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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Tuesday, December thirtieth. The new

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Speaker 1: year is almost upon us, and listen. Our team is

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Speaker 1: taking a little time off for the holidays, but we

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Speaker 1: wanted to revisit our most favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: We really hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,

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Speaker 3: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 3: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Monday, October sixth, and guess what.

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Speaker 1: We have a stacked night of headlines. Guys, the news

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Speaker 1: has been off the chains today. Before we go any further,

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Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KT Studios, where

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Speaker 1: we make true crime podcasts like The Idaho Massacre Season

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Speaker 1: three out now and in Cells also on iHeart right now,

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Speaker 1: and documentaries and I get to be here every single

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Speaker 1: night with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven. The band is together.

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Speaker 1: We have a stacked night of headlines tonight and some

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Speaker 1: very special guests, so listen.

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Speaker 2: We haven't really been able to talk about this since.

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Speaker 1: Friday, big decision in did he get fifty months behind

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Speaker 1: bars federal prison? So where is still being decided? But

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Speaker 1: you know, time served, et cetera. We're going to unpack that.

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Speaker 1: We have secret Service Sam with us directly. He's been

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Speaker 1: following this case since day one. I have also been

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Speaker 1: following him since day one.

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Speaker 2: Really, you've been talking about him a lot.

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Speaker 1: I have, I have, And he is here. He's here,

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Speaker 1: He's here. There's so much to discuss there, you know.

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Speaker 1: Top of line though, just worth noting Judge Submarinean he

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Speaker 1: said it best, you know, he had to give this

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Speaker 1: judgment and I quote so he could let abusers and

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Speaker 1: victims alike know that the exploitation and violence against women

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Speaker 1: is met with real accountability.

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Speaker 2: So there's so much to discuss there.

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Speaker 1: Also, you know, on this same note but different, the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court has declined to hear Gilain Maxwell's you know,

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Speaker 1: plea to get an appeal. Will she get a pardon?

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Speaker 1: I guess that's the next big question and a story

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Speaker 1: that we actually can't believe is real, but it is

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Speaker 1: once again in the sex trafficking of it all, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have been following this very

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Speaker 1: scary story about Howard Rubin. He's a retired New York

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Speaker 1: financier and his assistant, Jennifer Powers. They've also been indicted

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Speaker 1: major sex trafficking ring allegedly allegedly allegedly what is happening

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Speaker 1: in the world. And then later in the show, we

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Speaker 1: have Honor Powell, our producer and the great journalist. He's

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Speaker 1: also pure kt family. He's also been hard at work

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Speaker 1: working on our podcast Insects and is going to break

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Speaker 1: down all kinds of scary things on that front as well.

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Speaker 2: So, ladies, that's what a nice We're going to start Diddy.

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Speaker 4: We have to start with Ditty again at the beginning

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Speaker 4: because this goes back to Friday and we haven't spoken

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Speaker 4: about it, so just to encapsulate, Shaan didty Combs. He

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Speaker 4: was sentenced to fifty months in prison, He was fined

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Speaker 4: five hundred thousand dollars and he has been ordered to

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Speaker 4: serve five years of supervised release for transporting women to

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Speaker 4: engage in prostitutions. And this was during his orchestrated freak

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Speaker 4: offs that we've all spoken so much about and joining

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Speaker 4: us tonight to discuss the latest is journalist and comedian

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Speaker 4: Samson Krupin. He has known to millions online as Secret

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Speaker 4: Service Sam. He is the host of the hit YouTube

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Speaker 4: show Samson's World. He delivers sharp daily commentary celebrity trials,

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Speaker 4: culture and justice, and he has been diligently following the

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Speaker 4: Ditty trial.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Sam, Welcome.

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Speaker 5: Sam, Hello, Hello, Thank you guys so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: What a road this must have been. We know that

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Speaker 1: you were just in New York. You're always traveling there

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Speaker 1: to be there at the courthouse. I mean, now that

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Speaker 1: you've had a couple of days to process, what's your

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Speaker 1: immediate takeaway?

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Speaker 5: Well, it was interesting when I was sitting inside the

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Speaker 5: courtroom and we heard them say fifty months, you know,

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Speaker 5: Judge Supermannian was like kind of freaking everybody out because,

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Speaker 5: for I think everybody going into it, Diddy's team thought

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Speaker 5: that he would get time served and maybe walk out

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Speaker 5: of the courtroom that very day. And so when the

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Speaker 5: judge said we need to make an example of these

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Speaker 5: heinous crimes, and he's like, this is a very serious

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Speaker 5: this prime requires a very serious sentence, and we were like,

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Speaker 5: oh my god, like.

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Speaker 6: Is he going to go the full twenty is he

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Speaker 6: going to go eleven?

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Speaker 5: And then he said the probation had suggested sixty months,

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Speaker 5: and so when he chose fifty months, you know, five

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Speaker 5: years sounded like a lot to everybody in that room.

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Speaker 5: But then once we came out and people start to say,

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Speaker 5: subtract his time served, subtract his free Diddy game seminars

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Speaker 5: that he does that he's only really looking at like

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Speaker 5: a year and a half. And then I don't know

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Speaker 5: if you guys heard today, but Donald Trump just said

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Speaker 5: about well he was talking about just Laine Maxwell. But

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Speaker 5: then he said, yeah, I have a lot of people

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Speaker 5: have asked me for pardons. They call him puff Daddy,

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Speaker 5: and he's asked me for a pardon. So like puff

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Speaker 5: you know, I know they are hitting up Trump right

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Speaker 5: now to get a part in because they're just like,

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Speaker 5: you know.

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Speaker 1: Big time by wait, it might happen, right, that's a

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Speaker 1: very very reasonable thing.

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Speaker 6: It yeah, us mean coins, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he didn't say no, Like, he didn't shut

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Speaker 1: it down either. So just coming off of the moment

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Speaker 1: when we finally have somebody who was standing up for

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Speaker 1: you know, bad behavior, and we can kind of probably

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Speaker 1: talk to nauseum about what the sentencing would have been

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Speaker 1: or what it shouldn't have been. We were all super

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Speaker 1: divided as well. We would have been very unsurprising if

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Speaker 1: he walked to that day, for sure. So I thought

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Speaker 1: it seemed fairly reasonable. Five years seemed a bit more reasonable,

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Speaker 1: just for that same reason, like somebody needs to make

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Speaker 1: an example. You just heard the headlines for today. It's

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Speaker 1: all we're talking about for sex ring after sex ring

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Speaker 1: after sex ring, very influential people, and I think that

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Speaker 1: has to be kimbashed.

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Speaker 4: I have to say, and I promise I will not

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Speaker 4: have this be some debate over what the sentencing should

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Speaker 4: have been. One thing really stuck in my craw though,

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Speaker 4: is Judge Submarinian. He said all of things like you said,

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Speaker 4: you know as you read Stephanie, and I'm victim forward

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Speaker 4: and I'm making an example. However, what he had also

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Speaker 4: said before the sentencing was that he was going to

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Speaker 4: use the Federal Sentencing Guidelines of seventy to eighty seven

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Speaker 4: months as the basis for the sentence that he would

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Speaker 4: hand down. So he said that, and that RANS represents

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Speaker 4: the judge standard for the k based on the guidelines,

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Speaker 4: so to me, and he's saying all these great, wonderful

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Speaker 4: victim forward things. He went below what he said was

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Speaker 4: going to be his basis.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, people.

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Speaker 5: Were very surprised inside the courtroom because the way he

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Speaker 5: was talking. He's like, we have to make an example

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Speaker 5: out of you. But as he was saying, we need

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Speaker 5: to make an example, we need to send a message

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Speaker 5: to victims that if they come forward that something will

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Speaker 5: be done, justice will be served, And it was kind

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Speaker 5: of a slap on the wrist. It was like all

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Speaker 5: bark and no bite, is how some people felt about

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Speaker 5: the sentence.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and tonight today should Knight said today that this

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Speaker 7: was a win for the Diddy family. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 7: it was win basically him getting what he got because

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Speaker 7: he'll be home in a year.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean I talked to Brian Steele directly after the trial,

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Speaker 5: Miss west Moreland.

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Speaker 6: She was very sad. Brian Steele was very upset.

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Speaker 5: I said, why, you know, it seems like of a

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Speaker 5: win and he said, have you ever been in federal prison?

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Speaker 5: And I'm like no, and he's like it's a terrible place.

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Speaker 5: He's like, one day in there is one day too many.

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Speaker 5: So I think he really you know, and he was

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Speaker 5: tearing up. You know, it was surprising. I mean him

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Speaker 5: and Miss Westmoreland inside the courtroom were tearing up when

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Speaker 5: they were speaking to the judge about letting him off.

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Speaker 7: Well, he's apparently requesting to go to Fort Dix exactly right, Yeah, which.

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Speaker 1: Is a low security federal prison. It has no high walls,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have guards from towers. It has a pretty

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Speaker 1: high population, but they live in like bunks right where

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Speaker 1: there's like four and a five men in a cubby

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Speaker 1: sort of in a like a bunk, like a camp, if.

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Speaker 2: You form a federal camp.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that's not like in the park, but there's

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Speaker 1: many other playing the worst camp ever, the worst, But

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Speaker 1: we didn't go there place same. Yeah, So he may

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Speaker 1: very well be in New Jersey. And I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are more severe security places and higher security prisons that

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Speaker 1: he could be sent to.

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Speaker 2: And I guess we'll have to wait and see. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've got to wait and see on that.

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Speaker 8: Sam.

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Speaker 2: Do you think fame ultimately helped or hurt that he

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Speaker 2: in this?

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Speaker 5: I feel like it it definitely helped, because I feel

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Speaker 5: like somebody else if they weren't this famous and whatnot.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if they would have gotten away with

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Speaker 5: the rico, you know, I think, I mean maybe, I

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Speaker 5: don't know. I mean we see black men all the

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Speaker 5: time have the innocent and thrown in jail for years.

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Speaker 5: So if you strip away the fame, especially if you

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Speaker 5: strip away the money, then yeah, of course. But the

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Speaker 5: fact that he had ten million dollars per lawyer, he

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Speaker 5: probably spent about one hundred million dollars on lawyers, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not surprising he got off. But yes, I think

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Speaker 5: fame played a very big part in it, especially for

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Speaker 5: the jury, you know, because nobody wants to you know,

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Speaker 5: you don't want to hate your hero, you know, And

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Speaker 5: so I I think him being famous where even when

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Speaker 5: I was inside the courtroom, you know, and you'd see

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Speaker 5: that terrible video of him and Cassie, you somehow have

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Speaker 5: sympathy for it because he looks pathetic. He's like he

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Speaker 5: would come in and give us heart emoji is say

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Speaker 5: hair and yeah, and you actually you feel sorry for

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Speaker 5: him a little bit. But then you have to remind yourself,

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Speaker 5: like he put himself here, you know, a he.

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Speaker 4: Put himself there, and listen, I was not in person,

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Speaker 4: and humanity comes out of all of us when we're

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Speaker 4: ne're human, so this is easy for.

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Speaker 2: Me to say. Also, the guy can put on a

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Speaker 2: pretty good face.

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Speaker 4: I mean the Bible seemed overkill for his gray headed character,

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Speaker 4: dressing up like mister Rogers like, it was just there

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Speaker 4: was so much put behind it. But listen, the result

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Speaker 4: was good and it evoked what it was supposed to do.

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Speaker 4: So I guess you know, job well done. Defense.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the video that he presented, which is

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Speaker 1: incredibly unusual most you know, defendants don't get to have

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Speaker 1: a video that's highly edited and produced submitted to the

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Speaker 1: judge prior to sentencing, which was a real love letter

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Speaker 1: to himself.

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Speaker 2: Yes, candidly, do you think that helped? Did that hurt?

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Speaker 2: I found it to be a bit of a turn off.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think at that point it was a bit

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Speaker 5: of a turn off. I mean, could you imagine during

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Speaker 5: the oj trial if he was allowed to play like

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Speaker 5: his highlight reel of him scoring touchdowns and him and

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Speaker 5: the naked gun and the juice and we love him

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Speaker 5: in his commercial hurts getting a car?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, hurts. I mean it's crazy.

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Speaker 5: I personally felt that each of his lawyers spoke and

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Speaker 5: I'm a comedian, so I kind of was just feeling

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Speaker 5: out the room and I'm like, everybody's going too long.

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Speaker 6: Like Jason Driscoll did great.

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Speaker 5: He cited some cases where it said the minimum sentencing

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Speaker 5: for comparable things were like fourteen to seventeen months, so

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Speaker 5: he outlined out he shouldn't get a long sentence, he

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Speaker 5: should have time served.

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Speaker 6: Then Miss west.

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Speaker 5: Moreland came up spoke about how he inspired her.

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Speaker 6: She started crying.

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Speaker 5: To be honest, it was red in the room as

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Speaker 5: a little bit. Oh wow, she's crying. It's a little much.

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Speaker 5: Some the feeling was. And then the kids came up

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Speaker 5: and they each spoke, and when the twins started speaking,

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Speaker 5: the twin girls, oh my god, it was heartbreaking because

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Speaker 5: they were like, we lost our mother. Please Judge, don't

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Speaker 5: take our father away from us. And there wasn't a

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Speaker 5: dry eye in the courtroom, I mean, and it really

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Speaker 5: pulled at you. And then they played the eleven minute video,

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Speaker 5: which I'm an editor, it was like a wedding video.

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Speaker 5: It should have been cut down to like three minutes.

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Speaker 5: I'm surprised they let them play it.

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Speaker 6: And then all the other lawyers went up and spoke.

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Speaker 5: So it was just like kicking a dead horse where

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Speaker 5: I feel like and they're like, Judge, can can can

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Speaker 5: the pastor now come up and say and Judge, we

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Speaker 5: do have somebody who an inmate on the phone who

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Speaker 5: is willing to get on speaker. And the judge I think,

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Speaker 5: I think in his head he's like, guys, I already

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Speaker 5: know how long I'm gonna sentence some too. This is

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Speaker 5: not if anything, the kids, I feel like broke through

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Speaker 5: to him where there was a moment where he's like, wow,

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Speaker 5: this is impactful. But past the kids, they were just

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Speaker 5: kicking a dead horse in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, those kids do break my heart,

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Speaker 1: you know, they really do.

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Speaker 2: They didn't ask for any of this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're so Fullno, he has many kids, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: they went their father back and I can really appreciate that,

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Speaker 1: but again, it doesn't change the crime or what he's

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Speaker 1: been accused of. Has also been really hard to come

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Speaker 1: back from. And what's the middle ground and how do

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Speaker 1: we prevent this from happening again?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I talked to Dana t the mother of

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Speaker 5: the two year old love and that was especially sad.

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Speaker 5: I was talking her outside the court building and you

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Speaker 5: know her daughter is in that video saying Daddy, I

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Speaker 5: love you, and and she was just crying outside the

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Speaker 5: court building because it's you know, like you said, it's

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Speaker 5: one thing when we're not in the courtroom, you know,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't seem real. But when you know, you see

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Speaker 5: a mother who's like her daughter really is asking when

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Speaker 5: dad is coming home, you know, a two year old,

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Speaker 5: it's heartbreaking, you know. And again he put himself there.

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Speaker 5: It's not like he was probably Dad of the Year

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Speaker 5: there every single night. But there are real people involved,

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Speaker 5: and that's something Being inside the courtroom I think I

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Speaker 5: really came to understand more.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, I mean it really is interesting. I mean

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Speaker 4: it is specific being in the courtroom. I'll definitely agree,

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Speaker 4: and you do just get it's such different feels on

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Speaker 4: different sides and everyone, like you said, they're all real people,

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Speaker 4: which even.

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Speaker 2: The defendants right there, absolutely right.

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Speaker 6: Even the witnesses.

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Speaker 5: There's so much being said about them, but to actually

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Speaker 5: hear their voice and their emotion is way different, right.

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Speaker 7: Will This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy

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Speaker 7: Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courty Armstrong

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Speaker 7: and we are joined by journalists and comedians Samson Krupin's

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Speaker 7: Secret Service Sam, as he's known, Keep it right here.

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Speaker 7: We're going to continue this conversation when we return.

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Speaker 2: Or give us a call. Eighty eight thirty one, Keep

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Speaker 2: it right here.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 1: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

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Speaker 2: As always, full moon everyone.

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Speaker 1: I hope wherever you are that the moon is bright

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Speaker 1: because we also have Secret Service Sam, who has been

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Speaker 1: doing some very diligent reporting outside the courthouse and inside

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Speaker 1: the court room throughout this Diddy fiasco, and we were

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Speaker 1: just talking about the fact that he was given fifteen months.

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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you what your thoughts are.

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Speaker 1: Join us eight eight eight three one crime. You could

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Speaker 1: always leave us a talk back as well. Download the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and then just push the little microphone icon

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Speaker 1: in the top right hand button. So listen, Sam, what

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Speaker 1: do you make of next steps? You know, where is

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Speaker 1: he going to go? He's probably not going to serve

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Speaker 1: that that much time. But will he be on his

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Speaker 1: best behavior? Do you have any more diction?

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Speaker 9: Feel?

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Speaker 10: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I think he will be on his best behavior. I mean,

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Speaker 5: they just announced he's going to Fort Dix. Like we said,

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Speaker 5: in terms of federal prisons, it sounds pretty easy because,

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Speaker 5: you know, like they were talking about inside the courtroom,

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Speaker 5: Diddy is a big mark.

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Speaker 6: You know, a lot of people it's.

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Speaker 5: Like to get him, or to beat him up, or

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Speaker 5: to shank him, or to literally get his backside. You know,

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Speaker 5: there is a prize out for that. So I believe

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Speaker 5: he will have good behavior. You know, I think he

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Speaker 5: from what I saw, and like we said, it's hard

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Speaker 5: to tell how much of an act it could be.

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Speaker 5: The mister Rogers sweaters all this, but you know, he

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Speaker 5: seems pretty miserable. I'm guessing a guy going from living

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Speaker 5: the high life on Star Island to living the low life,

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Speaker 5: he would do anything to get out of there. My

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Speaker 5: guess is his team is working very diligently to see

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Speaker 5: how much is it going to cost for a presidential pardon,

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Speaker 5: because I wouldn't be surprised now that he's been sentenced

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Speaker 5: to see Donald Trump pardon him. You know, I know

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Speaker 5: did he said some things he didn't like about him

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Speaker 5: during the campaign, But money will erase all of that

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Speaker 5: for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 6: I believe and it is how he.

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Speaker 1: Having money left? How is that possible? I feel like,

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Speaker 1: did he have spent so much money? How does he

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Speaker 1: have that much money?

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: And he got fined half a million dollars for the

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Speaker 5: two counts of prostitution.

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: You know, I feel like he's still his plane, he's

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Speaker 5: renting out like I feel like he still has all

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Speaker 5: of his businesses of kind of move. I mean, they

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Speaker 5: were saying his businesses have been destroyed, but I feel

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Speaker 5: like he's a guy like he had that his water

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Speaker 5: company with Mark Wahlberg. I don't know how much all

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Speaker 5: that is still going, but I feel like he was

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Speaker 5: so invested it in so many different places he's gotta

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Speaker 5: still have, you know. I think all his money is

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Speaker 5: like in somebody else's name.

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Speaker 4: And bad Boy Records is huge, Sean John, that is huge.

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Speaker 4: The clothes Fragrances Srah is a best seller.

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Speaker 6: Yeah's still going?

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Speaker 2: Is it really?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Sean John such a big clothing

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Speaker 1: line anymore?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: But regardless, you know, we're talking about so many payoffs

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Speaker 1: that have happened throughout the years. Now, all of the

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Speaker 1: legal bills that have happened, all the payoffs from there,

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Speaker 1: you know, yes, I don't even know what the going

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Speaker 1: rate is for a presidential pardon must be a lot.

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Speaker 7: Newsweek is reporting, though, that he did officially ask Trump

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Speaker 7: for a pardon as of four minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: You're kidding this just in this is breaking news and

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Speaker 1: evolving stories.

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Speaker 7: We did he request new Jersey prison transfer as Trump

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Speaker 7: confirms pardon from the week.

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, who knows it could have happened this week.

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Speaker 5: Trump is going to do anything to distain close Epstein files.

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Speaker 1: So have you been following much of that either, also

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Speaker 1: in your neck of the woods, you know all of

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Speaker 1: these federal cases. Delane Maxwell obviously has had her appeal dropped,

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Speaker 1: meaning she was hoping to be covered under the co

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Speaker 1: conspirator deal that Epstein had made, and looks like that's

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Speaker 1: not going to happen. But again, Trump can pardon her as.

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Speaker 6: Well, right, and I think he will. I mean I

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Speaker 6: think he's going to.

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Speaker 5: I think he's going to do whatever he can to

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Speaker 5: keep this thing away from people finding about the Epstein files.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you see Speaker Mike Johnson not certifying the

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Speaker 5: two hundred and eighteenth vote so we can open the

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Speaker 5: Epstein files. And then did you see too there was

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Speaker 5: a guy on TikTok who was threatening allegedly Yes Speaker

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Speaker 5: Mike Johnson to like release his grinder grind like if there,

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Speaker 5: I mean, he's would be the freakin's like Ma Scott

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Speaker 5: for grinder, you know what I mean, like just like

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00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 5: of closeted people like I know, alleged allegedly alleged. He

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00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,479
Speaker 5: has a kind of smarmy little you know, like I mean,

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00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 5: he just you know, he shows up and he's like, hey,

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00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 5: how wow, you're really handsome. Yeah, he's a guy to

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00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 5: guy call you handsome and you're like, hey, where did

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Speaker 5: everybody go?

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00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 6: Like I feel why am I in a corner?

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Speaker 11: Mike?

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00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 6: You know, hey, you're you're beautiful? They've ever told you that?

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00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 5: You know, Like, oh my god, get away from me.

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00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 5: I mean, he's so creepy. I just I don't know

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Speaker 5: how people can't read that more clearly.

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Speaker 7: I know it's very So you think there's a lot

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00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 7: going on, Yeah, We've been getting a lot of talk

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Speaker 7: backs and a lot of voicemails, and we're always.

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Speaker 2: Like, how do we cover this exactly?

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00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 1: But there is this intensifying feeling that there does seem

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00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 1: to be a distraction against the Epstein files. Yeah, we

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00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: cover it here a lot, and I'm so confused by it.

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Speaker 7: I kind of feel like, if if he pardons Gilaane

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00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 7: and Diddy, or let's say and or Diddy, that look

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Speaker 7: makes him look.

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Speaker 2: Soft on sexual crime.

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Speaker 7: So I would think he would stay away from that

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Speaker 7: and not pardon those two.

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Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, I mean one would think.

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Speaker 5: But I just think he wants to pardon Jizz Laine,

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Speaker 5: especially so he can get her and send her.

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Speaker 6: To some island. I say, Laine, sorry, that's.

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Speaker 2: Fine, bro, you're listening back. We're like, are we going

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Speaker 2: to get shot here?

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Speaker 9: Now?

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Speaker 1: That secret We're like hiding under the desks, my goodness.

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Speaker 1: But like, listen, it does seem like it's heating up.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's heating up on every corner.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All the cases that we're about to talk to reference

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00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: sex rings, you know. And again, my heart really does

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00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: go out so deeply to any of the victims who

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Speaker 1: came out to speak up against Diddy.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine. It's very brave of them.

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Speaker 11: To do that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, very brave.

441
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,719
Speaker 5: Well, it is how they're time about redacting the victim.

442
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 6: We need to protect the victims.

443
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 5: But then the president is calling it a hoax as

444
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 5: literal victims are speaking on Capitol Hell. You know, it's

445
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 5: like this, this crap that they want to protect victims

446
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 5: is such a cover up. They just want to protect

447
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 5: these elite you know, business, you know are you know.

448
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 5: I think the problem is is there's people on both

449
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 5: sides of the aisle that are guilty and on this list,

450
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 5: and I'd say let them all go.

451
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: You know, usual assured destruction is what they're trying to protect.

452
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 7: I think rights both sides, right, like they're both dirty.

453
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think when the Democrats had it, they

454
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 5: were like, yeah, let's not like Bill Klem's like, yeah,

455
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 5: we're never opening up and we're never talking about this.

456
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 5: And then I think the Republicans started using it as

457
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 5: a tactic to get some of their base riled up.

458
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 5: And then you see Cash Patel gets in there, Dan Bongino,

459
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 5: both those guys Conspiracy, Theoris Epstein, Epstein, they get to like, uh,

460
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 5: there's nothing to see.

461
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 6: He killed them.

462
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 5: You're like, oh wow, you guys had so much to

463
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 5: say before and now nothing, you know, and you can

464
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 5: just tell they've seen the truth and they're like, we

465
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 5: can't talk about this, Like, oh my god, I know

466
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 5: how well though you be.

467
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 6: I think it's everybody.

468
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 5: I mean, I just think there's so many powerful elite democratic,

469
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 5: you know, business people. I just think that they can't

470
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 5: afford to expose at all.

471
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 4: A pox on everyone's house, well hopefully not yours. On

472
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 4: this full moon night, this is true Crimes night. I'm Courtney.

473
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 4: I'm here with Stephanie and Body Moven and we are

474
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 4: so lucky dev journalists and comedians Samson Krupin aka Secret Service,

475
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 4: Sam Thing, We're talking Diddy, we're talking Epstein, and we

476
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 4: want to be talking to you. It at e three

477
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 4: to one crime, So Sam, there's something that I think

478
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 4: we've all been dying to ask you about. Sure, throughout

479
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 4: the trial, it seemed like there was almost a secondary

480
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 4: scene going on on outside.

481
00:23:58,720 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: What was it like there?

482
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 5: Well, outside the courtroom was, in my opinion, where the

483
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 5: real drama was happening. Because every morning I would get there,

484
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 5: I would usually at the beginning of try I would

485
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 5: hire a line sitter, but that got too expensive, so

486
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 5: I started camping out in line myself, so I would

487
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 5: have to get there you know, anywhere from two to

488
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 5: three in the morning, and most of the line sitters

489
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 5: that are holding lines for all the major legacy media

490
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 5: are kind of you know, might be homeless, might not

491
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 5: be there camping out their intents, So there's lots of fights.

492
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 5: The first morning I was there, I pull up in

493
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,239
Speaker 5: line and this guy thought I was budding line and

494
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 5: he's like, you, you know, he's cursing at me, starts

495
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 5: filming me, cursing, saying all these horrible things to me.

496
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 5: And I'm eating a breakfast sandwich. It's five am, and

497
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 5: he's like, I hope you choke on that and die.

498
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 6: Joke on your sand.

499
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 5: Was like, oh my god, I stop eating because I

500
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 5: was like, don't choke and die, Sam, don't And I

501
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 5: was like, what is your problem?

502
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 6: This guy John?

503
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 5: This was like the beginning of our relationship where we

504
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 5: were just kind of oil and water throughout the trial.

505
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 5: There was another time in the morning where John, this

506
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 5: homeless guy line stter and this guy Jimmy, who had

507
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 5: this huge two x four piece of wood. Jimmy comes

508
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 5: up to us five am again. He goes, I'm gonna

509
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 5: hit John over the head with this piece of wood.

510
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 5: Be very quiet, snitches get stitches, and I'm like, all right, dude,

511
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 5: I'm just sitting here at texting. I'm like I'm like whatever, dude.

512
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 5: He goes over starts to hit John with this big

513
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 5: piece of wood.

514
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 6: John wakes up. He's like, Jimmy, what are you doing.

515
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 5: Jimmy grabs his cell phone throws it on the ground.

516
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 5: I have all this on camera.

517
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 6: What the heck?

518
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 5: And then so John calls the police to file charges

519
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 5: on this crazy guy Jimmy who attacked him and me

520
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 5: and this other woman, Queen Amadora Shakur, another influencer, witnessed

521
00:25:59,240 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 5: the whole thing.

522
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 6: So John comes over.

523
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 5: He calls the police and he's like tell him, tell

524
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 5: him what you saw, Sam, And I was like, dude,

525
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 5: I don't want any.

526
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 6: Part of this.

527
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, first time I met you and you told me

528
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 5: to choke on my sandwich and die. I want no

529
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 5: part of this. It's five am, no John, and he goes.

530
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 5: So the cops go away. So I'm just sitting there

531
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 5: on my phone and after the cops going, John comes.

532
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 5: He grabs my phone and he goes since mine got smashed,

533
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 5: everybody's is and he smashes my phone on the ground.

534
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 5: Takes this other woman smashes hers on the ground. I

535
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 5: was like what, So then we call the police. They

536
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 5: come back. I say, well, we want to press charges,

537
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 5: and we want to file a police report because he

538
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 5: he you know, it's you know, he attacked this and everything.

539
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 5: So we file that police report. I get that police

540
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 5: report number, give it to the court buildings. So then

541
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 5: John is officially banned from the court building. So from

542
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 5: that point on, he was not ever allowed inside the

543
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 5: court building again. And then one of the last days,

544
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 5: I'm sitting there outside just exhausted, and all of a sudden,

545
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 5: John rolls up on roller blades and he's got his

546
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 5: drunk messed out buddy, and he goes serve them the papers,

547
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 5: serve them, and the guy like throws the papers and

548
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 5: they land.

549
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 6: He goes, no, no, they have to hit his body.

550
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 5: And then the guy throws papers at me and I

551
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 5: was like, get out of here.

552
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 6: What is this?

553
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 5: And later I find out he claims he's suing me

554
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 5: for one hundred million dollars.

555
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

556
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I'm just like, great, are we gonna have.

557
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 7: To go and camp out of your trial? Are we

558
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 7: gonna have to sit outside and camp out, and.

559
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 6: I hope not.

560
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 5: I asked my brother and my father, a lawyer is like,

561
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 5: and I don't think it's been filed in New York

562
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 5: that he actually did it. And then I just saw him,

563
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: like what for, like what grounds defamation? Because he had

564
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 5: threatened allegedly some women in line to do some pretty

565
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 5: awful things and people are talking about it, and I

566
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 5: had just happened to be talking about I like, John,

567
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 5: you know, you threaten all these women in line allegedly

568
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 5: all this, and so he was suing me for defamation

569
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 5: and I'm like one hundred million dollars.

570
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 6: It was like doctor Evil. I'm like, it's a lot

571
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 6: of bread.

572
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: The sandwich is.

573
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 6: So crazy, I was. I was very coy.

574
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was very happy to be done with like

575
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 5: sentencing with the court because it was just I've been

576
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 5: going back and forth between LA and New York and

577
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 5: New York is it's a certain kind of energy and

578
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 5: it's just a lot of aggressive people out there in

579
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 5: the line, so you couldn't just relax. Every single morning

580
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: there'd be a fight. And the line is like Hunger

581
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 5: Games line, like you literally just because you pay all

582
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 5: that money the last day in line, these people butt

583
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 5: ahead of me and I had to kind of fight

584
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 5: for my place in line, so I was inside the

585
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 5: courtroom on the last day.

586
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 6: I really have.

587
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: Enjoyed all of your reporting since I Yeah, really.

588
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 6: Thank you guys. That means a lot, That's what it does.

589
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 4: And man, you really paid your dues and more so,

590
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: that was not the answer I expected when I asked

591
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 4: what was going on outside?

592
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: So yeah, hopefully.

593
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: We will not be Yah, hopefully we will not be

594
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 4: following your trial. But seriously, Secret Samson Group in Secret

595
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: Service Sam, all of our thanks, all of our gratitude

596
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 4: for joining us tonight and for your coverage which we

597
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 4: have watched religiously. Everyone you can catch a show Samson's World.

598
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 4: It's streaming daily, It's on YouTube. He dives into the

599
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: biggest legal pop culture stories. He's got a trademark mix

600
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: of insight and humor, which we all got to enjoy

601
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 4: this evening.

602
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: Big thanks again to Secret Service Sam for joining us.

603
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: Somehow I had a giggle even though we were talking

604
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: about something so maddening and setting that I'd be raging

605
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: about all day.

606
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: When did you say you needed it? I really did.

607
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 7: I felt like, you know, really heavy today and obviously

608
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 7: we were talking about something very serious, but he just

609
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 7: has a way about him.

610
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: It was really I giggled and I'm happy.

611
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 4: Well, and we learned after after the break that he's

612
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 4: actually going to be if you happen to be in

613
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 4: Los Angeles. He is at the comedy is at doing

614
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 4: a comedy show this Saturday at the ice House in

615
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: La So fun.

616
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: He's so smart.

617
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 4: October eleventh, This Saturday, ice House in Los Angeles.

618
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: Smart not to bring them party down, but you know,

619
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: this Keylane Maxwell thing We're going to continue to unpack

620
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: in the.

621
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: Next hour as well.

622
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: And then also later in the show, Connor Powell, who

623
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: is an extraordinary executive producer and also journalist who's been

624
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: working with us on so many of our projects, but

625
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: also specifically on In Cells right now, and he has

626
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: some important stuff to be sharing on that front. It

627
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: all seems to kind of feed the same narrative in

628
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: some strange way.

629
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: And then yeah, this story.

630
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: That's happening in New York City, Midtown Manhattan with a

631
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: sex dungeon and very influential rich people apparently having another

632
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: sex ring. So we'll get to that as well. Let's

633
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: start with the talk back.

634
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, hey, girls, this is best. He's from Bridgeport, Illinois.

635
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 8: Enjoy your podcast. A little bit behind teacher got a

636
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 8: lot of great and do at night. Anyway, I'm thinking

637
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 8: the last could possibly been part of a sex trafficking issue.

638
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 8: I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on that.

639
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 8: Thank you and really enjoy your show.

640
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you for the compliment.

641
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about that that would track for

642
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: tonight's stories. I mean that seems to be there's sex

643
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: trafficking happening everywhere, which is also something that we never knew.

644
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: Most people were.

645
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: Not aware how many rings and sex trafficking issues there

646
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: really are happening right in front of us.

647
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: So interesting point. I mean, it's possible.

648
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 7: I don't necessarily think, you know, that is what happened,

649
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 7: of course, lesson By the way, side note, today was

650
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 7: her funeral and it looked there were photographers there and

651
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 7: it looked like a beautiful service.

652
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: She was laid to rest beautifully.

653
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 7: So you know, our blessings and thoughts are with her

654
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 7: her family which had to do this today. You know

655
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 7: it's a hard day for them. But as far as

656
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 7: the sex trafficking is concerned, I think the relationship was Listen,

657
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 7: I think it was more personal than sex trafficking would imply.

658
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 7: And I don't know what that relationship looks like, whether

659
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 7: he was a big brother or like a boyfriend or

660
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 7: you know whatnot, but I do think it was more

661
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 7: personal personally.

662
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough.

663
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 4: Fors Well, thank you again, and thank you for being

664
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: a teacher hero, you know, helping shape children.

665
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: It's a hard and important job.

666
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 6: You know.

667
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 4: You bring up an interesting point, and I think there's

668
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 4: just such a dearth of actual knowledge right now. So

669
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: could that be the case. It could be so many options.

670
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 4: We just don't know until more information comes out. It's

671
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 4: just how I feel. So you know, it will be

672
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 4: coming out more information as the investigation continues and all

673
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: of that.

674
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 7: And I think we're looking probably just for a little

675
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 7: quick update. I think we're probably looking at another three

676
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 7: to four weeks for toxicology.

677
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: Which is not unusual. That's how long it typically takes.

678
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: So even with a baby rush, and they're being so

679
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: much attention on this case, they obviously want to get

680
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: it right. So it just does take time.

681
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 7: Right because it typically takes about you know, four to

682
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 7: six weeks. And I think what in a couple of days,

683
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 7: it will have been four weeks, so we've got some.

684
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: More waiting to do.

685
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: But even for many cases we've covered, I mean I

686
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 4: can think of ones where it's eleven weeks, where it's

687
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 4: fifteen weeks, where you know that's true because Stephanie, to

688
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 4: your point, to get it right, to keep testing for

689
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: the anomalies if that's what needs to be found. You know,

690
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 4: we've spoken, particularly with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan of

691
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: this was found in toxicology. No, it's not the standard panel,

692
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: but forensically you keep digging, looking at your findings and

693
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 4: seeing what might match up. So I firmly believe everyone's

694
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: doing their job because, yeah, body, there.

695
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: Is a lot of attention on this and I want

696
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: to do it. Yeah.

697
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: Well, listen, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

698
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven. Listen,

699
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: jump in, join the convo eight eight eight three one Crime.

700
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: We're doing some talkbacks right now, so we really want

701
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: to hear from you. If you leave us one boom,

702
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 1: you'll be on the show. So let's go to another.

703
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 11: Hi, guys, it's cricket in Connecticut. I know we're digging

704
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 11: into P Diddy today and I just saw some news

705
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 11: about the original P Diddy, Jeffrey Epstein and Gillan Maxwell,

706
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 11: and Trump announced that he's considering pardoning her.

707
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: What do you think.

708
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: I'm just going to pray that we are not going

709
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: to see that happen. I really don't believe in my

710
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: heart of hearts that that will happen. I'm going to

711
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: hold out hope that we are in fact going to

712
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: have these Epstein files released, as was promised to us

713
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: by the administration leading into the election. I mean really promised,

714
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: and it wasn't really it couldn't possibly have been a

715
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: broken promise because you know, obviously Trump was in office previously,

716
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: so he would have had access to these files.

717
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 2: So we had to have known what was in them.

718
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: Why would he campaign knowing what was in them and

719
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: making a promise that.

720
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: He knew he wouldn't be able to keep.

721
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: Everybody was so confident that these files would be released,

722
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: and you know, back to Secret Services point, Secret Service

723
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: Sams's point, I should.

724
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: Say, yeah, it was. It was cash Ptel and dan Banby.

725
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: Everybody was saying it, so I'm going to really hold

726
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: out hope that that does not happen really quick.

727
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 7: Maybe I could read the exchange for the everyone listening.

728
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 7: So this happened in the Oval Office between CNN Caitlin

729
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 7: Collins and President Donald Trump. Collins pardoning Glainne Maxwell. Is

730
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 7: that something you're open to doing?

731
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: Trump? Who are we talking about?

732
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 7: Collins? Gilaine Maxwell? Trump, I haven't heard that name in

733
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 7: so long. I can say this, I'd have to look,

734
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 7: I'd have to take a look at it. I will

735
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 7: speak to the DOJ. So that's the that's the the

736
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 7: exchange that everyone is reporting on and talking about. And

737
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 7: to me, it didn't necessarily mean that he's going to

738
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 7: pardon her or that he was even you know, uh,

739
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 7: super interested. He just kind of passed it off as

740
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 7: I'll talk to the DOJ. That was my impression, And

741
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 7: maybe I'm wrong, but I don't. I don't necessarily listen.

742
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 7: I just think it would be so monumentally stupid to

743
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 7: pardon her, especially after you're holding on to the Epstein files.

744
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: I just, I just I think it's a terrible look.

745
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: But what do I know.

746
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 9: Now?

747
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: You know, up is down ups down right?

748
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 9: Now?

749
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: Was a little bit what it feels like and I'll

750
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: obviously because of the current government shutdown, sure, there's no

751
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: way to swear in our new congresswoman, who would in

752
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: fact be the two hundred and eighteenth signature. She's even

753
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: done a video saying, Hey, I am going to do it.

754
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: I just can't get sworn in. And you know, it

755
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: seems like now this shutdown is going to delay that further.

756
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: And is it all connected or am I just down

757
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole and can't get out of it?

758
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: No?

759
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 7: I just I feel like it is. But I think

760
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 7: I'm in that rabbit hole with you. I think maybe

761
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 7: Courtney might need to dig us out.

762
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know about the connection. I

763
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 4: understand the similarities. Of course, there are many themes we've

764
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 4: spoken about between Diddy and Epstein. It's men, They're influential,

765
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: they are powerful. There's money, there's a subjugation of women,

766
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: there is abuse.

767
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: Both are friends with Donald Trump. Both are friends with

768
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: Donald Trump.

769
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 4: Yes, all of these things.

770
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. It's seems different to me.

771
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 4: I don't I do not believe that Diddy and Jeffrey Ebstein,

772
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 4: to my knowledge, were hanging out and like they don't

773
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 4: trade in secrets about how to we abuse women.

774
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: But no, but it's just the idea that there were

775
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: open secrets. They also were both major open secrets. We

776
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: know this now that people in Epstein's world, both influential

777
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 1: world leaders, very important, significant people.

778
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: Knew what he was up to. They knew what he

779
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: was up to.

780
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: They gave him a sweetheart deal, he got a slap

781
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: on the risk the first time, let him out into

782
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: the wild to really harm more women. And they keep

783
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: making again this like, oh, it's underage women. I didn't

784
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: under you know, I didn't give Jeffrey any women who

785
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: were underage her words.

786
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: This is what Kayline Maxwell has said.

787
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: You any woman that you hand over you knowing full

788
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,959
Speaker 1: well that is for something nefarious that they're not aware of.

789
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: Is unbelievable to me, and it just makes me so mad.

790
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna hold out hope that the world

791
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: is going to be right side up. It's this full

792
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: moon's gonna do its magic honest tonight.

793
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 7: Maybe it's gonna give us a reset, a little bit

794
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 7: of a reset.

795
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: Put your moonwater out there and charge these crystal girls.

796
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: Let's like, you know that what we have to do?

797
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: What do we have to do.

798
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 7: You have to put an empty bowl of water out

799
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 7: on the full moon, and it the moon charges the water,

800
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 7: it makes.

801
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: It moon and then I drink it. No, you, I

802
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: don't know what you do with it.

803
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: Actually, this is getting woo woo and weird, but I

804
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 4: kind of like it, and I'm super intrigued.

805
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: If you know you drink it. I don't think you

806
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: drink it.

807
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 7: I think you put your crystals out and that also

808
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 7: charges it the moon and gives them energy.

809
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: But the moon water maybe it's like you put it

810
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: on your face. I don't know. I don't know my

811
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: face could use it.

812
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: With all this sad talk about stressful things, it's.

813
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: The moonwater. What's the next talk bag?

814
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 9: Good morning, ladies. This is Kim in Kentucky. I am

815
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 9: always a day behind, but I wanted to mention to

816
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 9: be careful with payment devices such as zell. I got scammed.

817
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 9: I sent money for item I did not receive set items.

818
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 9: Banks said it's basically considered cash, So just a little minder.

819
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 9: Not sure what other apps or payments are like Thatals.

820
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 2: You are looking at me? Good looking? Is exeuty zel

821
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: all the time? Great? I thought it was kind of

822
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 2: backed by your bank. Well it is.

823
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 7: But if if you take money out of the ATM

824
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 7: and go buy something and you get you know, with

825
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 7: cash money, and you get scammed, the bank it's already left,

826
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, Like you're in possession in

827
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 7: zell is like cash.

828
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: That's why I've used it before.

829
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 7: It's like going to the ATM and walking around with

830
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 7: twenty bucks in your hand or whatever. If you if

831
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 7: you send that to somebody to buy tickets to the

832
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 7: sports game, right, it'd be the same as if you

833
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 7: had in them twenty dollars in cash.

834
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: The bank can't help you, scam.

835
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 4: Sorry this happened to you, but I'm so glad you shared.

836
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 4: And we should honestly put this on the list for

837
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 4: a future episode of just a Scam Alert or something,

838
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 4: because that is we all use, or many of us

839
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 4: use many different apps and just what to look out

840
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 4: for or how to do the secondary safety, you know.

841
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: If it's the secondary safety is the worst though, because

842
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: you have to remember the password and then it has

843
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: to get sent to the place that you never can remember,

844
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: and then you got to reset the password and you

845
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: start from scratch.

846
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 6: Yeah.

847
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: That war like you're out your money. Yeah, or you're

848
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: at your money.

849
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 6: But what it is?

850
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: I have a good trick for passwords.

851
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 7: Really, it's a song, like, you know, I'm a Bacie

852
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 7: Boys fan. Fight for your right to party? That's a

853
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 7: that's a that's a song title, right, I just picked

854
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 7: One'll just use part of the title for your password.

855
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,479
Speaker 7: So f f hy.

856
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: Why you know what I mean? Like, fight for your

857
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: right to party?

858
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 7: And then add like you know, twenty three twenty two

859
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 7: exclamation point question mark at the end.

860
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: Oh that's a very good.

861
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 6: Yeah.

862
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: I try to outsmart myself each time and then can

863
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: never remember it, and then when I finally figure it out,

864
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: it's like, what was I even thinking in the first

865
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: Why you use the same Why would that.

866
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: Be my password?

867
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 7: You can use the same song and just take different lyrics,

868
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 7: but don't take the words from the song. Take the

869
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 7: first letter, or maybe you get it in your head

870
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 7: that you take the second letter. You know, but you

871
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 7: come up with the system and you'll never forget your password.

872
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 2: I promise.

873
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 10: That.

874
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, the most irritating thing is the password today.

875
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: It is do you do you know one? Password? The

876
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 4: number one and then password? I know I'm putting you

877
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 4: on this you do do you have knee jerk thoughts

878
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: on it?

879
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 7: I don't use it, Okay, I know, I know what

880
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 7: you're talking about.

881
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: The software that stores are not using.

882
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: You're saying, Stephanie, I do not use it, no, and

883
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: I listen to whatever body says, but I would not.

884
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: I think it is sort of scary to have all

885
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: of your passwords, whether you remember them or not, in

886
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: any aggregated one place too, just in the time of

887
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: days that we're in right now.

888
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: Also, I'm reading that chat gpt is able to store

889
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: all of your.

890
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: Conversations for infinity and they can be used against you

891
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: in the court of law should that need be.

892
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: Of course.

893
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 7: I mean, every time I love the the chat GPT,

894
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 7: I have thought all my saved or not my saved,

895
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 7: but all my previous chats, and I've got them organized

896
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 7: by folder and like, yes.

897
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we need to do like five thousand hours

898
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: of five thousand hours.

899
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 7: But I mean I only use it for like this,

900
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 7: you know, or like I'm not using it for anything crazy.

901
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 7: I'm like, create a snippet of Python code that does this.

902
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 7: But yeah, of course it could be used against you.

903
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 7: It's just like a Google search right right, that's.

904
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 2: A good point. How did that light bulb not go

905
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: on before?

906
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 4: I mean, Stephanie, how many times have we cited their

907
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: Google searches were in different documentaries?

908
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, wow, right, I mean, now I feel scared again.

909
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: I was having a giggle and now I feel don't

910
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: be scared.

911
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 4: We need the moonwater. We're gonna we're gonna start the

912
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 4: recipe and get that.

913
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: I just dunk my whole face in it, that is

914
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: for sure. So listen.

915
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: Next up, we're going to be talking about this wild

916
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: case happening in New York, also a sex trafficking ring.

917
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 2: Allegedly allegedly allegedly.

918
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: And later Connor Powell, journalist is here to talk all

919
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: things in.

920
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 2: Cells with us.

921
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: He is the greatest and a family member of Katie.

922
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: If you will, welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

923
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

924
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

925
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 2: So we got the scoop about the moonwater.

926
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 1: You leave it outside and then I guess you can

927
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: bathe in it, and you can drink it.

928
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 7: You can put on your face, you can splash water

929
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 7: on and it's supposed to give you like this lunar

930
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 7: energy that's supposed to be very calming.

931
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 4: He listen, I need that here, we all need I mean,

932
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 4: there has been these headlines have been so heavy.

933
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: What's going on is so heavy.

934
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 4: We're really we are literally reaching for the moon, like

935
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 4: what will make us any solution in a time and need.

936
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: For And you have your way to vest back on.

937
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,439
Speaker 1: I don't know where I put mine somehow, Well again,

938
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: posture is everything. Hey, it's so inspiring. Well listen, tomorrow

939
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: was talk Back Tuesday also, so be sure to be

940
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: leaving us your tokbacks. Just download the iHeartRadio app please

941
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: top right hand corner. There's a little microphone icon press

942
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: that leave us a message and boom, you'll be on

943
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: the show. Or you could also hit us up on

944
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and

945
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: TikTok or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And then

946
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: also later in the show Connor Powell, journalist and producer

947
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: and a member of the KT family. We've done a

948
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: lot of pro with Connor. He'll be with us to

949
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: talk more about in cells. So that's always going to

950
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: be a tough topic. But with a great person to

951
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: talk to about it. And this case, I mean, how.

952
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: Do we begin with this one? Where do we begin

953
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: with this next case?

954
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 4: Just lay out the fact body, it's gob smocking, but

955
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 4: let's just lay it out just how we learned about it.

956
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 7: So what we're talking about is this Howard Ruben case.

957
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 7: So Howard Rubin and his former personal assistant Jennifer Powers

958
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 7: have been federally indicted and arrested on sex trafficking, interstate

959
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 7: transportation for commercial sex acts, and related charges, with Ruben

960
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 7: detained without fail and his assistant has been released on bond.

961
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 7: So here we are again, like did he just got

962
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 7: sentenced Friday? And here we are Tuesday reading about this.

963
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 7: I'm going to tell you the story, but it's mind blowing, Okay.

964
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 7: So he is a former Wall Street financier, and he

965
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 7: has a history of unauthorized trades and a career that

966
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 7: included work for George Sorrows. And he has long faced

967
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 7: allegations from multiple women accusing him of violent sexual abuse

968
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 7: and sex trafficking. So this case centers on Ruben's operation

969
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 7: of a sex trafficking ring for the last or for

970
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 7: ten years, from two thousand and nine to twenty nineteen

971
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 7: involving the recruitment and abuse of women in a Manhattan

972
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 7: penthouse dubbed the sex dungeon with his assistant. So he

973
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 7: had this whole Manhattan apartment that was set up as

974
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 7: like a BDSM sex.

975
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: Dungeon, which is unbelievable if you see the photographs. It's

976
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: really what you would envision in a movie, right, like

977
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: it's red walled cross that people can be handcuffed to

978
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: all kinds of paraphernalia. Again, lest some of you do

979
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: behind closed doors is your thing, This doesn't seem like

980
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: it's that.

981
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 7: No, yeah, and listen to this, Okay. So there's an

982
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 7: email from twenty twelve from his assistant to him who

983
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 7: again helped her allegedly helped lure dozens of women to

984
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 7: him for abuse. She emailed him with details and here's

985
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 7: what she said. I've put chains on the four points

986
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 7: of your cross and four points of the dungeon bed.

987
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 7: On the end of each chain is a cuff. I've

988
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 7: done this because it will be very easy to just

989
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 7: throw someone on the cross or on the bed and

990
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 7: just strap them into the pre made chain and cuffs.

991
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 10: What.

992
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, And by the way, it wasn't like they

993
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: were willing participants in this, or if they were initially

994
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: because maybe they were a sex worker or or he

995
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: was offering real money or something. This got real gnarly

996
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: and they were being held captive and there were so

997
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: many complaints and they filed lawsuits against him, and and

998
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: this has been going on for a really long time

999
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: and is a pretty big open secret. And this guy

1000
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 1: was a very important successful financier in New York City

1001
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: and this apartment is right smack in the middle of

1002
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: Midtown Manhattan, and he had the second residence.

1003
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 7: He was basically threatening the victims with legal consequences, and

1004
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 7: he would make them sign non disclosure agreements and whatnot.

1005
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 7: So and you know they listen. NDAs are not They

1006
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,479
Speaker 7: very rarely hold up in court because they're way too

1007
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 7: broad and vague.

1008
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: I mean, they have to be so specific, and so

1009
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: you know if you.

1010
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 7: Don't know this, So when you sign an NDA and

1011
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 7: then something happens to you and you're like, oh my god,

1012
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 7: I got to talk about this. And then you're like, oh,

1013
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 7: you can't talk about it because you signed an NDA,

1014
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 7: and if you do, I'm going to sue you.

1015
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: Dada da whatever.

1016
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 7: You're going to be totally scared, right, You're going to course,

1017
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 7: Oh my god, I have to shut up. Well that's

1018
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 7: what happened here. And eventually it's come out and they

1019
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 7: were arrested and indicted.

1020
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 4: That it is torture again under dress and under threat

1021
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 4: of being sued if you say anything. But these women,

1022
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 4: some of them have said they were shocked or electrocuted.

1023
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 4: They were beaten, right, I mean.

1024
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: This is they needed to go to the hospital. In

1025
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: some cases they needed immediate medical care. And this messy

1026
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: allegedly allegedly allegedly assistant Jennifer Powers if in fact what

1027
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: she's being accused of is accurate. Similarly to Gilaine Maxwell,

1028
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: her job was to recruit women. In her case, she

1029
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: had to get them flight from whatever city they were

1030
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: coming from. Say it's Las Vegas or say it's you know,

1031
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, who knows. She was booking their flights, and

1032
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: then she was getting them settled. She was making sure

1033
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: that the accommodations were as is. By the way, these

1034
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,959
Speaker 1: little events also used to take place initially at some

1035
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: very high falutint New York hotels between this and the

1036
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: Diddy Hotel. Stuff like I have never looked at a

1037
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 1: hotel again the same way. These are fancy establishments as well.

1038
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: So then he decided not to be down in the

1039
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: hotel situation anymore. So this Howard Rubin then rents an apartment,

1040
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: a two bedroom apartment in Manhattan, also so expensive, dedicated

1041
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: only imagine it is so expensive and it's.

1042
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: Dedicated to this.

1043
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 7: So I mean, obviously he's very invested in this lifestyle,

1044
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 7: which okay, fine if it's consenting adult. But he prayed

1045
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 7: on vulnerable women. Why I should say they allegedly prayed

1046
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 7: on vulnerable women. You know, a lot of them were

1047
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 7: suffering from addiction and other traumas and whatnot.

1048
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: And this is who they're looking for, right, these people, Yeah,

1049
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: this is the playbook.

1050
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 4: I cannot believe that the assistant Jennifer powers that she

1051
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 4: is not being held behind bars.

1052
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 2: I know nothing has gone to court. I know everything

1053
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 2: is alleged, but you know.

1054
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 7: Well, it was an eight hundred thousand dollars bond to

1055
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 7: get out of this, so it was a significant bond.

1056
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 7: But apparently they're in trouble for other things too, not

1057
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 7: just this sex trafficking. They have other charges. I'm actually

1058
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 7: trying to find them, right now, but I had just

1059
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 7: read it. I think it's like tax evasion.

1060
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 4: It's tax evasion, yes, and it's also bank fraud and

1061
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 4: it involves undisclosed.

1062
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: Payments and incomes, so that's also that makes anse.

1063
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 4: But I don't I have to say, and this is

1064
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 4: nice coming. This is not coming from a good place,

1065
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 4: so let mean, maybe preface that. But I don't care

1066
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 4: eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I don't care if

1067
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 4: you are setting up the system in which you know

1068
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 4: people will be chained and potentially electrocuted, I don't know.

1069
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 4: Maybe it's a little bit of karma to have a

1070
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 4: little bit of chains, a little bit of handcuffs, a

1071
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 4: little bit of behind bars. If you did that for

1072
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 4: your boss, willingly.

1073
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: Thank you, Courtney Armstrong. And by the way, this is

1074
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: a married woman.

1075
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: We refer to her as an assistant, and it kind

1076
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: of implies that she's this young, unassuming girl. She's a

1077
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: woman and she has a husband and her house was

1078
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: paid for by this Howard Rubin. He apparently also came

1079
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: up on some very serious charges when he was at

1080
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: what is the name of.

1081
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: The firm Bear Sterns. Allegedly in the eighties exactly.

1082
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: By the way, bear Stearns, which is a very like

1083
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: major Wall Street bank, it was like the top firm

1084
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: back in the day. Interesting, that's where Jeffrey Epstein got

1085
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: his start as a fight.

1086
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 7: Remember the financial collapse that we all experience in like

1087
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 7: the two thousand and eight bear Stearns was like one

1088
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 7: of the cornerstones of that collapse, and so.

1089
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: Was he, you know, so bear Sterns and like, yeah,

1090
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: this whole time period. So Epstein was at bear Stearns

1091
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: in the early days. That's where he was sort of

1092
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: kicking off his big financier career. And he was therefore

1093
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 1: linked up and introduced to very prominent and high profile people.

1094
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: And then this Howard Rubin seems to be not too

1095
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: far behind him, and it's pretty astounding.

1096
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: And he was actually brought up on.

1097
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: Charges allegedly, allegedly allegedly of three hundred and seventy seven

1098
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: million dollars on a bad bet involving interest rate derivatives.

1099
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm saying that, I'm literally just reading that, so obviously

1100
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: I have no idea what the derivatives' parts means. This

1101
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: was in the late nineties, which is why he ultimately

1102
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: left that job.

1103
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 2: I wonder if they crossed mass.

1104
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: They kind of doesn't see timelines, but right after each other.

1105
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 7: Doesn't it seem I mean, minus the island and whatnot.

1106
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 7: Doesn't it seem though, like it's the same setup. Yes,

1107
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 7: this assistant. Obviously the relationship was different with Ebstein and

1108
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 7: Glen Maxwell, but it seems like the same kind of

1109
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 7: thing where the woman is used to lure other women,

1110
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 7: because again, women are safe, right, We're mothering, we're caring

1111
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 7: and nurturing, so we're the safe ones. Obviously we're not

1112
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 7: going to hurt you, right, We're not going to hurt you, darling, Like,

1113
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 7: look at me.

1114
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a professional woman. I'm just like you. Ooh yeah.

1115
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 2: And that's the same.

1116
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: Placebook the mocav part. Wonder if they knew each other.

1117
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: I think they all traveled in the same circles. Of

1118
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: course they knew each other. They had to have known

1119
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: each other, and they're running very similar operations. Again open

1120
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: secret that nobody was talking about. It seems like all

1121
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,959
Speaker 1: of these dark things are coming to light now.

1122
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, these are some dirty circles we're talking about.

1123
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 4: So we'll cleanse with moonwater later in the nights to

1124
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 4: get some of this out, but this is true crime. Tonight,

1125
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 4: we are on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney here as always with

1126
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 4: Stephanie Leideker and Body Move In. We're talking about Howard Rubin.

1127
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 4: He's the former Wall Street financier and he and his

1128
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 4: assistant have now been federally indicted on sex trafficking and

1129
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 4: interstate transportation for commercial sex acts and it's really horrendous.

1130
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 2: We want to hear your thoughts.

1131
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 4: Eighty eighty three one crime and also, gentle reminder, tomorrow

1132
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 4: is talk Back Tuesday, and we do want to hear

1133
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: from you on really anything that's in the news.

1134
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 2: Anything, If there's anything local in.

1135
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 4: Your life that you think we should be following that

1136
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 4: would be good for the show. If there's something you

1137
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 4: want us to dig into, We're really open to having

1138
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 4: you help us shape the show, which you consistently.

1139
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 7: Do, or let us know how you use moonwater or that,

1140
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 7: because I'm like dying to know.

1141
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So back to Reuben real quick.

1142
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 7: So allegations first became public through a twenty seventeen civil

1143
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 7: lawsuit filed by multiple women, including playboy models, Hugh's Reuben

1144
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 7: of sexual abuse in trafficking and from that a twenty

1145
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 7: twenty two, So it took five years. A civil jury

1146
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 7: found him liable for trafficking six women, awarding three point

1147
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 7: eight million in damages. Now she wasn't found liable. The

1148
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 7: assistant was not found liable in this civil trial. But

1149
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 7: now of course she joins him in being criminally charged.

1150
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 7: And here's what I'm wondering, and this is why I'm

1151
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 7: mentioning it. What changed She's going to turn on him?

1152
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: Do you think, of course died to save herself.

1153
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would have to assume so, because

1154
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 1: unlike the Epstein and Glaine Maxwell, and I'm guessing here,

1155
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 1: I think Elaine Maxwell had a very, very very high

1156
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: profile people in her circle, and there would have been

1157
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: a real hit on her back if she spoke up

1158
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: or if she got out of line. So it doesn't

1159
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: seem like Elaine Maxwell really ever turned on Epstein or Frankly,

1160
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: on anyone. Right until the bitter end, She's like, nope,

1161
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: they seem like great, they seemed wonderful because anybody can

1162
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: get to Gilain Maxwell.

1163
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 7: But we don't know about the secret conversation that she

1164
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 7: had with the DJ recently.

1165
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: We don't know.

1166
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: What she said the one that led her to this

1167
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: low security situation that gae Maxey finds herself.

1168
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: In right now.

1169
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: One thing I'm hoping though, the House Oversight Committee will

1170
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: also now be interviewing Elaine Maxwell I was told today,

1171
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: so that might bring up some new information maybe or

1172
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: maybe would change her living arrangements. But this Jennifer Powers,

1173
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: who is the assistant to this Howard Rubin, I'm curious,

1174
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: so curious about their relationship. Again, She's a married girl,

1175
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: she has allegedly children that have private schools that are

1176
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,919
Speaker 1: also being paid for by the funding she received from him,

1177
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: and she obviously has a lot of dirt on them,

1178
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: and she's looking at some real time federally speaking, is

1179
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: no walk in the park.

1180
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: So how long until she turns on him? I don't know.

1181
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 4: Well, here's what a special agent in charge at the

1182
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 4: IRS said, because the IRS and the FBI were working together,

1183
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 4: so paraphrasing, this was not a one man show. Ruben

1184
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 4: dehumanized these women with abhorrent sexual acts. Powers the assistant

1185
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: is alleged to have run the day to day operations

1186
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 4: and got paid generously for her efforts. So eyes are

1187
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 4: wide on her, and.

1188
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: I still always wonder if not to go backward to Diddy.

1189
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: I know we covered that in the last hour, but

1190
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: you know, we never really heard much about KK his

1191
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: personal assistant that never beenalized. I forget is not Kardashing

1192
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: and KK his assistant Christina Hosta.

1193
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: I think it was Christina.

1194
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm spacing on her last name in this exact moment,

1195
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: but that never came to be because she, much like

1196
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: this Jennifer Powers, did all the cleaning up, did all

1197
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: the arrangements, was getting the drug.

1198
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: All the things? Right? Did she turn? I don't know.

1199
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 4: Well, keep it here. We've got journalist Connor Powell. He's

1200
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 4: joining us. We will be discussing in Cells. We'll also

1201
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 4: be hearing from you. Keep it here True Crime Tonight,

1202
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 4: True Crime all the Time.

1203
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1204
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: true Crime all the Time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1205
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Body move in, and we have our Connor

1206
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: Powell back with us in the house. Connor, you'll remember, journalist, producer.

1207
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: He's worked with us on so many of our projects.

1208
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: He's currently need deep An in Cells, which has been

1209
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: a really scary and in my case, very eye opening

1210
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: project period the end, I'm apparently I knew nothing and

1211
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: thought I knew it all going into it, and suddenly

1212
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: we're in the rabbit hole and Connor is leading the

1213
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: charge right now because he's on Reddit boards. He's like,

1214
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: I will Connor, you can speak for yourself. Welcome back,

1215
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: Honor out of applause. Also extraordinary on Death Island, another

1216
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: one of our podcasts on iHeart But you know, Connor

1217
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: is just he's either somewhere important in the world in

1218
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: like a war torn area, doing very important stuff, or

1219
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: he's producing his own stuff as an executive producer and

1220
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: creating his own content and documentaries. And then once in

1221
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: the blue moon we can like drag him back the

1222
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: slummet with us, so snatch exactly. Yeah, So welcome back Connor.

1223
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 10: Thank you, thank you. I'm just wondering, are you guys

1224
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 10: taking a bill from my therapist after taking me into

1225
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 10: the in cell world the last few weeks. Is that

1226
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 10: I send it to you, Stephanie.

1227
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: Yes, you can send it to me directly, Dear Courtneyard,

1228
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm strong, Yeah, exactly.

1229
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 4: I gotta say, having been you know, Stephanie, I think

1230
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 4: you put it well when you said thought we knew

1231
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 4: something going in this has been so illuminating and honestly terrifying.

1232
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 2: And sad.

1233
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 4: It's really been every emotion when digging into this world

1234
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 4: that really it exists and people need to know.

1235
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 2: More about it.

1236
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: But Connor, why don't you tell people a little bit

1237
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 4: like what you've been doing and how you've been doing it,

1238
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 4: because you've been doing really specific work.

1239
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, So, you know, I spent the last couple of

1240
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 10: weeks sort of getting down and dirty into the in

1241
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 10: cell world. I have to admit, after the first week,

1242
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 10: what's ensure I wanted to continue it. I've never really

1243
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 10: had that experience on some of the other projects we've

1244
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 10: worked on and other things that I've done. I really

1245
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 10: did actually say to my wife after the first week,

1246
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 10: I'm like, this really isn't that much fun being this

1247
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 10: sort of deep and dark to the in cell world.

1248
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 10: And you know, you guys brought me on to sort

1249
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 10: of reach out to in cells, to find different message

1250
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 10: groups and to to try to access some of these

1251
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 10: communities online that you know are pretty closed off. They're

1252
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 10: they're they're they're not groups that want to talk to outsiders,

1253
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 10: particularly women, right, and yes, And so I spent the

1254
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 10: better part of the last sort of three to four

1255
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 10: weeks reaching out to people signing up for in cell

1256
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 10: chatboards asking permission if I can join. You know, it's

1257
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 10: funny almost all of them had sort of a question

1258
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 10: and answer requirement before you could join. Why do you

1259
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 10: want to join us? Are you an in cel?

1260
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 6: You know?

1261
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 10: You sort of had to pass their tests, and I

1262
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 10: tried to do it without lying, but at the same

1263
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 10: time not saying sort of that, you know, I was

1264
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 10: a journalist. Some of the groups I did access, like

1265
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 10: Facebook and Reddit perfectly fine. I mean, they're they're a

1266
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 10: little bit calmer of platforms, right, But the Inceell dot

1267
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 10: is or Intel dot co, you know.

1268
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 12: I think more hardcore, right, that is the hardcore site.

1269
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 12: And that was the place that I think really sort

1270
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 12: of just depressed me. It's an old school message board

1271
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 12: for people who weren't there. It really is a vile place,

1272
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 12: full of lots.

1273
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 10: Of hatred and anger. And I think that's where I've

1274
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 10: spent the most of the time, you know, researching the

1275
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 10: last like three or four weeks, trying to figure out

1276
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,959
Speaker 10: and understand the in cell community a lot better.

1277
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 4: But those places I had never I had never been

1278
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 4: on an in Cell Forum until this, and I've been

1279
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 4: doing true crime for quite a long time, I consider

1280
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 4: myself fairly unshockable. But I literally, like you said, the hate,

1281
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 4: the anger, the vitual, the despair, the disgain and discussed

1282
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 4: against women. The I literally could not believe the language.

1283
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 4: And I've certainly heard a thing or two, and I've

1284
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 4: said a thing or two, but not not like this.

1285
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 4: And we've also gotten to speak to all these all

1286
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 4: these different experts from every different field and statisticians, and

1287
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 4: we're talking about about one percent of men eighteen to thirty.

1288
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 4: That's one in every hundred. It's actually close to one

1289
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 4: point six percent. So picture that's like two classrooms of kids,

1290
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 4: maybe three. You know, one or two of them are

1291
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 4: in this world, and I think a lot of us

1292
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 4: need to know about it.

1293
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 7: They're on the verge of entering this world too, right,

1294
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 7: they're just teetering.

1295
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: And one thing that Connor does so well, and by

1296
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: the way, we had all seen the movie Adolescence. I

1297
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: know we're discussing it for our true crime and chill.

1298
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: That really is something that put it kind of on

1299
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: the forefront. And you know, popular conversation we've been talking

1300
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: about in cells for a really long time, and again

1301
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: it's very closed off. But in my head I thought

1302
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,959
Speaker 1: it was like this little small sample of disenfranchised young

1303
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: men who had a hard time maybe during COVID. That's

1304
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: the Pollyanna version that I had in my head. The

1305
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: amount is pretty astounding, and Connor's done a really amazing

1306
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: job about getting a real.

1307
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 2: Weighted scale of it extreme. And then also others.

1308
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: You know, not all in cells are violent, right, and

1309
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: not all in cell members are violent.

1310
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 2: That's a very clear distinction.

1311
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: So there is like the contributor or the person that

1312
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: you've interviewed that gives more of a heartwhelming, heartwarming version

1313
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: of why, and then the other side is unimaginable, right,

1314
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: And well.

1315
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 7: They de feed each other too, and they're behind a

1316
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 7: keyboard which makes it the feeding just a lot easier.

1317
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: And while most people.

1318
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 7: Can turn off the computer and just go live their

1319
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 7: life and be maybe in despair, you know, others are

1320
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 7: radicalized by it, right.

1321
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 10: Well, I think in cell podcasts, you know that we're

1322
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 10: sort of exploring with it is that it is one community,

1323
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 10: but at the same time, there's lots of different segments

1324
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 10: to the community, right, Like I think I kind of

1325
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 10: went into it Stephanie was talking about as well. It's

1326
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 10: like I thought, I sort of knew what the definition was,

1327
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 10: and you know, there's sort of the standard definition, right,

1328
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 10: like an involuntarily celibate person, young man who has frustrations

1329
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 10: with women. And then that's kind of like the beginning

1330
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 10: and then it opens the door and we, you know,

1331
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 10: go down this path throughout the series about what does

1332
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 10: that actually mean in real life? And you know, what

1333
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 10: I think I discovered was that there's there's a couple

1334
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 10: of different themes in groups. There are older in cells

1335
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 10: who are a little bit more of a life experience.

1336
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 10: Some of them have dated, some of them have had

1337
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 10: relationships with women, but they married married for three days,

1338
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 10: like one of the ones we talked to, right, And

1339
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 10: they they come to the conclusion and the description of

1340
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 10: themselves as in cells because they've sort of realized that

1341
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 10: they don't believe that they'll ever have a meaningful relationship

1342
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 10: with a woman. It doesn't mean that they don't want to,

1343
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 10: it doesn't mean that they haven't tried. It just means

1344
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 10: that they don't think that they will ever be able to.

1345
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 10: And they're a little bit more stoic, a little bit

1346
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 10: more sober in terms that they're talking about their failed relationships.

1347
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 10: There's a little bit also I might be to blame.

1348
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:22,240
Speaker 10: I might also have some issues. But then you have

1349
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,759
Speaker 10: this other group which is like, no, women are the problem,

1350
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 10: they're the enemy. I'm not frustrated, I'm angry. I want

1351
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,600
Speaker 10: all the things that they have good in life are taken.

1352
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: From men, which you know, the root of it is

1353
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 1: really hard to imagine too, because in many cases these

1354
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: are educated young men that come from sometimes really lovely families.

1355
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: You know, they have access to a computer, so they

1356
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: have a computer. You know, they're in a basement, so

1357
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: they're in a house in some cases. So it's like

1358
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: a surprising subculture that's like happening real time. I think

1359
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,440
Speaker 1: a little bit more than certainly more than I expected.

1360
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: But you got to really take that in one percent,

1361
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: one point six is probably really where it's at. More

1362
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 1: than likely, that's an astounding number. Connor like, that's a

1363
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: lot of men. And how do we protect ourselves as women,

1364
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: and how do we you know, you know, not trigger

1365
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 1: this kind of behavior, because again, we just saw this

1366
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: in the case that we were covering yesterday in New Jersey.

1367
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 1: This is an evolving story about the young man who

1368
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: mauled down two girls on their bicycle and a vengeance,

1369
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: and it seemed like he had some of these boxes

1370
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: checked that would be in alignment.

1371
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 2: With some of this ideology. It just seems like it's dark.

1372
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 2: What do we do?

1373
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, it is a dark role. I mean, I think

1374
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 10: one of the things that when I've had conversations about

1375
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 10: this project with people in the last couple of weeks

1376
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 10: and I've said, you know, I'm working on a project

1377
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 10: about in cells, and then immediately everybody's mind goes to

1378
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 10: who is the most creepiest guy that they've interacted with

1379
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 10: in the last couple of days. That guy's in itself.

1380
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 10: And I've had to actually sort of like correct people

1381
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 10: a couple of times and say, you know, like I

1382
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 10: get that dude's creepy and it might even be dangerous

1383
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 10: and he's totally odd, But that doesn't necessarily make you

1384
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 10: an insel, right, And I think we do tend to

1385
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 10: pile on and overlap, But like that, there there is

1386
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 10: a specific community which has given up hope of ever

1387
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 10: having a relationship with a woman. Some of these guys

1388
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 10: that are creepy that you interact with are just creepy

1389
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 10: dudes who find girlfriends, wives, partners, and they're not giving up.

1390
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 10: They're actively looking for women, whether or not it's to

1391
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 10: harm them, to belittle them, to have a relationship that's unhealthy.

1392
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 10: But like, the in cell community is a very specific group,

1393
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 10: and inside that group you have all sorts of different people.

1394
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 10: But what I found on the in cell chat boards

1395
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 10: was a really dark place in which and I heard

1396
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 10: this from a couple of different people, which is that

1397
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 10: they often view the message boards the online world as

1398
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 10: their real world, and their real world as something that

1399
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 10: is more fake, something that is less real. And I

1400
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 10: actually wanted to.

1401
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:08,680
Speaker 2: Ask you about itselves.

1402
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 7: I actually wanted to ask you about that, And if

1403
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 7: you have questions, give us a call eight to eight

1404
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 7: thirty one Crime. How do members of online in self

1405
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 7: communities view their online versus IRL lives and identities like

1406
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 7: their real life identities? Do they separate it out, do

1407
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 7: you think? Or is it the same?

1408
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 9: No?

1409
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 10: I mean I think it all depends on what type

1410
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 10: of person you're talking to. Like, I interviewed a couple

1411
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 10: of guys who are older in the late thirties early forties,

1412
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 10: who again have had relationships and they describe themselves as active.

1413
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 10: They try to stay away from message boards and chat

1414
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 10: poarts because they realize at this point in their lives

1415
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 10: how toxic and how self harmful it is, you know,

1416
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 10: destructive it is to them, right, But when you interact

1417
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 10: and read the comments by younger ones, and you can

1418
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 10: sort of tell the younger ones by the language they're

1419
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 10: using often, you know, you know, adolescence is a fantastic show,

1420
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 10: and I think it raises great issues. I'm not sure

1421
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 10: that that kid is your stereotypical in cell. In all honesty,

1422
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 10: I think I think you're getting closer to twenty early

1423
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 10: twenties and that sort of seventeen eighteen nineteen, like, just

1424
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 10: because of the access to dating and the ability to

1425
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 10: form relationships outside of your own home. Whereas you get

1426
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 10: some of these kids who are really toxic in their

1427
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:32,719
Speaker 10: relationships and their language, and they're twenty five year olds

1428
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 10: living at home. They don't have a job, or maybe

1429
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 10: their job is an online job, so they're always on

1430
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 10: their computer. You know, you see a lot of comments

1431
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 10: about like that on that insel dot i s board

1432
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 10: where there is just a lot of vitriol and hate

1433
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 10: and that online world for them is the truest form

1434
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 10: of themselves because it's where they get to say and

1435
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 10: do and be the person they want to be. Funny

1436
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,919
Speaker 10: with their means, angry with their language.

1437
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 7: Yep, the mask is gone, right, they don't have to

1438
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 7: wear that mask. They can just be themselves. Yeah, and

1439
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:10,480
Speaker 7: this is the true self, right.

1440
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 10: And you hear that a lot, that that's their true selves.

1441
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,720
Speaker 10: And again I put it compared to some of the

1442
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 10: older ones who said, like, I was that person in

1443
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 10: my twenties. I don't want to be that person in

1444
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 10: my late thirties. I'm still in celt I realized I'm

1445
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,839
Speaker 10: never going to have a relationship with a woman, probably,

1446
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 10: but I don't want to be that angry person.

1447
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 9: You know.

1448
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 10: One of the guys I talked to said, specifically in Brian,

1449
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 10: is like, I actually do want a relationship. I don't

1450
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 10: hate women. I'm frustrated with women. I've used language I'm

1451
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 10: not proud of, but I don't actually hate women. And

1452
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 10: another one's Venn said to me is like, some of

1453
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 10: the best friends are women. And that kind of blew

1454
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 10: my mind. It was Wow, it wasn't they hated all women.

1455
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 10: It's just they didn't think they would ever have a relationship.

1456
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 1: With a woman, which is so surprising because you know,

1457
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 1: again everybody's capable of being in a relationship. I wonder

1458
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: where that, like it really does start, where it's never

1459
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: going to happen. It does feel like it's a bit

1460
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 1: of an epidemic about loneliness. You know, I have to

1461
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: assume that COVID and that time period has only exacerbated it,

1462
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 1: and we're seeing sort of this aftermath thereafter. And again

1463
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 1: you should definitely listen to the podcast. Need pontificating about

1464
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: it is, you know, not the answer, but there is

1465
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: a correlation to some degree, and you know, it's really

1466
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: just a call to attention to change things, right, So

1467
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 1: a we have to understand it and unpack it and

1468
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: then you know, try to do better, and like what

1469
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 1: are the things that women should be aware of? Why

1470
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 1: are these men getting triggered and young men especially getting

1471
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 1: triggered so early in such a vi oral way.

1472
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 4: I mean, we do, we definitely do lay out a

1473
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 4: lot of that, you know, with you said it was

1474
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 4: a like a real wide spray of different experts to

1475
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 4: get all the perspective and people who study literally you know,

1476
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 4: different forms of in seldom as their livings, and there

1477
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 4: are a lot of things that you can see early on,

1478
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,679
Speaker 4: like little behaviors that can potentially give you a heads

1479
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 4: up of what my warning. Yeah, we go into statistics,

1480
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 4: and I love statistics because it just talks about likelihoods.

1481
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 4: So you know, without saying your child, your cousin, you're

1482
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 4: anything is an inceel.

1483
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 2: That's not it. It's statistically, here's.

1484
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 4: What may incline someone to lean into that world in

1485
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 4: a Marber's game. So we lay that out as well

1486
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,120
Speaker 4: as ultimately you know so much.

1487
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 7: Well, we're going to continue this conversation about in Cells

1488
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 7: with Connor Powell. Award winning journalists and podcast hosts. Keep

1489
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:49,679
Speaker 7: it right here on True Crime Tonight, we're talking true

1490
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:50,639
Speaker 7: crime all the time.

1491
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1492
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,719
Speaker 1: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here always

1493
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,680
Speaker 1: with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in. And tonight we

1494
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: have Connor Powell, executive producer and journalist who's been knee

1495
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: deep working with us on our podcast In Cells. Please

1496
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: download it on your iHeartRadio app. And Connor's worked on

1497
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 1: so many projects with us and really because he's a

1498
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: deep dive journalist, right, so he essentially goes he goes down.

1499
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 1: I mean we did Death Island with him, and that

1500
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: was an island where everybody.

1501
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 2: Died when you move.

1502
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 1: Not everybody, I'm really overstating here, but tourists would go

1503
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 1: there and suddenly mysteriously die. And then Connor was volunteering

1504
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 1: to go to Death Island day one, just him and

1505
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 1: like a like eyeglasses. Yeah, I was like, Connor, what

1506
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: are you doing? And this is the kind of thing

1507
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 1: he does all the time. So to hear you say

1508
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 1: that in cells even for you was too dark, yeah,

1509
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: is pretty extraordinary.

1510
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 10: How did you stay with it?

1511
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 1: Then?

1512
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 2: Why didn't you just bawm?

1513
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,520
Speaker 10: I think the same about this podcast with in cels.

1514
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 10: You know, we know this word, right, everyone sort of

1515
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:14,639
Speaker 10: has an idea of what the phrase is, but hasn't

1516
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 10: really been fully explained. And I think, you know, as

1517
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 10: you listen to this podcast and you get into the

1518
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 10: world of intels, there's all these new phrases that are

1519
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 10: going to start popping up. Transmaxinge looks maximum, red pill black, right,

1520
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 10: there's all these phrases that you're like, oh, maybe I've

1521
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,680
Speaker 10: seen somebody talk about that, but I don't really know

1522
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 10: or understand anything. And I think this series, unlike some

1523
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 10: of the other true crime series where you understand you know, murder,

1524
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,600
Speaker 10: first three, second degree manslaughter, you know, a mode of

1525
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 10: an alibi. This series with in Cells Are is going

1526
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 10: to take you into some rooms, in some places that

1527
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 10: you've just never heard or thought you'd be going into.

1528
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 7: Have you run, have you run across people on those

1529
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 7: forms that are transmasking at all.

1530
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 10: So I've talked to people about this and I've done

1531
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 10: some interviews, and it's best I can tell. It's not

1532
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 10: really a true thing. Okay, that's Transmaxine is the idea

1533
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:18,719
Speaker 10: that there are in cell men who view that women

1534
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 10: have it sort of better in the world, and so

1535
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 10: the best way out of your lot in life, your

1536
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 10: situation where you're a miserable and unhappy in cel, is

1537
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 10: that you should become trans and you should basically assume

1538
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 10: the identity of a woman, because then you'll get things

1539
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 10: like men to pay for you at dinner, you'll get

1540
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:38,520
Speaker 10: cheaper car insurance.

1541
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 6: You know.

1542
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 10: I spoke to one person who sort of described it

1543
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 10: as is more of a transphobic trope as opposed to

1544
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 10: a real thing. There there are I think potentially people

1545
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 10: who are like exploring it as an idea, but as

1546
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:56,560
Speaker 10: a part of the trans sorry, as a part of

1547
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 10: the in cell community, it's really just more used as

1548
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 10: a true to sort of a little trans people women

1549
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,680
Speaker 10: in general. Right, like the idea that women have it

1550
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 10: so much easier because they get cheaper car insurance. Right,

1551
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 10: that's kind of like, oh, look, how great women have it,

1552
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 10: And that's sort of the trope that they're using over

1553
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 10: and over and over again on these message boards. It

1554
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 10: looks Maxine is probably a way more true concept in

1555
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 10: the in cell world. And that's the idea that basically,

1556
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 10: you want to look your best and you're willing to

1557
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 10: do things that might help you attract women. You know,

1558
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:36,600
Speaker 10: you are entering the world of the chad who is

1559
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 10: sort of the derogatory term for men who you know,

1560
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 10: have relationships, and so you'll do things like chiseling your

1561
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 10: face or taking different drugs to help with things that

1562
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 10: make you look better and things like that. And that

1563
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:55,240
Speaker 10: is definitely a way more probably a true concept in

1564
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 10: the in cell world, and even Adam not one hundred

1565
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 10: percent sure how many are doing it. But there's also

1566
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 10: sort of a self harm that you will go so

1567
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 10: far in trying to fix yourself that you cause yourself

1568
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 10: harm and therefore you're back in the cycle of why

1569
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 10: am I doing this for women? I'm doing this and

1570
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 10: I'm hurting myself, and now I don't have women, and

1571
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 10: now I'm just angry at women. So it's sort of

1572
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:16,360
Speaker 10: like this circuit.

1573
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: This a cycle, right, like what you want so badly

1574
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:23,120
Speaker 1: is what's making you so enraged, which is sort of

1575
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: this double edged sword. And by the way, if you're

1576
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 1: just joining us, you're listening to True Crime tonight, and

1577
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about in Cells, which is our new podcast

1578
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,080
Speaker 1: that is out on iHeart. We hope you'll check it

1579
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: out because Connor Powell is with us and he has

1580
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 1: been He's been going deep down this down.

1581
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 2: In this topic.

1582
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:42,759
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing I think that was really

1583
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 1: interesting also on the in Cell front was just the

1584
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 1: idea of this algorithm, right that you know, the dark

1585
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 1: Web is really looking for and targeting specifically disenfranchised young

1586
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: men who might be susceptible to this type of thing.

1587
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 1: So remember when you're you know, clicking away on Instagram

1588
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: or we're clicking away on whatever it is we click

1589
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: away on that algorithm is feeding the beast and now

1590
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: you're getting more of it and more of it, and.

1591
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 2: It escalates and is meant to escalate. That's like, that's

1592
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:18,440
Speaker 2: the secret sauce.

1593
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: And those you guys do an amazing job of breaking

1594
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 1: it down.

1595
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:24,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, the algorithm is everything.

1596
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 4: The algorithm is everything, and there is definitely a very

1597
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:31,640
Speaker 4: deep dive on that and just hearing it from different perspectives.

1598
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 4: And here's where a little bit. It's Stephanie, you asked,

1599
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 4: you know, what to look out for, how is it

1600
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:42,680
Speaker 4: possible to prevent There was one man, boysend Hodgson that

1601
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 4: we interviewed and he's really wonderfully knowledgeable, you know, and

1602
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:49,680
Speaker 4: he drew the analogy. He's like, you know, you have

1603
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 4: an eleven year old boy who goes on and just

1604
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 4: I'm lonely. Well, ten clicks later because of what you

1605
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 4: said is the algorithm likes to incite, to keep you

1606
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 4: drawn in and keep you online because of course that's

1607
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 4: how people make their money on their ads. But so

1608
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 4: the content ratchets up and ratchets up. And several of

1609
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 4: the self identified in cells who were incredibly generous with

1610
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:20,680
Speaker 4: their time, yeah, and spoke with us as a way

1611
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,640
Speaker 4: of understanding, and every single one wrapped it up with

1612
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 4: I think people need to hear from us, and so

1613
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 4: do we.

1614
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:28,879
Speaker 2: It's important to understand.

1615
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 4: But it's just it's easy to accidentally click starting from

1616
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 4: I'm lonely, Yeah, I'm sad. It just can start very innocuously.

1617
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, it'd start innostantly, right, and then it just turns

1618
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 7: into possibly a violent hate machine of just constant regurgitating

1619
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 7: the same memes and tropes and reaffirming behavior. Right, and

1620
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:58,680
Speaker 7: you know you only those people are going to understand

1621
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 7: your language, right, your fellow and cels Well.

1622
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,719
Speaker 10: One of the things I thought was like really interesting

1623
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 10: going down deep into this world was so many of

1624
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:13,400
Speaker 10: the conversations about relationships about women about men are these

1625
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,479
Speaker 10: almost comical social media things. Like all of the women

1626
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 10: they were describing in a lot of these sites are

1627
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 10: sort of the the Instagram model, right and sati Yeah,

1628
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 10: and it's like, yeah, this world only real.

1629
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:34,280
Speaker 5: World either though its on social media exactly.

1630
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: Like they're hating this a specific kind of women who

1631
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,879
Speaker 1: they're seeing in their mind's eye as these you know, beautiful, perfect,

1632
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, Barbie types that are being dismissive of them

1633
01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 1: because they will never have the Ken vibe and they

1634
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:57,759
Speaker 1: call themselves you know, chads or who they But again

1635
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: it's like that's not the real world either, you know,

1636
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 1: like everybody's putting this weird front on on social media.

1637
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 1: It's very curing, this really curated weirdness that we're all

1638
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 1: living in.

1639
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 10: And so many of the men that they idolize who

1640
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 10: are selling them recipes for success, you know, subscribe to

1641
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,960
Speaker 10: my whatever weekly email. I'll do it. There's a lot

1642
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:23,879
Speaker 10: of life coaches out there that are not in sells themselves,

1643
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:26,680
Speaker 10: but are sort of selling that sauce, that recipe of

1644
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 10: like you're unhappy, you're unsuccessful because you're not doing this.

1645
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:32,840
Speaker 10: These people are screwing you over. But if you follow

1646
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 10: my path, here's a recipe for success. And those life

1647
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:41,600
Speaker 10: coaches they take some of these kids, I don't say kids, teenagers,

1648
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 10: young men into some really dark places very quickly, all

1649
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:52,640
Speaker 10: to sell them, you know, medicines, vitamins, self help books,

1650
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,400
Speaker 10: real estate planning guides. You know, like it just gets

1651
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 10: very dark very quickly. And so many of these men,

1652
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 10: that men that I research, so many of them are

1653
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,639
Speaker 10: sort of failed businessman. They've got a lot of them

1654
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 10: have like accusations of criminal misconduct on the real estate deals,

1655
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 10: or you know that they were getting drunk and getting

1656
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,599
Speaker 10: into serious fights, you know, fifteen years ago and stuff.

1657
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 10: And so a lot of the men that are held

1658
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 10: up as the sort of these are the men you

1659
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 10: want to be are really problematic in their own right

1660
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:26,080
Speaker 10: as well. But they're the ones that are being held

1661
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 10: up as here's the model man you want to be.

1662
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:34,839
Speaker 4: Andrew Tait is called out in by almost every person

1663
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 4: we've spoken to as the archetype of who many members

1664
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 4: of the in cell community they do, they.

1665
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 2: Look to, they aspire to, they will.

1666
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:47,679
Speaker 4: Pay that money out that you mentioned Connor to try

1667
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 4: and be more like.

1668
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:52,639
Speaker 2: And that's problematic in and of its own right.

1669
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 7: The whole Andrew Kate situation, that's very problematic, very yeah.

1670
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 10: And you know he's not an inceel, right, but.

1671
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:05,520
Speaker 7: He's but he's an alpha. He's an alpha in cell influencer.

1672
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 2: Let's say.

1673
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and is it just me like there does seem

1674
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 1: to be this you know, really unmeasurable uptick of the

1675
01:26:15,439 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 1: lone wolf, right, the single oh yeah, young man who's

1676
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 1: taking matters into his own hands once and for all. Hey,

1677
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,720
Speaker 1: I'll leave a manifesto and take somebody out and for

1678
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:31,360
Speaker 1: some you know, message in their mind, and that's really

1679
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 1: hard for law enforcement to track, right, So we're not

1680
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: really looking for groups online so much as much as

1681
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 1: you're looking for individuals who have gone wayward. We're being

1682
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 1: sucked into groups, so it becomes really complicated to monitor

1683
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 1: as well. And I guess that was another one of

1684
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 1: the scary things too, is you know, again we're on

1685
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 1: the dark web, not so much now, we're just it's here.

1686
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 1: It's like in in popular culture. It's not now that

1687
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: we've said the word. If you hadn't heard the word

1688
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 1: in cell before, I promise you you'll hear it again

1689
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:05,679
Speaker 1: and again and again. It's becoming common, and these attacks

1690
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:06,639
Speaker 1: are becoming common.

1691
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 10: I don't know how law enforcement, if you if you

1692
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:12,519
Speaker 10: go on these like Insul chatboards, I don't know how

1693
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,479
Speaker 10: you could determine who's a serious threat and who's not,

1694
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,240
Speaker 10: because the language is so vile and it's all over

1695
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 10: the place and it's just being thrown out. I mean

1696
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:24,920
Speaker 10: there's there's no you know, on Intel do code or

1697
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:27,880
Speaker 10: Insul that I or even like discord or four chan,

1698
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:32,479
Speaker 10: like the language is all vile and so I don't know.

1699
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 10: If you are law enforcement, you could be like, Okay,

1700
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:35,840
Speaker 10: well that guy seems okay, he's not going to go

1701
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 10: shoot an or, but that guy seems like he's going

1702
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 10: to go shoot on everyone, because like you can look

1703
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 10: at all of the posts and say, all of these

1704
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:43,800
Speaker 10: guys should be on our.

1705
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:48,240
Speaker 2: Radar, right, yeah, violent, right, So many of them are

1706
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 2: living at home without jobs.

1707
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:53,799
Speaker 1: So you know, for parents, is there something that mom's

1708
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:56,000
Speaker 1: dad should be aware of that they should be doing

1709
01:27:56,680 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 1: just in a very simple form. I know we only

1710
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 1: have a few moments, but is there some sort of

1711
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: iconic takeaway?

1712
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 10: I think you know the I was also some on

1713
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 10: some message boards where there were people who were concerned

1714
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:15,840
Speaker 10: about their brothers or their friends, and listening to those

1715
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:20,640
Speaker 10: stories and reading those stories about what triggered their concerns

1716
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:23,480
Speaker 10: about their you know, their brother or their their friend.

1717
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:28,200
Speaker 10: You know, it often was increasingly spending time alone, increasingly

1718
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:34,479
Speaker 10: being detached from their family. Increasingly you know, they're they're

1719
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 10: they're help their their appearance, right, was starting to slip

1720
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 10: in things like so again, it's not stuff that's out

1721
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 10: of the ordinary for concern for other people, right, you know,

1722
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 10: their their their inability to connect with other people, their

1723
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:50,919
Speaker 10: inability to take care of their sort of personal appearance.

1724
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:53,759
Speaker 10: Like these are all things that would be concerning of

1725
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 10: a fifty two year old man who's starting to slip

1726
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:58,760
Speaker 10: for another reason, right, But these are all things that

1727
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 10: I think the people who have loved ones who they

1728
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,559
Speaker 10: were concerned about, we're all raising as red flags, you know,

1729
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 10: same things that were out of the ordinary that they

1730
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:11,040
Speaker 10: weren't saying six months ago or two years ago their

1731
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 10: behavior was starting to change. I mean, those are things

1732
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:17,879
Speaker 10: I think that the friends and families were really starting

1733
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 10: to hone in on about. These are the concerns. These

1734
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 10: are what you need to look for if somebody is

1735
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:27,160
Speaker 10: going from an inseel on a message board to somebody

1736
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:29,920
Speaker 10: who might actually potentially do something more destructive.

1737
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: Wow, and then you have to watch adolescents and you

1738
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 1: just have to watch. It's such a great setup for

1739
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:37,440
Speaker 1: this conversation.

1740
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 2: It is.

1741
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,519
Speaker 4: I'm just going to say a big takeaway that was

1742
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 4: across the board and I got no solution for this,

1743
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:49,400
Speaker 4: but it was stay off of basically this community that

1744
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 4: you've now joined where you feel like you're being heard,

1745
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:56,519
Speaker 4: but almost across the board also brings you down sucks

1746
01:29:56,520 --> 01:30:00,200
Speaker 4: you in deeper. You leave more depressed every single day.

1747
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 4: This is both firsthand and clinical psychologist results.

1748
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 10: Well, I think one of the things that I saw

1749
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 10: on the really vile boards, you know, Discord four chand

1750
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 10: and soll Do is the anonymity, the ability to be

1751
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:20,400
Speaker 10: someone else, you know, just a meme or a fake name.

1752
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 10: Those are the places where you really solve the problems

1753
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,519
Speaker 10: because those are the places where there was no sort

1754
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 10: of responsibility. There was no restrictions on Facebook and some

1755
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 10: of these other sites that do have some regulations, some restrictions.

1756
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:37,680
Speaker 10: You saw people using their real names and it was

1757
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:41,640
Speaker 10: much more calm, maybe still anger and frustration, but it

1758
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 10: wasn't the same environment. And so like, I think, if

1759
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,120
Speaker 10: you know those environments where they're able to protect themselves

1760
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:51,240
Speaker 10: and say whatever they want because there's no name associated

1761
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:53,880
Speaker 10: with that language, those are the places that are really

1762
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 10: the most dangerous.

1763
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 2: Anna. We love having you here. I love being here

1764
01:30:57,640 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 2: again again and again.

1765
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: O G has been with us, and make sure you

1766
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 1: also check out the Opportunist podcast at the executive producer

1767
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 1: Connor is the real deal. So we keep trying to

1768
01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 1: drag him back into the family. We're like Connor. You

1769
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: can try to go off and do all these big

1770
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 1: fancy shmancy things, but we're going to keep dragging you

1771
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: back and dragging you back.

1772
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:19,959
Speaker 2: As many times as possible.

1773
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 1: So check out in cells and remember it's talk Back

1774
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 1: Tuesday tomorrow, so make sure you start leaving those talkbacks

1775
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:28,280
Speaker 1: for us. Just download the iHeartRadio app. It's been an

1776
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:31,400
Speaker 1: extraordinary night. Thank you Connor for being here, Thank you

1777
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:33,000
Speaker 1: for listening True Crime tonight.

1778
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 2: We will be back tomorrow. Stay bad Man night