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Speaker 1: Also media, I still a Japanese kit cat in I know.

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Speaker 2: All right, all right, let's just start the episode with that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where Garrison is

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Speaker 2: the bastard by secretly revealing to us their Japanese kit

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Speaker 2: cat habit.

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Speaker 1: The Macha kit cats are so good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a twenty thousand dollars a month habit.

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Speaker 2: It's destroying their life and finances. But this is Behind

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Speaker 2: the Bastard's a show where we don't judge unless you're

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Speaker 2: one of the worst people in all of history, which

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Speaker 2: Garrison is not yet. Garrison, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: The tariffs are really really hurting this the Japanese kit

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Speaker 2: cat addict.

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Speaker 1: My monthly budget has skyrocket.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, someone who knows something about math to please tell

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Speaker 2: Garrison how to make ends meet with their their twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars a month kit cat habit.

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Speaker 3: That's how I feel about my obsession with Korean sunscreen.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, God, damn it.

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Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. Yeah, no, totally.

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Speaker 4: You do kind of look like every white woman in

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Speaker 4: the Korean sunscreen shop.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, it's a better. It's frankly a better.

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Speaker 2: This is Part three. Of our episodes on Lee Atwater.

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Speaker 2: A bastard wouldn't have been happy for us to lead

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Speaker 2: into him this way. But yes, let's let's plug some

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Speaker 2: things up there.

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to plug front of the pod Sean

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Speaker 3: Mahlen's book, The podcast Pantheon one hundred and one podcast

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Speaker 3: that change how we listen. Uh and uh, we're in it.

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Speaker 3: We're featured in it.

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Speaker 1: Robert, Look what my bookmark is.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell?

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Speaker 1: Is it is it us?

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Speaker 3: No, it's the pamphlet to the Knife you got me

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Speaker 3: after I had surgery.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, there you go. This is probably a really

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Speaker 1: interesting read.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, we're featured in We're featured in the book,

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Speaker 3: and it's available for perioder now and is out on

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Speaker 3: September sixteenth. You get books, I'm assuming.

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Speaker 1: Anyways, presumably wherever you get books.

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Speaker 3: He wrote nice things about us, which now I appreciate and.

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Speaker 2: Again is not in our wheelhouse because we don't write

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Speaker 2: nice things. I just write bad things about bad people.

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Speaker 1: This water.

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Speaker 3: I just kind of want to read what's in this.

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Speaker 2: No, No, we're reading about Lee Atwater. We're not reading

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Speaker 2: about our podcast.

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Speaker 3: No, not our podcast. I want to read the pamphlet

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Speaker 3: for the for the knife.

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Speaker 1: Your book, which was the knife the Bowie Knife pamphlet.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's the New Zealand Bowie Knife. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: that's a good pamphlet.

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Speaker 1: Vaughan was a terror with the bowie knife. That's how

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Speaker 1: you start.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, dayone who fought with the bowie knife was a

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Speaker 2: terror with it, because that's a scary weapon. Like anyone

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Speaker 2: who's whose choice in an era with like guns and

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Speaker 2: swords is something that's shorter range than either is a

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Speaker 2: frightening person.

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Speaker 1: Gone, it's a good read. Go buy yourself a bowie knife.

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Speaker 1: People certified behind the Bastard's moment here. Yeah, I'm a.

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Speaker 2: Big fan of the knife that is slightly too large

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Speaker 2: for basically in a useful purpose. I use it for

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Speaker 2: cutting down trees. In nineteen eighty four, Lee Atwater has

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Speaker 2: been brought back on the team, or has been brought

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Speaker 2: back on the election team to help Reagan get reelected. Right,

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Speaker 2: he's in the Reagan White House. He's kind of coasting

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Speaker 2: off his laurels from the nineteen eighty election for a while.

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Speaker 2: In eighty four, he gets given his most prestigious position yet,

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Speaker 2: which is assistant to the campaign manager Ed Rowlands talking

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Speaker 2: to PBS. Rowlands later claimed a lot of people told

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Speaker 2: me he wouldn't be loyal to me and told me

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Speaker 2: not to pick him. Roland said, I admired his work ethic. Now,

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Speaker 2: whenever people tell you don't pick this Republican strategist because

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Speaker 2: he'll betray you, and you're like, but his work ethic's good,

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Speaker 2: You're about to get betrayed. That's just how this story

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Speaker 2: ends one hundred percent of the time, and that's where

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Speaker 2: it ends with Lee Atwater for that PBS piece. Not

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Speaker 2: long after, Roland says, Atwater arranged what turned out to

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Speaker 2: be an ambush media interview in which Rowlands was accused

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Speaker 2: of running a dirty tricks campaign against the Democratic vice

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Speaker 2: presidential candidate Geraldine Farah. Lee had put a spear in

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Speaker 2: my back, Roland says, it was just a two year

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Speaker 2: effort to destroy me. He wanted to run Bush's presidential campaign.

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Speaker 2: So he starts plotting this while they're working together, and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't fully come out how badly he's fucked him

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Speaker 2: until the election is over. But from the instant they

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Speaker 2: start together, he is planning, how am I going to

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Speaker 2: stab this guy in the back so that by nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty eight, his corpse is clear of my path, and

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Speaker 2: I can get the job that he's got right now.

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Speaker 3: What a cool guy.

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Speaker 2: He's always going to step ahead from, at least the

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Speaker 2: other Republicans.

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Speaker 1: Lee Atwater is.

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Speaker 3: It's always like, how may I stab you?

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Speaker 1: And where?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: If only he had a bowie knife, if only.

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Speaker 2: Someone had told ed, this guy will definitely stab you

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Speaker 2: in the back. Oh, at Lee Atwater, the backstabber, he's

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Speaker 2: probably gonna stab your back. I don't think he's gonna

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Speaker 2: stab my back. Not the backstabber then gets his back stabbed.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a tale as old as time.

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Speaker 1: Gonna stab me? What's he gonna do? Stab me?

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Speaker 2: Man who just got stabbed by Lee Atwater. So Reagan

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Speaker 2: wins reelection obviously, and Atwater you don't get a lot

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Speaker 2: from him during this period, So I'm going to guess

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Speaker 2: he's not he's not playing as formative a role as

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Speaker 2: he is an eighty eight. But it's easier to get

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Speaker 2: a president reelected usually historically than it is to get

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Speaker 2: them elected the first time. Things are weird now, so

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Speaker 2: after eighty four, Atwater's like I've spent my time working

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Speaker 2: in like politics and working under elected leaders and working

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Speaker 2: for the party directly. It's time for me to go

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Speaker 2: into private practice, right, in part because it's time for

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Speaker 2: me to make the money, and I want to set

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Speaker 2: myself up. Sit in eighty eight, I'm an independent political

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Speaker 2: campaign figure, and I have a better chance of getting

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Speaker 2: appointed by George H. W. Bush, who everyone knows is

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Speaker 2: going to be the Republican candidate pretty much, right. There's

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Speaker 2: a little bit of fuckery that's going to have to

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Speaker 2: happen to secure him the position, but people are pretty

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Speaker 2: much sure. In particular, there's going to be some fuckery

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Speaker 2: against Dole that atwater's going to Bob Dole. If you

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Speaker 2: remember Bob Dole, which you probably don't if your knees

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Speaker 2: don't hurt. He's he's the fruit cup guy, right, Yeah, probably,

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Speaker 2: I think he's the fruit cup guy. He's the guy

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Speaker 2: who the Simpsons parody by just having him say his

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Speaker 2: own name a lot. He didn't walk great because of

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Speaker 2: his war injuries. He was an astronaut, also a Democrat

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Speaker 2: by political standards today, but pretty hard Republican by the

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Speaker 2: standards of his time. He ran against Clinton too, He

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Speaker 2: was pretty boring. You watch that Simpsons Halloween episode, and

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Speaker 2: you get most of what you need to know about

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Speaker 2: Bob Dole and Bill Clinton to be honest. So he

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Speaker 2: starts a political consulting firm for all of the lower

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Speaker 2: level candidates who had hired him periodically to conduct push

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Speaker 2: polls or whatever. And that's what he's doing when he

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Speaker 2: starts his independent firm, well, his first I think it's

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Speaker 2: like campaign consultants or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But after the eighty four election.

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Speaker 2: He merges with a larger consulting firm, so he's not

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Speaker 2: independent for long. And the firm that he merges with

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Speaker 2: you might have heard of, we've talked about on the show.

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Speaker 2: You kind of guessed in the first episode. Actually gay

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Speaker 2: Roger Stones firm. It's Black, mat Fort and Stone. That's right, Okay, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's that's partners with Lee at Waters because they need

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Speaker 2: I think they need more of a domestic angle because

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Speaker 2: they're more focused on foreign dictators at this point, right

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Speaker 2: and at Waters.

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Speaker 4: To three to get to Roger Stone though, Yeah, there's

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Speaker 4: an expanding area to operate in for non foreign dictators.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, Yeah, there's there's a chance that you could

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Speaker 2: make a non foreign dictator if you get good enough

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Speaker 2: at getting people elected domestically, and that's called Drostone's community

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Speaker 2: and man afford right. Yeah, in Lee Atwater probably would

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Speaker 2: have if he'd survived long enough. Now, Roger Stone would

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Speaker 2: later say of his friend and business partner, we both

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Speaker 2: knew he believed in nothing above all. He was incredibly competitive,

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Speaker 2: but I had the feeling that he sold his soul

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Speaker 2: to the devil, and the devil took it.

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone, every Roger Stone.

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Speaker 2: If you want a guy who, as your friend, is

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Speaker 2: going to speak well of you when you're dead, Roger

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Speaker 2: Stone is not that man.

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Speaker 1: Not the kind of is.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: Lee's tactics fit in with Manifort, Black and Stone, but

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Speaker 2: his interests diverged from his partners because again, they're more

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Speaker 2: interested in becoming the go to pr agency and campaign

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Speaker 2: experts for dictators and want to be dictators all over

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Speaker 2: the world, and Atwater is pretty resolutely interested in the

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Speaker 2: US and US elections. One of his former colleagues. Atwater's

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Speaker 2: former colleagues told The Washington Post, Charlie Black wants to

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Speaker 2: be rich. Roger Stone wants to be rich. Lee Atwater

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to be rich. He wants to be master

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Speaker 2: of the game. And there's a picture you can see

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Speaker 2: that's I believe that's Manifort. That's Roger Stone in the middle,

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Speaker 2: and then that's Lee Atwater on the right side of

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Speaker 2: your screen in this photo from their days working together.

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Speaker 1: And James Vanniak is still is still in play.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Now, who are you going to get to

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Speaker 2: play young Roger Stone because honestly he looks like Niles

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Speaker 2: from Fraser, but Niles from Brasier can't play that role.

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Speaker 3: What's his name, Eddie Rhdamain?

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Speaker 1: Is that his name, Eddie Redmain? Yeah, yeah, he is,

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Speaker 1: he is. He is similarly off putting.

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Speaker 2: Now where you get a man with a with a

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Speaker 2: thumb shaped head who can play Paul Manifort, that's really

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Speaker 2: gonna be the key. Is a thumb enough shaped celebrity

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Speaker 2: that could be a star maker.

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Speaker 3: Like I said in part one, at be played by

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Speaker 3: to for Grace.

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Speaker 2: Atwater could be played by to for Grace. But I

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Speaker 2: think to for Grace is is older now than Atwater

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Speaker 2: ever lived.

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Speaker 1: To be spoiler, Manaphort, you know what, come back, Manifor.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be tough, Manaphort. I went to high

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Speaker 2: school with a couple of guys who look like Paul Manifort,

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Speaker 2: but they all went and got Paul Manifort jobs. So

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Speaker 2: I don't think you're going to get controversial. This could

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Speaker 2: be controversial. Maybe you tap someone like Shane Gillis.

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Speaker 4: It's not hard Shane Gillis type to play a Paul Manifort.

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Speaker 2: So leet Water has started working with Roger Stone and

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Speaker 2: Paul Manifort in the light. And while he's doing this,

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Speaker 2: you know, while after, right after, shortly after, he's he's

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Speaker 2: gotten I guess acquired or partnered with them. In April

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Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty five, George H. W. Bush invites his sons,

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Speaker 2: in some of his some of his close relatives to

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Speaker 2: Camp David to prepare them for his nineteen eighty eight

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Speaker 2: presidential run. Basically number one, he's getting ahead of things.

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Speaker 2: He wants them to meet the probable team. I don't

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Speaker 2: think he's locked down all of his team positions, but

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Speaker 2: he knows more or less the people he wants working

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Speaker 2: with him, even know even if he's not sure what

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Speaker 2: job they're going to get.

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Speaker 1: And so he wants his.

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Speaker 2: Family, who have been always been a big part of

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Speaker 2: his political campaigns, to meet the people who are going

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Speaker 2: to be running his eighty eight campaign, and one of

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Speaker 2: the people he as simbles and has come to Camp

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Speaker 2: David for this nineteen eighty five meeting is thirty four

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Speaker 2: year old Lee Atwater.

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Speaker 1: Who he's already proven to be a seasoned partier.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a solid party And you have to really, especially

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Speaker 2: given how close he and w become, what kind of

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Speaker 2: shit did you guys get up to at Camp David together?

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Speaker 1: Like what were you?

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Speaker 2: I know, I think this is part during Bush's sober

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Speaker 2: period kind of, but I don't know. I feel like

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Speaker 2: Bush and Lee Atwater probably did coke together. That's my

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Speaker 2: Lee Atwater head Cannon. Uh So, Lee's double cross of

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Speaker 2: Rowlins had worked, though, right because a year earlier Rowlins

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Speaker 2: had been is shoe in for the job, and Bush

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Speaker 2: actually hadn't trusted at Water at first, which is again

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Speaker 2: usually a good instinct, and his son's particularly dislikedly right.

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Speaker 2: Jeb has gone on to say that, like, initially we

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Speaker 2: saw him as more self interested and interested in burning

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Speaker 2: his own reputation than in helping our dad, and we

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Speaker 2: were worried.

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Speaker 1: Really, damn, that's really someone is interested.

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Speaker 2: Only for a little while because they were They're worried.

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Speaker 2: Was that, like, well, these dirty tricks of his. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they'll work, but they'll ruin our father's reputation, his spotless

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Speaker 2: moral record as former director of the CIA.

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Speaker 1: The Family deputation.

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Speaker 2: On contra the Bush Family spotless Wow. Eric Alterman describes

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Speaker 2: how Lee Atwater gained the Bush families trust. And this

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Speaker 2: is you know, Garre, I know you've been looking to

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Speaker 2: do this yourself. So this you might be wanting to

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Speaker 2: take some notes on this point. To prove his loyalty

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Speaker 2: and increase his leverage with the family, he invited demand it.

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Speaker 2: Actually that George Junior joined him full time in the campaign.

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Speaker 2: It was a twofer, he recalls. Not only wout it

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Speaker 2: in their questions of loyalty, but Atwater got the services

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Speaker 2: of a staff member who could organize the family at

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Speaker 2: a moment's notice. He turned out to be the most

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Speaker 2: political and the most loyal to my father. Jeb Bush

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Speaker 2: now says Atwater could go to hell tomorrow and I'd

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Speaker 2: be a supporter. He has proved himself with our family. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and w will say basically that like this is a

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Speaker 2: lot of where he starts learning politics. It is from

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Speaker 2: this period when Atwater takes him under his wing. He's

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Speaker 2: working directly for Lee helping to get HW Bush elected,

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Speaker 2: Like this is a lot of W's introduction to politics,

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Speaker 2: and again Atwater has already gotten Carl Rove started in

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Speaker 2: his career. He's going to be Bush's campaign manager. So

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Speaker 2: even though he's not going to live to see the

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Speaker 2: Bush era, he's often given credit as an architect of

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Speaker 2: the Bush era, and he really does deserve that.

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Speaker 4: I wonder how much of that influences also like Bush's

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Speaker 4: decision to go full Cheney, right or yeah, I need.

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Speaker 2: An evil mastermind at my side exactly.

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Speaker 3: My question is do you think if Lee survived longer

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Speaker 3: that Jeb exclamation point would have would have you know.

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Speaker 4: No, no, because at that point, at that point, Lee

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Speaker 4: would never I think he'll course onto someone that much

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Speaker 4: of a loser when you have like a clear like

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Speaker 4: con man and winner in the in the game.

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Speaker 2: Like why there's two and you know, we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: this at the end. There's two possibilities for how leg

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Speaker 2: Atwater would have handled the rise of Trump. One would

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Speaker 2: have been I think he would have gone hard never

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Speaker 2: Trumper if for nothing else then like well I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of old and tired now and there's money in doing this,

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Speaker 2: and maybe I don't really care as like, I know,

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Speaker 2: I know I can't win, but I know I can

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Speaker 2: grift off this and that's good enough. Or I think

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Speaker 2: if he had stayed in like politics shape as he

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Speaker 2: was kind of at the peak of his career, I mean,

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Speaker 2: he would have seen Trump coming and gotten in bed

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Speaker 2: with him. But it's one of those two things. And

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Speaker 2: we'll talk at the end again about what we think

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Speaker 2: is likelier for a Lee at Water had he lived

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Speaker 2: to see this. But he takes w under his wing

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Speaker 2: and trains him up, and it's during this nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: eight election that Lee would reach the peak of his career,

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Speaker 2: possibly the peak of the damage he'd caused to society.

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Speaker 2: But before I get to this, we need to pull

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Speaker 2: back again and talk about how the justice system in

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Speaker 2: this country used to work, right, because this is integral

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Speaker 2: to how Lee does what he does and the damage

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Speaker 2: that he causes doing it.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, really really excited for this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't talk about this a lot, but by

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, all fifty states had furlough programs for inmates,

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Speaker 2: which allowed people who were incarcerated and still serving time

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Speaker 2: to earn passes to leave prison for differing like periods.

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Speaker 2: Right at the most basic level, maybe like you've got

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Speaker 2: a funeral or a wedding and you can get like

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Speaker 2: an afternoon pass to attend it. But some people got

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Speaker 2: passes that were kind of a similar to work release programs.

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Speaker 2: Some people got to spend weeks at a time out

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Speaker 2: with their families and they'd go back in for a while.

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Speaker 2: It was often seemed as like a transition thing with like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this person has sort of proved themselves inside if they

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Speaker 2: can handle limited amounts of time free before we start

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Speaker 2: talking about like a commutation or about parole, depending on

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Speaker 2: the kind of conviction that they've got right and about

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Speaker 2: ten percent of all prisoners in the US received some

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Speaker 2: sort of furlough in nineteen eighty seven, per an article

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Speaker 2: for the Marshall Project by Beth Schwarzoptfel and Bill Keller, Nationally,

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Speaker 2: murderers served an average of eight years before they were

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Speaker 2: parole er commuted, so furloughs were in the toolkit of

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Speaker 2: a previous generation, an uncontroversial proposition. They offered incentives for

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Speaker 2: good behavior behind bars and a good way for inmates

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Speaker 2: to reacclimate to the life. They would almost certainly return

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Speaker 2: to outside of prison. Use of furloughs for prisoners in

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Speaker 2: the US is widespread, successful, and relatively problem free, The

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Speaker 2: editor of a magazine for corrections professionals told The New

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Speaker 2: York Times in nineteen eighty eight, So again, I have

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Speaker 2: to really emphasize this is not at all a political thing.

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Speaker 2: In fact, under Governor Ronald Reagan, California had one of

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Speaker 2: the most generous furlough programs in the country. As stated,

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Speaker 2: the program was really helpful to many inmates, but given

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Speaker 2: the sheer number of people involved, there were always cases

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Speaker 2: of it going wrong. And while Reagan was governor, two

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Speaker 2: prisoners were furloughed by his justice system and went on

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Speaker 2: to commit murder. This happened two separate times, and there

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Speaker 2: were criticisms of the program and of Reagan for allowing

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Speaker 2: it during this period of time. And after the first murder,

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Speaker 2: he responded to these criticisms by saying, more than twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand people had these passes, and this is the only murder,

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Speaker 2: ending with obviously, you can't be perfect, which is a

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Speaker 2: kind of reasonable. You just cannot have conversations like this

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Speaker 2: about the justice system today.

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Speaker 1: No is this like so having something like this now

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Speaker 1: would be like outrageously progressive.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, but like look at two out of twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand and eight bad you know, like that's just life.

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Speaker 4: Like the current like like crime crackdown that is like

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Speaker 4: sweeping the nation with National Guard deployments everywhere.

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Speaker 1: It's like all crimes at an all time low.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so opposite towards this logic, and having like

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Speaker 4: a Republican party used this logic to justify a furlough

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Speaker 4: program is so alien to the current understanding of politics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and that's partly what's so depressing about

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Speaker 2: it is that, like you could say, obviously, you can't

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Speaker 2: be perfect, and that's the end of it, at least

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Speaker 2: as a Republican. But then the Republicans when it happens

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Speaker 2: to a Democrat, are going, because of Lee Atwater, to

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Speaker 2: leap on this sort of thing as a way to

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Speaker 2: destroy a presidential candidate. Right, So you jump forward to

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. Bush's opponent is Michael ducacis governor of Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: Two years before the election, a guy named Willy Horton,

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Speaker 2: imprisoned in Massachusetts for his part in a nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: four robbery murder, gets out on furlough, And to be clear,

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Speaker 2: we don't know if Willy killed anybody. He was one

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Speaker 2: of three robbers. He would claim that he stayed in

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Speaker 2: the car and that his friends had no idea, that

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Speaker 2: he had no idea his friend's planned to kill a guy.

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Speaker 2: One of his friends would say, no, no, it was

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Speaker 2: Willy who went in. I think his friend was like,

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Speaker 2: I stayed in the car. But these people are all

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Speaker 2: dealing with We have no idea what actually happened, and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter to an extent because all three of

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Speaker 2: them were part of the crime. And that's the way

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Speaker 2: this sort of thing gets charged. Right, if you're part

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Speaker 2: of a robbery where someone gets shot, you can get

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Speaker 2: charged with that murder even if you don't pull the trigger. Right,

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Speaker 2: That's just the way the legal system works and worked. Then,

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Speaker 2: in June of nineteen eighty six, Willy gets out on furlough,

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Speaker 2: but he gets in trouble. I think he gets basically

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Speaker 2: the police come after him, and he decides to flee

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Speaker 2: the state rather than get caught and go back to prison.

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Speaker 2: He spends some time in Florida. Eventually he moves up

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Speaker 2: to Baltimore and in April of nineteen eighty seven, someone

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Speaker 2: breaks into a suburban home in Maryland owned by the

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Speaker 2: sales manager for a car dealership.

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Speaker 1: The intruder I.

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Speaker 2: Think, stabs and ties the husband up and repeatedly rapes

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Speaker 2: his wife, Angela Miller, at gunpoint. Neither victim got a

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Speaker 2: good look at the assailant's face, but the victim stole

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Speaker 2: the homeowner's Camaro, and not long after this, the police

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Speaker 2: find that camaro with Willy Horton behind the wheel. While

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Speaker 2: he's being arrested, he waves a gun at the police

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Speaker 2: and they start shooting, and long story short, he gets

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Speaker 2: arrested after being shot I think a couple of times.

402
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Speaker 2: So Horton gets charged for the home invasion and the rape,

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Speaker 2: and when the news finds out that he is a

404
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Speaker 2: like the local news finds out that he's a furloughed

405
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Speaker 2: murderer from California.

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Speaker 1: They flip out.

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Speaker 2: And initially it's just a local paper, the Lawrence Eagle Tribune,

408
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Speaker 2: who wins a Pulitzer for their coverage of this. They

409
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Speaker 2: are pretty relentless uncovering the story, but it proves to

410
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Speaker 2: have legs beyond the local area, and the first person

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Speaker 2: to use it politically is actually Al Gore because during

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Speaker 2: the primary process, Gore has to debate Ducaucus for the

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Speaker 2: Democratic primary election, and Gore asks, if elected president, would

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Speaker 2: you put the same program in place federally, which is

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Speaker 2: itself kind of a stupid question because there were federal

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Speaker 2: furloughs at this point in time, right, it wasn't the

417
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Speaker 2: same program that existed, but like, yeah, anyway, Gore is

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Speaker 2: the first person to use this story for his benefit,

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Speaker 2: but he doesn't name Horton, right. He talks about the

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Speaker 2: story in broad details. He doesn't name the guy, he

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Speaker 2: doesn't put his picture out there. But Lee Atwater he's

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Speaker 2: paying attention to this debate. He knows it doesn't, you know,

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Speaker 2: give Gore the win. But he also, I think, kind

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Speaker 2: of sees where Gore didn't have the killer instinct, right,

425
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Speaker 2: ran up short, wasn't quite willing to go through with

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Speaker 2: this to the extent that Lee is going to be

427
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Speaker 2: willing to. And Lee sees this and he's like, that's it.

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Speaker 2: That's how we win this fucking election, right, And he

429
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Speaker 2: insists in campaign meetings that they have to pivot to

430
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Speaker 2: make this the central message of the campaign. He tells

431
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Speaker 2: his colleagues. By the time we're finished they're going to

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Speaker 2: wonder whether Willy Horton is to Caucus's running mate, right

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Speaker 2: that they being the voters. He told a Baltimore reporter,

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Speaker 2: the Horton case is one of those gut issues that

435
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 2: are values issues, particularly in the South, and if we

436
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: hammer it these over and over, we are going to win.

437
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,120
Speaker 2: So all of this culminates in one of the most

438
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: famous political ads in the history of this country, the

439
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 2: Willy Horton Ad, And we're going to play that, but

440
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 2: first let's have some ads.

441
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: And we're back.

442
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,959
Speaker 2: So the Willy Horton ad is to this day one

443
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 2: of the most famous and probably one of the most

444
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 2: successful political ads ever run. I'm just gonna play it.

445
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 2: If you can watch it in the YouTube or just

446
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 2: go watch it separately. You could google the Will Horton

447
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 2: ad or type that into YouTube. You'll find it.

448
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: But you'll get most of it.

449
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 2: We'll describe what's going on, but you're going to see

450
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 2: a lot of a very scary picture of Willy Horton

451
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: right after he got arrested with a couple of gunshot injuries,

452
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 2: a picture that Willy Horton today is like, yeah, it's

453
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 2: a scariest picture of me.

454
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 5: Bush and Doucaca's On Crime. Bush supports the death penalty

455
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 5: for first degree murderers. Ducacas not only opposes the death penalty,

456
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 5: he allowed first degree murderers to have weekend passes from prison.

457
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 5: One was Willy Horton, who murdered a boy and a robbery,

458
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 5: stabbing him nineteen times. Despite a life sentence, Horton received

459
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 5: ten weekend passes from prison. Horton fled, kidnapped a young couple,

460
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 5: stabbing the man and repeatedly raping his girlfriend weekend prison passes.

461
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 5: Doucaca's On Crime.

462
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: And the scary photo is the second one they show

463
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 2: of him where he's being led in by a who

464
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: he's easily looks, I think because a forced perspective, like

465
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: two feet taller than he's just been shot. And he yeah,

466
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: like he looks like a guy who walked away from

467
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 2: multiple gunshot wounds.

468
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 3: You know.

469
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 2: Like it's this I'm gonna like inundate the airwaves with

470
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: this ad. These pictures of a guy during like the

471
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: worst point in his life. And also these pictures of

472
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 2: a guy who I can kind of it's this Southern

473
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: strategy thing right where I can throw all of our

474
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 2: audience's fears of crime and their fears of black people

475
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: and mix them together and like do Caucus is voting

476
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: to let specifically black murderers out?

477
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: Well, they were, they will.

478
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: Specifically target white women, right, that's the message of the ad.

479
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 4: This is the same like logic used in the last election,

480
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 4: but with immigrants. Like you look at the way that

481
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 4: they talked about like the Lake and Riley Act and

482
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: showed mugshots of alleged Venezuelan gang members during these big

483
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 4: press conferences, and yeah, it's attacking the same fears, like

484
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 4: the Bide administration or whatever is releasing these violent, violent

485
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 4: immigrants into our country.

486
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

487
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: And that's you know, the Willie Horton ad gets a

488
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: huge amount of credit. And this is a thing where

489
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: this this election had looked a lot different in the

490
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 2: summer of nineteen eighty eight, which is, you know, right

491
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 2: before the conventions, which used to matter more. The fact

492
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 2: that you were locking in you know, people during that

493
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: used to matter more. But by the summer of eighty eight,

494
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: Ducoccus is ahead by more than seventeen points and Bush's

495
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 2: people are kind of braced for a disaster and the

496
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: future president's Chief of Staff Mary Madaline recalls quote, Lee

497
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: held us together with pep Talk's history lessons and weird statistics,

498
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: and a lot of those statistics had to do with

499
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: how he thought white people were going to react to

500
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: this story, this Willy Horton story, right, and this does

501
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: help turn things around. Now it's not his only dirty

502
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: trick in the Ducaccas campaign. He is fucking so cruel

503
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: to do Caucus. He starts a rumor that Ducaccus had

504
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: liked because it had worked for him while in the

505
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: past basically been close to being institutionalized for depression over

506
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: the fact that, like du Caucus, like the Washington Times

507
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 2: published an article that Atwater laundered that he had received

508
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: treatment for depression.

509
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: At one point.

510
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: And this was a fairly minor thing. But again Atwater

511
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: has it blown up. He makes sure this article gets

512
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: a lot of play, and it seems the point where

513
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: like a reporter asks Reagan, and again there's you know,

514
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: did Decaucus plant the question with the reporter? Did he

515
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: just plant the article? But this reporter asks Reagan, should

516
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 2: Dicacus released his medical records, you know? And the President

517
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 2: Reagan says, look, I'm not going to pick on an invalid,

518
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: which is almost the same response at Water had given

519
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: to the about like the electroshock treatment, Like he's doing

520
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 2: the same thing again, right, Like you see how it's

521
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: it's not a limitless playbook, although playing the hits also works, right,

522
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, like journalists are asking Docaucus, are you going

523
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: to like have you seen a psychiatrist? And like if

524
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: he'd admitted that he had, like that's that also would

525
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 2: have been seen by a sizeable number of people as

526
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: like disqualifying. Right, we can't have a president who's ever

527
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: gone to therapy. I think we've seen where that takes

528
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: us as a culture. And yeah, this is like there's

529
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: a lot of negative statements about Decaucus's wife too as

530
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: a result of I think like some of her mental

531
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: health treatment and whatnot. And he kind of goes after

532
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: Kitty Ducoccus as well, and yeah, it's it's like there's

533
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of grossness around this election, and a

534
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: significant chunk of it is centered around at Water. Like

535
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 2: his whole attitude is I'm not going to like I'm

536
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: not going to pull any punches, and I will, in

537
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: fact invent some punches if that's what it takes to

538
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: like kick a guy when he's down as much as

539
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: it's possible, right, And yeah, I mean the end of

540
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: the story is Bush wins, like Bush beats dow Caucus.

541
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: Now there's also Docuccus rides around in a tank, uh

542
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: and doesn't look great in the tank. There's a very

543
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: a very silly video, like the helmet looks a little

544
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: too big on his head. But that's paired with the

545
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: reason people saw it is it's paired by an ad

546
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: that Atwater help to orchestrate, where people are talking about

547
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: all that ducac has had done to trim defense budget,

548
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: to like stop spending and basically to disarm America during

549
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: the height of our conflict with the USSR. And Ducaccus

550
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: was a governor, like he wasn't voting to.

551
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: Like it was all lies. They don't even chieft it.

552
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: It's just lies.

553
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again the truth doesn't matter, right. What matters

554
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: is you get this, You get this shit in people's ears,

555
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: and that does all of the damage you need it

556
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: to do. Right, And that's that's what Lee Atwater knows.

557
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: And that's kind of his prime his major contribution to

558
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: Republican politics, and specifically to Republican electoral victories is he

559
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: is the guy like he gets credited with getting Bush

560
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: Senior elected and because of when he dies, he'll sometimes

561
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: his death will be blamed on Bush Senior failing to

562
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: get re elected. Bush Senior denies this, but I don't

563
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: know if he's the best source on things that got

564
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: him elected and didn't get him elected, given his record.

565
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: So this is like the peak of his life and

566
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: the peak of his success, right, Things turn around rapidly

567
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: for him after this. Obviously, the Willie Horton ad in particular,

568
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: gives that water a reputation for being a racist. And

569
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: this is one of the few things that really seems

570
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: to bug him, right because he would always bring up

571
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: the fact that he visited James Brown in prison, the

572
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: fact that he played with a number of he cuts

573
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: an album. One of the people he cuts an album

574
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: with is Isaac Hayes. Like he cuts this like R

575
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: and B he blues album and whatnot. That's like, yeah,

576
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: has Isaac Hayes on a couple of tracks, and there's

577
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: a very funny.

578
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: Review of it. Once SECU you pull it up. I

579
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: should have had this. Oh, I'm excited. I'm excited to

580
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: hear this.

581
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: We can try to get a track together for the

582
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: end here. But yeah, so he production. The album was

583
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: recorded in nineteen eighty nine. One guess is to the

584
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 2: title Garrison, I ooh my god, because Lee Atwater cuts this.

585
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: His goal was to bring a wider audience the sounds

586
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixties, right, so he gets some all

587
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: time great rhythm and blues singers. There's Isaac Hay's, Chuck Jackson,

588
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: BB King, the Memphis Horns, Sam Moore, ar Leten Nightingale. Yeah,

589
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: like some heavy hitters on there, and then Lee Atwater

590
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: featured first. The critical reception was not entirely bad. The

591
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Times called at Water not any better than

592
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: a singer in an average bar band, but he is

593
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: more convincing than other such pop celebrity figures such as

594
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 2: the Blues Brothers or Bruce Willis, which I think is

595
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: an insult to the Blues Brothers. Let's let's stop right there,

596
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: but fair enough when we're talking about Bruce Willis and

597
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: his period of time in music.

598
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: Look, he's no William Shatner.

599
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: Okay, he's he does not have Shatner's instincts. No USA

600
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: Today wrote even able assist from BB King and Isaac

601
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: Hays can't mask the utter amateurism of Atwater, soulish chirping.

602
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: That's a little devastating, that's a little mate, that's a

603
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: little cruel, and it's going to come out at a

604
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: time that's extra painful for him. Anyway, He again as

605
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: a result of his friendship with a lot of these guys,

606
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: he's really going to get heated. One of the ever

607
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: journalists will suggest maybe there was something racist about that

608
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: racist ad, and his ultimate argument was not even that, like,

609
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: it wasn't racist, It was that I didn't have anything

610
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: to do with it. It was produced by a third party,

611
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: an independent like or basically a pack made it and

612
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: they put it out there, right, so we're not to blame.

613
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: We had nothing to do with it, right, And this

614
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: was a lie. Evidence has since come out tying Atwater

615
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: in the Bush campaign to directing and funding the ad,

616
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: and more recently Roger Stone has come forward to admit

617
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: that like, yeah, that was Lee. PBS summarizes his recollection

618
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: of events, Well, he was running the Bush campaign. Atwater

619
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: said that he had secretly arranged financing for the Horton ad.

620
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: At Water locked the office door, says Stone, and he

621
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: popped the famous Willy Horton spot onto a television He said,

622
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: I got a couple boys who were going to put

623
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: up a couple million dollars for this independent and I said,

624
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: that's a huge mistake. And Stone always has an agenda.

625
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: I think in this case, he didn't want to be

626
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: associated with an ad this famously poisonous and racist, and

627
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: so he really wanted to jam it onto Atwater's head.

628
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: But there's independent people taught who will make the same

629
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: claim that, like, yes, this was funded, as this kind

630
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: of shit often is by the campaign. They just wanted

631
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: plausible deniability. Right, Everyone who's anyone knows it was Atwater.

632
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: He gets the next big like because of this, because

633
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: of not just the Willie Horton add but his altogether

634
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: successful role helping to get Bush Senior elected. He gets

635
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: appointed head of the r n C immediately after the

636
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: eighty eight election.

637
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: That's his next job.

638
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: Yes, like he was he was cutting that album well

639
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: while the head of the r n C. Yes, Garrison

640
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: to the head of the r and C. He is

641
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: the head of the r n C when he records

642
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: with Isaac Hayes. So this is the peak of Atwater's career,

643
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: and while his only.

644
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't, you can't get a higher seems like

645
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 4: everything he wants out of life.

646
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: In a way, he's he has and life is just

647
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: about done for him, and I shouldn't stay here before

648
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: we get further into his life. While his only lingering

649
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: interest in the Willie hort Nad was separating himself from

650
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: it right after it had done what he needed to

651
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: do for Bush's campaign. The repercussions for our criminal justice

652
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: system continue on to this day. During the election, Governor

653
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: Dukakis froze and then banned furloughs for people with life sentences.

654
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: This is in nineteen eighty eight, and the Marshall Project

655
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: describes how chaotic this is at the time. Inmates and

656
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: staff in Massachusetts prisons at the time describe how dozens

657
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: of lifers who had moved over the course of years

658
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: from maximum to medium to minimum, even to work release programs,

659
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: were gathered up in the middle of the night and

660
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: brought back to more secure facilities. They went out at

661
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: midnight and scooped up all these lifers to get them

662
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: back behind the walls in case any of them had

663
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: any mind to take off, said Greg Diatchenko. Who had

664
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: recently begun serving a life sentence in Massachusetts at that time.

665
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: Some of these lifers were out there for many, many years,

666
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: these first degrees, hoping for commutation, getting furloughs and everything.

667
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: Those guys kept their hopes up even after all that

668
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: that the political climate would died out and they would

669
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: eventually work their way out. We were told it would

670
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: just be a short while, maybe a year or two,

671
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: before the political climate changed and guys would get back out.

672
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: But things never changed back as we're all unfortunately aware,

673
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: stayed after State and the wake of the Willy Horton

674
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: had began restricting parole and eliminating work releases, commutations, furloughs,

675
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: and conjugal visits. This marked the start of the Republican

676
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: Party's embrace of just build more prisons as the solution

677
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: to every crime related problem. But Democrats got on the

678
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: action too. When stumping for his crime bill, Joe Biden

679
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: described his objective as to lock Willy Horton up in jail,

680
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: and Joe Willy Horton was already locked up like From

681
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: then on, it was known that any attempt to make

682
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: life easier for prisoners or provide chances for clemency, especially

683
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: as a member of the as an elected leader, as

684
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: an executive. Right, if you're a governor or something. If

685
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: you show mercy on a prison, all it takes is

686
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: one of the thousands of people you might provide clemency

687
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: to to commit a crime. And that's your career, the

688
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: politic career, the lesson they take. Right, it's great. Now,

689
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: would something like this have happened, like the Willy Horton

690
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: Horton ad have happened later if it weren't for Lee

691
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: at Water, Probably, but it happened when it did, and

692
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: how it did because of him, right, Well.

693
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it reflects the type of stuff that he's

694
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: talking about after like the Nixon campaign, right and like

695
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 4: a continuation of the Southern strategy.

696
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of this is the Willy Horton ad is

697
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: another way of just not saying the N word in

698
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: campaign ads when you really want to. So nineteen eighty nine,

699
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: Lee's recording a real album. He's on top of the world,

700
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 2: he's running the RNC. Eric Alterman spent time with him

701
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: in April to write that New York Times article that

702
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: we've quoted from, and the article describes his dirty tricks

703
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: in detail, but also lingers on how cool at Water

704
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: seems to this journalist. Here's how it opens. It's two

705
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: am on a sultry Saturday in Columbia, South Carolina. Does

706
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: the Republican Party know where its chairman is? Harvey Lee, atwater,

707
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: hometown boy, is on stage at Bullwinkles, a smoky dive

708
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: with two pool tables, dollar beers, and the raunchy, long

709
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: haired Mojo blues band shaking the rafters. The overflow crowd

710
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: is packed against the wall, forcing overdressed Republican gentry to

711
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 2: slip to rub elbows with the Bullwinkle regulars. Atwater has

712
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: changed out of his blue blazer and tie into a

713
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: late night t shirt that David Letterman gave him. His

714
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 2: guitar was a gift from Ron Wood of the Rolling Stones,

715
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: a souvenir of Atwater's gala blue celebration at a presidential

716
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: inaugural ball, Drinking beers straight from the pitcher, sweat pouring

717
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 2: down his face, Atwater apologizes for going home so early,

718
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 2: but the Saint Patrick's Day Parade is just seven hours

719
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 2: away and he is the Grand Marshal. His final number

720
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: is a repeat of his opener, Eddie Taylor's bad boy.

721
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm bad, I'm bad, cries the man who masterminded George

722
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: Bush's nineteen eighty eight presidential campaign. I'm the worst you

723
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: ever had.

724
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: It's the drinking straight from the picture.

725
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 2: For me, this ain't your grandpa's republiced grandplas Republican party.

726
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: They're cool now that they want to be cool so bad.

727
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: It's so funny, it's so funny. It's the literally the

728
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: only thing denied to them.

729
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 4: It's such this like psycho sexual driver for conservatives to

730
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 4: be the real rebels, for them to be like like

731
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 4: the actual cool kids, and they will move mountains. Yeah,

732
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 4: and it's because try to achieve this cool kids status.

733
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: The ones who are smart and influential are together enough

734
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: to like have interests outside of politics and to know

735
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: vaguely that like what I'm doing is really uncool and

736
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: fucked up. I wonder if I could just sort of

737
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: punish everyone into pretending that's not true, you know, and

738
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: then they'd have to treat me like I'm a good

739
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 2: musician and not right mean things about how Isa case

740
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: his voice is better than mine. So even that soon

741
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: after the eighty eight election, Lee's tactics were being adopted

742
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: by campaign managers across the political spectrum. Patricia Schroeder, a

743
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: Democratic congressman, told The Times, the real problem with Lee

744
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: Atwater is that his tactics are contagious, and in his article,

745
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: Alterman ads, Indeed, the question Democrats around the country are

746
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: asking themselves is can you beat Lee Atwater unless you

747
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: join him? And you know, the answers no. But also

748
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: they never quite figure it out, do they. They're always

749
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: bad at it.

750
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, we're still here. We're still here.

751
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: We're still here, still getting dunked down by the guy

752
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: doing shots at buwinkers.

753
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: Maybe we can just copy the Republicans' rategy over and

754
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: over and over again. Yeah, after they've already done it,

755
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 4: Maybe it's going to finally work.

756
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

757
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 2: Maybe being exactly like the Republicans will take the Democrats

758
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: where they want to be one of these days. The

759
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: thing they never learn is, like, what you should learn

760
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: from their Republicans is that it's okay to be a

761
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: dick to your enemies. You don't have to treat them

762
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: respectfully just because you're running against them, and you watch

763
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: the West wing right, you don't have to, for example,

764
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 2: lie about their wives.

765
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 4: But the consequences right in a disaster for the US politics.

766
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: So Lee's tactics live on. He does not.

767
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: On March fifth, nineteen ninety one, at Water collapsed at

768
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: a fundraiser for a Republican senator. And there's a very

769
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: funny store in the documentary Boogeyman that covers Lee Atwater

770
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 2: where he ed Rowlands, who worked several floors above him.

771
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: When Lee starts having seizures, his aides go get ed

772
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: Rowlands because at Water's like, You're the only guy I trust.

773
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: They're gonna kill me otherwise, and I don't know who

774
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: they are. It's either is it the Democrats? Is it

775
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: other nefarious people? But like Ed is like I thought,

776
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 2: you know, we'd really reached a point of like rapproch

777
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 2: mock because he was like, I'm sorry for like fucking

778
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: you over and all the bad shit I did. You're

779
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: the only one I trust, and Lee, like Rolands will

780
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: be like Lee said that I was his rock basically

781
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: during this period. And I found interviews with like the

782
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: like a major figure at the DNC saying the same

783
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: things about Lee that like, after Lee got sick, he

784
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: reached out to them and was like I now like

785
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: we're friends now, even though like I we're I can

786
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: respect this person. I was never able to do that

787
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: when I before I got sick, But now I can

788
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: respect this person who I disagree with. They've become by

789
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: rock And it's just I think Lee just lied a

790
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: lot about who how much support he was getting, because

791
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: he wanted other people to talk well about him after

792
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: he died. I think that's most of what this is.

793
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: That's really bizarre. Yeah, and that's kind of what Roland's concludes.

794
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that in a little bit, but like, yeah,

795
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: on a so, yeah, he collapses at this at this fundraiser,

796
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: gets taken to the hospital. Doctors find out he's got

797
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 2: a brain tumor. Shortly thereafter, The New York Times wrote, quote,

798
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: after the tumor was diagnosed, mister Atwater assigned friends and

799
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: aids to research all aspects of the disease to help

800
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: decide on the best course of treatment. Our research, said,

801
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: and the further study of my scans kept us on

802
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: a roller coaster of good news and bad he said.

803
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: Then on March twenty first, we hit bottom, and it

804
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: was then that he learned that the tumor was way

805
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: worse than they had originally thought. He sees a healer

806
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: who tells him to get rid of his black t

807
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: shirts and start wearing red underwear, and he does this.

808
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: He tries massage therapy, but his particular cancer, it's this

809
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: brain tumor he's got, the only way they have of

810
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: treating it at that time. I don't know if we're

811
00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: much better at it.

812
00:38:59,719 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: Now.

813
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 2: They're literally drilling a hole into his head and dropping

814
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: little radioactive specs in there. So he has to like

815
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: sleep in a lead lined room in his own house,

816
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: and it swells his head up. Like he's too embarrassed

817
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: to be seen in public because his like head gets

818
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: massively swollen, like he does not. He looks like he's

819
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 2: dying horribly right, Like this is a really terrible death

820
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: that he dies, and he's aware of it the whole time.

821
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: There's a very unfortunate video of him like going out

822
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: in South Carolina one last time and singing I'm Bad

823
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: while deeply ill and like not able to get the lyrics,

824
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: and you can tell he just desperately wants to be

825
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: back at his height again, back like at this this

826
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: peak he'd inhabited not long earlier. He talks about that

827
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 2: a lot about like, and he'll give crowd pleasing speeches

828
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: about how I had everything just a little while ago,

829
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: and now I understand that like friends and family are

830
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 2: all that matter. But you can also tell like, I

831
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: don't know how much you believe that, Lee, I think

832
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 2: you would. You'd throw your friends and family away in

833
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: the second to be healthy, and a will to do

834
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: this for another.

835
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: Thirty years, just for a chance to go back to

836
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: what you were. Yeah, yeah, but he does.

837
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 2: There's a public perception that a change sweeps over at water.

838
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: He writes like an article for The Times about how

839
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 2: Baddie feels about all his dirty tricks. He starts reaching

840
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: out to people he'd harmed over the years. He sends

841
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: a letter to Tacaucus. He apologizes to him for the

842
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: making Willy Horton your running mate comment and also for

843
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 2: saying he intended to strip the bark off the little bastard.

844
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: He admitted to the naked cruelty of the remarks. He

845
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: also claimed to have sent an apology for Willy Horton. Now,

846
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: the Marshall Project talked to Horton, and Horton was like,

847
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: I didn't I don't remember getting it, but I got

848
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: a lot of mail back then, So maybe I just

849
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: missed it. That one's going to have to come down

850
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: as like kind of unknown because Horton wasn't willing to

851
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: didn't say it was a liar. Was like, no, I

852
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 2: literally might have missed it. Like there were a lot

853
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: of shit coming in back then. He does write apologies

854
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: to a lot of people. Now, depending on who you

855
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: ask his people who remained his critics will be like

856
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: he never repudiated the tactics. He never said that he

857
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: regretted helping out the Republican Party or everything he did

858
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: to win. He just regretted how hurtful some of the

859
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: specific things he did were, and he apologized to those individuals, right,

860
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: But he never repudiated the strategies that had brought him

861
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: wealth in power. And Jane Mayer who goes through after

862
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: his death and then after his wife's death, his kids

863
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: let Jane Mayer go through his papers for The New Yorker, right,

864
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 2: and like one of his daughters, who went on to

865
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: be a Democrat, is like, I'm not going to talk

866
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: about like my dad, what he did is in politics.

867
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: He was a good father during the time that I

868
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: knew him, But like you know, obviously as adults, they

869
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: thought that this stuff was important to get to a

870
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: journalist like given the influence he had creating the modern

871
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: Republican Party, and Mayer also interviewed members of his family,

872
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: His old partner, Roger Stone, she writes his memoir, calls

873
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: on politicians to instead follow the Golden Rule. Roger Stone,

874
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: who formed an early consulting and lobbing firm in the

875
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: Washington area with Atwater, remains unconvinced about atwater spiritual awakening.

876
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: Lee was a great storyteller, Stone told me in a

877
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: recent interview, but in the end he was just grasping

878
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: its straws. The Atwater family disagrees and has no doubt

879
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: that he became a Christian, but at that point he

880
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: was also a Buddhist, Hindu and everything else. He converted

881
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: to every faith under the sun, whatever religious leader he sees,

882
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: he's making a conversion.

883
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: That's that oldly that I know. That's that oldly we

884
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: know in love old.

885
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: Deathbed conversion Lee Atwater. And we'll talk some more about

886
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: Lee Atwater dying horribly, but first here's some ads and

887
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: we're back, so I want to read. There's a fascinating

888
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 2: paragraph from a Brooklyn Rail article Letter from the Trail

889
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: Atwater's Ghost that really gets into how Atwater paved the

890
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: way for Trump not just by normalizing ugly attacks and

891
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: making rhetoric meaner, but by destroying the credibility of even

892
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: mainstream Republican candidates. In other words, decades of Atwater politics

893
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: convinced conservative voters that there were no good candidates, not

894
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: even on their side, which was a necessary precursor to

895
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: Trump's rise to power. And this is something I didn't

896
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: really get the.

897
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: Time this article. Oh my god.

898
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me read this quote first and we'll talk

899
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: about it as that Water's progeny have become embedded in

900
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: the party. In its process, the constant stoking of fears

901
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: and the consistent personal attacks have eaten away at the

902
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 2: credibility if it's candidates, and in turn, the candidates don't

903
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: actually particularly require credibility to become the nominee. Far more

904
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: important is money, organization, effective destruction of the other, and

905
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: an ability to address as little as possible. The campaign

906
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: is now only about the campaign. Accordingly, mere electability becomes

907
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: the only major issue. The ability to campaign all that matters.

908
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: It is not he who is best to will win,

909
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: but he who best runs that will be awarded the

910
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: chance to run again.

911
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 4: It's so much of it is like disregarding, like accepting

912
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 4: that each each candidate, as like a person, obviously is

913
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 4: going to be terrible. And it's it's just about this

914
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 4: theatrical prosit right.

915
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: And who is best able to withstand it and endure it,

916
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: and which is not ever going to be someone who's

917
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: a good person anywhere clothes. Not that that's who was

918
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: getting elected before, but man, are you going to be worse? Right?

919
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: And there's one story from that Boogeyman documentary that I

920
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: find really funny about Lee near the end, which is

921
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: they talked to one of his like many R and

922
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: B singer friends, like one of these guys that who's

923
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: like a legitimate, like actual legend within the field, Chuck Jackson,

924
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: who like he played with from time to time and

925
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: who thought himself a friend of Lee's. And Chuck was

926
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: like when he got sick, you know, I gave him

927
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: a Bible and he told me, you know that this

928
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: really helped. This was like the one thing that helped

929
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: get me through. It was like, you know, coming back

930
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 2: to finding my faith, and you know, thank you you

931
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: played a big role in that giving me this Bible

932
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: and meant everything to me. And the documentary then cuts

933
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: to Ed Rowlands being like, well, I was talking to

934
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: a friend after they cleaned the stuff out of his

935
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: office and she found the Bible and it was still

936
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: wrapped in cell a fane and he was like.

937
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: Hell, that was Lay, that was Lee. That so every time,

938
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: and like he dies.

939
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 2: He dies at fucking forty, right at March nineteen ninety one,

940
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 2: after a year long fight against a brain tumor.

941
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: He is forty years old.

942
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: He probably never even got to sea Wild at Heart,

943
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: never got to see Wild at Heart. He did get

944
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: nominated for a Grammy that he does not get, for

945
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: this terrible album of his he gets not which is

946
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: listed as like one of the only things he wanted

947
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: out of life that he hadn't gotten is a Grammy.

948
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: But at least he got nominated before he died. He's

949
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: buried in his jogging suit and holding his Red, Hot

950
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: and Blue album.

951
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: So Grave Robbers, there's no yead water for his other work.

952
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 2: Better known for his other work destroying the country, helping

953
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: to right God, it's so funny. He's such a such

954
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: a fantastic piece of shit. There's a really good quote.

955
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: I also like that Brooklyn rail article describes his end

956
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: like his last months of life. So I'm going to

957
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 2: read that really quickly as we close out telling a

958
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: friend that it's all bullshit. The truth has nothing to

959
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: do with it.

960
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: At Water talk with you.

961
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: Regret of his actions, seemingly fearful of that which he

962
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: was leaving behind. Whether the repentance was genuine or just

963
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: a calculated attempt to gain passage to a peaceful afterlife

964
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: will never be discovered, but the damaging effects of his

965
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: earth bound legacy were plained to see in his home

966
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: of South Carolina. If one is seeking an analogy to

967
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: describe the current incarnation of the Republican Party, one could

968
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: do worse than a dying Lee at Water. It's brain

969
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: consumed with a deadly cancer, its words erratic, their credibility

970
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: under assault by its own crisis, its body radiated, fattened, atrophied.

971
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: At the last, the analogy runs dry, for while Lee

972
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: let out a cry for forgiveness, a plead to heaven,

973
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: the party in its voters seemed to be headed in

974
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: the opposite direction, and all of us going with them.

975
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: You know.

976
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: That's the one thing all of these negative articles about

977
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: Lee tended to have wrong was they all were written

978
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: more in the aughts. A lot of them came out

979
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: during like like this particular one that I'm quoting from

980
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: came out into the twelve so it's like the middle

981
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: of the Obama years, and like, no, no, no, this

982
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 2: is gonna work out a lot better for them than

983
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: you think it is. You're just irrationally optimistic right now

984
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 2: because we're in between shit storms. But uh boy, howdy,

985
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: oh he give you a couple more years, you'll be

986
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: writing different things about only Oh my, yep, how are

987
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: we doing?

988
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: Oh well, anyway, I mean.

989
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know what else there is to say.

990
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 4: I mean, he it's not it's not necessarily that like

991
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 4: he won, but like his shadow, I guess looms.

992
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, he taught them what they needed to know to

993
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: get to the next step. He was a trailblazer.

994
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 4: I guess people are contributing that trail even further than

995
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 4: what he had in mind. And yeah, maybe saw the

996
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 4: extension of where that trail would go and maybe that

997
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 4: like frightened him a little bit, but making the trail

998
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 4: was just too much fun.

999
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he may have hoped kind of half heartedly

1000
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: that like, ah, well, I got kids, he's starting because

1001
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: his kids are young when he dies. So maybe there's

1002
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: a maybe there's a moment in there where he's like,

1003
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: oh no, I may have left them a much worse world.

1004
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: And I had always kind of hoped I'd get enough

1005
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 2: time to like redeem myself, help somebod who didn't suck

1006
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: ask get elected president. Maybe I'm giving Lee too much

1007
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: credit there, right, I don't really think he became much better,

1008
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: but I'll believe he was worried about the future that

1009
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: he helped make.

1010
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 4: You know, we've got to have like a like a

1011
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 4: like a political position in the country, like like our

1012
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 4: like our national like riddler, you know, just somebody that

1013
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 4: can have fun, play some games, like we need we need.

1014
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: A fourth branch of the government that's the Riddler. Yes,

1015
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: because we could.

1016
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 4: We could save so much, so much trouble by just

1017
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 4: having people who who like need to be entertainment but

1018
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 4: can't quite cut it serve in public office. In some ways,

1019
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 4: it's kind of an extension of like of like of

1020
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 4: like a court gestor role. And I think this would

1021
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 4: be really helpful, Like if we should like nationalize like

1022
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 4: wrestling or something.

1023
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should nationalize wrestling. I've been saying for a

1024
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: while we need one one real use for like all

1025
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: of the AI chatbots, is we can create a fake

1026
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: Hollywood where like you give people like Ben Shapiro, like

1027
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: Hallmark movie budgets to write make better our movies, and

1028
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 2: we just generate fake fans for him, and we tricked

1029
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: them all into thinking that they're beloved creators. Can you

1030
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: give him award every now and then?

1031
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: Let's give me one of the greatest harbor mitigation operations

1032
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 1: of all time.

1033
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: We could have saved the country, you know, if we

1034
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: if we'd really gotten out of this early enough, we

1035
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: could have done a lot of good.

1036
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: Even even people on the left like this sort of thing.

1037
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 4: Like just this past weekend, Zoran did a massive scavenger

1038
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 4: hunt around New York City. Everyone wants to do this

1039
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. Yeah, and I think we should have

1040
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: a proper place for it.

1041
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: We should let that man play some mediocre blues.

1042
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, ah, god, if only I mean we started

1043
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: to figure that out. He got his album at the end,

1044
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: and you really got the feeling that, like, man, if

1045
00:49:59,160 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: if we.

1046
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: Had let him cut a blues album earlier, if he

1047
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: got that Grammy in the seventies.

1048
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need we need an organization doing what like

1049
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: the CIA used to do for like democracies in Latin America,

1050
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: but for like failed comedians that are clearly heading for

1051
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: the far right. We're like, no, no, no, you got

1052
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: to save this man's career.

1053
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 4: We got a possible Stephen Crowder situation developing. And look, look, Iowa, if.

1054
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan gets too into podcast, it's going to be

1055
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: a disaster for everybody else. You need to make get

1056
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 2: his acting career going, Get him a gig every two

1057
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: years with Adam Sandler in some dressing.

1058
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: Movie is a go.

1059
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: I can just imagine, like Adam Sandler's out in like

1060
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 2: the fucking Woods of Montana. A helicopter touches down a

1061
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: man from the ennis. Mister Sandler, sir, we need you

1062
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 2: to make another movie. Here's your cast list, sir. I

1063
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: get out of this business years ago.

1064
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ, So what's your job of government. I'm Adam

1065
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 4: Krolla is a fish handler.

1066
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I convinced Adam Carolla. Things are still going well.

1067
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: He's popular. Yes, it is a full time job.

1068
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 4: If the democratic like a leade cabal was real. This

1069
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 4: is what they should be doing.

1070
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: This, this is this is the actual need.

1071
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, Oh well, got anything you want to plug gear.

1072
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 4: Sure news podcast. It could happen here our weekly news

1073
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 4: roundup executive Disorder. I post about about yowie and conspiracy

1074
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 4: theories and other fun stuff that tackles my fancy on

1075
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 4: on Blue, Sky and X the everything app at by

1076
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 4: shown in type wrapping up a series right now for

1077
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 4: it could happen here on Blue and On Liberal conspiracy theories.

1078
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 4: So that'll probably be out by the time you listen

1079
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 4: to this, So fine to find that on it could

1080
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 4: happen here that will not.

1081
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 3: Be out by the time they listened to this. That'll

1082
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 3: be coming out well a couple days after this.

1083
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 4: Wrap after labor days. I'm still polishing this conspiracy turd.

1084
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, after labor Day, checkout check out my

1085
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 4: piece on Blue and On.

1086
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1087
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, everybody, And remember, folks, if you need

1088
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: to get a copy of the original album pressing of Red,

1089
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: Hot and Blue. Just finally at Water's Grave, there's a

1090
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 2: track sat in there too.

1091
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Jesus Christ, send it up with Voyager.

1092
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: We need the aliens to listen to this, Oh my God.

1093
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1094
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1095
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1096
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1097
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1098
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 3: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1099
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 3: at Behind the Bastards