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Speaker 1: For more than half a century, the world's most vexing

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Speaker 1: geopolitical challenge has been how to bring peace and stability

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East, particularly between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

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Speaker 1: They largely don't have diplomatic relations with the Jewish State,

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Speaker 1: and Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories as a flashpoint

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Speaker 1: that embroils other nations, including the United States. A lasting

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Speaker 1: formula for peace is flamoxt generations of political leaders, and

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Speaker 1: yet out of the public eye, the wheels of peace

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Speaker 1: are turning, not at the diplomatic table, and not on

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Speaker 1: the vaunted roadmap, but in the world of business and

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Speaker 1: in the economy. And if those wheels keep spinning, maybe,

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Speaker 1: just maybe we'll see movement on the political side as well.

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Speaker 1: That's what we'll be talking about today on Benchmark. I'm

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Speaker 1: Scott Landman and anomics editor with Bloomberg in Washington, and

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel Moss, Executive editor for Global Economics with Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: in New York. The reason peace is becoming less out

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Speaker 1: of reach note that contortion has to do with the

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Speaker 1: fact that Israel and its economy have been a hotbed

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Speaker 1: of technological innovation fees innovation that's forcing otherwise hostile Arab

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Speaker 1: neighbors to look at ways they could also benefit. Trade

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Speaker 1: and collaboration in technology and intelligence are flourishing below the

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Speaker 1: radar between Israel and a host of Arab states, one

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Speaker 1: of which is Saudi Arabia. The big question is whether

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Speaker 1: this is really putting us anywhere down the road to

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Speaker 1: a normalization of relations. There are a lot of caveats,

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Speaker 1: and whether this will affect relations with Palestinians or Iran

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Speaker 1: is another question. But just the fact that Israelis and Saudis,

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Speaker 1: for example, are quietly getting along in one way. As

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Speaker 1: a start, Let's turn to Jonathan Ferziger, a reporter for

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg in Tel Aviv. John has been following this angle closely.

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Speaker 1: He joined us today from our office that John, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Thank you, Dan, It's good to

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Speaker 1: be with you both. But where are these connections happening

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Speaker 1: between Israeli's and people from Arab nations? Tell us the story.

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Speaker 1: Most of the connections are made in third countries, generally

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Speaker 1: in Europe and the US, but also close by and

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Speaker 1: Jordan and Turkey. Often the contacts are made at international

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Speaker 1: conferences or through middlemen. It's not really a new phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: Israeli's Arabs have been doing deals for years. But what's

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Speaker 1: new is that it's starting to come out of the closet.

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Speaker 1: And why do they have to go through such cloak

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Speaker 1: and dagger techniques to do this? And is it becoming

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Speaker 1: less than before because it's technically illegal um. The air

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Speaker 1: world is essentially officially at war um with Israel since

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Speaker 1: there have been peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan's, but

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Speaker 1: it is illegal in most of these Arab states to

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Speaker 1: do business with Israel. So what are these deals? How

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Speaker 1: are they happening? So the greatest demand right now is

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Speaker 1: for cybersecurity, that's where Israel has developed some of the

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Speaker 1: most advanced techniques Arab states. Also by Israel's desalination technology

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Speaker 1: and water management systems used informing the super secret stuff

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Speaker 1: involves military and aeronautic deals and they're done covertly with

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Speaker 1: some of Israel's biggest defense companies. So why are these

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Speaker 1: kinds of deals coming out of the closet now instead

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Speaker 1: of being concealed like you're before, Like you were talking about,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, they are technically illegal and they've been

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Speaker 1: going on for a long time, but the region is

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Speaker 1: changing um and a lot of the Gulf countries are

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Speaker 1: looking at Israel's technology and saying why not. They are

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Speaker 1: trying to find a solution to Houstindian problem that is

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Speaker 1: the guerrilla in the room. And meanwhile there is some

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Speaker 1: level of nuance trying to see if it's possible to

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Speaker 1: get these products um and still keep things this greet

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Speaker 1: and the respective governments where these companies are based. No,

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Speaker 1: this is going on. I know that, you know that,

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Speaker 1: I know that you know that. We know right, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of winking. Um it is h They don't

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Speaker 1: want this to come out publicly. There are corporate constructs

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Speaker 1: third countries and straw companies that are used to create

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Speaker 1: a level of plausible deniability. It's sort of like, um, hey,

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Speaker 1: why are you doing business with Israel? And you say back, WHOA,

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Speaker 1: I had no idea that companies Israelly. I was going

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Speaker 1: to say if, for example, if the businesses is technically illegal,

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Speaker 1: if the Saudi government decided, well, you know we we

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Speaker 1: want to shut this down where we want to sanction

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Speaker 1: these companies or put people in jail for dealing with Israel,

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Speaker 1: could they just snap their fingers and do that right

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Speaker 1: now since it's all out there. They absolutely could and

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Speaker 1: they have not put people in jail, but they've shut down, um,

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Speaker 1: certain businesses. I was talking to one guy that was

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Speaker 1: running tomatoes across the Jordanian border into Saudi Arabian and

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Speaker 1: it came out publicly. In fact, the competitors said, hey,

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Speaker 1: what's going on with Israeli tomatoes? And so they shut

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Speaker 1: down that border crossing or they wouldn't let the trucks

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Speaker 1: go through. But as some of these products, especially the

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Speaker 1: security products, the technology they want and they make it happen,

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Speaker 1: so hiding to sound like an echo on make determinates here,

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Speaker 1: it's follow the money and the ties will follow. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's true. They are trying to find a way to

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Speaker 1: thread this needle. Yes, there is a lot of history,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of hostility, but they're the Arab States

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Speaker 1: and Israel are looking at each other and saying, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, this going on for for seventy years, Um,

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Speaker 1: how can we do business together? Jonathan hold that thought.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a moment now to tell you

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. Backslash lands. All right, and we're

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Speaker 1: back with Jonathan Ferziger. Jonathan, you wrote a lengthy article

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Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Business Week recently about this topic. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the most undertold parts of the Israel

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Speaker 1: story these days. You know. You all usually always here

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Speaker 1: is about about the issues between Israel and the Palestinians,

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Speaker 1: or the war in Syria, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Is there any chance that these kinds of business ties

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Speaker 1: are going to extend to the diplomatic sphere or have

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Speaker 1: they already extended in that direction. It's just something that

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Speaker 1: we don't hear about that much. Yes, it's happening. The

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Speaker 1: strongest expression is in the so called Arab Peace Initiative,

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Speaker 1: and that dates back to two thousand two. The deal

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Speaker 1: is that Israel can have peace and business relations with

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Speaker 1: fifty seven Muslim states the entire Arab world. Further um,

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Speaker 1: as long as it resolves things with the Palestinians, and

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Speaker 1: that would mean Israel's complete withdrawal from the West Bank

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Speaker 1: from the Gazasriban East Jerusalem, which Prime Minister N'tanyao is

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Speaker 1: not prepared to do. He says publicly that the air

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Speaker 1: Plan is a good start, but only if he can

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Speaker 1: fiddle with some of its provisions. So the business aspects

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Speaker 1: are not ready to come to the surface yet, but

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Speaker 1: they're happening, okay. But there we seem stuck in the

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Speaker 1: traditional dialogue when what's actually happening sub rosa is corporate

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Speaker 1: links between Israeli based companies and Arab firms are becoming

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Speaker 1: more and more intimate. That's right. One of the uh

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Speaker 1: interesting bits of the story that was in Bloomberg Business

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Speaker 1: Week was about one of the biggest defense companies in Israel.

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Speaker 1: It's called Albert Systems, and they're interesting for lots of reasons.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, the shares trade on Nasdack. Just two

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Speaker 1: years ago, one of Elbot's employees from the u S

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Speaker 1: subsidiary went to Saudi Arabia to fix a missile installation. Now,

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff is usually kept secret. In this case,

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Speaker 1: the Elbot employee was found dead outside his hotel. It's

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Speaker 1: still not certain if he was murdered or jumped out

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Speaker 1: of the window, but it's the most public evidence so

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Speaker 1: far that a big Israeli company like Elbot is active

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Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia. That this mysterious death peaked our curiosity.

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Speaker 1: So my Blumber colleague Peter Walton, went to Elbert's US

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Speaker 1: facility in New Hampshire and he found some interesting practices.

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Speaker 1: The employees there told him that when Gulf customers come

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Speaker 1: to visit, managers would take down Hebrew signs, maps, and

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Speaker 1: any markings indicating Israeli origins. I called Elbot spokeswoman about that,

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Speaker 1: and she said that's not company policy. I found that

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Speaker 1: anecdote really interesting, Jonathan, because you know, wouldn't these Gulf

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Speaker 1: customers know that Elbot is an Israeli company even if

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Speaker 1: they're visiting the office in the US, whether or not

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Speaker 1: that's officially company policy. That sounds kind of like a

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Speaker 1: um non denial of the of the information you had

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Speaker 1: in the story. But you know, is that really just

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Speaker 1: for show purposes? Just to kind of keep up the

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Speaker 1: fiction that these Arab states are not dealing directly with

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Speaker 1: Israeli Israeli companies, Well, of course, yes, no, um, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a general sense that um these are that there

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Speaker 1: their relations between two and yes, if you look at Elbot, uh,

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Speaker 1: any serious customer knows that Elbot Systems of America is

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Speaker 1: a branch of the Israeli company. So yes, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of thinking and nodding, talk about winks and nods.

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Speaker 1: One of the most compelling anecdotes Jonathan, is how is

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Speaker 1: Riley technology almost got used and how the Saudi royal

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Speaker 1: family manages the pilgrimage to Mecca of all things. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This grew out of a mega project in which a

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Speaker 1: security system that was developed on an Israeli key boots

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Speaker 1: on a farm was installed in the Gulf Emirate of

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Speaker 1: Abu Dhabi. The contract was worth about six billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: That got the company's chairman thinking about how to sell

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Speaker 1: elsewhere in the Gulf, with the ultimate prize being Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 1: And it took a lot of nerve, you might say,

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Speaker 1: hutzba to pitch this contract. The idea was to root

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Speaker 1: out unauthorized people who try to reach Mecca during the

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Speaker 1: annual Hodge religious pilgrimage. In the end, the deal went

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Speaker 1: to a Saudi company, even though the Israeli technology is

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Speaker 1: said to have been judged to be the best. Now

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Speaker 1: these ties happening as the Saudi Arabian government itself wants

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Speaker 1: to reinventage economy. Talk about that a bit. It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: The guy in charge of overhauling the economy in Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabia is the Deputy Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Selman. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't come out and say this openly, but some of

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Speaker 1: his aids are very clear that Israel is on their map.

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Speaker 1: There's a Sally lobbyist in Washington we talked to who's

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Speaker 1: close to the Deputy Crown Prince, and he told us

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Speaker 1: there's no question that they're in the market for Israeli

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Speaker 1: technology again in the fields of cyber security, desalination, and agriculture.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, when we asked for a Palace response,

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Speaker 1: the official position was that Saudi Arabia has no commercial

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Speaker 1: relations with Israel. So the bottom line here is this

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Speaker 1: kind of peace in the business and economic world going

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Speaker 1: to keep extending, keeps breading, deepening, regardless of what happens

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Speaker 1: with the Israel and Palestinian question. Well, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's certainly possible, but but heart safe. For sure. The

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Speaker 1: formula of business essentially lubricating the way for political compromise

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Speaker 1: has been out there for decades um. Certainly it's part

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Speaker 1: of the Oslo Piece Accords. There's some strong political forces

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Speaker 1: and strategic interests that are bringing the Gulf States to

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Speaker 1: build ties with Israel. But again, nobody wants to be

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Speaker 1: seen as abandoning the Palestinians. So most people I talked

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Speaker 1: to said that the prospects for public deals with Israel

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Speaker 1: are still pretty dim for now. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: this under the radar business keeps on growing. So with

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Speaker 1: these economic and technological forces bearing down relentlessly on the relationship,

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Speaker 1: is it entirely possible peace could be made among these

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Speaker 1: nations the Palestinians left at the altar. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that that's going to happen. Although it looks

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Speaker 1: like it. Every time that a deal uh looks like

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Speaker 1: it's it's coming together, it doesn't. There have been fifty

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Speaker 1: years since the nineties seven Six Day War, and every

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Speaker 1: time that you have a piece initiative. It just seems

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Speaker 1: to fall through the through the cracks now as far

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Speaker 1: as business happening despite the absence of a deal, as

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Speaker 1: I say, it is growing under the radar um, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think that they're ready to leave the Palestinians

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Speaker 1: high and try like that. Jonathan, this has just been

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Speaker 1: a really interesting talk. The article you wrote is fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I would urge anybody listening to this podcast to

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Speaker 1: go and check out that article in Business Week. Jonathan Ferziger,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Scott,

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Speaker 1: Thanks Dan. Benchmark will be back next week and until then,

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Speaker 1: you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 1: or Bloomberg app, as well as on Apple Podcasts, pocket Casts,

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Speaker 1: and Stitcher. While you're there, take a minute to rate

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Speaker 1: and review the show so more listeners can find us

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Speaker 1: and let us know what you thought of the show.

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Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at at Scott Landman,

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Speaker 1: Dan you are at moss Underscore Echo, and Jonathan you're

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Speaker 1: at at at. Benchmark is produced by Sarah Patterson and

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Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcast is Alec McCabe. Thanks for listening,

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Speaker 1: so you next time