1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. In his new book, No 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: Trade Is Free, Robert Leithheiser challenges the way we think 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: about trade policy in this country. He has more than 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: forty years of experience litigating, negotiating, and editorializing against the 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: failed policies of a one side free trade as part 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: of both the Reagan and Trump administrations and as a 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: private lawyer. He traces both the history of and damage 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: done by these policies and offers an incisive and highly 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: informed alternative scenario. The political establishments of both parties, under 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: the influence of multinational corporations and importers, have been unwilling 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: or unable to recognize their trade policy mistakes, which put 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: the American worker in manufacture at risk amid a quest 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: to maximize corporate profits, economic efficiency, and cut the price 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: of television and toys. Talk about his new book, I'm 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guest and my good friend, 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: Robert Leithheiser. He served in President Trump's cabinet as the 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: United States Trade Representative from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one, 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: and was a Deputy US Trade Representative under President Reagan. 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: He is one of America's most respected experts international trade, 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: having negotiated dozens of international agreements and practiced trade law 21 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: for more than forty years. Bob, welcome and thank you 22 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: for joining me on Newtsworld. 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, Nude for having me. As 24 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a great fan of yours, and I'm 25 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: just going to do a one minute hijack right now, 26 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: and that is when they introduce you as former speaker. 27 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: I always say they don't understand the context that you 28 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: were the first Republican speaker in forty years and the 29 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: second in sixty, going back literally the Roosevelt years. And 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: I can remember Bob Dole, who you know, I worked 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: for and loved, telling me that he thought what you 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: did in ninety four was more significant than what they 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 2: did in nineteen eighty when they took over the Senate. 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: So I just have to say that. And since you 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 2: were speaking, we've had four more Republicans. So that was 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: such a revolution every bit as big as the Reagan Revolution, 37 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: and I just want to put that on the record now. 38 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: I both appreciate you saying that personally, but also it's 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: a great excuse for me to bring my book in 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: March to the Majority, which actually just came out in 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: which basically tells the story of what was a sixteen 42 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: year project to grow a Republican majority in the House 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: for the first time since nineteen fifty four, and then 44 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: how we negotiated for four years with Clinton. And I 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: have to say, your book, I think is really important 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: because and I plead guilty here, I was one of 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: those who bought the notion that if only we helped 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: China open up economically, they would then open up socially 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: and they'd open up politically. And we were just wrong. Period. 50 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: It was totally wrong. You were right, We were wrong. 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: And it's in that context that I value so much 52 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: your new book, No Trade is Free, But talk about 53 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: something I now agree with. At the time, I was 54 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: on the other side. Why it was a disaster in 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: two thousand to give China permanent Most Favored Nation status. 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: So if we recall what was going on, we had 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: a policy of trade after the Second World War, and 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: at this point, the United States is the biggest economy 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: by orders of magnitude, the only real economy left in 60 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: the world, and we basically wanted to beat the Soviet Union, 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: and we went through a period where we had trade deals, 62 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: some of which were okay for us, some of it's weren't, 63 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: but it didn't matter. We rebuilt Europe, built Japan, and 64 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: ultimately beat the Soviet Empire. All Right, then you find 65 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: yourself in the ninety there's this Hubris and the Clinton 66 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: kind of people were the kind that were susceptible to Hubris, right, 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: the really smart people, right, we're really the elite smart people. 68 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: And there was all this talk about the end of 69 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: history and all this craziness. And at that time we 70 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: did three really bad things. And the last one is 71 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: what you just mentioned, and it was the biggest. First, 72 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: we did naft It, which was a mistake, was not 73 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: well done, but in those days, any deal was a 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: good deal in the opinion of the great geniuses. And 75 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: then we did this year Aguay around the last Great 76 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: Trade Negotiation, which created the WTO and kind of a court, 77 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: if you would, where we entered into this incorrect thinking 78 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: that somehow foreign bureaucrats from places like China would somehow 79 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: rule on American economic measures in a fair way. And 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: then the third thing, the biggest one, that just the 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: horrible one, was we granted most Favored Nation treaty treatment 82 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: to China, and the notion really was what you believe, 83 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: and it was the mainstream view was that they're going 84 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 2: to be comes Switzerland if you just transfer enough American 85 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: jobs to them. It's never worked. It was complete madness. 86 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: And I would say, there's this view of some people, Well, 87 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: how could you predict it? In nineteen ninety seven I 88 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: wrote an article, the first article on this, for the 89 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 2: New York Times. And you'll recall that in the ninety 90 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: six campaign, which I was involved with. You'll remember in 91 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: that campaign, there was this so called Indonesian money, right, 92 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: remember that that went into the Clinton campaign. And I 93 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: wrote this article and basically said it wasn't Indonesian money, 94 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: it was Chinese money. And I showed how it was 95 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: actually money from China. And then I said, what does 96 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 2: China want? And I said, they want permanent most Favored 97 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: Nation for even They want to get the WTO and 98 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 2: if they do that, and this is a quote, no 99 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: American manufacturing job will be safe. And it turned out 100 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: to be completely true. But it was built on this 101 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 2: kind of myth that we had sort of won. The 102 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: only flaw in the myth is that it ignores human nature, right, 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: It ignores the fact that everyone's trying to get an edge, 104 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: and then you saw what happened economically, was this, So 105 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: the Chinese before we granted permanent most Favored Nation, which 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: they call permanent normal trade relations, and they created this 107 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: euphemism you'll recall, so that they wouldn't tell like they 108 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: were favoring the communist Chinese. So what had happened before 109 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: that is they had the lower rates, but they could 110 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: be taken away any year by a vote of Congress. 111 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: For example, a US businessman wouldn't put a billion dollar 112 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: plant in China because he could lose his economic advantage 113 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: the next year when they made it permanent. Then initially 114 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: all these US companies decided, you know, they bought this 115 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: sort of myth that there's a billion consumers there that 116 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: are all going to be buying Cadillacs, and they moved 117 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: their plants over there. And what most of them were 118 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: trying to do really was get a little edge on manufacturing, 119 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: lower prices for labor, fewer environmental restrictions and the like, 120 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: and then sell back to the United States. And you 121 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: had this big shift so that we went from a 122 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: trade deficit with them in the twenties, low twenties billions 123 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: of dollars to one hundred and twenty billion dollars in 124 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: a couple of years, and then of course it's snowballed, right, 125 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: and now it is where it is, whatever it is, 126 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: three hundred and eighty billion dollars in goods last year. 127 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 1: I'm curious this whole deal that led to huge foreign 128 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: investment in China. Assume that the Chinese had the rule 129 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: of law in the same sense that we do in 130 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: private property, in the same Senseito, But isn't it true 131 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: that virtually every company now operating in China has a 132 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: sell inside the company of the Chinese Communist Party to 133 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: ensure that the right doctrine is being communicated. 134 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's for sure true. You know, I say, we 135 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: take great credit we in the Trump administration, President Trump 136 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: and making people realize how big the problem is in China. 137 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: But we were aided significantly by Shijiping, right, who has 138 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: sort of revealed that what they really are are a 139 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: totalitarian communist state. So there was this kind of a 140 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 2: notion in his predecessors of hide your strength and bide 141 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: your time. Right, pretend like you're helping, but all you're 142 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: doing really is trying to build up your own strength, 143 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: your own technology, and your own wealth from transfers of 144 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: trade surpluses to you. And then now we have a 145 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: president in China who's like, it's our time. We're not 146 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: going to hide our time anymore. And he's much bolder 147 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 2: and he's shown people how they always were, but now 148 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: it's more open. And one of the things they do 149 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: is they do have those sales in almost all the businesses. 150 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: And I tell people analytically, there's a couple of things 151 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: you have to think about in China. One, there are 152 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: no free companies. There are no free companies. There is 153 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: state owned enterprises, and there are state controlled enterprises, and 154 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: that includes US joint ventures. They are controlled by the 155 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: state in the sense that if they get out of line, 156 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: they lose their investment or they lose their edge. And 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 2: the second thing is that no business really makes money 158 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: in China unless the Communist Party of China wants them 159 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: to make that money. So they make the money for 160 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: as long as the party thinks it's in the party's 161 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: interest or in China's interests, if you want to put 162 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: it that way, and as much as they think it's 163 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: in their interest, So I'll give you just one example, 164 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: and there are a million of them. I've summoned the book, 165 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: but this was not in the book. The Ball Corporation, 166 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 2: like in twenty fifteen, was the biggest producer of beverage 167 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: containers in the United States and in China. All right, 168 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: three years later, they're still the biggest in the United 169 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: States and they're out of China. What happened. China took 170 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: the vis and no out took the technology, created their 171 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: own companies, and then just all the customers left Ball Corporation. 172 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: So Ball Corporation made money in China, while the parties 173 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: thought it was in their interest to create this industry 174 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: for themselves. On a grander scale, you can see a 175 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 2: similar pattern. And it happened in steel, it happened in 176 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 2: all of them. You can see a similar pattern right 177 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: now in the auto industry, right, and auto is such 178 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: a big part of trade, but you can see now 179 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: these foreign companies are making less and less money. The 180 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: Chinese are the biggest manufacturers Chinese companies of cars in 181 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: the world, and now for the first time, the biggest 182 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: exporters of cars in the world. 183 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: To what extent is this a system that can just 184 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: keep going and to what extent does India and others 185 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: come online do the Chinese find themselves in a much 186 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: more competitive and much more difficult environment. 187 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 2: In my opinion, it is going to continue indefinitely as 188 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: long as we have a stupid policy that encourages it. 189 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: So I like to say, we need before we get 190 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: to the economics, the sort of geopolitics you have to 191 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: It's like a two step process. One, do you understand 192 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: and that they are a lethal threat, that they are 193 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: an adversary and a dangerous adversary, and perhaps the most 194 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: dangerous adversary of the United States has faced in our existence, 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 2: certainly the one with the biggest economy compared to ours. 196 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: Even in the Second World War the combination of Japan 197 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: and Germany was not as close to the size of 198 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: our economy. So well, the first thing is do you 199 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: realize that they are this problem? And if you do, 200 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 2: then you have to change the policy. You can't continue 201 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: to transfer hundreds of billions of dollars to an adversary 202 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: whose objective is to become number one world and to 203 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: harm the United States, and to harm not only in 204 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: the United States but the Western system of free democracies. 205 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: Right because they have their own system, and they think 206 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: that's the system of the future, and they go around 207 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: telling the world that we're on decline, we're finished, and 208 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: if you want to be with the winners, be with them, 209 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: because there's just the right system. So economically, how long 210 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: can they do it? I think they can do it 211 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: for a bloody long time unless we take the steps 212 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: to stop what's going on, to change the status quo. 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: Let me give you a couple of numbers, nude, So like, 214 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: if you think about how much money do we transfer 215 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 2: to them in a year? All right, so trade deficits, 216 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 2: let's say, And these numbers shift depending on what basis 217 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: you're using. But say we transfer three hundred and eighty 218 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: billion dollars to them in trade deficits. Okay, we estimate 219 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: maybe another three hundred billion in stolen technology. Now the 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: number sometimes goes as highest six hundred billion. Then you've 221 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 2: got a couple one hundred million dollars that's transferred. It's 222 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: kind of off the record, it's off the books. I 223 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: won't go into the details unless you want to. But 224 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: it's this deminimous idea where we don't even have a 225 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: record of what it is because of a stupid law 226 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: that we passed a few years ago. And then you 227 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 2: have money we're transferred to them because they transhift through 228 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: Vietnam and other places. So you add it all up, 229 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: you're at six seven, eight hundred billion dollars a year 230 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: that we're transferring to all adversary. And you say, well, 231 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: how important is that to them? So say, their GDP 232 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: is seventeen trillion dollars and they were out five percent. 233 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: We're transferred just about the entire amount of their growth 234 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: to them. So it is really really important. And if 235 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: you look even at the real numbers for their defense, 236 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: we're transferring to them more than they spend on defense. 237 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: So I like to say nut that we're building up 238 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: the biggest army and the biggest navy in the world, 239 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 2: and they're in China, they're not in the United States. 240 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: Hi. This is NEWT and my new book, March the Majority, 241 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: The Real Story of the Republican Revolution. I offer strategies 242 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: and insights for everyday citizens and for season politicians. It's 243 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: both a guide for political success and for winning back 244 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: the Majority. In twenty twenty four, March the Majority outlines 245 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract with America 246 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: explains how we elected the first Republican House majority in 247 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: forty years, and how we worked with President Bill Clinton 248 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: to pass major reforms, including four consecutive balanced budgets. March 249 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: to the Majority tells the behind the scenes story of 250 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: how we got it done. Go to ginglishtree sixty dot 251 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: com slash book and order your copy now. Order it 252 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: today at gingishtree sixty dot com slash book. I know 253 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: one of the points you'd made was that if you've 254 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: edit it all up, between two thousand and one and 255 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the US actually imported five point thirty 256 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: nine trillion more in Chinese goods and services than we 257 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: exported to them. I mean five trillion, three hundred and 258 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: ninety billion dollars more. 259 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: By the way, it's even bigger now because one of 260 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: the things that we could talk about or not talk 261 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: about it is really not in the book because of 262 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: the timing, is that all this crazy stimulus money that 263 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: President Biden gave to the consumers, a huge amount of 264 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: that was just shifted right to stimulate economic growth in China. 265 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: Because these people have this money and they won't online, 266 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: and they spend all this money. So you see these 267 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: numbers even going crazy. Let's say the time that you started, 268 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: you said, like two thousand and two thousand and one, 269 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: when they got Urbanama Fan and got the wto their GDP, 270 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: was like one point two trillion dollars, okay, and now 271 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: it's seventeen trillion dollars. You look at how much we 272 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: transferred and the compounding effect of all of that over 273 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: a twenty year period, you know, we account for most 274 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,119 Speaker 2: of their economic growth. The Chinese economic miracle is largely 275 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: a transfer of wealth from the United States to China. 276 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: It is a policy of madness. And if you look 277 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: at the cost benefit analysis, what did we get for it? 278 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: Largely we got consumables. Most of it doesn't even exist anymore. 279 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: The stuff that we bought twenty years ago was did 280 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: a trash heap somewhere. So we have in exchange for 281 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: the ownership of our own property, we have shifted into 282 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: China and got in return television steps, as you say, 283 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: and tea shirts and blenders and crazy stuff. It's a 284 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: policy of badness. 285 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: They've made an enormous effort to infiltrate the American academic world. 286 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: It's really impressive how much they've gone after professors and 287 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: institutions and how much money they've poured into American universities, 288 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: as you know. I mean, I've been fascinated with the 289 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: amount of money the University of Pennsylvania got from communist 290 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: China as it was funding the Center for Joe Biden. 291 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: But I think there was an MIT professor who was 292 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: arrested for basically having spied for the Chinese. They have 293 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: consciously tried to penetrate our academic system, both to get 294 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: secrets and also, I think just to build influence. 295 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: This is something I do talk about in the book. 296 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: I mean, you've got more than three hundred thousand students 297 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: over here, the vast majority of which are going to 298 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 2: go back. They're all connected somehow to their intelligence. You 299 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: have these Confucius institutes, you have Chinese nationals working international labs. 300 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: The penetration of business is crazy. You see a businessman, 301 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: and I have some examples in the book of a 302 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: normal businessman, and he'll say something fairly benign, and then 303 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: you'll see them the next day apologizing for it, and 304 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: you realize that somebody from China called and said, you 305 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: got to correct that. I mean, there are a lot 306 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: of Americans, hard working, blue collar people who have their 307 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: investments in funds that are shipping some of that money 308 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 2: to China. We can't even audit the books of the 309 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: Chinese companies. But the influence pedaling thing that you had 310 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: is sort of in two categories. One is the normal 311 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: kind of influence peddling, and then there's this University of 312 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania and by the way, money transmit to University Delaware 313 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: that we also think could be Chinese. I'll give you 314 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 2: another thought. Would you like to know how much I 315 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: don't know the answer to this, but how much Chinese 316 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: money is in the Clinton Foundation? Can you even imagine 317 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: the size of that number? And whatever it is, whatever 318 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 2: the number is, it is a bargain from their point 319 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: of view, given the trillions of dollars that we've transferred. 320 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: So it's very dangerous. And I'll give you just one 321 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 2: final thought on this, since you pushed the wrong button 322 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: and got me talking on this. We're trying to find 323 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: out new what the bank records are and the telephone 324 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: calls with all this, you know that's going on that 325 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: James Comer's doing such a great job, and Chuck Grassley 326 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: and these great people trying to do it over the 327 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: objection of the Democrats. We're trying to find that out. Well, 328 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: where do you think there is a copy of every email, 329 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: every week, chet every bank account, every recording of every 330 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 2: public and private meeting between the Bidens and the Chinese. 331 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: There's a file in China that's you know, a foot deck, 332 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: and every one of these things are in there. And 333 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 2: that's another way of saying, for the first tim in 334 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 2: our history, if any of this is true, they have 335 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: the power really to determine our next election. It's a 336 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: flabbergasting thought. But we're trying to uncover all this and 337 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: they have it, all, all of it. 338 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: One of the things that President Trump did was establish 339 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: a special unit at the Department of Justice to go 340 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: after Chinese espionage, and then the Biden administration dismantled it. 341 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: It was just insanity, you know, I assume. And you 342 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 2: see more and more indications of a softening. They call 343 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: it stabilizing. So my own view, you can draw your 344 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: own conclusions. They're either naive or influenced by something beyond 345 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: the obvious. But if you look at where they are now, 346 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: a lot of their actions are moving in the direction 347 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: of so called stabilizing, which is another word for deton right, 348 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: which means you basically going to make concessions of the 349 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 2: current trajectory. Doesn't change. Well, the current trajectory are our 350 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: economic relationship, as I just said, vastly favors China. So 351 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: one you decide they're an adversary, Two you want to 352 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: lock in the trajectory. Will they want to lock in 353 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: the trajectory? We shouldn't. We should want to change the 354 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: trajectory so that we move ahead of them rather than 355 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: have them catch up with us. We're in a very 356 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: scary place. And what worries me even more is what 357 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: will happen after the election. There's a limit to what 358 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: anyone in this administration can do to sort of make 359 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 2: concessions between now and the election, because the American people 360 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: very strongly, very strongly agree with us. But you wonder 361 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: if there is an election and if they stay in 362 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: what they will do to make concessions to China. There's 363 00:20:50,040 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: an awful lot of state for our kids and our grandkids. 364 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one alone, more than fourteen hundred Chinese 365 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: born but US trained scientists left the US go back 366 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: to China, And in twenty twenty three, the Australian Strategic 367 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: Policy Institute determined that China leads the United States in 368 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: thirty seven out of forty four areas of key technology research. 369 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean, shouldn't this be a lot bigger national crisis? 370 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: For sure it is, and by the way that Australian 371 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: study determined that a lot of these we were so 372 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: far behind that it was impossible to catch up. Chinese 373 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: expertise going home. They have this thousand talents program and 374 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: they pay them very heavily they go back there. Plus, 375 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: of course they have influence over their family members who 376 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: are back in China. Their own security laws say that 377 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: every one of these people has to cooperate with security 378 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: agency to do so. They have vastly expanded the power 379 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: of their security forces over Chinese business in Chinese individuals 380 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: just in the last three or four years. 381 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: They actually run police stations in the US and around 382 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: the world where they can remind people that they're still 383 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: under Chinese control, even if they're in a different sovereign country. 384 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: It's a system that, however this turns out, history will 385 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: be very unkind to appeasers. It has been in the 386 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: past and it will be in the future. 387 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: I think one of the areas I've recently been surprised 388 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: by is the scale of the Chinese buying up American land, 389 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: particularly around military basis. Is this something we ought to 390 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: be dealing with directly? 391 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: I think absolutely. So what is happening is you have 392 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: this SCIFIUS, this Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, 393 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: of which I was on it. It Treasury headed it up, 394 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: but they had the US to aren't. So I was 395 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: on it and I signed two really good people to it. 396 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: Said anything that's remotely fishy we want to object to, 397 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: and we'll object to it and take it to the President. Right. 398 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 2: I'm not going to let some bureauc oud of Treasury 399 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: if I make these decisions. But it's got to be 400 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: national security stuff. It needs to be expanded so that 401 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: it's economic security as well. Another way to think of 402 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: it as reciprocity. Do you think you could go and 403 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: buy farmland in China? I don't care where it was. 404 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: Of course, you can't buy a square inch of it, 405 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 2: but we let them do it right in your military bases, 406 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: solar panel farms and things near military bases, and none 407 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: of that should be permitted. There's no US interest in that. 408 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: I mean, what's the possible offsetting interest. There isn't one 409 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: other than for a handful of people that are going 410 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: to get rich. So that whole siffious thing which was 411 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: strengthened during the top administration, means to be vastly strengthened again. 412 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: And for me, I would just have an absolute ban 413 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: on property ownership in this context by Chinese entities. There's 414 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: just literally no reason for it to it. 415 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: What was it like actually negotiating with the Chinese. 416 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: That's a great question. New The guy I dealt with, 417 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: who was a vice premier, same level as the person 418 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: that Secretary Yellen bowed to, was I think an honorable, 419 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: honest guy, very smart, had spent some time at Harvard 420 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: and spoke English. But we negotiate, of course in Chinese. 421 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: But what I found when I negotiated, and I have 422 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: a fair amount on this in there, and I put 423 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: it in largely because I want posterity to see it right, 424 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: to have some access to it. But what you tended 425 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 2: to do, and it wasn't just with the Chinese. For me, 426 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 2: when I negotiated and I go to a lot of people, 427 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: I would talk to the senior level person at that level, 428 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 2: But then I would usually end up shifting at some 429 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: point my questioning an argument to whoever his expert was right, 430 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: his or her expert was, you know, I did it 431 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: with the Canadians, I did it with the Japanese, I 432 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: did it with Europe. Because you find the person you're 433 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: dealing with. In the case of China, that guy was 434 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: really smart herely knew his economic stuff. But when you 435 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: would get like to agricultural technical agricultural policy, which is 436 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: very very technical, right, I would have my brief so 437 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: that I knew it, and I would then end up 438 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 2: arguing or cross examining if you want his expert and 439 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: I say it wasn't just unique to China, but it 440 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 2: was most countries, and then just let him see how 441 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: weak his own experts argument is because there's a lot 442 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: of other things going on, particularly in China. So you've 443 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: got what Cheeching Ping wants, and then he's got a 444 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 2: wider group of sort of people under him that at 445 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: some point you have to expand out and get their support. 446 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 2: But you also have local government officials who have individual 447 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: and independent economic interest in these things. And then you 448 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: have bureaucrats who also are very powerful and have their 449 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 2: own bureaucratic power that comes and when you're making these 450 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: kinds of changes, it affects all of those people right 451 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: in different kind of ways. So you can make an agreement. 452 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 2: I think we did in May twenty nineteen. We had 453 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: a kind of a breakdown because we sort of had 454 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 2: most of an agreement and then they basically reniged on it. 455 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: And I think they renigged because of the hardliners coming 456 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: in and the local government people coming in and the 457 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 2: Beercraft's coming in, and I'll saying, WHOA, this is going 458 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 2: to change things in a way that we don't want. 459 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: What was your reaction to the Yellen visit? 460 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 2: I thought that And I have been very supportive of 461 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: the Biden people to the extent I can be, and 462 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 2: they've got some good people in there. But the trend 463 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: in the last several months is really more revealing. It's 464 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: either because they have this alternative motivation, or because they're 465 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: giving up to big business in the United States and 466 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: sort of throwing the workers under or because they think 467 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: it'll have a negative impact politically on them next year 468 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 2: or something. But whatever it is, they're showing a great 469 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: deal of weakness. And I thought that Number one asking 470 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: and begging for meetings is always a mistake. It's just 471 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 2: always a mistake. What we did is we act, and 472 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: then the momentum was on them, right we put tariffs 473 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: in place, the momentum was on them to want the meetings. 474 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: We never came in there and begged for meetings like that. 475 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: And I'll give you another example. Ronald Reagan didn't. There 476 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: were no cabinet meetings with the Soviets in Moscow. Might 477 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: have been in other places, but in Moscow for the 478 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: first couple of years. When I went over there, I 479 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: negotiated the long term Grain Agreement. I was a deputy, 480 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 2: not a cabinet level. I was one level below that, 481 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: and I negotiated that agreement in eighty three, in the 482 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: summer and fall of eighty three. I at that time 483 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: knew it was the highest level Reagan official who had 484 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: been in the Soviet Union, and then Jack Block, who 485 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: was Secretary of Agriculture when he went over to sign 486 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: it a month or so later, he was the first 487 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: cabinet person to be there. Ronald Reagan wasn't begging the Soviets. 488 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: He was anti daytont. His view was we have to 489 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: build up our army and build up our economy and 490 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 2: then we'll talk to the Soviets. And that's what he 491 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: did in his second administration. So this notion of showing 492 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: weakness in the face of an adversary, it just literally 493 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: never works out. Well, I was really quite surprised by 494 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: the way the whole thing went. And I'll tell you 495 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: right now, I'll bet you there was no clear statement 496 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: of our I don't know this, of course, of our 497 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: long term strategic interests, our arguments. I'll bet you it 498 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: was the weakest, softest presentation one could ever imagine. And 499 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: the Chinese reacted as you would expect him to react. 500 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: They go all around the world saying, you see, we 501 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: told you the America was in decline. 502 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: Here's the proof, right, the person who's bowing is clearly 503 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: communicating being subordinate to the person they're bowing to. 504 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I wish, but I'll tell you this Secretary of 505 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: State's visit was sort of embarrassing too. I guess somebody said, 506 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: you know, one sort of embarrassed themselves and the other 507 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: embarrassed the whole bloody country. I don't know how that 508 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: works out. 509 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: I thought. In B. Lincoln's case, there's a scene where 510 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: he walks all the way across us the stage to 511 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: shake Xujhenping's hand, and Jijenping just stands there and requires 512 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: the American to literally come like thirty feet. 513 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: But at least in that case, and I agree with you, 514 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: and anyone who thinks this kind of symbolism isn't important 515 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: is nuts, right. It is important. That's what they used 516 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: to propagandais. But at least in that case you had 517 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: a brank difference that was significant, right. But when you 518 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: have people of equal rank and you're bowing to them, 519 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: it's just as I say, ignominious is the term that 520 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: jumps to mind. 521 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: I must say that Sexuary Yellen bowing or cowtowing to 522 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: the Chinese reminded me of Secretary of State Albright dancing 523 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: with the North Korean dictator in the Clinton years and 524 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: having no notion the signal she was sending the planet 525 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: of acceptance of a guy who was a totally ruthless, 526 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: toutlitarian who had actually shrunk the height of his own 527 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: population by diverting resources into his nuclear program and away 528 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: from feeding them. You have this passion on the left 529 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: for appeasing your enemies. It's astonishing. 530 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: I agree with that. 531 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: I want to thank you, but I also just want 532 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: to say, having watched you wage this fight when you 533 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: were a pretty lonely voice and the entire establishment was 534 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: on the other side, and then having you and Trump 535 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: actually break through and begin to change things, I have 536 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: the greatest admiration for your persistence and your courage and 537 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: your steadiness. And I think that No Trade Is Free 538 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: is in that sense an important book because it both 539 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: captures lessons you personally have learned from many years of 540 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: doing it, and it lays out for us a practical, 541 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: realistic approach to how we should be negotiating all we 542 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: should expect. So we're going to make sure that all 543 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: of our listeners can get a copy of the book 544 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: by going to our show page or be a link 545 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: to it. And I want to thank you for joining me. 546 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: You're endlessly fascinating and remarkably knowledgeable. 547 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 2: Well I appreciate that. And as I say before, if 548 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: you've got a bigger fan than me, it's because you 549 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: married her. 550 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: I think I'll tell Callista that that's a great line. Anyway, 551 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: But thank you very much for joining us. 552 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 553 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Robert Letheiser. You can get 554 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book No Trade is 555 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: free on our show page at newsworld dot com. Newtsworld 556 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 557 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 558 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 559 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrich three sixty. If 560 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 561 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 562 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 563 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consign up from a three 564 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at Gingridge three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 565 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich and this is nuts World.