WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 209 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 Al Zone Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.320 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:30.920 Welcome to it can Happened here a podcasts about things 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.160 falling apart and how to put them back together again. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.960 I am your host, Nia Wong. So a week ago 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.400 we did some episodes about the election of Zora and 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:47.760 Mom Donnie and a lot of the very funny reactions 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.560 to it, and you know, on Executive Disorder, we've talked 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.800 about what this sort of means for politics. But now 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.520 I want to do a slightly different kind of episode, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:01.320 which is looking at the challenge just that Montdomney is 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.760 going to face, attempting to implement his agenda, attempting to 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.360 stay mayor just taking him very seriously at his word 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.840 in his attempt to make the cost of living lower 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.400 and make people's lives better and there are unfortunately, very 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:23.960 significant challenges to this agenda, and those challenges are a 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:29.160 mix of structural problems and I don't know the president 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.280 of the United States, right. We're going to focus on 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.680 a few of them today, and before we really start this, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.560 I think I want to start this to some extent 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:44.360 with the conclusion. And the conclusion of this episode is 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.080 not to say that these things are impossible, right, and 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:48.920 to not say they can't be done, but it's to 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:54.440 remind people that the way that actual politics works, electing 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.240 one person does not immediately make everything better. 0:01:58.520 --> 0:01:58.720 Right. 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.720 You can't stop or organizing because someone has been elected. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.360 And in fact, if you actually want to see the 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:08.440 things that you you organize to you know, happen by 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.080 electing this person, do you have to organize even harder 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.240 once they are in power and mobilize even more to 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:16.799 allow the things that you fought for to actually happen. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.600 Because there are significant opposition to anything you know, getting 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.480 better for anyone in this country. And that opposition is powerful, 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:30.920 well funded, well organized, and structural. And also, as we 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.000 saw with the election of Aunt Donnie in the first place, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:38.400 it can be defeated. So we're going to start with 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.359 the bond market. Now, many of you may be asking, bio, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:44.840 what what does the bond market have to do with 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:50.000 make buses free? And to do that we need to 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:55.800 talk about funding mechanisms. So most plans in the US 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.720 for sort of social democratic policy for how you implement 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.800 wellfare day policies, how you policies that make people's lives better, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:07.760 tend to start from the federal governments and the national level, right, 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.160 and there are very obvious reasons for this. Unlike the 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.640 federal government, city governments don't issue their own currency, which 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.680 means the modern monetary theory, things that you would normally 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.320 use to fund welfare programs with at a national level 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:26.560 don't work. The federal governments, again, has control of its 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.679 own debt and money supply. City governments don't. That means 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.560 the city governments, if you want to find money to 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.840 do something, you have to find that from somewhere. And 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.560 as wonderful as it would be if you could simply 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.080 do that by just okay, we raise taxes, and the 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.160 taxes go to the policy that we want to implement, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.000 that's not how the system actually works. The way the 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.560 system works if you want to pay for things at 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.840 a city level is the bond market. David Ibacker has 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:02.240 a very good piece about this the Baffler that I 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.520 deeply recommend people read. The main thing that's important here 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.640 for our purposes is that for funding significant portions of 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.360 anything that you want to do as mayor, you are 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.800 legally required to go through the bond markets. And this 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.840 means that the city is forced to beg for money 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.640 from Wall Street investment banks and then also pay those 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.600 same banks exorbitant fees and interest, and a significant amount 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.560 of money has to go to, as Backer points out, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.880 a whole bunch of you know, lawyers and finance people 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:38.719 and consultants and all of these you know, sort of 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:44.680 mafia of finance schools who are standing in between the 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.000 normal mechanism of you have money and you pay for things. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.240 And that's assuming again that you even have the money 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.120 in the first place, which you quite often don't because 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.880 cities are very very often cash strapped. As Backer points out, 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:03.440 using these bond mechan to pay for programs is legally required. Now, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:08.080 Backer is mostly focused on the structural constraints created by 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:13.480 servicing debt, which can consume increasing portions of a city's budget. 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.159 Until you know there's nothing left. This is sort of 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.240 what's happened to Detroit to a large extent. And also 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.480 the bank's direct control over the payment mechanism even when 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.080 the city government brings in tax money. Right, So, even 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.159 if you raise taxes and you bring in money, because 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:31.880 you have to go through the bond market, it means 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.279 that a bunch of that money is going to be 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:39.000 funneled into servicing debt and paying interest on debt. But 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.720 there's also a secondary problem here, which is that in 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.440 very extreme cases, and I'm not saying we are immediately 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.279 facing this, but I want to put this on the 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.680 table as something that if you are attempting to run 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.320 a social democratic program in a city, you do need 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.520 to be significantly worried about the bank's direct control over 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.360 payment Meaganisms means that the banks, you know, the people 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.359 who buy the bonds that you need to use to 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.560 get to fund these things. So let's actually take a 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.279 step back here and explain what a bond is. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:09.680 Right. 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.559 A bond is basically you selling a piece of paper 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.320 that is debt. So you go into the market and 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.160 you sell sell a bank of bond and they give 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:19.839 you a bunch of money, Right, now, and at the 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.920 exploration of the bond, you pay that money back plus interest. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.400 This is how you have to fund things, because that 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.200 is what's legally required, and also because cities need a 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.200 way to get extremely large amounts of money. But this 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.720 also means that cities that you know, banks and investors 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.440 can simply not buy your bonds if they don't like 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.440 what you're trying to do, and at that point very 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.840 little can be done to oppose them. The most dramatic 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.160 version of this problem came to the New York City 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.080 bond crisis in nineteen seventy five, where New York City 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.360 had to sell a bunch of bonds. It was significantly 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.440 in debt, and there's a very famous scene in I 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.360 think It's I think it's a hyperdormalisation. You know, there's 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.440 film of like the city government officials who were sitting 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.280 in this room waiting for the banks, like people, for 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.040 the banks to show up to buy the bonds, and 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:12.720 no one shows up, so suddenly they don't have any money. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.960 And then President Ford at the time tells the city 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.720 to eat shit and die and refuses to buy any 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.840 of New York City's bonds, refuse to give them any money, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.840 and this leaves the city bankrupt. Right, it gets to 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.600 a point where they have fired the teachers, there's no 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.160 one to collect garbage because they literally don't have money 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.120 to pay anyone because no one will buy their bonds. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.400 And eventually this crisis is sort of mitigated. But the 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.400 problem is that, you know, the task force that was 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.760 set up to mitigate this right to like, you know, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.000 get there to be people buying New York City bonds. Again, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.800 those people were able to come in and New York 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.960 City had a functional welfare state, right, had a sort 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.160 of many social democratic welfare state. And in order to 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.800 reopen the governments and have schools and garbage collection again, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:58.720 in order to get that money, the city was required 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.360 to dismantle it. And you know, the financial situation of 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.920 New York is obviously significantly better than it was then, right, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.480 And the odds of having this kind of just full 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:14.880 on macro scale crisis is not as high as it 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.560 was then. But because of the fact that this is 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:23.160 the legally mandated way that you have to do these payments, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:28.520 and because unlike the federal government, there are constraints on 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.960 spending that in some ways function like needing for an 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.280 exchange currency. You know, you can't just issue this money. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.160 You have to get it from somewhere, and because of 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:41.480 someone's usually the banks, it means that you have to 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.760 constantly negotiate with the banks and with capital in order 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.120 to keep the city's lights on. And this is a 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.000 constant threat that they have sort of, you know, hanging 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.079 over the head of anyone who wants to be governor. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.960 And as Backer points out, you can even just tax 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.960 your way out of the problem because payment structures for 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.200 government projects work out of the bond system, so that 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.840 money just goes to debt payments. And you know, one 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.080 of the other things that Backer points out. And obviously 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.720 the situation in Chicago is different than the situation in 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.200 New York. But the Chicago teachers Union did elect a 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.240 mayor who was, you know, their guy, right, The cholot 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.640 teachers Union spent a significant amount of money and resources 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.439 and effort getting their guy elected, and once he came 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.200 into office, he basically ended up doing the same thing 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.280 in their negotiations with the teachers union that the previous 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.080 administrations had done. And the reason that happened, you know, 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.560 and the reason that you started to see cuts to 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.400 school services that we're not supposed to happen, but did anyways, 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.559 was because the bond market stepped in and said this 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.920 is what's necessary in order to do this, and they 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.400 have that kind of power. Now, obviously Chicago was in 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.640 a worse financial situation than New York is. Mom Doominie 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:57.640 is significantly further left than Brandon Johnson is. But these 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.240 are real constraints, and the such a democratic solution to 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.720 this has always been to get money from the federal governments. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.480 But the federal government won't give money out to the 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.599 things that is legally required to give money out to 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.720 you right now, because obviously it is run by one 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.200 Donald Trump, and obviously Trump in and of himself is 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.559 a significant problem to doing this right. There's always a 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.080 chance that Trump will see something like mean about Mom 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.559 Donnie on Fox News and decide to send the National 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.839 Guard to New York or something, and you know, he 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:35.160 will probably continue immigration raids. He can, you know, just 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.280 fuck with people's ability to get Medicaid payments, which is 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.920 a really significant issue. There will continue to be lots 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.240 of creative and terrible things that the federal government can 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.079 and will due to this administration that will have to 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.120 be fought and can be defeated, but will have to 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:55.480 be organized and fought against. But for our purposes right now, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:00.720 the big issue here is that you can't get money 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.280 out of the federal government. So okay, where are you 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.560 getting money out of then? And the answer is the 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.520 state government. Now do you know what else gets money 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.760 out of state governments? Probably not these products and services. 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:31.240 I don't know who knows, who knows? We are back, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:37.120 So okay, let's talk about the state government now again. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.800 This even with the city the size of New York, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.000 there still is always significant negotiations in order to do 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.640 you thinks in the city that require the aid of 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.520 the state level government. And part of the problem here 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:52.720 is that the New York State Democratic Party is significantly 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.360 responsible for the Republican's control of the House, particularly in 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.880 the twenty twenty two cycle. There's a whole long story 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.640 here about how a bunch of a bunch of the 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.360 Democrats wanted to form this sort of moderate caucus thing, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.480 where the sort of independent caucus that would caucus with 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.840 the Republicans in order to give the Republicans the ability 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.080 to stop any sort of liberal or left wing thing 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.000 from happening. In the state governments and handle a whole 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.440 bunch of seas over to the Republicans because of it. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.120 But just you know, setting all of that aside, the 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.800 place that you can get money from would be from 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:30.160 the governor's office. Unfortunately, that significate problem. So here's Hotel's 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.440 response to Mamdami's plan to make buses free. Quote, I 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.079 cannot set forth a plan right now that takes money 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.160 out of a system that relies on fares of the 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.600 buses in the subways. But can we find a path 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.320 to make it more affordable for people who need help? Yes, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.320 of course we can. So Hotel does not want to 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.079 raise taxes. Any proposal that would involve raising taxes probably 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.080 has to run through New York City's City Council, and 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.920 thus through her. I'm going to quote this some spectrum 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:03.080 news about Mundammy's propos to expand universal childcare. Culchel said 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.920 she's also looking at expanding a universal childcare program statewide. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.640 But the total price tag is fifteen billion dollars childcare 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.960 I already committed to, she said. I'm committed to this 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.160 as a mom governor, I get it, but also to 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.080 do it statewide's about fifteen billion dollars the entire amount 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.839 of my reserves. Cultural says she prefers to phase an 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:26.520 expansion first within certain aide groups and geographically underserved communities. 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.360 So okay, what is happening here in a macro sense 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.040 is that Cultural is trying to slow roll both of 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.400 these things. She is outright opposed to making buses free. 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.800 She wants to do weird means testing stuff to it 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.760 that will make it very difficult to do and extremely 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.400 annoying bureaucratic layer meant to deny people services that you 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.839 have to do instead of just having them be free. 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.640 The childcare thing she probably does want to do, but again, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.840 because she is not a democratic socialist, because she is 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.360 a regular Democrat, she wants to do it slowly, banded 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.480 through a whole bunch of phases and taking a whole 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:04.160 bunch of time. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.240 And this is a. 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:11.760 Pretty significant problem because you know, at every step of this, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.800 not only are you going to have to be negotiating 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:15.480 with the banking system, you're going to have to be 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:20.360 negotiating with the statewide Democratic Party. And the statewide Democratic 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:25.200 Party is fairly conservative. Hotel is not as conservative, and 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.760 she can be sort of dragged kicking and screaming into 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.040 good policies like what happened with congestion pricing. And if 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.600 something works and is really popular after you do it, 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.600 she will sign on to it. But it's a significant 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:39.680 hurdle that you. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:40.760 Have to deal with. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.280 I want to move from this into a kind of 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:49.760 related problem that's a more structural constraint on Ondami's time 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.600 in office, which is that he is now in charge 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.040 of running a capitalist economy. When you take a position 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.720 in a capitalist government, it is now your job to 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.960 make the economy run, and that means maintaining economic growth. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.640 But okay, what does economic growth actually mean in a 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.840 capitalist economy. It means that corporations make more money than 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.720 they did the year before. And this is a structural 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.000 problem for all of us because we all have interests 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.400 that are diametrically opposed to corporations making more money every 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:25.240 year because their profit comes directly from our exploitation. Right, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.920 we have fundamentally opposed interests from the corporations and the 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.000 capitalists and the billionaires. But in order for there to 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.680 be capitalist economic growth, those people have to keep making 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:34.680 more money every year. 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:40.560 And obviously, you can make arguments about how redistribution enhances 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.360 economic growth by creating a larger consumer base, and that's 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.520 obviously true. We're in an extremely deformed economy right now. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.640 Where as I keep saying on this show, fifty percent 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.880 of all consumer spending is happening from five percent of 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.440 the population, which is just a completely unsustainable way to 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.720 run an economy and is also absolutely miserab for every 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:05.160 single other person who's in that bottom ninety five percent. 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.760 And you know, there are things that you can do 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.920 to some extent, right but at some point you are 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.760 going to have to choose between workers and capital. And 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.440 if you're the mayor of New York City, your job 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.200 is to make capital more money. And this is a 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.240 structural constraint that every social democratic government has faced. And 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.040 it's worth noting that we are not in a world 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:35.440 that is surrounded by social democratic governments. And part of 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.000 the reason why, again is that they need the economy 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:42.400 to keep growing and that they're reliant on finance institutions 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.000 to make money. And the most grim versions of this 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.800 tend to happen at a sort of national scale. But 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.680 if you look at morally in Jamaica in the seventies, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.520 where you have a democratic socialist who gets elected and 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.400 is running Jamaica and then has to implement austerity because 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:02.040 the country runs out of money and the IMF comes in. Right, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:08.800 these things can get really bleak now they don't have to, 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.600 right Like, sufficiently well organized populations can force the hand 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.439 of capital to do things that they don't want to do. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.840 Significantly well organized populations can you start trying to fundamentally 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:26.239 redistribute economic power. But it's difficult, and the difficulty is 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:31.520 magnified by the third really massive constraint, and that constraint 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.159 is the police. One of the other big structural problems 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:36.919 that comes with the running a state is that it 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.720 relies on armed men to enforce the laws, and those men, 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.680 especially in the United States, are at best one step 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.680 removed from straight up neo Nazis. A lot of them 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.840 straight up are neo Nazis. The cops are the most 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.680 consistently right wing group in the entire country. They are 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.479 a bunch of racist shitheads who exist to perpetuate right 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.680 supremacy and protect capital, and they're also again fundamental organizational 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:07.000 unit of the state. Right without the violence of the police, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.040 laws are just suggestions, and if you're going to run 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.560 a capitalist government, if you're going to run one in 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.520 the US, you have to deal with the fact that 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.240 your power depends on the loyalty of a bunch of Nazis, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:24.679 and these people will riot if you attempt to do 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.479 oversight of them. They very famously did this in nineteen 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.840 ninety two. They had this whole giant riot, right, They 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.320 had the thing that was supposed to be a protest 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.119 rally where they all went on strike, and then the 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.240 cops who were supposed to be policing the protest obviously 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.360 didn't do anything because again there are also cops. And 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.280 in nineteen ninety two, I did this for a really 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.960 really really minor oversight tempted oversight, right, And obviously they 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.919 actually didn't win that direct fight, but they were able 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.360 to cause enough of a political ship storm that they 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.840 were able to force the last sort of like vaguely 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.240 social democratic mayor out of power and install like Rudy Giuliani, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:10.600 who is a weird face, melty dipshit right, who's an 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.239 incredible tough on crime right winger. And obviously Mamdani has 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.080 been trying to kind of trying to do his best 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.280 to negotiate with the police and not to overtly threaten them, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.920 but that kind of doesn't matter because they just hate him, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.280 like they think that a Muslim socialist is just inherently 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.879 an illegitimate person, and they think that anyone who is 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.280 even vaguely liberal is someone who is their enemy and 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.600 who is their target. And we have seen them take 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.439 actions to just directly threaten mayors fairly recently. Right in 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.359 twenty twenty, they kidnapped Bill de Blasio's daughter at a 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.399 protest and then sort of like paraded her mugshot around 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.679 and posted it everywhere and did this whole big show 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.919 of how they were holding her. To say it was 0:19:52.960 --> 0:20:00.879 a thinly veiled threat is a dramatic understatement of how incredibly, 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:08.560 incredibly blatant this threat was. Right, they kidnapped the mayor's daughter, Drea, 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:10.640 in a protest movement, and that was Bill de Blasio, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.320 who was not some kind of like wild anti police 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:17.960 radical right, and especially now as sort of fascism is 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.000 on the march, and with the backing of the US 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:28.320 federal government, right, the police form a very significant threat 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:32.120 to Mandami's ability to do anything. Both on a sort 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.959 of political level, they are going to be constantly you know, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.800 putting out giant press releases about how Mamdami's like turn 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.159 the city into unliverable hellhole and how they can't do 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.520 their jobs, ceda, et cetera. And also just in terms 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.600 of just directly threatening him and trying to influence his policy, 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.000 they're going to be a real problem, and his ability 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.159 to prevent them from, for example, smashing in the skulls 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.320 of pro Palesime protesters, even if he wants to, was 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.880 going to be very limited because the police have become 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:05.480 a kind of semi autonomous fascist force in this country. 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.200 They have always been a ticking time bomb on statius democracy, 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.240 and that clock is closing in on zero in this 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.600 in this sort of moment of assented fascism. Now again, 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.000 I want to close this by saying, these are not 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.760 all the challenges that he's going to face, but Comma, 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.080 none of this also means that that the things that 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.320 he wants to do to make people's lives better are impossible. 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.040 Every single one of these problems are problems that you 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.800 can defeat by organizing. Right, you can put enough pressure 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.719 on capital to prevent them from doing a kind of 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.000 like capital striker or a bond struck Right, to force them 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.480 they continue to fund things. Right, with enough public pressure, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.479 you can make a whole lot of things happen. You 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.760 can make the police, you know, at the very least 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.760 be acting on a kind of defensive front to where 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.080 they're not, you know, rioting and try to run city politics, 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:05.119 but are kind of forced by mass popular and mobilization 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:10.560 and pressure to at the very least not be openly 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.560 attacking the mayor. You can put massive political pressure on 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.359 Kathy Cultel to you know, do things that are good, 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.080 which which is how we got how New York got 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.600 congestion pricing in the first place. Right like that, that 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.639 was a result of a masses like organizational campaign that 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.680 went extremely well, and hushov like tried to sabotage it 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.879 because she thought it would be unpopular, and eventually it 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.360 got implemented and it's really popular now and now she's 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.280 really in favor of it. So these people can be 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.560 pushed around, right, They are not invincible, Their victory is 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.960 not inevitable. They can be defeated and they can be 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.679 forced to accept that, Oh wait, hold on, the extremely 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:50.119 sensible policies that we want that make our lives better 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.880 are good, and that requires mobilization. But you know that's 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.560 not impossible. We know how to organize. We've been doing 0:22:57.600 --> 0:22:59.920 it for ages, and it was you know, what had 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.200 happen to make all of this possible in the first place. 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.040 And so instead of demobilizing now and going, oh, our 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.240 jobs are done. No no, no, no, no, our job our jobs 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.159 have just begun. But you know, the better organized we 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:12.639 are and the more we're able to push this and 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:14.240 the more we're able to push all of these people, 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:18.879 the better our lives will get. And this election to 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.440 begin with, is a reminder that another world is possible 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:23.160 and it can be. 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:23.960 Better than this one. 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:25.919 We just have to build it together. 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.160 This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, joined 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.639 by Robert Evans. Last week, I released an episode on 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.080 the ascent of white nationalist live streamer Nick Fuentes and 0:23:54.200 --> 0:24:00.199 his Graper fans among particularly young gen Z Republicans. The 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:04.359 episode also tracked the conservative infighting at Heritage Foundation and 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:08.320 Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire in the aftermath of Tucker Carlson's 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:13.560 friendly sit down interview with Nick Fuenttes. In the episode, 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.440 I mentioned that I had an extra segment covering the 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.160 final section of the interview. Now, most coverage of this interview, 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.640 including my episode last week, focused on like the first 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:30.520 two thirds, which ranged from like Nick Fuentes's political background, 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:34.119 early beef with Ben Shapiro and his like Nazisque anti 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:39.000 Semitic theories of a quote unquote organized world jewelry corrupting America, 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:43.159 which he now lightly couches in anti Israel framing to 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:47.479 profit off of the genocide in Palestine. But the last 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:51.400 third of the interview changes course to discuss the mechanisms 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:57.560 of quote unquote reality distortion which are ruining young men, drugs, alcohol, 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:04.359 the Internet, and most importantly, pornography. After receiving a universal 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.800 response demanding the release of the porn cut, I have 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.520 sat down with Robert here to finally finally air what 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:15.680 no other news platform is brave enough, brave enough to cover? 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.000 Yeah, well, no, what new other news platform can legally 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:22.359 cover because they have a duty to their employees to 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:23.960 not make them research this stuff. 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:26.520 Yeah, or like an actual healthy HR department. 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:28.760 Yeah, we have not. We have not finished our classes 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.919 on what we're not allowed to make people do. So 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.639 said now, to be fair, Garrison couldn't be stopped from 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:39.480 researching this. There was no there was no way of 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:40.960 stopping you from doing this. 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:42.320 I have a sick drive. 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:45.720 You would have started working for someone else, so we 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:46.960 didn't let you do this. 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:49.560 No, if Sophie, if Sophie told me I wasn't allowed 0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:51.760 to cover this, I would have quit immediately. 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:56.280 Yeah, you'd started working for Wired or someone. 0:25:57.119 --> 0:25:59.560 So now I am very pleased to present to you 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:03.800 probably thirty thirty minutes of Nick Fuentt as explaining to 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:10.280 a performatively confused Tucker Carlson the concept of pornography. And 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:13.000 I guess if we're gonna view you know, Fuenttes and 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.399 the Gropers as like a serious, legitimate threat that's able 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:20.200 to sway national political discourse, I think it's also important 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:24.760 to cover his weird sexual politics, just as explaining the 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.560 weird sexual practices of like, you know, the Proud Boys 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.679 is important for understanding their whole deal as like a 0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:34.720 neo fascist streak gang. The kind of closeted gay in 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:39.879 cel women issues of the Gropers is actually really important, 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:45.080 especially for Nick, and let's discuss that. But thankfully we 0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:48.800 get to start off with the majority majority of this section, 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.399 which is which is on pornography let's start one of 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:54.120 the first clips. 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:59.879 What is porn exactly? Like, describe how available is porn? 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:00.760 What is it? 0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:07.560 My God? 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:10.480 Because he does ask that like a man who's legitimately 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:12.720 never heard of pornography, he does. 0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:16.439 He later says like, obviously he is familiar with the 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:22.480 rough concept of port uh huh, but maybe not, but 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.200 maybe not this sort of Internet pored obsession, to which 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.920 Nick refers, let's let's skip ahead about a minute where 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:34.680 Nick kind of closes on his explanation of Internet porn specifically. 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.520 So, something that has almost never talked about is that 0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:41.960 this is a generation that's totally sexually dysfunctional. I think 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:45.480 because of pornography, and some people are able to cope 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:48.359 with it. Some people don't have a problem, but I 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:51.480 think a lot of people, and maybe even a small minority, 0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.119 have a serious problem with that. 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.560 And the problem people sexually dysfunctional. 0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:02.240 I think that it's impossible for a real woman to 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:06.760 compete with the availability and the novelty of pornography. 0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:10.760 So that is Nick's kind of ending argument at the 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.119 tail end of his definition of porn and how porn 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.879 is affecting specifically American men. A little bit of his 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:21.080 in cel status is obviously seeping through there. More of 0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:25.919 it will become increasingly evident throughout throughout this interview. But 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:29.920 this idea of sexual dysfunction, how porn is ruining men's 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.639 ability to get into relationships, is ruining the ability to 0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:38.160 get into marriages, lasting marriages. And he frames this kind 0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:40.840 of slightly as the fault of men, but also really 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:43.840 as the fault of women. Women aren't able to compete 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:49.400 with how much porn there is, the different categories of porn. 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:52.080 How can one woman please a man when a man 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:54.920 can go on to the Internet and look up, you know, 0:28:55.640 --> 0:29:01.320 fifty different niche fetishes that not one woman could. Yeah, 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:04.080 and that's that's part of his argument at this point. 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.680 Yeah, and that's always like been the Okay, so you've 0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:10.840 just you've never had a relationship. 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:14.320 Which Nick is open about at least Nick claims that, right. Yeah, 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:17.800 It's unclear how true a lot of Nick's claims are 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:21.800 about his like in cell vall cell in voluntary celibate 0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:24.880 yea type deal, but no Nick Nick does claim that, 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:29.600 and the sort of pushback Nick will receive later on 0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:32.400 in the interview on some of these aspects is actually 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:35.440 way stronger than any of the world jewelry, anti Semitic 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:38.360 stuff from earlier in the interview, which Carlson was vague 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:41.960 actually kind of like trying to shape Nick quent as 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:44.720 his rhetoric to make him like appeal to a bigger audience, 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:46.720 but did not really push back on to the same 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:50.760 extent he does on a Nick's like relationship with women. 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:56.640 But the sexual dysfunction aspect, I think is the is 0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:59.360 the ending argument for Nick here in terms of what 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:04.120 actually makes porn bad. He extrapolates on this point in 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.000 this next section which I'll play Now. 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:11.680 Porn is you could have one hundred different women in 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:18.600 one sitting doing anything that whatever niche or idiosyncratic thing 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:22.560 a person might be into, it's there. And so I 0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:26.000 think that novelty, combined with that availability, it makes it 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:29.400 so that you know, when you think about courting a woman, 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:34.320 juice isn't worth the squeeze. And so there's like also 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:37.120 a problem of like a rectile dysfunction, people that can't 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:40.680 enjoy regular sex because it does not compare to the 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:46.120 intensity the novelty and the availability of porn. It's hyper stimulation, 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:50.200 and so I think that's sabotaging a lot of normal 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:51.400 sexual relationships. 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:54.360 It seems like it's making a lot of people gay too. Yeah, 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:56.880 and trance. You think that's true one hundred percent? 0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:57.800 What is that? 0:30:59.360 --> 0:30:59.960 Oh my god? 0:31:00.960 --> 0:31:05.720 What is that? I don't even know where to start there. 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:08.560 I mean, like it's it's what these people have always believed, 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:12.520 right that, Like, that's the There's got to be an explanation. 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:14.200 Some kind of cause why people like. 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:16.920 Things that that they're not allowed to admit to liking 0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:21.560 in public. And it's got to be the fault of pornography, right, 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:23.320 or libraries whatever. 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:29.240 Every time Tucker interjects the beauty of his of his 0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:34.280 little like befunneled interjections, what is that? Is that real? 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:35.000 Is that true? 0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:35.400 Huh? 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:40.480 It's it's fantastic, But yeah, no, I mean Nick kind 0:31:40.480 --> 0:31:47.120 of blames the rise in homosexuality and transsexuality on this 0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:52.520 like novelty of pornography and this sexual desensitization like once 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:54.840 regular poor and it doesn't do it for people. They 0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:57.800 get pushed to more and more extreme categories, of which 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:03.000 transport is somehow particularly effective at like influencing and uh, 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:05.480 you know, manipulating human behavior. Right, This is like the 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:10.920 sissy hypno theory that porn can like make somebody trans Yeah, 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:15.800 very goofy stuff, specifically for Nick, considering his curious catboy 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:21.800 background and his alleged leak viewership of trans porn, which 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:24.720 we might we might discuss later. I want to play it, 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.440 play another clip kind of on this note, a shorter one. 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.680 I think that if you are somebody that uses pornography 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:32.880 multiple times per day, which many people do. 0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:37.000 Actually, oh, absolutely, what's a lot of jerking off. That's 0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:41.160 a huge problem. Yeah, that's a lot of cherking off. 0:32:42.600 --> 0:32:47.280 Former Fox News anchor Tucker car Off. Yeah, that's a 0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:49.320 lot of jerk it off. I so badly. I just 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.200 wanted to cut some of these clips out of like 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:55.360 out of contact, just put them in my other episode. 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:58.120 Tucker only comes once a year, and he can only 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:01.360 come by wrapping his dick in side of two frozen 0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:04.320 Swanson's meals. He's got to kind of use like you 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:06.640 know how it's got like there's little divots on the 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.600 back end. He's got to use that to cushion his penis. 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:10.880 It's the only way he can come. 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.760 It's a fairly edipal thing with his you know, family business. 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:18.160 This this sort of like psychosexual drive. Wow, the Swans 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:22.840 and of it all. Of course, that makes sense for Yeah, 0:33:23.080 --> 0:33:26.120 that makes sense for Tucker h But no, and Dick 0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.240 says that porn like operates kind of like drug tolerance levels, 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.880 which like, over time, after repetitive use, in order to 0:33:33.880 --> 0:33:37.360 get high, the user must seek out stronger drugs or 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:42.120 dangerously intense doses, of which he views transport. Is this 0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:44.040 like dangerous dose? Yeah? 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.240 Yeah, because I do love like the the through line 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:49.960 with these people that like both this is like a 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:55.280 sickening degeneracy and also is so appealing that people absolutely 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:58.320 cannot help themselves to it, like it affects them like heroin. 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:01.200 It's it's it's so inherently attractive. 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:04.400 I mean some of that might be their actual proclivities 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.680 kind of yes, I think, kind of peeking out from 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:09.480 under the surface there. Yeah, all of these guys love 0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:12.160 watching Transport, all of these like anti trans people, whether 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:16.200 it's Alex Jones or like Nick Fuentes, Like obviously they 0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:18.880 have they have an interest in that, and that's what 0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:20.360 kind of drives them of their obsession. 0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:23.680 Yeah, which is it's just weird, Like I don't know 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:28.000 anyone who talks about any pornography that way, Like you know, 0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:31.040 every everyone's got whatever it is they're into, like something 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:34.400 that they'll be particularly interested in, but no one describes 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:36.120 as like it's just this kind of thing. No one 0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:37.640 can resist it obviously, this. 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:42.560 Sort of like powerful obsessive nature in which these types 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.279 of right wing freaks like refer to it as they. 0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:47.680 Like actual perverts will say stuff like no, no, no, 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:49.920 I've been shoving things inside my p hole for the 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:51.960 last twenty seven years, and now I can get up 0:34:51.960 --> 0:34:53.680 to something the width of a mag light and I 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.360 know that's crazy, Like, I know no one else does that. 0:34:56.360 --> 0:35:02.320 That's just a me fing. Oh, someone needs to explain 0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:05.280 sounding to Tucker Carlson is what I'm what I'm saying, 0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:07.479 like I if I if he interviews me, I'm gonna 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:10.680 walk him through sounding. I'm gonna use together a PowerPoint 0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:11.600 with photos. 0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:15.120 He's obviously he's obviously uh open and open to this 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:20.319 line of discussion. Are we allowed to have ads on 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:21.040 this episode? 0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:30.200 Yeah, probably not, but let's throw to him anyway. 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:38.080 All right, we are we are back. Nick Fuentes is 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:43.600 gonna continue continue to describe pornography towards a slightly confused 0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:47.480 Tucker Carlson. Now now Nick is able to really speak 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.920 from a sense of authority as someone who claims to 0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:52.600 have never had sex, He's able to really speak with 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:55.759 authority on this topic, which I will, I will, I'll 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:56.800 play this next clip. 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:00.839 And there's something too about what a when you look 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:03.759 at it? When you because people don't realize that it 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:08.200 is a fundamentally different experience. People don't realize being involved 0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:13.279 in intercourse versus watching other people have intercourse. 0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:16.239 And I think that actually does something to you. Tell me, 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:16.799 what do you mean? 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:22.560 Sorry, I'm just stop there for a sec. People don't 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:27.400 realize this amazing observation from alleged virsion in cell Nick Fuentes. 0:36:27.920 --> 0:36:32.080 He's trying to make this point about like body depersonalization 0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:35.799 or like disassociation when watching ports like this, like out 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:40.280 of body experience because you start associating yourself with people 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:42.839 on screen. That's eventually what he starts talking about, right, 0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:45.440 And but he couches this in saying that, like, people 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:47.480 don't realize that this is what this is, you know, 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.479 different from actual sex, which is really funny because Nick 0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:53.120 is proudly proclaims that he's never had sex before, so 0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:55.760 he is in no position to argue this point. 0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:58.000 No, Yeah, that's the other thing. How would you know 0:36:58.160 --> 0:37:00.239 that it's inherently better than sex. 0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:03.560 Like because he's never had I think that he has 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:06.080 to assume that because that's the only information he has. 0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:08.480 But I love I love his his framing of this 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:10.759 is like new novel information that no one else has 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:14.040 access to, that no one realizes that watching port is 0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:18.480 different from having sex. Yeah, Tucker's response is just phenomenal 0:37:18.480 --> 0:37:21.600 at the end of this, because Tucker's like trying trying 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:24.360 to coax more and more shit out of him. It's 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.640 really the only time where he's kind of being a 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:30.480 sly interviewer is at this ending porn section. It's not 0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:33.160 the it's not the are you a Fed? Section, it's 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:36.120 not the Daily Wires stuff, it's not the anti Semitism stuff. 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:42.040 It's it's specifically the porn section. But to explain this 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:46.040 like out of body theory that Nick that Nick has here, 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:52.640 unfortunately Nick gets into trying to explain the Blanchardian theory 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:57.880 of trend sexuality towards towards Tucker Carlson, of which I 0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:01.040 will only play a certain segment of because we don't 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:02.960 need to hear that whole thing. But there is a 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:05.120 section of this next clip that which we'll get into 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:07.279 that as well as take you on kind of a 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:12.000 beautiful journey showcasing Tucker's objection to pornography. 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.520 I think that you know, for example, I think Steve 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:19.160 Sailor has written about this that there's multiple kinds of transsexuals, 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:22.240 and he says a one kind of transsexual is somebody 0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:24.920 that likes the idea of seeing themselves as a woman's 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:28.080 auto ginophilia. Yes, And I think that you know, one 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.560 of the theories for that is you you watch a 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:33.440 man having sex with a woman that isn't you so much, 0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:36.560 you kind of achieve an identity with the woman in 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.960 like a worstick way. You almost identify with the woman. 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:44.440 And so there's weird things that happen when you're watching 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:49.000 that and having such strong emotional and sexual experiences. 0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:49.759 Interesting. 0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:53.160 Nick, that's interesting, Nick, I've always been I've sensed for 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.080 a long time having had a lot of young male 0:38:55.080 --> 0:38:59.480 employees mentioned porn as a problem. I mean, the big 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:04.960 porn companies give visibility to foreign intel services on the back, 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:08.799 so that means people know what you're looking at. There's 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:10.920 likely video and audio of you watching. 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:15.640 Okay, all right, there's so much I love that Tucker's made. 0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:18.799 Objection to photography isn't the stuff that Nick's talking about 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.080 at all, but the idea that it poses a security 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:23.200 risk because of foreign intel services. 0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:27.480 Yeah, that they're they're recording everyone masturbating. 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:31.480 To blackmail every single person on the planet. And he 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:34.120 couches us and saying that he's quote not a huge 0:39:34.120 --> 0:39:39.480 expert on the topic. Yeah, which is really good. But 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:42.480 to go back a little bit, the level of projection 0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:46.240 Nick is doing here with this identifying as a woman 0:39:46.520 --> 0:39:51.000 in the in the poor thing is simply phenomenal. I mean, 0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:54.319 especially considering the whole you know, catboys scandal, which I 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:57.080 covered on the show like years ago as when I 0:39:57.120 --> 0:39:59.920 was like a baby, as well as Nick's like alleged 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:02.440 trans porn league, which I guess I'll explain to here briefly. 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:09.480 This was in twenty twenty two. Nick allegedly was operating 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:12.200 a socc puppet Twitter account when he was banned on Twitter. 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.880 This this account shared a clip scrolling through Nick Fuentes 0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:19.880 like analytics, like video analytics, like search of analytics, showing 0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:24.360 his popularity and when scrolling through these various tabs, A 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:26.960 little section of a tab that that didn't did not 0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:28.840 get into full view, but you get you saw the 0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:31.439 bottom of it, which looked a lot like a very 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:36.319 specific trans femboy porn video on porn hub. People found 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:39.320 the video, and after they found the video, you know this, 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:41.959 This this post with these analytics was like taken down 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:46.080 and this account was believed to be operated by Nick Fuentez. 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:48.600 Now Nick claims that he obviously was not behind this account, 0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:51.040 that this was some like a groper fan who was 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:53.400 trying to set him up for scandal by operating an 0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:56.640 account that appeared to be Nick's account on Twitter but 0:40:56.760 --> 0:41:00.960 actually wasn't. I Robert, I will show you a little 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:04.239 bit of this analytics video. We don't need to see 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:10.520 the whole thing, but it's like this, okay, so various 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:15.440 various tabs. Look look at all these tabs. This various Like. 0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:18.439 When does Jake Lloyd explore. 0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:22.880 What comparing his popularity towards other other like commentators. 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:26.120 He was comparing his popularity to fucking Jake Lloyd from 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:28.840 the Face and Menace from the Phantom Menace, So you 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:30.600 should be beating him, Nick. 0:41:31.480 --> 0:41:35.200 But like web traffic analytics Joe Ken to Google trends 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:39.560 and then let's see if I can find it right 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.520 right here at the top. Yeah, right here at the top, 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:47.680 was scrolling through the tabs on the iPhone Safari is 0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:51.879 a little a little peorn tab right Yeah. So this 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:53.719 this turned into a little, a little mini thing with 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:57.160 people thinking that they secretly stumbled across the Nick's porn 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.720 porn watching habits, of which it would be no surprise, yeah, 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:04.080 that he'd be watching transfendboy porn, especially again considering that 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:08.360 he operated a catboy discord channel on his server. But 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.719 he has staunchly denied this, as you know, as a 0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:16.919 based Catholic in cell obviously. So, both Tucker and Nick 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:20.520 believe that porn is a big factor affecting the decline 0:42:20.560 --> 0:42:24.160 of actual sex and marriage among gen z, and it's 0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:27.359 not just a male problem. Nick argues that it has 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:32.000 become a quote unquote so destigmatized for women to participate 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:36.279 in porn as well, of which she's mostly referring to 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:41.560 only fans. Here's a clip of them discussing only fans. 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:46.839 And it is completely casual, you know, because you could 0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:49.800 say that maybe ten years ago, even at the heyday 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:52.360 of Internet porn. To be in porn, you got to 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:54.960 be a porn star. Like that's your life and that's 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.200 your career, and that's who you are. And it's very shameful. 0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:01.080 With only fans, It's like it's like having a TikTok. 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:05.800 It's like, here's my link tree, here's my Instagram account, 0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:07.920 here's my Facebook account, here's my YouTube, and here's my 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:08.600 only fans. 0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:11.440 Why would any of this be legal? 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:17.520 I think that, Well, there's, like you indicated, maybe there's 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:22.280 an intelligence benefit to that. Yeah, maybe there's a political 0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:24.920 benefit to that. I think that why wouldn't you arrest 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:26.920 the people who run something like that? They should be 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:29.400 if you had a Christian government, or how about the 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:31.880 government and cares about its people? I mean, is Iran 0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:34.680 a bigger threat or his only fans? Iron's not turning 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:37.040 my daughters to prostitution that I'm aware of? 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:42.560 Right, Oh my god? Is Iron a bigger threat? Or 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:43.640 is only fans? 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.520 Yes? Yes, that's the real geopolitical question. 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:50.840 The wisest minds. No, what a what a beautiful mind 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:53.479 that is? Yeah, yeah, like even be able to think 0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:55.920 of the sentence. Is a run a bigger threat than 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:56.720 only fans? 0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:57.160 Yeah? 0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:01.240 Like I could never even get myself to a point 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:04.520 where I conjured that thought in my own head. 0:44:04.600 --> 0:44:09.560 We have to ban pornography because it's the iran of masturbation. 0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:13.920 It's frankly beautiful in order to get their minds so 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:17.440 so degraded to even have this thought. It's so alien. 0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:22.520 Man Later, Tucker pushes kind of on this point about 0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:26.320 the need to arrest people who run only fans, while 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:29.040 Nick kind of quietly remarks that it's really the women 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:32.360 or the quote unquote body assets who should be arrested. 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:35.279 But Tucker is pretty firm on no, it's really like 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:38.160 the facilitators, people hosting the website or are enabling this. 0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:40.879 But you know, Nick and Nick would be totally fine 0:44:40.920 --> 0:44:46.000 if women on the platform also get arrested. Man Ah. Again, 0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:50.799 the insistence that the a primary objection or like a 0:44:50.880 --> 0:44:54.759 causal a causal aspect of why is this allowed it's 0:44:54.760 --> 0:45:00.880 for like intelligence gathering services, is simply beautiful. Do you 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:02.280 know what else is beautiful? 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:05.400 Robert? The sponsors of this podcast. 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:07.239 They are for putting up with this. 0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:19.279 Yeah, all right, we're back. 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:23.799 Before this final segment, we will we will transcend the 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:27.239 discussion of porn and just talk more about some of 0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:32.560 Nick's opinions on on like women, oh good, and other 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:37.840 factors beyond porn for why you know, marriage isn't happening? 0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:40.799 Why why aren't people getting married as much anymore? You know, 0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:43.960 of which both Tucker and Nick think porn is a factor. 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:49.560 But there's other factors contributing to this crisis, which Nick 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:53.160 and Tucker will will elucidate. Let's uh, let's hear him out. 0:45:54.040 --> 0:45:56.439 So what are the other factors that prevent I'm sorry 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.239 I called you gay, by the way, but I'm always sure. 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.080 I think I'm just too old or something. I'm like, what, 0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:03.680 why is anyone married? You tell me why isn't Why 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:08.000 an't people married? Well, I mean, honestly, it's the women, 0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:09.680 all right. 0:46:10.080 --> 0:46:15.000 Oh okay, we solve that problem. Uh yeah, that's it. 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:16.399 I think that does it for us, that it could 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:19.720 happen here. They got to the bottom of that pretty quickly. Sorry, 0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:23.440 I called you gay, by the way. So no. Now 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:26.600 it's time for the wise in selsationic fuintest to bestow 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:30.680 his wisdom pertaining to relationships and marriage, and in his eyes, 0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:34.000 the main problem seems to be that not just women, 0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:39.680 but specifically that women are too liberal. Yeah, really breaking 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:40.480 new ground there. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:44.360 Yeah, sure, that's that's it. That's the problem because then 0:46:44.400 --> 0:46:46.280 they don't like all of the Nick flintest fans. 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:51.600 The men are extremely conservative increasingly the women are extremely liberal. 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:53.440 What are they liberal on? What issues? 0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:53.560 Like? 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:54.840 What does that mean liberal? 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:55.120 Oh? 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:56.120 On on out? 0:46:56.160 --> 0:47:00.319 They're very feminist, like actually extremely femine. 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:02.799 I don't believe that, do they? I think they do 0:47:03.040 --> 0:47:04.120 really absolutely. 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:07.840 I don't believe that gender roles are a construct, that 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.080 none of this is inborn, Like you'd have to be 0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:10.920 an idiot to think that. 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:12.440 They like the idea of it. 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:16.960 Tucker's delivery. I want to study it more. 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:19.640 I feel like they sketched some of this out before 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:21.800 they did this, because I feel like they're both leading 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:24.680 each other to get out statements that they want to say. 0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:29.000 No, yeah, it's so crafted here, like they're back and forth. 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:33.719 Exchange is so is so crafted. Every every inflection they have, 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:36.719 they're like giving each other these key points to the 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:37.560 extrap laid on. 0:47:38.080 --> 0:47:41.359 Yeah, there's the stuff that's willful, like the claims that well, 0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:45.080 young men are conservative, which is based on like a 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:49.200 shift towards Trump that's partly reversed over the last year 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.440 or so, but that was not the vast majority of 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:56.120 gen Z people, right, Like it's it's yeah, young people 0:47:56.120 --> 0:47:59.320 are willing to like try out different things and swing 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:02.200 back and forth. But like, it's not, it's not the 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:05.439 way he's framing it, right, because that's that's the most 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.759 convenient narrative for the right, that like all of the 0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:10.160 young men are pulling towards the right, and so the 0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:13.840 problem is that women are more progressive, right, Yeah. 0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:16.839 Therefore it has to be liberal women. Yeah, right, No, 0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.480 it's it's a very it's a very convenient excuse to 0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.920 explain actually a complex set of economic problems which are 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:26.239 preventing people from feeling comfortable enough to actually start a 0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:29.879 family and you know, safe enough economically speaking. Nick goes 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:33.920 on to complain about, you know, women lying about wanting equality, 0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:36.759 wanting to work, when really all they want is a 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:40.960 quote unquote tough chad quote. The whole political system is 0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:44.680 based around women never being accountable for any of their 0:48:44.800 --> 0:48:50.320 choices unquote. This is namely abortion and no false divorce, 0:48:50.480 --> 0:48:52.680 which Nick spends a while talking about how that is 0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:56.319 but a significant contributing factor towards ruining this country. How 0:48:56.360 --> 0:48:58.880 women can enter marriages and leave for whatever reason they want, 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:01.839 taking half of them money, taking half the stuff, etc. Etc. 0:49:02.800 --> 0:49:07.400 There's another factor that Nick claims is contributing to this problem. 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:09.520 They have a. 0:49:09.680 --> 0:49:12.880 Very high estimation of themselves. I think people call it 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:18.920 hope flation. Their yes, their sense of their own looks 0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:21.440 and sexual value is very inflated. 0:49:21.960 --> 0:49:24.360 I just had to put the hope flation clip in there. 0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:27.799 The hope flation, Yes, Tucker Carlson saying, hope flation. It's 0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:28.840 truly a moment for us. 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:29.040 All. 0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:32.400 Yeah. Again, I really want to just displice some of 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:36.920 these soundbits into my other episode at random points. Now, again, 0:49:37.160 --> 0:49:39.640 Tucker actually pushes back in some of like the in 0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:42.959 between sections here, and I'll play some of that pushback later, 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:45.960 but you know, way more than the rest of the interview. 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.920 So specifically, here Tucker is actually pushing back on Nick's 0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:53.319 kind of resigned blame directed towards women and the quote 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:57.520 unquote legal incentive structures that he says are contributing to this. 0:49:58.000 --> 0:50:00.839 And Tucker responds by saying, even if some of these 0:50:00.880 --> 0:50:06.080 complaints are true, as believers in the natural patriarchy, isn't 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.640 it men's role to take responsibility lead by example and 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:12.759 to fix this behavior in women through marriage. 0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:15.239 But I would say that because I hear this all 0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:17.080 the time. People say, well, the men need to step 0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:20.120 up and be better and lead the women Easier said 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:20.960 than done. 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:22.560 You know, I agree with that. 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:25.480 They're at war with the system, and not even just 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:27.160 the system, but also society. 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.080 So this is this is the full like joker pilled 0:50:30.120 --> 0:50:33.080 and sale stuff, is that in order to have an 0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:36.640 actual relationship with women, men have to enter into combat 0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:41.440 against quote unquote society. Right like this, it is larger. 0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:44.759 It's larger thing that's influencing women and is making them, 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:48.120 you know, depraved and liberal. And Nick argues that even 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:51.520 if you find like a nice, trad Christian girl, they're 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:53.440 gonna be on TikTok, they're gonna be on Instagram, and 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:57.440 they're gonna be quote unquote talking to other women and 0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:00.880 through osmosis, they're gonna get influenced by this liberal culture 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.520 and say, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line, people 0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.160 will change and they may not be so Christian and 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:11.440 trad twenty years into your marriage because of society. 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:15.960 Huh yeah, I mean, I guess that's the argument I 0:51:16.040 --> 0:51:17.000 expected from him. 0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:19.439 He'll extracolate some of his reasoning here. 0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:22.760 And I think that women as kind of the ultimate conformists, 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:27.160 the ultimate enforcers of like social norms. I think eventually 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:29.840 the pressure from society kind of gets to them, and 0:51:29.880 --> 0:51:31.040 a lot of them will go into. 0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:32.759 It depends what kind of husbands they have. I mean, 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:34.839 if there's real leadership at home. I don't know a 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:38.799 single happily married woman who's liberal, not one. I know 0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:40.360 a lot of married women. 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:43.840 Here's some of the pushback that Tucker is doing now. 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:46.480 But yeah, man, this idea of you know, that women 0:51:46.480 --> 0:51:50.359 as the ultimate conformists is the enforcers of social norms, right, 0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:52.920 This is like kind of like the long House type stuff. 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:56.000 And Tucker's rebuke of that is that in an actual 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.800 you know, marriage with a conservative man, a strong and 0:51:59.840 --> 0:52:02.720 so it of man, all that behavior will get changed 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:07.120 because people will fall into like their natural biological patriarchal roles. 0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:10.799 But Nick still doesn't buy it. Like he is he is, 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:13.440 he is an insul at heart. Here's no way that 0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:16.560 that Tucker's kind of push back gonna it's gonna turn 0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:19.880 him on this. Like Nick just hates women entirely. This 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.960 whole motivation is that due to some sort of like 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:28.400 fascist homo erotic like aspect maybe, but it's it's probably 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:30.360 even more complicated than that. I mean, part of the 0:52:30.360 --> 0:52:33.279 fascist fenboy thing is people who actually aren't even gay 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:36.319 but just hate women so much that they end up 0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:39.840 being gay because that's like the only mode of connection 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:41.759 they can even or like physical connection. They can even 0:52:41.800 --> 0:52:45.040 like muster themselves to to like do, which I explained 0:52:45.040 --> 0:52:46.719 in that episode from you know a few years ago 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.640 when I was a baby. But yeah, this is definitely 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:52.120 some stuff at play here, and I mean Nick will 0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:54.720 always just find new things to complain about in regards 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:57.600 to this sort of stuff, like the quote unquote epidemic 0:52:57.640 --> 0:52:58.240 of simps. 0:52:58.800 --> 0:53:02.360 So like maybe the job is to make you girl 0:53:02.360 --> 0:53:04.280 happy in like all this nonsense ends. 0:53:05.040 --> 0:53:05.759 Yeah, I don't know. 0:53:05.840 --> 0:53:08.520 I think that that could be a bottomless pit too, 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:11.840 because my critique I have of the men is, and 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.800 you're right about this, they enable this behavior. 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:17.360 Well, that's for sure, it's epidemic of simps. 0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:22.399 Who and especially with Christians, I've noticed this epic of. 0:53:22.440 --> 0:53:25.560 Six Yeah, that's that's something else. 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:27.480 Marriage has this bottomless pit. 0:53:28.640 --> 0:53:31.879 I also love the idea that Tucker's like, well, why 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.319 are men just making women happy. And you know the 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.560 answer there for Tucker is that people like you are 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:40.320 not capable of making other people happy. But Nick can't 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.200 even consider that because the idea of women being happy 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:45.239 is deeply offensive to him. 0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:45.520 Yeah. 0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:48.680 No, I mean Nick says that simp culture, or more specifically, 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:51.640 a backlash to simp culture, is why people like Andrew 0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:54.320 Tate have gotten so popular despite being a quote unquote 0:53:54.440 --> 0:53:59.880 Muslim polchemist, because Tate is quote putting a women in 0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:03.880 their place, as opposed to Christian men who are tone 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:07.800 policing each other and are worshiping women and worshiping their wives, 0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:11.279 which Tucker pushes back on a bit by saying that 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:15.319 the New Testament commands men to love their wives and 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:18.880 that wives respect their husbands. We got only two more 0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:21.640 at clips left, but I think they are very revealing, 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:24.240 all right, as much else needs to be revealed here. 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:27.239 I do think I've just noticed this that men who 0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:32.440 stay unmarried for too long become like kind of fragile. 0:54:33.520 --> 0:54:35.600 There's something about the give and take. There's something about 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:37.600 living with In fact, I think it's the key to life. 0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:44.360 Someone you don't fully understand that broadens you, that keeps 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:50.800 you always thinking that makes you wiser, more patient, more thoughtful, 0:54:50.880 --> 0:54:54.400 more self aware, and more flexible. 0:54:54.719 --> 0:54:56.080 And those are all good qualities. 0:54:56.920 --> 0:55:00.799 And the absence of that, like in with sexuality, or 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.760 like men who are single too long, they get very rigid. 0:55:03.880 --> 0:55:04.600 Have you ever noticed this? 0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:05.719 Have you ever noticed this? 0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:07.799 I like things the way I like them, and they 0:55:07.840 --> 0:55:11.480 just get like no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't 0:55:11.480 --> 0:55:11.920 want that. 0:55:12.320 --> 0:55:14.080 Really, because that's who you are. Nick. 0:55:14.480 --> 0:55:17.359 I would say that when when you say you don't 0:55:17.400 --> 0:55:19.759 fully understand women. To me, I feel like women are 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:23.319 very simple in terms of lived with one. No, I 0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:26.720 haven't lived with them, but I meant. 0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:31.359 Oh, man, women are really simple. Have you ever lived 0:55:31.360 --> 0:55:32.439 with one? No? 0:55:33.200 --> 0:55:36.600 It's really funny up until the assuming all gay people 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:39.120 are the same bit. Tucker's making a good point, which 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:41.880 is that like part of what's healthy about relationships is 0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:45.360 like living with someone who's not like you, right, just 0:55:45.360 --> 0:55:46.840 like that makes us better people. 0:55:47.920 --> 0:55:50.840 And he's very clearly trying to like like push Nick's 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:54.560 buttons here, Yeah, because he knows, he knows, he knows, 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:57.120 because Nick's getting called out because yeah, he's this angry, 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:01.320 unmarried guy. He's this like ye little unhinged freak. 0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:03.040 Yeah. 0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:06.239 Oh and Yeah, he's like getting he's absolutely getting called 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:09.399 out here. And it's funny that this is the thing 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:11.880 out of the of the entire interview that that that 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:14.799 Tucker really tries to harp on. It's it's this married thing, 0:56:14.840 --> 0:56:17.160 Like he really wants Nick to get married. That's kind 0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:19.920 of the main thing he's really pushing for by the 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:20.760 end of this interview. 0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:22.280 Yeah, bro, that's gonna happen. 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:26.200 Have you ever lived with one? Well no, no, of 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:30.279 course not. It's wild. I mean, well, later Nick tries 0:56:30.320 --> 0:56:32.640 to argue that, you know, it's it's really the men 0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:36.719 who are complicated because men have a quote deep connection 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:39.560 to math and space unquote. 0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:42.839 Sure, yeah, man, I love my deep connection to math 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:43.480 and space. 0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:46.760 Yeah, Robert's so good at math and space. 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:50.240 Yeah, it's really my strong suits math and space. 0:56:50.640 --> 0:56:52.799 Anyone that knows you, I would. 0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:55.480 Say, every man I know is good at math and space. 0:56:56.400 --> 0:57:01.560 Versus you know, women just operate on primal base inurse. Yes, 0:57:01.960 --> 0:57:06.680 Nicks quote, men are masters of the universe. Women are 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:09.800 the universe, which I think is a quote from someone else. 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:13.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, god, yeah, you're a real master of 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:14.439 the universe. Nick. 0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:18.160 This will be the final clip where Tucker will offer 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:21.400 a little bit more pushback towards Nick on some of 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:24.640 his views about women in marriage. You've got a pretty 0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:27.560 clear look into into Nick's interiority here as well. 0:57:27.840 --> 0:57:29.400 So but anyway, but whatever, the point of men want 0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:33.440 to talk past each other constantly, they don't always know 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:38.280 what the other one is saying, and that frustration actually 0:57:38.320 --> 0:57:42.440 gives way to like great beauty over time. I would say, 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:43.040 I don't know. 0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:49.800 I personally find women very frustrated when they are not expressing, and. 0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:51.280 I just view that as any of it. 0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:53.080 I see. 0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:55.200 The way I look at is like when you look 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:59.840 at your favorite TV shows, right, Sopranos Breaking Bad, It's 0:57:59.880 --> 0:58:02.640 like the wife is the villain because it's like the 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:05.960 main character, if the wife could just get out of 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:09.160 the way, would be running the shell. And that's kind 0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:11.680 of how I feel. Like iron Rand I agree with 0:58:11.720 --> 0:58:13.960 her about this. She said that the wife's role is 0:58:14.000 --> 0:58:17.840 like hero worship. The guy is the hero. The guy 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:20.800 is supposed to be the entrepreneur, the conqueror or whatever, 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:23.800 and the woman is really supposed to support the man's 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:25.120 goals and be in his world. 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:28.040 And I van that's the well, last thing successful men 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:30.880 need is more power worship more, a hero worship more. 0:58:31.560 --> 0:58:32.360 You're so great? 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:34.760 Well, you get that at work, you don't want that 0:58:34.880 --> 0:58:40.040 at home. You become an unbearable absolute pray to destroys 0:58:40.040 --> 0:58:42.400 every successful man, which is hubrisk, Like you mistake yourself 0:58:42.400 --> 0:58:44.880 for God. You need someone who's not interested in what 0:58:44.920 --> 0:58:48.240 you do at all, only interested in you. And that's 0:58:48.280 --> 0:58:50.880 how you become balanced and wise. That's how you know 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:51.600 your own limits. 0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:54.920 That's shockingly good advice from Tucker Carlson. 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:59.640 Like this, This is so beautiful. This is so beautiful 0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:02.400 to me. When Tucker Carlson is the voice of reason, 0:59:02.480 --> 0:59:07.320 it's it's really really scary weak. Yeah, but no, so 0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:10.840 clearly is next like a closet and gay in cell 0:59:10.960 --> 0:59:16.160 showing here? Well, like, well, Tucker pains pains to explain 0:59:16.320 --> 0:59:21.200 to Nick why people actually get into relationships. Yeah, and 0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:23.760 Nick just can't do it. He starts talking about the 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:29.080 Sopranos and fucking breaking bad. That's like the only framework 0:59:29.440 --> 0:59:31.720 in which you could understand this because he's never had 0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:36.320 a real relationship. The wife is the villain, I agree 0:59:36.360 --> 0:59:41.320 with ein Rand. Yeah, famously well adjusted in the relationship department. 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:45.520 Iin Rand, the wife's role is hero for chef, and 0:59:45.560 --> 0:59:47.960 Tucker's like, oh my god, no, that that's horrible. 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.680 Oh no, that's that's what ruins people, that destroys people. 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:54.080 It's fascinating. No, yeah, this is a this is a 0:59:54.080 --> 0:59:57.560 truly fascinating exchange. And it's really telling that this is 0:59:57.600 --> 1:00:00.880 the thing that Tucker pushes back on not anti semitism, 1:00:01.040 --> 1:00:03.920 but she like kind of tepidly offered Nick advice on 1:00:03.960 --> 1:00:06.400 how to change his rhetoric to be more appealing, but 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:08.480 did not push back on the substance of it, because 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:11.120 Tucker is actually just as anti Semitic as Nick is. Yeah, 1:00:11.160 --> 1:00:13.200 but no, this is this is the thing that he 1:00:13.320 --> 1:00:17.120 that he decided to do. And yeah, like my initial 1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:19.880 feeling after watching this whole two hour and eighteen minute 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:22.960 stream is like this whole stream or this whole episode 1:00:23.040 --> 1:00:25.760 felt like Tucker was kind of trying to be some 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:28.200 sort of mentor figured to Neck or saw that Nick 1:00:28.320 --> 1:00:31.080 might be the future in some way, like might be 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:33.160 whether whether it's the future of the party or future 1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:35.520 of like you know, this sort of like commentating class 1:00:35.600 --> 1:00:37.800 or style, and it kind of wanted to offer a 1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:40.480 little bit of a guiding light towards someone who I 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:43.520 think Tucker does see, as you know, having some obvious 1:00:43.520 --> 1:00:47.200 issues and saying some nasty things and wanting to kind 1:00:47.240 --> 1:00:49.600 of write that course in a way or provide Nick 1:00:49.640 --> 1:00:51.720 a bit of a fresh start to restate some of 1:00:51.760 --> 1:00:54.560 his views on the biggest right wing platform online, which 1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:57.439 is which is Tucker's show. Right now, I guess that's 1:00:57.520 --> 1:00:59.640 kind of that's kind of all I have on this 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:03.480 women in poor section. I guess the last thing before 1:01:03.480 --> 1:01:06.360 we close, there is this question right with people in 1:01:06.360 --> 1:01:10.920 the GOP who are scared about Nick's Nick's influence at 1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:14.600 least in the commentating classroom among like interns, but specifically 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.000 scared of it one because of the you know, anti 1:01:17.120 --> 1:01:20.160 Israel stuff, but also if that's going to hurt them electorally. Right, 1:01:20.160 --> 1:01:22.320 A lot of people couch this and saying, well, you know, 1:01:22.360 --> 1:01:25.320 these views aren't popular with the electorate. Republicans are never 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.959 going to win elections if this Graper thing takes over, 1:01:29.720 --> 1:01:33.840 and that leaves us, you know, people who are against 1:01:34.080 --> 1:01:37.000 against you know, the rise of fascism and authoritarianism in 1:01:37.120 --> 1:01:39.760 kind of a weird spot because I don't think we 1:01:39.800 --> 1:01:43.360 can really do anything to encourage like the graperification of 1:01:43.400 --> 1:01:47.200 the GOP like an accelerationist fashion. But we can kind 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:50.520 of let it happen. We can choose to just let 1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:52.920 it happen, or we can choose to kind of stop 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:57.160 it in like the twenty seventeen Antifa, you know, framework 1:01:57.200 --> 1:01:58.960 of like trying to prevent this stuffrom spreading because it 1:01:58.960 --> 1:02:02.920 will always lead to bad things. And yeah, after doing 1:02:03.000 --> 1:02:06.400 all this research last week and really continuing into this 1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:09.440 week too, I mean Trump just gave a statement in 1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:12.160 support of Talker and saying that he should get the 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:16.520 word out about Nick Fuentes, I've continued to be looking 1:02:16.520 --> 1:02:18.880 at this stuff and can we even stop it though? 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:20.760 At this point? Right, like how much of the Antifa 1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:25.200 project like even succeeded considering where we are now politically right, 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:27.720 But no, there certainly is this like internal debate in 1:02:27.800 --> 1:02:30.960 terms of letting this stuff happen versus trying to actively 1:02:30.960 --> 1:02:33.840 oppose this like Graper takeover of the GOP. 1:02:34.520 --> 1:02:39.320 Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's realistically anything that 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:44.240 we can do to influence how popular Nick Fuintes is 1:02:44.280 --> 1:02:46.480 on the right. Like if you just start screaming about 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:49.600 how bad and dangerous he is, that's going to convince 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:51.560 a lot of people Oh, well, the left hates him. 1:02:51.560 --> 1:02:53.800 That must mean you know he's our guy. 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:54.560 Yeah. 1:02:54.840 --> 1:02:59.000 Likewise, I don't know. I don't think it's our place. 1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:01.400 I think it's our place to make sure people know 1:03:01.480 --> 1:03:04.120 what Nick actually stands for. That if there's some sort 1:03:04.160 --> 1:03:07.600 of like whitewashing of his character that they attempt to 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:09.720 do in order to make this more electorally viable, that 1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:13.240 people are aware of, like how how unhinged this guy is? 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:15.840 I don't think. I don't think the kind of shit 1:03:15.920 --> 1:03:19.840 Nick is saying here will will do well when exposed 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:22.320 to the body politic as a whole, because it's nuts. 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:25.400 But that said, like, I don't think you can. You're 1:03:25.440 --> 1:03:26.680 going to scold your way out of this. 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:30.040 No, no, And I guess part of the education is 1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:33.280 making sure people have a more full understanding of Nick 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:36.040 Quinn has his views on women and his uh yeah, 1:03:36.080 --> 1:03:38.880 and his little conversation on pornography. I think that actually 1:03:38.960 --> 1:03:42.200 is important because all of these guys are weird, little 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:43.680 in selfreaks. 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:45.680 Yes, and people don't like how weird they are when 1:03:45.680 --> 1:03:49.040 they're confronted with it. No, right, Mostly what they're concerned 1:03:49.040 --> 1:03:51.520 about is whether or not there are jobs, and shit 1:03:51.800 --> 1:03:55.480 is more or less expensive. They don't want some weirdo 1:03:55.640 --> 1:03:58.760 telling them that living with women will make them weaker. 1:04:00.400 --> 1:04:04.520 Even Tucker doesn't like that. Yeah, well I think that 1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:08.480 does it for us today at it could happen here. Great. 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:10.920 I hope this episode is something. 1:04:11.400 --> 1:04:13.960 Yeah, I hope it's something too. 1:04:14.240 --> 1:04:34.160 Good Night, goodbye, welcome to take it happen here a 1:04:34.200 --> 1:04:36.680 podcast telling you to rage against the dying of the light. 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:40.920 I am your host, Bia long and many episodes ago, 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:45.280 significantly more tearfully. I talked about how, you know, watching 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:48.919 the trans voices in media get fired and disappear felt 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:51.160 like watching the stars disappear in the sky. And today 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:53.200 I am here to say, do not go gently into 1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:56.400 that good night fuck him, rage against the dying of 1:04:56.440 --> 1:05:00.640 the lights and with me to age she gets the 1:05:00.680 --> 1:05:03.640 diying of the light and talk about some absolute bullshit. 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:06.800 Is Alma a Vie who is a former staffer at 1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:08.760 bonapp Petite, and we will be getting into why that's 1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:12.520 now technically former and the VP of the New Skuild 1:05:12.560 --> 1:05:13.080 of New York. 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:14.480 Alma, welcome to the show. 1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:16.200 Amy, lovely to be here. 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:18.640 I wish it was under better circumstances. I feel like 1:05:18.720 --> 1:05:21.160 everyone I talked to I go, I wish you under 1:05:21.160 --> 1:05:23.120 better circumstances, but you know. 1:05:23.440 --> 1:05:26.280 Yeah, circumstances across the border kind of trash right now. 1:05:26.720 --> 1:05:29.040 Yeah, they're they're really bad. The circumstances they do be 1:05:29.200 --> 1:05:30.280 they do, they do be shit. 1:05:30.920 --> 1:05:35.200 So these specifically bad circumstances are one. Conde Nast has 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:38.680 just obliterated teen Vogue, which had been one of the 1:05:38.720 --> 1:05:41.440 few actually very good progressive outlets, also one of the 1:05:41.480 --> 1:05:45.160 few outlets that would publish trans people regularly, and it's 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:49.280 just gone now. And Alma and three of her coullies 1:05:49.320 --> 1:05:52.240 were fired for very productive union activity, being like, hey, 1:05:52.240 --> 1:05:52.800 what the fuck? 1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:56.640 And we kind of de terms of that. I can 1:05:56.760 --> 1:05:58.320 say this because it's not my ass of. 1:05:58.320 --> 1:06:01.600 The line, but yeah, do you want to talk a 1:06:01.680 --> 1:06:02.480 bit about what happened? 1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:08.720 Yeah, totally. I mean to give the company it's caveat. Technically, 1:06:08.720 --> 1:06:11.440 teen Vogue still exists. It has just been moved under 1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:15.200 the broader organization of Vogue. They've now said that it's 1:06:15.840 --> 1:06:21.480 coverage areas will include professional development as well as well. 1:06:21.480 --> 1:06:23.080 There are a couple of other things that they highlighted, 1:06:23.080 --> 1:06:26.080 but certainly the things that they did not highlight include, say, 1:06:26.720 --> 1:06:29.480 you know, scathing coverage of the Trump administration, or coverage 1:06:29.480 --> 1:06:32.440 of trans youth and trans healthcare bands for teenagers, coverage 1:06:32.440 --> 1:06:35.200 of like young celebrities of color, and so on. But yeah, anyway, 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:37.600 I guess to just go back to the start of 1:06:37.640 --> 1:06:41.240 the timeline. Last Monday, we at the News Guild and 1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:43.240 you know, at the Conde Nast Union, which is the 1:06:43.720 --> 1:06:47.440 union that represents basically every worker or every journalist and 1:06:47.560 --> 1:06:51.000 video maker at Conde Nast except for those in the 1:06:51.080 --> 1:06:54.120 New Yorker. They are in like a separate bargaining unit 1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:56.800 that we see as like you know, linked sibling units 1:06:57.040 --> 1:06:59.560 at the linked sibling unions. We do most of our 1:06:59.680 --> 1:07:04.320 organize together and our contracts are nearly identical. But anyway, 1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:09.040 we were yeah, I know, right, union siblings. It's adorable. Yeah, 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:11.600 we try to stay close. But anyway, we got word 1:07:12.120 --> 1:07:14.880 last Monday that about two thirds of the staff of 1:07:14.880 --> 1:07:17.840 teen Vogue were being laid off, including a friend of 1:07:17.840 --> 1:07:19.680 mine and I think former guests on your show, actually 1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:22.880 Lex mcmahamon, who was the politics editor at teen Vogue, 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:24.800 as well as a few. 1:07:24.600 --> 1:07:25.680 Of their culture editors. 1:07:26.240 --> 1:07:29.080 Basically like if they were covering I mean, being a 1:07:29.120 --> 1:07:31.280 little glib here but like if they were covering say 1:07:31.320 --> 1:07:35.680 like trans writes, trans youth, like progressive culture in nearly 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:38.160 any way shape or form. YEP, they were either laid 1:07:38.200 --> 1:07:40.840 off or the remaining workers were folded into the larger 1:07:40.920 --> 1:07:43.760 organization of Vogue, and I think they're still figuring out 1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:46.360 exactly where they fit into that organization and what like 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:50.400 youth coverage looks like going forward. So that happened last Monday, 1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:52.720 which was obviously a massive loss. I sat in on 1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:55.240 a lot of the like the winegarden meetings going over 1:07:55.360 --> 1:07:57.840 the exit packages for those employees, a lot of like 1:07:57.920 --> 1:08:00.000 really sad and cheerful meetings that day. 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:02.440 We should point out this is being recorded on Monday, 1:08:02.520 --> 1:08:05.400 the tenth. Last Monday's is Monday, November third. Not sure 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:06.720 when this is gonna come out yet, just to make 1:08:06.720 --> 1:08:09.479 it come link clear here. Yes, absolutely, November third. Yeah, 1:08:09.480 --> 1:08:11.920 that was Monday, November third. Yeah, thank you for the correction. 1:08:12.920 --> 1:08:16.559 And then two days later at the company we got 1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:19.640 a notification that there was another round of layoffs, this 1:08:19.680 --> 1:08:22.640 one hitting I believe folks on the video teams and 1:08:22.680 --> 1:08:26.160 then people on the like copy in fact checking section 1:08:26.240 --> 1:08:27.160 of the company as well. 1:08:27.640 --> 1:08:32.439 This was super disruptive. Usually, you know, at a company 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:35.599 like Conde Nast, well, the union doesn't have like explicit 1:08:35.680 --> 1:08:38.000 protections for this, and in fact, like the company has 1:08:38.400 --> 1:08:40.439 the right to perform layoffs if they need to for 1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:43.840 business reasons. Usually when a round of layoffs goes through, 1:08:44.000 --> 1:08:46.599 there's like a period of peace that comes after that. 1:08:46.720 --> 1:08:49.519 You know, like there will be you know, a reduction 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:51.760 enforce will figure out, Okay, how are we going to 1:08:51.840 --> 1:08:53.800 keep doing our jobs now that we have fewer staffers, 1:08:54.120 --> 1:08:56.759 And then if the company needs to reduce the staff again, 1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:59.479 that will happen like a few months, maybe a year 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:02.000 in the future. Two rounds of layoffs in the same 1:09:02.040 --> 1:09:05.639 week had people really really scared and really stressed out, 1:09:05.960 --> 1:09:08.240 because I mean, for one, there's like just the sense 1:09:08.240 --> 1:09:10.280 of like, oh God, a lot of my coworkers are gone, 1:09:10.600 --> 1:09:11.880 how am I going to be able to keep doing 1:09:11.880 --> 1:09:15.200 my job? We lost at my magazine, bon Apetite. We 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:18.919 lost our social media director, the person who was basically 1:09:19.200 --> 1:09:22.719 running our social accounts. We'd gotten notification from the company 1:09:22.760 --> 1:09:25.200 that editors were going to be doing their own posting 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:28.880 from then on, which is just not how things have 1:09:28.960 --> 1:09:31.080 ever worked before, not really a thing that they're like 1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:33.680 You know, my colleagues are brilliant, and many of them 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:35.960 are brilliant like users of social media, but like not 1:09:36.040 --> 1:09:38.519 really a part of our jobs historically. So we're all 1:09:38.520 --> 1:09:41.040 pretty confused how we were supposed to, you know, actually 1:09:41.080 --> 1:09:43.400 keep running our magazine. Most of our magazines are already 1:09:43.439 --> 1:09:47.360 running on pretty reduced staffs in the first place. Yeah, 1:09:47.400 --> 1:09:52.679 so anyway between that and the kind of obvious political 1:09:52.680 --> 1:09:54.519 connection that one could draw, or at least like that, 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:56.160 a lot of our members were afraid of, you know, 1:09:56.240 --> 1:09:59.640 ten Vogue being this like pretty famously radical or at 1:09:59.640 --> 1:10:02.360 the very it's like pretty famously progressive publication doing some 1:10:02.439 --> 1:10:05.599 like really really hard hitting journalism. There's a really clear 1:10:05.680 --> 1:10:08.160 line you can draw between like all of the Colbert 1:10:08.200 --> 1:10:11.000 and Jimmy Kibble, but also like the CBS stuff with 1:10:11.040 --> 1:10:13.679 Barry Weiss, like this kind of broader right wing shift 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.400 in media. You can draw, i think a direct line 1:10:16.400 --> 1:10:18.880 between all of that and like the shuttering or near 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:22.479 shuttering of teen Vogue. So we did a thing that 1:10:22.520 --> 1:10:26.640 we basically always do when we're facing an issue like this, 1:10:26.800 --> 1:10:29.240 whether it's a big reduction in force or just some 1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:31.479 decision from the upper levels of the management that have 1:10:32.000 --> 1:10:33.680 all of the workers being like, wait, what, what the 1:10:33.720 --> 1:10:36.080 fuck did you just do? We had a rally in 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.680 the cafeteria to go over some of the questions that 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:41.720 we all have for management. We created a list of 1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:44.080 questions that we wanted to ask and then, and I 1:10:44.080 --> 1:10:46.800 cannot stress how like routine this is for us as 1:10:46.800 --> 1:10:49.519 a union. We went from the cafeteria, which is on 1:10:49.640 --> 1:10:52.280 the thirty fifth floor of the World Trade Center, down 1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:54.800 to the executive floor, which is directly below it on 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:57.439 the thirty fourth floor of the World Trade Center, and 1:10:57.479 --> 1:10:59.640 we walked over to the executive offices and said, we 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:02.960 have some questions for Stan Duncan, who is the head 1:11:02.960 --> 1:11:05.559 of the people team at CONDE, and asked basically one 1:11:05.600 --> 1:11:08.640 of the people in charge of either making these decisions 1:11:08.680 --> 1:11:11.559 of you know, staffing in reduction, and then of enforcing 1:11:11.600 --> 1:11:14.000 those decisions as well. We went down to speak with 1:11:14.000 --> 1:11:17.320 Stan Duncan, asked him some of our questions to other 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:20.400 HR employees came out in medicine the hallway. We said 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:22.479 we'd like to speak to Stan. We were happy to 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:24.400 ask them our questions, but they said they wouldn't be 1:11:24.479 --> 1:11:26.439 particularly good at answering them or they might not have 1:11:26.479 --> 1:11:28.880 good answers for us. But Stan, they said, was in 1:11:28.920 --> 1:11:31.120 a meeting at the time. It just so happened that 1:11:31.200 --> 1:11:34.559 either Stan's meeting ended right then, or maybe he heard 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:36.439 people talking in the hallway and decided to come check 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:38.880 it out, or maybe there wasn't a meeting, but for 1:11:38.920 --> 1:11:41.920 whatever reason, Stan happened to come out into the hallway 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:45.400 at that time, and so we started trying to ask 1:11:45.439 --> 1:11:48.559 him our questions. Some of those questions included, like, was 1:11:48.640 --> 1:11:51.519 the closing of teen Vogue inherently political? But also how 1:11:51.560 --> 1:11:52.880 are we going to be able to do our jobs 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:55.680 going forward? How are we supposed to keep running these 1:11:55.680 --> 1:11:58.439 magazines if you're going to keep cutting our jobs? And 1:11:58.439 --> 1:11:59.840 then also how are we supposed to keep doing our 1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:03.280 jobs if we are constantly living in fear of losing them? 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:03.600 You know. 1:12:05.080 --> 1:12:09.559 Stan does not answer any of these questions, of course, yeah, no, naturally, 1:12:10.400 --> 1:12:12.640 he tells us we're not allowed to congregate in the hallway. 1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:17.240 This is not true, of course, we what, well, yeah, 1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:20.320 we I mean, One, this is our workplace. We I 1:12:20.360 --> 1:12:22.360 think are allowed to have conversations in the hallway of 1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:25.080 our workplace. Two, I mean, if he was saying that 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:28.200 we weren't allowed to say, take part in union activities 1:12:28.240 --> 1:12:30.880 in the workplace. We have a right under Section seven 1:12:30.920 --> 1:12:33.360 of the NLRA that says we can do that. We 1:12:33.400 --> 1:12:36.120 also have like contract provisions that say the company will 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:38.400 not infringe upon our right to organize and demonstrate in 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:40.679 the workplace. So that just wasn't true. And in fact, 1:12:40.680 --> 1:12:44.000 the union, before everything else happened, already filed a grievance 1:12:44.160 --> 1:12:47.479 about denying our Section seven rights to organize in the workplace. 1:12:47.880 --> 1:12:48.120 God. 1:12:48.479 --> 1:12:51.559 Yeah, So anyway, Stan tries to get us to go 1:12:51.600 --> 1:12:54.920 back to our desks. He walks across the floor, tells 1:12:55.000 --> 1:12:58.120 us to follow him. We follow him and keep asking questions. 1:12:58.560 --> 1:13:00.200 He says that we have to go back I can 1:13:00.240 --> 1:13:02.519 do our jobs. We say, we will happily do our 1:13:02.600 --> 1:13:05.080 jobs if you could just answer our questions. He tells 1:13:05.120 --> 1:13:06.680 us that we have to go back to our workplaces. 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:10.640 We remind him this is our workplace, and anyway, we 1:13:10.720 --> 1:13:12.920 end up asking him those questions. We follow him back 1:13:12.920 --> 1:13:15.439 and forth along the hallway. He goes back into his office, 1:13:15.640 --> 1:13:17.880 closes the door. We all go back to our desks 1:13:17.880 --> 1:13:20.240 for the rest of the day. I finish up my 1:13:20.280 --> 1:13:22.760 work and I go home and then I get notification 1:13:22.920 --> 1:13:26.400 from the News Guild at seven that the company has 1:13:26.439 --> 1:13:30.360 notified them that they are terminating me and three of 1:13:30.400 --> 1:13:35.719 my colleagues. Jesus Christ, no severance, no ongoing insurance coverage. 1:13:35.720 --> 1:13:39.479 My insurance expires at the end of the month. No notice, 1:13:39.520 --> 1:13:43.760 no investigation, effective immediately. So as of last Wednesday, I 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:46.479 am no longer an employee of Conde and Asked. I'd 1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:48.600 been working there for five years. I helped start the 1:13:48.600 --> 1:13:51.519 Conde and Ask union. In the time since I joined there, 1:13:51.840 --> 1:13:54.479 I was one of the most tenured members of my magazine. Actually, 1:13:54.800 --> 1:13:57.679 people don't generally stick around there for a long time, 1:13:57.760 --> 1:13:59.799 but at twenty seven years old, I was a long hauler. 1:14:02.439 --> 1:14:06.200 And yeah, in the time since then, our union has 1:14:06.720 --> 1:14:10.080 filed a second degreevance. There was the first one over 1:14:10.120 --> 1:14:12.720 telling us we couldn't congregate. There's now a second one 1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:16.400 over the retaliatory firings of me and my three colleagues. 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:19.960 The company has since put five other people I believe 1:14:20.000 --> 1:14:23.720 on an unpaid leave in an attempt to discipline more 1:14:23.760 --> 1:14:27.040 people who took part in the demonstration. It's kind of 1:14:27.080 --> 1:14:29.479 hard to see rhyme or reason in the people that 1:14:29.520 --> 1:14:32.800 they decided to discipline. So I was speaking quite a 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:35.679 bit during the demonstration, as was one of the other 1:14:35.720 --> 1:14:39.920 people who was terminated. One person asked one question that 1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:42.519 was a Jake Lahud at Wired. He asked a question 1:14:42.560 --> 1:14:45.479 towards the beginning, which was, what is your definition of 1:14:45.560 --> 1:14:47.840 congregate when they told us we can't congregate in the 1:14:47.840 --> 1:14:50.280 whole way? Which I think is a perfectly valid question. 1:14:51.240 --> 1:14:53.639 And then one person who was terminated actually as far 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:55.880 as I know, didn't speak at all during the demonstration. 1:14:56.439 --> 1:14:59.840 He was, however, the vice president of the New Yorker Union, 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:03.160 the vice chair of the New York UNI, and you know, 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:05.519 an organizer that the company was like very well aware of. 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:08.240 And then as for the people who were placed on 1:15:08.320 --> 1:15:10.679 disciplinary leaves, I mean, I believe some of them actually 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:12.840 spoke significantly more than some of the people who were 1:15:12.920 --> 1:15:16.439 terminated during the demonstration, but were certainly, like historically at 1:15:16.479 --> 1:15:19.280 the very least, less visible and less vocal union organizers. 1:15:19.320 --> 1:15:21.360 So the trend that we're seeing is that the people 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:24.000 who spoke up were either people who had been historically 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:27.120 very active in the union, or in Jake's case, somebody 1:15:27.160 --> 1:15:29.559 who was doing really really impressive coverage of the Trump 1:15:29.600 --> 1:15:32.840 administration and like really really hard hitting journalism against like 1:15:33.160 --> 1:15:35.200 Doge and like the general efforts of the right right 1:15:35.200 --> 1:15:37.839 now to you know, I mean, listeners of this podcast 1:15:37.880 --> 1:15:39.000 know everything that's going on there. 1:15:40.200 --> 1:15:40.439 Yep. 1:15:50.960 --> 1:15:52.880 I'm going to say this, and I'm going to adopt 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:56.880 preferred language of these professionals, which is to say that 1:15:56.960 --> 1:15:59.080 and this is the preferred language of management. Is that 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:03.160 some people are called this both a return of resegregation 1:16:03.360 --> 1:16:06.800 and an obvious anti union political perch because it is 1:16:06.880 --> 1:16:08.760 a bunch of trans people and a bunch of them 1:16:08.800 --> 1:16:12.640 white people who have been eliminated from teen vogue. You know, 1:16:12.840 --> 1:16:14.559 this is something that you were talking about earlier, about 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:18.479 drawing the connection between this and CBS. I'm like, yeah, 1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:20.519 what did Barry Weis do when she got into CBS? 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:23.160 She fired like every non white person who worked there, right, 1:16:23.520 --> 1:16:27.640 because their avert political plan is resegregation. And you know, 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:29.720 in order to do resegregation, you fire all of the 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:32.519 people who are non white, you get rid of any 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:34.880 trans people, and you get women. Admittedly, at CBS, it's 1:16:34.920 --> 1:16:38.240 not like they had like a giant like like you know. 1:16:39.400 --> 1:16:42.040 It wasn't like like I had of trans politics in 1:16:42.080 --> 1:16:43.880 the first place. I mean, they had some like you are. 1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:45.280 There's people there who are like cool. 1:16:45.120 --> 1:16:48.400 But like it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like 1:16:48.479 --> 1:16:51.680 teen Vogue, which genuinely had way more trans coverage than 1:16:51.680 --> 1:16:52.559 like any other outlet. 1:16:52.840 --> 1:16:54.200 No, totally, Like I. 1:16:54.160 --> 1:16:56.680 Can I emphasize enough, like the extent to which this 1:16:56.760 --> 1:16:59.120 is the most normal union activity in the entire world, 1:16:59.160 --> 1:17:01.320 into which this is the most protected category in the 1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:03.479 entire world, and you know. 1:17:03.439 --> 1:17:05.400 Obviously a bunch of the bosses and a bunch of 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:07.240 like the corporations that are doing this shit like don't 1:17:07.280 --> 1:17:10.360 think the NLRA should exist, and like is like a 1:17:10.400 --> 1:17:13.240 legally valeled thing, but it's still enforced right now, and 1:17:13.360 --> 1:17:17.439 so while mostly but like for this, yeah, still in force, 1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:21.200 so there doesn't unbelievably hideous the illegal retaliatory firings that 1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.840 are illegal in like so many different ways. It's baffling, 1:17:25.920 --> 1:17:28.920 Like it's like you need like a second law degree 1:17:28.960 --> 1:17:30.920 to fight every single law they just broke. 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:33.920 Totally. I mean, the thing that I would point out 1:17:33.920 --> 1:17:36.160 too is, like, like you said, this is an extremely 1:17:36.200 --> 1:17:39.040 common type of union action, Like across the entire labor 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:42.680 everyone does. Everyone marches on the boss. We also specifically 1:17:42.760 --> 1:17:44.720 like as a union we've marched on the boss like 1:17:45.000 --> 1:17:47.759 tons of different times. Yeah, we've marched on Stan multiple 1:17:47.760 --> 1:17:50.400 times in the past. There was one demonstration where we 1:17:50.479 --> 1:17:54.080 all marched on stand during contract bargaining actually last year, 1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:58.040 where we had significantly more people and I will say 1:17:58.080 --> 1:18:01.880 being much more confrontational. I remember like a large crowd 1:18:01.960 --> 1:18:06.160 booing him in front of like the entire executive floor, 1:18:06.200 --> 1:18:09.639 and I would say, and I would say, like two 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:12.680 to three times as many people present watching in a 1:18:12.720 --> 1:18:16.600 much more like loud and activated and energetic forum. But 1:18:16.720 --> 1:18:19.000 we've had marches on other executives, We've had marches on 1:18:19.200 --> 1:18:21.240 editors in chief in the past. And I mean one 1:18:21.280 --> 1:18:23.080 of the reasons that like when I got the news 1:18:23.080 --> 1:18:26.000 that I was being terminated, I like basically went into shock. 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:28.960 This felt extremely tame compared to past union actions that 1:18:28.960 --> 1:18:31.800 we've done. Yeah, and also, no one has ever been 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:34.640 disciplined for par taking part in any action like this 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:37.439 in the past, like, let alone terminated. Like as far 1:18:37.479 --> 1:18:38.920 as I know, no one's ever been called into a 1:18:38.920 --> 1:18:41.080 meeting and said like, you shouldn't have done that, and 1:18:41.120 --> 1:18:43.280 we're keeping an eye on you. So this is like 1:18:43.360 --> 1:18:46.840 a massive escalation on the company side in terms of retaliation. 1:18:47.520 --> 1:18:49.200 And I mean that's also what we've heard kind of 1:18:49.200 --> 1:18:50.840 across the board at the News Guild. You know, I've 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:54.000 been in close conversations with our president and with other 1:18:54.080 --> 1:18:56.680 like organizers at the Guild who have said, and this is, 1:18:56.680 --> 1:18:59.280 you know, our local union that organizes a bunch of 1:18:59.320 --> 1:19:02.200 different applications in New York City and kind of in 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:04.839 the surrounding area. This is one of the most egregious 1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:07.840 examples of retaliation that just about anybody I've talked who 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:10.599 has seen in our union's history. And there's like pretty 1:19:11.040 --> 1:19:13.640 I think valid concern that like if a company like 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:15.519 Conde Nast is able to get away with this, like 1:19:16.120 --> 1:19:18.479 other companies within our union are going to like follow 1:19:18.560 --> 1:19:21.200 suit and like take this as their queue, which is 1:19:21.400 --> 1:19:23.360 both scary but also has been energizing for a lot 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:25.519 of people. We've seen, like a lot of folks really 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:27.960 excited to like show up and join our fight and 1:19:28.000 --> 1:19:29.360 get involved in any way that they can. 1:19:30.040 --> 1:19:30.559 Hell yeah. 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:32.640 The other thing that I would point out, based on 1:19:32.680 --> 1:19:35.960 what you were saying, is so Kanye Nast has a 1:19:36.080 --> 1:19:39.920 queer publication them dot Us, which I think is one 1:19:39.960 --> 1:19:42.680 of the all time URLs for a queer publication you 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:46.719 possibly have very funny so between them and teen Vogue, 1:19:46.720 --> 1:19:49.639 you had a lot of the company's like trans staffers. 1:19:49.640 --> 1:19:52.360 They kind of function as like sister publications. They like 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:55.040 sit next to each other, they work closely together outside 1:19:55.040 --> 1:19:57.639 of them. As far as I know, I was the 1:19:57.680 --> 1:20:01.439 only trans woman implied on editorial Conde Nast, and I 1:20:01.479 --> 1:20:05.679 am certainly the only trans woman in our union, including 1:20:05.680 --> 1:20:09.360 at them. Actually, all of the transoman employees there, to 1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:11.720 my understanding, are not part of the unit. They are 1:20:11.960 --> 1:20:16.479 in management positions, which, yeah, your representation, but also means 1:20:16.520 --> 1:20:19.599 that like I was obviously in this very lonely position, 1:20:19.680 --> 1:20:22.439 but also this very like visible and like clearly very 1:20:22.520 --> 1:20:26.439 vulnerable position where it's like incredibly easy to single somebody 1:20:26.479 --> 1:20:29.160 like me out. I would also say, during our contract fight, 1:20:29.240 --> 1:20:31.720 we had a lot of back and forth between like 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:35.800 me and company management about their coverage under the healthcare plan. 1:20:36.320 --> 1:20:39.760 Namely they excluded facial feminization surgery, which meant that, like, 1:20:40.040 --> 1:20:41.680 if you were an employee of Conde Nast and you 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:45.040 wanted facial feminization surgery, you were either out of luck 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:48.799 or had to find a way to raise about fifty 1:20:48.880 --> 1:20:51.960 thousand dollars based on a lot of estimates that I've seen. 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:53.640 If you're really lucky and good and you're going to 1:20:53.680 --> 1:20:55.360 go to Thailand, you can maybe get it for thirty K. 1:20:55.680 --> 1:20:57.920 Yeah right, no exactly which. 1:20:57.760 --> 1:21:00.599 Ammitically the timeline stuff is cool, but totally, I mean, 1:21:00.840 --> 1:21:01.559 it's like a. 1:21:03.160 --> 1:21:04.800 It's a lot of fucking money, like. 1:21:04.920 --> 1:21:08.880 Totally so much shit, even more if you want to 1:21:08.880 --> 1:21:12.040 recover in your own home and your own bed. 1:21:12.720 --> 1:21:12.880 Yeah. 1:21:12.960 --> 1:21:14.680 Actually, and we weren't able to resolve that in the 1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:17.120 contract I got f FS this year, and to do it, 1:21:17.160 --> 1:21:18.719 I had to go on like a New York State 1:21:18.720 --> 1:21:22.559 marketplace plan. Oh no, Jesus Christ, I had both plans 1:21:22.600 --> 1:21:24.800 active at the same time. But I have to get 1:21:24.800 --> 1:21:28.040 like secondary insurance that cost seven hundred dollars a month 1:21:28.080 --> 1:21:29.280 in order to get out of best covered. 1:21:29.360 --> 1:21:29.639 God. 1:21:29.840 --> 1:21:34.320 Yeah, and that still ended up being significantly cheaper. Ye yep, yeah, 1:21:34.360 --> 1:21:38.439 I mean and frankly, like Conde nasked never covered it. Yeah, 1:21:38.840 --> 1:21:40.880 who did cover it was like lots of my union 1:21:40.920 --> 1:21:43.360 colleagues who jumped in and like created to go fundme 1:21:43.400 --> 1:21:45.360 for me and like helped car raise like all of 1:21:45.360 --> 1:21:47.439 the money that I needed to get surgery, and very 1:21:47.520 --> 1:21:50.559 very thankful for that. But anyway, point being like, the 1:21:50.600 --> 1:21:52.880 company does not exactly have the best track record when 1:21:52.920 --> 1:21:54.840 it comes to and like I feel very qualified to 1:21:54.880 --> 1:21:56.960 say this as like the trans woman in the Conde 1:21:57.040 --> 1:21:59.599 Nast union, the company does not exactly have the best 1:21:59.760 --> 1:22:01.880 track record in terms of like how they have treated 1:22:02.439 --> 1:22:05.439 us and me specifically around trans issues. 1:22:05.760 --> 1:22:06.320 Yeah. 1:22:06.360 --> 1:22:07.920 So being like again kind. 1:22:07.840 --> 1:22:09.920 Of singled out in this way and then being hit 1:22:10.000 --> 1:22:13.640 with like this significant a piece of retaliation, it just 1:22:13.640 --> 1:22:17.040 feels really telling and also, I mean really disappointing. Frankly, 1:22:17.120 --> 1:22:20.040 like I've I've been at Conde for or I keep 1:22:20.120 --> 1:22:23.840 using the present tense. I'd been at Conde for five years, 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:26.599 and you know, I liked my job. I was really 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:29.080 good at my job. I hope that they will reverse 1:22:29.120 --> 1:22:32.479 course and turn this around, but anyway, it's disappointing. It's 1:22:32.479 --> 1:22:35.160 disappointing that like that that doesn't really seem to mean 1:22:35.200 --> 1:22:36.559 anything when the rubber hits the road. 1:22:37.000 --> 1:22:37.240 Yeah. 1:22:37.600 --> 1:22:38.840 I think there's two ways you can look at it. 1:22:38.840 --> 1:22:40.960 One is it's like, oh, yeah, of course, of course 1:22:40.960 --> 1:22:42.760 the one trans woman in this bargaining. Yet it was 1:22:42.800 --> 1:22:46.040 like the VP of the union because like, yeah, transforms 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:47.479 do be organizing. 1:22:48.160 --> 1:22:49.400 Do we do do this? 1:22:49.520 --> 1:22:50.360 And that the truth. 1:22:50.680 --> 1:22:52.639 But then the second thing you were talking about this like, yeah, 1:22:52.640 --> 1:22:54.920 the magazines are already understaffed and they're just destroying them, 1:22:54.960 --> 1:22:56.400 you know. And this is something that I can say, 1:22:56.400 --> 1:22:58.200 which is like, this is something we saw from Jeff Bezos, 1:22:58.280 --> 1:23:00.719 right when when Jeff Bezos sort of like took control 1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:03.080 of the Washington Post and then gradually sort of purged 1:23:03.560 --> 1:23:05.519 their staff, and like, you know, has this whole thing 1:23:05.560 --> 1:23:09.080 now about how, oh h, we're supposed to be pro 1:23:09.160 --> 1:23:12.040 free market and pro individual liberties, which does not include 1:23:12.040 --> 1:23:14.240 trans writes. You know, if you look at what happened 1:23:14.240 --> 1:23:18.439 to the Washington Post's subscriber account, it's like nothing, It's 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:22.480 like the paper is dying. It's effectively just like it's 1:23:22.520 --> 1:23:26.160 not like an actual functional, like profit making thing anymore. 1:23:26.240 --> 1:23:28.799 Like it's just it's just the sort of propaganda vanity 1:23:28.800 --> 1:23:31.280 outlet of a billionaire. And that's you know, that's probably 1:23:31.280 --> 1:23:33.840 what's going to happen to CBS, is that it's going 1:23:33.880 --> 1:23:36.400 to just get sort of annihilize, stripped down, because these 1:23:36.439 --> 1:23:39.800 people don't want a functioning media. They don't give a 1:23:39.840 --> 1:23:42.720 shit if these things actually work, because what they're trying 1:23:42.760 --> 1:23:46.400 to do right now is accumulate raw, accumulate just raw 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:49.479 power and attempt to do raw sort of narrative and 1:23:49.520 --> 1:23:51.880 media control in order to stay in power. And it's 1:23:51.880 --> 1:23:54.240 not working because everyone still hates them, even though they 1:23:54.240 --> 1:23:57.040 bought all the newspapers. Everyone is like, these people suck 1:23:57.600 --> 1:24:01.040 like but this is that we run into with unions 1:24:01.080 --> 1:24:02.360 off all the time, which is like, yeah, there are 1:24:02.360 --> 1:24:05.200 a lot of bosses who would rather their own company 1:24:05.240 --> 1:24:08.200 be non functional, you know, their workers have any voice 1:24:08.200 --> 1:24:11.200 in it. And especially now in this political moment in 1:24:11.240 --> 1:24:13.759 which oh, hey, look the fascists are trying to seize 1:24:13.760 --> 1:24:16.519 control of the media, that becomes increasingly more and more 1:24:17.400 --> 1:24:20.160 an option of just fuck it, We'll just like get 1:24:20.160 --> 1:24:24.960 handouts from like the tech fascists forever, and in exchange 1:24:25.000 --> 1:24:27.760 of that, will publish whatever propaganda garbage they want to 1:24:27.760 --> 1:24:28.200 spit out. 1:24:28.680 --> 1:24:32.760 Yeah, I mean, I would also say, like, I'm not 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:35.280 sure get about across the entire company. Although I believe 1:24:35.280 --> 1:24:37.080 it was one of the better traffic stories that Conde 1:24:37.200 --> 1:24:40.200 Nast all year, but one of the most certainly one 1:24:40.200 --> 1:24:42.120 of the most like trafficked teen Vogue stories in this 1:24:42.160 --> 1:24:44.519 past year, was like out of their politics section. It 1:24:44.600 --> 1:24:48.800 was the Vivian Wilson Elon Musk's transdaughter cover story, really 1:24:48.840 --> 1:24:51.240 really good, an amazing piece of journalism and also a 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:54.519 like super viral, and I'm sure made a ton of 1:24:54.520 --> 1:24:57.960 money for the company. Yeah, and so one would think, 1:24:58.040 --> 1:25:00.479 you know, looking at like the trends of the past, 1:25:00.600 --> 1:25:02.800 that if that was going to inform anything, like the 1:25:02.840 --> 1:25:06.760 company would actually say, like more politics coverage, like more 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:08.360 progressive coverage out of teen Vogue. 1:25:08.400 --> 1:25:11.320 Well, and like I remember, I don't have the exact 1:25:11.360 --> 1:25:13.080 numbers on me because I'm a hack and of fraud. 1:25:13.439 --> 1:25:14.920 But if it wasn't a hack and a fraud, I 1:25:14.960 --> 1:25:17.599 would have the exact numbers from the coverage of like 1:25:17.840 --> 1:25:20.960 the increase in both revenue generation and in like readership 1:25:21.200 --> 1:25:23.760 that teen Vogue underwent once they started doing politic stuff 1:25:23.760 --> 1:25:26.839 on at the first show administration, And now you're getting 1:25:27.040 --> 1:25:31.000 rid of that for what are clearly business reasons and 1:25:31.040 --> 1:25:33.679 are clearly, very very clearly not related to the fact 1:25:33.840 --> 1:25:35.879 that there is a bunch of a bunch of political 1:25:35.920 --> 1:25:38.519 pressure from a bunch of fascists to run the government. 1:25:38.560 --> 1:25:43.240 Now, Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't have like perfect 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:45.439 insight into like what's going on behind closed doors at 1:25:45.439 --> 1:25:46.680 Conde NASS, But I can't say that. 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:47.800 We had a diversity. 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:51.720 Committee meeting with our joint union management diversity committee a 1:25:51.760 --> 1:25:54.160 week before all of this went down, and they told 1:25:54.240 --> 1:25:56.719 us that they were you know, paraphrasing here, but management 1:25:56.720 --> 1:25:59.160 said that they are actively trying to avoid the attention 1:25:59.280 --> 1:26:02.000 and the eyre of the Trump administration, which at the 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:05.080 time definitely raised some eyebrows and I think led to 1:26:05.080 --> 1:26:08.200 the big response last week of like, m hm, oh, 1:26:08.360 --> 1:26:11.920 I actively avoid the attention of the Trump administration. You 1:26:12.000 --> 1:26:13.439 meant just like get rid of the parts of the 1:26:13.439 --> 1:26:16.320 company that are like, yeah, hostile towards it, and I 1:26:16.360 --> 1:26:19.880 mean kind of too like the good business of progressive coverage. 1:26:20.080 --> 1:26:21.600 I've covered a lot of beats in my time of 1:26:21.640 --> 1:26:23.479 bon Epetite, but there was a period where I was 1:26:23.520 --> 1:26:26.720 covering like the Starbucks Workers United fight pretty closely, a 1:26:26.760 --> 1:26:28.840 lot of articles about that in my back pocket. Those 1:26:28.880 --> 1:26:32.240 generally did really well. Actually, one of the first times 1:26:32.240 --> 1:26:35.639 I faced like big right wing backlash online was covering 1:26:35.760 --> 1:26:39.280 the like Dylan mulvaney bud Light protests, which I used 1:26:39.280 --> 1:26:42.000 as an opportunity to write about the the Corse Light 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:45.439 boycotts of like the West Coast queer worker movement and 1:26:45.479 --> 1:26:47.599 like kind of the birth of the gay labor movement. 1:26:47.880 --> 1:26:49.840 One of my best trafficked of all time stories I 1:26:49.880 --> 1:26:53.360 wrote about the like why the watermelon symbol became like 1:26:53.439 --> 1:26:55.360 such a big kind of like rally and cry and 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:58.559 like Palestine and organizing over the past few years. Again 1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:02.080 massive traffic winner for the company. But every time, you know, 1:27:02.120 --> 1:27:04.280 we get into these meetings with management or every time 1:27:04.280 --> 1:27:06.120 we like hear about the direction that the company is 1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:09.400 shifting or coverage is shifting, it always seems away from 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:11.439 those kind of hot button issues that like there's clearly 1:27:11.479 --> 1:27:15.880 an appetite for stories about and instead towards well whatever 1:27:15.920 --> 1:27:16.800 it's towards you know. 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:18.920 Yeah, and you know, and you can look at this 1:27:19.000 --> 1:27:20.840 like there's been a whole bunch of h There was 1:27:20.840 --> 1:27:24.400 a story recently about doctor Oz like pivoting his whole 1:27:24.439 --> 1:27:27.479 thing into doing like a right wing like media grift, and. 1:27:27.360 --> 1:27:30.559 Nobody's watching it. Like the the average episode of vicot 1:27:30.600 --> 1:27:34.080 appen here absolutely annihilates like just like like orders of 1:27:34.120 --> 1:27:37.360 magnitude better than like no, I think it was doctor Phil, 1:27:37.479 --> 1:27:40.040 Yeah it was doctor Phil. Who does that look there 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:43.240 they're like the same guy, like wow, that's that's slightly 1:27:43.320 --> 1:27:45.240 unfair to doctor oz. Well, yeah, doctor Philip did this 1:27:45.280 --> 1:27:47.080 like did the right wing pivot, and like nobody's listening 1:27:47.120 --> 1:27:48.160 to the show. It's like no one. 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:49.439 This is like one of the most famous people in 1:27:49.439 --> 1:27:52.439 the United States is getting annihilated by like Mia and 1:27:52.479 --> 1:27:53.840 the trendy crew like. 1:27:53.760 --> 1:27:55.200 You could happen here, Like. 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:01.960 Oh wow, you know, and yeah, like there is this 1:28:02.360 --> 1:28:05.879 like massive demand for this stuff as like people increasing 1:28:05.920 --> 1:28:07.840 me realize that, oh yeah, wait, hold on, we're getting 1:28:08.000 --> 1:28:11.599 every single person like in the country is like almost 1:28:11.640 --> 1:28:15.559 individually getting screwed over by the Trump administration. He's like 1:28:15.640 --> 1:28:18.680 individually micro targeting every single part of his base and 1:28:18.720 --> 1:28:20.759 pissing them off. Like there was a whole farmer soy 1:28:20.840 --> 1:28:23.200 thing right, and like he's like, I guess tend this 1:28:23.320 --> 1:28:25.080 negotiates to weybean sales now. But like you know, you 1:28:25.080 --> 1:28:25.519 can look at. 1:28:25.479 --> 1:28:27.600 Like so he was fighting this whole war with his 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:30.400 entire farming base and then he immediately turned around from 1:28:30.439 --> 1:28:32.519 there and went to fight the cattle ranchers. It's like 1:28:33.040 --> 1:28:35.559 there's so much appetite for any critique of this because 1:28:35.560 --> 1:28:41.240 it's so obviously just like malignant and narcissistically violent, and 1:28:41.520 --> 1:28:43.679 all of these companies that are like you know, like 1:28:43.680 --> 1:28:45.360 like this has always been the problem with the free 1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:46.720 press is that like the US does not have a 1:28:46.760 --> 1:28:48.519 free press. The US is a capitalist press, and so 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:52.400 you know, you can just buy them or apply enough 1:28:52.400 --> 1:28:54.400 political pressure and they will fall in line. 1:28:54.439 --> 1:28:57.960 And that's like what they're doing here. So what you're 1:28:58.000 --> 1:28:59.799 saying is we need a left wing Joe Rogam. 1:29:00.160 --> 1:29:02.800 I'm going to become the joker. 1:29:05.479 --> 1:29:06.240 Now, of course. 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:10.839 I mean I'll also say, like I became an organizer 1:29:10.880 --> 1:29:12.639 in the News Guild for a lot of reasons, right, 1:29:12.760 --> 1:29:14.799 Like on UPTU was my first job out of college, 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:18.960 and I was really involved covering the dining workers organizing 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:21.439 at my undergrad school. So that was like definitely my 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:23.640 introduction there. But at the same time, like when I 1:29:23.640 --> 1:29:27.120 got into the workplace, I kind of realized that media 1:29:27.200 --> 1:29:29.360 unions are maybe one of the only things that will 1:29:29.400 --> 1:29:33.639 keep the media at least as currently exists, alive until 1:29:33.640 --> 1:29:35.640 we can come up with like some other model that 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:38.760 is like more sustainable, because I mean, like I look 1:29:38.800 --> 1:29:41.320 at a company like Conde Nast and you have this 1:29:41.720 --> 1:29:47.680 like very well compensated very like large cast of managers 1:29:47.680 --> 1:29:51.200 and middle managers yep. And then you have this like 1:29:51.720 --> 1:29:55.120 massive body of people actually producing the magazines, actually making 1:29:55.439 --> 1:29:57.400 like doing the work of the journalism and the culture 1:29:57.439 --> 1:29:59.720 reporting and the video making and so on and so on. 1:30:00.280 --> 1:30:03.679 And you know, one of those groups is constantly subject 1:30:03.720 --> 1:30:05.720 to layoffs. One of those groups is constantly being made 1:30:05.760 --> 1:30:08.200 to say work over time and maybe being told not 1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:09.920 to build for as much over time as they're being 1:30:09.960 --> 1:30:13.280 made to work. And one of those groups is being 1:30:13.400 --> 1:30:17.120 extremely well compensated and has seemingly incredible job security. 1:30:17.360 --> 1:30:19.320 Yeah, Like all all of the resources are being sucked 1:30:19.320 --> 1:30:22.439 out by a combination of like these venture capitals dipshes 1:30:22.439 --> 1:30:23.840 at the top, and then all of these fucking like 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:27.040 middle mirrors, management bureaucrats like who do nothing right. 1:30:27.400 --> 1:30:29.519 And the thing that slows that down is like workers 1:30:29.560 --> 1:30:31.360 having a say in the media, you know, like the 1:30:31.360 --> 1:30:34.360 people who actually can produce the work, like being able 1:30:34.400 --> 1:30:36.400 to say and these are the circumstances under which the 1:30:36.400 --> 1:30:38.280 work is going to be produced. I mean, I think 1:30:38.280 --> 1:30:40.439 it's no surprise that, like if you look at a 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:43.320 publication like hell Gate or like Defector or like after 1:30:43.360 --> 1:30:44.840 Math and four or four, and all of these like 1:30:44.880 --> 1:30:47.000 worker co ops that are popping up kind of across 1:30:47.040 --> 1:30:50.240 the media ecosystem, like their worker owns and they have 1:30:50.320 --> 1:30:54.559 this very kind of flat like payment structure where everybody 1:30:54.600 --> 1:30:57.280 is making around the same amount, like everybody has a 1:30:57.360 --> 1:30:59.680 say in the way that the workplace functions, and like 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:02.080 these appear at least to me to be some of 1:31:02.120 --> 1:31:05.880 the most like stable media like organizations that are out 1:31:05.920 --> 1:31:08.559 there right now. And all that tells me is that 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:11.920 like workplace democracy, I mean in like the truest sense 1:31:11.960 --> 1:31:14.000 of the word, you know, like workplace democracy as it 1:31:14.040 --> 1:31:17.080 is earned by like worker organizations, union's work or co ops, 1:31:17.120 --> 1:31:19.160 whatever they might be, is the thing that's going to 1:31:19.200 --> 1:31:21.360 keep the media afloat. Like that is the model that 1:31:21.439 --> 1:31:24.320 is like sustainable in the long run. So I think 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:26.120 that's one of the reasons that having like a strong 1:31:26.160 --> 1:31:30.160 and active Conde Nasty union, though management probably wouldn't agree 1:31:30.560 --> 1:31:33.080 at least explicitly, is like one of the things that 1:31:33.080 --> 1:31:35.519 can keep Conde Nast alive for as long as possible. 1:31:36.439 --> 1:31:39.640 Like you know, again they would probably loath to admit this, 1:31:39.760 --> 1:31:42.400 but like an organization like the Conde Nasty Union can 1:31:42.439 --> 1:31:45.360 only exist as long as an organization like Conde Nast exists, 1:31:45.400 --> 1:31:47.479 their fates are kind of tied to one another. 1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:52.800 Well, okay, this is we're doing the incredibly esoteric via 1:31:52.920 --> 1:31:53.840 via union theory. 1:31:53.880 --> 1:31:55.599 There's two versions of looking at this one. 1:31:55.720 --> 1:31:58.200 Okay, this is the person where Yeah, the Kande Nast 1:31:58.280 --> 1:32:00.439 union is structurally dependent on the existence of Conde n 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:02.800 asked and this means that the power of the union 1:32:02.880 --> 1:32:04.360 is based on its ability to bring. 1:32:04.240 --> 1:32:06.679 People back to work. However, comp there is a second 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:10.160 one you could theoretically have. You could theoretically have the 1:32:10.240 --> 1:32:12.439 Conde Nass union without condiated ast. 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:16.439 We have CNT in it, we've taken it over, we're 1:32:16.479 --> 1:32:19.680 running it now. We are just now the union. And 1:32:19.800 --> 1:32:21.240 you know, and the thing the thing I will say 1:32:21.280 --> 1:32:22.960 about that, and this is always this has always been 1:32:23.000 --> 1:32:25.639 the advantage of co ops is that, like you are 1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:30.000 immediately from the ground up, you're going to have a 1:32:30.120 --> 1:32:32.960 kind of efficiency advantage because there is not an entire 1:32:33.160 --> 1:32:36.400 middle layer, like because obviously, like there are like producers 1:32:36.479 --> 1:32:38.719 who do a bunch of work, like my boss Sophie. 1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:40.320 Like, if if we didn't have Sophie, none of this 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:43.120 would work, right. Yeah, there's also a bunch of other 1:32:43.120 --> 1:32:46.720 people who have the same title who do nothing, and 1:32:46.760 --> 1:32:48.320 that's not even sue. If they did nothing, it would 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:50.559 be better. They interfere with everything constantly and get paying. 1:32:50.560 --> 1:32:52.599 They shortenary large amount of money to make everything work worse. 1:32:52.840 --> 1:32:56.679 And you don't have to have that entire like bureaucratic layer, 1:32:56.840 --> 1:32:59.120 like the layer of middle management. And this has always 1:32:59.320 --> 1:33:02.720 been a massive just efficiency advantage that you have when 1:33:02.760 --> 1:33:04.920 workers running their own shit, is that you don't have 1:33:05.000 --> 1:33:07.640 to have those people and the coordination that needs to 1:33:07.680 --> 1:33:08.040 be done. 1:33:08.080 --> 1:33:09.760 Okay, you have people doing the coordination. 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:13.800 You don't have fifteen layers of dipshits whose job it 1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:14.479 is to run. 1:33:14.360 --> 1:33:15.719 Around making your job harder. 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:19.679 This this has been me talking about the organizational advantages 1:33:19.680 --> 1:33:20.240 of anarchy. 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:24.080 It's great. I'm sorry, No. 1:33:24.160 --> 1:33:27.000 You're fine. I mean what I will say is, like, 1:33:27.840 --> 1:33:30.120 it's an interesting thing about Conde Nast and like a 1:33:30.120 --> 1:33:32.519 lot of I think these media conglomerates, it's like, you know, 1:33:32.600 --> 1:33:34.200 other than like when I am a member of the 1:33:34.280 --> 1:33:36.200 Conde Nasty union, and like I don't really interact with 1:33:36.240 --> 1:33:39.400 people who work elsewhere at Conde Nasket, Like, yeah, I 1:33:39.439 --> 1:33:41.640 interact with the people at my magazine and like the 1:33:41.680 --> 1:33:44.360 people at Bon Appetite and I like generally get along great. 1:33:44.479 --> 1:33:46.880 I have a really really awesome relationship with my manager. 1:33:46.920 --> 1:33:49.040 I have a lot of admiration for him and what 1:33:49.080 --> 1:33:50.680 he does. I think he's like the same way that 1:33:50.720 --> 1:33:52.200 you talk about Sophie. I think he's like really great 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:54.760 at his job. I like have a good relationship with 1:33:54.760 --> 1:33:56.280 our editor in chief. I have a lot of respect 1:33:56.280 --> 1:33:58.639 for her as well. We have a really really solid 1:33:58.680 --> 1:34:01.080 system going where we are like able to make this 1:34:01.120 --> 1:34:03.439 food magazine every month, and able to keep this website online, 1:34:03.439 --> 1:34:05.479 and able to make content that we're all like, you know, 1:34:05.600 --> 1:34:07.640 recipes and stories that we're all really really proud of. 1:34:08.080 --> 1:34:09.600 And then at the same time, we were kind of 1:34:09.600 --> 1:34:13.439 subject to this like kind of bigger whatever media machine 1:34:13.479 --> 1:34:16.040 that's like kind of moving around ahead or above us, 1:34:16.320 --> 1:34:18.320 and also moving around like again with just like so 1:34:18.479 --> 1:34:21.800 little transparency. Like yeah, going back to the action on 1:34:21.840 --> 1:34:25.519 Wednesday the fifth, we have tried to have meetings with Stan, 1:34:25.800 --> 1:34:28.080 Like the executive that we talked to in the hallway, 1:34:28.520 --> 1:34:30.800 the executive that we marched on. We have tried to 1:34:30.840 --> 1:34:33.519 have meetings with him so many times, in so many 1:34:33.560 --> 1:34:37.240 different ways. We have emailed him questions, not gotten responses. 1:34:37.479 --> 1:34:40.400 We have invited him to like town halls, not gotten responses, 1:34:40.439 --> 1:34:43.240 We invited him to meet with our diversity committee and 1:34:43.600 --> 1:34:45.960 labor relations got mad at us for se seeing him 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:46.559 on the email. 1:34:46.960 --> 1:34:47.400 God. 1:34:47.840 --> 1:34:50.240 Historically, like that kind of level of the company has 1:34:50.280 --> 1:34:53.320 been extremely averse to interacting with its workers to like 1:34:53.479 --> 1:34:56.680 answering basic questions. Which is why, like when you look 1:34:56.720 --> 1:34:59.080 at you know, there's a video out there of the interaction, 1:34:59.360 --> 1:35:02.080 Like this is why we have to march on our 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:04.560 bosses like this, because there's literally no other way to 1:35:04.600 --> 1:35:07.160 get a single answer out of them because they kind 1:35:07.160 --> 1:35:08.640 of I mean, they exist on this other floor of 1:35:08.640 --> 1:35:13.320 the company altogether. So I don't know, it's very frustrating. 1:35:13.360 --> 1:35:16.200 It's frustrating to like kind of exist in this dual 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:18.640 system of like, well, we have a magazine that we 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:21.360 are operating like very effectively on our own, and yet 1:35:21.360 --> 1:35:23.160 there's this entire thing above it that is making these 1:35:23.160 --> 1:35:25.760 decisions about how it ought to function and like what 1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:26.639 it ought to be doing. 1:35:26.760 --> 1:35:29.559 Yeah, and you don't know what it does because totally 1:35:29.680 --> 1:35:31.000 they're not there, Like they have. 1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:33.439 Absolutely no idea how your production actually functions. 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:36.040 I would be surprised if the man who fired me 1:35:36.200 --> 1:35:37.280 knew what my job was. 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:51.559 Yeah, no, absolutely not. All the old critiques of like 1:35:51.600 --> 1:35:53.479 the Soviet system were like, oh, there's just this out 1:35:53.479 --> 1:35:56.240 of touch bureaucraft three hundred miles away making production decisions, 1:35:56.200 --> 1:35:57.080 blah blah blah blah blah. 1:35:57.080 --> 1:35:59.200 It's like, oh, yeah, no, that's actually just like how 1:35:59.280 --> 1:36:03.599 your job works. Is some suit in like another building 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:07.000 is like, oh, your jobs are all replaceable. Oh you 1:36:07.040 --> 1:36:09.240 can you can do this with like twenty percent less staff. 1:36:09.280 --> 1:36:10.800 Oh I don't even know what you do, but we're 1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:14.439 firing you because we hate you specifically, Like it's just 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:17.719 terrible way for the world to run. 1:36:18.200 --> 1:36:21.280 Yeah, totally. And I mean we have like these models 1:36:21.320 --> 1:36:23.519 of like what successful workplaces can look like, you know, 1:36:23.640 --> 1:36:26.880 like places with militant unions that like actually work, like 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:29.000 actually give workers to say and what their conditions should 1:36:29.040 --> 1:36:31.360 be and what their conditions are, places that have gotten 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:33.280 rid of the boss altogether, and like you know, again 1:36:33.360 --> 1:36:35.360 those worker co ops that I listed, Like, there are 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:37.400 these functional models of what the future of media can 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:39.000 look like. And this is the thing that I say 1:36:39.040 --> 1:36:40.679 all the time. It's like the reason that I'm excited 1:36:40.680 --> 1:36:42.280 about being a member of the News Guild. The reason 1:36:42.280 --> 1:36:44.479 I got involved in organizing in the first place is, like, 1:36:44.880 --> 1:36:47.040 I think there is a future of media, Like I 1:36:47.080 --> 1:36:49.360 think there is a way that like, you know, people 1:36:49.400 --> 1:36:51.160 like you and people like me, like people who write 1:36:51.160 --> 1:36:53.639 and tell stories and like are interested in like talking 1:36:53.640 --> 1:36:55.920 to people and getting their stories out there. I think 1:36:55.920 --> 1:36:58.000 there are sustainable ways that we can do that. And 1:36:58.080 --> 1:36:59.880 I think the people who know how to do like 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:02.599 the sustainable future of this thing are the people who 1:37:02.600 --> 1:37:05.120 are making the product in the first place. Yeah, Like 1:37:05.439 --> 1:37:07.040 we are the ones with vision, Like we are the 1:37:07.040 --> 1:37:09.519 ones who know how to make something that can continue 1:37:09.520 --> 1:37:12.200 to exist sustainably, something that can like even under the 1:37:12.200 --> 1:37:14.760 capitalist like framework, like something that can make money, something 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:17.120 that can be profitable. A lot of the great journalists 1:37:17.200 --> 1:37:20.080 I know are like actually very interested in and very 1:37:20.200 --> 1:37:22.560 very good at making work that like generates quite a 1:37:22.600 --> 1:37:24.760 bit of revenue. And I don't think that's a particularly 1:37:24.840 --> 1:37:26.600 bad thing. Like they know how to do this in 1:37:26.600 --> 1:37:28.120 a way that is sustainable, in a way that like 1:37:28.240 --> 1:37:30.960 keeps readers excited and engaged in like willing to like 1:37:31.040 --> 1:37:33.920 pitch in their own ways. The problem is that the 1:37:33.920 --> 1:37:35.880 people who seem to have that know how the people 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:37.519 who make the thing and the people who know how 1:37:37.560 --> 1:37:39.599 to keep making the thing and the people who are 1:37:39.600 --> 1:37:41.920 making the decisions like aren't the same people. 1:37:42.360 --> 1:37:42.559 Yeah. 1:37:42.800 --> 1:37:45.200 And the way that you fix that divide, like is 1:37:45.240 --> 1:37:47.519 by demanding a seat at the table, is by demanding 1:37:47.520 --> 1:37:49.840 the people who like are making those decisions actually do 1:37:49.960 --> 1:37:52.439 listen to you, and then demanding that they actually follow 1:37:52.479 --> 1:37:54.200 through on the obligation or the things that they say 1:37:54.200 --> 1:37:56.320 they're going to do. One of the really frustrating things 1:37:56.320 --> 1:37:58.800 about my termination is like they're saying that I was 1:37:58.840 --> 1:38:03.400 like too aggressive eve and was harassing the chief people officer. Again, 1:38:03.439 --> 1:38:06.160 there's a video I think is extremely exonerating. 1:38:07.479 --> 1:38:10.240 Also, oh wow, the trends woman's being too aggressive? 1:38:10.400 --> 1:38:13.600 Wow, I know how crazy. 1:38:14.120 --> 1:38:16.879 One day they're going to develop a second joke. Wow 1:38:17.000 --> 1:38:17.519 any day. 1:38:17.520 --> 1:38:23.000 Now, No, I know. Actually, one thing, some like Chud 1:38:23.040 --> 1:38:24.720 on the internet who was like trying to make fun 1:38:24.720 --> 1:38:26.519 of me, said I was wearing a wig. I would 1:38:26.560 --> 1:38:28.800 like to stay for the record, I don't wear a wig. 1:38:28.920 --> 1:38:32.320 This is my hair. I grew it myself. It took 1:38:32.360 --> 1:38:36.840 a while, thank you. I agree. Although one of my 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:39.040 friends told me that I have her fangs. The other day, 1:38:39.080 --> 1:38:41.800 which I really actually it was the day that I 1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:46.320 got fired, come to think of it, before they knew 1:38:46.439 --> 1:38:55.600 to be fair. But no, I know, sorry, what was 1:38:55.640 --> 1:38:56.320 I saying before that? 1:38:57.000 --> 1:38:59.439 I The last time I got owned that hard was 1:38:59.520 --> 1:39:01.080 my bob hold me a talking head? 1:39:01.439 --> 1:39:04.240 So you know, it happens some Sometimes you get absolutely obliterated. 1:39:04.560 --> 1:39:09.000 But I love that band, nice good band. 1:39:09.560 --> 1:39:12.320 But if the company like actually believed that I was, 1:39:12.360 --> 1:39:14.880 you know, being too aggressive or like committing, I think 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:17.240 the words that they use are like grossness conduct, Like 1:39:17.800 --> 1:39:20.719 I know, we have just caused protections in our contract 1:39:20.840 --> 1:39:23.760 that include like an explicit procedure that you're supposed to 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:26.839 go through for gross miss conduct, Like if the company 1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:29.559 was following the contract, if they like felt the obligation 1:39:29.640 --> 1:39:31.960 to do so, what should have happened is they shouldn't 1:39:31.960 --> 1:39:33.599 have let me finished the rest of my workday. Instead, 1:39:33.600 --> 1:39:35.760 I should have been escorted out of the building by security. 1:39:36.360 --> 1:39:38.160 I should have been placed on a leave. There should 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.559 have been an investigation with like time for me and 1:39:40.640 --> 1:39:42.640 the union to comment, and then a decision should have 1:39:42.720 --> 1:39:45.000 came out. And the entire time that should have been happening, 1:39:45.160 --> 1:39:48.799 I should have been paid and like if that sounds greedy, Okay, 1:39:48.920 --> 1:39:50.880 the company agreed to it, like they didn't have to 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:53.960 sign the contract, but they did. But this is another 1:39:54.000 --> 1:39:56.040 like concerning trend that we're seeing right now with like 1:39:56.160 --> 1:39:58.720 you know, the gutted NLRB and like the kind of yeah, 1:39:59.000 --> 1:40:02.920 you know, shirking of like responsibilities from companies is like 1:40:03.400 --> 1:40:06.160 companies are like straight up gas lighting workers not things 1:40:06.200 --> 1:40:08.519 that are in the contracts that they agreed to. They 1:40:08.560 --> 1:40:10.920 are like pointing to the contract and saying that it 1:40:11.000 --> 1:40:13.280 says things that it doesn't say, or that it doesn't 1:40:13.320 --> 1:40:15.080 say things that are like right there for you and 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:18.320 clearing English stripe before your eyes. Actually, another time that 1:40:18.320 --> 1:40:20.960 we tried to talk to Stan this year was so 1:40:21.040 --> 1:40:22.840 we were based out of New York. Predominantly we have 1:40:22.880 --> 1:40:25.640 remote workers across the country. Although we were told just 1:40:25.640 --> 1:40:27.920 about everybody at the company to start coming into the 1:40:27.960 --> 1:40:30.360 New York offices four days a week. There's a section 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:33.360 of our contract that says that under a declared state 1:40:33.400 --> 1:40:36.640 of emergency, workers can stay home. Well, this summer in 1:40:36.640 --> 1:40:40.000 New York, listeners may remember, we had a really massive, 1:40:40.160 --> 1:40:42.680 like terrible heat wave, like temperatures up in the one 1:40:42.720 --> 1:40:45.800 hundreds every day, like going into the subway stations, and 1:40:45.840 --> 1:40:48.559 that week, I remember feeling like I was baking during 1:40:48.640 --> 1:40:51.920 the declared state of emergency, which again the contract says 1:40:51.960 --> 1:40:54.200 workers do not have to come into the office. The 1:40:54.240 --> 1:40:56.360 company said, we don't care, you have to come into 1:40:56.400 --> 1:40:59.519 the office. Paraphrasing those aren't they are exact words that 1:40:59.560 --> 1:41:02.800 they're not too far off. And again we said, okay, 1:41:02.800 --> 1:41:05.200 but the contract says under a declared state of emergency, 1:41:05.439 --> 1:41:07.439 we don't have to come into the office, And they 1:41:07.479 --> 1:41:09.840 said you have to come into the office four days 1:41:09.840 --> 1:41:12.640 a week, no exceptions. And it is maddening. 1:41:12.720 --> 1:41:15.559 I mean, yeah, that's life threatening, Like oh. 1:41:15.439 --> 1:41:17.720 I mean yeah, absolutely, And I will say, like, you know, 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:19.800 I've been at the company five years. That makes me 1:41:19.840 --> 1:41:21.479 a bit of a long hauler, Like we have people 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:24.000 who have been at the company for like fifteen twenty years. 1:41:24.000 --> 1:41:26.400 Like there are people who are like near retirement age 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.920 who standing on a subway platform. Again it's New York City. 1:41:28.960 --> 1:41:31.759 People aren't really in air conditioned cars driving to work. 1:41:31.840 --> 1:41:34.559 Like there are people for whom, like at all ages, 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:37.000 standing on a subway platform in that kind of heat 1:41:37.120 --> 1:41:39.680 is a really life threatening and like really dangerous thing 1:41:39.720 --> 1:41:42.240 to demand people do, yeah, which is like one of 1:41:42.280 --> 1:41:44.240 the things that we were thinking about when we like 1:41:44.439 --> 1:41:46.840 fought for that contract language, and like one of the 1:41:46.880 --> 1:41:48.599 things that we were thinking about when we were like 1:41:48.760 --> 1:41:50.720 nearly ready, like in fact that we were ready to 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:53.360 go on strike and like disrupt the met gala in 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:55.680 May of twenty twenty four. Like that is one of 1:41:55.680 --> 1:41:57.680 the things that we were thinking about when we drafted that, 1:41:57.720 --> 1:41:59.479 and one of the things we were really excited that 1:41:59.520 --> 1:42:01.839 the company agreed to give us when we want our contract, 1:42:02.120 --> 1:42:04.920 and so for them to immediately just say, oh, just kidding, well, 1:42:05.280 --> 1:42:07.320 oh well now if we file agreevance, it might take 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:10.320 like months directify. Well just kidding, those rights that we 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:13.120 gave you, they don't exist anymore. Sorry. And again it's 1:42:13.240 --> 1:42:18.000 like clear, easy to understand language that they are somehow 1:42:18.040 --> 1:42:20.280 willing to just say like the contract doesn't say what 1:42:20.320 --> 1:42:20.719 it says. 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:23.160 It's It's interesting because I mean, you know, there's like, 1:42:23.160 --> 1:42:24.720 on the one hand, like companies have always like not 1:42:24.800 --> 1:42:26.800 followed contracts, and it's always been like, Okay, if you 1:42:26.800 --> 1:42:28.479 want your contract to do what it says it does, 1:42:28.560 --> 1:42:29.560 you have to force them to do it. But on 1:42:29.560 --> 1:42:31.720 the other hand, like the thing that it reminds me 1:42:31.760 --> 1:42:33.879 of is like one of things happened with the TRUP administration. 1:42:33.880 --> 1:42:36.000 Whenever we're talking about them pissing off their bases, there's 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:39.040 been a bunch of unions that they've just you knulaterally 1:42:39.080 --> 1:42:41.280 been this is said, this is national security. We don't 1:42:41.280 --> 1:42:44.439 recognize your contract anymore. So for example, like the the 1:42:44.560 --> 1:42:46.320 funny version of is they do this at a prison 1:42:46.320 --> 1:42:48.760 guard union, which is hilarious. 1:42:49.760 --> 1:42:52.040 It's like, yeah, I don't know you guys. You guys 1:42:52.080 --> 1:42:52.920 chat in your own bed. 1:42:53.000 --> 1:42:55.000 Now you have to lie in it, like I don't 1:42:55.000 --> 1:42:56.200 know what to tell you, but like yeah, but like 1:42:56.280 --> 1:42:58.360 you know, the national government has been doing this to 1:42:58.400 --> 1:42:59.080 a bunch of unions. 1:42:59.200 --> 1:43:00.920 They've just been going, I know that we don't have 1:43:00.920 --> 1:43:02.400 to follow this contract. Any work is national. 1:43:02.280 --> 1:43:06.240 Security, and that's the future that all of these people 1:43:06.320 --> 1:43:08.479 want and that they're like, you know, this is part 1:43:08.479 --> 1:43:09.240 of what they're fighting for. 1:43:09.360 --> 1:43:10.800 This is part of that fight. 1:43:10.920 --> 1:43:13.240 Is that they want to fight where contract union contracts 1:43:13.280 --> 1:43:14.840 don't exist and they could just do whatever they want 1:43:14.840 --> 1:43:15.360 to anyone. 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:17.680 I mean, there's also like a clear line you can 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:20.320 draw from say like like the Reagan era and the 1:43:20.400 --> 1:43:23.000 like air traffic controller union strike break and then like 1:43:23.320 --> 1:43:26.040 the way that from like the federal government unions, and 1:43:26.080 --> 1:43:28.559 like the way that the federal government treats its unions. 1:43:28.560 --> 1:43:31.519 That like basically the rest of the American labor movement 1:43:31.520 --> 1:43:34.280 and rather the management side responses to the American labor 1:43:34.280 --> 1:43:35.320 movement generally flow. 1:43:35.560 --> 1:43:38.600 Yeah, yeah, is there anything else that you want to 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:39.960 make sure that people know? 1:43:40.800 --> 1:43:43.360 Well, I mean, in the coming days and weeks, the 1:43:43.439 --> 1:43:46.479 union is planning a lot to fight back against the company. 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:51.040 Oh yeah, that said, one of the things that we 1:43:51.120 --> 1:43:55.599 know most about media organizations generally is that they are 1:43:55.800 --> 1:43:58.120 very concerned about public pressure and they are very concerned 1:43:58.120 --> 1:44:01.559 about public image. This is like ap are obsessed industry 1:44:01.600 --> 1:44:04.240 for better and for worse. So we are hoping that 1:44:04.320 --> 1:44:06.840 like readers and you know, fans and followers will keep 1:44:06.840 --> 1:44:10.280 the pressure up against Conde Nast to show like employers 1:44:10.320 --> 1:44:12.320 like them that like, we will not stand for this. 1:44:12.960 --> 1:44:15.320 We have an Action Network petition up right now that 1:44:15.360 --> 1:44:17.880 we are going to keep collecting signatures for that we 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:20.680 hope to deliver to management soon depending on onence it 1:44:20.680 --> 1:44:23.280 comes out. I mean, we'll be collecting signatures regardless. And 1:44:23.320 --> 1:44:25.400 that is also one of the best ways signing on 1:44:25.439 --> 1:44:27.600 to that will get you updates for other ways that 1:44:27.640 --> 1:44:30.840 you can you know, support us from the outside. But otherwise, 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:33.080 I mean, we've got a lot of fighting to do, 1:44:33.120 --> 1:44:36.439 We've got a lot of organizing to do. I certainly 1:44:36.600 --> 1:44:40.280 don't think my days at Conde Nast are over. I 1:44:40.320 --> 1:44:43.040 expect that, like however long it takes for the law 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:46.360 of shakeout, like I hope to be reinstated, as do 1:44:46.439 --> 1:44:50.639 the other like three terminated employees. I also am certain 1:44:50.840 --> 1:44:52.760 that like we will be able to win justice for 1:44:52.800 --> 1:44:56.600 ourselves and the other people who were like illegally retaliatorially 1:44:56.640 --> 1:44:59.800 disciplined following the action. And I also think that this 1:44:59.880 --> 1:45:02.360 is nowhere near the last action that Conde Nast upper 1:45:02.360 --> 1:45:06.000 management should expect. If anything like this is just showing 1:45:06.040 --> 1:45:07.839 us that if we want our contract to be enforced, 1:45:07.880 --> 1:45:09.640 if we want the rights that they said that they 1:45:09.640 --> 1:45:11.639 would give us, we are going to have to keep 1:45:11.640 --> 1:45:13.160 holding them to account, and we are going to have 1:45:13.200 --> 1:45:14.640 to keep fighting for them. 1:45:14.680 --> 1:45:16.320 Trying to figure out whether or not I can get 1:45:16.320 --> 1:45:18.040 away with saying you have sown the wind and now 1:45:18.439 --> 1:45:19.080 the whirlwind. 1:45:19.400 --> 1:45:29.040 Oh God, you have sown the bond appetite, and now 1:45:29.040 --> 1:45:30.840 you will get the I can't finish that. 1:45:33.640 --> 1:45:36.479 You've sewed the butt appetite. Now you'll get teen votes too. 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:40.240 You have sown the bond, and now you'll get the appetite. 1:45:43.560 --> 1:45:45.680 That doesn't mean anything, that's not anything. 1:45:45.320 --> 1:45:45.599 You know. 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:52.479 Look, it's a struggling time for the whole industry. Yeah, 1:45:52.520 --> 1:45:54.200 And if people want to find you, do you want 1:45:54.240 --> 1:45:54.759 to be found? 1:45:54.800 --> 1:45:55.120 A and B. 1:45:55.200 --> 1:45:56.720 If people want to find you, where can they find 1:45:56.720 --> 1:45:57.120 your work? 1:45:57.280 --> 1:45:57.479 Yeah? 1:45:57.560 --> 1:46:03.520 Totally. I plan to keep writing and doing journalism for 1:46:03.560 --> 1:46:06.280 the however long I can allowed to keep doing that. 1:46:07.160 --> 1:46:11.439 So I'm on basically every website as at Goodbye Alma, 1:46:12.160 --> 1:46:16.200 including the Evil Ones sadly. I also I co edit 1:46:16.280 --> 1:46:20.080 a literary magazine with my friend Joyce that's called Picnic Magazine. 1:46:20.680 --> 1:46:23.640 It's very cool. It's all work by trans contributors. We 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:28.080 are predominantly a print first publication. You can find us 1:46:28.360 --> 1:46:31.160 at Picnic mag on Instagram. We're also on Blue Sky. 1:46:31.960 --> 1:46:33.920 I should have prepared our at but I'm sure I 1:46:33.920 --> 1:46:35.200 can send that to you afterwards. 1:46:35.280 --> 1:46:36.560 Yeah, well we'll put it in that, we'll put it 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:38.280 in the station and yeah. 1:46:38.320 --> 1:46:41.120 We are available in a few bookstores in big cities 1:46:41.120 --> 1:46:43.639 across the country. We also have a you can download 1:46:43.640 --> 1:46:45.360 our pdf and a pay what you want kind of way. 1:46:45.640 --> 1:46:48.000 We have a second issue coming soon. Although it turns 1:46:48.000 --> 1:46:50.200 out making a magazine with just two trans women it's 1:46:50.280 --> 1:46:55.720 really difficult. So yeah, check that out. It's all fiction, criticism, 1:46:55.720 --> 1:46:58.840 and poetry by trans contributors. And yeah, follow me at 1:46:58.880 --> 1:47:00.680 Goodbye Alma Online. 1:47:01.360 --> 1:47:02.479 Yeah yeah. 1:47:02.560 --> 1:47:04.920 And if you want actual news that's fit to print, 1:47:04.920 --> 1:47:08.360 you're going to have to fight for it, Amanda, that's 1:47:08.439 --> 1:47:08.760 us there. 1:47:24.520 --> 1:47:25.000 Hello everyone. 1:47:25.120 --> 1:47:27.600 My name is Dana al Kurd and this is it 1:47:27.600 --> 1:47:32.240 could happen here. I'm a professor and researcher of Arab 1:47:32.400 --> 1:47:36.360 and Pastadian politics and a senior non resident Fellow at 1:47:36.360 --> 1:47:40.200 the Arab Center Washington. Today we're joined by Shaddin Sekai, 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:43.400 a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara. 1:47:43.960 --> 1:47:47.599 Her book Men of Capital, Scarcity and Economy in Mandate 1:47:47.640 --> 1:47:53.599 Palestine explores economy, territory, the home, the body, and she's 1:47:53.640 --> 1:47:57.360 also editor in chief of the Journal of Palestine Studies. Today, 1:47:57.439 --> 1:48:00.520 I wanted to invite Shadin on to discuss the importance 1:48:00.680 --> 1:48:07.360 of Palestinian knowledge production and Palestinian spaces for writing, researching, analyzing, etc. 1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:10.360 So yeah, Shdan, thank you so much for coming. 1:48:10.080 --> 1:48:11.680 On, Thank you for having me. 1:48:12.760 --> 1:48:15.680 So let's maybe start with a very basic question, what 1:48:15.800 --> 1:48:17.640 is the Journal of Palestine Studies? Could you give us 1:48:17.720 --> 1:48:18.519 kind of an overview? 1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:23.400 Sure? So, the Journal of Palestine Studies is the flagship 1:48:23.640 --> 1:48:29.040 journal of Palestinian studies in the English language. It was 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:33.759 established in nineteen seventy one, so that makes it fifty 1:48:34.000 --> 1:48:38.439 four years old. First it was part of the then 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:41.320 Bay Route based and still Bay Route based Institute for 1:48:41.400 --> 1:48:48.360 Palestine Studies and Kuwait University, which sponsored what was understood 1:48:48.360 --> 1:48:52.000 at the time as an international forum to discuss all 1:48:52.120 --> 1:48:55.720 aspects of the Palestine question and the Arab Zionist conflict. 1:48:56.280 --> 1:48:59.559 And really the people who established it were looking for 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:05.320 shaping a space that could discuss these matters freely. And 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:08.400 the story of the founders is a really interesting one 1:49:08.479 --> 1:49:16.520 because they were people like Hisham Cherobi, Walidlidi, Brandoshani Fuatzauf, 1:49:17.360 --> 1:49:23.200 and Konstantine Zrich, who actually was the person who coined 1:49:23.840 --> 1:49:27.639 the way that we name the nekba in his book 1:49:27.960 --> 1:49:30.280 Man and Nekba that he wrote in nineteen forty eight, 1:49:30.320 --> 1:49:34.040 in which he coined this term the catastrophe to think 1:49:34.080 --> 1:49:38.000 about nineteen forty eight, which would you know be our 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:41.920 ongoing condition. And I think the way to think about 1:49:41.960 --> 1:49:44.920 these people in there, in the way that they began 1:49:45.040 --> 1:49:50.320 their journal is to think about them as really confronting 1:49:50.560 --> 1:49:56.800 a landscape of erasure, denial, and urgency and occupying this 1:49:56.920 --> 1:50:01.400 kind of steady, incessant pain of the original inception of 1:50:01.439 --> 1:50:04.240 the Nekba when you know, think about it in nineteen 1:50:04.360 --> 1:50:08.840 seventy one, it was not that long before a decade 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:12.480 and a half, yeah, right, And I think what's important 1:50:12.520 --> 1:50:15.840 about you know, in the last couple of years, people 1:50:15.960 --> 1:50:20.519 have been kind of making demands about Palestinian studies as 1:50:20.600 --> 1:50:23.320 part of you know, some of the student movements and 1:50:23.360 --> 1:50:26.320 the staff and faculty movements, and I think it's really 1:50:26.360 --> 1:50:30.080 important for people to know that this comes from a 1:50:30.160 --> 1:50:35.800 much longer tradition of the production of knowledge as a 1:50:35.880 --> 1:50:38.760 real insistence on existence. 1:50:39.640 --> 1:50:45.960 Absolutely Palestinians have been producing knowledge about their state of affairs, 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:51.040 you know, just like today academics and gaza are producing knowledge, right, 1:50:51.960 --> 1:50:56.559 And I'm always like struck by how just ahead of 1:50:56.560 --> 1:50:58.800 its time, you know, the general Palistine studies is like 1:50:58.840 --> 1:51:01.880 a lot of our understanding of the conflict that are 1:51:01.920 --> 1:51:06.000 now finally starting to seep into the mainstream were first 1:51:06.040 --> 1:51:09.719 discussed in these pages. Some of the research findings about 1:51:09.720 --> 1:51:13.320 the history were first articulated in these pages. And so 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:16.680 that kind of knowledge production is just it is a 1:51:16.720 --> 1:51:19.800 form of resistance to erasure. 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:22.639 Absolutely and just you know, some of those would be 1:51:22.720 --> 1:51:27.120 for example, Plandalit, which was the you know, the plan 1:51:27.439 --> 1:51:31.519 which would lead to the destruction of four hundred and 1:51:31.560 --> 1:51:35.680 fifty to five hundred and thirty seven Palestinian villages. And 1:51:35.840 --> 1:51:41.800 this plan would come to be recognized through the work 1:51:42.000 --> 1:51:47.000 of Benny Morris as a Israeli historian who had access 1:51:47.000 --> 1:51:51.200 to Israeli documents, but it's actually was Walid Realidi who 1:51:51.240 --> 1:51:57.320 had been evidencing and showing the empirical foundations of Plan Dalit, 1:51:57.439 --> 1:51:59.800 and it was in the Journal of Palestine Studies that 1:51:59.800 --> 1:52:04.960 he publish those findings. In that case, I think that again, 1:52:05.160 --> 1:52:10.439 for people who are really engaging the movement for free 1:52:10.479 --> 1:52:15.160 Palestine and free Palestinians, we really have to be approaching 1:52:15.680 --> 1:52:21.000 the political economy of who gets to speak and whose 1:52:21.080 --> 1:52:25.960 knowledge production is uplifted as legitimate and worthy. And I 1:52:26.000 --> 1:52:29.320 think you see a lot of this kind of centering 1:52:30.080 --> 1:52:33.840 of Israeli voices, and I think we really have to 1:52:34.680 --> 1:52:38.639 in this moment. It's urgent to center Palestinian knowledge production. 1:52:39.400 --> 1:52:42.280 Yeah, there's just so many ways that we witness this 1:52:42.400 --> 1:52:46.320 all the time that it's not something worthy of discussion 1:52:46.640 --> 1:52:49.599 unless it Israeli a voice says it, and there's an 1:52:49.600 --> 1:52:53.559 inherent suspicion about the Palestinian scholar, the Palestinian analyst, the 1:52:53.560 --> 1:52:58.439 Palestinian knowledge producer of some kind. Now, of course, the 1:52:58.479 --> 1:53:03.839 last two years have been upheaval, the genocide and Gauza, 1:53:04.439 --> 1:53:08.360 a tragedy that we honestly we haven't really absorbed and 1:53:09.960 --> 1:53:13.080 possibly can't. And we've seen in the last two years 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:19.919 a concerted effort to erase Palestinians further from the American Academy, 1:53:19.960 --> 1:53:23.680 but from also like scholarship generally speaking. But before I 1:53:23.720 --> 1:53:26.479 get into that, I wondered if you could kind of 1:53:26.960 --> 1:53:30.920 give your impression of what did doing Palestenian studies look 1:53:31.080 --> 1:53:37.240 like before October seventh? How was it easy? Was it acceptable? 1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:39.640 I mean, I know the answers, but I'd like you 1:53:39.680 --> 1:53:40.160 to say. 1:53:39.960 --> 1:53:42.680 Though, so, I think one of the things that's been 1:53:42.800 --> 1:53:47.040 interesting to observe, and I would date this as happening 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:53.520 around COVID when our colleagues and various disciplines started confronting 1:53:53.560 --> 1:53:57.000 the reality of their archives closing. So I'm a historian, 1:53:57.439 --> 1:54:00.360 so I speak from that place. You know, people who 1:54:00.360 --> 1:54:03.640 study Europe, people who study the United States, kind of 1:54:03.760 --> 1:54:08.960 confronting the reality that they might not access archives that 1:54:08.960 --> 1:54:14.960 they are accustomed accessing, and in a similar way, facing 1:54:15.080 --> 1:54:21.479 the kind of targeting and surveillance, the bipartisan targeting and 1:54:21.520 --> 1:54:27.640 surveillance of academic knowledge production, and trying to explain to 1:54:27.760 --> 1:54:31.000 people this is what we've existed under all along. 1:54:31.880 --> 1:54:32.080 Now. 1:54:32.120 --> 1:54:37.240 I think there are similarities across communities of knowledge production. 1:54:37.400 --> 1:54:40.840 So I think people who work in black studies, who 1:54:40.920 --> 1:54:44.000 work in indigenous studies, who work in queer studies, gender 1:54:44.040 --> 1:54:48.120 and sexuality have also been under the dress of surveillance 1:54:48.600 --> 1:54:51.600 and targeting. I think for those of us who have 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:56.120 been doing Palestinian studies, what does it mean, especially if 1:54:56.160 --> 1:55:00.040 you're a Palestinian doing it, but whoever you are, It 1:55:00.160 --> 1:55:02.960 means you have to show up ten times more ready 1:55:03.000 --> 1:55:08.240 than anybody else. It means you have to conduct yourself 1:55:08.280 --> 1:55:11.680 as if you are always being recorded, right. It means 1:55:11.760 --> 1:55:14.880 that every single word that you say you should be 1:55:15.000 --> 1:55:17.600 able to stand up for in a court of law, 1:55:18.120 --> 1:55:23.080 and all of those kinds of restrictions. Actually, you know, 1:55:23.320 --> 1:55:25.960 you give us lemons. We're going to make lemonade because 1:55:26.320 --> 1:55:32.080 those restrictions have imposed on us a kind of rigor. 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:46.080 That is the least that we can do. It also means, 1:55:46.240 --> 1:55:50.040 I mean, I think for a lot of us, yourself included, right. 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:54.400 I was just somebody was interviewing me yesterday about, oh, 1:55:53.800 --> 1:55:58.320 have you faced harassment or censorship or something? And I think, 1:55:58.840 --> 1:56:03.400 at least in my case, I'm I'm constantly, you know, 1:56:03.680 --> 1:56:06.800 experiencing these things and just kind of swallowing it, do 1:56:06.800 --> 1:56:09.840 you know what I mean, just getting along with the 1:56:09.880 --> 1:56:11.200 business of the every day. 1:56:11.760 --> 1:56:12.960 So, you know, there was. 1:56:12.880 --> 1:56:17.440 This moment back in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen where, for 1:56:17.560 --> 1:56:22.480 whatever reason, every couple of months, one of the bots 1:56:22.560 --> 1:56:27.120 of one of these surveillance websites would start highlighting me 1:56:27.800 --> 1:56:34.800 and insulting me on Twitter, you know, liable calling me names, 1:56:34.920 --> 1:56:40.680 going after how I look like really vulgar, misgendering me, 1:56:41.480 --> 1:56:45.280 that kind of thing. And I'd come out of my lecture, 1:56:45.680 --> 1:56:49.080 you know, and you know, I teach big classes, and 1:56:49.160 --> 1:56:51.880 I'd come out of a big, you know, two hundred 1:56:51.920 --> 1:56:55.680 and fifty percent lecture, which requires so much focus and 1:56:55.880 --> 1:57:00.360 energy and being present and you know that adrenaline. And 1:57:00.360 --> 1:57:03.520 I'd look at my phone and I'd have fifty notifications 1:57:03.560 --> 1:57:07.160 and it would just be one insult after another. And 1:57:07.200 --> 1:57:07.800 that's just. 1:57:08.600 --> 1:57:09.360 Part of the job. 1:57:09.840 --> 1:57:14.040 Yeah, And that's just how it's been, right, like, you know, 1:57:14.200 --> 1:57:17.280 from the beginning, at least of my graduate career, and 1:57:17.400 --> 1:57:21.200 I started grad school. You know, September eleven happened when 1:57:21.240 --> 1:57:22.560 I was in grad school, and I was in New 1:57:22.640 --> 1:57:29.240 York when it happened. And you know, we've been under surveillance, 1:57:29.320 --> 1:57:32.920 we've been named, we've been watched as part of what 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:35.960 we do, as you said, And in fact, I got 1:57:35.960 --> 1:57:39.920 my masters at the Center for Contemporary Studies and they 1:57:40.040 --> 1:57:45.000 wrote a book back in the eighties about the surveillance 1:57:45.120 --> 1:57:48.360 and I think it's called They Dare to Speak, well, right, right, yeah, 1:57:48.400 --> 1:57:54.800 these early accounts of the concerted attempt to silence us. 1:57:54.840 --> 1:57:57.520 And so what I like to remind people is at 1:57:57.520 --> 1:57:59.400 this moment, you know, you said, oh, they're trying to 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:03.200 erase Palestinian scholarship. I mean, at least they're trying to 1:58:03.240 --> 1:58:07.400 erase the voices who are putting forward a critical take 1:58:07.960 --> 1:58:14.000 on Israeli sellar colonialism and genocide. And I think what 1:58:14.040 --> 1:58:16.440 I like to remind people is that there is way 1:58:16.480 --> 1:58:18.680 more of us now than there's ever been before. 1:58:18.880 --> 1:58:19.720 Yeah, good point. 1:58:20.200 --> 1:58:23.360 Ten years ago, people like you and me wouldn't have 1:58:23.480 --> 1:58:26.160 jobs in the academy. It may be in a couple 1:58:26.200 --> 1:58:29.120 of years we won't have jobs, but I don't know, 1:58:29.480 --> 1:58:31.920 Like I'm not I don't want to sit on our 1:58:32.000 --> 1:58:35.280 laurels and think, oh, okay, we arrived. In any case, 1:58:35.360 --> 1:58:39.840 the whole concept of arrival and career arrival at this 1:58:40.040 --> 1:58:43.480 moment has completely changed for me. I don't know how 1:58:43.480 --> 1:58:46.160 it is for you, But the effect of the genocide 1:58:46.200 --> 1:58:50.040 has made it so that the bankruptcy of the institutions 1:58:50.120 --> 1:58:56.160 we work for, the rapid ways in which they're engaging 1:58:56.240 --> 1:59:01.040 with obedience and authoritarianism. Yep. Yeah, it's like what we've 1:59:01.080 --> 1:59:03.920 worked for our whole careers. It's like, well, I don't 1:59:04.080 --> 1:59:06.280 think this makes sense actually, do you know? 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:06.800 Right? 1:59:07.640 --> 1:59:10.000 So I would say it's been like that all along. 1:59:10.520 --> 1:59:13.960 People even sitting to you things like oh there, what 1:59:14.000 --> 1:59:15.920 do you mean you study Palestine? 1:59:16.200 --> 1:59:17.400 You know, like what is that? 1:59:18.040 --> 1:59:18.600 Yeah? 1:59:19.120 --> 1:59:22.400 So yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm in a different discipline, 1:59:22.880 --> 1:59:26.720 but certainly it was. I remember as a student hungry 1:59:26.800 --> 1:59:29.880 for information. I mean, it was rare to find something 1:59:29.880 --> 1:59:33.720 about the Middle East to be taught, let alone Palestine. 1:59:34.560 --> 1:59:39.520 The level to which they delegitimized Arab and Palestinian sources 1:59:40.480 --> 1:59:45.000 or questions of importance to Palestinians and Arabs normatively speaking, 1:59:45.000 --> 1:59:49.240 politically speaking, also theoretically speaking, I mean, I mean, I 1:59:49.240 --> 1:59:51.840 can tell you so many stories, Like every person who's 1:59:51.840 --> 1:59:53.920 ever wanted to study Palestine, especially as you said, if 1:59:53.960 --> 1:59:57.200 you are Palestinian, is discouraged from it and is told 1:59:57.240 --> 2:00:00.760 not to, is told this doesn't fit, is told. You know, 2:00:00.880 --> 2:00:04.320 I'm in political science. The theories don't account for Palestine. 2:00:04.680 --> 2:00:07.960 It's just outside of space and time and theory, and 2:00:08.440 --> 2:00:10.920 you can't account for it, you can't discuss it. And 2:00:11.160 --> 2:00:14.360 the harassment, the harassment campaigns all of us have been facing, 2:00:15.120 --> 2:00:18.440 I mean, it's it takes such a mental and emotional toll, 2:00:18.520 --> 2:00:21.760 and yet we produce, and yet we get tenure, and 2:00:21.840 --> 2:00:25.680 yet we teach our classes, and we're excellent in our teaching, 2:00:26.080 --> 2:00:28.520 and our students love us and want to learn. But 2:00:29.280 --> 2:00:32.440 you know, as you said, like it really has exposed 2:00:32.440 --> 2:00:36.240 the degree to which these universities because they have been 2:00:36.720 --> 2:00:39.280 well one like we are in America, but also because 2:00:39.280 --> 2:00:42.080 they have been so divorced from their actual missions. Like 2:00:42.600 --> 2:00:46.480 how meaningless the space this has now become. But that's 2:00:46.480 --> 2:00:48.640 like on the harassment and like kind of these kinds 2:00:48.640 --> 2:00:52.080 of obstacle side. I also think like people don't recognize 2:00:52.760 --> 2:00:56.600 like the resources that are needed to teach and study 2:00:56.720 --> 2:01:01.880 and research Palestine that other people in the academy, other 2:01:02.000 --> 2:01:06.080 knowledge producers get very easily. And it's there is so 2:01:06.320 --> 2:01:10.200 little for people who study Palestine, and of course that 2:01:10.280 --> 2:01:13.200 impacts what kind of academics are able to do this 2:01:13.360 --> 2:01:17.360 and how many people we even missing from this discussion, right, 2:01:18.040 --> 2:01:20.000 I agree with you that has been the condition before 2:01:20.000 --> 2:01:23.360 October seventh. I think now after October seventh, that after 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:25.880 they have attempted to use Palestine as kind of a 2:01:26.520 --> 2:01:31.080 cudgel to attack the higher education generally, like now people 2:01:31.120 --> 2:01:34.440 are recognizing it maybe more, but that has always definitely 2:01:34.520 --> 2:01:35.040 been the case. 2:01:35.360 --> 2:01:35.520 Oh. 2:01:35.560 --> 2:01:40.160 Also, I just wanted to remind listeners and bring it up, 2:01:40.560 --> 2:01:44.720 Like I remember Barry Weiss who is now the head 2:01:44.760 --> 2:01:48.120 of CBS. I mean she made her claim to fame 2:01:48.600 --> 2:01:52.879 attacking Arab and Palestinian professors in Colombia as an undergrad, 2:01:53.920 --> 2:01:55.400 and that's seen us totally valid. 2:01:56.120 --> 2:02:00.520 Yeah, no, I mean I think, you know, Palestine has cugel. 2:02:00.840 --> 2:02:03.800 And also, you know, I've been saying this for a while, 2:02:03.800 --> 2:02:07.000 Palestine is paradigm, right. You know, if you look at 2:02:07.000 --> 2:02:12.000 the memdenuine, I think it reveals also kind of what 2:02:12.160 --> 2:02:17.560 Palestine also stands for, which is the way that both 2:02:17.920 --> 2:02:22.760 the Democratic and the Republican Party have really no link 2:02:22.840 --> 2:02:27.240 to the popular realities on the ground, right, and that 2:02:27.440 --> 2:02:31.520 in effect, you know, part of the Trump base was 2:02:31.560 --> 2:02:37.920 really responding to this disparity, right, this lack of investment 2:02:38.040 --> 2:02:41.640 and in the political system. And I think, you know 2:02:41.720 --> 2:02:45.560 that for me was the I don't have hope in 2:02:45.600 --> 2:02:48.960 electoral politics. And you know, I don't want to be 2:02:49.000 --> 2:02:52.520 cynical or anything, but I think what the memdnni wind 2:02:52.600 --> 2:02:57.880 shows us is that people are disgruntled and they're sick 2:02:58.080 --> 2:03:04.200 of the kind of extractive billionaire class doing what they 2:03:04.280 --> 2:03:06.400 want to do at the expense of the rest of us. 2:03:06.520 --> 2:03:10.440 And I think the media is really complicit in all 2:03:10.480 --> 2:03:16.120 of this, absolutely complicit in the genocide. It's been absolutely 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:20.000 complicit since the you know, war on Iraq, since the 2:03:20.040 --> 2:03:27.960 Second War on Iraq, in rendering news as entertainment, you know, 2:03:28.520 --> 2:03:31.280 And and it's like you could see the freak out 2:03:31.320 --> 2:03:36.400 that people had, the media had about mem Denny across 2:03:36.440 --> 2:03:38.879 the board. It wasn't just the Fox News. 2:03:38.760 --> 2:03:40.440 No New York Times, everybody. 2:03:40.560 --> 2:03:44.440 Yeah, and all of the you know television media too. 2:03:44.560 --> 2:03:48.040 So it's just I think it's I think there's also 2:03:48.160 --> 2:03:50.720 a link to higher education in that way, because I 2:03:50.760 --> 2:03:55.040 think there has been an investment in making people stupid. 2:03:55.040 --> 2:03:58.600 Right, Yes, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, absolutely, 2:03:58.640 --> 2:04:00.760 I mean that's exactly what I was going to say. 2:04:00.800 --> 2:04:06.240 Is the Palestinian issue and Palestine studies and research and 2:04:06.280 --> 2:04:09.720 knowledge production, the fact that there exists the few Palestinians 2:04:09.760 --> 2:04:13.920 in higher education has been used to attack higher education. 2:04:14.080 --> 2:04:16.520 But it's not really about Palestine. I mean, it is 2:04:16.520 --> 2:04:18.080 a little bit about palasaide. Of course these people are 2:04:18.080 --> 2:04:23.240 anti Palstinian, but it's about preventing social mobility. So you're saying, like, 2:04:23.520 --> 2:04:26.640 there's all this disgruntlement in the public space. Our students 2:04:26.680 --> 2:04:30.560 are disgruntled. They want to learn, They've been promised something 2:04:30.560 --> 2:04:33.880 with this college education, and you know, even the slight 2:04:33.960 --> 2:04:36.480 bit of social mobility that has existed as a result 2:04:36.520 --> 2:04:39.640 of higher education is too much for the Trump administration. Yeah, 2:04:39.720 --> 2:04:42.520 it's too much for this right wing. So Palestine is 2:04:42.520 --> 2:04:45.160 a class issue, absolutely. 2:04:44.680 --> 2:04:49.040 No, it absolutely is. You know, are as are all 2:04:49.120 --> 2:04:52.080 of the kind of struggles we stand on solidarity with. 2:04:52.240 --> 2:04:56.640 You know, it's like, really it is intersectional. And we 2:04:56.720 --> 2:05:00.200 didn't need Trump to teach us that. But that's the 2:05:00.320 --> 2:05:03.360 lesson that keeps being delivered time and again. And one 2:05:03.400 --> 2:05:06.040 of the things that's really struck me, and this has 2:05:06.120 --> 2:05:09.920 been the case for the last ten years, eleven years, 2:05:09.960 --> 2:05:12.160 long before Trump, and I think one of the challenges 2:05:12.200 --> 2:05:17.680 we face today is not to overdetermine the Trump administration 2:05:17.960 --> 2:05:21.080 as the site of all of the catastrophes that we're 2:05:21.120 --> 2:05:23.120 in today. And one of the things I've noted for 2:05:23.160 --> 2:05:26.240 the last fourteen years is I don't have to teach 2:05:26.280 --> 2:05:30.760 students that history isn't about things always getting better. That's 2:05:30.760 --> 2:05:34.600 not a lesson. They need to know. They understand that 2:05:34.800 --> 2:05:40.400 teleology and the fallacy of advancement is a lie. They 2:05:40.480 --> 2:05:43.440 understand that because they live it, as you say, you know, 2:05:43.480 --> 2:05:46.000 they're in debt, especially those of us who teach at 2:05:46.040 --> 2:05:49.640 public universities. You know, most of our students are indebted. 2:05:50.120 --> 2:05:52.840 A lot of them have two or three jobs. They're 2:05:52.920 --> 2:05:56.840 housing insecure, their food insecure. They don't have a clear 2:05:56.960 --> 2:05:57.960 vision of the future. 2:05:58.760 --> 2:06:02.440 And if they protest side, they're labeled antisemitic. Yeah, their 2:06:02.520 --> 2:06:06.160 university's cracked down on them, they're docsed. I mean, it's 2:06:06.200 --> 2:06:07.040 so outrageous. 2:06:07.680 --> 2:06:11.240 Obviously, I don't need to tell you their identification with 2:06:11.320 --> 2:06:15.440 Palestine is also about their own experiences with repression, of course, 2:06:15.800 --> 2:06:20.080 So I think that's the that really is the momentum 2:06:20.120 --> 2:06:24.880 you know that we're witnessing. Is is that kind of identification? Yeah? 2:06:24.920 --> 2:06:39.200 Absolutely. I think it's important for listeners to know some 2:06:39.320 --> 2:06:42.360 of the contours of what has happened after October seventh, 2:06:42.680 --> 2:06:44.280 And like you said, it's not a Trump thing, it 2:06:44.360 --> 2:06:47.800 started under Biden. About how Palestine has been used in 2:06:47.840 --> 2:06:50.080 the academy, I mean, as I said earlier, I have 2:06:50.240 --> 2:06:52.800 done an episode on this, so I will link that. 2:06:53.520 --> 2:06:56.520 But also you know, there is now evidence and data 2:06:56.840 --> 2:07:00.640 around how this issue has been weaponized. So the AAUP, 2:07:01.000 --> 2:07:03.760 the American Association of University Professors, alongside the Middle Ease 2:07:03.760 --> 2:07:06.680 Studies Association, just put out a report on this exact 2:07:06.760 --> 2:07:11.000 question about how titles six investigations, so investigations of alleged 2:07:11.240 --> 2:07:15.440 discrimination specifically about anti semitism and nothing else. First of all, 2:07:15.440 --> 2:07:17.280 there's been a huge uptick in them and have been 2:07:17.400 --> 2:07:21.440 used to target these universities. Vast majority of these cases 2:07:21.440 --> 2:07:25.280 has to do with faculty extra mural speech, so like 2:07:25.600 --> 2:07:30.200 these faculty members having an opinion about genocide outside the classroom. 2:07:30.480 --> 2:07:32.960 I mean, honestly, I always remember I think Edward Side said, 2:07:33.000 --> 2:07:36.240 like being a Palestinian academy is like being an outlaw. 2:07:37.280 --> 2:07:39.440 That's like how it feels. That's how it feels. 2:07:39.680 --> 2:07:44.040 Yeah, it's fugitive labor for sure. Yeah, definitely, And I 2:07:44.040 --> 2:07:47.840 think one of the findings has been also, I don't 2:07:47.880 --> 2:07:50.840 know if it's ninety five percent of the cases have 2:07:51.000 --> 2:07:54.520 been shown to be be fraudulent. Yeah, it'd be totally fraudulent. 2:07:54.680 --> 2:07:58.560 So yeah, it's a real policing of speech. It's a 2:07:58.640 --> 2:08:04.800 real kind of weaponization of the charge of anti semitism, 2:08:05.360 --> 2:08:08.320 And honestly, sort of one of the things I think 2:08:08.320 --> 2:08:11.240 that really happens too, is that students don't get the 2:08:11.360 --> 2:08:17.080 tools to actually recognize and understand actually existing anti semitism, 2:08:17.400 --> 2:08:21.600 right as it is being rehearsed in like these show 2:08:21.640 --> 2:08:25.440 trials that we saw in Congress, and these in the 2:08:25.520 --> 2:08:30.800 rhetoric of many of the people affiliated with the administration, 2:08:31.680 --> 2:08:35.520 in the kinds of alliances that even the Israeli state 2:08:35.760 --> 2:08:41.560 right has made with various right wing anti Semitic states. 2:08:41.640 --> 2:08:45.440 So it's like, I think one of the things that 2:08:46.400 --> 2:08:50.480 it's kind of like watching a train wreck, just hitting 2:08:50.760 --> 2:08:54.040 one train after another and just being like, what is 2:08:54.080 --> 2:08:59.320 this absurdity? You know, I myself was accused of being 2:08:59.360 --> 2:09:04.160 anti semi for having a history of anti Semitism. So 2:09:05.000 --> 2:09:10.240 what surprises me is the way that people are allowing 2:09:10.280 --> 2:09:13.480 and facilitating this to happen, you know, and the way 2:09:13.560 --> 2:09:17.880 that they're not able to recognize how high the stakes 2:09:17.920 --> 2:09:21.040 are what it means to be a Palestinian in this moment. 2:09:21.760 --> 2:09:25.800 You know, when you've been sitting watching for two years 2:09:25.880 --> 2:09:29.720 your people being shredded and you're facing the reality of 2:09:29.800 --> 2:09:31.800 what the stakes are in this moment, which is the 2:09:31.880 --> 2:09:38.240 annihilation of Palestine and the annihilation of Palestinians, your threshold 2:09:38.600 --> 2:09:45.200 for a shock becomes very high. And so I mean, 2:09:45.400 --> 2:09:47.760 I'm sure it's the same for you. I don't know 2:09:47.840 --> 2:09:53.280 if like what. It's like a constant trauma response. You know, absolutely, yeah, 2:09:53.720 --> 2:09:58.200 they're My emotional reactions are shut down, and I'm in 2:09:58.280 --> 2:10:02.080 a state of being in the present. Okay, we got 2:10:02.120 --> 2:10:05.920 through today, Hopefully we'll get through tomorrow. I don't I 2:10:06.440 --> 2:10:09.760 kind of am prepared for the worst at all times. 2:10:10.160 --> 2:10:14.640 And you know, it's a condition of vigilance that I 2:10:14.680 --> 2:10:19.720 think people when they continue to feed this kind of 2:10:20.200 --> 2:10:24.560 right wing agenda of making people stupid and eroding even 2:10:24.600 --> 2:10:29.240 the possibility of higher education, it's the kind of condition 2:10:29.400 --> 2:10:32.720 that will be much more general, you know. Yeah, and 2:10:32.840 --> 2:10:35.480 all these ice rates at the same time. You know, 2:10:35.880 --> 2:10:38.320 it's I just saw I haven't been able to listen 2:10:38.320 --> 2:10:42.440 to it. But a scholar who powerfully is talking about 2:10:42.560 --> 2:10:47.440 the Mexico Palestine border and the and the links between 2:10:47.520 --> 2:10:50.480 ice and the idea and the and the ways to 2:10:50.520 --> 2:10:52.800 think about these two things together. 2:10:52.600 --> 2:10:56.240 And please share that with me. I haven't seen it. 2:10:56.680 --> 2:11:00.120 I mean, yeah, as you said, when we take away 2:11:00.360 --> 2:11:03.720 Palestine from the Academy, when we use Palestine to attack 2:11:03.760 --> 2:11:07.200 the academy. As imperfect as the Academy is, it is 2:11:07.320 --> 2:11:13.120 this larger attempt to take away people's analytical tools and 2:11:13.280 --> 2:11:17.720 frameworks to understanding their reality, to understanding how their reality 2:11:17.720 --> 2:11:20.800 intersects with these other things, because they don't want you 2:11:20.880 --> 2:11:23.520 to be able to solve it. They don't want you 2:11:23.560 --> 2:11:26.400 to be able to mobilize. And then of course there's this, 2:11:26.560 --> 2:11:29.200 as I said, this class dimension of wanting to keep 2:11:29.200 --> 2:11:31.320 people in their place. There are too many black and 2:11:31.320 --> 2:11:33.600 brown people in the academy. Now we can't have that 2:11:33.680 --> 2:11:36.440 kind of social mobility. I just want to emphasize for 2:11:36.520 --> 2:11:41.240 the listeners why it's so important for Palestine to be 2:11:41.320 --> 2:11:43.200 researched and studied and things like that is self evident. 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:44.560 I don't need to explain it. But why is it 2:11:44.640 --> 2:11:48.000 so important that Palestinians are the ones who do that? 2:11:48.560 --> 2:11:51.000 I mean, again, it feels self evident, but I'll say 2:11:51.040 --> 2:11:56.440 it like, Palestinians have agency, and they are full human beings, 2:11:56.800 --> 2:12:00.520 and they know best what questions are relevant, and they 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:04.080 have a unique perspective on the issue of Palestine as 2:12:04.080 --> 2:12:08.280 well as other issues. And so not only are you 2:12:08.560 --> 2:12:11.000 engaging in the rature of Palestinians when you don't amplify 2:12:11.280 --> 2:12:16.080 that kind of knowledge production, but you are making scholarship poorer. 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:22.040 You are limiting what you know about this issue. Yeah, 2:12:22.080 --> 2:12:28.280 so what do you think, you know, kind of broadly speaking, students, scholars, sympathizers, 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:30.040 what do you think they should do in this moment. 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:33.280 I want to just go back to the point about 2:12:33.320 --> 2:12:36.919 why is it important to have to sure Palestinian voices, 2:12:37.000 --> 2:12:39.800 Because when we say that, we're not doing it in 2:12:39.840 --> 2:12:44.120 an identitarian way, right of course, Yeah, anybody who wants 2:12:44.120 --> 2:12:48.080 to study Palestine should study Palestine. In doing so, you 2:12:48.280 --> 2:12:52.360 should be centering the lessons that Palestinians have offered us 2:12:52.440 --> 2:12:56.280 first and foremost in this moment, the Palestinians of the 2:12:56.320 --> 2:12:59.200 Gaza strip and in my own practice at the Journal 2:12:59.720 --> 2:13:01.680 of philos Steine Studies. What I've tried to do in 2:13:01.680 --> 2:13:05.040 each of the editor's notes is really lift up all 2:13:05.080 --> 2:13:09.560 of the testimonies that we've received from Palestinians in Gaza, 2:13:10.480 --> 2:13:13.320 written and social media and all of these, but also 2:13:13.400 --> 2:13:19.080 lift up the international voices of Palestinians like yourself and 2:13:18.680 --> 2:13:22.720 many many people who are writing and giving us tools 2:13:22.720 --> 2:13:26.680 to understand and analyze. And the reason that's important is 2:13:26.800 --> 2:13:31.360 because the main problem that we face, I believe, is 2:13:31.400 --> 2:13:35.880 the way that certain people are more susceptible to being 2:13:36.000 --> 2:13:40.280 excluded from the category of the human. Once you exclude 2:13:40.280 --> 2:13:43.680 people from the category of the human, it's much easier 2:13:44.200 --> 2:13:47.640 to kill them and make them expendable. And I think 2:13:47.800 --> 2:13:54.080 our work really in centering Palestinian voices rejects that logic, right, 2:13:54.240 --> 2:13:57.840 rejects the logic of are we human or not? Are 2:13:57.880 --> 2:14:00.160 we going to evidence our humanity or not? You know, 2:14:00.200 --> 2:14:03.680 we tell our stories, and I think that telling of 2:14:03.760 --> 2:14:07.800 the story changes the angle of vision. If you're looking 2:14:07.880 --> 2:14:12.240 at what's happening in the Gaza strip from the perspective 2:14:12.400 --> 2:14:15.000 of people who are living it, you will see different 2:14:15.040 --> 2:14:19.800 things then if you're looking at it from you know, 2:14:20.600 --> 2:14:25.280 a drone or you know, a geopolitical lens. So that's 2:14:25.320 --> 2:14:25.800 one thing. 2:14:25.880 --> 2:14:26.200 I think. 2:14:26.240 --> 2:14:30.120 Another thing that's really important is you know, I mean 2:14:30.800 --> 2:14:34.200 Mahma Dwish said this actually in an interview in journal 2:14:34.280 --> 2:14:39.280 Pasteine Studies. He said, you know, the Palestinians are talked 2:14:39.320 --> 2:14:46.000 about because they're facing Israeli Jews, because the Jewish question. 2:14:45.800 --> 2:14:48.520 Is the question of Europe. Oh that's right, yeah. 2:14:48.800 --> 2:14:52.000 And I find that one of the things that continues 2:14:52.080 --> 2:14:57.200 to be an issue until now is that what scholars 2:14:57.240 --> 2:15:01.320 and thinkers and analysts are judicating is the question of 2:15:01.360 --> 2:15:06.919 Europe and the question of the sustainability of European values 2:15:06.960 --> 2:15:10.800 and European notions and all of these things. And I'm 2:15:10.840 --> 2:15:13.720 not interested in that. I want to center the question 2:15:13.760 --> 2:15:18.400 of Palestine and what kind of other tools that might 2:15:18.480 --> 2:15:22.000 offer us. So, I think, in a way link to 2:15:22.800 --> 2:15:26.400 what the earlier conversation about a political economy of value 2:15:26.480 --> 2:15:30.840 of scholars, right, there's a kind of also here a 2:15:30.840 --> 2:15:35.200 political economy of concepts. And I believe that we have 2:15:35.360 --> 2:15:41.000 to really provincialize Europe. We have to provincialize Europe as 2:15:41.480 --> 2:15:44.360 the means and the ends of all things. It is 2:15:44.400 --> 2:15:48.440 not generalizable. No, just ask different questions and look at 2:15:48.480 --> 2:15:52.040 it from a different perspective in terms of what do 2:15:52.120 --> 2:15:55.840 I think students and scholars and all of us should do. 2:15:56.760 --> 2:16:02.839 Is it's going to sound strange, but first and foremost study, read, learn, 2:16:03.800 --> 2:16:08.800 Those are the critical tools that you gain that will 2:16:08.840 --> 2:16:12.920 allow you to defend yourself in a world that is intent. 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:13.919 On making you stupid. 2:16:14.640 --> 2:16:17.720 We all have to reject that. I think there it's 2:16:17.760 --> 2:16:23.560 a moment where there's a temptation to slide into sensationalism 2:16:24.080 --> 2:16:28.680 or to slide into circulating, especially on social media and 2:16:28.680 --> 2:16:31.160 that whole economy. Right, So I think we have to 2:16:31.200 --> 2:16:34.520 be vigilant. I think we have to be rigorous, and 2:16:34.600 --> 2:16:37.199 I think we have to study. And I think more 2:16:37.280 --> 2:16:40.760 than anything else, the lesson I keep coming back to 2:16:41.400 --> 2:16:43.200 is we have to take care of each other in 2:16:43.240 --> 2:16:44.760 the communities that we build. 2:16:46.360 --> 2:16:50.880 Yeah, that's exactly right. I think you begin arming yourself 2:16:51.320 --> 2:16:55.920 with the tools to understand this moment and think of 2:16:56.720 --> 2:16:59.760 ways to defend yourself in your community. And you can't 2:16:59.760 --> 2:17:03.480 do it that without being grounded in this knowledge that came 2:17:03.680 --> 2:17:07.680 before you. So listeners, please crack open a Journal of 2:17:07.720 --> 2:17:11.400 Palestine Studies, and of course I'll link to all of 2:17:11.440 --> 2:17:13.880 this in the in the show notes. Siday and I 2:17:13.879 --> 2:17:15.840 could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much 2:17:15.879 --> 2:17:17.720 for your time. This has been really interesting. 2:17:17.879 --> 2:17:20.920 Thank you so much for having me and for all 2:17:20.920 --> 2:17:21.840 the work that you do. 2:17:22.760 --> 2:17:25.879 Thank you so much, listeners. I'm going to also put 2:17:25.959 --> 2:17:29.600 in the show notes a fundraising campaign for the Journal 2:17:29.640 --> 2:17:33.439 of filesTime Studies. So if you can, you have the capacity, 2:17:33.879 --> 2:17:37.879 it's a sure fire away to help resist these dynamics. 2:17:37.959 --> 2:17:39.520 All right, thanks so much, Take care. 2:17:57.800 --> 2:18:00.880 This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly 2:18:00.920 --> 2:18:03.320 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling 2:18:03.320 --> 2:18:06.199 world and what this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis 2:18:06.240 --> 2:18:09.560 today am joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. 2:18:10.040 --> 2:18:14.880 This episode recovering the week of November thirteenth to November nineteenth. 2:18:15.240 --> 2:18:18.080 The biggest news I think of this whole week. Jd 2:18:18.240 --> 2:18:21.200 Vance has been sentenced to two years in prison for 2:18:21.280 --> 2:18:25.199 threatening Donald Trump and jd Vance. This is, of course 2:18:25.560 --> 2:18:31.320 James Donald Vance Junior different jd Vance, a sixty seven 2:18:31.400 --> 2:18:33.199 year old man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. 2:18:33.360 --> 2:18:36.200 Second. Jd Vance has hit the Discourse. 2:18:36.160 --> 2:18:40.920 Who's also named Donald, which is phenomenal, amazing, It's amazing. 2:18:42.160 --> 2:18:44.200 Who plead a guilty to three criminal accounts based on 2:18:44.240 --> 2:18:47.640 the social media posts about killing the President, the Vice President, 2:18:47.720 --> 2:18:49.280 Elon Musk and Trump Junior. 2:18:49.680 --> 2:18:51.880 Jeez yeah, don a good cod Garrison. 2:18:51.920 --> 2:18:54.200 I would quibble that that is the biggest story this 2:18:54.280 --> 2:18:57.240 week because this is the week of cause that Nicki 2:18:57.320 --> 2:18:59.840 Minaj addressed the United Nation. 2:19:00.640 --> 2:19:02.160 This is a week where years happened. 2:19:02.920 --> 2:19:03.879 Ye Nicki Minaj. 2:19:03.920 --> 2:19:06.320 If readers are familiar with her, it will doubtless be 2:19:06.320 --> 2:19:10.000 because of her contributions to Discourse on her cousin's friends testicles. 2:19:10.800 --> 2:19:14.320 But this time she's back and she is talking about 2:19:14.320 --> 2:19:15.360 the person's baby. 2:19:15.520 --> 2:19:17.720 Yeah, that's what we do here. 2:19:18.840 --> 2:19:21.960 She's talking about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria. Just 2:19:22.520 --> 2:19:25.560 for listener to another way. Nicki Minaj is from Trinidad. 2:19:26.200 --> 2:19:26.920 Yeah not. 2:19:26.920 --> 2:19:29.160 Don't worry if any particular expertise or insight she has 2:19:29.240 --> 2:19:29.760 on a topic. 2:19:30.800 --> 2:19:33.039 But yeah, she she did that this week. 2:19:33.400 --> 2:19:34.800 Yep, at the United Nations. 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:37.840 How did do we know? How she decided that this 2:19:38.000 --> 2:19:40.160 was a problem she needed to get involved. 2:19:40.360 --> 2:19:44.920 She reposted a truth that Donald Trump had made great 2:19:45.000 --> 2:19:47.240 and I've had a great start. I believe they reached 2:19:47.280 --> 2:19:50.879 out on the basis of that. There's some tremendous like 2:19:50.959 --> 2:19:56.640 statements calling her the greatest female recording artist in history. Yeah, yeah, 2:19:56.920 --> 2:19:59.360 which sets us up nicely for a Nicki Minaj Dolly 2:19:59.440 --> 2:20:00.760 part in beef. 2:20:01.000 --> 2:20:01.240 Yeah. 2:20:01.360 --> 2:20:03.600 I think I joined on the side of Dolly Potton 2:20:03.640 --> 2:20:04.240 in that one. 2:20:04.400 --> 2:20:06.200 It would be hard not to, yep. 2:20:06.680 --> 2:20:09.320 So yeah, I guess she She reposted a thing about 2:20:09.360 --> 2:20:11.800 a truth that led to him reaching out, and she 2:20:13.000 --> 2:20:17.520 volunteered her time to address the United Nations. Organizations set 2:20:17.600 --> 2:20:20.720 up after Wood what to to try and prevent genocides. 2:20:21.680 --> 2:20:23.039 Yeah, outstanding. 2:20:24.320 --> 2:20:29.320 The truth is so beautiful. Yes, speaking of the truth 2:20:29.680 --> 2:20:34.039 and the truth coming to light, we're talking about Jeffrey 2:20:34.040 --> 2:20:35.440 Epstein again, I guess. 2:20:35.520 --> 2:20:39.480 Yeah. The ongoing revelations based on j He's this guy's 2:20:39.520 --> 2:20:42.039 post depth career has really been one for the books. 2:20:42.959 --> 2:20:46.320 Yeah, he really really rivals Michael Jackson in more than 2:20:46.360 --> 2:20:46.760 one way. 2:20:47.000 --> 2:20:49.959 Yeah, or Tupac, I would I would say Tupac. 2:20:51.240 --> 2:20:51.280 No. 2:20:51.440 --> 2:20:54.800 There it was when when fucking John McAfee died, there 2:20:54.800 --> 2:20:57.200 were all these people being like, oh, he's got you know, 2:20:57.320 --> 2:20:59.680 because his McAfee had lied and said, I've got like 2:20:59.760 --> 2:21:02.240 an insurance folder that'll come out in the event of 2:21:02.280 --> 2:21:05.440 my death that'll, you know, reveal a bunch of top 2:21:05.520 --> 2:21:07.720 level secrets. And John McAfee didn't know shit. 2:21:08.560 --> 2:21:08.920 He was. 2:21:09.360 --> 2:21:11.800 He was a crazy old drug addict who killed his 2:21:11.920 --> 2:21:17.520 nephew and then fled to South America or Central America anyway, whatever, 2:21:17.600 --> 2:21:19.680 one of the America's one of the part He fled 2:21:19.720 --> 2:21:21.560 to a different America than the one that he came 2:21:21.600 --> 2:21:24.560 from anyway. But that's actually happening with Jeffrey Epstein. We 2:21:24.840 --> 2:21:27.120 actually now have a lot of dirt on a lot 2:21:27.120 --> 2:21:30.840 of people. Larry Summers just left the board of Open 2:21:30.879 --> 2:21:34.920 AI because he was revealed as a rampant misogynist and 2:21:35.000 --> 2:21:38.040 friend of a pedophile sex trafficker. Not a good look. 2:21:38.120 --> 2:21:42.119 He's also announced that, after finishing his current class at Harvard, 2:21:42.160 --> 2:21:44.560 he will be resigning from Harvard University. 2:21:45.240 --> 2:21:46.840 What a loss for Harvard. I don't know how they're 2:21:46.840 --> 2:21:47.240 gonna run. 2:21:47.240 --> 2:21:51.080 Well, it's the biggest los since President Gay. Yeah. 2:21:51.120 --> 2:21:54.640 Look, Harvard, if you need someone to teach his class, 2:21:54.879 --> 2:21:56.640 I'll do it. I don't know what his class is. 2:21:56.840 --> 2:22:02.280 I don't actually know what Larry does, what his expertise is, 2:22:02.440 --> 2:22:03.880 but I feel like I could do a better job. 2:22:03.959 --> 2:22:04.880 Yeah, bring me in. 2:22:05.000 --> 2:22:06.640 We do know a little bit about what Larry does 2:22:06.640 --> 2:22:07.920 in that is the problem. 2:22:08.040 --> 2:22:08.200 Yeah. 2:22:10.160 --> 2:22:16.120 Yeah, the sex crimes right after recording Executive Disorder last week. 2:22:16.879 --> 2:22:22.440 Not the most important, but certainly the oddest. Email was 2:22:22.879 --> 2:22:26.800 uncovered as a part of that big document's release. This 2:22:26.840 --> 2:22:32.520 is an exchange from twenty eighteen between Mark Epstein and 2:22:32.920 --> 2:22:38.640 Jeffrey Epstein to brothers. Let's start with Mark, how are 2:22:38.680 --> 2:22:41.119 you doing? A while back? You mentioned that you were 2:22:41.160 --> 2:22:44.480 pre diabetic. Has anything changed with that? What is your 2:22:44.640 --> 2:22:50.080 boy Donald up to now? Jeffrey replies, all good, Bannon 2:22:50.240 --> 2:22:55.640 with me. Mark replies, ask him if Putin has the 2:22:55.640 --> 2:23:02.120 photos of Trump blowing Bubba. You know, yeah, I'm going 2:23:02.200 --> 2:23:09.800 to continue the exchange, yeah, because, Jeffrey replies, and I 2:23:09.840 --> 2:23:15.200 thought I had terrists. Mark replies, you and your boy 2:23:15.480 --> 2:23:19.160 Donnie can make a remake of the movie Get Hard 2:23:20.000 --> 2:23:21.760 sent via tin Can and a string. 2:23:22.560 --> 2:23:23.120 Oh god. 2:23:23.440 --> 2:23:27.200 Jeffrey replied, you mean Donnie T And Mark replied, I'd 2:23:27.320 --> 2:23:30.680 rather be in Donnie D's shoes. That's the exchange. 2:23:30.720 --> 2:23:33.480 Also, what Epstein said was was sires, which is a 2:23:33.600 --> 2:23:36.840 Yiddish word that means like problems, like I got I 2:23:36.879 --> 2:23:39.640 got problems, I got shit, I'm a I'm all fucked up, 2:23:39.680 --> 2:23:46.000 which he was. He was not wrong about that. 2:23:46.080 --> 2:23:53.040 Look, Yeah, so Bubba. Many people have speculated that this 2:23:53.080 --> 2:23:57.320 could be a reference to former President Bill Clinton, whose 2:23:57.440 --> 2:24:01.520 nickname was Bubba, and whose name is Bubba in some 2:24:01.600 --> 2:24:04.480 of these other emails, or is referred to as pub 2:24:04.600 --> 2:24:06.279 in some of his other emails, which. 2:24:06.080 --> 2:24:08.440 Is something that I've seen surprise a lot of people. 2:24:08.520 --> 2:24:10.879 If you grew up in the nineties, you were aware 2:24:10.920 --> 2:24:13.840 that his nickname was Bubba, but he has not been 2:24:13.879 --> 2:24:16.440 called Bubba in a very long time when he like 2:24:16.640 --> 2:24:19.360 lost all that weight and went vegan and like it 2:24:19.720 --> 2:24:22.320 kind of stopped seeming like as much of a Bubba 2:24:22.440 --> 2:24:24.560 as he did when he was the president. The Saturday 2:24:24.640 --> 2:24:27.960 Night Live made fun of in that great McDonald's sketch. 2:24:28.480 --> 2:24:31.359 But yeah, anyway, continue gare. 2:24:31.879 --> 2:24:33.520 I mean, and I don't know how abut what else 2:24:33.560 --> 2:24:36.320 there is to say here? You know, photos have been 2:24:36.400 --> 2:24:39.279 recirculating bub Trump, Yes. 2:24:39.080 --> 2:24:41.359 Bubba Gump shrimp, Well, the real. 2:24:41.120 --> 2:24:42.360 Bubba, please stand up. 2:24:43.280 --> 2:24:46.600 Photos have been recirculating of Trump, I would say, groping 2:24:47.040 --> 2:24:51.039 Bill Clinton's penis. Yeah, yep, yep. 2:24:51.320 --> 2:24:56.200 There's more there than you'd expect, right, yes, yeah, but. 2:24:57.120 --> 2:25:00.640 Bubba has referred to a few people, Yeah, including other 2:25:00.640 --> 2:25:05.040 people like in Epstein's circle, like a golfer and models. Yeah, 2:25:05.080 --> 2:25:10.520 but Bubba was also the name of Gleainne Maxwell's horse. Oh. 2:25:10.640 --> 2:25:13.920 I'm just not hearing this, and that's I'm sorry. And 2:25:14.400 --> 2:25:17.920 here's the thing. I see the appeal to believing that 2:25:18.000 --> 2:25:21.520 this is the answer. I simply don't believe Donald Trump 2:25:21.600 --> 2:25:24.320 ever had that kind of throat game. I'm sorry, I 2:25:24.400 --> 2:25:27.080 just don't. I just don't accept that this is. 2:25:27.000 --> 2:25:30.880 By far the funniest possibility that he did like a 2:25:31.000 --> 2:25:33.760 joke photo shoot where he pretended. 2:25:35.360 --> 2:25:37.560 I can see him doing that. 2:25:37.760 --> 2:25:42.160 This is really understandable. This is like, this is really doable. 2:25:43.120 --> 2:25:44.240 Haven't we all been there? 2:25:45.080 --> 2:25:46.360 So that is. 2:25:48.160 --> 2:25:52.240 Yeah, and you know, take this however you will, Like 2:25:52.280 --> 2:25:55.080 Mark Epstein, has denied that the bubba referred to the 2:25:55.120 --> 2:25:58.520 email is a reference to Bill Clinton, while also admitting 2:25:58.560 --> 2:26:00.520 in this same like interview to News Nation and a 2:26:00.560 --> 2:26:03.520 statement that like, you know, Jeffrey certainly did have dirt 2:26:03.520 --> 2:26:05.480 on the president and thought that he was the only 2:26:05.520 --> 2:26:09.680 one that could sink both candidates career in twenty sixteen, 2:26:09.760 --> 2:26:11.959 both both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. 2:26:12.080 --> 2:26:13.320 Pretty good chance that's true. 2:26:13.360 --> 2:26:17.280 Actually yeah, but he he for what it worth is 2:26:17.320 --> 2:26:20.959 saying it's not a reference to Clinton. Who who knows 2:26:21.959 --> 2:26:24.240 that there's a real sort of you know, if if 2:26:24.280 --> 2:26:27.000 you if you want to do the sort of pop 2:26:27.040 --> 2:26:29.400 Marxist line is there's a real sort of historical unity 2:26:29.440 --> 2:26:32.160 of the ruling class moment. When you read these emails 2:26:32.600 --> 2:26:37.120 and the people in them, it's like it's Bill Clinton. 2:26:37.280 --> 2:26:40.280 It's Bill Clinton's like the people around Bill Clinton it's 2:26:40.520 --> 2:26:44.360 Ken Starr. And you know, you go back and you 2:26:44.400 --> 2:26:46.120 look at like you look at like the actual like 2:26:46.160 --> 2:26:49.039 impiachment of Bill Clinton, right, and you realize that every 2:26:49.080 --> 2:26:53.000 single one of these people are all friends with Jeffrey 2:26:53.000 --> 2:26:58.000 Epstein and are just kind of hanging out like yeah 2:26:58.160 --> 2:27:00.480 on like on the pedophile and. 2:27:00.440 --> 2:27:04.879 It's just, yeah, it's something that you couldn't It's like 2:27:04.959 --> 2:27:09.760 the most the most sort of on the nose, like 2:27:09.920 --> 2:27:13.200 I like completely didactic, I'm pounding your head with a hammer, 2:27:13.560 --> 2:27:16.520 like Marxist thing from nineteen sixty where they go, yeah, 2:27:16.600 --> 2:27:19.080 all of the presidents are hanging out on pedophile Island 2:27:19.520 --> 2:27:22.480 like consecretly conspiring behind your back, and they're taking photos 2:27:22.520 --> 2:27:25.199 of them like grabbing each other's dicks like you wouldn't believe. 2:27:25.240 --> 2:27:27.600 But it's like no, no, no, no, this is just this 2:27:28.040 --> 2:27:30.360 is just the historical unity of the ruling class is 2:27:31.120 --> 2:27:33.320 literally they're all friends with this pedophile. 2:27:33.640 --> 2:27:37.880 Well, it's just these are all wealthy, powerful people and 2:27:38.080 --> 2:27:40.720 the only people that they socialize with is each other. 2:27:40.760 --> 2:27:42.480 You know. The New York Times came up with an 2:27:42.480 --> 2:27:44.800 out with an article this week that was like the 2:27:44.840 --> 2:27:48.040 Epstein emails or an insight into an old New York 2:27:48.160 --> 2:27:49.959 long departed or since. 2:27:50.320 --> 2:27:53.440 Yeah, that was an incredible headline, and yeah, I mean 2:27:53.680 --> 2:27:54.080 it was. 2:27:54.160 --> 2:27:56.520 This was like the transition between all of these people 2:27:56.600 --> 2:27:59.720 writing each other letters and all of these people just 2:28:00.080 --> 2:28:04.320 bitching publicly on the internet, openly and losing their minds. 2:28:04.400 --> 2:28:08.360 Like the awkward interstittle period was them all emailing each 2:28:08.400 --> 2:28:10.960 other from their iPads. Right, So, to that extent, the 2:28:10.959 --> 2:28:13.400 New York Times article is right. Not the main takeaway 2:28:13.480 --> 2:28:16.320 from the Jeffrey Epstein emails, I would say, probably not 2:28:16.360 --> 2:28:19.439 worth an article in the Times, but it's not wrong technically. 2:28:19.680 --> 2:28:22.280 Yeah, yeah, it's a fascinating thing to choose to go. 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:24.800 Yeah, that poor horse. 2:28:25.959 --> 2:28:28.440 Yeah, it's a little bit. It's a little bit like 2:28:29.080 --> 2:28:31.960 a journalist showing up in Berlin in late nineteen forty 2:28:32.000 --> 2:28:35.240 five and like going through like papers in the ruins 2:28:35.320 --> 2:28:37.600 of the Reichstag and being like, wow, this really reveals 2:28:37.600 --> 2:28:45.640 a lost to Berlin. Like, I mean, yeah, that's really 2:28:45.760 --> 2:28:46.200 the point. 2:28:49.800 --> 2:28:52.920 Any other comments on on Bubba. 2:28:53.160 --> 2:28:55.400 Did anyone ask guys his brother about the Hortz. 2:28:56.160 --> 2:28:58.720 I don't believe Mark has been asked about the horse. 2:28:59.680 --> 2:29:02.039 Mark is in a not that I have a ton 2:29:02.080 --> 2:29:05.160 of sympathy for this guy, but just recognizing things objectively, 2:29:05.920 --> 2:29:08.600 he's in a tough position because his brother is an 2:29:08.879 --> 2:29:13.520 was an incredibly famous he'shit a file sex trafficker, and 2:29:14.040 --> 2:29:19.720 he is desperately trying not to get disappeared by the regime. 2:29:20.480 --> 2:29:23.039 Or he also knows what'll come after the regime, so 2:29:23.080 --> 2:29:25.000 he doesn't want to set himself in a self up 2:29:25.000 --> 2:29:27.280 in a way where he gets in trouble from that either, right, 2:29:27.400 --> 2:29:32.080 Like it's a legitimately complicated situation he finds himself in 2:29:32.680 --> 2:29:35.640 that his brother just kind of laughed for him. And again, 2:29:35.680 --> 2:29:37.640 I don't have a lot of sympathy for the man, 2:29:37.720 --> 2:29:39.560 but I can recognize it because he also said at 2:29:39.560 --> 2:29:42.280 the same time, he was like this definitely was not him, 2:29:42.320 --> 2:29:44.960 referring to Donald Trump giving a blowjob to Bill Clinton. 2:29:45.360 --> 2:29:48.279 He did also say that he believed that the Republicans 2:29:48.280 --> 2:29:51.400 were removing the names of Republicans from the Epstein files 2:29:51.400 --> 2:29:54.280 before release. Right, So he's he has been like hedging 2:29:54.360 --> 2:29:57.120 his bets because again he's in a lot of danger. 2:29:57.840 --> 2:30:00.560 H in trouble. 2:30:01.120 --> 2:30:03.040 This man, this man is in trouble. 2:30:03.440 --> 2:30:08.520 Yeah, yeah, I would not be granted infused I was him, 2:30:08.520 --> 2:30:12.480 I would be I wouldn't say shit, yeah, like literally 2:30:12.640 --> 2:30:13.959 under the ground. 2:30:13.879 --> 2:30:15.920 Yeah, I would I would, for one thing, not be 2:30:15.959 --> 2:30:18.720 in a country that extradited. Would I would never set 2:30:18.840 --> 2:30:21.720 foot in a country with extradition treaties to the Western 2:30:21.720 --> 2:30:22.600 world Again. 2:30:22.440 --> 2:30:26.080 Yeah, the next strike in Venezuela will be Mark Epstein. 2:30:26.200 --> 2:30:28.720 I would be living in Tehran right now. 2:30:28.760 --> 2:30:33.720 Like, let's talk about Marjorie Trader Green. 2:30:34.720 --> 2:30:40.200 Sure, why not? Yeah, so Marjorie Taylor Green is part 2:30:40.240 --> 2:30:41.560 of the resistance. 2:30:41.040 --> 2:30:43.320 Now hashtag welcome to the Resistance. 2:30:43.640 --> 2:30:44.520 Yeah, exactly. 2:30:45.200 --> 2:30:46.360 It's very like and Or. 2:30:47.680 --> 2:30:49.760 Sure, it's like that point in and Or where the 2:30:49.800 --> 2:30:53.400 person who did nothing but help Emperor Palpatine suddenly at 2:30:53.400 --> 2:30:55.840 the last minute was like, you know what, this guy 2:30:55.879 --> 2:30:57.360 want a step too far from me, you know? 2:30:57.640 --> 2:31:01.760 Or Ah, Actually I hate you too much that I 2:31:01.800 --> 2:31:03.880 think that's the I think that's the reality. 2:31:04.000 --> 2:31:05.800 I wasn't sure if there was an analog for anti 2:31:05.800 --> 2:31:08.560 Semitism in the Star Warcks universe. That I wasn't Well, 2:31:09.080 --> 2:31:11.640 you probably don't want to, you know what, I've asked 2:31:11.680 --> 2:31:12.400 the wrong people. 2:31:14.000 --> 2:31:18.920 Right now, you have three hours, James. 2:31:18.920 --> 2:31:22.480 In the early two thousands, George Lucas invented some names 2:31:22.520 --> 2:31:25.680 that are themselves hate crimes. Just be remembering the names 2:31:25.760 --> 2:31:27.240 is a hate Crime, James, do. 2:31:27.200 --> 2:31:29.320 You want to read about the troyd Arians. 2:31:30.000 --> 2:31:34.039 No, No, I'm as far as I get into into 2:31:34.120 --> 2:31:37.280 Star Wars Big Tree discourse is Jia jar Binks and 2:31:37.600 --> 2:31:39.199 after that I leave. 2:31:39.640 --> 2:31:43.359 Well from the same movie. But no. So, Yeah, Marjorie 2:31:43.360 --> 2:31:46.840 has been more combative against some of the you know, 2:31:46.920 --> 2:31:50.560 Trump cultist mega right on a few issues. One she's 2:31:50.680 --> 2:31:54.840 extended her already evidenced anti Semitism all a Jewish space 2:31:54.879 --> 2:31:58.840 lasers towards foreign policy in this like America First Nick 2:31:58.879 --> 2:32:04.160 Fuentzi way of being critical of Israel. You see seeds 2:32:04.160 --> 2:32:06.440 of this because like Martin Taylor Green like attended the 2:32:06.520 --> 2:32:09.720 Nick Fuontes America First conferences like four years ago, Like 2:32:09.720 --> 2:32:12.400 this is this side of it not a surprising turn 2:32:12.480 --> 2:32:16.959 for her. Her finally flipping on Trump in terms of 2:32:17.000 --> 2:32:20.040 the pedophile stuff may be a little bit surprising because 2:32:20.120 --> 2:32:23.560 she was the original like QAnon candidate. Yeah, and q 2:32:23.720 --> 2:32:26.520 Andon's built on this, like trying to justify in some 2:32:26.600 --> 2:32:30.359 ways Trump's proximity to Epstein by building this grand narrative. 2:32:30.640 --> 2:32:33.279 And she made a statement recently that she's no longer 2:32:33.440 --> 2:32:35.600 all in on the q stuff right like she had 2:32:35.720 --> 2:32:38.000 she is. This is a pivot for her, but it's 2:32:38.000 --> 2:32:41.320 a pivot that's pretty consistent with you know, her anti 2:32:41.360 --> 2:32:42.240 sense and it makes sense. 2:32:42.520 --> 2:32:45.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense with with the Israel 2:32:45.959 --> 2:32:48.760 foreign policy stuff. It also makes sense in terms of 2:32:49.240 --> 2:32:53.119 Trump's made a lot more statements directly addressing this Epstein stuff, 2:32:53.320 --> 2:32:55.600 which kind of does call into question some of like 2:32:55.640 --> 2:32:59.120 the Q narratives, which for someone like Marjorie might actually 2:32:59.120 --> 2:33:01.400 get her to kind of ref on some of like 2:33:01.440 --> 2:33:04.800 this Trump cultish status that she's had for a while. 2:33:05.800 --> 2:33:11.080 This has frustrated Trump, and you know, Trump's also been 2:33:11.080 --> 2:33:14.760 frushtyed with other members like Lauren Bobert and other like 2:33:15.000 --> 2:33:19.040 congress people who were pledging to vote in support of 2:33:19.080 --> 2:33:21.280 the release of the Epstein files. And this pressure was 2:33:21.320 --> 2:33:24.560 building a lot last week during this like twenty thousand 2:33:25.400 --> 2:33:29.480 document release and all this new news coverage and as 2:33:29.560 --> 2:33:31.840 these as more and more Republicans bean to deflect from 2:33:31.840 --> 2:33:34.720 Trump over the release of the Epstein files. Trump himself 2:33:34.879 --> 2:33:38.920 flipped his rhetoric over this past weekend, still calling the 2:33:38.920 --> 2:33:43.080 debate over the files a Democrat hoax, but truthing that 2:33:43.120 --> 2:33:46.000 the files should be released because we quote unquote have 2:33:46.200 --> 2:33:50.040 nothing to hide, and he called on Republicans to vote 2:33:50.040 --> 2:33:52.039 in favor of the bill to release the Epstein files, 2:33:52.400 --> 2:33:55.680 which they did on Tuesday in a four hundred and 2:33:55.680 --> 2:33:59.600 twenty seven to one vote, with Representative Clay Higgins, the 2:33:59.600 --> 2:34:04.200 republic In from Louisiana, the only Congressman to vote no. 2:34:05.000 --> 2:34:09.160 Hours later, Chuck Schumer unanimously passed the measure through the Senate. 2:34:09.760 --> 2:34:12.800 Mike Johnson had previously expected the Senate to amend the 2:34:12.840 --> 2:34:18.160 bill to quote make sure we don't do permanent damage 2:34:18.160 --> 2:34:23.560 to the political system unquote, and after its passage through 2:34:23.600 --> 2:34:27.800 the Senate, Johnson seemed quite worried that it went through 2:34:27.800 --> 2:34:29.879 the upper chambers in its current form. And I want 2:34:29.879 --> 2:34:32.240 to play this clip here because it's kind of shocking 2:34:32.320 --> 2:34:34.240 to hear him, hear him freak out. 2:34:34.520 --> 2:34:37.600 And before we say this, you owe it to yourself 2:34:37.680 --> 2:34:40.600 as a person to go actually look at this clip 2:34:40.600 --> 2:34:41.640 and watch his face. 2:34:42.080 --> 2:34:44.000 It is amazing. 2:34:45.320 --> 2:34:46.400 Sorry, I haven't seen this. 2:34:46.560 --> 2:34:48.760 I'm excited it'll be in the sources below. 2:34:49.640 --> 2:34:52.600 Any reaction to r foon you seeing the bill without 2:34:52.640 --> 2:34:53.679 adding amendments. 2:34:53.400 --> 2:34:56.760 Or changing it, I am. 2:34:56.920 --> 2:34:58.640 I'm deeply disappointed in this outcome. 2:34:58.680 --> 2:35:01.600 I think I'm told I've been at the State dinner. 2:35:01.640 --> 2:35:03.240 I don't know. I was just told that Chuck Schumer 2:35:03.720 --> 2:35:06.200 rushed it to the floor and put it out there preemptively. 2:35:06.879 --> 2:35:08.000 It needed amendments. 2:35:08.320 --> 2:35:10.080 I just spoke to President about that, and we'll see 2:35:10.120 --> 2:35:10.520 what happened. 2:35:10.560 --> 2:35:12.080 So is he do you think he may beat on it? 2:35:12.120 --> 2:35:14.120 You say you spoke, I'm not saying that. 2:35:14.240 --> 2:35:16.240 Is he supportive of it in its current form? 2:35:17.600 --> 2:35:20.280 We both have concerned about it, so we'll see. 2:35:20.320 --> 2:35:22.160 As I was staying there with the Crown friends with 2:35:22.440 --> 2:35:25.119 in Paul, are you frustrating the majority leader? 2:35:25.440 --> 2:35:26.800 Are you up with the majority leader? 2:35:28.840 --> 2:35:29.160 Cool? 2:35:30.040 --> 2:35:30.320 Nice? 2:35:30.600 --> 2:35:33.720 What a what a normal? What a normal interaction? That 2:35:33.840 --> 2:35:35.400 is also also worth doing. 2:35:35.440 --> 2:35:37.040 The very end of that video, he says I was 2:35:37.080 --> 2:35:40.040 eating with the Crown Prince because he is again walking 2:35:40.080 --> 2:35:43.119 out of a state dinner with one Mohammad bin Selmond 2:35:43.480 --> 2:35:48.960 the the yeah, I don't even list of war crimes here, 2:35:49.240 --> 2:35:54.480 the Sudanese child soldier, exterminator, et cetera, et cetera. 2:35:55.560 --> 2:35:58.240 But no, It's safe to say that both Johnson and 2:35:58.360 --> 2:36:02.840 President Trump have concerns about the state of the bill, 2:36:02.879 --> 2:36:05.640 and Johnson samed a little bit wishy washy on if 2:36:05.680 --> 2:36:08.680 the President would even sign this or veto this. Now, 2:36:08.720 --> 2:36:14.039 it's not all bad for the president. I oh, I'd 2:36:14.160 --> 2:36:16.280 like to seal Donnie J wiggle his way out of 2:36:16.320 --> 2:36:21.680 this jam. This bill that has passed does allow Attorney 2:36:21.720 --> 2:36:25.080 General and Bondy to withhold or redact portions of the 2:36:25.080 --> 2:36:30.119 files that could jeopardize active federal investigations and personally determine 2:36:30.160 --> 2:36:34.480 if information in the files should remain classified to protect 2:36:34.959 --> 2:36:39.720 national security. The last weekend, Trump ordered BONDI to launch 2:36:39.720 --> 2:36:45.320 investigations looking into connection between Epstein and prominent Democratic politicians 2:36:45.400 --> 2:36:51.440 and donors. Here's clip from a Wednesday, November nineteenth press conference. 2:36:52.040 --> 2:36:54.920 Attorney General, do you mean that you will provide all 2:36:55.000 --> 2:36:57.160 the files by thirty days? 2:36:57.600 --> 2:37:02.680 We will follow the law. The law both chambers last evening. 2:37:02.760 --> 2:37:05.440 It has not yet been signed, but we will continue 2:37:05.440 --> 2:37:09.920 to follow the law again while protecting victims but also 2:37:10.000 --> 2:37:13.240 providing maximum transparency. 2:37:13.080 --> 2:37:17.720 That Maternity General the DLJ statement earlier this year saying 2:37:17.760 --> 2:37:21.560 that the files would not release mention the fact that 2:37:21.920 --> 2:37:25.480 the review of the documents and the evidence did not 2:37:25.600 --> 2:37:30.040 suggest that any additional investigation of third parties was warranted. 2:37:30.760 --> 2:37:34.000 What changed since then that you launched this investigation? 2:37:34.600 --> 2:37:40.960 Information that has come for information, there's information that new information, 2:37:41.160 --> 2:37:44.680 additional information, and again we will continue to follow the 2:37:44.760 --> 2:37:47.880 law to investigate any leads. If there are any victims, 2:37:47.879 --> 2:37:51.240 we encourage all victims to come forward, and we will 2:37:51.280 --> 2:37:56.039 continue to provide maximum transparency under the law. 2:37:57.320 --> 2:37:59.119 Very normal, very normal response. 2:38:00.480 --> 2:38:02.760 Uh huh, Yeah, that's that doesn't sound sketchy. 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:07.039 I have never, at any point in the last eight years, 2:38:07.720 --> 2:38:10.080 twelve years, however long we've been in this hellscap been 2:38:10.120 --> 2:38:14.000 a been a piss tape believer. This looking at these 2:38:14.000 --> 2:38:17.160 people's faces is the closest I've ever been to being like, no, 2:38:17.320 --> 2:38:19.920 maybe that shit's real, and maybe it's in there, because 2:38:20.040 --> 2:38:24.959 there's clearly something in there that they are just they're 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:25.960 just going through it. 2:38:26.680 --> 2:38:27.560 Yeah, it's is wild. 2:38:28.720 --> 2:38:31.080 Yeah, some of these guys seem to seem a little 2:38:31.120 --> 2:38:31.760 bit concerned. 2:38:33.160 --> 2:38:37.000 Yeah, yeah, I wonder why, surely there's no. 2:38:37.520 --> 2:38:39.760 I mean, imagine the workload ahead of them. They have 2:38:39.800 --> 2:38:42.800 to redact so much. Yeah, if you get so many 2:38:42.879 --> 2:38:45.640 of those markers, imagine how tired their risks are going 2:38:45.720 --> 2:38:45.879 to be. 2:38:46.400 --> 2:38:46.640 Yeah. 2:38:46.840 --> 2:38:48.680 It's like that feeling when you come back from a 2:38:48.760 --> 2:38:50.800 reporting trip and you're like, shit, now I have to 2:38:51.200 --> 2:38:51.879 do the job. 2:38:52.160 --> 2:38:55.520 Yeah, yeah, yes, I'm familiar with that feeling. 2:38:56.360 --> 2:38:58.000 Do you know what we have to do right now? 2:38:58.640 --> 2:39:00.840 And as pivot to ads. 2:39:00.680 --> 2:39:15.240 Yes, yeah, let's go ahead and do that and we're back. 2:39:16.920 --> 2:39:17.080 Now. 2:39:17.080 --> 2:39:20.600 I would like to take some time to discuss probably 2:39:20.600 --> 2:39:23.360 the second most important news story of the whole week, 2:39:24.080 --> 2:39:27.800 can do it Sure? Which is totally not a hail 2:39:27.920 --> 2:39:30.280 Mary distraction to get away from the Epstein stuff. This 2:39:30.320 --> 2:39:36.160 is totally legitimate and totally newsworthy. On Monday, November seventeenth, 2:39:36.879 --> 2:39:39.960 a piece in the prestigious outlet The New York Post 2:39:40.040 --> 2:39:47.280 opinion section provided earth shattering relevations revelations care that's the 2:39:47.320 --> 2:39:51.440 word about the attempted Trump assassination, claiming to have discovered 2:39:51.440 --> 2:39:57.039 evidence that Thomas Crooks, the shooter, had two possible accounts 2:39:57.480 --> 2:40:03.680 on Devian Art, which, yeah, this really is the biggest story, 2:40:04.240 --> 2:40:07.480 which the Post New York Post describes as quote one 2:40:07.480 --> 2:40:10.960 of the biggest online hubs for furry art and the 2:40:11.000 --> 2:40:14.600 furry community. A furry is someone who has an interest 2:40:14.680 --> 2:40:20.040 in hormorphized animal characters, often as a sexual fetish unquote 2:40:20.160 --> 2:40:23.640 every time. Later reporting in The New York Post claimed 2:40:23.680 --> 2:40:26.960 that one of these accounts had only shared a single 2:40:27.000 --> 2:40:31.879 post quote a repost of a towering, muscular female bodybuilder 2:40:31.920 --> 2:40:35.760 and a slight man in his underwear unquote and quote 2:40:36.000 --> 2:40:41.160 multiple searches for muscular women and female bodybuilders found on 2:40:41.360 --> 2:40:43.800 Crook's supposed YouTube search history. 2:40:43.800 --> 2:40:47.160 He's a real pervert, then excellent, Yes, beautiful quote. 2:40:47.360 --> 2:40:50.640 Oh it's not it's oh, Robert, that's that's not even 2:40:50.680 --> 2:40:54.640 the worst part. The furry stuff obviously problematic considering our 2:40:54.680 --> 2:40:57.000 past few furry mass shooters. Is maybe a trend here, 2:40:57.040 --> 2:40:59.600 we should look into this. But possibly the most danning 2:40:59.600 --> 2:41:03.160 piece of information in the New York Post reporting is 2:41:03.160 --> 2:41:07.720 that Crooks quote described himself with the pronouns they them 2:41:08.160 --> 2:41:10.960 on the platform deb and Art, which is one of 2:41:11.000 --> 2:41:13.760 the biggest hubs for furry art and the furry community. 2:41:14.480 --> 2:41:17.840 This became the big thing among the right. Another trans shooter, 2:41:18.000 --> 2:41:21.400 the Trump the Trump assassin was trans the whole time, 2:41:21.480 --> 2:41:25.240 and we didn't even know the FBI covered up the 2:41:25.320 --> 2:41:29.000 trans connection. Here it's all coming together more more red 2:41:29.000 --> 2:41:32.280 string on the board. The trans the trans shooter narrative 2:41:32.760 --> 2:41:35.320 is growing more and more evident by the day. Right, this, 2:41:35.320 --> 2:41:38.200 this is the way that this was framed across all 2:41:38.240 --> 2:41:41.760 of these all these commentators, who's the president right now? 2:41:42.360 --> 2:41:46.640 What is this supposed to work? 2:41:48.440 --> 2:41:50.720 At the time they investigated it, Biden would have been 2:41:50.760 --> 2:41:52.760 president right or they began their investigation. 2:41:53.480 --> 2:41:55.360 The New York Post did reach out to the current 2:41:55.440 --> 2:42:00.360 FBI for comment. They did not receive a response. State 2:42:01.400 --> 2:42:04.360 The New York Posts reporting like in these in these 2:42:04.760 --> 2:42:07.280 opinion pieces, and I think later an article they did 2:42:08.000 --> 2:42:12.120 did did later include references to quote, violently anti Semitic 2:42:12.120 --> 2:42:16.720 comments and racist remarks about Hispanic immigrants m that Semmens 2:42:16.760 --> 2:42:21.880 Crooks also made, including YouTube comments from twenty nineteen quote, 2:42:21.959 --> 2:42:23.640 this is going to be blatantly racist, but I hope 2:42:23.680 --> 2:42:26.400 Trump has these people a squad murdered. 2:42:27.320 --> 2:42:27.920 Oh great. 2:42:28.640 --> 2:42:31.879 I always believed being patriotic was lighting up a bunch 2:42:31.920 --> 2:42:35.280 of socialist Jews like the ones that booed Trump and 2:42:35.320 --> 2:42:39.000 blasting their useless brains out with an ar. I hope 2:42:39.000 --> 2:42:41.840 a quick, painful death to all the deplorable immigrants and 2:42:41.959 --> 2:42:48.840 anti Trump congresswomen unquote. Obviously, the right wing commentators are 2:42:48.879 --> 2:42:51.440 not talking about this sort of stuff. They're not talking 2:42:52.680 --> 2:42:57.320 about Crook's actual politics or political shifts during the pandemic 2:42:57.320 --> 2:42:59.720 where he started getting kind of more Trump critical but 2:43:00.160 --> 2:43:04.000 still from a conservative perspective. Instead, the story is now 2:43:04.040 --> 2:43:08.040 to quote libs of TikTok, Charlie Kirk, killer furry fetish, 2:43:08.120 --> 2:43:12.560 Trump shooter, furry fetish, Idaho firefighter killer furry fetish. What's 2:43:12.600 --> 2:43:16.879 going on? Right wing podcaster and disgraced BuzzFeed journalist Benny 2:43:16.920 --> 2:43:19.960 Johnson quote it has now been confirmed that attempted Trump 2:43:19.959 --> 2:43:23.200 assass and Thomas Crooks used they them pronouns, had a 2:43:23.240 --> 2:43:28.840 deep interest in furries and was exploring gender identity. Add 2:43:28.879 --> 2:43:32.200 it to the list. This list is then a list 2:43:32.240 --> 2:43:37.320 of both real and many not real quote unquote trans 2:43:37.400 --> 2:43:40.879 mass shooters. Another account in d C. Draino, who was 2:43:41.080 --> 2:43:44.080 part of the White House photo op team during the 2:43:44.120 --> 2:43:48.080 initial fake release of the fake Epstein files, not that 2:43:48.120 --> 2:43:51.440 the files were fake, but like this fake media presentation 2:43:51.560 --> 2:43:55.360 around releasing the already released and actually even more redacted 2:43:55.560 --> 2:43:58.760 versions of already public files. DC Drena was one of 2:43:58.760 --> 2:44:00.800 these guys who was like pray it around as like 2:44:00.840 --> 2:44:03.959 a prop holding up these binders of files. He posted. 2:44:04.040 --> 2:44:06.840 Quote it is now confirmed the deep state tried to 2:44:06.840 --> 2:44:10.040 cover up that Thomas Crooks was a transgender extremist to 2:44:10.160 --> 2:44:12.680 use the then pronouns and then shot President Trump. We 2:44:12.760 --> 2:44:16.840 need a massive crackdown against violent trans extremism. This sort 2:44:16.879 --> 2:44:19.039 of stuff is losing steam. This sort of stuff is 2:44:19.080 --> 2:44:22.519 not spreading around the way that it has been previously. 2:44:23.160 --> 2:44:27.440 It's very clear that this is a blatant distraction away 2:44:27.520 --> 2:44:30.800 from unflattering stories about Trump in terms of the economy 2:44:30.840 --> 2:44:35.199 and specifically Epstein and all of this. Uh. You know, 2:44:35.040 --> 2:44:37.520 you might be wondering why maybe no other outlets of 2:44:37.560 --> 2:44:40.080 picking the stuff up, and that could be due to 2:44:40.160 --> 2:44:43.840 the dubious nature of the New York Posts sourcing on 2:44:43.879 --> 2:44:49.240 these claims, but also the fact that devian Art automatically 2:44:49.320 --> 2:44:53.560 lists a user's pronouns as they them as the default setting. 2:44:54.920 --> 2:44:59.240 If pronouns are not specified, this is the setting that 2:44:59.400 --> 2:45:03.560 everyone you have to actively try to change it. There 2:45:03.640 --> 2:45:08.480 is no indication Thomas Crooks specifically set pronouns to bay them. 2:45:08.879 --> 2:45:12.360 He is not a transgender extremist. He, like many gen 2:45:12.480 --> 2:45:15.280 Z people, is aware of furry art online. This is 2:45:15.480 --> 2:45:19.240 very common. This is a very common thing. But the 2:45:19.280 --> 2:45:21.920 post had a few other things they tried to try 2:45:21.959 --> 2:45:24.360 to wrap this story around to give it some credibility, 2:45:24.360 --> 2:45:29.879 including this post from the Devian Art alleged to belong 2:45:30.080 --> 2:45:36.600 to Thomas Crooks, which is a picture of someone shooting 2:45:36.680 --> 2:45:41.280 someone else in the head, which your post calls another 2:45:41.400 --> 2:45:44.240 artwork appear to feature a shooting against a backdrop of 2:45:44.280 --> 2:45:48.119 the trans flag colors. This is not the trans flag 2:45:48.200 --> 2:45:51.160 nor the trans flag colors. This is a blue and 2:45:51.480 --> 2:45:58.480 purple background. What purple is not in the transflag colors. 2:45:58.480 --> 2:46:02.120 You can maybe argue this is maybe, but this is 2:46:02.120 --> 2:46:05.199 not a trans flag. This is not an LGBTQ pride flag. 2:46:05.240 --> 2:46:07.440 This isn't even the bisexual flag, which does use these 2:46:07.440 --> 2:46:10.640 same colors. This is just like a sky blue and 2:46:10.680 --> 2:46:14.040 a magenta purple backdrop, which they are trying to frame 2:46:14.080 --> 2:46:19.440 as further evidence of Thomas Krook's transgender ties. But what 2:46:19.560 --> 2:46:22.400 is kind of interesting is as a part of the 2:46:22.520 --> 2:46:27.039 social media accounts alleged to be linked to Crooks that 2:46:27.120 --> 2:46:29.600 have appeared in new reporting from both The New York 2:46:29.640 --> 2:46:32.280 Post and Tucker Carlson's own news outlet. But as a 2:46:32.320 --> 2:46:36.359 part of this reporting on Crook's possible online background included 2:46:36.560 --> 2:46:41.240 a collection of search results or like search history from 2:46:41.320 --> 2:46:45.240 April of twenty nineteen to May of twenty twenty, which 2:46:45.560 --> 2:46:47.959 lines up with stuff that me and Robert have been 2:46:48.000 --> 2:46:51.320 talking about for a while, in that this guy seemed 2:46:51.400 --> 2:46:55.240 to have the ideology or non ideology of a school shooter. 2:46:55.520 --> 2:47:00.200 This is the actual through line across this act of violinces. 2:47:00.800 --> 2:47:04.760 Researches include quote crazy chemical reactions, deadliest mass shootings in 2:47:04.760 --> 2:47:09.000 the world, people attacking pride parades, cars running over protesters, 2:47:09.280 --> 2:47:12.080 getting away with racism, best places for a mass shooting, 2:47:12.320 --> 2:47:16.160 Pulse night club, Pulse night club, police body camera, mass shooting, 2:47:16.160 --> 2:47:19.920 El Paso mass shooting, Trump's civil war, Trump church shooting video, 2:47:20.320 --> 2:47:25.400 guns versus protesters, Orlando shooting reaction. Why I'm missing handgun? 2:47:25.440 --> 2:47:28.480 Firing an air fifteen as fast as possible, fertilizer bomb, 2:47:28.680 --> 2:47:30.920 How do you use a tourniqueit? How to make napalm, 2:47:31.000 --> 2:47:34.920 maltov cocktail? How to make maltov cocktail? Mixing ghasoline with styrofoam, 2:47:35.120 --> 2:47:39.679 mass shooting Canada, Oklahoma bombing sniper in Dallas shooting. 2:47:40.920 --> 2:47:41.200 Man. 2:47:41.440 --> 2:47:43.920 Yeah, who's doing real trouble hitting with his pistol. 2:47:43.640 --> 2:47:48.240 Huh and his rifle. 2:47:48.280 --> 2:47:50.640 It turns out probably choking up too much on the trigger, 2:47:50.640 --> 2:47:51.120 I'd guess. 2:47:51.280 --> 2:47:54.680 Yeah, many such cases, Yeah, yeah, but that's that's a 2:47:54.720 --> 2:47:56.600 pretty clear theme that you've established there. 2:47:56.600 --> 2:47:57.080 Garrison. 2:47:57.320 --> 2:48:02.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you see this in some way 2:48:02.120 --> 2:48:05.280 being like a not necessarily an actual precursor, but in 2:48:05.320 --> 2:48:07.680 the same vein that some of these like TCC people 2:48:08.000 --> 2:48:10.880 later would you know, start developing these past few years. 2:48:10.959 --> 2:48:16.160 It's just obsession with doing violence, this subception with mass killings, 2:48:16.320 --> 2:48:19.240 with bombings, and some of it takes the form of 2:48:19.280 --> 2:48:21.280 like you know, what looks like political violence, like the 2:48:21.280 --> 2:48:24.680 Oklahoma City bombing, but a lot of it is is 2:48:25.400 --> 2:48:30.640 very nihilistic. That's all I have on the explosive reporting 2:48:30.760 --> 2:48:31.959 from the New York Post. 2:48:33.000 --> 2:48:33.280 Great. 2:48:33.640 --> 2:48:33.920 Great. 2:48:34.680 --> 2:48:36.959 I don't know how to segue from that list of 2:48:37.160 --> 2:48:40.600 Google searches to tariff talk. But you know what I've 2:48:40.600 --> 2:48:42.560 been searching for is this music. 2:48:44.000 --> 2:48:48.599 Loppy jazz bomb. 2:48:48.640 --> 2:48:57.640 Locking jazz bot Sary lacking, locking jazz bomb, locking jazz bob. 2:48:59.640 --> 2:49:01.160 So this this is actually a very This has been 2:49:01.240 --> 2:49:03.800 a very very light week on tariff news. It is 2:49:03.840 --> 2:49:06.800 almost entirely composed of people arguing about whether you're going 2:49:06.840 --> 2:49:09.800 to get the tariff check, which no, you're not. You're 2:49:09.840 --> 2:49:12.440 not going to get a check from the government with 2:49:12.640 --> 2:49:14.240 teriff money. It's just not happening. 2:49:15.640 --> 2:49:17.520 So I thought, I thought I'd take a second to 2:49:17.640 --> 2:49:20.560 pull out and look at some of the macro stuff 2:49:20.560 --> 2:49:25.240 that's happening in the economy and look at why it 2:49:25.320 --> 2:49:29.520 feels like a recession even though there isn't one. And 2:49:29.560 --> 2:49:33.000 the answer is that you and me, and everyone in 2:49:33.000 --> 2:49:37.280 this room and probably most of the people's syste keep 2:49:37.360 --> 2:49:42.480 listening to this podcast, are effectively in a recession. And 2:49:42.560 --> 2:49:45.440 the reason I can say this is that there's there's 2:49:45.520 --> 2:49:49.320 pretty good numbers from the Harvard economist Jason Furman, who 2:49:49.600 --> 2:49:51.800 points out that if you if you look at so okay, 2:49:51.800 --> 2:49:55.520 so recession is is three consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, right, 2:49:56.200 --> 2:50:00.160 and this is not like a perfect economic indicator, but 2:50:00.600 --> 2:50:06.720 you know, Jason Furrin points out, ninety two percent of 2:50:06.800 --> 2:50:10.280 GDP growth in the first half of this year is 2:50:11.320 --> 2:50:15.000 in a category that's called information processing equipment and software. 2:50:15.840 --> 2:50:18.280 And so, okay, what is that? That is all data 2:50:18.280 --> 2:50:21.280 center it's all data center construction. It is ninety two 2:50:21.320 --> 2:50:23.400 percent of all our GP growth. 2:50:25.920 --> 2:50:29.279 Well, the good news is that, for example, Oracle didn't 2:50:29.320 --> 2:50:31.800 just make a big deal with open Ai to provide 2:50:31.800 --> 2:50:36.320 them with computing resources, and after making this three hundred 2:50:36.360 --> 2:50:39.320 billion dollar deal, has dropped three hundred and fifteen billion 2:50:39.360 --> 2:50:43.640 dollars in valuation. That didn't happen obviously, Like these are 2:50:44.000 --> 2:50:47.080 things are good in an AI world. There's not a 2:50:47.120 --> 2:50:49.720 bunch of people pulling their money out of Nvidia as 2:50:49.800 --> 2:50:50.640 fast as they can. 2:50:50.800 --> 2:50:52.240 Yeah, yeah, we're getting to that. 2:50:52.320 --> 2:50:55.200 Yeah one of them again, Peter Deal pulling his money 2:50:55.200 --> 2:50:57.400 out right now, getting all. 2:50:57.280 --> 2:50:58.080 Of his shit out. 2:50:58.480 --> 2:51:01.440 Yeah, get your shipped out, fucking my Michael Burry is 2:51:01.480 --> 2:51:03.920 now shorting the as here. 2:51:04.240 --> 2:51:07.600 I will say this, the Michael Berry short thing is 2:51:07.680 --> 2:51:10.320 literally the only thing that I've ran into that actually 2:51:10.360 --> 2:51:13.560 makes me be like that. Like Michael Burry versus the 2:51:13.560 --> 2:51:16.640 AI industry is like really truly is the great duel 2:51:16.760 --> 2:51:19.600 of the stoppable force and the movable object. Yeah, like 2:51:19.840 --> 2:51:24.360 that's we're not dealing with like world rending titans here, 2:51:25.360 --> 2:51:26.800 but you know, but we are. 2:51:26.920 --> 2:51:28.480 We are going to get a sequel to the Big 2:51:28.520 --> 2:51:31.240 Short that's going to really struggle to be entertaining. Because 2:51:31.240 --> 2:51:33.560 with the Big Short, what was fun was these guys 2:51:33.600 --> 2:51:38.960 realizing how fucked this like system based on like really 2:51:39.000 --> 2:51:42.200 bad like tranches of debt and how badly it was 2:51:42.240 --> 2:51:44.760 going to fuck the economy. And with AI it's just 2:51:44.800 --> 2:51:47.119 going to be like literally everyone in the world except 2:51:47.160 --> 2:51:49.760 for the people in media and politics, being like this 2:51:49.800 --> 2:51:55.600 seems like a fucking grift. This seems bad, and them 2:51:55.600 --> 2:51:57.680 all being like no, no, no, bro, trust me, no, 2:51:57.680 --> 2:51:59.400 no no, and then it all goes to shit. 2:51:59.600 --> 2:52:01.680 Yeah, I'm gonna do a full episode about this to 2:52:01.760 --> 2:52:04.680 some point that there's a really good interview on a 2:52:05.120 --> 2:52:08.039 Bloomberg podcast called Odd Thoughts with its kind of Paul 2:52:08.120 --> 2:52:11.920 Katrowski who points out that well a, he has a 2:52:11.920 --> 2:52:14.600 great line but calling this like the super bubble basically 2:52:14.640 --> 2:52:17.320 where it's it's every single kind of speculative bubble rolled 2:52:17.320 --> 2:52:19.640 into one because all these data centers are being financed 2:52:19.640 --> 2:52:22.480 with like the with the equivalent of mortgage backed securities. 2:52:22.520 --> 2:52:26.520 Well, yeah, these are these are subprime loans for tech companies, right, Like, 2:52:26.560 --> 2:52:28.560 that's that's what's financing all of this. 2:52:28.840 --> 2:52:32.680 Yeah, and then these buildings. Right. It's also it's also 2:52:32.720 --> 2:52:34.680 a real estate bubble because all of these data centers 2:52:34.680 --> 2:52:37.160 are taking a ridiculus amount of real estate. There's a 2:52:37.240 --> 2:52:39.120 tech bubble, and the. 2:52:39.480 --> 2:52:41.240 Single thing that and again we're going to do a 2:52:41.280 --> 2:52:43.080 longer episode about this later, the single thing that's the 2:52:43.120 --> 2:52:45.640 most unhinged to me about this. And it's you know, 2:52:45.920 --> 2:52:48.760 even even excluding the fact that you know, all of 2:52:48.800 --> 2:52:51.080 these processors that they're using in these data centers burned 2:52:51.120 --> 2:52:53.879 out after about a year and a half because they're 2:52:53.920 --> 2:52:56.800 just running them constantly. Is that if you look at 2:52:56.800 --> 2:52:59.760 like the housing collapse in two thousand and eight, right, 2:53:00.320 --> 2:53:02.880 and you look at what was underlying all of those 2:53:02.879 --> 2:53:06.800 bad assets. There were houses there right at the end 2:53:06.840 --> 2:53:08.320 of the day, all of these banks can go in 2:53:08.360 --> 2:53:11.680 and they can take your house, and that's really bad obviously, 2:53:12.160 --> 2:53:15.000 But what is the underlying assets for all of these 2:53:15.120 --> 2:53:19.120 tranches of all these tranches of debt. The underlying asset 2:53:19.520 --> 2:53:22.360 that you're supposed to be taking, you know, that's supposed 2:53:22.360 --> 2:53:24.520 to be the collateral is compute power. 2:53:24.760 --> 2:53:30.320 Yeah no, no, it seems fun. 2:53:33.040 --> 2:53:36.080 Because people can live in the computer and we all 2:53:36.120 --> 2:53:39.000 need to live in a computer paler, so it's fine. 2:53:40.879 --> 2:53:41.080 Yeah. 2:53:42.000 --> 2:53:45.760 Look, the the bad news is things are going to 2:53:45.800 --> 2:53:47.960 be really bad for a lot of people. Oh yeah, 2:53:47.959 --> 2:53:50.680 and they already are probably most people that end they're 2:53:50.720 --> 2:53:54.039 going to get worse. The good news is once we 2:53:54.120 --> 2:53:56.560 get past you know, if if this is the way 2:53:56.600 --> 2:53:59.280 the dot com bubble went right, once we get past 2:53:59.680 --> 2:54:03.119 this crash that's brought on by you know, a mix 2:54:03.200 --> 2:54:08.200 of greed and insanity and ignorance and lies, then we 2:54:08.240 --> 2:54:11.840 can finally get to the Internet changing society in only 2:54:11.879 --> 2:54:14.760 positive ways, which is what happened after the dot com bubble. 2:54:14.879 --> 2:54:18.600 You know, we got Facebook, we got Google, we got Twitter, 2:54:18.800 --> 2:54:21.879 we got Instagram, we got all of these great apps 2:54:21.879 --> 2:54:24.680 that have made our lives nothing better but better, you know. 2:54:26.040 --> 2:54:30.000 So I'm looking forward. 2:54:30.160 --> 2:54:34.960 I'm gonna forget Getter wouldn't be ferries if it wasn't 2:54:35.000 --> 2:54:35.600 with the. 2:54:36.240 --> 2:54:42.560 Dvn RT exactly, How would we know who was without 2:54:42.160 --> 2:54:44.959 that and what their pronouns may have been. 2:54:46.000 --> 2:54:48.520 Well, I do want to make a serious note about 2:54:48.520 --> 2:54:50.920 this because I've seen a lot of people who compare 2:54:51.000 --> 2:54:54.240 this to the dot com bubble, and this is so 2:54:54.320 --> 2:54:56.080 much worse because the dot com bubble and you look 2:54:56.120 --> 2:55:00.360 at the telecom bubble afterwards, right, there were actual assets there, right, 2:55:00.400 --> 2:55:02.080 you know, like the only way people talk about this 2:55:02.240 --> 2:55:02.480 is like. 2:55:02.480 --> 2:55:05.080 There was pets dot com, but there was real stuff too. 2:55:05.160 --> 2:55:09.160 Yeah, yeah, and you know what a telecom bubble goes under, Right, 2:55:09.200 --> 2:55:11.320 there's still a whole bunch of like fiber optic networks 2:55:11.320 --> 2:55:13.279 that they've set up that you could get you know, people, 2:55:13.320 --> 2:55:15.880 people with a bunch of money afterwards can come scrape 2:55:15.920 --> 2:55:18.640 up and there's there's a material basis something here these 2:55:18.760 --> 2:55:20.640 data centers, there's. 2:55:20.600 --> 2:55:24.720 They're not practical if the because and this is what 2:55:24.800 --> 2:55:27.320 the reason, because our colleague at Zetron had a big 2:55:27.760 --> 2:55:30.600 scoop last week that's getting a shitload of attention right 2:55:30.640 --> 2:55:34.320 now for good reason, which is that inference cost has 2:55:34.400 --> 2:55:38.640 been raising consistently for open Ai, which is increasing their 2:55:39.000 --> 2:55:41.840 like it's fucking their margins and it's increasing their losses, 2:55:41.879 --> 2:55:44.120 which is why they keep losing more money each quarter. 2:55:44.560 --> 2:55:48.400 And the idea behind why people thought open ai could 2:55:48.440 --> 2:55:51.400 be a good business is that these inference costs, which 2:55:51.400 --> 2:55:55.680 is basically how the cost that it takes to keep 2:55:55.800 --> 2:55:59.320 making the models better, right, that that was going to 2:55:59.480 --> 2:56:02.039 decline once they hit a certain level that like you're 2:56:02.040 --> 2:56:04.600 not going to need to it. It's super expensive to 2:56:04.600 --> 2:56:06.320 get the models to a point where they're good. But 2:56:06.320 --> 2:56:08.120 once they're good, then they get to be really cheap. 2:56:08.320 --> 2:56:10.800 And that's not really true based on the data that 2:56:10.840 --> 2:56:13.680 we have, and they were lying about it kind of, 2:56:13.800 --> 2:56:15.240 you know, they were not in a way that was 2:56:15.320 --> 2:56:17.840 legally actionable. They're not a publicly traded company that were 2:56:17.879 --> 2:56:20.440 not required to release this to the public. It does 2:56:20.480 --> 2:56:23.480 seem like they were honest with their investors, like Microsoft, right, 2:56:23.720 --> 2:56:27.360 they were lying to us, right to regular people, in 2:56:27.480 --> 2:56:30.080 order to pretend this was a business that had a 2:56:30.120 --> 2:56:32.440 lot better of a shot of being successful in the 2:56:32.440 --> 2:56:35.879 way it needs to be. The problem with AI as 2:56:35.920 --> 2:56:39.280 a money thing is not that there's no profit in this. 2:56:39.400 --> 2:56:41.720 It's not that there's no use for any of these tools. 2:56:41.760 --> 2:56:44.480 There are many uses, and there are many potential businesses. 2:56:44.760 --> 2:56:48.120 It's that none of them equal trillion dollars, which is 2:56:48.160 --> 2:56:51.640 what the minimum that they need to be profitable, right, 2:56:52.640 --> 2:56:54.840 And these data centers are all based on the bet 2:56:54.840 --> 2:56:56.840 that no, no, actually, this is a multi trillion dollar 2:56:56.879 --> 2:56:59.640 industry and we need this much compute, right. 2:57:00.440 --> 2:57:03.400 And this is this is the greatest misallocation of capital 2:57:03.400 --> 2:57:05.440 in human history. There has never been anything like this. 2:57:05.520 --> 2:57:08.240 There has never been crazy this much of the capital 2:57:08.320 --> 2:57:10.160 on Earth poured into. 2:57:10.280 --> 2:57:13.800 Nothing because there's there's not there's not even physical assets left, right. 2:57:14.120 --> 2:57:16.920 The physical assets are burned out graphics. 2:57:16.480 --> 2:57:18.520 Cards because a lot of these data centers aren't built 2:57:18.520 --> 2:57:20.800 and they don't last, right, that we're going to do Like, yes, 2:57:20.840 --> 2:57:23.040 they have a building, they have a building you can 2:57:23.120 --> 2:57:26.080 run power to, but the graphics cards don't last. 2:57:26.400 --> 2:57:29.600 Yeah, and you know, and at the end of this, 2:57:29.680 --> 2:57:32.440 right it's you. You have a bunch of buildings that 2:57:32.480 --> 2:57:36.080 don't do anything attached to like extremely expensive diesel generators. 2:57:36.360 --> 2:57:39.280 And I am praying. The one thing that makes me 2:57:39.320 --> 2:57:41.320 be like, I hope this goes down quickly is that 2:57:41.360 --> 2:57:44.000 I am praying that this bubble goes down before they 2:57:44.040 --> 2:57:46.560 actually start trying to build nuclear like really truly get 2:57:46.600 --> 2:57:48.800 off the ground building a buch of nuclear reactors, because 2:57:49.080 --> 2:57:52.840 can you imagine these guys who created a computer that 2:57:52.959 --> 2:57:56.760 can't win at chess trying to build nuclear reactors. 2:57:57.440 --> 2:57:58.600 I think we should let them do it. 2:57:58.640 --> 2:57:59.400 I agree, fuck it? 2:58:00.040 --> 2:58:01.240 Why not? Why not? 2:58:01.360 --> 2:58:02.240 Long for stalker? 2:58:02.640 --> 2:58:04.879 No, I mean it's one of the this is like, 2:58:04.959 --> 2:58:08.520 the point that is meaningful here is that after the 2:58:08.560 --> 2:58:11.279 dot com bubble, you were able to have a massive 2:58:11.280 --> 2:58:13.360 boom that created a bunch of wealth. It created wealth 2:58:13.400 --> 2:58:16.400 doing things that were often super bad for society, But 2:58:16.480 --> 2:58:20.520 it created a shitload of wealth because real infrastructure had 2:58:20.520 --> 2:58:23.400 been put in place that actually enabled the whole country 2:58:23.440 --> 2:58:26.680 to get connected it enabled the birth of like the 2:58:26.720 --> 2:58:29.840 mobile computing revolution and whatnot, because a lot of groundwork 2:58:29.879 --> 2:58:32.280 had been laid that was really meaningful, even though a 2:58:32.360 --> 2:58:34.360 number of the businesses involved in it didn't work out. 2:58:34.840 --> 2:58:37.440 And that's really not what we're seeing because it's hard 2:58:37.480 --> 2:58:41.800 to imagine assuming there's not a multi trillion dollar need 2:58:41.879 --> 2:58:45.120 for AI, assuming everyone isn't going to do everything for 2:58:45.160 --> 2:58:47.600 the rest of their lives through AI agents and do 2:58:47.680 --> 2:58:50.840 all of their thinking through chat GPT. Unless that's the 2:58:50.920 --> 2:58:54.440 reality we'rein, these are not good investments. And the only 2:58:54.440 --> 2:58:56.280 thing I can compare it to in terms of what 2:58:56.320 --> 2:58:57.520 you were saying to me about this being like the 2:58:57.520 --> 2:59:00.240 worst allocation of capital in history, because I've been reading 2:59:00.280 --> 2:59:04.320 a lot about like the nuclear arms race, and it 2:59:04.400 --> 2:59:07.080 was one of those things where you go from we've 2:59:07.160 --> 2:59:09.560 dropped tens of thousands of bombs over the course of 2:59:09.600 --> 2:59:13.240 five years to if we were to accidentally launch these 2:59:13.320 --> 2:59:15.760 ten missiles, it would be more explosive power than has 2:59:15.800 --> 2:59:18.280 ever been detonated in the entire history of human war 2:59:18.320 --> 2:59:21.000 added together up to the present moment. Right, Like that 2:59:21.240 --> 2:59:23.320 that is the because of and part of this was 2:59:23.440 --> 2:59:27.040 enabled by the actual like internet boom. Right the one 2:59:27.040 --> 2:59:29.560 that brought about Web two point zero in the social 2:59:29.560 --> 2:59:32.680 media era, right, like, all of that wealth and all 2:59:32.720 --> 2:59:36.600 of the money that poured into these vcs who'd gotten 2:59:36.600 --> 2:59:39.600 on board companies like Facebook that had to be created 2:59:39.680 --> 2:59:43.120 to allow something this irrational, because twenty years ago, if 2:59:43.160 --> 2:59:45.360 the technology had been there, there wouldn't have been the 2:59:45.400 --> 2:59:47.520 money to enable this kind of insanity. 2:59:47.600 --> 2:59:47.760 Yeah. 2:59:47.840 --> 2:59:49.760 Well, and I think the last thing, I mean, I guess, 2:59:49.800 --> 2:59:51.240 I guess there's two more things that I want to 2:59:51.240 --> 2:59:54.720 say about this. One is is that you know, this 2:59:54.840 --> 2:59:57.200 is also part of the cyclical economic crisis that we've 2:59:57.240 --> 3:00:00.200 been looking as since the seventies, which is that one 3:00:00.200 --> 3:00:01.960 of the ways you get these bubbles is that there 3:00:01.959 --> 3:00:06.400 are suddenly these unbelievably massive trillion dollar pool like trillions 3:00:06.440 --> 3:00:09.760 of dollars of pools of capital that you're trying to 3:00:09.800 --> 3:00:13.360 find something to invest in, right, you have to reproduce it. 3:00:13.400 --> 3:00:15.640 And this is one of the things that causes, for example, 3:00:15.680 --> 3:00:18.200 the Third World debt crisis in the seventies, is all 3:00:18.240 --> 3:00:21.120 of this capital flows into all of these there will 3:00:21.200 --> 3:00:23.880 debt things it eventually. This is one of the things 3:00:23.879 --> 3:00:27.840 that powers first the Japanese giant housing bubble that they 3:00:27.879 --> 3:00:30.760 did that caused the Asian market collapse in early nineties 3:00:31.160 --> 3:00:33.040 and then cost two thousand and eight is that there's 3:00:33.040 --> 3:00:34.560 all of these pools of capital they have to turn 3:00:34.600 --> 3:00:36.960 into more capital, and they can't do it. And when 3:00:36.959 --> 3:00:39.280 they can't do it, you get two thousand and eight, right, 3:00:40.160 --> 3:00:44.360 And they've been able to sort of hang on for 3:00:44.480 --> 3:00:47.959 about a decade, a decade and a half ish roughly, 3:00:48.560 --> 3:00:50.760 because there was so much money coming in from this 3:00:50.879 --> 3:00:53.200 from this tech sector. But everyone outside of the tech 3:00:53.240 --> 3:00:56.560 sector it sucks. It's bad. So this is part of 3:00:56.600 --> 3:00:59.879 the reason why everything feels unhinged right now, right Like, Okay, 3:01:00.040 --> 3:01:02.360 there's obviously kind of a problem with trying to track 3:01:02.680 --> 3:01:05.279 employment data just by seeing news of firings, because companies 3:01:05.320 --> 3:01:07.280 just do firings because it makes their stocks go up 3:01:07.600 --> 3:01:11.600 because it makes investors think they're being more efficient, which 3:01:11.640 --> 3:01:14.160 is nonsense, but it's why it feels like this is 3:01:14.200 --> 3:01:16.480 why you feel broke. And everyone is like talking about 3:01:16.520 --> 3:01:18.520 how the economy is growing, and it's like, well, yeah, 3:01:18.560 --> 3:01:23.480 this really small sector of tech has accumulated an unfathomable 3:01:23.520 --> 3:01:25.560 amount of wealth and they are getting very, very rich 3:01:25.600 --> 3:01:28.600 and everyone else is fucked, you know, And when this 3:01:28.720 --> 3:01:30.800 bubble colass, when these people take all of the money 3:01:30.800 --> 3:01:33.080 they got out of Tech and have thrown it into 3:01:33.720 --> 3:01:39.840 the metaverse and AI. When that blows up, it is 3:01:39.879 --> 3:01:43.480 going to be cataclysmic, and we're getting closer to it. 3:01:44.160 --> 3:01:46.040 Yeah. Yeah, the only one of them that will be 3:01:46.120 --> 3:01:51.240 left is Gab Newell sitting on his yes, finally releasing 3:01:51.320 --> 3:01:53.279 Half Life three. 3:01:54.480 --> 3:01:57.760 He could probably appoint himself dictator for life after that light. 3:01:58.160 --> 3:01:59.959 Yeah, he'll be the only one with money left. 3:02:00.120 --> 3:02:00.280 Else. 3:02:00.320 --> 3:02:04.400 Yeah, all of the money and gave Newle's pockets. We 3:02:04.520 --> 3:02:08.959 only ask that esteem we've had, We've we've had it 3:02:09.040 --> 3:02:10.160 replaced the military. 3:02:10.240 --> 3:02:14.080 Now, this is a basically the plot of yu Gi. 3:02:14.120 --> 3:02:17.320 Oh yeah, you think I'm joking, I'm actually no. 3:02:17.480 --> 3:02:19.440 I I never paid attention to the u G. 3:02:19.720 --> 3:02:19.920 Yeah. 3:02:20.400 --> 3:02:22.200 The plot of Yugo was the card game becomes so 3:02:22.280 --> 3:02:24.800 profitable that the guy who runs the card game company 3:02:24.800 --> 3:02:27.280 fights a battle with all the entire Builty industrial complex 3:02:27.280 --> 3:02:29.120 and defeats them because he's making more money than they are. 3:02:29.720 --> 3:02:34.720 So okay, yeah, I guess I think that's that That 3:02:34.840 --> 3:02:36.240 sounds better than what we're doing. 3:02:36.320 --> 3:02:38.840 Yeah yeah, yeah, okay. 3:02:39.160 --> 3:02:42.120 We can't get his fine with that mentoring tulip mania. Yeah, yeah, 3:02:42.200 --> 3:02:45.760 share the perfect historical comparison. Right, No one, you can 3:02:46.000 --> 3:02:49.720 eat a tulip bowl if you have to think they're poisonous. 3:02:50.360 --> 3:02:52.080 I don't think you can eat a tuli bowl. 3:02:52.800 --> 3:02:56.760 I shouldn't say that, but they're more edible than a 3:02:56.800 --> 3:03:00.000 graphics card. MIA is telling every listener to go out 3:03:00.280 --> 3:03:02.720 and find a tula bowl, then eat it. Putting this 3:03:02.800 --> 3:03:03.720 on my tombstone. 3:03:03.920 --> 3:03:09.680 More iliph and a graphics card, do it side by side. 3:03:09.800 --> 3:03:11.200 Don't do this, don't do that. 3:03:11.360 --> 3:03:15.200 If you have eulip, you can tag near on blue Sky. 3:03:15.480 --> 3:03:18.920 I write, okay, send her a picture of your face 3:03:19.000 --> 3:03:22.200 post tulip. If you've eaten one that, don't eat one 3:03:22.480 --> 3:03:24.240 on our account. 3:03:24.440 --> 3:03:24.600 Uh. 3:03:25.280 --> 3:03:29.480 Talking of other things not to do? Yeah, all right, 3:03:29.520 --> 3:03:44.440 fuck it. HiT's an ad for tulips. All right, we're back. 3:03:44.680 --> 3:03:49.040 And I am going to talk about a number of things. 3:03:49.080 --> 3:03:51.280 I guess the first thing I should talk about is 3:03:51.360 --> 3:03:59.680 the the sanctions and fto's designation for various leftist groups 3:03:59.840 --> 3:04:04.680 in Europe. There are four entities that the State Department 3:04:04.720 --> 3:04:08.119 has announced they've already been sanctioned, and I believe they'll 3:04:08.120 --> 3:04:10.440 be added to the FTO list either saiday or tomorrow 3:04:10.520 --> 3:04:13.160 as we're recording this, so it'll be on the Foreign 3:04:13.240 --> 3:04:16.760 Terrorist Organization list by the time you hear this on Friday. 3:04:17.320 --> 3:04:21.439 The four entities are called Anti for aust aka Hammerbund 3:04:21.600 --> 3:04:26.880 hammer Gang, the informal Anarchist Federation that's an Italian group. 3:04:27.120 --> 3:04:31.080 They use the initials f A I. Also they use 3:04:31.240 --> 3:04:34.560 fr I that is not the same as the FAI 3:04:34.840 --> 3:04:36.840 that you're familiar with from the Spanish Civil Wars. 3:04:36.840 --> 3:04:37.360 That's your thing. 3:04:38.280 --> 3:04:42.200 And then two Greek groups called Armed Proletarian Justice and 3:04:42.400 --> 3:04:44.760 Revolutionary Class Self Defense. 3:04:46.040 --> 3:04:48.320 Notes on the names, guys, I guess I shouldn't, but 3:04:48.360 --> 3:04:49.400 I have notes on the names. 3:04:49.440 --> 3:04:52.400 Yeah, yeah, well, I mean yeah, but the European leftist 3:04:52.440 --> 3:04:53.240 groups it's going to. 3:04:53.240 --> 3:04:55.880 Be yeah, yeah, of course it's going to be as 3:04:55.879 --> 3:04:58.120 many syllables as they can possibly have. 3:04:58.400 --> 3:05:03.119 Yeah, yeah, it is a alphabet soup. So a couple 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:05.959 of notable things here. The US doesn't seem to have 3:05:06.000 --> 3:05:09.520 coordinated with the states where these entities exist. For example, 3:05:09.560 --> 3:05:12.880 the German government and they prosecuted people who they've accused 3:05:12.920 --> 3:05:15.800 of being members of Anti for oust recently, I think 3:05:15.840 --> 3:05:18.200 it was in September, and they claimed that the threat 3:05:18.200 --> 3:05:22.480 of violence for them has quote decreased significantly, which is 3:05:22.480 --> 3:05:25.480 contradicting the claim that these are these are violent groups. 3:05:25.840 --> 3:05:29.160 The State Department, when it talks about anti for Oz, 3:05:29.200 --> 3:05:32.120 talked about a series of attacks in February twenty twenty three. 3:05:33.000 --> 3:05:36.280 What's missing from the analysis of February twenty twenty three 3:05:36.800 --> 3:05:39.520 is what was happening in February twenty twenty three. It 3:05:39.560 --> 3:05:44.000 was an event in Hungary which existed to honor Nazis. 3:05:44.080 --> 3:05:47.720 I don't mean Nazis like people who have a right 3:05:47.720 --> 3:05:51.240 wing political ideology. I mean like members of the NSDAP 3:05:51.400 --> 3:05:53.320 in Germany who fought in World War Two at the 3:05:53.360 --> 3:05:58.000 time when they were doing the Holocaust. The rally included 3:05:58.040 --> 3:06:02.400 several groups which were already sanctioned by US allies, including 3:06:02.480 --> 3:06:06.640 Blood and Honor Combat eighteen. Jesus, I'm not going to 3:06:06.680 --> 3:06:08.680 go into an in depth history of either of those groups. 3:06:09.280 --> 3:06:13.080 They're neo Nazi groups, right. That eighteen is Adolf Hitler 3:06:13.200 --> 3:06:17.520 one eight. These are the people who are, as far 3:06:17.560 --> 3:06:20.480 as I'm aware, the victims of that February twenty twenty 3:06:20.560 --> 3:06:26.680 three violence right. Notably, though Antifa oust was sanctioned by 3:06:26.920 --> 3:06:33.000 Hungry earlier. This year right Hungary under Auburn fast moving 3:06:33.040 --> 3:06:38.040 towards an extremely right wing I didn't think what political 3:06:38.040 --> 3:06:40.240 scientists like to call it an illiberal democracy. 3:06:40.360 --> 3:06:40.560 Right. 3:06:40.760 --> 3:06:42.760 This sucks to hear. I mean, with this news, I 3:06:42.800 --> 3:06:44.440 feel like we might need to pull out of Victor 3:06:44.520 --> 3:06:49.000 Orburn presents Hungary for comedy the upcoming Cool Zone headlined 3:06:49.080 --> 3:06:49.960 comedy festival. 3:06:51.560 --> 3:06:54.040 Yeah, so many of our famous comedian friends have been 3:06:54.040 --> 3:06:55.520 planning to join us. 3:06:57.320 --> 3:06:59.920 We are doing that show in Riad though. 3:07:00.800 --> 3:07:01.360 That's the lot. 3:07:01.760 --> 3:07:02.920 Yeah, that's still what yeah? 3:07:03.000 --> 3:07:04.480 Yeah, yeah. 3:07:04.760 --> 3:07:09.879 The other groups aren't explicitly anti fascist, right. 3:07:09.800 --> 3:07:12.440 Because this is getting framed support of Trumps like anti 3:07:12.520 --> 3:07:16.519 antifa crackdown. Yeah, I'm trying to find foreign terrorist organizations 3:07:16.560 --> 3:07:19.720 linked to antifa, But these other three groups are not 3:07:19.920 --> 3:07:22.119 explicitly like Antifa in name or scope. 3:07:22.120 --> 3:07:24.360 It seems no exactly, right, So most of them are 3:07:24.400 --> 3:07:29.440 anarchist groups. Right, and just to like delve very briefly 3:07:29.480 --> 3:07:31.600 in two lines into things that have literally written a 3:07:31.640 --> 3:07:35.560 book about anti fascism is a left unity position derived 3:07:35.560 --> 3:07:38.080 from the common term position that it adopted its Congress 3:07:38.080 --> 3:07:42.879 in nineteen thirty five. These groups do not call themselves 3:07:42.920 --> 3:07:46.160 anti fascist, right. There is a distinction between anarchism and 3:07:46.200 --> 3:07:48.560 anti fascism, which can be seen very acutely in the 3:07:48.560 --> 3:07:51.480 May nineteen thirty seven events of the Spanish Civil War. 3:07:52.120 --> 3:07:56.400 But these groups have neither claimed anti fascism, nor, as 3:07:56.400 --> 3:07:59.120 far as I'm aware, have any of them killed anyone. 3:07:59.600 --> 3:08:03.080 I believe believe that the antifa ost people being prosecuted. 3:08:03.160 --> 3:08:06.160 One of them is being prosecuted for attempted murder. In 3:08:06.280 --> 3:08:12.680 other cases they have been responsible for explosions or attempted bombings. Normally, 3:08:12.720 --> 3:08:15.000 to be designated in FDO, they would have to be 3:08:15.080 --> 3:08:18.920 a threat to either US people or the United States 3:08:19.000 --> 3:08:21.560 as an entity. Right there doesn't appear to be any 3:08:21.600 --> 3:08:24.240 evidence that these groups have any ties to anyone in 3:08:24.280 --> 3:08:26.720 the United States or present any immediate danger to the 3:08:26.800 --> 3:08:29.959 United States. I don't quite know where they got these 3:08:30.000 --> 3:08:31.760 particular groups from. 3:08:31.840 --> 3:08:35.960 It's so weird. It's a completely baffling list of groups, 3:08:36.040 --> 3:08:38.280 like even looking at like Greek anarchist groups. 3:08:38.320 --> 3:08:41.000 I mean, my guess is that someone in the Trump 3:08:41.040 --> 3:08:45.280 administration has a friend in or Bond's administration and ask 3:08:45.360 --> 3:08:48.680 them are some antifas we can go after that? You guys, 3:08:49.160 --> 3:08:51.320 like you know Europe, Yeah. 3:08:51.240 --> 3:08:53.840 The Greek anarchist groups specifically, are are some of the 3:08:53.920 --> 3:08:57.240 more interesting inclusions here. They're not the Greek anarchist groups 3:08:57.240 --> 3:08:59.879 you would expect them to be going after. 3:09:00.440 --> 3:09:01.640 It's very weird. 3:09:02.200 --> 3:09:05.680 Yeah, Like, they're not groups I was familiar with, like Miley, 3:09:05.920 --> 3:09:07.640 you know, I don't speak Greek, I don't I don't 3:09:07.800 --> 3:09:08.240 read Greek. 3:09:08.280 --> 3:09:08.520 I don't know. 3:09:08.560 --> 3:09:10.320 I don't pay that much attention to that part of 3:09:10.320 --> 3:09:10.640 the world. 3:09:10.640 --> 3:09:15.840 But like, there are other groups which are more notorious. Like, 3:09:16.360 --> 3:09:19.400 it's very odd that they've come up with the anti 3:09:19.480 --> 3:09:21.720 for OUST one. I agree, Garrison. I think the lineage 3:09:21.840 --> 3:09:25.160 is more obvious that the other three. Yeah, I'm not 3:09:25.280 --> 3:09:27.800 entirely clear on how they got to those of any 3:09:28.000 --> 3:09:31.080 you know, contact us if you have ideas. The other 3:09:31.240 --> 3:09:34.520 terrorist designation that happened this week, which is breaking as 3:09:34.560 --> 3:09:39.440 we record on Wednesday, the nineteenth of November, is that 3:09:40.200 --> 3:09:46.119 Greg Abbott has declared care this Center for American Islamic 3:09:46.160 --> 3:09:54.200 Relations and the Muslim Brotherhood as foreign terrorist organizations. Jesus yeah, 3:09:54.280 --> 3:10:00.600 Jesus Christ. Texas doesn't appear to have an FT list 3:10:00.640 --> 3:10:04.240 as far as I can tell. What this seems to 3:10:04.320 --> 3:10:08.520 be is a designation under SB seventeen, which parts passed 3:10:08.520 --> 3:10:11.800 earlier this year, which relates to property law. It would 3:10:11.879 --> 3:10:14.880 stop the Muslim Brotherhood or Care as a national five 3:10:14.920 --> 3:10:18.600 oh one C three renting or buying property in Texas. 3:10:19.360 --> 3:10:23.120 I'm not sure the Muslim Brotherhood intended to rent or 3:10:23.120 --> 3:10:27.119 buy property in Texas. Most of SB seventeen deals with 3:10:27.120 --> 3:10:30.040 with like nationals and entities linked to like China, Russia, 3:10:30.040 --> 3:10:32.360 and North Korea. It's trying to not have them by 3:10:32.440 --> 3:10:35.680 large chunks of Texas. But it also does have this 3:10:35.680 --> 3:10:40.080 this mechanism in it. So just Muslim Brotherhood is the 3:10:40.080 --> 3:10:43.680 sunniest limits organization. It has participated in violence, but not 3:10:43.720 --> 3:10:46.200 for some time. It has its origines in Egypt. It 3:10:46.240 --> 3:10:49.680 does a lot of like social programming Care most people 3:10:49.680 --> 3:10:50.480 will be familiar with. 3:10:50.680 --> 3:10:52.640 Right Care has already issued a. 3:10:52.560 --> 3:10:55.280 Response letter, and in their letter they said, quote, your 3:10:55.320 --> 3:10:58.240 proclamation has no basis in law or fact. You do 3:10:58.320 --> 3:11:01.040 not have the authority to you later any Americans or 3:11:01.040 --> 3:11:04.120 American institutions terrorist groups, nor is there any basis to 3:11:04.200 --> 3:11:07.520 level this smear against the organization. It's probably worth noting 3:11:07.520 --> 3:11:11.800 that there was a dog investigation into epic, not that epic, 3:11:12.040 --> 3:11:14.560 the one you're thinking of, probably, but this is the 3:11:14.600 --> 3:11:18.640 El Paso Islamic Center. That investigation was closed, right, but 3:11:18.680 --> 3:11:21.560 this is not the first time that they have attempted 3:11:21.640 --> 3:11:28.000 to u It's just very clearly in Islamophobia out of Texas, right, Like, 3:11:28.040 --> 3:11:29.120 that is what this is. 3:11:29.959 --> 3:11:32.680 There's also just an ancient sort of Obama era conspiracy 3:11:32.680 --> 3:11:35.000 where all of these people were all convinced that the 3:11:35.040 --> 3:11:36.960 Obama was part of the Muslim Brotherhood and that there 3:11:37.000 --> 3:11:39.240 was this whole network of Muslim Brotherhood operatives that were 3:11:39.240 --> 3:11:43.879 like running the country and really sort of if you 3:11:44.040 --> 3:11:46.240 squint hard enough, it was like, well, there's a bunch 3:11:46.280 --> 3:11:49.320 of people from the UAE who are kind of involved 3:11:49.400 --> 3:11:52.640 in some stuff, but this is like one of their 3:11:52.680 --> 3:11:56.160 they're kind of fusing this old school like old old 3:11:56.160 --> 3:12:00.760 schools a homophobic stuff with their like kind of very 3:12:00.840 --> 3:12:04.680 specific current contemporary targets by you guys sort of running 3:12:04.680 --> 3:12:06.119 these two together. Yeah, me, it's right. 3:12:06.160 --> 3:12:09.360 Like I think Ted Cruz has has tried to get 3:12:09.400 --> 3:12:12.400 the Muslim Brotherhood on the FTO list like several times. Yeah, 3:12:12.959 --> 3:12:15.520 there's this old like from like the golden age of 3:12:15.600 --> 3:12:19.320 right wing conspiracies, right, like the Bohemian Grove era. That's 3:12:19.360 --> 3:12:21.200 this idea that yeah, they're on like, it's like a 3:12:21.240 --> 3:12:23.800 fifty or one hundred year plan to bring the US 3:12:23.920 --> 3:12:28.320 under sharia lore and like, yeah, it's it's it's it's 3:12:28.360 --> 3:12:32.720 boomer stuff. Yes, combined with now trying to explicit eating 3:12:32.800 --> 3:12:36.280 them to Hamas, Right, So yeah, that that is great. 3:12:36.600 --> 3:12:37.760 That that's not great. 3:12:37.879 --> 3:12:39.000 I would not agree, James. 3:12:39.000 --> 3:12:41.039 I think that's not great. I'll be brave enough to 3:12:41.040 --> 3:12:42.119 say it. 3:12:42.320 --> 3:12:45.480 You know, it is a it's an assault on the 3:12:46.360 --> 3:12:48.720 First Amendment. Like, the the stuff. 3:12:48.400 --> 3:12:51.640 The inclusion of CARE is is like is absolutely outrageous. 3:12:51.840 --> 3:12:54.120 Care is a very respectability for like a civil rights 3:12:54.800 --> 3:12:57.280 like liberal civil rights. 3:12:56.440 --> 3:12:58.600 The least threatening organization in the world. 3:12:58.800 --> 3:13:03.000 Yeah, Like, and they have advocated for an end to 3:13:03.040 --> 3:13:05.519 the genocide of people in Palestine, which is a perfectly 3:13:05.680 --> 3:13:08.760 reasonable and legal thing to advocate for. They have not 3:13:09.040 --> 3:13:15.000 expressed support for political violence. Care is like as as 3:13:15.040 --> 3:13:18.120 protected by the First Amendment as things can be in 3:13:18.160 --> 3:13:23.240 this country. This is bonkers. So yeah, I guess CARE 3:13:23.360 --> 3:13:26.680 is already presumably preparing a call case. 3:13:27.320 --> 3:13:31.920 In other Texas news, a three panel judge in Texas 3:13:32.000 --> 3:13:37.360 just struck down Texas's newly drawn congressional map in federal court, 3:13:37.879 --> 3:13:42.880 with Trump appointed Judge Jeffrey Brown finding that quote, substantial 3:13:42.959 --> 3:13:47.240 evidence shows that Texas racially gerrymandered the twenty twenty five 3:13:47.360 --> 3:13:51.640 map unquote. The judge has required Texas use its previous 3:13:51.680 --> 3:13:57.080 twenty twenty one map for the upcoming midterm elections. What's 3:13:57.120 --> 3:14:01.720 really what's really funny here is that before the elections 3:14:01.760 --> 3:14:06.080 in November, where the California redistricting measure was up for vote, 3:14:06.400 --> 3:14:12.080 Newsom specifically removed language in that measure that framed the 3:14:12.240 --> 3:14:17.039 California redistricting as a triggering event, as in, if the 3:14:17.120 --> 3:14:20.440 Texas one passes, then the California one can go into effect. 3:14:20.879 --> 3:14:22.360 You've specifically removed this. 3:14:22.959 --> 3:14:24.480 Yeah, the trigger language was from MA. 3:14:25.800 --> 3:14:29.520 Which means that California now doesn't wipeout five Republican seats 3:14:30.320 --> 3:14:32.920 and Texas probably won't be able to do anything about it. 3:14:33.320 --> 3:14:37.199 That's still a challenge. The California gopire also trying to challenge. 3:14:37.400 --> 3:14:39.879 Yes, and this Texas case is set to be heard 3:14:39.920 --> 3:14:44.600 before the Supreme Court. There's a few other redistricting measures, 3:14:44.600 --> 3:14:48.800 I think in Louisiana and in North Carolina. A few 3:14:48.800 --> 3:14:51.760 other states are trying to do this. But there is 3:14:51.879 --> 3:14:55.080 a possible future in which Texas is not allowed to 3:14:55.240 --> 3:14:59.720 racially jerrymander and California is able to go forward with 3:14:59.760 --> 3:15:04.640 their redistricting because it may not have been specifically violating 3:15:04.959 --> 3:15:09.680 this like a racial gerrymandering aspect that Judge Jeffrey Brown 3:15:09.760 --> 3:15:12.640 found was affecting the Texas maps intentionally. 3:15:13.240 --> 3:15:17.320 The GOP claim is that California is quote favoring Hispanic voters. 3:15:17.760 --> 3:15:18.760 That's going good. 3:15:19.120 --> 3:15:22.400 It's gonna be a harder landing to stick, right, given 3:15:22.440 --> 3:15:25.520 that there are Latino people in every square mile of 3:15:25.600 --> 3:15:28.480 California like it. Yeah, it's going to be a rougher 3:15:28.560 --> 3:15:29.000 one for them. 3:15:29.200 --> 3:15:32.000 And specifically, the stuff that Judge Brown found is like 3:15:32.680 --> 3:15:35.520 in the way that these districts were redrawn, it was 3:15:35.600 --> 3:15:38.039 to totally exclude non white voters and some of these 3:15:38.040 --> 3:15:40.000 districts all right. 3:15:40.080 --> 3:15:42.080 One for the train fans in the audience. 3:15:42.400 --> 3:15:45.800 A section of railway that connects Warsaw to Lublin in 3:15:45.879 --> 3:15:50.080 southeastern Poland, which then connects onto Ukraine was destroyed by 3:15:50.160 --> 3:15:54.240 an explosion earlier this week. Overhead cables further down the 3:15:54.320 --> 3:15:58.600 track were also damaged. This comes as drone incursions into 3:15:58.600 --> 3:16:03.240 European space continue. Donald Tusk, the Police Prime Minister, called 3:16:03.240 --> 3:16:06.760 the ax sabotage, and it seems extremely likely that he 3:16:06.920 --> 3:16:07.880 is correct about that. 3:16:08.160 --> 3:16:08.280 Right. 3:16:09.080 --> 3:16:11.879 I guess we haven't explicitly covered this on ed. 3:16:12.120 --> 3:16:16.160 Very much, but there have been dozens of documented Russian 3:16:16.200 --> 3:16:21.320 operations in Europe since see the expanded invasion of Ukraine 3:16:21.400 --> 3:16:25.480 that began in twenty twenty one. What's concerning to me 3:16:26.000 --> 3:16:28.600 about this is that Europe is responding to some of 3:16:28.640 --> 3:16:32.240 these by accusing Russia of trying to quote destabilized polities 3:16:32.360 --> 3:16:37.760 by sending migrants there. It's likely true that Russia is 3:16:37.840 --> 3:16:42.240 messing with migration flows. It is demonstrably true in some cases. 3:16:42.360 --> 3:16:42.520 Right. 3:16:43.080 --> 3:16:47.760 Responding to this by hardening borders, deploying troops to borders 3:16:48.680 --> 3:16:52.640 is not the solution to that problem. Europe's Iron border 3:16:53.000 --> 3:16:57.120 kills more people than any other border, and hardening that 3:16:57.240 --> 3:16:59.000 border is only going to kill more people. Like, if 3:16:59.040 --> 3:17:01.920 you want to be the shining city on a hill, right, 3:17:01.959 --> 3:17:04.200 if you want to be, I think that title is 3:17:04.280 --> 3:17:06.720 maybe up for grabs. If you want to be the 3:17:06.840 --> 3:17:09.800 place that stands out as like a safe place for democracy, 3:17:10.360 --> 3:17:14.400 you don't do that by killing migrants. And so Europe's 3:17:14.440 --> 3:17:17.959 response to this is extremely disappointing, Right, and I wanted 3:17:18.040 --> 3:17:20.760 to highlight that because I don't see that in the coverage. Yes, 3:17:21.400 --> 3:17:26.000 Russia escalating it's meddling in Europe is extremely concerning. But 3:17:26.640 --> 3:17:29.960 if we accept that Russia is a totalitarian state or 3:17:30.080 --> 3:17:32.680 going in that direction, then we should also therefore accept 3:17:32.720 --> 3:17:34.400 that people are going to want to leave that in 3:17:34.480 --> 3:17:38.039 many other states where they cannot have autonomy, where they 3:17:38.080 --> 3:17:41.040 cannot live healthy and full lives, and we should welcome them. 3:17:41.560 --> 3:17:44.640 Talking of people leaving places where they cannot have autonomy 3:17:44.680 --> 3:17:46.840 and have full and happy lives, let's talk about immigration 3:17:46.920 --> 3:17:50.840 in the United States. Very quickly, Border Patrol and Gregory 3:17:50.959 --> 3:17:56.280 Bovino have moved their internal enforcement I of Sauron to Charlotte, 3:17:56.520 --> 3:18:00.640 North Carolina. Seems in large part due to to some 3:18:00.840 --> 3:18:03.240 racists on x dot com demining that they do so 3:18:03.680 --> 3:18:05.400 I shouldn't say in large part, I guess in some 3:18:05.600 --> 3:18:09.760 part there has been video already showing Bovino participating in 3:18:09.800 --> 3:18:12.560 detentions at a home depot car park. 3:18:13.160 --> 3:18:13.879 I've said two. 3:18:13.879 --> 3:18:15.800 Words there, which of coursed one of my colleagues a 3:18:15.879 --> 3:18:21.280 smirky giggle at me stand by both of them. So yeah, 3:18:21.320 --> 3:18:23.360 it is in part right due to x dot com 3:18:23.400 --> 3:18:28.160 the Everything website being a haven for racism. But I 3:18:28.240 --> 3:18:31.840 think it's also worth noting in twenty eighteen, Democratic sheriffs 3:18:31.879 --> 3:18:35.480 in five North Carolina counties ran on the platform of 3:18:35.720 --> 3:18:39.120 not cooperating with ICE. All of these I believe were 3:18:39.160 --> 3:18:43.440 black sheriffs, and ICE pushed back hard right, including with 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:47.960 a billboard campaign. Last year, the North Carolina Republican state 3:18:48.120 --> 3:18:52.000 Legislature over rode a veto to pass HB ten, which 3:18:52.080 --> 3:18:56.200 required agencies to cooperate with ICE and honor their detainers. 3:18:56.480 --> 3:18:59.760 A detainer is basically when ICE is like, hey, you've arrested. 3:19:00.400 --> 3:19:02.240 We want you to hold them for a bit longer 3:19:02.760 --> 3:19:05.120 so we can come pick them up for ICE reasons. 3:19:05.840 --> 3:19:10.480 Since then, Meckelberg County Sheriff McFadden has claimed that ICE 3:19:10.560 --> 3:19:13.800 has failed to collect people on detainers one hundred and 3:19:13.920 --> 3:19:17.560 sixty three times, So this will be. They normally have 3:19:17.600 --> 3:19:19.640 a forty eight hour detainer, right, they more than forty 3:19:19.680 --> 3:19:23.120 eight extra hours I should come get When they are 3:19:23.560 --> 3:19:25.520 held on the detainer, it is still the state that 3:19:25.640 --> 3:19:27.640 is responsible for them. It is a state that is 3:19:28.080 --> 3:19:30.400 paying for the cost of incarcerating that person. It is 3:19:30.440 --> 3:19:33.560 the state that is still incarcerating that person. Right. This 3:19:33.720 --> 3:19:37.960 has led, I guess, to Republicans claiming the McFadden is 3:19:38.040 --> 3:19:41.680 ignoring his obligation under HB ten. Mcfahnen says, isn't he 3:19:41.840 --> 3:19:43.680 is holding them for the duration of detainer, but then 3:19:43.760 --> 3:19:45.400 releasing them when no one comes to get them. 3:19:45.560 --> 3:19:45.680 Right. 3:19:46.520 --> 3:19:49.080 This has led to like CIS right, it's Center for 3:19:49.120 --> 3:19:52.640 Immigration Studies, and SBOC has designated it as a hate group. 3:19:53.440 --> 3:19:58.039 CIS has listed Charlotte and Mecklenburg County on its map 3:19:58.080 --> 3:20:01.800 of quote unquote sanctuary jurisdic There's a link to the 3:20:01.840 --> 3:20:03.280 map if you want to look at They actually cite 3:20:03.280 --> 3:20:05.680 the twenty eighteen policy and don't even mention HB ten. 3:20:05.800 --> 3:20:08.480 So it's unclear to me if they haven't updated this 3:20:08.600 --> 3:20:10.480 map or if they just believe that nothing has changed 3:20:10.480 --> 3:20:13.280 because they believe that HB ten is being ignored. I 3:20:13.480 --> 3:20:16.080 think that might be a lot of the reason why 3:20:16.160 --> 3:20:18.959 we're seeing this now. Then, finally, I want to talk 3:20:19.040 --> 3:20:23.879 about something local. Southern California, in Temecula, north of San Diego, 3:20:24.360 --> 3:20:27.880 seventeen year old boy was pulled over at gunpoint by 3:20:27.959 --> 3:20:30.800 a man who was known to locals as an ice agent. 3:20:31.320 --> 3:20:33.560 The man does not appear to have been in his 3:20:33.720 --> 3:20:37.640 professional capacity at this time. Neighbors were able to de 3:20:37.800 --> 3:20:42.160 escalate the situation and get Gerardo Rodriguez, the man in question, 3:20:42.320 --> 3:20:44.960 to stop pointing his gun at the teen. LA Tucker 3:20:45.080 --> 3:20:45.840 got video of this. 3:20:46.720 --> 3:20:47.280 It is wild. 3:20:47.400 --> 3:20:49.160 The guys just in the middle of the road with 3:20:49.320 --> 3:20:51.959 a handgun pointing out at a truck that's driving down 3:20:52.000 --> 3:20:56.600 the street. Rodriguez accuses the young man, he's seventeen years old, 3:20:56.600 --> 3:20:58.560 and we're going to say his name right as a child, 3:20:59.040 --> 3:21:02.800 of speeding in the neighborhood, not generally something that warrants 3:21:02.920 --> 3:21:06.640 drawing a firearm. Rodriguez was detained by the Riverside County 3:21:06.720 --> 3:21:10.400 Sheriff's Office. I believe he's bonded out now that this 3:21:11.000 --> 3:21:15.720 is an interesting development. Right elsewhere, like in Santa Ana, 3:21:16.240 --> 3:21:19.720 an agent pulled a gun on a community watch member. 3:21:19.879 --> 3:21:23.080 Fullerton police on the scene did not detain the person. 3:21:23.680 --> 3:21:27.040 They also refused to assist, right, they just kind of 3:21:27.120 --> 3:21:30.280 were present. But this is one of the few cases 3:21:30.320 --> 3:21:33.480 I'm aware of an ICE agent. There was someone else 3:21:33.840 --> 3:21:37.279 arrested in l A who I believe died. I believe 3:21:37.360 --> 3:21:40.280 that was a Border Patrol agent that first unfortunately passed 3:21:40.280 --> 3:21:42.880 away of an overdose. But this is one of the 3:21:42.920 --> 3:21:46.959 first instances I've seen of this, right, like a kind 3:21:46.959 --> 3:21:50.520 of a state federal a direct confrontation where this guy 3:21:50.600 --> 3:21:55.080 appears to have been pseudo claiming that he was acting 3:21:55.200 --> 3:21:57.600 under his authority as an ice agent. 3:21:57.680 --> 3:21:58.800 That's not entirely clear to me. 3:21:59.400 --> 3:22:02.000 The young man's parents that rushed a scene with the 3:22:02.080 --> 3:22:04.320 young man's passport, but by that point neighbors who had 3:22:04.320 --> 3:22:07.200 already been able to de escalate them. So yeah, I'm 3:22:07.240 --> 3:22:10.160 going to keep an eye on this because I think 3:22:10.200 --> 3:22:13.600 it's interesting. All Right, This week we have a fundraiser 3:22:13.680 --> 3:22:16.600 from Borderlands Relief Collective. I know they're helping a lot 3:22:16.680 --> 3:22:18.720 of people who need a lot of help right now, 3:22:18.840 --> 3:22:21.879 some folks whose roofs are really struggling to keep up 3:22:21.879 --> 3:22:24.480 with the recent rainstorms we've had in southern California. 3:22:25.120 --> 3:22:29.320 They have an Amazon wish list. The url is too 3:22:29.480 --> 3:22:30.039 long for. 3:22:30.120 --> 3:22:32.640 Me to read out to you, so we will include 3:22:32.680 --> 3:22:34.160 it in the show notes. If you'd like to help, 3:22:34.400 --> 3:22:37.039 you can look on that and buy something for someone. 3:22:37.480 --> 3:22:37.800 Thank you. 3:22:38.640 --> 3:22:43.320 All right, well, folks, this has been the news. Goodbye. 3:22:44.760 --> 3:22:45.680 We reported the news. 3:22:46.240 --> 3:22:54.200 We reported the news. Hey, We'll be back Monday with 3:22:54.480 --> 3:22:57.280 more episodes every week from now until the heat death 3:22:57.280 --> 3:22:57.920 of the Universe. 3:22:58.680 --> 3:23:01.160 It Could Happen Here is a product of cool Zone Media. 3:23:01.360 --> 3:23:04.400 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:23:04.520 --> 3:23:08.040 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:23:08.160 --> 3:23:11.680 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:23:11.760 --> 3:23:14.080 now find sources for It could Happen Here listed directly 3:23:14.120 --> 3:23:16.400 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.