 01:32:37,919
Speaker 1: used to like use that as a way to control

1565
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:41,400
Speaker 1: the weapon but also to manage the recoil a little bit. Exactly.

1566
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:43,639
Speaker 1: Placed on the far side of a wall or the forest,

1567
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: the hook would be on the forest of a wall

1568
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:50,479
Speaker 1: or a branch. So when the gun would recoil that, yeah, exactly,

1569
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:52,680
Speaker 1: and that's probably part of what the two people in

1570
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 1: the tripod are about. Two because it would have knocked

1571
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 1: somebody over. Otherwise been pretty powerful, depending on the charge

1572
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: that was put in there. But yes, so, um, it's crude.

1573
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to have makers marks. The PAN is

1574
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:10,240
Speaker 1: not dished out. UH, there's no decoration we have. The

1575
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 1: PAN is not dished no, it's flat. So when they

1576
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:15,400
Speaker 1: put priming powder around it is like would lay that

1577
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:18,040
Speaker 1: priming powder around a flat little surface, Yep, and take

1578
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:21,640
Speaker 1: a match and touch it to it and boom. Do

1579
01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:23,519
Speaker 1: you think it hadn't occurred to him to pan it out,

1580
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:27,360
Speaker 1: like we're people panting out the archibuses and stuff by then? Yeah,

1581
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 1: it's just that's one reason we think it was made

1582
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 1: in Mexico, because we know that Cortez made a bunch.

1583
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:37,440
Speaker 1: In fact, I've cided, I think, in that article Um,

1584
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:41,920
Speaker 1: the quotations about how he made several. What we've discerned, too,

1585
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:44,599
Speaker 1: is that this is actually a copper ally rather than

1586
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 1: really bronze. So it's a copper alloy, but they would

1587
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,400
Speaker 1: have considered it bronze. It's close enough, you know. So

1588
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: for some reason I thought when I read your paper,

1589
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:54,439
Speaker 1: I thought it was I thought you mentioned it being

1590
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: dished out, but it's just a flat little platform. Yeah,

1591
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,160
Speaker 1: I'll show you a picture later, but it's just at

1592
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 1: and so there's a variety of reasons. Plus it would

1593
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 1: have been uh Um. Oh, here's the other thing. The

1594
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:09,960
Speaker 1: the way you can see how it was cast. You

1595
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 1: can see the sprew marks on their still and as

1596
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: Um some of the experts have pointed out, no self

1597
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 1: respecting foundry in Spain would have left those on there.

1598
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 1: You know, there's a matter of pride in making Nice firearms.

1599
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:25,600
Speaker 1: So so there's a variety of reasons and several of

1600
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:27,880
Speaker 1: the experts who we sent that paper to agreed that

1601
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:30,040
Speaker 1: it probably was made in Mexico, which is kind of cool.

1602
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 1: Who knows whether they made it specifically for this uh

1603
01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:36,960
Speaker 1: expedition or whether it was one of the ones that

1604
01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 1: Cortez had. It certainly would have been. Would not have

1605
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: been a Columbus one, because his were iron as far

1606
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 1: as we know. Man. Yeah, the oldest, you know, even though, yeah,

1607
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: I said like gun, the oldest firearm whatever. We were

1608
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:54,200
Speaker 1: trying to mix up the words, because you can only

1609
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: use cannon or law that are hacked but so many times.

1610
01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 1: But like the oldest gone found in the continental us

1611
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,800
Speaker 1: and it's certainly the oldest bronze one. Uh, and it's

1612
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: the only one from the CORNADO expedition. I mean it's

1613
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:11,640
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal, it's pretty cool. Uh. We called it our

1614
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 1: trophy for a while so we didn't have to tell

1615
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 1: people what it was. Uh. You know, we're keeping it

1616
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: secret for a while so it really is our trophy artifact.

1617
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,920
Speaker 1: There's UH, it's it's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah,

1618
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:24,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of better than a helmet and a breastplate too,

1619
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:27,680
Speaker 1: we decided. So have you found some of those? No,

1620
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:30,599
Speaker 1: but we have found pieces of armor off those. And

1621
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:34,000
Speaker 1: then there's two people in the area who found helmets,

1622
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 1: one of which has disappeared once again, is collected and

1623
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 1: is probably thrown away now, and the other one. I

1624
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:41,280
Speaker 1: went up to talk to the guy and he was

1625
01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:43,439
Speaker 1: so secretive he wouldn't show it to me. So I'M

1626
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: gonna hopefully get a neighbor to go with me and

1627
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 1: and we'll talk him into how does he those are

1628
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:54,639
Speaker 1: probably traded right among the tribes. Well, here's the interesting thing.

1629
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 1: Given that there was a battle there and many people

1630
01:35:57,400 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 1: were killed and then everybody else dispersed, I sus bact

1631
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: some were stashed in structures that the natives took somewhere,

1632
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 1: possibly buried, because that's how you did things when you

1633
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 1: wanted to store things at that time. You pretty much

1634
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 1: buried them if they are a value and they might

1635
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:14,320
Speaker 1: have gotten dug up later. Um. In other cases, the

1636
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 1: natives killed some Spaniards and probably took them in. So

1637
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 1: some of them might have been uh ritually or ceremonially cashed.

1638
01:36:21,400 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: Some might have been destroyed uh in in retaliation, Um,

1639
01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:28,679
Speaker 1: some might have been traded to other people. There are

1640
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 1: pieces of armor reported all around, some which occur in

1641
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:37,800
Speaker 1: the Apache area and Hacoma area, other natives of the time.

1642
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:40,599
Speaker 1: So I suspect that they were in fact traded all

1643
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,719
Speaker 1: over the place Um, and ended up, you know, across

1644
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: the landscape. That's why we have a halo of stuff

1645
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:50,439
Speaker 1: around our site. Are you familiar with are you familiar with, Um,

1646
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:53,320
Speaker 1: that Charlton has the movie called the mountain men? I

1647
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 1: should be in this. They go uh, it sort of

1648
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 1: takes place as the beaver getting diminished. Charlton Heston and

1649
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:04,679
Speaker 1: his mountain man trapping partner go to a chief named

1650
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,120
Speaker 1: iron belly who is supposed to be passing along to

1651
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:10,400
Speaker 1: them a hot tip about where there's still a lot

1652
01:37:10,439 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 1: of beaver left. And he is wearing Spanish armor, and

1653
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:18,439
Speaker 1: that's kind of like a plot point. The iron belly

1654
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,720
Speaker 1: has like old Spanish armor, and so it sort of

1655
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:25,920
Speaker 1: lodes this way that stuff from that era was traded

1656
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:29,080
Speaker 1: around and it's being like up in Wyoming but I

1657
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 1: have a very hot tip for you, though. When you

1658
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:33,879
Speaker 1: talk about the stat that there could be a stash

1659
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:37,400
Speaker 1: of corneto helmets or whatever, do you know there's a

1660
01:37:37,479 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: rumor that after the battle of little big Horn, a

1661
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:44,280
Speaker 1: bunch of the stuff, a bunch of the custer expedition stuff,

1662
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 1: was stashed in the cave cool and somebody found it

1663
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago. Now, supposedly there's like a cash

1664
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 1: and some people have seen it or not, of like

1665
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:02,439
Speaker 1: stuff that was like pulled off of the custer's command

1666
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 1: and buried in a cave nearby. Well, you know, I

1667
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,439
Speaker 1: will say that, Um, if, if I hear all kinds

1668
01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:12,320
Speaker 1: of stories like this. In fact, I actually have some

1669
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:14,600
Speaker 1: people call me up and then I questioned them a

1670
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:16,560
Speaker 1: little bit and then they get a rate that I

1671
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 1: won't do the research for them or go out and

1672
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:21,200
Speaker 1: find it for them. Uh. The latest one is some

1673
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: uh supposed gold bars found up in the superstition mountains

1674
01:38:26,040 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 1: that are actually quite sizeable and you can tell that

1675
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:31,519
Speaker 1: they're painted gold and the earth around it is disturbed.

1676
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:33,720
Speaker 1: I showed my brother, who's also an archaeologist, and I

1677
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 1: go look at this and he laughed. They're clearly not

1678
01:38:36,479 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 1: gold bars. They're not. They don't even look like gold

1679
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:40,800
Speaker 1: bars from that period. And and you can tell as

1680
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 1: an archaeologist that the ground looks like a garden. You know,

1681
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 1: it's all disturbed. And he's telling me all these other

1682
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 1: things and trying to get me to be his P

1683
01:38:48,240 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 1: I for some research project. And it's like, Oh, you

1684
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:53,120
Speaker 1: don't even need to do any work. And he doesn't understand.

1685
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 1: I don't just pass my authority around like that. It's

1686
01:38:57,600 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be your P I, I'm going

1687
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,960
Speaker 1: to do the work right. It's my reputation on the line.

1688
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 1: So but anyway, I get requests all the time of

1689
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:09,920
Speaker 1: people lost, Dutchman mine gold, the iron door that's, you know,

1690
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 1: closing off of mine, the old Jesuit Gold, uh, paintings,

1691
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: religious paintings that have keys to where the gold is,

1692
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:19,880
Speaker 1: and all this. I mean, I get it all the

1693
01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:23,160
Speaker 1: time and uh, you know, you can have a share

1694
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:25,559
Speaker 1: of it or or you can't have a share of it,

1695
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 1: but I'll give you this. You know what I mean.

1696
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 1: It's just like I'm surprised Dan Brown hasn't reached out

1697
01:39:31,200 --> 01:39:35,720
Speaker 1: to you to do a and do a book. But

1698
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,880
Speaker 1: do you do you actually then ever work. As you're saying,

1699
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:40,720
Speaker 1: it's like a P I for somebody. Have you've been

1700
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:43,320
Speaker 1: hired out to do a project that you have accepted

1701
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:47,519
Speaker 1: along those lines? No, not along those lines, because I

1702
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,920
Speaker 1: asked a lot of questions for I mean, I had

1703
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:54,760
Speaker 1: a professor one time who said I send all the

1704
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:57,080
Speaker 1: crack pots to you because I don't want to deal

1705
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: with them, and I said you really is that one

1706
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,000
Speaker 1: of these is going to come through one of these days.

1707
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:05,720
Speaker 1: But what I do is I talk to people and

1708
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: usually I see through the story or I asked so

1709
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:12,360
Speaker 1: many questions that they just stop. UH, stop asking and

1710
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:16,120
Speaker 1: stop communicating with me, because if I'm got to waste

1711
01:40:16,160 --> 01:40:21,160
Speaker 1: my time, I want to make sure it's real. Um,

1712
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:24,920
Speaker 1: I don't do that kind of work anymore for anybody else.

1713
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 1: The only reason I would do it for the most

1714
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 1: part is, uh, if it was of a research interest

1715
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 1: interest to me. I have a couple of projects going

1716
01:40:33,960 --> 01:40:36,920
Speaker 1: on now. One is actually paid and I retired years ago.

1717
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 1: I just sold my company and do research full time.

1718
01:40:40,400 --> 01:40:45,000
Speaker 1: I started that in my mid forties. Um. So right

1719
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: now I'm working on the communee real in the El

1720
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:50,480
Speaker 1: Paso area at Los Crusis a Passo area and interviewing

1721
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: natives about the trail that became a Spanish trail and

1722
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 1: cultural patterns and landscape and stuff, and then this coronado stuff.

1723
01:40:57,320 --> 01:41:00,439
Speaker 1: Anything I do other than Coronado distracts me from Coronado

1724
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 1: and that's all I want to do right now, and

1725
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:04,840
Speaker 1: you can tell that I'm really into what I do

1726
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 1: and so anything that takes me away from that just

1727
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,040
Speaker 1: as kind of you know, go away. I don't want

1728
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:12,240
Speaker 1: to deal with it. But if somebody calls me up

1729
01:41:12,240 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 1: and they have a legitimate fine, or if they think

1730
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:18,040
Speaker 1: they do, I treat them with respect because people are

1731
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: interested and there's a lot of people out there who

1732
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 1: have genuine interest or genuine find and I don't want

1733
01:41:23,439 --> 01:41:26,480
Speaker 1: to diminish those uh, in fact we want to incorporate

1734
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:28,880
Speaker 1: them into the record if, if they are real. But

1735
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 1: there's so many people. Uh, you know, one of the

1736
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,599
Speaker 1: questions that I got asked earlier was how did these

1737
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 1: people believe this uh wild stories about gold and stuff? Well,

1738
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,799
Speaker 1: one is because in Mexico and Central America, South America,

1739
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: excuse me, they had found gold. But the other thing

1740
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:49,960
Speaker 1: is even today you look around and people believe the

1741
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: most outrageous things. And you know, one person looks at

1742
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:56,519
Speaker 1: the evidence and says that's B S and another one

1743
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 1: looks at it and goes wow, they have images of,

1744
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:02,599
Speaker 1: you know, mountains of gold or whatever it is, and

1745
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:06,920
Speaker 1: so it's just imagine, it's just a matter of people

1746
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:11,680
Speaker 1: have always been attracted two legends. People have always been

1747
01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:14,719
Speaker 1: attracted to the goal just beyond. You know, that's why

1748
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 1: so many people play the lottery and stuff and go

1749
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 1: to the dog track or the horse track. I mean

1750
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:23,640
Speaker 1: it's this chance of winning big. What is not to

1751
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:27,080
Speaker 1: be exciting about that? I mean that's just you know,

1752
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:30,880
Speaker 1: that's why people eat lucky charms for breakfast. Here you go.

1753
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:38,400
Speaker 1: Do you feel that? If you imagine the the cannon

1754
01:42:39,439 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 1: location as a center of a circle, what is the

1755
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 1: radius that you're interested in? Like after this battle, I

1756
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:54,920
Speaker 1: mean they probably whatever, like dismembered, somebodies buried, Um, like

1757
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 1: stuff happened, right. I mean there was a lot of stuff. Well,

1758
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 1: the is a kilometer long as we understand it now.

1759
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 1: So that's UH, ten football fields, okay, and and six

1760
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:11,439
Speaker 1: of those wide, including the lookout stations. It's probably going

1761
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:13,040
Speaker 1: to be a kilometer and a half long by the

1762
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:14,840
Speaker 1: time we finished, we just had to stop because of

1763
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:20,519
Speaker 1: the heat. But uh, we have evidence of occupation and

1764
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:23,360
Speaker 1: battle throughout that area. In fact, one area we have

1765
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:25,519
Speaker 1: what they called weapons of the land. We have some

1766
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: of those, in other words what the people who weren't

1767
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:34,439
Speaker 1: shooting arquebuses and shooting crossbows were using, in other words

1768
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: what they gathered, what the natives made for them or

1769
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 1: they made themselves. So we have these different areas. We

1770
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 1: can see the Spaniards being chased across the landscape, we

1771
01:43:43,200 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 1: can see them battle, moving and so on. Um, so

1772
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:49,559
Speaker 1: I forget what your question was. I'm sorry. How big

1773
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:51,320
Speaker 1: of an area? I was asked like how big of

1774
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:57,280
Speaker 1: an area, because they're like stuff's gotta be there, there

1775
01:43:57,360 --> 01:44:02,040
Speaker 1: is stuff there, right. But well, like I said, we're

1776
01:44:02,040 --> 01:44:06,760
Speaker 1: not looking for bodies right now. Yeah, so that's a

1777
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:10,519
Speaker 1: whole different approach, right. You can't metal detect form. Well,

1778
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,400
Speaker 1: if they have knives in them and so on, you could,

1779
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:16,120
Speaker 1: but no remembers. You saying if you find a body,

1780
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: it's kind of yeah, I'll go down there and take

1781
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 1: a look. Where's this place? Where's this place again? It's

1782
01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:31,559
Speaker 1: in South America, Patagonia, down there. Um, but how many

1783
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,439
Speaker 1: years will you spend there? You think, UM, probably five.

1784
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:36,760
Speaker 1: And the reason I say five, I've been saying that

1785
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,160
Speaker 1: since the beginning, is because it's going to take a lot.

1786
01:44:39,240 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 1: We're only about half done metal detecting. Plus, we in

1787
01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:44,760
Speaker 1: the part that we know about and then we got

1788
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:46,280
Speaker 1: to expand it to the north and south. I think

1789
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:49,559
Speaker 1: it does go further. Uh. Plus, I want to keep

1790
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:52,040
Speaker 1: digging this and a few other structures, but we want

1791
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:54,000
Speaker 1: to leave some in place and I think they're about

1792
01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:56,920
Speaker 1: five years. That's enough damage, because what we do is

1793
01:44:57,000 --> 01:45:00,080
Speaker 1: archaeologists damages the site. Whether we like to think that

1794
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:02,479
Speaker 1: way or not, we know it does. I'm taking things

1795
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:05,120
Speaker 1: out of context. What I'm doing is I'm putting markers

1796
01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 1: down and, uh, using a global positioning system unit to

1797
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:12,080
Speaker 1: mark where they're at so we can know exactly where

1798
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 1: they came from. And then the whole thing is gritted

1799
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:18,560
Speaker 1: and stuff. Now, not the whole thing, but where we're digging. So, Um,

1800
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:21,800
Speaker 1: what my goal is is to drive just enough information

1801
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: that I can convince all reasonable people, and maybe even

1802
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,599
Speaker 1: some of the serious skeptics, that we actually have the

1803
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:32,960
Speaker 1: town site of San Hieronimo three, that it's actually a

1804
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 1: place where they built structures, where a lot of people lived,

1805
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:38,960
Speaker 1: where other activities went on and so on. Uh, and

1806
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 1: then I'll stop and save it for the future. I

1807
01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:43,320
Speaker 1: want to I want to explain to listeners a little

1808
01:45:43,320 --> 01:45:45,000
Speaker 1: bit of what you're talking about by saving it for

1809
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:49,519
Speaker 1: the future. And it's just an archaeological site that I'm

1810
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 1: kind of the only one I have any real level of,

1811
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, Armchair Authority on. would be when the folsome

1812
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:03,759
Speaker 1: site where they found it was kind of the smoking

1813
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:08,000
Speaker 1: gun of humans in America during the Ice Age, where

1814
01:46:08,040 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 1: they found Bison skeletons intermixed with projectile points. When they

1815
01:46:13,760 --> 01:46:16,400
Speaker 1: originally dug it, they were just looking for big ship

1816
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:21,599
Speaker 1: they're looking for big bones. Later people had to go back,

1817
01:46:22,040 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 1: archaeologists later went back and had to go sift their

1818
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:29,600
Speaker 1: debris pile for all the stuff they didn't think to

1819
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:35,320
Speaker 1: look for, which is really helpful. Like no one thought pollen, right,

1820
01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:37,880
Speaker 1: no one thought about just like small chunks of wood,

1821
01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:43,040
Speaker 1: little bits of charcoal, whatever else. And then later, like now, right,

1822
01:46:43,080 --> 01:46:44,680
Speaker 1: they have this idea that, man, if we could have

1823
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:51,880
Speaker 1: just found the sort of plant matter mixed in with

1824
01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:53,879
Speaker 1: that stuff, it tell you something like what the climate

1825
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,200
Speaker 1: was like you know, timey year stuff and all that.

1826
01:46:57,720 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 1: So I like like when you say like save something

1827
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:02,000
Speaker 1: like who knows, and in a hundred years you might

1828
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,000
Speaker 1: go and take a little dirt and run it through

1829
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 1: some machine and it will be like no, there's a

1830
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 1: women here. That's exactly my point. We cannot predict what

1831
01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:11,280
Speaker 1: future technologies are going to be able to tell us,

1832
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: what the future analyses are going to be able to

1833
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 1: tell us, and that's what we have to be cognizant of.

1834
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:19,800
Speaker 1: I'm collecting as much data as I can. Well, you know,

1835
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: like I said, this is the only coronado structure that

1836
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:24,680
Speaker 1: we know of that has a cannon in it. So

1837
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:26,760
Speaker 1: I have a responsibility there. Now I would only dig

1838
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:28,960
Speaker 1: half of it if I could figure the structure out

1839
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 1: without digging the whole thing, but I need to dig

1840
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 1: the whole thing, unfortunately, and I'm going to dig some

1841
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:36,240
Speaker 1: others that are associated with it, but for the most

1842
01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:38,240
Speaker 1: part the town site is going to remain intact so

1843
01:47:38,280 --> 01:47:42,200
Speaker 1: that some other professional can come and ask new questions, uh,

1844
01:47:42,439 --> 01:47:46,719
Speaker 1: using new technologies, new types of analyzes, and answer questions

1845
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 1: that I can't even fathom right now. But in terms

1846
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 1: of you demonstrating like hey, this is something that needs

1847
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:59,200
Speaker 1: to be paid attention to and needs to be protected.

1848
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean you gotta be Oh, we're there. I was

1849
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:04,800
Speaker 1: there basically the first day. I mean, you know, the

1850
01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:07,719
Speaker 1: first first day we had like a half a dozen

1851
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 1: of the gabled headed nails, and then the second day

1852
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 1: we had a crossbow bolt head with many more of

1853
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 1: them and other artifacts, and then it just kept building.

1854
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:16,680
Speaker 1: And so we knew we had coronado. At that time

1855
01:48:16,720 --> 01:48:18,680
Speaker 1: I thought it was just an encampment and then it

1856
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 1: got bigger and bigger. So even if it was just

1857
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:22,919
Speaker 1: an encampment with just those things, that would be important

1858
01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:25,240
Speaker 1: because none had been found in Arizona. None had been

1859
01:48:25,240 --> 01:48:29,840
Speaker 1: found in the fift miles between Compostella and Zuni. Right.

1860
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:33,320
Speaker 1: So Uh. So, in and of itself that was important.

1861
01:48:33,400 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 1: And then after a while it's I tried to explain

1862
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:38,519
Speaker 1: the battle ofvience away other ways, because that's what I'm

1863
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,040
Speaker 1: supposed to do as an archaeologists consider all of the

1864
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:44,960
Speaker 1: possible explanations for what I'm finding, and finally I had

1865
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,719
Speaker 1: to settle on the battle. And then once we figured

1866
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:49,720
Speaker 1: out it was a battle site, then I started back

1867
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:52,799
Speaker 1: checking through the records, recognizing that maybe not all battles

1868
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:55,160
Speaker 1: were accounted for in the documents because they weren't supposed

1869
01:48:55,160 --> 01:48:58,599
Speaker 1: to be fighting the natives. But it started making sense

1870
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:01,759
Speaker 1: with it being sent heronomous. So I don't think anybody

1871
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 1: who's actually heard the data, seeing the data and so on,

1872
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 1: and we've had lots of archaeologists and historians of the site,

1873
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't think they questioned that at Suya in the

1874
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 1: Siuja Valley, send heronimo three in the Suja Valley. I

1875
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:15,080
Speaker 1: think the questions are is um whether it was an

1876
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:19,080
Speaker 1: actual official town site, because that was a contractual thing

1877
01:49:19,479 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 1: with the king, and I'm arguing that. I think there's

1878
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 1: enough evidence in the documentary reacted to say that there

1879
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 1: that it was. And then the other thing that some

1880
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,360
Speaker 1: of the people are disputing is the way the route went. Well,

1881
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:33,840
Speaker 1: I have four sights and they line up West East.

1882
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:37,320
Speaker 1: At this point I'm trying to check other possibilities, but

1883
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 1: right now that's what it's suggesting, which might suggest a

1884
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:43,680
Speaker 1: route that's a little further west, even in in Sonora.

1885
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:48,600
Speaker 1: But that the reason I object to everybody insisting that

1886
01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 1: it goes up the Sonora and then down the San

1887
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:53,720
Speaker 1: Pedro and it has to be that with a sidetrack

1888
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:56,760
Speaker 1: is because that's what everybody's thought and they haven't found

1889
01:49:56,760 --> 01:49:59,799
Speaker 1: any evidence of Coronado. And here I found evidence Coronado

1890
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:03,920
Speaker 1: Becau has. I haven't accepted that as God's turn. Yeah,

1891
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:11,040
Speaker 1: you thought that's not the route. Yeah, that's kind of

1892
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:13,599
Speaker 1: my point. That's how we archaeologists constructive and they think

1893
01:50:13,640 --> 01:50:15,320
Speaker 1: it's a side route. I said, well, did you find

1894
01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:18,760
Speaker 1: the evidence there? So I'm trying to check. I'd love

1895
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 1: to see the main route. Yeah, exactly, but I mean

1896
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 1: that's the whole point here. Is the thing that irritates

1897
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:27,400
Speaker 1: me about that is they keep trying to pull me

1898
01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:29,519
Speaker 1: back into the Rut of old thinking, and the only

1899
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 1: reason I'm finding this is I'm thinking outside the box.

1900
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm considering all other possibilities that I can think

1901
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:38,479
Speaker 1: of and as I search and find things, the new

1902
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:40,920
Speaker 1: possibilities come to mind and I check those out. So

1903
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:43,080
Speaker 1: if they keep trying to pull me back into the

1904
01:50:43,680 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, it has to be Sonora River and it

1905
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:48,320
Speaker 1: has to be San Pedro, then I start thinking like

1906
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 1: everybody's been thinking and I need to think. Okay, I've

1907
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 1: got four sites, how do I connect them? I have

1908
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,360
Speaker 1: a fifth artifact that needs to somehow come into that,

1909
01:50:56,400 --> 01:50:59,800
Speaker 1: plus this halo of things. How would those fit together? Well,

1910
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:02,400
Speaker 1: trying to connect the two on the West to the

1911
01:51:02,479 --> 01:51:05,519
Speaker 1: two on the east, on the southeast. Is that one

1912
01:51:05,520 --> 01:51:07,719
Speaker 1: trail or do we have two trails or more trails?

1913
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:10,640
Speaker 1: You know, the funny thing about this rock art that

1914
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:13,080
Speaker 1: I brought up earlier is there's a signature on the

1915
01:51:13,080 --> 01:51:15,519
Speaker 1: side of the Rock and it looks it's scratched in

1916
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 1: and it looks like it says t o b a

1917
01:51:17,320 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 1: R and that was one of the captain, one of

1918
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:27,240
Speaker 1: the lieutenants, uh, Pedro Da Tovar, and uh, I think

1919
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:29,800
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to know this. How does one

1920
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:33,840
Speaker 1: date stuff it scratched into a rock? You don't. I

1921
01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:37,800
Speaker 1: mean if it's scratched in. Basically, on the rock art

1922
01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:39,400
Speaker 1: that I showed you can see that some of it

1923
01:51:39,479 --> 01:51:42,839
Speaker 1: is older than others because some has regained some weathering

1924
01:51:42,920 --> 01:51:46,280
Speaker 1: on it right. So if you have one rock you

1925
01:51:46,320 --> 01:51:49,960
Speaker 1: can tell by some is older because it's more weather

1926
01:51:50,240 --> 01:51:53,599
Speaker 1: and some is fresher. Some of it overlies older stuff.

1927
01:51:53,640 --> 01:51:56,759
Speaker 1: So that's one way. It's all relative dating. But also,

1928
01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:00,680
Speaker 1: as I was kind of discussing earlier, uh, if you

1929
01:52:01,200 --> 01:52:08,480
Speaker 1: analyze this rock art in relation to a codex from Cortes,

1930
01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 1: the Cortes period in Mexico, you can see that the dress, shoes,

1931
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 1: hat and everything is just like what cortes is wearing

1932
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 1: in one of the images. So Um. So basically that's

1933
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:24,400
Speaker 1: another way to data as well. Now, that's not going

1934
01:52:24,439 --> 01:52:26,400
Speaker 1: to convince everybody, and not everybody is going to be

1935
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:30,759
Speaker 1: convinced that the signature says Tobar. There's also a cross

1936
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:33,800
Speaker 1: above it, which is what Spaniards did when they were

1937
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,960
Speaker 1: signing their name and documents and writing documents on paper.

1938
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 1: So I mean, if we just had that, then I'd

1939
01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:44,840
Speaker 1: say maybe some natives saw that, saw the expedition in

1940
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 1: a different valley and carved it when they got home.

1941
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:51,519
Speaker 1: But we have coronado artifacts associated with it, uh, and

1942
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:54,120
Speaker 1: we have these clearings. So it looks like it's campsite.

1943
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:58,200
Speaker 1: Now it's possible that it's a side route or a

1944
01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:04,360
Speaker 1: second route. We know that Pedro Tovar went on other

1945
01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:08,799
Speaker 1: side trips. He took a detachment and went and discovered

1946
01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 1: other places or inspected other places and so on. People

1947
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:14,800
Speaker 1: were already there, so it wasn't discovered. But uh, so

1948
01:53:14,840 --> 01:53:16,760
Speaker 1: it's very likely that when they were coming through they

1949
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:18,760
Speaker 1: were looking for an alternate route and he may have

1950
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:21,680
Speaker 1: gone off. So it's possible. So that's the third possibility.

1951
01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:26,440
Speaker 1: We have two routes. We have a route that UH,

1952
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:29,720
Speaker 1: dips down to the southeast and connects them all, or

1953
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,639
Speaker 1: we have one route to the northeast from where we're at,

1954
01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:36,479
Speaker 1: and this is a side trip where he went to

1955
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:40,000
Speaker 1: look to see if there was gold or water. You know, uh,

1956
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:42,559
Speaker 1: we may be able to tell by the time I finish,

1957
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:44,559
Speaker 1: but at a certain point I'm going to stop looking

1958
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:46,160
Speaker 1: and somebody else is gonna have to fill in and

1959
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:48,080
Speaker 1: I get to tell the story I the way I want,

1960
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:50,000
Speaker 1: if I'm the one looking for the sites and finding them.

1961
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 1: Will you stay on? Will you stay on Coronado till

1962
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 1: you die, or you think you'll get onto something, get

1963
01:53:55,840 --> 01:53:58,080
Speaker 1: onto something else? Well, I'm planning to live to a

1964
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:00,080
Speaker 1: D and twenty, so I think by the time I

1965
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:02,640
Speaker 1: get to a hundred I'm probably gonna stop looking, but

1966
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 1: you're gonna stay on the Coronado deal as long as

1967
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:07,360
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me. That's how I do things. I

1968
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:11,880
Speaker 1: don't have to do this, I do this because it's interesting.

1969
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:14,519
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at the top of my career.

1970
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:19,439
Speaker 1: I've spent all this time learning how to do this well, uh,

1971
01:54:19,479 --> 01:54:22,600
Speaker 1: and there's nothing I'd rather do in retirement. This is

1972
01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of my golf game and uh, I'm not really

1973
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:29,839
Speaker 1: especially in the Gulf. So it's my way of uh,

1974
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:35,280
Speaker 1: entertaining myself, keeping my mind engaged, staying healthy mentally when

1975
01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:37,280
Speaker 1: I'm out in the field. It keeps me healthy and

1976
01:54:37,320 --> 01:54:42,840
Speaker 1: physically it's good exercise, Um, and it's so intriguing. It's

1977
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:45,959
Speaker 1: for me. You know, the people in the Coronado expedition.

1978
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:48,320
Speaker 1: Someone went to get rich and everything, but everybody was

1979
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:51,240
Speaker 1: kind of on an adventure, which is unfortunate for the

1980
01:54:51,320 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 1: native people. That's kind of what modern tourism is like.

1981
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:57,640
Speaker 1: In a way. We kind of damage cultures as we

1982
01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:02,280
Speaker 1: go and embark on our adventures. But Um, but in

1983
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:06,200
Speaker 1: a way this is an adventure for me. I'm discovering

1984
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:09,920
Speaker 1: new things. Uh, it's every day is an adventure. I mean,

1985
01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:12,560
Speaker 1: people the crew keeps saying the site keeps giving it's

1986
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,680
Speaker 1: amazing what we thought it was and how it keeps

1987
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 1: growing and all this interesting UH knowledge and artifacts that

1988
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:22,680
Speaker 1: keep coming out that allow us to enrich the story

1989
01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:25,240
Speaker 1: and as long as it keeps doing that and as

1990
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:28,160
Speaker 1: long as people keep giving me access landowners, and as

1991
01:55:28,240 --> 01:55:29,880
Speaker 1: long as we keep finding things, and as long as

1992
01:55:29,920 --> 01:55:32,480
Speaker 1: I continue to have volunteers who are as enthusiastic and

1993
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:35,920
Speaker 1: dedicated as they are, I'll just keep doing it until

1994
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:37,640
Speaker 1: I get tired of it or I run out of money.

1995
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:40,800
Speaker 1: You know, this is all self supported, although I did

1996
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:43,879
Speaker 1: have a couple of donors recently donate to the research

1997
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:46,800
Speaker 1: part and then we've had some donors donate to the film,

1998
01:55:47,320 --> 01:55:49,720
Speaker 1: documentary film, but we need a lot more donors to

1999
01:55:49,720 --> 01:55:54,960
Speaker 1: make that happen. So tell and conclusion, tell us how

2000
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 1: you know if someone wants to volunteer or lens support, like,

2001
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:03,080
Speaker 1: how was the best way to go learn about what

2002
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:07,600
Speaker 1: you have going on, connect with you or your people. If, if,

2003
01:56:07,640 --> 01:56:09,960
Speaker 1: if someone, someone's like Hey, I got one of them

2004
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:12,440
Speaker 1: bronze hats. Well, if they have one of those, they

2005
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 1: can talk to you guys and get my phone number directly,

2006
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 1: but it's better be real, not one of those Uh

2007
01:56:20,440 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 1: tinfoil ones, Um uh. Well, I have a web page

2008
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:28,880
Speaker 1: that has some contact information on there, and the film,

2009
01:56:29,400 --> 01:56:34,120
Speaker 1: Uh documentary films by Professional Documentary Film Crew Francis Kasi

2010
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:38,360
Speaker 1: Films and uh they she has a web page. Uh

2011
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 1: and uh do you have a title for that yet

2012
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:43,840
Speaker 1: or for the film? No, we haven't decided. But we

2013
01:56:43,880 --> 01:56:47,360
Speaker 1: have cornado films ll LC, and there's ways that people

2014
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:50,200
Speaker 1: can donate to that, either directly, if they don't need

2015
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: a tax deduction, or through from the heart productions, which

2016
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 1: is a nonprofit. So you can get a tax credit

2017
01:56:59,040 --> 01:57:01,960
Speaker 1: for that. And then I have an organization that I'm

2018
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 1: working with that UH takes the money in for the

2019
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:08,839
Speaker 1: research and would take sizeable sums in or small sums

2020
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:11,600
Speaker 1: for the film, without taking anything off the top. So

2021
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:14,000
Speaker 1: there's a variety of ways to do it and I

2022
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:17,839
Speaker 1: would appreciate it because, like I said, I totally self funded,

2023
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:20,360
Speaker 1: except for these more recent donations that have coming in.

2024
01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:23,880
Speaker 1: People are really getting thrilled about what we're finding and

2025
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 1: so on. You gotta have some universities beating your door

2026
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:34,560
Speaker 1: down now. Oh No, they're jealous. Um, don't forget to

2027
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:38,360
Speaker 1: mention you have a youtube channel with some interesting like

2028
01:57:38,920 --> 01:57:41,120
Speaker 1: a little about dating, like you're asking like how do

2029
01:57:41,160 --> 01:57:45,280
Speaker 1: you know when you're looking at whatever? Just mentioned that,

2030
01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:49,080
Speaker 1: and then also your academia web page with like all

2031
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:53,080
Speaker 1: of your papers, books. I mean there's so much open

2032
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:55,680
Speaker 1: information that we could where we can go to read

2033
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:59,000
Speaker 1: your work right. So on Youtube, it's just under my name.

2034
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:00,680
Speaker 1: You can find it and there's some corn on that

2035
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 1: other stuff, D e n I, and then s e

2036
01:58:03,360 --> 01:58:06,760
Speaker 1: y m o U R, and then the academia page

2037
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:12,000
Speaker 1: the same. It's under independent UH researcher. I think. Also

2038
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 1: with research gate, same thing, although that has fewer articles.

2039
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:17,480
Speaker 1: You can download articles for free on there. You don't

2040
01:58:17,480 --> 01:58:19,760
Speaker 1: have to pay to get on UH. And then I

2041
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:21,960
Speaker 1: have a Web page that I'm just starting up. The

2042
01:58:22,040 --> 01:58:24,120
Speaker 1: old one I forgot to pay for and it's kind

2043
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 1: of a funk, so I'm starting to do Um, it

2044
01:58:27,880 --> 01:58:33,320
Speaker 1: needed to be updated anyway. Yeah, and all your listeners,

2045
01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 1: I will link to this and all of her I'll

2046
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:40,400
Speaker 1: link to all of this in the show notes and Um. Yeah,

2047
01:58:40,440 --> 01:58:42,440
Speaker 1: and the film is really what we're looking for funding

2048
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:44,440
Speaker 1: for now. I just saw a rough cut of it

2049
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:47,720
Speaker 1: the other day. Oh, it was fabulous. I was scared

2050
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:51,160
Speaker 1: because I we archaeologists like to be behind the camera,

2051
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:53,280
Speaker 1: not in front, and so I was prepared to be

2052
01:58:53,320 --> 01:58:56,400
Speaker 1: really embarrassed. They did in a phenomenal ask as a

2053
01:58:56,400 --> 01:59:01,840
Speaker 1: host seriously because you care, but not too much. It's

2054
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:07,320
Speaker 1: like a sweet spot. Well, thank you, I've got I've

2055
01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:09,280
Speaker 1: got one more last question. It might be the most

2056
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:12,160
Speaker 1: important one, to be honest. I mean in the film

2057
01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:16,640
Speaker 1: Indiana Jones and the last crusade, that movie opens with

2058
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:20,680
Speaker 1: River Phoenix as a young Indiana Jones, stumbling onto some

2059
01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:23,720
Speaker 1: grave robbers, if you want to call him that, finding

2060
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:26,280
Speaker 1: a crucifix from the Coronado Expedition, and then he has

2061
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:28,480
Speaker 1: to he tries to protect it and escapes. I'm just

2062
01:59:28,520 --> 01:59:31,760
Speaker 1: wondering if you two have ever, uh, protected any of

2063
01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:35,080
Speaker 1: your fines by by jumping onto a passing circus train

2064
01:59:35,200 --> 01:59:38,320
Speaker 1: and falling into a pit of snakes, leading into your

2065
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 1: lifelong phobia of snakes that will follow you over the restaurant.

2066
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:45,200
Speaker 1: I do have a lifelong phobia of rattle snakes because

2067
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:47,720
Speaker 1: I've run into probably a thousand of them since I

2068
01:59:47,760 --> 01:59:51,400
Speaker 1: was a little tiny girl. Um, I did find Coronado's

2069
01:59:51,400 --> 01:59:56,320
Speaker 1: cross on our site. One day. Two of my crew

2070
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:59,120
Speaker 1: members called me over and they had an ice chest

2071
01:59:59,200 --> 02:00:01,120
Speaker 1: right there, so I kind of knew something was up.

2072
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Metal detective and they had planted this Coronado's cross with

2073
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:14,120
Speaker 1: fake jewels on it. Yeah, so, normally we don't plant

2074
02:00:14,120 --> 02:00:16,560
Speaker 1: things like that because it can distract, you know, but

2075
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:19,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty funny. So so I wrote

2076
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:24,800
Speaker 1: to Harrison Ford asking if he would contribute, because here's

2077
02:00:24,920 --> 02:00:30,080
Speaker 1: the real, you know, real deal here. Uh, and I

2078
02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:32,840
Speaker 1: never heard back from his agent. But Um, if you're

2079
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:36,680
Speaker 1: out there, you know we need funding for the film.

2080
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:40,680
Speaker 1: We have an Emmy Award winning director, uh, and so on.

2081
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:44,960
Speaker 1: So that's great. Yeah, so look forward to seeing it. Yeah,

2082
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:48,680
Speaker 1: me too. Good luck. Thank you. Thanks for having me

2083
02:00:49,920 --> 02:00:53,080
Speaker 1: stay in touch with Karin. So you know, we can

2084
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 1: have like an update in a year or two. Sure. Yeah, absolutely,

2085
02:00:56,680 --> 02:01:01,560
Speaker 1: and then maybe, uh, if Steve decide to not claim

2086
02:01:01,720 --> 02:01:06,120
Speaker 1: artifacts from mother dig sides, you can go volunteer with

2087
02:01:06,240 --> 02:01:13,720
Speaker 1: Danny and satisfier, like an antiquities looter. We checked. It's like,

2088
02:01:13,720 --> 02:01:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, some people have like a devil and a angel.

2089
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:19,280
Speaker 1: I got like an antiquities looter on one shoulder and

2090
02:01:19,440 --> 02:01:25,720
Speaker 1: archeology and I got two dragons here gone and snakes,

2091
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 1: none of that. None of that. Well, thanks. Yeah, there's

2092
02:01:30,240 --> 02:01:33,720
Speaker 1: so much coming. I hope some people reach out and

2093
02:01:33,760 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: they might have a hot tip, because I could I

2094
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:38,760
Speaker 1: could picture some dude out hunting antelope or desert big

2095
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:40,400
Speaker 1: horns and he'd be like, you know, I've seen something

2096
02:01:40,400 --> 02:01:42,880
Speaker 1: like that one time. Well, we'll name the side after

2097
02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:46,600
Speaker 1: somebody if they come forward with something, an expedition. In fact,

2098
02:01:46,640 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 1: I've already promised that to one guy who you're sweeting

2099
02:01:49,320 --> 02:01:52,160
Speaker 1: the deal. You don't get to keep it, put on

2100
02:01:52,200 --> 02:01:56,160
Speaker 1: your mantle, but on the map it will be. Well.

2101
02:01:56,240 --> 02:01:58,200
Speaker 1: If they found it on private land, they do get

2102
02:01:58,240 --> 02:02:00,960
Speaker 1: to keep it, but we'd hope that if they realize

2103
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,960
Speaker 1: what it is, that upon their death or sooner, they

2104
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:07,760
Speaker 1: would agree to put it somewhere where it can be available,

2105
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:12,760
Speaker 1: you know. So everybody keep your eyes peeled. Brass helmets, cannons,

2106
02:02:13,320 --> 02:02:18,600
Speaker 1: crosses with jewels, the jeweling crossed cross. If you find that,

2107
02:02:18,760 --> 02:02:23,520
Speaker 1: Danny Seymour as the person you talk to, not Indiana Jones.

2108
02:02:24,120 --> 02:02:42,760
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone,