WEBVTT - Key to Mideast Peace May Lurk Within the Economy

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<v Speaker 1>For more than half a century, the world's most vexing

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<v Speaker 1>geopolitical challenge has been how to bring peace and stability

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<v Speaker 1>to the Middle East, particularly between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

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<v Speaker 1>They largely don't have diplomatic relations with the Jewish State,

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<v Speaker 1>and Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories as a flashpoint

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<v Speaker 1>that embroils other nations, including the United States. A lasting

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<v Speaker 1>formula for peace is flamoxt generations of political leaders, and

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<v Speaker 1>yet out of the public eye, the wheels of peace

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<v Speaker 1>are turning, not at the diplomatic table, and not on

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<v Speaker 1>the vaunted roadmap, but in the world of business and

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<v Speaker 1>in the economy. And if those wheels keep spinning, maybe,

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<v Speaker 1>just maybe we'll see movement on the political side as well.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what we'll be talking about today on Benchmark. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Scott Landman and anomics editor with Bloomberg in Washington, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel Moss, Executive editor for Global Economics with Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>in New York. The reason peace is becoming less out

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<v Speaker 1>of reach note that contortion has to do with the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that Israel and its economy have been a hotbed

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<v Speaker 1>of technological innovation fees innovation that's forcing otherwise hostile Arab

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<v Speaker 1>neighbors to look at ways they could also benefit. Trade

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<v Speaker 1>and collaboration in technology and intelligence are flourishing below the

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<v Speaker 1>radar between Israel and a host of Arab states, one

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<v Speaker 1>of which is Saudi Arabia. The big question is whether

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<v Speaker 1>this is really putting us anywhere down the road to

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<v Speaker 1>a normalization of relations. There are a lot of caveats,

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<v Speaker 1>and whether this will affect relations with Palestinians or Iran

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<v Speaker 1>is another question. But just the fact that Israelis and Saudis,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, are quietly getting along in one way. As

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<v Speaker 1>a start, Let's turn to Jonathan Ferziger, a reporter for

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg in Tel Aviv. John has been following this angle closely.

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<v Speaker 1>He joined us today from our office that John, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for being with us. Thank you, Dan, It's good to

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<v Speaker 1>be with you both. But where are these connections happening

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<v Speaker 1>between Israeli's and people from Arab nations? Tell us the story.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of the connections are made in third countries, generally

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<v Speaker 1>in Europe and the US, but also close by and

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<v Speaker 1>Jordan and Turkey. Often the contacts are made at international

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<v Speaker 1>conferences or through middlemen. It's not really a new phenomenon.

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli's Arabs have been doing deals for years. But what's

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<v Speaker 1>new is that it's starting to come out of the closet.

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<v Speaker 1>And why do they have to go through such cloak

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<v Speaker 1>and dagger techniques to do this? And is it becoming

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<v Speaker 1>less than before because it's technically illegal um. The air

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<v Speaker 1>world is essentially officially at war um with Israel since

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<v Speaker 1>there have been peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan's, but

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<v Speaker 1>it is illegal in most of these Arab states to

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<v Speaker 1>do business with Israel. So what are these deals? How

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<v Speaker 1>are they happening? So the greatest demand right now is

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<v Speaker 1>for cybersecurity, that's where Israel has developed some of the

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<v Speaker 1>most advanced techniques Arab states. Also by Israel's desalination technology

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<v Speaker 1>and water management systems used informing the super secret stuff

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<v Speaker 1>involves military and aeronautic deals and they're done covertly with

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<v Speaker 1>some of Israel's biggest defense companies. So why are these

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of deals coming out of the closet now instead

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<v Speaker 1>of being concealed like you're before, Like you were talking about,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I said, they are technically illegal and they've been

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<v Speaker 1>going on for a long time, but the region is

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<v Speaker 1>changing um and a lot of the Gulf countries are

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<v Speaker 1>looking at Israel's technology and saying why not. They are

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<v Speaker 1>trying to find a solution to Houstindian problem that is

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<v Speaker 1>the guerrilla in the room. And meanwhile there is some

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<v Speaker 1>level of nuance trying to see if it's possible to

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<v Speaker 1>get these products um and still keep things this greet

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<v Speaker 1>and the respective governments where these companies are based. No,

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<v Speaker 1>this is going on. I know that, you know that,

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<v Speaker 1>I know that you know that. We know right, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of winking. Um it is h They don't

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<v Speaker 1>want this to come out publicly. There are corporate constructs

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<v Speaker 1>third countries and straw companies that are used to create

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<v Speaker 1>a level of plausible deniability. It's sort of like, um, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>why are you doing business with Israel? And you say back, WHOA,

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<v Speaker 1>I had no idea that companies Israelly. I was going

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<v Speaker 1>to say if, for example, if the businesses is technically illegal,

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<v Speaker 1>if the Saudi government decided, well, you know we we

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<v Speaker 1>want to shut this down where we want to sanction

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<v Speaker 1>these companies or put people in jail for dealing with Israel,

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<v Speaker 1>could they just snap their fingers and do that right

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<v Speaker 1>now since it's all out there. They absolutely could and

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<v Speaker 1>they have not put people in jail, but they've shut down, um,

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<v Speaker 1>certain businesses. I was talking to one guy that was

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<v Speaker 1>running tomatoes across the Jordanian border into Saudi Arabian and

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<v Speaker 1>it came out publicly. In fact, the competitors said, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on with Israeli tomatoes? And so they shut

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<v Speaker 1>down that border crossing or they wouldn't let the trucks

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<v Speaker 1>go through. But as some of these products, especially the

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<v Speaker 1>security products, the technology they want and they make it happen,

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<v Speaker 1>so hiding to sound like an echo on make determinates here,

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<v Speaker 1>it's follow the money and the ties will follow. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>that's true. They are trying to find a way to

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<v Speaker 1>thread this needle. Yes, there is a lot of history,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of hostility, but they're the Arab States

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<v Speaker 1>and Israel are looking at each other and saying, oh

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<v Speaker 1>my gosh, this going on for for seventy years, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>how can we do business together? Jonathan hold that thought.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to take a moment now to tell you

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<v Speaker 1>at Bloomberg dot com. Backslash lands. All right, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>back with Jonathan Ferziger. Jonathan, you wrote a lengthy article

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<v Speaker 1>for Bloomberg Business Week recently about this topic. In my opinion,

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of the most undertold parts of the Israel

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<v Speaker 1>story these days. You know. You all usually always here

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<v Speaker 1>is about about the issues between Israel and the Palestinians,

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<v Speaker 1>or the war in Syria, so on and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any chance that these kinds of business ties

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<v Speaker 1>are going to extend to the diplomatic sphere or have

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<v Speaker 1>they already extended in that direction. It's just something that

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<v Speaker 1>we don't hear about that much. Yes, it's happening. The

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<v Speaker 1>strongest expression is in the so called Arab Peace Initiative,

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<v Speaker 1>and that dates back to two thousand two. The deal

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<v Speaker 1>is that Israel can have peace and business relations with

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<v Speaker 1>fifty seven Muslim states the entire Arab world. Further um,

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<v Speaker 1>as long as it resolves things with the Palestinians, and

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<v Speaker 1>that would mean Israel's complete withdrawal from the West Bank

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<v Speaker 1>from the Gazasriban East Jerusalem, which Prime Minister N'tanyao is

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<v Speaker 1>not prepared to do. He says publicly that the air

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<v Speaker 1>Plan is a good start, but only if he can

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<v Speaker 1>fiddle with some of its provisions. So the business aspects

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<v Speaker 1>are not ready to come to the surface yet, but

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<v Speaker 1>they're happening, okay. But there we seem stuck in the

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<v Speaker 1>traditional dialogue when what's actually happening sub rosa is corporate

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<v Speaker 1>links between Israeli based companies and Arab firms are becoming

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<v Speaker 1>more and more intimate. That's right. One of the uh

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<v Speaker 1>interesting bits of the story that was in Bloomberg Business

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<v Speaker 1>Week was about one of the biggest defense companies in Israel.

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<v Speaker 1>It's called Albert Systems, and they're interesting for lots of reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>For one thing, the shares trade on Nasdack. Just two

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, one of Elbot's employees from the u S

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<v Speaker 1>subsidiary went to Saudi Arabia to fix a missile installation. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff is usually kept secret. In this case,

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<v Speaker 1>the Elbot employee was found dead outside his hotel. It's

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<v Speaker 1>still not certain if he was murdered or jumped out

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<v Speaker 1>of the window, but it's the most public evidence so

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<v Speaker 1>far that a big Israeli company like Elbot is active

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<v Speaker 1>in Saudi Arabia. That this mysterious death peaked our curiosity.

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<v Speaker 1>So my Blumber colleague Peter Walton, went to Elbert's US

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<v Speaker 1>facility in New Hampshire and he found some interesting practices.

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<v Speaker 1>The employees there told him that when Gulf customers come

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<v Speaker 1>to visit, managers would take down Hebrew signs, maps, and

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<v Speaker 1>any markings indicating Israeli origins. I called Elbot spokeswoman about that,

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<v Speaker 1>and she said that's not company policy. I found that

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<v Speaker 1>anecdote really interesting, Jonathan, because you know, wouldn't these Gulf

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<v Speaker 1>customers know that Elbot is an Israeli company even if

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<v Speaker 1>they're visiting the office in the US, whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>that's officially company policy. That sounds kind of like a

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<v Speaker 1>um non denial of the of the information you had

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<v Speaker 1>in the story. But you know, is that really just

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<v Speaker 1>for show purposes? Just to kind of keep up the

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<v Speaker 1>fiction that these Arab states are not dealing directly with

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli Israeli companies, Well, of course, yes, no, um, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a general sense that um these are that there

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<v Speaker 1>their relations between two and yes, if you look at Elbot, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>any serious customer knows that Elbot Systems of America is

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<v Speaker 1>a branch of the Israeli company. So yes, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of thinking and nodding, talk about winks and nods.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most compelling anecdotes Jonathan, is how is

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<v Speaker 1>Riley technology almost got used and how the Saudi royal

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<v Speaker 1>family manages the pilgrimage to Mecca of all things. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>This grew out of a mega project in which a

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<v Speaker 1>security system that was developed on an Israeli key boots

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<v Speaker 1>on a farm was installed in the Gulf Emirate of

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<v Speaker 1>Abu Dhabi. The contract was worth about six billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>That got the company's chairman thinking about how to sell

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<v Speaker 1>elsewhere in the Gulf, with the ultimate prize being Saudi Arabia.

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<v Speaker 1>And it took a lot of nerve, you might say,

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<v Speaker 1>hutzba to pitch this contract. The idea was to root

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<v Speaker 1>out unauthorized people who try to reach Mecca during the

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<v Speaker 1>annual Hodge religious pilgrimage. In the end, the deal went

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<v Speaker 1>to a Saudi company, even though the Israeli technology is

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<v Speaker 1>said to have been judged to be the best. Now

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<v Speaker 1>these ties happening as the Saudi Arabian government itself wants

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<v Speaker 1>to reinventage economy. Talk about that a bit. It's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>The guy in charge of overhauling the economy in Saudi

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<v Speaker 1>Arabia is the Deputy Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Selman. He

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't come out and say this openly, but some of

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<v Speaker 1>his aids are very clear that Israel is on their map.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a Sally lobbyist in Washington we talked to who's

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<v Speaker 1>close to the Deputy Crown Prince, and he told us

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<v Speaker 1>there's no question that they're in the market for Israeli

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<v Speaker 1>technology again in the fields of cyber security, desalination, and agriculture.

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<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, when we asked for a Palace response,

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<v Speaker 1>the official position was that Saudi Arabia has no commercial

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<v Speaker 1>relations with Israel. So the bottom line here is this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of peace in the business and economic world going

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<v Speaker 1>to keep extending, keeps breading, deepening, regardless of what happens

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<v Speaker 1>with the Israel and Palestinian question. Well, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's certainly possible, but but heart safe. For sure. The

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<v Speaker 1>formula of business essentially lubricating the way for political compromise

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<v Speaker 1>has been out there for decades um. Certainly it's part

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<v Speaker 1>of the Oslo Piece Accords. There's some strong political forces

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<v Speaker 1>and strategic interests that are bringing the Gulf States to

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<v Speaker 1>build ties with Israel. But again, nobody wants to be

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<v Speaker 1>seen as abandoning the Palestinians. So most people I talked

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<v Speaker 1>to said that the prospects for public deals with Israel

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<v Speaker 1>are still pretty dim for now. At the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>this under the radar business keeps on growing. So with

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<v Speaker 1>these economic and technological forces bearing down relentlessly on the relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>is it entirely possible peace could be made among these

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<v Speaker 1>nations the Palestinians left at the altar. You know, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that that's going to happen. Although it looks

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<v Speaker 1>like it. Every time that a deal uh looks like

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's coming together, it doesn't. There have been fifty

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<v Speaker 1>years since the nineties seven Six Day War, and every

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<v Speaker 1>time that you have a piece initiative. It just seems

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<v Speaker 1>to fall through the through the cracks now as far

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<v Speaker 1>as business happening despite the absence of a deal, as

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<v Speaker 1>I say, it is growing under the radar um, but

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that they're ready to leave the Palestinians

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<v Speaker 1>high and try like that. Jonathan, this has just been

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<v Speaker 1>a really interesting talk. The article you wrote is fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>and I would urge anybody listening to this podcast to

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<v Speaker 1>go and check out that article in Business Week. Jonathan Ferziger,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Scott,

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks Dan. Benchmark will be back next week and until then,

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<v Speaker 1>and let us know what you thought of the show.

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<v Speaker 1>You can follow me on Twitter at at Scott Landman,

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<v Speaker 1>Dan you are at moss Underscore Echo, and Jonathan you're

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<v Speaker 1>at at at. Benchmark is produced by Sarah Patterson and

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<v Speaker 1>the head of Bloomberg Podcast is Alec McCabe. Thanks for listening,

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<v Speaker 1>so you next time