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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 3: a woman feels the burden of being caught in the

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Speaker 3: middle when her parents divorce after almost forty years.

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Speaker 4: She was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.

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Speaker 4: I don't even like him anymore. I don't think I'm

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Speaker 4: in love with him. I don't even want to have

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Speaker 4: sex with them anymore.

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Speaker 1: Way, too much information, Yeah, yeah, First A quick note,

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Speaker 1: therapist is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute

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Speaker 1: medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute for

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Speaker 1: professional healthcare advice. Diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice

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Speaker 1: of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health

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Speaker 1: provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical

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Speaker 1: or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

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Speaker 1: to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn full, and we

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Speaker 1: may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions

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Speaker 1: you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy

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Speaker 1: of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 3: Hey Lourie, Hi guy. So we have an interesting letter

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Speaker 3: today because you know, divorce is tough on kids, but

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Speaker 3: in this case, the kid's an adult and it's still tough.

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Speaker 3: So here it is deo therapists. I'm an adult and

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Speaker 3: my parents are separating after thirty nine years of marriage.

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Speaker 3: I'm the youngest child and an excellent sympathetic ear. I

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Speaker 3: listen to my mum's problems about my dad. My mum's

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Speaker 3: problem is about my sister, who is definitely not on board.

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Speaker 3: My sister's issue is about not being on board my

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Speaker 3: dad's problems about my mom, and my dad trying to

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Speaker 3: tell me my mom needs more support. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how to deal with all of my own emotions related

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Speaker 3: to my parents divorcing as an adult much less everyone

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Speaker 3: else's feelings about it. I need help, sincerely, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: That is a really tough one because I think that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think that when you're an adult

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Speaker 1: in your parents divorce, that somehow the divorce is going

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Speaker 1: to be relatively easy. In fact, I think that's the

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Speaker 1: reason that so many parents wait until their children are

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Speaker 1: out of the house to split up. But in fact,

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Speaker 1: when you're older, there are certain problems that you have

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Speaker 1: that might not show up if your parents divorced when

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Speaker 1: you were younger, such as what she's experiencing, which is

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Speaker 1: being thrust into the role of mediator armchair therapists to

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Speaker 1: the parents, being pulled in all different directions, and also

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Speaker 1: probably learning more about the details of the divorce that

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Speaker 1: she would have been shielded it from if she were younger.

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Speaker 3: So there are plenty of people who get divorced and

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Speaker 3: are aware that they should shield the kids when the

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Speaker 3: kids are young, and when their kids are adults, there's

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Speaker 3: just a little less imperative on their rent to shield them,

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Speaker 3: and they actually go, oh, great, they're adults, so I

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Speaker 3: can really lean on them now for my rebuilding, for support,

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Speaker 3: And it puts such a burden on those adult children.

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Speaker 3: So I totally understand the trap she's in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too, So let's go find out what's

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Speaker 1: going on with her.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy

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Speaker 3: Wench and this is Dear Therapist. Hey Nicole, welcome to

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Speaker 3: the show.

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Speaker 5: Thanks, I'm excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: Call hi, Sonicole. We'd love to hear a little bit

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Speaker 3: more about what's happening right now with your parents and

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Speaker 3: in what way they're putting you in the middle.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's exclusive to my parents. It's kind

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Speaker 4: of always been my role in life has been the listener.

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Speaker 4: So it's my parents, my mom, my dad, and then

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Speaker 4: my sister. I do have a brother as well, but

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Speaker 4: he is just not that involved with our family life.

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Speaker 5: He's kind of often doing his own thing.

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Speaker 4: But everybody always comes to me when they have a

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Speaker 4: problem with somebody else in the family, and then I

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Speaker 4: kind of carry the burden of everybody's and try to

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Speaker 4: give advice where possible. And at this point, though, it's

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Speaker 4: kind of like everybody's coming to me, and then everybody's

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Speaker 4: problem is with the other.

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Speaker 5: Person, which is a little more difficult.

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Speaker 1: How did that play out when you were younger with

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Speaker 1: everybody coming to What kinds of things would they come

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Speaker 1: to you with when you were a child.

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Speaker 4: Generally it's always been family stuff, like my mom's mad

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Speaker 4: at my sister, and then I would play the mediator,

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Speaker 4: or my mom is mad at my dad and I

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Speaker 4: would try to mediate or help.

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Speaker 3: How young were you when this kind of thing started?

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Speaker 4: I would say young teenager, Like my sister and my

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Speaker 4: mom always had more conflict. I avoid conflict in at

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Speaker 4: all accosts. So my mom and my sister had conflict.

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Speaker 4: So there's definitely some there, but it's definitely progressed as

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Speaker 4: I've become more of an adult. I had my own

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Speaker 4: child pretty young, and once I did that, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: you're an adult now, and we're going to give you

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Speaker 4: all these problems.

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Speaker 5: I was only like twenty two.

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Speaker 1: I imagine that as any new parent, you probably needed

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Speaker 1: help yourself. Who did you go to for advice or

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Speaker 1: for help?

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Speaker 4: Primarily my mom, just because my sister had her child

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Speaker 4: like a couple of years after me, so it was

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Speaker 4: primarily my mom. And I have one living grandparent who's

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Speaker 4: not involved in my life, and then one passed away

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Speaker 4: ground parent, and so there was really not a lot

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Speaker 4: of other female figures, will say that were available.

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Speaker 1: Can you paint the picture for us of the different

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Speaker 1: relationships in your family when you were growing up.

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Speaker 4: So, my mom and I have always been really tight,

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Speaker 4: and I haven't been as close to my dad up

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Speaker 4: until recently with this divorced stuff, I've gotten closer now.

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Speaker 5: My sister and my dad were tight.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't close with my sister until after she moved

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Speaker 4: to college.

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Speaker 5: We fought really, like, really bad.

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Speaker 1: And what's the age difference?

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Speaker 4: We're five years apart, so separate lives anyways, up until

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Speaker 4: we became a little more like adult. And my brother

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Speaker 4: and I were close when we were younger, but we're

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Speaker 4: not close now. And I wouldn't say he's particularly close

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Speaker 4: with either of my parents.

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Speaker 1: And what's the age difference with your brother? Just a

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Speaker 1: year and a half, he's older. Yes, So the people

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Speaker 1: who would come to you for advice were your mom

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Speaker 1: when she would get into conflict with your sister, your

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Speaker 1: sister when she would get into conflict with your mom.

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Speaker 5: And my dad when he would be in conflict with my.

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Speaker 3: Mom, even though you weren't close, he would come to

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Speaker 3: you when you were younger.

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Speaker 4: Yes, because he recognized that the key to finding what

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Speaker 4: was going to help him fix whatever was wrong with

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Speaker 4: my mom was often through me because I knew her

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Speaker 4: and our personalities are similar, so he felt like I

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Speaker 4: could help him find the answer.

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Speaker 3: So really it was full on family therapy for you

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Speaker 3: at a very young age, and you are getting paid

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Speaker 3: for it and you actually a member of the family,

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Speaker 3: so that was awkward all around.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of always been my role.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a sense of why your dad came

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Speaker 1: to you instead of your mom? Since you said you

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Speaker 1: and your mom are similar, So what's your sense of

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Speaker 1: why he didn't just go straight to your mom to

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Speaker 1: try to work it out?

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Speaker 5: Because when my mom is mad.

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Speaker 4: You, she will not listen to reason, she will not

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Speaker 4: talk it out, She will just be mad at you,

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Speaker 4: and she will hold on to it for the next forever.

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Speaker 4: And so he didn't feel like he had a space

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Speaker 4: to talk to her and say what will happen to

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Speaker 4: make this better? Or like what can I do to

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Speaker 4: fix this?

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Speaker 3: But you could, I mean, are you the mom whisperer

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Speaker 3: in the family too. In other words, were you able

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Speaker 3: to get through to her?

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I could, or sometimes I could suggest. I mean

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Speaker 4: I would say I'm way better at it than anybody else.

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Speaker 4: It's not been as easy for me because it's coming

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Speaker 4: from so many angles.

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Speaker 5: But a lot of.

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Speaker 4: Times I am the one that can be like, okay,

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Speaker 4: you should, you know, start by apologizing.

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Speaker 5: Then maybe you want to like buy or a little.

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Speaker 4: Present, or maybe you want to say, this is what's

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Speaker 4: wrong here, and this is how I feel about it,

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Speaker 4: and it doesn't have anything to do with how you

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Speaker 4: feel about it. You know, like to lay out what

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Speaker 4: plan needs to happen. I guess, because sometimes she can

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Speaker 4: be really irrational.

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Speaker 1: What happens when she's mad at you?

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Speaker 5: It's not good because there's no one to mediate that, right.

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Speaker 4: My dad will try sometimes, and often his attempt is

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Speaker 4: something like, can I give an example of a story?

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Speaker 5: Can I tell you a story?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So my son loves hockey and he wants to be

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Speaker 4: a goalie, which is every parent's first nightmare.

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Speaker 5: How old your son?

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Speaker 4: He just turned six, so he's loved this for many years.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he's just absolutely bonkers for hockey. And we

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Speaker 4: had said We didn't want to buy him any goalie

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Speaker 4: gear because we didn't want to encourage the goalie part

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 5: It's so expensive and it's dangerous.

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Speaker 4: So we my mom helped a cousin of ours buy

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Speaker 4: him some goalie pads, which really upset me because she

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Speaker 4: knew that we didn't.

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Speaker 5: Want that in the house. We didn't want to encourage

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Speaker 5: that aspect.

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Speaker 4: We were fine with him wanting to play hockey, but

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Speaker 4: encouraging the goalie thing was like past what we wanted

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 5: So he got the pads and I was upset.

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Speaker 4: And my dad called me and he's like, I know

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Speaker 4: you're upset about this, but please just don't bring it up.

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Speaker 5: Please just don't.

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Speaker 4: Say anything, say the bare minimum that you need to

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Speaker 4: say to make yourself feel better, and then quit.

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Speaker 1: Is he worried that if you say something, he has

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Speaker 1: to live with your mom?

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Speaker 5: And yeah, she's going to take it out on him.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So what happened to you did end up

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Speaker 3: saying something?

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Speaker 4: I did because that was a line that we had

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Speaker 4: drawn prior as parents.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'd love to hear what exactly you said

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Speaker 3: to her and what her reaction was. I want to

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Speaker 3: hear how that conversation went.

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Speaker 4: She was with the guy shopping and they did it together.

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Speaker 4: You know, even though he paid for him, she was

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Speaker 4: definitely there and could have stopped.

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Speaker 5: Him and knew how we felt about it. I said,

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Speaker 5: this is an issue for us.

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Speaker 4: We don't want these in our house and I don't

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Speaker 4: want people shooting pucks at my kid's head. I just said,

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Speaker 4: you know, you cross this line and you don't listen

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Speaker 4: to what I say. And what's important to me is

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Speaker 4: that you didn't listen, and I'm upset about it. And

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Speaker 4: she was incredibly upset and would didn't talk to me

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Speaker 4: for several days.

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Speaker 5: What does her upset and this look like?

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Speaker 1: How did she actually respond in the moment to you?

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Speaker 4: Usually when she's upset is she will say something like

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Speaker 4: I just can't talk about this anymore, and she'll you

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Speaker 4: can tell like she's crying on the phone or is

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Speaker 4: mad or angry. You know that there's kind of a

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Speaker 4: tone of voice, and then she'll just hang up on

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Speaker 4: you and she won't.

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Speaker 5: Talk to you anymore.

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Speaker 1: So you told her how you felt and she said,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Did she try to defend herself? This is why I

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Speaker 1: did it that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: She kind of tried to play it off like he

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Speaker 4: did it on his own, the cousin that actually purchased him.

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Speaker 5: But I know she was there with him. She didn't

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Speaker 5: say well, I tried to stop him or anything. She

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Speaker 5: just did it.

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Speaker 4: And then when she was there and he presented the

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Speaker 4: pads as well, so she knew what was coming and

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Speaker 4: did not warn me. There's many factors right that we're upsetting.

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Speaker 3: So Nicole, you said that you really avoided confrontation at

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Speaker 3: all costs, and clearly though here for the well being

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Speaker 3: of your son and his face and teeth, you were

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Speaker 3: actually willing to have the confrontation. It sounds like you

279
00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:37,079
Speaker 3: expressed that as assertively, simply and clearly as one can,

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Speaker 3: So you actually did a very good job in doing that.

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Speaker 3: My question to you is that now you have a

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Speaker 3: clear idea of that you don't like being put in

283
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Speaker 3: the middle, But when you're doing that as a child,

284
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Speaker 3: as an adolescent, there are a lot of rewards in

285
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Speaker 3: it in that a you get to know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: It's a very powerful position to be in. At what

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Speaker 3: point did you start to realize, you know, this is

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Speaker 3: not as fun as it seemed at first, At what

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00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:05,759
Speaker 3: point did you realize, Wait, what happens to my own

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Speaker 3: feelings about these things?

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Speaker 4: About four five years ago, my brother was getting married

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Speaker 4: in Ireland and my parents were going and they were

293
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Speaker 4: having like a huge issue. They were fighting with each other.

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Speaker 4: They couldn't get along for five seconds. I mean, it

295
00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:28,759
Speaker 4: was awful, and they were coming to me and I

296
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Speaker 4: was trying to do it.

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Speaker 5: You mean, you're ruining my vacation.

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Speaker 4: I'm there with my husband, trying to enjoy Ireland and

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Speaker 4: trying to enjoy my brother's wedding and trying to keep

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Speaker 4: my brother and his soon to be wife out of

301
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Speaker 4: it so that they wedding is not ruined by the drama.

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Speaker 5: That's really when.

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Speaker 4: I realized that it was like maybe more than I

304
00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:56,079
Speaker 4: can handle it. I mean, my mom was even sharing

305
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Speaker 4: like sex details and things, and that was past what

306
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Speaker 4: I needed.

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00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:03,999
Speaker 1: How did sex details come up? And what was she

308
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Speaker 1: trying to tell you?

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Speaker 4: She was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.

310
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Speaker 4: I don't even like him anymore. I don't think I'm

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Speaker 4: in love with him, I don't even want to have

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Speaker 4: sex with him anymore.

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Speaker 1: Way too much information? Yeah, yeah, and What were you

314
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Speaker 1: doing when she was talking about all this. Did you

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Speaker 1: say to her, Hey, mom, I think this is something

316
00:16:24,719 --> 00:16:27,519
Speaker 1: you need to figure out with dad. How did you

317
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Speaker 1: respond to her?

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Speaker 5: I just tried to solve the immediate problem.

319
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Speaker 4: It was the night before my brother's wedding, so it

320
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Speaker 4: was just like trying to hear her out, trying to

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Speaker 4: get her calm enough so that tomorrow we could do

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Speaker 4: the wedding and it not be a total disaster.

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Speaker 1: Was this the first that you had heard of talk

324
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Speaker 1: of separation the night before your brother's wedding?

325
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Speaker 4: That trip, It was definitely the first time I had

326
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Speaker 4: ever heard of them, like even having issues. I don't

327
00:16:56,799 --> 00:16:59,799
Speaker 4: personally really remember them fighting when I was like a

328
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Speaker 4: kid or anything. They did separate one time when I

329
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Speaker 4: was really really young, maybe like two or three years old,

330
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Speaker 4: and I vaguely remember that, but my dad came back,

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Speaker 4: and I don't remember them fighting or anything after that.

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Speaker 1: But your dad did come to you with issues, so

333
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Speaker 1: you knew that they did fight. They just fought through you.

334
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Speaker 1: Is that what you mean when you say you don't

335
00:17:21,879 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 1: remember them fighting directly?

336
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I don't remember them yelling at each other,

337
00:17:25,959 --> 00:17:28,159
Speaker 4: like when you see the thing of the divorce parent

338
00:17:28,239 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 4: and they're like, oh, they're yelling, and everybody's yelling and

339
00:17:31,159 --> 00:17:32,319
Speaker 4: there's chaos everywhere.

340
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Speaker 5: I don't remember that at all.

341
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Speaker 4: It was more like they'd have an issue, they'd come

342
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:39,519
Speaker 4: to me, I'd try to solve the issue, then they

343
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Speaker 4: go back and then it would be fine again.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying that it was an Ireland over the

345
00:17:43,759 --> 00:17:47,239
Speaker 3: week of your brother's wedding that you started to realize

346
00:17:47,279 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 3: this is a bit much for me. Yeah, but I'm

347
00:17:49,999 --> 00:17:53,799
Speaker 3: curious about at what point, if you have yet, did

348
00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 3: you look back on all these years of mediating and realize, Wow,

349
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Speaker 3: it might have been a little hard for me to

350
00:18:01,239 --> 00:18:03,519
Speaker 3: figure out how I feel about things when I'm so

351
00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:05,959
Speaker 3: busy trying to fix other people's problems before I can

352
00:18:06,199 --> 00:18:08,199
Speaker 3: even get my finger on my own pulse.

353
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Speaker 5: I don't know that I have until recently.

354
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Speaker 4: There were other things going on with me that I

355
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:19,439
Speaker 4: was silently suffering with anxiety and some depression and stuff

356
00:18:19,479 --> 00:18:24,519
Speaker 4: that I just took on other people's problems because I

357
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:27,319
Speaker 4: could maybe fix them and that would make me feel better.

358
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Speaker 1: And you wouldn't have to think about your own.

359
00:18:30,439 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 4: Right, you know, And so it was not really a

360
00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:37,199
Speaker 4: problem because it solved my problems.

361
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Speaker 3: It was a distraction from your problems in a way.

362
00:18:42,199 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 3: How bad was the depression and the anxiety.

363
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Speaker 4: There was points in my life, especially when I first

364
00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:50,839
Speaker 4: had my daughter, when it was pretty bad. So my

365
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:56,199
Speaker 4: daughter suffers from anxiety and she wasn't diagnosed until probably

366
00:18:56,199 --> 00:18:58,519
Speaker 4: it's been probably eight.

367
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Speaker 5: Or nine months now.

368
00:18:59,919 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 4: But I didn't realize that that was me, that that

369
00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:06,479
Speaker 4: was my problem until I listened to the doctor tell

370
00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:10,479
Speaker 4: her in a kid way what anxiety was, and I

371
00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:11,799
Speaker 4: was like, that's me.

372
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Speaker 5: And then I went.

373
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Speaker 4: To my own doctor and got some medication and it's

374
00:19:16,439 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 4: helped a lot.

375
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Speaker 1: What is the communication like between you and your husband.

376
00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 4: He does not understand we grew up very differently. His

377
00:19:27,479 --> 00:19:31,199
Speaker 4: family does not talk about anything, like if they have

378
00:19:31,239 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 4: a problem with each other, they don't say it at all.

379
00:19:34,239 --> 00:19:36,759
Speaker 5: They just continue on like nothing happened.

380
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Speaker 1: Well, I want to say, Nicole, so did yours.

381
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Speaker 6: Yeah, So when you say it's very different, A lot

382
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Speaker 6: of times we marry people who maybe on the surface

383
00:19:45,959 --> 00:19:48,759
Speaker 6: they seem a little bit different, but there's some underlying

384
00:19:48,879 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 6: familiarity and they think that you both grew up in

385
00:19:51,439 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 6: families where things were not talked about directly.

386
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:58,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that does make sense because like it came through me,

387
00:19:58,999 --> 00:20:02,759
Speaker 4: but it never probably was actually spoken about to each other.

388
00:20:03,999 --> 00:20:06,319
Speaker 1: Right, So tell us how he is when it comes

389
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,239
Speaker 1: to communication with you. Since you say you avoid conflict,

390
00:20:09,719 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: I don't know what he does. Tell us about that interaction.

391
00:20:13,519 --> 00:20:15,839
Speaker 4: In terms of our marriage, it can sometimes be a

392
00:20:15,879 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 4: struggle because I feel like I want to talk about

393
00:20:20,239 --> 00:20:25,479
Speaker 4: things with him and bringing whatever is the issue, but

394
00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 4: I'm kind of yeller, and he will try to avoid

395
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 4: talking about things until it makes him.

396
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 5: So bad that he's like yell.

397
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Speaker 4: So oftentimes it's just a screaming match of no communication.

398
00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:42,599
Speaker 1: It sounds a lot like you are in the rule

399
00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:45,519
Speaker 1: of your dad, which is he wanted to talk about

400
00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,079
Speaker 1: things at least to resolve things. Maybe he wasn't a

401
00:20:48,159 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 1: huge talker, but he certainly wanted to resolve something by

402
00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 1: talking about it. And your mom, you said, will say

403
00:20:56,479 --> 00:20:58,599
Speaker 1: things like I don't want to talk about it, and

404
00:20:58,639 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit like what your husband does,

405
00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:04,799
Speaker 1: and it goes to the place of yelling, because people

406
00:21:04,919 --> 00:21:07,319
Speaker 1: yell when they feel like they're not being heard in

407
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,959
Speaker 1: a normal voice. So if they can't be heard by

408
00:21:09,999 --> 00:21:12,999
Speaker 1: having a calm conversation. Often what people do is they yell,

409
00:21:13,159 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 1: like now you have to pay attention, except people can't

410
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:18,599
Speaker 1: hear you when you're yelling. That's the problem. So the

411
00:21:18,719 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: louder you get, the less audible you become to people

412
00:21:21,919 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: because people don't respond to yelling and they start to

413
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:25,999
Speaker 1: tune you out right.

414
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 4: I hear that for sure, and I think that that's

415
00:21:28,719 --> 00:21:33,839
Speaker 4: definitely what happens, because he does often say, well, I'm

416
00:21:33,879 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 4: just going to go in the other room and I

417
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 4: don't want to fight with you anymore.

418
00:21:37,159 --> 00:21:38,559
Speaker 5: Is a common refrain.

419
00:21:38,999 --> 00:21:41,239
Speaker 3: So that's about the fighting. But what about the support?

420
00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:44,559
Speaker 3: In other words, you're distressed about the situation with your family.

421
00:21:44,999 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 3: Is he someone you can talk to about that? Does

422
00:21:47,399 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 3: he off the support to you about that?

423
00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 5: He will.

424
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 4: Sometimes he'll be like, oh, I can't believe your mom

425
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 4: or I can't believe your dad. But a lot of

426
00:21:54,639 --> 00:21:57,759
Speaker 4: the times he's like, I just don't understand.

427
00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 3: But do you tell him here's what happened, or do

428
00:22:00,999 --> 00:22:03,959
Speaker 3: you say to him, here's what happened, and here's how

429
00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:04,599
Speaker 3: I feel.

430
00:22:05,679 --> 00:22:07,319
Speaker 5: I think it's a combination of both.

431
00:22:07,399 --> 00:22:10,599
Speaker 4: I definitely say like, this is what happened and try

432
00:22:10,639 --> 00:22:14,079
Speaker 4: to let Sometimes inform his own opinion, and then sometimes

433
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 4: I'm like, no, this is making me upset, or I

434
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 4: can't believe mom's doing this. She's acting so crazy, which

435
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 4: would obviously be like my opinion.

436
00:22:21,999 --> 00:22:23,959
Speaker 1: I think what Guy is saying is that there's a

437
00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: difference between reporting the events and talking about what's going

438
00:22:28,439 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 1: on with you. So if you're reporting the events, you're

439
00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:35,239
Speaker 1: talking about them. But if you're telling your husband this

440
00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: is making me so stressed out, this is making me

441
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 1: so anxious, this is feeling overwhelming to me. Do you

442
00:22:42,239 --> 00:22:44,519
Speaker 1: ever say anything like that to him? So it becomes

443
00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:48,279
Speaker 1: about you and your experience, not about the specific incident

444
00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:49,959
Speaker 1: that happened with your parents.

445
00:22:50,679 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, not very often, to be honest, Every once in

446
00:22:53,719 --> 00:22:56,759
Speaker 4: a while, if I'm super stressed or like, especially during

447
00:22:56,839 --> 00:22:59,079
Speaker 4: all this divorced stuff, the couple times I was like,

448
00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 4: I just don't know how I can handle all this.

449
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 5: I'm stressed out.

450
00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 4: And at that time too, I just started a new job,

451
00:23:04,159 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 4: probably like six weeks ago, and then my daughter had

452
00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 4: COVID for before that, so it was really loll at once,

453
00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 4: and there was a.

454
00:23:14,399 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 5: Couple times where I just said, I don't know if

455
00:23:15,879 --> 00:23:16,559
Speaker 5: I can handle this.

456
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: How did he respond when you told him, I don't

457
00:23:18,639 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: know if I can handle this, he.

458
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,839
Speaker 4: Would say something like, go take a bath, like that's

459
00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:24,599
Speaker 4: kind of my thing is to take a bath. Or

460
00:23:24,639 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 4: he would say go upstairs because our bedroom is upstairs,

461
00:23:28,159 --> 00:23:30,519
Speaker 4: so just like, go upstairs and be alone is the intent.

462
00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:33,559
Speaker 4: Or go lay down if you need. But I just

463
00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 4: don't say it very often.

464
00:23:34,719 --> 00:23:37,839
Speaker 3: I guess I think, Nicole, that you're replicating this dynamic

465
00:23:37,879 --> 00:23:42,799
Speaker 3: from childhood, where this conflict around you served as a

466
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 3: distraction so that you didn't have to deal with whatever

467
00:23:46,239 --> 00:23:49,799
Speaker 3: distress or pain you were having. And this is a

468
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,519
Speaker 3: little bit the way you communicate with your husband today.

469
00:23:52,639 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 3: You tell him about the conflict around you, and you

470
00:23:55,479 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 3: emphasize very little the emotional impact on how you feel

471
00:23:59,919 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: or the distress it might raise in you. Now when

472
00:24:02,159 --> 00:24:04,559
Speaker 3: you do, he seems to respond and say, hey, go

473
00:24:04,639 --> 00:24:07,479
Speaker 3: do the things you find soothing and comforting. But you

474
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:10,599
Speaker 3: tend to devote to the narrative. If he is what happened,

475
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:14,799
Speaker 3: isn't it chocking? Isn't it upsetting? And that doesn't really

476
00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:18,319
Speaker 3: put you in touch or him in touch with the

477
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 3: emotional impact on you.

478
00:24:20,879 --> 00:24:25,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, when he tells you go take a bath or

479
00:24:25,719 --> 00:24:29,759
Speaker 1: go upstairs and rest. Does that make you feel better

480
00:24:29,879 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: or do you feel more alone? I'm wondering what you're

481
00:24:33,399 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: wanting in those moments, because it sounds like what he's

482
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 1: saying is I hear that you're upset and then kind

483
00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: of go deal with it, as opposed to how can

484
00:24:44,439 --> 00:24:46,999
Speaker 1: I help? How can I be there for you? What

485
00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:50,039
Speaker 1: can I do to help you through this?

486
00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:53,279
Speaker 5: Can I say that it's like fifty to fifty? Sometimes

487
00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm.

488
00:24:54,239 --> 00:24:56,999
Speaker 4: Definitely alone in it and not like I'm the only

489
00:24:57,039 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 4: one who has to deal with all this. Yeah, you know,

490
00:25:00,399 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 4: And sometimes I'm just like, Okay, I'm so stressed out

491
00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:05,319
Speaker 4: that I do need a break from my family and

492
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,039
Speaker 4: my husband, and I need time to just digest everything alone.

493
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: You know, it does even if you need that time.

494
00:25:12,999 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: Though you mentioned feeling alone in this, I imagine that

495
00:25:16,159 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: at some point you'd want some connection that even if

496
00:25:19,719 --> 00:25:22,759
Speaker 1: in that moment you need to digest it or go

497
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: take a bath or calm down a little bit in

498
00:25:25,439 --> 00:25:27,999
Speaker 1: a way that feels good to you, I imagine that's

499
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:28,519
Speaker 1: not enough.

500
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:29,759
Speaker 5: I would agree.

501
00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 4: I think that's part of the reason why I wrote

502
00:25:31,439 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 4: the letter initially too, is because I don't know how

503
00:25:35,199 --> 00:25:37,559
Speaker 4: to deal with all this stuff that's coming at me.

504
00:25:38,199 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 4: I feel like now as an adult, I'm learning things

505
00:25:40,759 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 4: about myself, you know, and then I don't know how

506
00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: it'll sort out my own feelings to separate them from

507
00:25:48,399 --> 00:25:53,039
Speaker 4: everybody else's. Like, prior to this, I would definitely be

508
00:25:53,159 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 4: like the kind of person who was like, Mom's mad

509
00:25:55,919 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 4: at my sister. So I'm going to be like, Mom's

510
00:25:57,679 --> 00:25:59,039
Speaker 4: going to come to me and say, well, I can't

511
00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 4: believe she did this and that, and I'd be like, yeah,

512
00:26:01,639 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 4: it's crazy, you know.

513
00:26:02,679 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 5: Maybe you should say X y Z.

514
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 4: And then my sister would come to me and she'd

515
00:26:07,399 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 4: be like, well, during that same fight, did X y Z.

516
00:26:10,199 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 5: And I'd be like, yeah, that's crazy, you know.

517
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 3: Like a with all sides, I think you're really craving

518
00:26:16,879 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: some support, some connections, some understanding. When you play that

519
00:26:20,999 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 3: role in the family, there's always a fantasy that maybe

520
00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:27,079
Speaker 3: someone can do that for me too, Maybe someone can

521
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 3: be my therapist, maybe somebody could be my support. And

522
00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 3: I'm saying that the habit you've gotten into is that

523
00:26:35,559 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 3: the shiny object of the conflict or the other person's

524
00:26:38,479 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 3: needs distracts you, takes your eye off the ball of

525
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: your feelings, and so you don't lead with your feelings.

526
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 3: You're saying now you're getting more in touch with them

527
00:26:48,199 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 3: yourself good. It's a necessary step, But the second, equally

528
00:26:51,999 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: important one is to be able to communicate that to

529
00:26:55,199 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 3: a person who can hear it and who can make

530
00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:01,759
Speaker 3: you feel heard. And perhaps your husband can do some

531
00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:03,799
Speaker 3: of that. It doesn't sound like he's the best at it,

532
00:27:03,879 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: he might be able to learn. I'm curious if there's

533
00:27:06,439 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 3: anyone else in your life with whom you can sally

534
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 3: just talk about how you feel without having to surround

535
00:27:13,519 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 3: it by the conflicts of others. Is there someone like

536
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: that in your life.

537
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 4: I do have one really good female friend who I

538
00:27:21,239 --> 00:27:24,519
Speaker 4: feel like I can tell everything to in our lives.

539
00:27:24,919 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 4: My husband and her husband went to kindergarten together and

540
00:27:28,199 --> 00:27:31,559
Speaker 4: have been friends since, but we always say we feel

541
00:27:31,599 --> 00:27:34,799
Speaker 4: like we would have been friends on our own without

542
00:27:35,439 --> 00:27:39,319
Speaker 4: having met through them. And I definitely feel like I

543
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 4: can tell her almost everything unfiltered, even with my husband

544
00:27:43,719 --> 00:27:45,959
Speaker 4: and I's relationships. Sometimes I need somebody to talk to

545
00:27:45,959 --> 00:27:49,599
Speaker 4: you about that, and she's definitely there for me whenever

546
00:27:49,639 --> 00:27:49,999
Speaker 4: I need.

547
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 1: How does she respond to you that's different from the

548
00:27:53,959 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: way that your own family members respond to you.

549
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 4: She'll say like like, yeah, I totally get it, I

550
00:27:59,759 --> 00:28:02,759
Speaker 4: totally understand, or she'll come back with an example from

551
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:03,519
Speaker 4: her own family.

552
00:28:04,439 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 5: Whenever I have the.

553
00:28:05,399 --> 00:28:08,839
Speaker 4: Opportunity to spend time with her, and it's just like

554
00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: her and.

555
00:28:09,159 --> 00:28:11,839
Speaker 5: A, I always feel better leaving.

556
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,079
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is that you feel seen

557
00:28:15,719 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 1: and you feel understood.

558
00:28:17,199 --> 00:28:19,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, for sure, heard.

559
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: Seen, understood all of that, right.

560
00:28:22,439 --> 00:28:25,039
Speaker 5: Heard for sure. Heard is a big one.

561
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, herd is a big one.

562
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 5: Yeah.

563
00:28:26,999 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 3: And emotionally validated, which is a very important term here.

564
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,319
Speaker 3: Emotional validation means that the person makes you feel that

565
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,559
Speaker 3: they really get how you're feeling, They really understand the

566
00:28:36,639 --> 00:28:40,159
Speaker 3: emotional component. And that emotional validation I think is so

567
00:28:40,199 --> 00:28:42,159
Speaker 3: sweet for you because you get so little of it.

568
00:28:42,239 --> 00:28:45,159
Speaker 3: So I imagine that's a very important relationship in that way.

569
00:28:45,999 --> 00:28:49,999
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You said that your parents are

570
00:28:49,999 --> 00:28:52,399
Speaker 1: in the middle of a separation. So how long has

571
00:28:52,399 --> 00:28:53,159
Speaker 1: this been going on?

572
00:28:53,999 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 5: Like three months? It's been about three months.

573
00:28:57,959 --> 00:29:00,439
Speaker 1: Before this, your father would come to you sometimes with

574
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: conflict with your mom. Would your mom come to you

575
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:07,599
Speaker 1: before this with conflict that she was having with your

576
00:29:07,679 --> 00:29:09,279
Speaker 1: dad or only since the separation.

577
00:29:09,999 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 4: I would say since we went back to that trip

578
00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,199
Speaker 4: in Ireland. That's really when she felt comfortable enough to

579
00:29:15,239 --> 00:29:18,799
Speaker 4: talk to me about my dad, which I found really

580
00:29:19,159 --> 00:29:23,439
Speaker 4: hard because even though I wasn't as close with my dad,

581
00:29:23,479 --> 00:29:27,079
Speaker 4: he's still my dad, you know, And I still love him,

582
00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:30,559
Speaker 4: and I still have feelings about him, and I don't

583
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:32,839
Speaker 4: want to look upon him a certain way because that's

584
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 4: how she feels.

585
00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:36,519
Speaker 3: But that what you said would have been the perfect

586
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:39,399
Speaker 3: thing to say when she comes to you. I want

587
00:29:39,399 --> 00:29:41,359
Speaker 3: to still be able to have a relationship with him.

588
00:29:41,679 --> 00:29:43,839
Speaker 3: But actually it leads me to a question, since you

589
00:29:43,999 --> 00:29:48,919
Speaker 3: do get some satisfaction from being in that mediative therapist role,

590
00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 3: is that something you're interested in giving up in the family. Yeah,

591
00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:55,119
Speaker 3: quitting the therapy job.

592
00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,679
Speaker 5: I think that my own family now.

593
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:03,799
Speaker 4: So I have an eleven year old, she's got ADHD

594
00:30:03,959 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 4: and she's got anxiety, and she's got other things going on.

595
00:30:08,959 --> 00:30:11,159
Speaker 4: And then and I have my husband and my own

596
00:30:11,239 --> 00:30:15,879
Speaker 4: relationship with him that sometimes I feel like struggles. I

597
00:30:15,879 --> 00:30:18,599
Speaker 4: would like to be able to focus on us in

598
00:30:18,639 --> 00:30:23,559
Speaker 4: our little unit, versus focusing on the wider unit of

599
00:30:23,639 --> 00:30:25,279
Speaker 4: my immediate family.

600
00:30:26,199 --> 00:30:28,879
Speaker 3: Okay, because you know, when therapists want to resign, they

601
00:30:28,919 --> 00:30:32,999
Speaker 3: have to find substitute therapists to transfer their client tell to.

602
00:30:33,399 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 3: And if you do resign from your role, you might

603
00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:36,639
Speaker 3: need to do some referring.

604
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:38,759
Speaker 5: I've tried to refer.

605
00:30:40,159 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 3: You are such a good therapist.

606
00:30:43,719 --> 00:30:46,279
Speaker 4: I have been laying on my parents to go to

607
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:49,399
Speaker 4: marriage counseling for since the whole Ireland thing.

608
00:30:49,439 --> 00:30:50,879
Speaker 5: I was like, you guys need to go to counseling.

609
00:30:50,919 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 5: You need to go to counseling, you need to go

610
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:54,519
Speaker 5: to counseling, go to a therapist. What do they say?

611
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:57,079
Speaker 3: They said, we have a therapist? Why would we A

612
00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:57,439
Speaker 3: lot of.

613
00:30:57,399 --> 00:30:59,279
Speaker 4: Times they would be like, oh, yeah, we're going to

614
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:01,759
Speaker 4: and then never make the appointment. Then I kind of

615
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 4: pushed my dad and I was like, okay, obviously Mom's

616
00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:05,839
Speaker 4: not going to make the appointment.

617
00:31:05,919 --> 00:31:06,639
Speaker 5: You need to make it.

618
00:31:07,239 --> 00:31:11,599
Speaker 4: They finally did start, but they went to five sessions

619
00:31:11,639 --> 00:31:12,599
Speaker 4: and then they're done.

620
00:31:12,639 --> 00:31:14,999
Speaker 1: No, what does that mean? They're done? Since they confide

621
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,519
Speaker 1: in you, which one of them wanted to stop or

622
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:18,679
Speaker 1: did they both and why?

623
00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:23,759
Speaker 4: Apparently the therapist was like, how do you guys feel?

624
00:31:24,639 --> 00:31:28,839
Speaker 4: And my dad and mom agreed that they were fine

625
00:31:28,959 --> 00:31:32,559
Speaker 4: with quitting. They keep saying that they have this amicable

626
00:31:33,199 --> 00:31:37,479
Speaker 4: divorce or whatever, but I know there are still issues

627
00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:39,359
Speaker 4: in it and they haven't solved them.

628
00:31:39,879 --> 00:31:42,039
Speaker 1: They didn't like the fact that the therapist asked them

629
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:45,639
Speaker 1: to kind of go inside and figure out how they feel.

630
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 1: Is that what happened.

631
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:50,359
Speaker 4: I think they just felt like they solved all their

632
00:31:50,399 --> 00:31:52,839
Speaker 4: problems in their five sessions.

633
00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:55,599
Speaker 1: So if they solved all their problems, why are they

634
00:31:55,599 --> 00:31:56,759
Speaker 1: coming to you with problems?

635
00:31:57,999 --> 00:31:58,439
Speaker 5: I don't know.

636
00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:00,279
Speaker 1: I mean, have you ever asked them that question? If

637
00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,519
Speaker 1: you solved all your problems in counseling, then why are

638
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 1: you coming to me with these problems?

639
00:32:07,399 --> 00:32:09,839
Speaker 4: I think they are still looking for the agreement that

640
00:32:09,879 --> 00:32:10,999
Speaker 4: the other person is wrong.

641
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:12,399
Speaker 5: That's coming from.

642
00:32:12,199 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: Me, right, and that will not come from the therapist,

643
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,359
Speaker 1: And that is why that did not work out for them. Right.

644
00:32:18,639 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 3: If you did quit as a therapist for your family,

645
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:25,799
Speaker 3: who might be upset with you most if you did that?

646
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:31,279
Speaker 4: I think it would be my mom by far, by far, Yeah,

647
00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:34,599
Speaker 4: she is the most upset person in the household or

648
00:32:34,679 --> 00:32:35,159
Speaker 4: the family.

649
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:38,399
Speaker 1: I think that they come to you for two reasons, Nicole.

650
00:32:38,439 --> 00:32:41,679
Speaker 1: I think the first reason is that they are so

651
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: invested in their respective positions, and you are so invested

652
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:50,839
Speaker 1: in avoiding conflict and people pleasing that they know that

653
00:32:50,919 --> 00:32:54,439
Speaker 1: whatever they say you will agree with them. You will

654
00:32:54,479 --> 00:32:57,879
Speaker 1: say you're right, You're right, that other person was completely

655
00:32:57,919 --> 00:33:02,559
Speaker 1: off base. You are right, And that feels really good

656
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,759
Speaker 1: in the moment, But it doesn't help people to reflect

657
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,079
Speaker 1: on their role in what happened. It doesn't help them

658
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 1: to perspective, take which is really important for any kind

659
00:33:13,999 --> 00:33:16,839
Speaker 1: of communication, what might the other person have been thinking

660
00:33:16,919 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: or feeling, and so in that way, you're not actually

661
00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:24,999
Speaker 1: helping them. And then you do offer them something concrete,

662
00:33:25,119 --> 00:33:28,159
Speaker 1: like hey, here's how you can approach the other person,

663
00:33:28,639 --> 00:33:30,399
Speaker 1: but you see, it doesn't get very far because they

664
00:33:30,479 --> 00:33:32,799
Speaker 1: keep coming back to you. The one part of the

665
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,319
Speaker 1: puzzle that I don't understand as well is your sister.

666
00:33:36,399 --> 00:33:38,359
Speaker 1: You said in your letter your sister isn't quite on

667
00:33:38,439 --> 00:33:40,519
Speaker 1: board with this. I don't know what you meant by that,

668
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:43,079
Speaker 1: and also how your sister comes to you. Has that

669
00:33:43,199 --> 00:33:45,159
Speaker 1: been a thing your whole life too, or is that

670
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:46,799
Speaker 1: related to the separation.

671
00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:50,079
Speaker 4: It's not necessarily related to the separation. I think it

672
00:33:50,159 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 4: definitely started to occur once she needed more advice after

673
00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:56,679
Speaker 4: she had her child, because I had already done it first.

674
00:33:57,439 --> 00:33:59,799
Speaker 4: She does not think that they have tried hard enough,

675
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:02,279
Speaker 4: that they have put in the work, that they have

676
00:34:02,479 --> 00:34:05,799
Speaker 4: done everything they could ever possibly do before they walk

677
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 4: the aisle to divorce.

678
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:10,519
Speaker 1: What comes to mind when you talk about your sister's

679
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: feelings about this is how invested she is in keeping

680
00:34:14,799 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: your parents together. And a lot of people don't talk

681
00:34:17,319 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: about what it's like when you're an adult and your

682
00:34:19,919 --> 00:34:23,079
Speaker 1: parents are getting divorced. People talk a lot about what

683
00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:26,519
Speaker 1: it's like when there are kids in the house and

684
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: the parents are getting divorced. And so she's not able

685
00:34:29,879 --> 00:34:32,919
Speaker 1: to really articulate her feelings. She has a lot of

686
00:34:32,919 --> 00:34:36,079
Speaker 1: grief and loss around this. She's really struggling with it.

687
00:34:36,319 --> 00:34:40,159
Speaker 1: And I wonder about you, what are your feelings as

688
00:34:40,439 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: an adult whose parents are getting divorced. How are you

689
00:34:43,999 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: feeling about this change in your family.

690
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:49,999
Speaker 4: I'd like to say that my study line has always

691
00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:52,119
Speaker 4: been what will make them happy will make me happy.

692
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 5: But that's pretty much a lie. And I know that

693
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 5: when I say it, when it comes out of my mouth.

694
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,559
Speaker 4: I'm like, I know I'm lying to whoever's asking me

695
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:03,959
Speaker 4: or talking to me about it. I feel similar to

696
00:35:03,999 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 4: her in that I don't feel like they've put in

697
00:35:05,759 --> 00:35:08,599
Speaker 4: the work or done the things that are required to

698
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:12,559
Speaker 4: get a divorce. It's not like one cheated on the other,

699
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:14,119
Speaker 4: and it's some egregious offense.

700
00:35:14,359 --> 00:35:17,119
Speaker 3: Talk about your feelings, not about them. You go to

701
00:35:17,159 --> 00:35:20,679
Speaker 3: them so automatically, just you how you feel about it.

702
00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 5: I'm upset about it. I think the reality is that

703
00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 5: I'm upset.

704
00:35:25,959 --> 00:35:27,479
Speaker 1: Tell us what upset means.

705
00:35:28,279 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 4: I feel a lot of anger, to be honest, anger

706
00:35:31,799 --> 00:35:36,519
Speaker 4: towards them, like I said, for not having tried. They've

707
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:39,079
Speaker 4: been married for thirty nine years, and I don't know

708
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 4: how to say, like get it together and work on this.

709
00:35:42,439 --> 00:35:44,679
Speaker 1: But you are having some feelings around this, so you

710
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,119
Speaker 1: keep going back to them, like guys said, and so

711
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: anger is kind of the go to feeling for a

712
00:35:49,279 --> 00:35:51,639
Speaker 1: lot of us. It's the most accessible one. It's right

713
00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: there in front of us. But underneath the anger is

714
00:35:55,479 --> 00:36:00,519
Speaker 1: usually a more tender feeling, like hurt or sadness or loss.

715
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 4: I think that there's definitely some sadness and moss. It's

716
00:36:05,279 --> 00:36:09,079
Speaker 4: hard to imagine how things will be like our family.

717
00:36:10,359 --> 00:36:12,999
Speaker 4: I would like to say we're really close in general,

718
00:36:13,319 --> 00:36:17,119
Speaker 4: you know, and so like we take vacations.

719
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 5: Together in all of my years, even as.

720
00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 4: An adult, this is the first Christmas we haven't been

721
00:36:21,799 --> 00:36:26,639
Speaker 4: together as a group. You know. I talk to my

722
00:36:26,759 --> 00:36:29,959
Speaker 4: sister daily. I talk to my parents daily or every

723
00:36:29,959 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: other day, and so I'm going to lose that. That's

724
00:36:32,799 --> 00:36:36,999
Speaker 4: what it feels like, Like that's not the same. That's

725
00:36:37,439 --> 00:36:38,159
Speaker 4: sad for me.

726
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: It is, and as adults, a lot of times people

727
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: feel like I can't really talk about that or I

728
00:36:44,919 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: shouldn't be feeling this because it's not like I'm ten

729
00:36:48,399 --> 00:36:50,679
Speaker 1: and I have to go between houses. You have your

730
00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: own family, you have your own life, and at the

731
00:36:53,319 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: same time, you are losing your family as you knew it.

732
00:36:57,999 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: You're losing all of the things that go along with

733
00:37:00,439 --> 00:37:01,639
Speaker 1: your parents being together.

734
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 4: It's so hard to I don't understand how to say

735
00:37:06,879 --> 00:37:08,959
Speaker 4: that to people and then not have them look at

736
00:37:08,959 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 4: me like I'm not ten, you know, like I'm an adult.

737
00:37:12,399 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 4: You should understand because you're old enough to understand why

738
00:37:15,959 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 4: they're getting divorced.

739
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:20,519
Speaker 3: Well, the understanding doesn't change how you feel about it,

740
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:24,559
Speaker 3: because the irony is that for adults, when their parents

741
00:37:24,639 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 3: get divorced, one of the things they often feel is like, wow,

742
00:37:28,479 --> 00:37:33,119
Speaker 3: I'm kind of losing the security of the family unit,

743
00:37:33,399 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 3: even if it was a conflictual one, even if it

744
00:37:35,839 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 3: was one that they didn't turn to for security. But

745
00:37:38,279 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: there's something about just knowing it's there, that knowing mom

746
00:37:41,839 --> 00:37:44,999
Speaker 3: and dad are there. There's something about the security and

747
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: the historicness of it that when you lose it, it

748
00:37:48,359 --> 00:37:52,199
Speaker 3: can feel like it really shakes the foundations in some way.

749
00:37:52,439 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 3: And again adults feel like, well, it shouldn't do that,

750
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,639
Speaker 3: but of course it should, because adults have all the

751
00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:02,039
Speaker 3: same feelings that children do about that unit getting disrupted.

752
00:38:03,279 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 4: I definitely think you're right about the security too, and like,

753
00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:10,079
Speaker 4: there's something about our house that we live in. My

754
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:13,479
Speaker 4: grandma lived there, that was where we had Christmas every year,

755
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:18,519
Speaker 4: and now it's like is that my home anymore?

756
00:38:18,839 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: That sense of home is so important. A lot of

757
00:38:21,959 --> 00:38:25,039
Speaker 1: adults say, you know, even if one parent stays in

758
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 1: that home, it doesn't feel the same. It feels very

759
00:38:28,439 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: different when it's only one parent living there, or when

760
00:38:31,319 --> 00:38:34,159
Speaker 1: that house is sold and neither parent is living there.

761
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,199
Speaker 1: You lose that peace of your childhood, that piece of

762
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 1: your history, and that sense of security of that's where

763
00:38:40,879 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: we go for the holidays, that's where our gatherings are,

764
00:38:43,439 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: that's where my room was.

765
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:49,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a hugely significant loss in that way, because

766
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,639
Speaker 3: you lose the traditions and the rituals that define the

767
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 3: family unit and define your childhood and your early adulthood

768
00:38:55,279 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: and your adolescents. So it's a big loss for adults,

769
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 3: it's a big loss for you, you know. When that happens,

770
00:39:00,479 --> 00:39:03,519
Speaker 3: and always completely right. Sometimes the house can be the same,

771
00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:05,079
Speaker 3: but with only one of them in it, it can

772
00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:08,479
Speaker 3: actually feel sad to be in that house rather than comforting.

773
00:39:09,759 --> 00:39:12,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it's definitely like I've been over

774
00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:15,959
Speaker 4: there since my mom has moved out, and it's different.

775
00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 4: Even talking about it is different, Like prior I would

776
00:39:19,279 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 4: say something like, oh, I'm going to my house or

777
00:39:21,439 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 4: I'm going you know whatever.

778
00:39:22,879 --> 00:39:25,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big change. Even the way you talk

779
00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:26,159
Speaker 1: about it changes.

780
00:39:26,479 --> 00:39:30,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that you're starting to see that when

781
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 3: you're really thinking about how you feel that you have

782
00:39:33,399 --> 00:39:38,199
Speaker 3: a lot of feelings about them getting separated and divorced,

783
00:39:38,879 --> 00:39:41,079
Speaker 3: and when you spend time with your feelings and give

784
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 3: yourself a chance to figure them out, then it might

785
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:47,119
Speaker 3: actually take you to a point where you are even

786
00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 3: less willing to be that mediator because no, no, actually,

787
00:39:51,479 --> 00:39:53,599
Speaker 3: I have very strong feelings here. I want to focus

788
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 3: on mine. I don't want to have to ignore mine

789
00:39:55,359 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 3: to focus on theirs.

790
00:39:57,159 --> 00:39:58,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree.

791
00:39:58,399 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 4: I think you're right, And I think in the last

792
00:40:01,919 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 4: couple of years, and this is where it's really become

793
00:40:03,919 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 4: like too much, you know, because I don't deal with

794
00:40:08,879 --> 00:40:10,599
Speaker 4: what I I'm feeling with.

795
00:40:10,879 --> 00:40:14,519
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's almost like you're trying to talk your

796
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:17,679
Speaker 1: sister out of the very feelings that you have about

797
00:40:17,679 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: your parents' divorce so that neither of you has to

798
00:40:20,359 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: feel them.

799
00:40:21,919 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: My sister as a person is very upfront and very like,

800
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 4: this is how I feel. And there's been some of

801
00:40:30,399 --> 00:40:33,119
Speaker 4: that with my mom back because my mom initially left

802
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:36,199
Speaker 4: the house and got an apartment, and so there was

803
00:40:36,279 --> 00:40:40,599
Speaker 4: definitely some initial tension there, Like she told her up

804
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: front how she felt.

805
00:40:42,839 --> 00:40:44,559
Speaker 1: When you say she told her upfront how she felt,

806
00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:46,159
Speaker 1: she might have said, I feel like you're not really

807
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:49,039
Speaker 1: giving this marriage a try. That's different from I feel

808
00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:54,159
Speaker 1: so sad that the family is coming apart in this way.

809
00:40:54,279 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 4: You're right, she said something similar to, I don't think

810
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:58,959
Speaker 4: you've tried everything you can try, and I think you're

811
00:40:58,959 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 4: giving up.

812
00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:02,039
Speaker 1: But that's not talking about how she feels.

813
00:41:02,479 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, the other part of what happens when the children

814
00:41:06,479 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: are adults when their parents divorce is the pen don't

815
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,159
Speaker 3: think it's that important to worry about the kids. Well,

816
00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:15,119
Speaker 3: our kids are adults. We can just be concerned about

817
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:16,999
Speaker 3: us and get them to help us. We don't need

818
00:41:17,039 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: to be concerned about their feelings. And it sounds like

819
00:41:19,439 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 3: both your parents are not.

820
00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 5: I agree.

821
00:41:21,959 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 4: Like my mom when she moved out, she said something

822
00:41:26,799 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 4: to the effect of I'll be fine, It'll be okay,

823
00:41:29,319 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 4: I'll be fine. What I told her was, we have

824
00:41:31,959 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 4: feelings too, you know, like we're allowed to have feelings

825
00:41:35,279 --> 00:41:38,679
Speaker 4: too about this. This is a big thing for us too.

826
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,079
Speaker 4: And she was like, oh, I know, I know, or something.

827
00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 4: But I don't think that she actually took it on board.

828
00:41:45,879 --> 00:41:47,679
Speaker 1: Well, right, what a lot of people do with their

829
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: adult children is they treat them as mediators, friends, confidants. Yeah,

830
00:41:53,919 --> 00:41:56,199
Speaker 1: as opposed to Wait a minute, what is your experience

831
00:41:56,279 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 1: of this. I don't know that anybody who's actually asked

832
00:41:58,439 --> 00:41:58,679
Speaker 1: you that.

833
00:41:59,959 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 5: No, I don't think so.

834
00:42:06,799 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 3: So, Nicole.

835
00:42:07,319 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: We have some advice for you that we'd like you

836
00:42:08,879 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: to try. And what we'd like you to do is,

837
00:42:13,279 --> 00:42:19,119
Speaker 1: we would like you to resign as the family therapist, okay,

838
00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:21,999
Speaker 1: because it's not really your role. And here's how we'd

839
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: like you to do that. We'd like you to start

840
00:42:24,759 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: with your sister. It sounds like the two of you

841
00:42:28,399 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: are actually experiencing much of the same thing, and so

842
00:42:31,359 --> 00:42:33,639
Speaker 1: instead of becoming her therapist, you can go to her

843
00:42:33,679 --> 00:42:37,599
Speaker 1: and say, listen, I've been thinking about all of the

844
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 1: things you've been coming to me with and I realized

845
00:42:39,919 --> 00:42:43,079
Speaker 1: that I've been trying to talk you out of the

846
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: way that you're feeling, but in fact, I feel exactly

847
00:42:46,759 --> 00:42:51,199
Speaker 1: the same way. And maybe the two of us can

848
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,999
Speaker 1: be a support for each other as we talk about

849
00:42:55,639 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: not how to save mom and dad's marriage, but how

850
00:42:58,879 --> 00:43:03,159
Speaker 1: we're actually feeling about whatever they decide to do. And

851
00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: we haven't really had that, and I think it would

852
00:43:05,279 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: bring us closer and I think it would help us

853
00:43:07,279 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: through this really difficult time in our family. And then

854
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: ask her how she feels about that and see what

855
00:43:14,799 --> 00:43:17,639
Speaker 1: happens between you. I have a feeling she's going to

856
00:43:17,679 --> 00:43:21,079
Speaker 1: feel very relieved. Yeah, And you can tell her every

857
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:23,999
Speaker 1: time you come to me with a plan about how

858
00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:25,599
Speaker 1: we can get mom and dad to do more to

859
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:28,039
Speaker 1: save their marriage. I'm not going to be on board

860
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:30,999
Speaker 1: with that because I think that it's not our role

861
00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: to decide what they should do in their marriage. But

862
00:43:35,399 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 1: we can be together as the kids in the family

863
00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: right to talk about how we're feeling about what's going

864
00:43:40,839 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 1: on in our family and all the different ways that

865
00:43:42,919 --> 00:43:46,639
Speaker 1: this does impact us. And I'd like to be there

866
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: to support how you're feeling, and I hope you can

867
00:43:49,279 --> 00:43:51,079
Speaker 1: be there to support how I'm feeling.

868
00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, makes sense and it sounds good like I can

869
00:43:55,319 --> 00:43:55,599
Speaker 5: do it.

870
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:59,039
Speaker 1: That will create a new dynamic for you and your

871
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: sister to really be those people for each other and

872
00:44:01,959 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: learn how to do that for each other.

873
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:07,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I need that.

874
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 1: That's the resignation, as it goes with your sister, as

875
00:44:10,479 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: it goes with your mother. When you resign, it's going

876
00:44:13,399 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: to be a little trickier.

877
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can.

878
00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:20,679
Speaker 1: Say, Mom, I know that you're going through a really

879
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: hard time right now, and I know that sometimes you

880
00:44:24,359 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: come to me because you need some support, But I

881
00:44:28,879 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: want to let you know that this is a hard

882
00:44:30,399 --> 00:44:34,639
Speaker 1: time for everybody in the family and that One of

883
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: the things that will help all of us through this

884
00:44:36,799 --> 00:44:41,559
Speaker 1: is if we can feel like there's some stability in

885
00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: our family and for our relationship. That stability is that

886
00:44:45,279 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: you're still my mom and I'm still your daughter, And

887
00:44:50,279 --> 00:44:53,199
Speaker 1: in order for us to preserve that mother daughter relationship

888
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: and for it to be really strong, I can't be

889
00:44:57,999 --> 00:45:00,999
Speaker 1: a part of what happens in your divorce. That that

890
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: has to be between you and Dad, and so I

891
00:45:05,359 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 1: can support you in other ways we can have our relationship,

892
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: but once you start talking about what's going on with

893
00:45:11,319 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 1: you and Dad, I'm going to graciously decline continuing the

894
00:45:17,479 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: conversation because I'm not qualified to help you with that.

895
00:45:22,439 --> 00:45:25,519
Speaker 1: But a therapist would be. But it can't come to

896
00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: me because that will weaken our family and it will

897
00:45:29,399 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: weaken the relationship that you and I have. Right, and

898
00:45:33,399 --> 00:45:35,079
Speaker 1: maybe there will be room for you to hear how

899
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: I feel about this or maybe not, But I want

900
00:45:39,399 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: us to have a relationship where I am the daughter

901
00:45:41,999 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: and you work out what you need to work out

902
00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:46,119
Speaker 1: with Dad separate from me.

903
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it definitely makes sense. It's going to

904
00:45:51,759 --> 00:45:52,079
Speaker 5: be hard.

905
00:45:52,319 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: It's going to be hard, and it will need a

906
00:45:53,879 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: lot of reinforcement, because she will either withdraw in anger

907
00:45:58,439 --> 00:46:00,039
Speaker 1: and say, well, you're not there for me, you're not

908
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: supporting me, and she'll lash out in that way, and

909
00:46:03,359 --> 00:46:05,679
Speaker 1: you have to be able to withstand that and stand

910
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,639
Speaker 1: your ground in a very loving way. I know this

911
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: is hard, it's different. I really want you to find

912
00:46:11,439 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: someone you can talk to about this, and then she

913
00:46:13,959 --> 00:46:16,599
Speaker 1: may come back to you and try in different ways

914
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:19,559
Speaker 1: to kind of sneak it in the conversation, right, And

915
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,039
Speaker 1: every time she does that, you have to say mom again,

916
00:46:23,279 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 1: and you can joke with her. Mom, I want to

917
00:46:24,919 --> 00:46:28,639
Speaker 1: resign as the therapist, right right, And you keep using

918
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:31,519
Speaker 1: that as a catchphrase, I'm resigning as the family therapist.

919
00:46:31,759 --> 00:46:34,039
Speaker 1: I can't do it because I need to take care

920
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:39,039
Speaker 1: of myself too, and I want to preserve our relationship. Yeah, okay,

921
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 1: so those are the first two resignations.

922
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,599
Speaker 3: Well, the next one is your dad. And the conversation

923
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,159
Speaker 3: with your dad should be a simpler version, perhaps of

924
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 3: the one with your mom, because the relationship is a

925
00:46:50,919 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 3: little less complex. I think you need to lead with

926
00:46:54,799 --> 00:46:56,639
Speaker 3: the fact that you know, Dad, I've tried to be

927
00:46:56,679 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: supportive to you and to mom through the separation and divorced.

928
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 3: But I'd realized that when I do that, I don't

929
00:47:05,479 --> 00:47:09,119
Speaker 3: pay attention to how I feel about it. And when

930
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 3: I do start paying attention to how I feel about it,

931
00:47:11,759 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: it turns out I have a lot of feelings about it.

932
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 3: It turns out that I am sad about it, and

933
00:47:18,399 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 3: so it's very important for me that I pay attention

934
00:47:21,999 --> 00:47:24,639
Speaker 3: to how I feel. And I can't do that if

935
00:47:24,679 --> 00:47:28,519
Speaker 3: I'm supporting you. It distracts me from it. And I

936
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 3: want to be there for you, but as a daughter,

937
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:33,959
Speaker 3: and I can't be there for you as a divorce mediator.

938
00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:37,199
Speaker 3: So I'm letting you know that because I want us

939
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,119
Speaker 3: to be able to chat and we can hang out

940
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 3: and we can talk about anything but the divorce, right

941
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:49,079
Speaker 3: So that would be the messaging to him. The last

942
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:53,519
Speaker 3: person is your husband, because I'm going to tell you this.

943
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 3: When you resign as the family therapist, it is going

944
00:47:59,399 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 3: to feel like a big emotional brick has just been

945
00:48:03,999 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 3: dropped on you. You're thinking it might be like relief,

946
00:48:06,879 --> 00:48:09,639
Speaker 3: but it will be after that. At first, it's going

947
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:13,039
Speaker 3: to feel like a real loss, like you're betraying them,

948
00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:16,039
Speaker 3: you're abandoning them. You'll feel guilty you'll feel resentful, a

949
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 3: swirl will come up.

950
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:21,519
Speaker 1: And in addition, all of those feelings that you were

951
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: distracting yourself from by being the family therapist are going

952
00:48:25,839 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: to be much more accessible to you now.

953
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 3: Right and therefore you will need support. And so we

954
00:48:33,959 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 3: would also like you to talk to your husband and

955
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,159
Speaker 3: let him know that this is coming, and let him

956
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 3: know that he might find you really emotional when you're

957
00:48:43,959 --> 00:48:47,999
Speaker 3: having these conversations and that you could use his help

958
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 3: and support. And so what you're going to ask him

959
00:48:50,479 --> 00:48:53,679
Speaker 3: to do in those moments is I want to feel

960
00:48:54,279 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 3: that if I'm very upset, I can come to you

961
00:48:57,439 --> 00:49:00,079
Speaker 3: and tell you about how I'm feeling, because I think

962
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 3: because of his background, he might not know what to

963
00:49:02,759 --> 00:49:05,639
Speaker 3: do with all those big feelings you're having. So I'll

964
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:07,119
Speaker 3: give me a tip, and I would say to him,

965
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:08,959
Speaker 3: and when you see me upset and when I'm talking

966
00:49:08,999 --> 00:49:12,999
Speaker 3: about things, really, what I need from you most is

967
00:49:13,199 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 3: just listen and then when I'm finished, just put your

968
00:49:16,959 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 3: arms around me, give me a hug, let me know

969
00:49:19,959 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 3: that you understand that I'm upset. Let me know that

970
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:27,039
Speaker 3: you get that this is very, very difficult, and that

971
00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:29,559
Speaker 3: you're there for me. You don't have to solve anything.

972
00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:33,079
Speaker 3: You don't have to do anything. I don't want you

973
00:49:33,119 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 3: to suggest a bath or something like that, because I

974
00:49:35,839 --> 00:49:38,999
Speaker 3: can think of that myself. What I want is your

975
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 3: arms around me, and if you had any feelings about

976
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: what it feels like for me to be upset and

977
00:49:44,839 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: for you to listen to it, I'm happy to hear

978
00:49:47,439 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 3: them if you can share them. They might be difficult

979
00:49:49,279 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 3: for you, but if you have feelings about it, please

980
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:53,679
Speaker 3: do share them with me, because I want us to

981
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,079
Speaker 3: be able to talk a little bit more about our feelings.

982
00:49:57,119 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 3: We both need that practice. We both didn't do much

983
00:49:59,399 --> 00:50:02,119
Speaker 3: of it growing up, but it's important for us to

984
00:50:02,199 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: do so we can model it for our kids. So

985
00:50:04,759 --> 00:50:08,159
Speaker 3: we can have that kind of emotional dialogue with our kids,

986
00:50:08,399 --> 00:50:09,999
Speaker 3: and we can practice with one another.

987
00:50:11,359 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I agree.

988
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:16,559
Speaker 3: So those are the things we'd like you to do.

989
00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:18,999
Speaker 3: And start with your husband because we want him to

990
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,079
Speaker 3: be ready for the fallout from the others. So you

991
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:22,919
Speaker 3: want to start with.

992
00:50:22,919 --> 00:50:25,119
Speaker 5: Him, right, Yeah, I agree.

993
00:50:25,439 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: I think it.

994
00:50:26,639 --> 00:50:28,159
Speaker 5: I know I need to do it. It's just going

995
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:28,639
Speaker 5: to be hard.

996
00:50:28,919 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 3: It is.

997
00:50:29,639 --> 00:50:32,039
Speaker 1: It will be hard in the short term, as these

998
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: things are, but it will make things so much easier

999
00:50:35,439 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: in the long term. Yeah, okay, well let us know

1000
00:50:40,319 --> 00:50:40,959
Speaker 1: how it goes.

1001
00:50:41,279 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1002
00:50:46,439 --> 00:50:50,159
Speaker 3: I think Nicole was really ripe for this. I really

1003
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 3: think she was at the place where she realized, I

1004
00:50:52,959 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 3: need to start thinking about myself and my own feelings

1005
00:50:55,439 --> 00:50:59,039
Speaker 3: and not just cater to everyone else's. So I'm actually

1006
00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:01,599
Speaker 3: quite hopeful that this will be a change that is

1007
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 3: not just about her relationship with her parents, but her

1008
00:51:03,839 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: relationship with her emotions and her access to them all around.

1009
00:51:08,879 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, when people come to therapy, I'm always asking not

1010
00:51:12,399 --> 00:51:16,999
Speaker 1: just why are you here, but why now? Why this month,

1011
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,639
Speaker 1: this week did you decide to call me? And I

1012
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:22,959
Speaker 1: think that she wrote to us at the time that

1013
00:51:22,999 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: she was ready for change. I'm always assessing for readiness

1014
00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:30,039
Speaker 1: for change, and a lot of times people come in

1015
00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:33,599
Speaker 1: and they're wanting someone else to change, and I think

1016
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 1: what she's realizing is, wait a minute, I need to

1017
00:51:36,959 --> 00:51:41,679
Speaker 1: resign from this position. This is overwhelming for me. And

1018
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: so I'm very hopeful that this is going to open

1019
00:51:44,959 --> 00:51:47,079
Speaker 1: up all kinds of doors for her in terms of

1020
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 1: accessing her own feelings, getting her needs met in different ways,

1021
00:51:50,839 --> 00:51:55,039
Speaker 1: and taking her out of that incredibly stressful situation that

1022
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: she has been in for a lot of her life.

1023
00:51:57,679 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 3: Right really untenable. So I'm very hopeful for her and

1024
00:52:00,959 --> 00:52:08,079
Speaker 3: look forward to hearing what's going to happen. You're listening

1025
00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:11,199
Speaker 3: to Deo Therapists from Heart Radio. We'll be back after

1026
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 3: a quick break. So, Laurie, we heard back from Nicole,

1027
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:29,199
Speaker 3: our honorary family therapist. Let's see how things went for her.

1028
00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:32,959
Speaker 4: So I ripped the band aid off as soon as

1029
00:52:32,959 --> 00:52:36,599
Speaker 4: I got done talking to you guys, pretty much. I

1030
00:52:36,639 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 4: talked to my husband right away, and I'm not sure

1031
00:52:40,359 --> 00:52:43,039
Speaker 4: he was totally on board or knew what to think,

1032
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:47,679
Speaker 4: but I feel like we definitely covered the part where

1033
00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:52,959
Speaker 4: I need more emotional support and he understood that. So

1034
00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:57,679
Speaker 4: next I called my sister and talked to her, and

1035
00:52:57,799 --> 00:53:01,559
Speaker 4: she was completely supportive and agreed that I needed to

1036
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 4: step down as the family therapist. She was happy to

1037
00:53:04,839 --> 00:53:08,599
Speaker 4: have somebody there to support her feelings too as well,

1038
00:53:08,799 --> 00:53:11,039
Speaker 4: and to underderstand that I felt the same way as

1039
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 4: she did. Next, I talk to my mom because I

1040
00:53:14,879 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 4: knew that that was going to be the toughest conversation.

1041
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:21,639
Speaker 4: It didn't go exactly as I thought I would go.

1042
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 4: Instead of her being angry. I felt like she was

1043
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:31,519
Speaker 4: more annoyed. I would say, is a good term, and

1044
00:53:32,879 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 4: she kind of just said, you can do whatever you

1045
00:53:35,959 --> 00:53:37,679
Speaker 4: need to do, and I'm going to do whatever I

1046
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:43,519
Speaker 4: need to do for myself, which is not really what

1047
00:53:43,559 --> 00:53:47,959
Speaker 4: I thought either. After that happened, then my dad ended

1048
00:53:48,039 --> 00:53:51,039
Speaker 4: up calling me and he said he was worried about

1049
00:53:51,039 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 4: me and was wondering what was going on. My mom

1050
00:53:53,439 --> 00:53:57,919
Speaker 4: had called him, and he was very supportive. He's like,

1051
00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:01,159
Speaker 4: I totally understand. I know why you need to do this,

1052
00:54:01,399 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 4: I know why this is affecting you and how it's

1053
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 4: affecting you, and I'm proud of you, and I will

1054
00:54:08,399 --> 00:54:10,199
Speaker 4: be there however you need me to be there. You

1055
00:54:10,279 --> 00:54:12,559
Speaker 4: just tell me what you need me to do. He

1056
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 4: said that I've been there for him a lot and

1057
00:54:14,879 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 4: that whatever I need, he'll be there for Overall, I

1058
00:54:19,839 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 4: feel relieved in some respects. Other respects, I don't feel like,

1059
00:54:25,479 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 4: especially with my mom, that I.

1060
00:54:26,759 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 5: Know what to talk about.

1061
00:54:29,039 --> 00:54:30,679
Speaker 4: In the last couple of days, it's been a little

1062
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:35,639
Speaker 4: more difficult that way, without having the family therapist conversations.

1063
00:54:36,639 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 5: We'll see how it goes. I'm still feeling it out.

1064
00:54:38,879 --> 00:54:45,439
Speaker 1: I feel like, so what we're seeing here is very

1065
00:54:45,479 --> 00:54:48,999
Speaker 1: common where sometimes when we try to redefine our roles

1066
00:54:49,039 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: in the family, some people don't like it. And I

1067
00:54:53,399 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: think what's going on here is that her mom is

1068
00:54:56,319 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 1: not happy about losing her own personal family therapist, and

1069
00:55:01,159 --> 00:55:04,999
Speaker 1: she went so far as to call the father to say,

1070
00:55:05,039 --> 00:55:06,159
Speaker 1: something's wrong with Nicole.

1071
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 5: She's gone crazy. She's not going to be much therapist anymore.

1072
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 3: I agree, But you know what, Nicole is right, It's

1073
00:55:16,839 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 3: going to be tense for a while with her mom

1074
00:55:18,399 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 3: because when all the conversations have been the family therapy stuff. Yes,

1075
00:55:21,959 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 3: you're going to have to figure out what else you

1076
00:55:23,359 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 3: can talk about. Indeed, both of you will have to

1077
00:55:25,479 --> 00:55:27,679
Speaker 3: do that, and that's part of the deal. There's nothing

1078
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:29,599
Speaker 3: wrong with that. It does take time to figure out

1079
00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 3: what do we talk about? And hopefully, Nicole, you'll prevent

1080
00:55:32,399 --> 00:55:35,199
Speaker 3: your mom from dragging you back to therapy territory as

1081
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 3: she will try to.

1082
00:55:35,919 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 1: Do, and that will involve constant reminders because it sounds

1083
00:55:40,359 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: like she's not going to let go of this very easily.

1084
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:44,919
Speaker 1: But I think the positive thing here is that you

1085
00:55:44,959 --> 00:55:47,119
Speaker 1: will have a different kind of relationship with your mother

1086
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,959
Speaker 1: ultimately that I think will be a much more fulfilling

1087
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:53,479
Speaker 1: relationship for both of you and certainly take that pressure

1088
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:54,559
Speaker 1: off of you.

1089
00:55:55,039 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 5: And I think that it.

1090
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: Went well with Nicole's sister, and I think her husband

1091
00:55:59,439 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: when she says you didn't really know what to do

1092
00:56:00,799 --> 00:56:02,999
Speaker 1: with it, he won't know what to do with it yet.

1093
00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:06,159
Speaker 1: But this is again a redefining and it will certainly

1094
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:08,119
Speaker 1: help the communication in their marriage.

1095
00:56:08,279 --> 00:56:10,999
Speaker 3: There is a learning of when you change a dynamic

1096
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,199
Speaker 3: with someone, there is a learning c of in figuring

1097
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,559
Speaker 3: out the new dynamic. Everyone gets to have one. Her

1098
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:16,519
Speaker 3: husband included.

1099
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:20,679
Speaker 1: And I thought that the dad's response was great, and

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00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,039
Speaker 1: I hope that that was very reassuring for Nicole because

1101
00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: I think that ultimately he's the one who gets it

1102
00:56:25,359 --> 00:56:29,479
Speaker 1: right now, and I think the others will eventually start

1103
00:56:29,479 --> 00:56:30,079
Speaker 1: to get it too.

1104
00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:33,039
Speaker 3: Nicole, you might have some time on your hands now

1105
00:56:33,039 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 3: that you're not busy with all the family therapy, so

1106
00:56:35,439 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 3: hopefully you'll get to discover some new passion that keeps

1107
00:56:39,279 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 3: too happy.

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00:56:43,839 --> 00:56:46,199
Speaker 1: Next week, A mother and daughter find it difficult to

1109
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,999
Speaker 1: reconnect after the mother's years long struggle with severe depression.

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00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 4: My body is so full of her triggers that even

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00:56:54,799 --> 00:56:57,639
Speaker 4: now at thirty five, I'll see something that I know

1112
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:00,479
Speaker 4: she can't handle and I.

1113
00:57:00,399 --> 00:57:02,039
Speaker 5: Will have a reaction to it.

1114
00:57:02,439 --> 00:57:06,679
Speaker 6: I think for a lot of my life, I deluded

1115
00:57:06,759 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 6: myself into thinking that my depression wasn't impacting you.

1116
00:57:11,439 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1117
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:17,479
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1118
00:57:17,479 --> 00:57:21,119
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1119
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:23,319
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

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00:57:23,359 --> 00:57:26,839
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

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00:57:27,399 --> 00:57:29,599
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1122
00:57:29,639 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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00:57:35,319 --> 00:57:38,959
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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00:57:38,999 --> 00:57:43,159
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

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00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:46,719
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

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00:57:46,759 --> 00:57:50,239
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

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00:57:50,999 --> 00:57:53,279
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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00:57:53,559 --> 00:57:56,479
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio