1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and SMITHSA and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: I never told you protection of I Heart Radio. So 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: for today's episode, before we get started, we did want 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: to put a trigger warning at the top um for grief, 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: loss and death. And certainly I will say take this 6 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: seriously if you're if you're struggling with um any kind 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: of loss in your life, our grief, because I cried 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: researching this episode, and I honestly it takes a lot 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: to make me cry for research. So just put that 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: out there, um. And this is a listener suggestion, So 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: thanks for sending um um. This listener wrote in about 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: being quote that girl that lost their partner, being in 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: a triad, and the different ways of coping with shared grief, 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: how to live with it, how it impacts you for 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: the rest of your life, and how everyone wants to 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: fix you but they don't know how. So yes, we're 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: talking about grief and loss of love and partner right 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: and at the beginning, we're gonna go ahead and tell 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: you this is not a solution. This is not an 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: episode telling you how to do something or that we've 21 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: gotten answer for some things. More so than more so 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: that we were talking about what does it look like 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: what are we facing and maybe even the differences with 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: the pandemic that are happening today. Yes, yes, so we've 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: talked about grieving and loss before, but we didn't necessarily 26 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: talk about losing a romantic partner and what that's like. UM. 27 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: And disclaimer again, most of this research is about married 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: sis heterosexual couples, UM. And unfortunately it's not because we 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. It's because a the 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: lack of research be uh. Sometimes they're refusal for acknowledging 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: these other relationships as being legitimate as we want to 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: say we do and um, but just to put it 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: out there, and largely is again focused in the western 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: world in the US, but we really do want to 35 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: come back and look at all of those in other countries. UM. 36 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: India for example, has the most widows. So we do 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: want to have a bigger conversation, but kind of just 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: slowly drawing it out. And again, as you heard, this 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: is a really difficult topic. So I feel like they 40 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: need to be done in small increments. Yes, and we'll 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: probably bring it back as a classic soon. UM that 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: Kristen and Caroline did an episode on the widowhood effect 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: a while back, and we're going to talk about that 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: a little bit in here, But um, if you are 45 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: looking for more information on this and the history of 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: it too, then that would be an excellent resource for you. 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: And one thing I did want to include in here 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: because I honestly was confused about this and I just 49 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: never had the real impetus to look it up. What's 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: the difference between widow and widower? So from grammarist quote, 51 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: a widow is a woman whose spouse has died. The 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: word usually refers to a bereaved woman who has not remarried. 53 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: Widower is simply the male equivalent of widow. It refers 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: to a man who has lost his spouse and has 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: not remarried. The word comes from Old English, where widow 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: was widow you and widower was widow awa. That's probably 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: not you pronounce it, but my Old English is a 58 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: little rusty believer. It's better than what I would have done, 59 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: so good job, and we did try to get to 60 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: the bottom of that. For the most of this episode, 61 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: we are talking about women and widows, but sometimes people 62 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: do use them interchangeably, so it can get confusing still, 63 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: but we'll try to specify where those cases are so yeah, 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: And go into some stats that are about thirteen point 65 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: six million widows in the US, and every year about 66 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: seven hundred thousand women are widowed. About eleven million of 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: those thirteen point six million are women, and women are 68 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: four times likelier to outlive their husbands in heterosexual context. 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: The gap gets worse with age, and when we look 70 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: at the eighty five and older category, the number of 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: female widows is almost double that compared to men, and 72 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: female widows are less likely to get remarried. Not that 73 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: that means you can't find meaningful relationships outside of marriage, 74 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: but there are less men to choose from, and over 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: half the widows in the U s are under sixty right, 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,559 Speaker 1: So when when we look at this um, the loss 77 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: of a romantic partner is a life altering traumatic event. 78 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: It's like losing a piece of yourself. The homes Ray 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Life Stress Inventory classifies quote death of a spouse as 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: a one hundred, and that's the highest score possible. The 81 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: greeting process that follows is a messy and confusing and painful, 82 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: and it looks different for everyone. Anger survivor's gale, confusion, 83 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: difficulty concentrating, quick to tears, inability to sleep or eat 84 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: or make a decision, and there are probably a lot 85 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: of big decisions that you need to make in that time. 86 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: All of those things are a normal part of mourning. 87 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: It is is not a linear process. There are good 88 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: days and there are bad days, and it never completely 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: goes away. You don't completely get over it. As they say, 90 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: small things like smells, foods, items others might see as 91 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: unimportant suddenly become the most important thing. Your life plans 92 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: are put on hold indefinitely or sometimes even go out 93 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: the window entirely right. Multiple studies have found that losing 94 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: a partner is one of the most likely events to 95 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: lead to depression. It is a huge cause of life 96 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: stress and leaves those grievings susceptible to chronic stress that 97 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: can lower life expectancy. Some studies suggest heartbreak can cause 98 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: stroke or heart attack in a small number of people, 99 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: problems which are exacerbated with age, and for some the 100 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: depression and stress becomes so entrenched for so long psychiatrists 101 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,679 Speaker 1: sometimes can't tell those symptoms apart from major depressed disorder 102 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: m d D. There's even a footnote about it in 103 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: the DS in five. Further complicating this, is the vast 104 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: variety of symptoms, and many that differed depending on the 105 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: nature of the loss, like was it sudden, how was 106 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: a relationship prior? Things? Things like that factor into how 107 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: grief manifest Yes, um, and I know I've said it before. 108 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: One of my favorite quotes from Buffy the Vampire Slayers 109 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: the episode her Mom Dies and Buffy asked Tara about 110 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: her her mom's death, and Buffy asked, was it sudden? 111 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: And tre kind of pauses and she says, it's always sudden, 112 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: which I love. And we we have talked about the complications, 113 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: the health complications of heartbreak before pretty recently, if you 114 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: want to go check that out to A study of 115 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: looking into the likelihood of developing severe depression after the 116 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: death of a partner found that one of the most 117 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: reported symptoms was loneliness, and that the loneliness triggered other 118 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: depressive symptoms that are very hard to break free from. However, 119 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: it did find that only a minority of people developed 120 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: severe depression. Those dealing with this type of loss are 121 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: also at a higher risk of think, engaging in unhealthy 122 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: coping behaviors like alcohol, drugs, and in general not taking 123 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: care of yourself. Suicide is also a risk. Widows are 124 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: two point five times likelier to kill themselves as compared 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: to the general population. In the first year after the loss, 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: there are increased risk of dying from car accidents, cancer, 127 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: heart attacks, and strokes. Like we said earlier, um And, 128 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: all of this collectively is called the widowhood effect. A 129 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: meta analysis on this from found that compared to married people, 130 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: widowhood was associated with an increased risk of death of 131 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: up to This is most pronounced in young widows classified 132 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: as in their forties and fifties, but the numbers are 133 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: pretty much the same for younger widows. They're just rarer. 134 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: The first three months after being widowed, the surviving partner's 135 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: risk of death has been documented as high as sixty 136 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: six percent. Although the numbers do vary pretty significantly when 137 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: you separate out the health of relationship, how the person died, 138 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: and the type of negative outcome, those are still some 139 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: pretty stark numbers. Over at the Globe and Mail, Christina 140 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: Frengo wrote about her experience becoming a widow at thirty 141 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: six and It's incredibly painful but really moving peace um 142 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: And In it, she describes being a widow like being 143 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: cast in a role that she was not prepared for. 144 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: She didn't have the tools she needed to do this. 145 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: Um and yeah. Just when you share your life with 146 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: someone like that and then they're not there anymore. How 147 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: there are all these things that that means and all 148 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: these reminders every day, um and yeah, it was really 149 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: it was a really beautiful thing. Right. We've also discussed 150 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: how women are likelier to have a support group, which 151 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: is one of the best things to help someone through grief. 152 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: From an actual study, quote, sudden unexpected deaths of wives 153 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: will be more harmful for men than expected wife death 154 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: as men gain more from marriage and may need more 155 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: assistance compensating for the loss of a wife. Oppositeable occur 156 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: amount wives. Women may provide more care dispouses with chronic conditions, 157 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: which may have harmful effects on their health. Yeah, so 158 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: just to reiterate, that is from a twenty fourteen right study, 159 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: that's not like it was from the sixties seventies. Uh. 160 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: But anyway, we do have some more for your listeners, 161 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: But first we have a quick break for a word 162 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. And 163 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: we did want to touch on the point that the 164 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: listener who suggested this made about people wanting to fix 165 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: you after the loss of a partner, because I, at 166 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: least in my research, I noticed that Google seems to 167 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: confirm that that is very much the thing, with all 168 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: the top results for losing a partner being articles about 169 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: how to quote, get over it, or works through it, 170 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: which makes sense when you see someone you care about hurting, 171 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: you want to help, but there is no easy fix. 172 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: UM like, I can't imagine finding an article just here 173 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: are your seven steps and you'll be fine. One of 174 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: the top suggested searches where how long does grief last 175 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: after the death of a spouse, which I thought was 176 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: also enlightening. UM studies suggest that widows lose up to 177 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: their support group after all loss, and many described feeling 178 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: invisible and and sort of people are there for you, 179 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: maybe in the month to three months right after, but 180 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: then they drop away and not knowing how to deal 181 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: with you or how to approach your grief for mentioning 182 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: this lost partner and sort of fading away because of that. Right, So, 183 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: while social support is a huge help, it's often not 184 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: quite enough. Many need therapy just as a reminder, whether 185 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: or not they have access to it, that's a whole 186 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: different story, so and that that's something that we should 187 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: be talking about as well. Access But I digress. And 188 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: it is true that after such a really big, significant loss, 189 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: people in your social circles might start thinking of you 190 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: as the girl who lost her partner, and, like the 191 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: listener said, which makes it harder to move on, which 192 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: is because it's a constant reminder that just hangs and 193 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: looms over and on top of that, people try to 194 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: get to suss out if you're grieving correctly and how 195 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: you're doing it and what you're doing and if it's 196 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: not okay and how it's okay, but things like are 197 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: you too sad? Um not sad enough? Which can make 198 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: you feel really self conscious. And then when it comes 199 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: to dating other people after loss, there's judgment and guilt 200 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: there too. Um. I couldn't imagine because you have to 201 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I have to wait just so long 202 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: enough or you know, did this not long enough? How 203 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine trying to pick back up. Oh yeah, well, 204 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: and I feel like there would be not only would 205 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: you have those external people judging you and worry about that, 206 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: but even I would guess you feel quite conflicted yourself. Right, 207 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot definitely the level of that guilt, yeah yeah, 208 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, And and there's so many layers of that too, 209 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: like did you have children, did you have a house together? 210 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: All these things factoring in and like we said, you 211 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: know that you're gonna have good days and bad days. 212 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: So it's not as if you've suddenly reached a point 213 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 1: and you have quote moved on or it is okay, 214 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: Um that that could bounce all over the place, right. 215 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: And again it's also like work, have you come back 216 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: to work too soon? Did you come back in time? 217 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: I know, I've definitely seen moments where you see bosses 218 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: not being understanding enough, you know, or or just having 219 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: the will to do. So what does that look like? Yeah? Yeah, um, 220 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: And these are all things just like a storm inside 221 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: of you. And going back to dating, Uh, this it's 222 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: just a whole a whole can of worms, because there 223 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: are those feelings of guilt around being happy with someone else, 224 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: about not doing more date activities with your partner when 225 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: they were alive, um, sharing a home you and your 226 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: partner built with someone else. So you'll I read a 227 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: lot of articles where people are saying I had questions 228 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: like what do you do with pictures of you and 229 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: your partner? When is the right time to take them down? 230 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: Is there ever right time to take them down? What 231 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: do you do with their stuff when you put that away? 232 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: Do you donate it? If you're married and you have 233 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: a ring, do you take off the wedding ring? If 234 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: you have kids, when do you introduce them to someone new? 235 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: And how do you manage taking care of them by 236 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: yourself when you're struggling so much with all of this grief, 237 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: and then the kind of external questions of you know, 238 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: people thinking, how could you ever be happy with someone else? 239 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: I thought you had true love that's only once in 240 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: a lifetime thing, which is not true And we'll talk 241 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: about that order minute, but right, and uh, I don't know. 242 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: I've actually read recently um the reddit form called am 243 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: I the ass had a big question and this dude 244 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: who they his wife wasn't married to him, but she 245 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: was engaged to him, and she had the ring and 246 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: something happened where it came out about and he like 247 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: think either gave it away, through it away or something 248 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: because he was so tired of her grieving over this man. 249 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: And I was just like oh my god. And it 250 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: wasn't like she was grieving. It was something to do 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: with the anniversary of that time of the death or something, 252 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: and he was just so I was just so taken. Aback, 253 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: I was like. But then that's the other question is 254 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: if you do have a new partner, how do you 255 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: make sure they feel secure? Hopefully they would be secure, 256 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: but that that those questions and guilt also float about um. 257 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: And it's true, as we were saying, studies have found 258 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: people judge widows dating more harshly than we do divorce. 259 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: So that's a whole big question, which is kind of 260 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: like what we do, okay, And back in Victorian times, 261 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: women who could afford it were expected to wear widows 262 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: weeds and limit their appearance in public for at least 263 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: a year, usually more than two and a half years, 264 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: and if going out was necessary, they had to cover 265 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: their face with a veil. And we found an ad 266 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: for London General Morning Warehouse for this very thing, Yeah, 267 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: which through my mind phenomenal. I do think about the 268 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: old Victorian movies where there's always that woman who's lost 269 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: her husband and shamed, but she's the rebel because she 270 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: came out too early and it was like a year after, 271 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: you travel in different movie circles than I was. True. 272 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: I will trust that is true. My my reference should 273 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: be more like horror movies where the ghost is like 274 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: a widowed woman. I mean, I was. I definitely just 275 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: watched a really bad horror movie where he was a widower. 276 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: Now that I know the correct term and what happens 277 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: with grief, there are a lot of them out there 278 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: because we are afraid. We're afraid of grief and grieving 279 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: women people in general, but especially grieving women. We don't 280 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: know what to do. Uh. Similar to what we talked 281 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: about in our love episode. Our pop culture is big 282 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: on that idea of yeah, the one, and that can 283 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: be extremely upsetting if you lose your partner. Psychologists write 284 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: about being in love with two people at once. If 285 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: you find a new love after you've lost your partner, 286 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: the person who has gone and the one who isn't 287 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: dating someone new does not mean that you are over it. 288 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: And Pat Oswald described this whole situation as getting struck 289 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: by lightning twice of finding love again, which was really 290 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: really beautiful. Um, and I didn't know this. I didn't 291 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: know widowed was a status on dating apps, and a 292 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: lot of people were describing uh whether or not, like 293 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: feeling guilty for saying single, but they didn't want to 294 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: say widowed because they felt like the people avoid them 295 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: or like come in with all the expectation, there's going 296 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: to be baggage and stuff. So that's a whole added things. 297 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: Once you into the dating world, it's very intricate, those 298 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: titles and dating apps. Oh my gosh, it sounds stress 299 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: me too. Um. And since a healthy long term relationship 300 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: involves the splitting of responsibilities, the surviving partner may have 301 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: to learn how to manage those things that their partner 302 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: to care of. And I will say my mother would 303 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: be one of those that they're very very specific responsibilities 304 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: between my mom and my father. Um. And if one 305 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: of them would die, it would be a lot of 306 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: readjustment for them. Um. And then come the practical things 307 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: like making sure you have a will, putting any property 308 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: under your name if necessary. Holiday has become painful too, 309 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: and ridiculously painful. Household income drops by around after the 310 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: death of a spouse. And if we look specifically at 311 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: elderly women, compared to the rest of the population, they're 312 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: twice as likely to be living at or below the 313 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: poverty level in the US, and poor men are more 314 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: likely to die as compared to men who aren't poor, 315 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: meaning more widows are coming from poor households. Yes, and 316 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: there's also stigma that might be a factor if the 317 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: partner died of suicide or in prison for instance. And um, 318 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: I'll say, since my dad died, I've seen a lot 319 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: of this with my mom, primarily guilt, a lot of 320 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: guilt and almost a PTSD around other people she loves 321 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: dying are getting sick. Uh. Probably every time I talked 322 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: to her that comes up, especially I mean right now 323 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: during a pandemic. She'll like, I could mention in passing 324 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: I had a headache or something, and she's just so 325 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: concerned about it. Um. So I've seen it play out 326 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: with her a lot of this stuff we're talking about, UM. 327 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: And we do have a little bit more for you, 328 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for word from 329 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: our sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So, first 330 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: of all, if this is something any of your listeners 331 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: are going through, we are so so very sorry, UM. 332 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: And we know that it's incredibly painful and lonely and 333 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: probably the last thing you want is advice, and you've 334 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: heard it all before. We're gonna include some of the 335 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: key things people say. But yeah, there's really not a 336 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: set system that's gonna fix everything. Experts recommend allowing yourself 337 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: to grieve in your own time and in your own way, 338 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: don't compare your experience to others, taking things one step 339 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: at a time, not rushing, reaching out to your support system, 340 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 1: things like that, right, And just to add, just another 341 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: podcast that talks about grief talks about the breakdown of 342 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: the grieving process that we know, the anger, all of that, 343 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: the acceptance UM, which could also be more of a 344 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: misconception then actually the actuality and to remember a grief 345 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: and mourning is an individual thing and people do not 346 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: react the same way, so there's no right way to 347 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: the mourning process. And to give yourself and others the 348 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: freedom to deal as they need to in a healthy manner, 349 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: I hope. UM. It's especially hard right now when we're 350 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: having to social distance and things are closed, making it 351 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: hard to adhere to some of the traditional advice like 352 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: joining an exercise class or a group or going to 353 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: support groups UM, which by the way, they do happen virtually, 354 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: so you can find those um or even the on 355 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: face to face therapy that most of people need. Again 356 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: that is available virtually, but that also has a question 357 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: of if it's the lower income, what is available, um 358 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: and how much access do you truly have? Oh yeah, 359 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: I mean also the internet conversation too, because I feel 360 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: like that's getting left out a lot when people are like, well, 361 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: virtually not everyone has access to the internet, right, right, 362 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's just a reminder of first of all, 363 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: this is a really bad circumstance. Secondly, this is an 364 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: awkward time and in really difficult time, and you put 365 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: all those together, there's no right way. Yeah yeah, UM, 366 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: if someone you know is going through this, be there 367 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: for that person. Offer practical ways you can help if 368 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: you can. Uh, you know, don't say let me know 369 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: if you need to need anything, Say I can drop 370 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: off groceries at this time. Is that okay? But do check, 371 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: do check with them. Uh, don't change the subject if 372 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: they talk about grief for our their partner who they lost. 373 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: Don't say things like they're in a better place or 374 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: I know how you feel less you've gone through the 375 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: loss of a partner. Um. Keep checking in things like that. 376 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: Another thing we need more research. Recently, there has been 377 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: a push to do research and to partner loss in 378 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus relationships, particularly when it comes to issues 379 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: like lack of support due to a non disclosed relationship. 380 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: Almost all of the research, as we said, has been 381 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: on cis gendered, heterosexual monogamous couples, which they use a lot, 382 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of people out and more research 383 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: is going into the intersection of race and widowhood. Black 384 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: people are more likely to be widowed compared to white 385 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: people by about ten percentage points um. And since we 386 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: know that the gender wage gap is worse for women 387 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: of color, that manifest for widows of color as well 388 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: in terms of their financial situation after they lose a partner. 389 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: And this also goes for polyamous relationships. The lack of 390 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: research all of that. In one article, a blogger begins 391 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: with the fact that they had begun their polyamous relationship 392 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: in the seventies, which was fairly new to come out 393 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: and embrace, and then they kind of rest into what 394 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: does it now that it's been established and we know 395 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: that it works, what does grief and loss look like? 396 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: Because they are slowly coming onto an older age more 397 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: health complications. I think one of the UM bloggers talked 398 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: about a group who had lost someone to a heart 399 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: attack and and stuff like that, in a stroke and 400 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: just what grieving looked like for them as a community 401 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: which has always been together and has been tightened it 402 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: for them, and in it they specifically talk about loss 403 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: and remembrance and making the statement that they do have 404 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 1: others that can help take on the burden of loss 405 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: unlike that of a monogamous relationship, but with that they 406 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: also feel loss more often are on multiple skills and 407 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of that same conversation we had before. They're not 408 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: able to recognize it, and sometimes they're not being recognized 409 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: as a partner if it's not a primary relationship, and 410 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: it is really interesting to see how grief and loss 411 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: works for them. And we should mention here too that 412 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: the fact there isn't a lot of research on what 413 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: grief looks like within polly relationships UM due the fact 414 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: that it is often not recognized legally and sometimes socially, 415 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: which only adds to the complications of how to grieve 416 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: or what grieving can look like. It becomes tangled with 417 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: the legalities that hetero monogamous relationships typically do not have 418 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: to think about. And then if you add to that, 419 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: it isn't recognized. If it isn't recognized, much like queer relationships, 420 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: widows cannot or feel like they cannot publicly grieve are 421 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: more right. So for marginalized communities like this, there's the 422 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: bigger conversation of uprooting the CIS conservative ideas of relationships 423 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: to allow for the openness to celebrate the relationship and 424 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: to grieve over the loss of it. And again the 425 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: localities that will not allow for the recognition of these relationships. 426 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: So I think one of the biggest things that you 427 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: can't really research until people acknowledge it as being a thing. 428 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: And it needs to be a conversation where our policies 429 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: and and our structure needs to change for them to 430 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: be open and allow and have that research. Yeah, there 431 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: are so many layers to those conversation, and I'm glad 432 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: that we're having it and we're expanding the research with 433 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: long overdue. But thanks so much for the listener that 434 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: sent this in. There are definitely pieces of this that 435 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: we could expound upon if anyone's interested. If you think 436 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: we should do we should look more into a specific 437 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: part of it. Please let us know. You can email 438 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: us at stuff Medium, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. 439 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've 440 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: Never Told You, are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks, 441 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: It's always to our superproducer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks 442 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You the 443 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my 444 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: heart Radio, vis Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 445 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.