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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it can Happened here a podcasts about things

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Speaker 3: falling apart and how to put them back together again.

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Speaker 3: I am your host, Nia Wong. So a week ago

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Speaker 3: we did some episodes about the election of Zora and

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Speaker 3: Mom Donnie and a lot of the very funny reactions

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Speaker 3: to it, and you know, on Executive Disorder, we've talked

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Speaker 3: about what this sort of means for politics. But now

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Speaker 3: I want to do a slightly different kind of episode,

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Speaker 3: which is looking at the challenge just that Montdomney is

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Speaker 3: going to face, attempting to implement his agenda, attempting to

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Speaker 3: stay mayor just taking him very seriously at his word

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Speaker 3: in his attempt to make the cost of living lower

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Speaker 3: and make people's lives better and there are unfortunately, very

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Speaker 3: significant challenges to this agenda, and those challenges are a

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Speaker 3: mix of structural problems and I don't know the president

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Speaker 3: of the United States, right. We're going to focus on

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Speaker 3: a few of them today, and before we really start this,

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Speaker 3: I think I want to start this to some extent

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Speaker 3: with the conclusion. And the conclusion of this episode is

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Speaker 3: not to say that these things are impossible, right, and

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Speaker 3: to not say they can't be done, but it's to

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Speaker 3: remind people that the way that actual politics works, electing

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Speaker 3: one person does not immediately make everything better.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: You can't stop or organizing because someone has been elected.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, if you actually want to see the

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Speaker 3: things that you you organize to you know, happen by

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Speaker 3: electing this person, do you have to organize even harder

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Speaker 3: once they are in power and mobilize even more to

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Speaker 3: allow the things that you fought for to actually happen.

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Speaker 3: Because there are significant opposition to anything you know, getting

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Speaker 3: better for anyone in this country. And that opposition is powerful,

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Speaker 3: well funded, well organized, and structural. And also, as we

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Speaker 3: saw with the election of Aunt Donnie in the first place,

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Speaker 3: it can be defeated. So we're going to start with

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Speaker 3: the bond market. Now, many of you may be asking, bio,

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Speaker 3: what what does the bond market have to do with

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Speaker 3: make buses free? And to do that we need to

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Speaker 3: talk about funding mechanisms. So most plans in the US

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Speaker 3: for sort of social democratic policy for how you implement

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Speaker 3: wellfare day policies, how you policies that make people's lives better,

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Speaker 3: tend to start from the federal governments and the national level, right,

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Speaker 3: and there are very obvious reasons for this. Unlike the

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Speaker 3: federal government, city governments don't issue their own currency, which

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Speaker 3: means the modern monetary theory, things that you would normally

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Speaker 3: use to fund welfare programs with at a national level

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Speaker 3: don't work. The federal governments, again, has control of its

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Speaker 3: own debt and money supply. City governments don't. That means

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Speaker 3: the city governments, if you want to find money to

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Speaker 3: do something, you have to find that from somewhere. And

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Speaker 3: as wonderful as it would be if you could simply

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Speaker 3: do that by just okay, we raise taxes, and the

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Speaker 3: taxes go to the policy that we want to implement,

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Speaker 3: that's not how the system actually works. The way the

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Speaker 3: system works if you want to pay for things at

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Speaker 3: a city level is the bond market. David Ibacker has

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Speaker 3: a very good piece about this the Baffler that I

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Speaker 3: deeply recommend people read. The main thing that's important here

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Speaker 3: for our purposes is that for funding significant portions of

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Speaker 3: anything that you want to do as mayor, you are

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Speaker 3: legally required to go through the bond markets. And this

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Speaker 3: means that the city is forced to beg for money

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Speaker 3: from Wall Street investment banks and then also pay those

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Speaker 3: same banks exorbitant fees and interest, and a significant amount

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Speaker 3: of money has to go to, as Backer points out,

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of you know, lawyers and finance people

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Speaker 3: and consultants and all of these you know, sort of

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Speaker 3: mafia of finance schools who are standing in between the

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Speaker 3: normal mechanism of you have money and you pay for things.

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Speaker 3: And that's assuming again that you even have the money

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Speaker 3: in the first place, which you quite often don't because

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Speaker 3: cities are very very often cash strapped. As Backer points out,

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Speaker 3: using these bond mechan to pay for programs is legally required. Now,

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Speaker 3: Backer is mostly focused on the structural constraints created by

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Speaker 3: servicing debt, which can consume increasing portions of a city's budget.

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Speaker 3: Until you know there's nothing left. This is sort of

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Speaker 3: what's happened to Detroit to a large extent. And also

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Speaker 3: the bank's direct control over the payment mechanism even when

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Speaker 3: the city government brings in tax money. Right, So, even

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Speaker 3: if you raise taxes and you bring in money, because

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Speaker 3: you have to go through the bond market, it means

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Speaker 3: that a bunch of that money is going to be

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Speaker 3: funneled into servicing debt and paying interest on debt. But

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Speaker 3: there's also a secondary problem here, which is that in

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Speaker 3: very extreme cases, and I'm not saying we are immediately

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Speaker 3: facing this, but I want to put this on the

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Speaker 3: table as something that if you are attempting to run

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Speaker 3: a social democratic program in a city, you do need

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Speaker 3: to be significantly worried about the bank's direct control over

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Speaker 3: payment Meaganisms means that the banks, you know, the people

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Speaker 3: who buy the bonds that you need to use to

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Speaker 3: get to fund these things. So let's actually take a

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Speaker 3: step back here and explain what a bond is.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: A bond is basically you selling a piece of paper

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Speaker 3: that is debt. So you go into the market and

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Speaker 3: you sell sell a bank of bond and they give

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Speaker 3: you a bunch of money, Right, now, and at the

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Speaker 3: exploration of the bond, you pay that money back plus interest.

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Speaker 3: This is how you have to fund things, because that

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Speaker 3: is what's legally required, and also because cities need a

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Speaker 3: way to get extremely large amounts of money. But this

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Speaker 3: also means that cities that you know, banks and investors

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Speaker 3: can simply not buy your bonds if they don't like

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Speaker 3: what you're trying to do, and at that point very

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Speaker 3: little can be done to oppose them. The most dramatic

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Speaker 3: version of this problem came to the New York City

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Speaker 3: bond crisis in nineteen seventy five, where New York City

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Speaker 3: had to sell a bunch of bonds. It was significantly

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Speaker 3: in debt, and there's a very famous scene in I

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Speaker 3: think It's I think it's a hyperdormalisation. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: film of like the city government officials who were sitting

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Speaker 3: in this room waiting for the banks, like people, for

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Speaker 3: the banks to show up to buy the bonds, and

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Speaker 3: no one shows up, so suddenly they don't have any money.

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Speaker 3: And then President Ford at the time tells the city

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Speaker 3: to eat shit and die and refuses to buy any

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Speaker 3: of New York City's bonds, refuse to give them any money,

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Speaker 3: and this leaves the city bankrupt. Right, it gets to

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Speaker 3: a point where they have fired the teachers, there's no

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Speaker 3: one to collect garbage because they literally don't have money

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Speaker 3: to pay anyone because no one will buy their bonds.

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Speaker 3: And eventually this crisis is sort of mitigated. But the

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Speaker 3: problem is that, you know, the task force that was

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Speaker 3: set up to mitigate this right to like, you know,

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Speaker 3: get there to be people buying New York City bonds. Again,

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Speaker 3: those people were able to come in and New York

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Speaker 3: City had a functional welfare state, right, had a sort

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Speaker 3: of many social democratic welfare state. And in order to

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Speaker 3: reopen the governments and have schools and garbage collection again,

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Speaker 3: in order to get that money, the city was required

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Speaker 3: to dismantle it. And you know, the financial situation of

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Speaker 3: New York is obviously significantly better than it was then, right,

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Speaker 3: And the odds of having this kind of just full

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Speaker 3: on macro scale crisis is not as high as it

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Speaker 3: was then. But because of the fact that this is

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Speaker 3: the legally mandated way that you have to do these payments,

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Speaker 3: and because unlike the federal government, there are constraints on

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Speaker 3: spending that in some ways function like needing for an

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Speaker 3: exchange currency. You know, you can't just issue this money.

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Speaker 3: You have to get it from somewhere, and because of

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Speaker 3: someone's usually the banks, it means that you have to

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Speaker 3: constantly negotiate with the banks and with capital in order

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Speaker 3: to keep the city's lights on. And this is a

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Speaker 3: constant threat that they have sort of, you know, hanging

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Speaker 3: over the head of anyone who wants to be governor.

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Speaker 3: And as Backer points out, you can even just tax

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Speaker 3: your way out of the problem because payment structures for

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Speaker 3: government projects work out of the bond system, so that

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Speaker 3: money just goes to debt payments. And you know, one

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Speaker 3: of the other things that Backer points out. And obviously

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Speaker 3: the situation in Chicago is different than the situation in

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Speaker 3: New York. But the Chicago teachers Union did elect a

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Speaker 3: mayor who was, you know, their guy, right, The cholot

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Speaker 3: teachers Union spent a significant amount of money and resources

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Speaker 3: and effort getting their guy elected, and once he came

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Speaker 3: into office, he basically ended up doing the same thing

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Speaker 3: in their negotiations with the teachers union that the previous

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Speaker 3: administrations had done. And the reason that happened, you know,

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Speaker 3: and the reason that you started to see cuts to

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Speaker 3: school services that we're not supposed to happen, but did anyways,

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Speaker 3: was because the bond market stepped in and said this

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Speaker 3: is what's necessary in order to do this, and they

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Speaker 3: have that kind of power. Now, obviously Chicago was in

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Speaker 3: a worse financial situation than New York is. Mom Doominie

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Speaker 3: is significantly further left than Brandon Johnson is. But these

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Speaker 3: are real constraints, and the such a democratic solution to

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Speaker 3: this has always been to get money from the federal governments.

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Speaker 3: But the federal government won't give money out to the

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Speaker 3: things that is legally required to give money out to

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Speaker 3: you right now, because obviously it is run by one

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, and obviously Trump in and of himself is

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Speaker 3: a significant problem to doing this right. There's always a

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Speaker 3: chance that Trump will see something like mean about Mom

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Speaker 3: Donnie on Fox News and decide to send the National

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Speaker 3: Guard to New York or something, and you know, he

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Speaker 3: will probably continue immigration raids. He can, you know, just

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Speaker 3: fuck with people's ability to get Medicaid payments, which is

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Speaker 3: a really significant issue. There will continue to be lots

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Speaker 3: of creative and terrible things that the federal government can

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Speaker 3: and will due to this administration that will have to

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Speaker 3: be fought and can be defeated, but will have to

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Speaker 3: be organized and fought against. But for our purposes right now,

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Speaker 3: the big issue here is that you can't get money

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Speaker 3: out of the federal government. So okay, where are you

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Speaker 3: getting money out of then? And the answer is the

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Speaker 3: state government. Now do you know what else gets money

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Speaker 3: out of state governments? Probably not these products and services.

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Speaker 3: I don't know who knows, who knows? We are back,

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Speaker 3: So okay, let's talk about the state government now again.

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Speaker 3: This even with the city the size of New York,

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Speaker 3: there still is always significant negotiations in order to do

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Speaker 3: you thinks in the city that require the aid of

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Speaker 3: the state level government. And part of the problem here

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Speaker 3: is that the New York State Democratic Party is significantly

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Speaker 3: responsible for the Republican's control of the House, particularly in

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty two cycle. There's a whole long story

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Speaker 3: here about how a bunch of a bunch of the

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Speaker 3: Democrats wanted to form this sort of moderate caucus thing,

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Speaker 3: where the sort of independent caucus that would caucus with

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Speaker 3: the Republicans in order to give the Republicans the ability

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Speaker 3: to stop any sort of liberal or left wing thing

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Speaker 3: from happening. In the state governments and handle a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of seas over to the Republicans because of it.

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Speaker 3: But just you know, setting all of that aside, the

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Speaker 3: place that you can get money from would be from

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Speaker 3: the governor's office. Unfortunately, that significate problem. So here's Hotel's

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Speaker 3: response to Mamdami's plan to make buses free. Quote, I

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Speaker 3: cannot set forth a plan right now that takes money

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Speaker 3: out of a system that relies on fares of the

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Speaker 3: buses in the subways. But can we find a path

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Speaker 3: to make it more affordable for people who need help? Yes,

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Speaker 3: of course we can. So Hotel does not want to

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Speaker 3: raise taxes. Any proposal that would involve raising taxes probably

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Speaker 3: has to run through New York City's City Council, and

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Speaker 3: thus through her. I'm going to quote this some spectrum

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Speaker 3: news about Mundammy's propos to expand universal childcare. Culchel said

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Speaker 3: she's also looking at expanding a universal childcare program statewide.

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Speaker 3: But the total price tag is fifteen billion dollars childcare

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Speaker 3: I already committed to, she said. I'm committed to this

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Speaker 3: as a mom governor, I get it, but also to

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Speaker 3: do it statewide's about fifteen billion dollars the entire amount

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Speaker 3: of my reserves. Cultural says she prefers to phase an

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Speaker 3: expansion first within certain aide groups and geographically underserved communities.

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Speaker 3: So okay, what is happening here in a macro sense

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Speaker 3: is that Cultural is trying to slow roll both of

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Speaker 3: these things. She is outright opposed to making buses free.

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Speaker 3: She wants to do weird means testing stuff to it

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Speaker 3: that will make it very difficult to do and extremely

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Speaker 3: annoying bureaucratic layer meant to deny people services that you

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Speaker 3: have to do instead of just having them be free.

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Speaker 3: The childcare thing she probably does want to do, but again,

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Speaker 3: because she is not a democratic socialist, because she is

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Speaker 3: a regular Democrat, she wants to do it slowly, banded

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Speaker 3: through a whole bunch of phases and taking a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of time.

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Speaker 6: And this is a.

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Speaker 3: Pretty significant problem because you know, at every step of this,

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Speaker 3: not only are you going to have to be negotiating

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Speaker 3: with the banking system, you're going to have to be

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Speaker 3: negotiating with the statewide Democratic Party. And the statewide Democratic

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Speaker 3: Party is fairly conservative. Hotel is not as conservative, and

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Speaker 3: she can be sort of dragged kicking and screaming into

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Speaker 3: good policies like what happened with congestion pricing. And if

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Speaker 3: something works and is really popular after you do it,

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Speaker 3: she will sign on to it. But it's a significant

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Speaker 3: hurdle that you.

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Speaker 7: Have to deal with.

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Speaker 6: I want to move from this into a kind of

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Speaker 6: related problem that's a more structural constraint on Ondami's time

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Speaker 6: in office, which is that he is now in charge

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Speaker 6: of running a capitalist economy. When you take a position

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Speaker 6: in a capitalist government, it is now your job to

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Speaker 6: make the economy run, and that means maintaining economic growth.

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Speaker 6: But okay, what does economic growth actually mean in a

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Speaker 6: capitalist economy. It means that corporations make more money than

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Speaker 6: they did the year before. And this is a structural

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Speaker 6: problem for all of us because we all have interests

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Speaker 6: that are diametrically opposed to corporations making more money every

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Speaker 6: year because their profit comes directly from our exploitation. Right,

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Speaker 6: we have fundamentally opposed interests from the corporations and the

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Speaker 6: capitalists and the billionaires. But in order for there to

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Speaker 6: be capitalist economic growth, those people have to keep making

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Speaker 6: more money every year.

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Speaker 3: And obviously, you can make arguments about how redistribution enhances

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Speaker 3: economic growth by creating a larger consumer base, and that's

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Speaker 3: obviously true. We're in an extremely deformed economy right now.

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Speaker 3: Where as I keep saying on this show, fifty percent

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Speaker 3: of all consumer spending is happening from five percent of

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Speaker 3: the population, which is just a completely unsustainable way to

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Speaker 3: run an economy and is also absolutely miserab for every

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Speaker 3: single other person who's in that bottom ninety five percent.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there are things that you can do

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Speaker 3: to some extent, right but at some point you are

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Speaker 3: going to have to choose between workers and capital. And

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Speaker 3: if you're the mayor of New York City, your job

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Speaker 3: is to make capital more money. And this is a

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Speaker 3: structural constraint that every social democratic government has faced. And

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Speaker 3: it's worth noting that we are not in a world

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Speaker 3: that is surrounded by social democratic governments. And part of

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Speaker 3: the reason why, again is that they need the economy

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Speaker 3: to keep growing and that they're reliant on finance institutions

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Speaker 3: to make money. And the most grim versions of this

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Speaker 3: tend to happen at a sort of national scale. But

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Speaker 3: if you look at morally in Jamaica in the seventies,

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Speaker 3: where you have a democratic socialist who gets elected and

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Speaker 3: is running Jamaica and then has to implement austerity because

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Speaker 3: the country runs out of money and the IMF comes in. Right,

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Speaker 3: these things can get really bleak now they don't have to,

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Speaker 3: right Like, sufficiently well organized populations can force the hand

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Speaker 3: of capital to do things that they don't want to do.

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Speaker 3: Significantly well organized populations can you start trying to fundamentally

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Speaker 3: redistribute economic power. But it's difficult, and the difficulty is

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Speaker 3: magnified by the third really massive constraint, and that constraint

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Speaker 3: is the police. One of the other big structural problems

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Speaker 3: that comes with the running a state is that it

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Speaker 3: relies on armed men to enforce the laws, and those men,

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Speaker 3: especially in the United States, are at best one step

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Speaker 3: removed from straight up neo Nazis. A lot of them

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Speaker 3: straight up are neo Nazis. The cops are the most

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Speaker 3: consistently right wing group in the entire country. They are

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Speaker 3: a bunch of racist shitheads who exist to perpetuate right

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Speaker 3: supremacy and protect capital, and they're also again fundamental organizational

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Speaker 3: unit of the state. Right without the violence of the police,

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Speaker 3: laws are just suggestions, and if you're going to run

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Speaker 3: a capitalist government, if you're going to run one in

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Speaker 3: the US, you have to deal with the fact that

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Speaker 3: your power depends on the loyalty of a bunch of Nazis,

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Speaker 3: and these people will riot if you attempt to do

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Speaker 3: oversight of them. They very famously did this in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety two. They had this whole giant riot, right, They

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Speaker 3: had the thing that was supposed to be a protest

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Speaker 3: rally where they all went on strike, and then the

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Speaker 3: cops who were supposed to be policing the protest obviously

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Speaker 3: didn't do anything because again there are also cops. And

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety two, I did this for a really

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Speaker 3: really really minor oversight tempted oversight, right, And obviously they

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Speaker 3: actually didn't win that direct fight, but they were able

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Speaker 3: to cause enough of a political ship storm that they

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Speaker 3: were able to force the last sort of like vaguely

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Speaker 3: social democratic mayor out of power and install like Rudy Giuliani,

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Speaker 3: who is a weird face, melty dipshit right, who's an

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Speaker 3: incredible tough on crime right winger. And obviously Mamdani has

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Speaker 3: been trying to kind of trying to do his best

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Speaker 3: to negotiate with the police and not to overtly threaten them,

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Speaker 3: but that kind of doesn't matter because they just hate him,

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Speaker 3: like they think that a Muslim socialist is just inherently

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Speaker 3: an illegitimate person, and they think that anyone who is

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Speaker 3: even vaguely liberal is someone who is their enemy and

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Speaker 3: who is their target. And we have seen them take

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Speaker 3: actions to just directly threaten mayors fairly recently. Right in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, they kidnapped Bill de Blasio's daughter at a

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Speaker 3: protest and then sort of like paraded her mugshot around

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Speaker 3: and posted it everywhere and did this whole big show

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Speaker 3: of how they were holding her. To say it was

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Speaker 3: a thinly veiled threat is a dramatic understatement of how incredibly,

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Speaker 3: incredibly blatant this threat was. Right, they kidnapped the mayor's daughter, Drea,

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Speaker 3: in a protest movement, and that was Bill de Blasio,

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Speaker 3: who was not some kind of like wild anti police

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Speaker 3: radical right, and especially now as sort of fascism is

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Speaker 3: on the march, and with the backing of the US

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Speaker 3: federal government, right, the police form a very significant threat

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Speaker 3: to Mandami's ability to do anything. Both on a sort

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Speaker 3: of political level, they are going to be constantly you know,

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Speaker 3: putting out giant press releases about how Mamdami's like turn

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Speaker 3: the city into unliverable hellhole and how they can't do

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Speaker 3: their jobs, ceda, et cetera. And also just in terms

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Speaker 3: of just directly threatening him and trying to influence his policy,

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Speaker 3: they're going to be a real problem, and his ability

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Speaker 3: to prevent them from, for example, smashing in the skulls

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Speaker 3: of pro Palesime protesters, even if he wants to, was

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Speaker 3: going to be very limited because the police have become

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Speaker 3: a kind of semi autonomous fascist force in this country.

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Speaker 3: They have always been a ticking time bomb on statius democracy,

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Speaker 3: and that clock is closing in on zero in this

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Speaker 3: in this sort of moment of assented fascism. Now again,

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Speaker 3: I want to close this by saying, these are not

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Speaker 3: all the challenges that he's going to face, but Comma,

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Speaker 3: none of this also means that that the things that

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Speaker 3: he wants to do to make people's lives better are impossible.

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Speaker 3: Every single one of these problems are problems that you

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Speaker 3: can defeat by organizing. Right, you can put enough pressure

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Speaker 3: on capital to prevent them from doing a kind of

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Speaker 3: like capital striker or a bond struck Right, to force them

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Speaker 3: they continue to fund things. Right, with enough public pressure,

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Speaker 3: you can make a whole lot of things happen. You

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Speaker 3: can make the police, you know, at the very least

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Speaker 3: be acting on a kind of defensive front to where

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Speaker 3: they're not, you know, rioting and try to run city politics,

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Speaker 3: but are kind of forced by mass popular and mobilization

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Speaker 3: and pressure to at the very least not be openly

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Speaker 3: attacking the mayor. You can put massive political pressure on

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Speaker 3: Kathy Cultel to you know, do things that are good,

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Speaker 3: which which is how we got how New York got

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Speaker 3: congestion pricing in the first place. Right like that, that

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Speaker 3: was a result of a masses like organizational campaign that

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Speaker 3: went extremely well, and hushov like tried to sabotage it

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Speaker 3: because she thought it would be unpopular, and eventually it

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Speaker 3: got implemented and it's really popular now and now she's

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Speaker 3: really in favor of it. So these people can be

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Speaker 3: pushed around, right, They are not invincible, Their victory is

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Speaker 3: not inevitable. They can be defeated and they can be

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Speaker 3: forced to accept that, Oh wait, hold on, the extremely

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Speaker 3: sensible policies that we want that make our lives better

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Speaker 3: are good, and that requires mobilization. But you know that's

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Speaker 3: not impossible. We know how to organize. We've been doing

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Speaker 3: it for ages, and it was you know, what had

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Speaker 3: happen to make all of this possible in the first place.

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Speaker 3: And so instead of demobilizing now and going, oh, our

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Speaker 3: jobs are done. No no, no, no, no, our job our jobs

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Speaker 3: have just begun. But you know, the better organized we

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Speaker 3: are and the more we're able to push this and

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Speaker 3: the more we're able to push all of these people,

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Speaker 3: the better our lives will get. And this election to

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Speaker 3: begin with, is a reminder that another world is possible

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Speaker 3: and it can be.

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Speaker 6: Better than this one.

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Speaker 7: We just have to build it together.

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Speaker 6: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, joined

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Speaker 6: by Robert Evans. Last week, I released an episode on

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Speaker 6: the ascent of white nationalist live streamer Nick Fuentes and

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Speaker 6: his Graper fans among particularly young gen Z Republicans. The

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Speaker 6: episode also tracked the conservative infighting at Heritage Foundation and

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Speaker 6: Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire in the aftermath of Tucker Carlson's

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Speaker 6: friendly sit down interview with Nick Fuenttes. In the episode,

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Speaker 6: I mentioned that I had an extra segment covering the

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Speaker 6: final section of the interview. Now, most coverage of this interview,

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Speaker 6: including my episode last week, focused on like the first

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Speaker 6: two thirds, which ranged from like Nick Fuentes's political background,

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Speaker 6: early beef with Ben Shapiro and his like Nazisque anti

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Speaker 6: Semitic theories of a quote unquote organized world jewelry corrupting America,

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Speaker 6: which he now lightly couches in anti Israel framing to

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Speaker 6: profit off of the genocide in Palestine. But the last

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Speaker 6: third of the interview changes course to discuss the mechanisms

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Speaker 6: of quote unquote reality distortion which are ruining young men, drugs, alcohol,

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Speaker 6: the Internet, and most importantly, pornography. After receiving a universal

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Speaker 6: response demanding the release of the porn cut, I have

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Speaker 6: sat down with Robert here to finally finally air what

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Speaker 6: no other news platform is brave enough, brave enough to cover?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, no, what new other news platform can legally

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Speaker 2: cover because they have a duty to their employees to

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Speaker 2: not make them research this stuff.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, or like an actual healthy HR department.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have not. We have not finished our classes

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Speaker 2: on what we're not allowed to make people do. So

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Speaker 2: said now, to be fair, Garrison couldn't be stopped from

436
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: researching this. There was no there was no way of

437
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: stopping you from doing this.

438
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 6: I have a sick drive.

439
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: You would have started working for someone else, so we

440
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: didn't let you do this.

441
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 6: No, if Sophie, if Sophie told me I wasn't allowed

442
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 6: to cover this, I would have quit immediately.

443
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd started working for Wired or someone.

444
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 6: So now I am very pleased to present to you

445
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 6: probably thirty thirty minutes of Nick Fuentt as explaining to

446
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 6: a performatively confused Tucker Carlson the concept of pornography. And

447
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 6: I guess if we're gonna view you know, Fuenttes and

448
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 6: the Gropers as like a serious, legitimate threat that's able

449
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 6: to sway national political discourse, I think it's also important

450
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 6: to cover his weird sexual politics, just as explaining the

451
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 6: weird sexual practices of like, you know, the Proud Boys

452
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 6: is important for understanding their whole deal as like a

453
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 6: neo fascist streak gang. The kind of closeted gay in

454
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 6: cel women issues of the Gropers is actually really important,

455
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 6: especially for Nick, and let's discuss that. But thankfully we

456
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 6: get to start off with the majority majority of this section,

457
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 6: which is which is on pornography let's start one of

458
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 6: the first clips.

459
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 8: What is porn exactly? Like, describe how available is porn?

460
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 8: What is it?

461
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 9: My God?

462
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: Because he does ask that like a man who's legitimately

463
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: never heard of pornography, he does.

464
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 6: He later says like, obviously he is familiar with the

465
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 6: rough concept of port uh huh, but maybe not, but

466
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 6: maybe not this sort of Internet pored obsession, to which

467
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 6: Nick refers, let's let's skip ahead about a minute where

468
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 6: Nick kind of closes on his explanation of Internet porn specifically.

469
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 4: So, something that has almost never talked about is that

470
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 4: this is a generation that's totally sexually dysfunctional. I think

471
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 4: because of pornography, and some people are able to cope

472
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 4: with it. Some people don't have a problem, but I

473
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: think a lot of people, and maybe even a small minority,

474
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 4: have a serious problem with that.

475
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 7: And the problem people sexually dysfunctional.

476
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 4: I think that it's impossible for a real woman to

477
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: compete with the availability and the novelty of pornography.

478
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 6: So that is Nick's kind of ending argument at the

479
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 6: tail end of his definition of porn and how porn

480
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 6: is affecting specifically American men. A little bit of his

481
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 6: in cel status is obviously seeping through there. More of

482
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 6: it will become increasingly evident throughout throughout this interview. But

483
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 6: this idea of sexual dysfunction, how porn is ruining men's

484
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 6: ability to get into relationships, is ruining the ability to

485
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 6: get into marriages, lasting marriages. And he frames this kind

486
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 6: of slightly as the fault of men, but also really

487
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 6: as the fault of women. Women aren't able to compete

488
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 6: with how much porn there is, the different categories of porn.

489
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 6: How can one woman please a man when a man

490
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 6: can go on to the Internet and look up, you know,

491
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 6: fifty different niche fetishes that not one woman could. Yeah,

492
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 6: and that's that's part of his argument at this point.

493
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's always like been the Okay, so you've

494
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: just you've never had a relationship.

495
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 6: Which Nick is open about at least Nick claims that, right. Yeah,

496
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 6: It's unclear how true a lot of Nick's claims are

497
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 6: about his like in cell vall cell in voluntary celibate

498
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 6: yea type deal, but no Nick Nick does claim that,

499
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 6: and the sort of pushback Nick will receive later on

500
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 6: in the interview on some of these aspects is actually

501
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 6: way stronger than any of the world jewelry, anti Semitic

502
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 6: stuff from earlier in the interview, which Carlson was vague

503
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 6: actually kind of like trying to shape Nick quent as

504
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 6: his rhetoric to make him like appeal to a bigger audience,

505
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 6: but did not really push back on to the same

506
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 6: extent he does on a Nick's like relationship with women.

507
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 6: But the sexual dysfunction aspect, I think is the is

508
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 6: the ending argument for Nick here in terms of what

509
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 6: actually makes porn bad. He extrapolates on this point in

510
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 6: this next section which I'll play Now.

511
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 4: Porn is you could have one hundred different women in

512
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 4: one sitting doing anything that whatever niche or idiosyncratic thing

513
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 4: a person might be into, it's there. And so I

514
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: think that novelty, combined with that availability, it makes it

515
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 4: so that you know, when you think about courting a woman,

516
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: juice isn't worth the squeeze. And so there's like also

517
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 4: a problem of like a rectile dysfunction, people that can't

518
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: enjoy regular sex because it does not compare to the

519
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 4: intensity the novelty and the availability of porn. It's hyper stimulation,

520
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: and so I think that's sabotaging a lot of normal

521
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 4: sexual relationships.

522
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 8: It seems like it's making a lot of people gay too. Yeah,

523
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 8: and trance. You think that's true one hundred percent?

524
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 7: What is that?

525
00:30:59,360 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god?

526
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 6: What is that? I don't even know where to start there.

527
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: I mean, like it's it's what these people have always believed,

528
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: right that, Like, that's the There's got to be an explanation.

529
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 6: Some kind of cause why people like.

530
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: Things that that they're not allowed to admit to liking

531
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: in public. And it's got to be the fault of pornography, right,

532
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: or libraries whatever.

533
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 6: Every time Tucker interjects the beauty of his of his

534
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 6: little like befunneled interjections, what is that? Is that real?

535
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 6: Is that true?

536
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: Huh?

537
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 6: It's it's fantastic, But yeah, no, I mean Nick kind

538
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 6: of blames the rise in homosexuality and transsexuality on this

539
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 6: like novelty of pornography and this sexual desensitization like once

540
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 6: regular poor and it doesn't do it for people. They

541
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 6: get pushed to more and more extreme categories, of which

542
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 6: transport is somehow particularly effective at like influencing and uh,

543
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 6: you know, manipulating human behavior. Right, This is like the

544
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 6: sissy hypno theory that porn can like make somebody trans Yeah,

545
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 6: very goofy stuff, specifically for Nick, considering his curious catboy

546
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 6: background and his alleged leak viewership of trans porn, which

547
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 6: we might we might discuss later. I want to play it,

548
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 6: play another clip kind of on this note, a shorter one.

549
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 4: I think that if you are somebody that uses pornography

550
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: multiple times per day, which many people do.

551
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 8: Actually, oh, absolutely, what's a lot of jerking off. That's

552
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 8: a huge problem. Yeah, that's a lot of cherking off.

553
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 6: Former Fox News anchor Tucker car Off. Yeah, that's a

554
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 6: lot of jerk it off. I so badly. I just

555
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 6: wanted to cut some of these clips out of like

556
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 6: out of contact, just put them in my other episode.

557
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: Tucker only comes once a year, and he can only

558
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: come by wrapping his dick in side of two frozen

559
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: Swanson's meals. He's got to kind of use like you

560
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: know how it's got like there's little divots on the

561
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: back end. He's got to use that to cushion his penis.

562
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: It's the only way he can come.

563
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 6: It's a fairly edipal thing with his you know, family business.

564
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 6: This this sort of like psychosexual drive. Wow, the Swans

565
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 6: and of it all. Of course, that makes sense for Yeah,

566
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 6: that makes sense for Tucker h But no, and Dick

567
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 6: says that porn like operates kind of like drug tolerance levels,

568
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 6: which like, over time, after repetitive use, in order to

569
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 6: get high, the user must seek out stronger drugs or

570
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 6: dangerously intense doses, of which he views transport. Is this

571
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 6: like dangerous dose? Yeah?

572
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I do love like the the through line

573
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: with these people that like both this is like a

574
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: sickening degeneracy and also is so appealing that people absolutely

575
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: cannot help themselves to it, like it affects them like heroin.

576
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: It's it's it's so inherently attractive.

577
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 6: I mean some of that might be their actual proclivities

578
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 6: kind of yes, I think, kind of peeking out from

579
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 6: under the surface there. Yeah, all of these guys love

580
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 6: watching Transport, all of these like anti trans people, whether

581
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 6: it's Alex Jones or like Nick Fuentes, Like obviously they

582
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 6: have they have an interest in that, and that's what

583
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 6: kind of drives them of their obsession.

584
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is it's just weird, Like I don't know

585
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: anyone who talks about any pornography that way, Like you know,

586
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: every everyone's got whatever it is they're into, like something

587
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: that they'll be particularly interested in, but no one describes

588
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: as like it's just this kind of thing. No one

589
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: can resist it obviously, this.

590
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 6: Sort of like powerful obsessive nature in which these types

591
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 6: of right wing freaks like refer to it as they.

592
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: Like actual perverts will say stuff like no, no, no,

593
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: I've been shoving things inside my p hole for the

594
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: last twenty seven years, and now I can get up

595
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: to something the width of a mag light and I

596
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: know that's crazy, Like, I know no one else does that.

597
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 2: That's just a me fing. Oh, someone needs to explain

598
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 2: sounding to Tucker Carlson is what I'm what I'm saying,

599
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 2: like I if I if he interviews me, I'm gonna

600
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: walk him through sounding. I'm gonna use together a PowerPoint

601
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: with photos.

602
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 6: He's obviously he's obviously uh open and open to this

603
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 6: line of discussion. Are we allowed to have ads on

604
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 6: this episode?

605
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably not, but let's throw to him anyway.

606
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 6: All right, we are we are back. Nick Fuentes is

607
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 6: gonna continue continue to describe pornography towards a slightly confused

608
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 6: Tucker Carlson. Now now Nick is able to really speak

609
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 6: from a sense of authority as someone who claims to

610
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 6: have never had sex, He's able to really speak with

611
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 6: authority on this topic, which I will, I will, I'll

612
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 6: play this next clip.

613
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 4: And there's something too about what a when you look

614
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: at it? When you because people don't realize that it

615
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 4: is a fundamentally different experience. People don't realize being involved

616
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: in intercourse versus watching other people have intercourse.

617
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 7: And I think that actually does something to you. Tell me,

618
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 7: what do you mean?

619
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 6: Sorry, I'm just stop there for a sec. People don't

620
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 6: realize this amazing observation from alleged virsion in cell Nick Fuentes.

621
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 6: He's trying to make this point about like body depersonalization

622
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 6: or like disassociation when watching ports like this, like out

623
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 6: of body experience because you start associating yourself with people

624
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 6: on screen. That's eventually what he starts talking about, right,

625
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 6: And but he couches this in saying that, like, people

626
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 6: don't realize that this is what this is, you know,

627
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,479
Speaker 6: different from actual sex, which is really funny because Nick

628
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 6: is proudly proclaims that he's never had sex before, so

629
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 6: he is in no position to argue this point.

630
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, that's the other thing. How would you know

631
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: that it's inherently better than sex.

632
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 6: Like because he's never had I think that he has

633
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 6: to assume that because that's the only information he has.

634
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 6: But I love I love his his framing of this

635
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 6: is like new novel information that no one else has

636
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 6: access to, that no one realizes that watching port is

637
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 6: different from having sex. Yeah, Tucker's response is just phenomenal

638
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 6: at the end of this, because Tucker's like trying trying

639
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 6: to coax more and more shit out of him. It's

640
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 6: really the only time where he's kind of being a

641
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 6: sly interviewer is at this ending porn section. It's not

642
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 6: the it's not the are you a Fed? Section, it's

643
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 6: not the Daily Wires stuff, it's not the anti Semitism stuff.

644
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 6: It's it's specifically the porn section. But to explain this

645
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 6: like out of body theory that Nick that Nick has here,

646
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 6: unfortunately Nick gets into trying to explain the Blanchardian theory

647
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 6: of trend sexuality towards towards Tucker Carlson, of which I

648
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 6: will only play a certain segment of because we don't

649
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 6: need to hear that whole thing. But there is a

650
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 6: section of this next clip that which we'll get into

651
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 6: that as well as take you on kind of a

652
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 6: beautiful journey showcasing Tucker's objection to pornography.

653
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 4: I think that you know, for example, I think Steve

654
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: Sailor has written about this that there's multiple kinds of transsexuals,

655
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 4: and he says a one kind of transsexual is somebody

656
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 4: that likes the idea of seeing themselves as a woman's

657
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: auto ginophilia. Yes, And I think that you know, one

658
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 4: of the theories for that is you you watch a

659
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: man having sex with a woman that isn't you so much,

660
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 4: you kind of achieve an identity with the woman in

661
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: like a worstick way. You almost identify with the woman.

662
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 4: And so there's weird things that happen when you're watching

663
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: that and having such strong emotional and sexual experiences.

664
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 6: Interesting.

665
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 8: Nick, that's interesting, Nick, I've always been I've sensed for

666
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 8: a long time having had a lot of young male

667
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 8: employees mentioned porn as a problem. I mean, the big

668
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 8: porn companies give visibility to foreign intel services on the back,

669
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 8: so that means people know what you're looking at. There's

670
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 8: likely video and audio of you watching.

671
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 6: Okay, all right, there's so much I love that Tucker's made.

672
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 6: Objection to photography isn't the stuff that Nick's talking about

673
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 6: at all, but the idea that it poses a security

674
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 6: risk because of foreign intel services.

675
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that they're they're recording everyone masturbating.

676
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 6: To blackmail every single person on the planet. And he

677
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 6: couches us and saying that he's quote not a huge

678
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 6: expert on the topic. Yeah, which is really good. But

679
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 6: to go back a little bit, the level of projection

680
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 6: Nick is doing here with this identifying as a woman

681
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 6: in the in the poor thing is simply phenomenal. I mean,

682
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 6: especially considering the whole you know, catboys scandal, which I

683
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 6: covered on the show like years ago as when I

684
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 6: was like a baby, as well as Nick's like alleged

685
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 6: trans porn league, which I guess I'll explain to here briefly.

686
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 6: This was in twenty twenty two. Nick allegedly was operating

687
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 6: a socc puppet Twitter account when he was banned on Twitter.

688
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 6: This this account shared a clip scrolling through Nick Fuentes

689
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 6: like analytics, like video analytics, like search of analytics, showing

690
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 6: his popularity and when scrolling through these various tabs, A

691
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 6: little section of a tab that that didn't did not

692
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 6: get into full view, but you get you saw the

693
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 6: bottom of it, which looked a lot like a very

694
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 6: specific trans femboy porn video on porn hub. People found

695
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 6: the video, and after they found the video, you know this,

696
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 6: This this post with these analytics was like taken down

697
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 6: and this account was believed to be operated by Nick Fuentez.

698
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 6: Now Nick claims that he obviously was not behind this account,

699
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 6: that this was some like a groper fan who was

700
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 6: trying to set him up for scandal by operating an

701
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 6: account that appeared to be Nick's account on Twitter but

702
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 6: actually wasn't. I Robert, I will show you a little

703
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 6: bit of this analytics video. We don't need to see

704
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 6: the whole thing, but it's like this, okay, so various

705
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 6: various tabs. Look look at all these tabs. This various Like.

706
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 2: When does Jake Lloyd explore.

707
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 6: What comparing his popularity towards other other like commentators.

708
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: He was comparing his popularity to fucking Jake Lloyd from

709
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 2: the Face and Menace from the Phantom Menace, So you

710
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: should be beating him, Nick.

711
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 6: But like web traffic analytics Joe Ken to Google trends

712
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 6: and then let's see if I can find it right

713
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 6: right here at the top. Yeah, right here at the top,

714
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 6: was scrolling through the tabs on the iPhone Safari is

715
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 6: a little a little peorn tab right Yeah. So this

716
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 6: this turned into a little, a little mini thing with

717
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 6: people thinking that they secretly stumbled across the Nick's porn

718
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 6: porn watching habits, of which it would be no surprise, yeah,

719
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 6: that he'd be watching transfendboy porn, especially again considering that

720
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 6: he operated a catboy discord channel on his server. But

721
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 6: he has staunchly denied this, as you know, as a

722
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 6: based Catholic in cell obviously. So, both Tucker and Nick

723
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 6: believe that porn is a big factor affecting the decline

724
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 6: of actual sex and marriage among gen z, and it's

725
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 6: not just a male problem. Nick argues that it has

726
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 6: become a quote unquote so destigmatized for women to participate

727
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 6: in porn as well, of which she's mostly referring to

728
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 6: only fans. Here's a clip of them discussing only fans.

729
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 4: And it is completely casual, you know, because you could

730
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 4: say that maybe ten years ago, even at the heyday

731
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: of Internet porn. To be in porn, you got to

732
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 4: be a porn star. Like that's your life and that's

733
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 4: your career, and that's who you are. And it's very shameful.

734
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 4: With only fans, It's like it's like having a TikTok.

735
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 4: It's like, here's my link tree, here's my Instagram account,

736
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 4: here's my Facebook account, here's my YouTube, and here's my

737
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 4: only fans.

738
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 7: Why would any of this be legal?

739
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: I think that, Well, there's, like you indicated, maybe there's

740
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 4: an intelligence benefit to that. Yeah, maybe there's a political

741
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 4: benefit to that. I think that why wouldn't you arrest

742
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 4: the people who run something like that? They should be

743
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: if you had a Christian government, or how about the

744
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 4: government and cares about its people? I mean, is Iran

745
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: a bigger threat or his only fans? Iron's not turning

746
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 4: my daughters to prostitution that I'm aware of?

747
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 6: Right, Oh my god? Is Iron a bigger threat? Or

748
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 6: is only fans?

749
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, that's the real geopolitical question.

750
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 6: The wisest minds. No, what a what a beautiful mind

751
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 6: that is? Yeah, yeah, like even be able to think

752
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 6: of the sentence. Is a run a bigger threat than

753
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 6: only fans?

754
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

755
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 6: Like I could never even get myself to a point

756
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 6: where I conjured that thought in my own head.

757
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: We have to ban pornography because it's the iran of masturbation.

758
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 6: It's frankly beautiful in order to get their minds so

759
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 6: so degraded to even have this thought. It's so alien.

760
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 6: Man Later, Tucker pushes kind of on this point about

761
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 6: the need to arrest people who run only fans, while

762
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 6: Nick kind of quietly remarks that it's really the women

763
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 6: or the quote unquote body assets who should be arrested.

764
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 6: But Tucker is pretty firm on no, it's really like

765
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 6: the facilitators, people hosting the website or are enabling this.

766
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 6: But you know, Nick and Nick would be totally fine

767
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 6: if women on the platform also get arrested. Man Ah. Again,

768
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 6: the insistence that the a primary objection or like a

769
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 6: causal a causal aspect of why is this allowed it's

770
00:44:54,760 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 6: for like intelligence gathering services, is simply beautiful. Do you

771
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 6: know what else is beautiful?

772
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: Robert? The sponsors of this podcast.

773
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 6: They are for putting up with this.

774
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, all right, we're back.

775
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 6: Before this final segment, we will we will transcend the

776
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 6: discussion of porn and just talk more about some of

777
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 6: Nick's opinions on on like women, oh good, and other

778
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 6: factors beyond porn for why you know, marriage isn't happening?

779
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 6: Why why aren't people getting married as much anymore? You know,

780
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 6: of which both Tucker and Nick think porn is a factor.

781
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 6: But there's other factors contributing to this crisis, which Nick

782
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 6: and Tucker will will elucidate. Let's uh, let's hear him out.

783
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 8: So what are the other factors that prevent I'm sorry

784
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 8: I called you gay, by the way, but I'm always sure.

785
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 8: I think I'm just too old or something. I'm like, what,

786
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 8: why is anyone married? You tell me why isn't Why

787
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 8: an't people married? Well, I mean, honestly, it's the women,

788
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 8: all right.

789
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 6: Oh okay, we solve that problem. Uh yeah, that's it.

790
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 6: I think that does it for us, that it could

791
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 6: happen here. They got to the bottom of that pretty quickly. Sorry,

792
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 6: I called you gay, by the way. So no. Now

793
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 6: it's time for the wise in selsationic fuintest to bestow

794
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 6: his wisdom pertaining to relationships and marriage, and in his eyes,

795
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 6: the main problem seems to be that not just women,

796
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 6: but specifically that women are too liberal. Yeah, really breaking

797
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 6: new ground there.

798
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, that's that's it. That's the problem because then

799
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: they don't like all of the Nick flintest fans.

800
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 4: The men are extremely conservative increasingly the women are extremely liberal.

801
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 7: What are they liberal on? What issues?

802
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: Like?

803
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 7: What does that mean liberal?

804
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 10: Oh?

805
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 7: On on out?

806
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 4: They're very feminist, like actually extremely femine.

807
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 7: I don't believe that, do they? I think they do

808
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 7: really absolutely.

809
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 8: I don't believe that gender roles are a construct, that

810
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 8: none of this is inborn, Like you'd have to be

811
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 8: an idiot to think that.

812
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 7: They like the idea of it.

813
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 6: Tucker's delivery. I want to study it more.

814
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: I feel like they sketched some of this out before

815
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: they did this, because I feel like they're both leading

816
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: each other to get out statements that they want to say.

817
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 6: No, yeah, it's so crafted here, like they're back and forth.

818
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 6: Exchange is so is so crafted. Every every inflection they have,

819
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 6: they're like giving each other these key points to the

820
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 6: extrap laid on.

821
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the stuff that's willful, like the claims that well,

822
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: young men are conservative, which is based on like a

823
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: shift towards Trump that's partly reversed over the last year

824
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: or so, but that was not the vast majority of

825
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: gen Z people, right, Like it's it's yeah, young people

826
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 2: are willing to like try out different things and swing

827
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: back and forth. But like, it's not, it's not the

828
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,439
Speaker 2: way he's framing it, right, because that's that's the most

829
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: convenient narrative for the right, that like all of the

830
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: young men are pulling towards the right, and so the

831
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: problem is that women are more progressive, right, Yeah.

832
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 6: Therefore it has to be liberal women. Yeah, right, No,

833
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 6: it's it's a very it's a very convenient excuse to

834
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 6: explain actually a complex set of economic problems which are

835
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 6: preventing people from feeling comfortable enough to actually start a

836
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 6: family and you know, safe enough economically speaking. Nick goes

837
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 6: on to complain about, you know, women lying about wanting equality,

838
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 6: wanting to work, when really all they want is a

839
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 6: quote unquote tough chad quote. The whole political system is

840
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 6: based around women never being accountable for any of their

841
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 6: choices unquote. This is namely abortion and no false divorce,

842
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 6: which Nick spends a while talking about how that is

843
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 6: but a significant contributing factor towards ruining this country. How

844
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 6: women can enter marriages and leave for whatever reason they want,

845
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 6: taking half of them money, taking half the stuff, etc. Etc.

846
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 6: There's another factor that Nick claims is contributing to this problem.

847
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 6: They have a.

848
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 4: Very high estimation of themselves. I think people call it

849
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 4: hope flation. Their yes, their sense of their own looks

850
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 4: and sexual value is very inflated.

851
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 6: I just had to put the hope flation clip in there.

852
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: The hope flation, Yes, Tucker Carlson saying, hope flation. It's

853
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: truly a moment for us.

854
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 9: All.

855
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 6: Yeah. Again, I really want to just displice some of

856
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 6: these soundbits into my other episode at random points. Now, again,

857
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 6: Tucker actually pushes back in some of like the in

858
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,959
Speaker 6: between sections here, and I'll play some of that pushback later,

859
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 6: but you know, way more than the rest of the interview.

860
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 6: So specifically, here Tucker is actually pushing back on Nick's

861
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 6: kind of resigned blame directed towards women and the quote

862
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 6: unquote legal incentive structures that he says are contributing to this.

863
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 6: And Tucker responds by saying, even if some of these

864
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 6: complaints are true, as believers in the natural patriarchy, isn't

865
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 6: it men's role to take responsibility lead by example and

866
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 6: to fix this behavior in women through marriage.

867
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 4: But I would say that because I hear this all

868
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: the time. People say, well, the men need to step

869
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 4: up and be better and lead the women Easier said

870
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 4: than done.

871
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 7: You know, I agree with that.

872
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 4: They're at war with the system, and not even just

873
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 4: the system, but also society.

874
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 6: So this is this is the full like joker pilled

875
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 6: and sale stuff, is that in order to have an

876
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 6: actual relationship with women, men have to enter into combat

877
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 6: against quote unquote society. Right like this, it is larger.

878
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 6: It's larger thing that's influencing women and is making them,

879
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 6: you know, depraved and liberal. And Nick argues that even

880
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 6: if you find like a nice, trad Christian girl, they're

881
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 6: gonna be on TikTok, they're gonna be on Instagram, and

882
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 6: they're gonna be quote unquote talking to other women and

883
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 6: through osmosis, they're gonna get influenced by this liberal culture

884
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 6: and say, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line, people

885
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 6: will change and they may not be so Christian and

886
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 6: trad twenty years into your marriage because of society.

887
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, I mean, I guess that's the argument I

888
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: expected from him.

889
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,439
Speaker 6: He'll extracolate some of his reasoning here.

890
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 4: And I think that women as kind of the ultimate conformists,

891
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 4: the ultimate enforcers of like social norms. I think eventually

892
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 4: the pressure from society kind of gets to them, and

893
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 4: a lot of them will go into.

894
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 8: It depends what kind of husbands they have. I mean,

895
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 8: if there's real leadership at home. I don't know a

896
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 8: single happily married woman who's liberal, not one. I know

897
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 8: a lot of married women.

898
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 6: Here's some of the pushback that Tucker is doing now.

899
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 6: But yeah, man, this idea of you know, that women

900
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 6: as the ultimate conformists is the enforcers of social norms, right,

901
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 6: This is like kind of like the long House type stuff.

902
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 6: And Tucker's rebuke of that is that in an actual

903
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 6: you know, marriage with a conservative man, a strong and

904
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 6: so it of man, all that behavior will get changed

905
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 6: because people will fall into like their natural biological patriarchal roles.

906
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 6: But Nick still doesn't buy it. Like he is he is,

907
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 6: he is an insul at heart. Here's no way that

908
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 6: that Tucker's kind of push back gonna it's gonna turn

909
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 6: him on this. Like Nick just hates women entirely. This

910
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 6: whole motivation is that due to some sort of like

911
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 6: fascist homo erotic like aspect maybe, but it's it's probably

912
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 6: even more complicated than that. I mean, part of the

913
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 6: fascist fenboy thing is people who actually aren't even gay

914
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 6: but just hate women so much that they end up

915
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 6: being gay because that's like the only mode of connection

916
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 6: they can even or like physical connection. They can even

917
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 6: like muster themselves to to like do, which I explained

918
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 6: in that episode from you know a few years ago

919
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 6: when I was a baby. But yeah, this is definitely

920
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 6: some stuff at play here, and I mean Nick will

921
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 6: always just find new things to complain about in regards

922
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 6: to this sort of stuff, like the quote unquote epidemic

923
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 6: of simps.

924
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 8: So like maybe the job is to make you girl

925
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 8: happy in like all this nonsense ends.

926
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't know.

927
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 4: I think that that could be a bottomless pit too,

928
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 4: because my critique I have of the men is, and

929
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 4: you're right about this, they enable this behavior.

930
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 7: Well, that's for sure, it's epidemic of simps.

931
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 4: Who and especially with Christians, I've noticed this epic of.

932
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: Six Yeah, that's that's something else.

933
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 6: Marriage has this bottomless pit.

934
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 2: I also love the idea that Tucker's like, well, why

935
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 2: are men just making women happy. And you know the

936
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: answer there for Tucker is that people like you are

937
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: not capable of making other people happy. But Nick can't

938
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: even consider that because the idea of women being happy

939
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: is deeply offensive to him.

940
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 9: Yeah.

941
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 6: No, I mean Nick says that simp culture, or more specifically,

942
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 6: a backlash to simp culture, is why people like Andrew

943
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 6: Tate have gotten so popular despite being a quote unquote

944
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 6: Muslim polchemist, because Tate is quote putting a women in

945
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 6: their place, as opposed to Christian men who are tone

946
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 6: policing each other and are worshiping women and worshiping their wives,

947
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 6: which Tucker pushes back on a bit by saying that

948
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 6: the New Testament commands men to love their wives and

949
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 6: that wives respect their husbands. We got only two more

950
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 6: at clips left, but I think they are very revealing,

951
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 6: all right, as much else needs to be revealed here.

952
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 8: I do think I've just noticed this that men who

953
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 8: stay unmarried for too long become like kind of fragile.

954
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 8: There's something about the give and take. There's something about

955
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 8: living with In fact, I think it's the key to life.

956
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 8: Someone you don't fully understand that broadens you, that keeps

957
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 8: you always thinking that makes you wiser, more patient, more thoughtful,

958
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 8: more self aware, and more flexible.

959
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 7: And those are all good qualities.

960
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 8: And the absence of that, like in with sexuality, or

961
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 8: like men who are single too long, they get very rigid.

962
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 7: Have you ever noticed this?

963
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 6: Have you ever noticed this?

964
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 8: I like things the way I like them, and they

965
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 8: just get like no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't

966
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 8: want that.

967
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 2: Really, because that's who you are. Nick.

968
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 4: I would say that when when you say you don't

969
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 4: fully understand women. To me, I feel like women are

970
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 4: very simple in terms of lived with one. No, I

971
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 4: haven't lived with them, but I meant.

972
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 6: Oh, man, women are really simple. Have you ever lived

973
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:32,439
Speaker 6: with one? No?

974
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: It's really funny up until the assuming all gay people

975
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: are the same bit. Tucker's making a good point, which

976
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 2: is that like part of what's healthy about relationships is

977
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 2: like living with someone who's not like you, right, just

978
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: like that makes us better people.

979
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 6: And he's very clearly trying to like like push Nick's

980
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 6: buttons here, Yeah, because he knows, he knows, he knows,

981
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 6: because Nick's getting called out because yeah, he's this angry,

982
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 6: unmarried guy. He's this like ye little unhinged freak.

983
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

984
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 6: Oh and Yeah, he's like getting he's absolutely getting called

985
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 6: out here. And it's funny that this is the thing

986
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 6: out of the of the entire interview that that that

987
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 6: Tucker really tries to harp on. It's it's this married thing,

988
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 6: Like he really wants Nick to get married. That's kind

989
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 6: of the main thing he's really pushing for by the

990
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 6: end of this interview.

991
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, bro, that's gonna happen.

992
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 6: Have you ever lived with one? Well no, no, of

993
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 6: course not. It's wild. I mean, well, later Nick tries

994
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 6: to argue that, you know, it's it's really the men

995
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 6: who are complicated because men have a quote deep connection

996
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 6: to math and space unquote.

997
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, man, I love my deep connection to math

998
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: and space.

999
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, Robert's so good at math and space.

1000
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really my strong suits math and space.

1001
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 6: Anyone that knows you, I would.

1002
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: Say, every man I know is good at math and space.

1003
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 6: Versus you know, women just operate on primal base inurse. Yes,

1004
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 6: Nicks quote, men are masters of the universe. Women are

1005
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 6: the universe, which I think is a quote from someone else.

1006
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, god, yeah, you're a real master of

1007
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:14,439
Speaker 2: the universe. Nick.

1008
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 6: This will be the final clip where Tucker will offer

1009
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 6: a little bit more pushback towards Nick on some of

1010
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 6: his views about women in marriage. You've got a pretty

1011
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 6: clear look into into Nick's interiority here as well.

1012
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 8: So but anyway, but whatever, the point of men want

1013
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 8: to talk past each other constantly, they don't always know

1014
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 8: what the other one is saying, and that frustration actually

1015
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 8: gives way to like great beauty over time. I would say,

1016
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 8: I don't know.

1017
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 4: I personally find women very frustrated when they are not expressing, and.

1018
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 7: I just view that as any of it.

1019
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 6: I see.

1020
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 4: The way I look at is like when you look

1021
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: at your favorite TV shows, right, Sopranos Breaking Bad, It's

1022
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 4: like the wife is the villain because it's like the

1023
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 4: main character, if the wife could just get out of

1024
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 4: the way, would be running the shell. And that's kind

1025
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 4: of how I feel. Like iron Rand I agree with

1026
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 4: her about this. She said that the wife's role is

1027
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 4: like hero worship. The guy is the hero. The guy

1028
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 4: is supposed to be the entrepreneur, the conqueror or whatever,

1029
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 4: and the woman is really supposed to support the man's

1030
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 4: goals and be in his world.

1031
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 8: And I van that's the well, last thing successful men

1032
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 8: need is more power worship more, a hero worship more.

1033
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 7: You're so great?

1034
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 8: Well, you get that at work, you don't want that

1035
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 8: at home. You become an unbearable absolute pray to destroys

1036
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 8: every successful man, which is hubrisk, Like you mistake yourself

1037
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 8: for God. You need someone who's not interested in what

1038
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 8: you do at all, only interested in you. And that's

1039
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 8: how you become balanced and wise. That's how you know

1040
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 8: your own limits.

1041
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: That's shockingly good advice from Tucker Carlson.

1042
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 6: Like this, This is so beautiful. This is so beautiful

1043
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 6: to me. When Tucker Carlson is the voice of reason,

1044
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 6: it's it's really really scary weak. Yeah, but no, so

1045
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 6: clearly is next like a closet and gay in cell

1046
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 6: showing here? Well, like, well, Tucker pains pains to explain

1047
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 6: to Nick why people actually get into relationships. Yeah, and

1048
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 6: Nick just can't do it. He starts talking about the

1049
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 6: Sopranos and fucking breaking bad. That's like the only framework

1050
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 6: in which you could understand this because he's never had

1051
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 6: a real relationship. The wife is the villain, I agree

1052
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 6: with ein Rand. Yeah, famously well adjusted in the relationship department.

1053
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 6: Iin Rand, the wife's role is hero for chef, and

1054
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 6: Tucker's like, oh my god, no, that that's horrible.

1055
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, that's that's what ruins people, that destroys people.

1056
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 6: It's fascinating. No, yeah, this is a this is a

1057
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 6: truly fascinating exchange. And it's really telling that this is

1058
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 6: the thing that Tucker pushes back on not anti semitism,

1059
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 6: but she like kind of tepidly offered Nick advice on

1060
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 6: how to change his rhetoric to be more appealing, but

1061
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 6: did not push back on the substance of it, because

1062
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 6: Tucker is actually just as anti Semitic as Nick is. Yeah,

1063
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 6: but no, this is this is the thing that he

1064
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 6: that he decided to do. And yeah, like my initial

1065
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 6: feeling after watching this whole two hour and eighteen minute

1066
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 6: stream is like this whole stream or this whole episode

1067
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 6: felt like Tucker was kind of trying to be some

1068
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 6: sort of mentor figured to Neck or saw that Nick

1069
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 6: might be the future in some way, like might be

1070
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 6: whether whether it's the future of the party or future

1071
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 6: of like you know, this sort of like commentating class

1072
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 6: or style, and it kind of wanted to offer a

1073
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 6: little bit of a guiding light towards someone who I

1074
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 6: think Tucker does see, as you know, having some obvious

1075
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 6: issues and saying some nasty things and wanting to kind

1076
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 6: of write that course in a way or provide Nick

1077
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 6: a bit of a fresh start to restate some of

1078
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 6: his views on the biggest right wing platform online, which

1079
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,439
Speaker 6: is which is Tucker's show. Right now, I guess that's

1080
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 6: kind of that's kind of all I have on this

1081
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 6: women in poor section. I guess the last thing before

1082
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 6: we close, there is this question right with people in

1083
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 6: the GOP who are scared about Nick's Nick's influence at

1084
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 6: least in the commentating classroom among like interns, but specifically

1085
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 6: scared of it one because of the you know, anti

1086
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 6: Israel stuff, but also if that's going to hurt them electorally. Right,

1087
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 6: A lot of people couch this and saying, well, you know,

1088
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 6: these views aren't popular with the electorate. Republicans are never

1089
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,959
Speaker 6: going to win elections if this Graper thing takes over,

1090
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 6: and that leaves us, you know, people who are against

1091
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 6: against you know, the rise of fascism and authoritarianism in

1092
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 6: kind of a weird spot because I don't think we

1093
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 6: can really do anything to encourage like the graperification of

1094
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 6: the GOP like an accelerationist fashion. But we can kind

1095
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 6: of let it happen. We can choose to just let

1096
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 6: it happen, or we can choose to kind of stop

1097
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 6: it in like the twenty seventeen Antifa, you know, framework

1098
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 6: of like trying to prevent this stuffrom spreading because it

1099
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 6: will always lead to bad things. And yeah, after doing

1100
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 6: all this research last week and really continuing into this

1101
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 6: week too, I mean Trump just gave a statement in

1102
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 6: support of Talker and saying that he should get the

1103
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 6: word out about Nick Fuentes, I've continued to be looking

1104
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 6: at this stuff and can we even stop it though?

1105
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 6: At this point? Right, like how much of the Antifa

1106
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 6: project like even succeeded considering where we are now politically right,

1107
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 6: But no, there certainly is this like internal debate in

1108
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 6: terms of letting this stuff happen versus trying to actively

1109
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 6: oppose this like Graper takeover of the GOP.

1110
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's realistically anything that

1111
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: we can do to influence how popular Nick Fuintes is

1112
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 2: on the right. Like if you just start screaming about

1113
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 2: how bad and dangerous he is, that's going to convince

1114
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 2: a lot of people Oh, well, the left hates him.

1115
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 2: That must mean you know he's our guy.

1116
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1117
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: Likewise, I don't know. I don't think it's our place.

1118
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 2: I think it's our place to make sure people know

1119
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 2: what Nick actually stands for. That if there's some sort

1120
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 2: of like whitewashing of his character that they attempt to

1121
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 2: do in order to make this more electorally viable, that

1122
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 2: people are aware of, like how how unhinged this guy is?

1123
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think the kind of shit

1124
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 2: Nick is saying here will will do well when exposed

1125
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: to the body politic as a whole, because it's nuts.

1126
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 2: But that said, like, I don't think you can. You're

1127
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: going to scold your way out of this.

1128
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 6: No, no, And I guess part of the education is

1129
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 6: making sure people have a more full understanding of Nick

1130
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 6: Quinn has his views on women and his uh yeah,

1131
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 6: and his little conversation on pornography. I think that actually

1132
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 6: is important because all of these guys are weird, little

1133
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 6: in selfreaks.

1134
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 2: Yes, and people don't like how weird they are when

1135
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 2: they're confronted with it. No, right, Mostly what they're concerned

1136
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 2: about is whether or not there are jobs, and shit

1137
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 2: is more or less expensive. They don't want some weirdo

1138
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: telling them that living with women will make them weaker.

1139
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 6: Even Tucker doesn't like that. Yeah, well I think that

1140
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 6: does it for us today at it could happen here. Great.

1141
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 6: I hope this episode is something.

1142
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope it's something too.

1143
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 6: Good Night, goodbye, welcome to take it happen here a

1144
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 6: podcast telling you to rage against the dying of the light.

1145
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 6: I am your host, Bia long and many episodes ago,

1146
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 6: significantly more tearfully. I talked about how, you know, watching

1147
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,919
Speaker 6: the trans voices in media get fired and disappear felt

1148
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 6: like watching the stars disappear in the sky. And today

1149
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 6: I am here to say, do not go gently into

1150
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 6: that good night fuck him, rage against the dying of

1151
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 6: the lights and with me to age she gets the

1152
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 6: diying of the light and talk about some absolute bullshit.

1153
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 3: Is Alma a Vie who is a former staffer at

1154
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 3: bonapp Petite, and we will be getting into why that's

1155
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 3: now technically former and the VP of the New Skuild

1156
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 3: of New York.

1157
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 6: Alma, welcome to the show.

1158
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 11: Amy, lovely to be here.

1159
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 6: I wish it was under better circumstances. I feel like

1160
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 6: everyone I talked to I go, I wish you under

1161
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 6: better circumstances, but you know.

1162
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, circumstances across the border kind of trash right now.

1163
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're they're really bad. The circumstances they do be

1164
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 6: they do, they do be shit.

1165
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 3: So these specifically bad circumstances are one. Conde Nast has

1166
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 3: just obliterated teen Vogue, which had been one of the

1167
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 3: few actually very good progressive outlets, also one of the

1168
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 3: few outlets that would publish trans people regularly, and it's

1169
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 3: just gone now. And Alma and three of her coullies

1170
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 3: were fired for very productive union activity, being like, hey,

1171
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: what the fuck?

1172
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 6: And we kind of de terms of that. I can

1173
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 6: say this because it's not my ass of.

1174
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 3: The line, but yeah, do you want to talk a

1175
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 3: bit about what happened?

1176
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, totally. I mean to give the company it's caveat. Technically,

1177
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 11: teen Vogue still exists. It has just been moved under

1178
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 11: the broader organization of Vogue. They've now said that it's

1179
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 11: coverage areas will include professional development as well as well.

1180
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 11: There are a couple of other things that they highlighted,

1181
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 11: but certainly the things that they did not highlight include, say,

1182
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 11: you know, scathing coverage of the Trump administration, or coverage

1183
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 11: of trans youth and trans healthcare bands for teenagers, coverage

1184
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 11: of like young celebrities of color, and so on. But yeah, anyway,

1185
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 11: I guess to just go back to the start of

1186
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 11: the timeline. Last Monday, we at the News Guild and

1187
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 11: you know, at the Conde Nast Union, which is the

1188
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 11: union that represents basically every worker or every journalist and

1189
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 11: video maker at Conde Nast except for those in the

1190
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 11: New Yorker. They are in like a separate bargaining unit

1191
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 11: that we see as like you know, linked sibling units

1192
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 11: at the linked sibling unions. We do most of our

1193
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 11: organize together and our contracts are nearly identical. But anyway,

1194
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 11: we were yeah, I know, right, union siblings. It's adorable. Yeah,

1195
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 11: we try to stay close. But anyway, we got word

1196
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 11: last Monday that about two thirds of the staff of

1197
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 11: teen Vogue were being laid off, including a friend of

1198
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 11: mine and I think former guests on your show, actually

1199
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 11: Lex mcmahamon, who was the politics editor at teen Vogue,

1200
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 11: as well as a few.

1201
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 6: Of their culture editors.

1202
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 11: Basically like if they were covering I mean, being a

1203
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 11: little glib here but like if they were covering say

1204
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 11: like trans writes, trans youth, like progressive culture in nearly

1205
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,160
Speaker 11: any way shape or form. YEP, they were either laid

1206
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 11: off or the remaining workers were folded into the larger

1207
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 11: organization of Vogue, and I think they're still figuring out

1208
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 11: exactly where they fit into that organization and what like

1209
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 11: youth coverage looks like going forward. So that happened last Monday,

1210
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 11: which was obviously a massive loss. I sat in on

1211
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 11: a lot of the like the winegarden meetings going over

1212
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 11: the exit packages for those employees, a lot of like

1213
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 11: really sad and cheerful meetings that day.

1214
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 3: We should point out this is being recorded on Monday,

1215
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 3: the tenth. Last Monday's is Monday, November third. Not sure

1216
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 3: when this is gonna come out yet, just to make

1217
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,479
Speaker 3: it come link clear here. Yes, absolutely, November third. Yeah,

1218
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 3: that was Monday, November third. Yeah, thank you for the correction.

1219
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 3: And then two days later at the company we got

1220
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 3: a notification that there was another round of layoffs, this

1221
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 3: one hitting I believe folks on the video teams and

1222
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 3: then people on the like copy in fact checking section

1223
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 3: of the company as well.

1224
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 11: This was super disruptive. Usually, you know, at a company

1225
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 11: like Conde Nast, well, the union doesn't have like explicit

1226
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 11: protections for this, and in fact, like the company has

1227
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 11: the right to perform layoffs if they need to for

1228
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 11: business reasons. Usually when a round of layoffs goes through,

1229
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 11: there's like a period of peace that comes after that.

1230
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 11: You know, like there will be you know, a reduction

1231
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 11: enforce will figure out, Okay, how are we going to

1232
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 11: keep doing our jobs now that we have fewer staffers,

1233
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 11: And then if the company needs to reduce the staff again,

1234
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 11: that will happen like a few months, maybe a year

1235
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 11: in the future. Two rounds of layoffs in the same

1236
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,639
Speaker 11: week had people really really scared and really stressed out,

1237
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 11: because I mean, for one, there's like just the sense

1238
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 11: of like, oh God, a lot of my coworkers are gone,

1239
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 11: how am I going to be able to keep doing

1240
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 11: my job? We lost at my magazine, bon Apetite. We

1241
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,919
Speaker 11: lost our social media director, the person who was basically

1242
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 11: running our social accounts. We'd gotten notification from the company

1243
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 11: that editors were going to be doing their own posting

1244
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 11: from then on, which is just not how things have

1245
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 11: ever worked before, not really a thing that they're like

1246
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 11: You know, my colleagues are brilliant, and many of them

1247
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 11: are brilliant like users of social media, but like not

1248
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 11: really a part of our jobs historically. So we're all

1249
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 11: pretty confused how we were supposed to, you know, actually

1250
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 11: keep running our magazine. Most of our magazines are already

1251
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 11: running on pretty reduced staffs in the first place. Yeah,

1252
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 11: so anyway between that and the kind of obvious political

1253
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 11: connection that one could draw, or at least like that,

1254
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 11: a lot of our members were afraid of, you know,

1255
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,640
Speaker 11: ten Vogue being this like pretty famously radical or at

1256
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 11: the very it's like pretty famously progressive publication doing some

1257
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 11: like really really hard hitting journalism. There's a really clear

1258
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 11: line you can draw between like all of the Colbert

1259
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 11: and Jimmy Kibble, but also like the CBS stuff with

1260
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 11: Barry Weiss, like this kind of broader right wing shift

1261
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 11: in media. You can draw, i think a direct line

1262
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 11: between all of that and like the shuttering or near

1263
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 11: shuttering of teen Vogue. So we did a thing that

1264
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 11: we basically always do when we're facing an issue like this,

1265
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 11: whether it's a big reduction in force or just some

1266
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 11: decision from the upper levels of the management that have

1267
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 11: all of the workers being like, wait, what, what the

1268
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 11: fuck did you just do? We had a rally in

1269
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 11: the cafeteria to go over some of the questions that

1270
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 11: we all have for management. We created a list of

1271
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 11: questions that we wanted to ask and then, and I

1272
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 11: cannot stress how like routine this is for us as

1273
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 11: a union. We went from the cafeteria, which is on

1274
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 11: the thirty fifth floor of the World Trade Center, down

1275
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 11: to the executive floor, which is directly below it on

1276
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 11: the thirty fourth floor of the World Trade Center, and

1277
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 11: we walked over to the executive offices and said, we

1278
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 11: have some questions for Stan Duncan, who is the head

1279
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 11: of the people team at CONDE, and asked basically one

1280
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 11: of the people in charge of either making these decisions

1281
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 11: of you know, staffing in reduction, and then of enforcing

1282
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 11: those decisions as well. We went down to speak with

1283
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 11: Stan Duncan, asked him some of our questions to other

1284
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 11: HR employees came out in medicine the hallway. We said

1285
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 11: we'd like to speak to Stan. We were happy to

1286
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 11: ask them our questions, but they said they wouldn't be

1287
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 11: particularly good at answering them or they might not have

1288
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,880
Speaker 11: good answers for us. But Stan, they said, was in

1289
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 11: a meeting at the time. It just so happened that

1290
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 11: either Stan's meeting ended right then, or maybe he heard

1291
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 11: people talking in the hallway and decided to come check

1292
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 11: it out, or maybe there wasn't a meeting, but for

1293
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 11: whatever reason, Stan happened to come out into the hallway

1294
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 11: at that time, and so we started trying to ask

1295
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 11: him our questions. Some of those questions included, like, was

1296
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 11: the closing of teen Vogue inherently political? But also how

1297
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 11: are we going to be able to do our jobs

1298
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 11: going forward? How are we supposed to keep running these

1299
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 11: magazines if you're going to keep cutting our jobs? And

1300
01:11:58,439 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 11: then also how are we supposed to keep doing our

1301
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 11: jobs if we are constantly living in fear of losing them?

1302
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 5: You know.

1303
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 11: Stan does not answer any of these questions, of course, yeah, no, naturally,

1304
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 11: he tells us we're not allowed to congregate in the hallway.

1305
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 11: This is not true, of course, we what, well, yeah,

1306
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 11: we I mean, One, this is our workplace. We I

1307
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 11: think are allowed to have conversations in the hallway of

1308
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 11: our workplace. Two, I mean, if he was saying that

1309
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 11: we weren't allowed to say, take part in union activities

1310
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 11: in the workplace. We have a right under Section seven

1311
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 11: of the NLRA that says we can do that. We

1312
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 11: also have like contract provisions that say the company will

1313
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 11: not infringe upon our right to organize and demonstrate in

1314
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 11: the workplace. So that just wasn't true. And in fact,

1315
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 11: the union, before everything else happened, already filed a grievance

1316
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 11: about denying our Section seven rights to organize in the workplace.

1317
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 2: God.

1318
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 11: Yeah, So anyway, Stan tries to get us to go

1319
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 11: back to our desks. He walks across the floor, tells

1320
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 11: us to follow him. We follow him and keep asking questions.

1321
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,200
Speaker 11: He says that we have to go back I can

1322
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 11: do our jobs. We say, we will happily do our

1323
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 11: jobs if you could just answer our questions. He tells

1324
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:06,680
Speaker 11: us that we have to go back to our workplaces.

1325
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,640
Speaker 11: We remind him this is our workplace, and anyway, we

1326
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 11: end up asking him those questions. We follow him back

1327
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 11: and forth along the hallway. He goes back into his office,

1328
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 11: closes the door. We all go back to our desks

1329
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 11: for the rest of the day. I finish up my

1330
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:22,760
Speaker 11: work and I go home and then I get notification

1331
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 11: from the News Guild at seven that the company has

1332
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 11: notified them that they are terminating me and three of

1333
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 11: my colleagues. Jesus Christ, no severance, no ongoing insurance coverage.

1334
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 11: My insurance expires at the end of the month. No notice,

1335
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 11: no investigation, effective immediately. So as of last Wednesday, I

1336
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 11: am no longer an employee of Conde and Asked. I'd

1337
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:48,600
Speaker 11: been working there for five years. I helped start the

1338
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 11: Conde and Ask union. In the time since I joined there,

1339
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 11: I was one of the most tenured members of my magazine. Actually,

1340
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,679
Speaker 11: people don't generally stick around there for a long time,

1341
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:59,799
Speaker 11: but at twenty seven years old, I was a long hauler.

1342
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 11: And yeah, in the time since then, our union has

1343
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 11: filed a second degreevance. There was the first one over

1344
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 11: telling us we couldn't congregate. There's now a second one

1345
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 11: over the retaliatory firings of me and my three colleagues.

1346
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 11: The company has since put five other people I believe

1347
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 11: on an unpaid leave in an attempt to discipline more

1348
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 11: people who took part in the demonstration. It's kind of

1349
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 11: hard to see rhyme or reason in the people that

1350
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 11: they decided to discipline. So I was speaking quite a

1351
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,679
Speaker 11: bit during the demonstration, as was one of the other

1352
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 11: people who was terminated. One person asked one question that

1353
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 11: was a Jake Lahud at Wired. He asked a question

1354
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 11: towards the beginning, which was, what is your definition of

1355
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 11: congregate when they told us we can't congregate in the

1356
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 11: whole way? Which I think is a perfectly valid question.

1357
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 11: And then one person who was terminated actually as far

1358
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 11: as I know, didn't speak at all during the demonstration.

1359
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 11: He was, however, the vice president of the New Yorker Union,

1360
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 11: the vice chair of the New York UNI, and you know,

1361
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 11: an organizer that the company was like very well aware of.

1362
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 11: And then as for the people who were placed on

1363
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:10,679
Speaker 11: disciplinary leaves, I mean, I believe some of them actually

1364
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:12,840
Speaker 11: spoke significantly more than some of the people who were

1365
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 11: terminated during the demonstration, but were certainly, like historically at

1366
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 11: the very least, less visible and less vocal union organizers.

1367
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 11: So the trend that we're seeing is that the people

1368
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 11: who spoke up were either people who had been historically

1369
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 11: very active in the union, or in Jake's case, somebody

1370
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 11: who was doing really really impressive coverage of the Trump

1371
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 11: administration and like really really hard hitting journalism against like

1372
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 11: Doge and like the general efforts of the right right

1373
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,839
Speaker 11: now to you know, I mean, listeners of this podcast

1374
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:39,000
Speaker 11: know everything that's going on there.

1375
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 9: Yep.

1376
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to say this, and I'm going to adopt

1377
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 3: preferred language of these professionals, which is to say that

1378
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 3: and this is the preferred language of management. Is that

1379
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 3: some people are called this both a return of resegregation

1380
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 3: and an obvious anti union political perch because it is

1381
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 3: a bunch of trans people and a bunch of them

1382
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,640
Speaker 3: white people who have been eliminated from teen vogue. You know,

1383
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 3: this is something that you were talking about earlier, about

1384
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 3: drawing the connection between this and CBS. I'm like, yeah,

1385
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 3: what did Barry Weis do when she got into CBS?

1386
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 3: She fired like every non white person who worked there, right,

1387
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,640
Speaker 3: because their avert political plan is resegregation. And you know,

1388
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 3: in order to do resegregation, you fire all of the

1389
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 3: people who are non white, you get rid of any

1390
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 3: trans people, and you get women. Admittedly, at CBS, it's

1391
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 3: not like they had like a giant like like you know.

1392
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 6: It wasn't like like I had of trans politics in

1393
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 6: the first place. I mean, they had some like you are.

1394
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 6: There's people there who are like cool.

1395
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 3: But like it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like

1396
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 3: teen Vogue, which genuinely had way more trans coverage than

1397
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 3: like any other outlet.

1398
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 11: No, totally, Like I.

1399
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 6: Can I emphasize enough, like the extent to which this

1400
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 6: is the most normal union activity in the entire world,

1401
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 6: into which this is the most protected category in the

1402
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 6: entire world, and you know.

1403
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 3: Obviously a bunch of the bosses and a bunch of

1404
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 3: like the corporations that are doing this shit like don't

1405
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 3: think the NLRA should exist, and like is like a

1406
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 3: legally valeled thing, but it's still enforced right now, and

1407
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 3: so while mostly but like for this, yeah, still in force,

1408
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 3: so there doesn't unbelievably hideous the illegal retaliatory firings that

1409
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 3: are illegal in like so many different ways. It's baffling,

1410
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 3: Like it's like you need like a second law degree

1411
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 3: to fight every single law they just broke.

1412
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 11: Totally. I mean, the thing that I would point out

1413
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 11: too is, like, like you said, this is an extremely

1414
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 11: common type of union action, Like across the entire labor

1415
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,680
Speaker 11: everyone does. Everyone marches on the boss. We also specifically

1416
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 11: like as a union we've marched on the boss like

1417
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,759
Speaker 11: tons of different times. Yeah, we've marched on Stan multiple

1418
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 11: times in the past. There was one demonstration where we

1419
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 11: all marched on stand during contract bargaining actually last year,

1420
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 11: where we had significantly more people and I will say

1421
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 11: being much more confrontational. I remember like a large crowd

1422
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 11: booing him in front of like the entire executive floor,

1423
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 11: and I would say, and I would say, like two

1424
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 11: to three times as many people present watching in a

1425
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,600
Speaker 11: much more like loud and activated and energetic forum. But

1426
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 11: we've had marches on other executives, We've had marches on

1427
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 11: editors in chief in the past. And I mean one

1428
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 11: of the reasons that like when I got the news

1429
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 11: that I was being terminated, I like basically went into shock.

1430
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 11: This felt extremely tame compared to past union actions that

1431
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 11: we've done. Yeah, and also, no one has ever been

1432
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,640
Speaker 11: disciplined for par taking part in any action like this

1433
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 11: in the past, like, let alone terminated. Like as far

1434
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:38,920
Speaker 11: as I know, no one's ever been called into a

1435
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 11: meeting and said like, you shouldn't have done that, and

1436
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 11: we're keeping an eye on you. So this is like

1437
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 11: a massive escalation on the company side in terms of retaliation.

1438
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 11: And I mean that's also what we've heard kind of

1439
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 11: across the board at the News Guild. You know, I've

1440
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 11: been in close conversations with our president and with other

1441
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:56,680
Speaker 11: like organizers at the Guild who have said, and this is,

1442
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 11: you know, our local union that organizes a bunch of

1443
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 11: different applications in New York City and kind of in

1444
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,839
Speaker 11: the surrounding area. This is one of the most egregious

1445
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 11: examples of retaliation that just about anybody I've talked who

1446
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 11: has seen in our union's history. And there's like pretty

1447
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 11: I think valid concern that like if a company like

1448
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 11: Conde Nast is able to get away with this, like

1449
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 11: other companies within our union are going to like follow

1450
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,200
Speaker 11: suit and like take this as their queue, which is

1451
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 11: both scary but also has been energizing for a lot

1452
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 11: of people. We've seen, like a lot of folks really

1453
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 11: excited to like show up and join our fight and

1454
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 11: get involved in any way that they can.

1455
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:30,559
Speaker 2: Hell yeah.

1456
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 11: The other thing that I would point out, based on

1457
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 11: what you were saying, is so Kanye Nast has a

1458
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 11: queer publication them dot Us, which I think is one

1459
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:42,680
Speaker 11: of the all time URLs for a queer publication you

1460
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:46,719
Speaker 11: possibly have very funny so between them and teen Vogue,

1461
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:49,639
Speaker 11: you had a lot of the company's like trans staffers.

1462
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 11: They kind of function as like sister publications. They like

1463
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 11: sit next to each other, they work closely together outside

1464
01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 11: of them. As far as I know, I was the

1465
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 11: only trans woman implied on editorial Conde Nast, and I

1466
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:05,679
Speaker 11: am certainly the only trans woman in our union, including

1467
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 11: at them. Actually, all of the transoman employees there, to

1468
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 11: my understanding, are not part of the unit. They are

1469
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 11: in management positions, which, yeah, your representation, but also means

1470
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 11: that like I was obviously in this very lonely position,

1471
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,439
Speaker 11: but also this very like visible and like clearly very

1472
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 11: vulnerable position where it's like incredibly easy to single somebody

1473
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 11: like me out. I would also say, during our contract fight,

1474
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 11: we had a lot of back and forth between like

1475
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,800
Speaker 11: me and company management about their coverage under the healthcare plan.

1476
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 11: Namely they excluded facial feminization surgery, which meant that, like,

1477
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 11: if you were an employee of Conde Nast and you

1478
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 11: wanted facial feminization surgery, you were either out of luck

1479
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:48,799
Speaker 11: or had to find a way to raise about fifty

1480
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,960
Speaker 11: thousand dollars based on a lot of estimates that I've seen.

1481
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:53,640
Speaker 3: If you're really lucky and good and you're going to

1482
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 3: go to Thailand, you can maybe get it for thirty K.

1483
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 11: Yeah right, no exactly which.

1484
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 3: Ammitically the timeline stuff is cool, but totally, I mean,

1485
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 3: it's like a.

1486
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 6: It's a lot of fucking money, like.

1487
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 11: Totally so much shit, even more if you want to

1488
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 11: recover in your own home and your own bed.

1489
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1490
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 11: Actually, and we weren't able to resolve that in the

1491
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 11: contract I got f FS this year, and to do it,

1492
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 11: I had to go on like a New York State

1493
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 11: marketplace plan. Oh no, Jesus Christ, I had both plans

1494
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 11: active at the same time. But I have to get

1495
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 11: like secondary insurance that cost seven hundred dollars a month

1496
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 11: in order to get out of best covered.

1497
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:29,639
Speaker 7: God.

1498
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, and that still ended up being significantly cheaper. Ye yep, yeah,

1499
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 11: I mean and frankly, like Conde nasked never covered it. Yeah,

1500
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 11: who did cover it was like lots of my union

1501
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 11: colleagues who jumped in and like created to go fundme

1502
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 11: for me and like helped car raise like all of

1503
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 11: the money that I needed to get surgery, and very

1504
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 11: very thankful for that. But anyway, point being like, the

1505
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 11: company does not exactly have the best track record when

1506
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 11: it comes to and like I feel very qualified to

1507
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 11: say this as like the trans woman in the Conde

1508
01:21:57,040 --> 01:21:59,599
Speaker 11: Nast union, the company does not exactly have the best

1509
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 11: track record in terms of like how they have treated

1510
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 11: us and me specifically around trans issues.

1511
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1512
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:07,920
Speaker 5: So being like again kind.

1513
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:09,920
Speaker 11: Of singled out in this way and then being hit

1514
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 11: with like this significant a piece of retaliation, it just

1515
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 11: feels really telling and also, I mean really disappointing. Frankly,

1516
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 11: like I've I've been at Conde for or I keep

1517
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 11: using the present tense. I'd been at Conde for five years,

1518
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 11: and you know, I liked my job. I was really

1519
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 11: good at my job. I hope that they will reverse

1520
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 11: course and turn this around, but anyway, it's disappointing. It's

1521
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 11: disappointing that like that that doesn't really seem to mean

1522
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 11: anything when the rubber hits the road.

1523
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1524
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 6: I think there's two ways you can look at it.

1525
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:40,960
Speaker 3: One is it's like, oh, yeah, of course, of course

1526
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 3: the one trans woman in this bargaining. Yet it was

1527
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 3: like the VP of the union because like, yeah, transforms

1528
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:47,479
Speaker 3: do be organizing.

1529
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:49,400
Speaker 6: Do we do do this?

1530
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 11: And that the truth.

1531
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 3: But then the second thing you were talking about this like, yeah,

1532
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 3: the magazines are already understaffed and they're just destroying them,

1533
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 3: you know. And this is something that I can say,

1534
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:58,200
Speaker 3: which is like, this is something we saw from Jeff Bezos,

1535
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:00,719
Speaker 3: right when when Jeff Bezos sort of like took control

1536
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 3: of the Washington Post and then gradually sort of purged

1537
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 3: their staff, and like, you know, has this whole thing

1538
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 3: now about how, oh h, we're supposed to be pro

1539
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 3: free market and pro individual liberties, which does not include

1540
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 3: trans writes. You know, if you look at what happened

1541
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 3: to the Washington Post's subscriber account, it's like nothing, It's

1542
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:22,480
Speaker 3: like the paper is dying. It's effectively just like it's

1543
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 3: not like an actual functional, like profit making thing anymore.

1544
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:28,799
Speaker 3: Like it's just it's just the sort of propaganda vanity

1545
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,280
Speaker 3: outlet of a billionaire. And that's you know, that's probably

1546
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,840
Speaker 3: what's going to happen to CBS, is that it's going

1547
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,400
Speaker 3: to just get sort of annihilize, stripped down, because these

1548
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 3: people don't want a functioning media. They don't give a

1549
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,720
Speaker 3: shit if these things actually work, because what they're trying

1550
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 3: to do right now is accumulate raw, accumulate just raw

1551
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 3: power and attempt to do raw sort of narrative and

1552
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 3: media control in order to stay in power. And it's

1553
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 3: not working because everyone still hates them, even though they

1554
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 3: bought all the newspapers. Everyone is like, these people suck

1555
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 3: like but this is that we run into with unions

1556
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 3: off all the time, which is like, yeah, there are

1557
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 3: a lot of bosses who would rather their own company

1558
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 3: be non functional, you know, their workers have any voice

1559
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 3: in it. And especially now in this political moment in

1560
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:13,759
Speaker 3: which oh, hey, look the fascists are trying to seize

1561
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 3: control of the media, that becomes increasingly more and more

1562
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 3: an option of just fuck it, We'll just like get

1563
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 3: handouts from like the tech fascists forever, and in exchange

1564
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,760
Speaker 3: of that, will publish whatever propaganda garbage they want to

1565
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 3: spit out.

1566
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:32,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, I would also say, like, I'm not

1567
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 11: sure get about across the entire company. Although I believe

1568
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 11: it was one of the better traffic stories that Conde

1569
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:40,200
Speaker 11: Nast all year, but one of the most certainly one

1570
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 11: of the most like trafficked teen Vogue stories in this

1571
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:44,519
Speaker 11: past year, was like out of their politics section. It

1572
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 11: was the Vivian Wilson Elon Musk's transdaughter cover story, really

1573
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 11: really good, an amazing piece of journalism and also a

1574
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:54,519
Speaker 11: like super viral, and I'm sure made a ton of

1575
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 11: money for the company. Yeah, and so one would think,

1576
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 11: you know, looking at like the trends of the past,

1577
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:02,800
Speaker 11: that if that was going to inform anything, like the

1578
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 11: company would actually say, like more politics coverage, like more

1579
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 11: progressive coverage out of teen Vogue.

1580
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 3: Well, and like I remember, I don't have the exact

1581
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 3: numbers on me because I'm a hack and of fraud.

1582
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:14,920
Speaker 3: But if it wasn't a hack and a fraud, I

1583
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:17,599
Speaker 3: would have the exact numbers from the coverage of like

1584
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,960
Speaker 3: the increase in both revenue generation and in like readership

1585
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:23,760
Speaker 3: that teen Vogue underwent once they started doing politic stuff

1586
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:26,839
Speaker 3: on at the first show administration, And now you're getting

1587
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 3: rid of that for what are clearly business reasons and

1588
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:33,679
Speaker 3: are clearly, very very clearly not related to the fact

1589
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:35,879
Speaker 3: that there is a bunch of a bunch of political

1590
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:38,519
Speaker 3: pressure from a bunch of fascists to run the government.

1591
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 11: Now, Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't have like perfect

1592
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 11: insight into like what's going on behind closed doors at

1593
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 11: Conde NASS, But I can't say that.

1594
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:47,800
Speaker 6: We had a diversity.

1595
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:51,720
Speaker 11: Committee meeting with our joint union management diversity committee a

1596
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 11: week before all of this went down, and they told

1597
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:56,719
Speaker 11: us that they were you know, paraphrasing here, but management

1598
01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,160
Speaker 11: said that they are actively trying to avoid the attention

1599
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 11: and the eyre of the Trump administration, which at the

1600
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 11: time definitely raised some eyebrows and I think led to

1601
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 11: the big response last week of like, m hm, oh,

1602
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 11: I actively avoid the attention of the Trump administration. You

1603
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 11: meant just like get rid of the parts of the

1604
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:16,320
Speaker 11: company that are like, yeah, hostile towards it, and I

1605
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 11: mean kind of too like the good business of progressive coverage.

1606
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:21,600
Speaker 11: I've covered a lot of beats in my time of

1607
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:23,479
Speaker 11: bon Epetite, but there was a period where I was

1608
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 11: covering like the Starbucks Workers United fight pretty closely, a

1609
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:28,840
Speaker 11: lot of articles about that in my back pocket. Those

1610
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 11: generally did really well. Actually, one of the first times

1611
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:35,639
Speaker 11: I faced like big right wing backlash online was covering

1612
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:39,280
Speaker 11: the like Dylan mulvaney bud Light protests, which I used

1613
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 11: as an opportunity to write about the the Corse Light

1614
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 11: boycotts of like the West Coast queer worker movement and

1615
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 11: like kind of the birth of the gay labor movement.

1616
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 11: One of my best trafficked of all time stories I

1617
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 11: wrote about the like why the watermelon symbol became like

1618
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 11: such a big kind of like rally and cry and

1619
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 11: like Palestine and organizing over the past few years. Again

1620
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:02,080
Speaker 11: massive traffic winner for the company. But every time, you know,

1621
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 11: we get into these meetings with management or every time

1622
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 11: we like hear about the direction that the company is

1623
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:09,400
Speaker 11: shifting or coverage is shifting, it always seems away from

1624
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 11: those kind of hot button issues that like there's clearly

1625
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 11: an appetite for stories about and instead towards well whatever

1626
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 11: it's towards you know.

1627
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and you can look at this

1628
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 3: like there's been a whole bunch of h There was

1629
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,400
Speaker 3: a story recently about doctor Oz like pivoting his whole

1630
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 3: thing into doing like a right wing like media grift, and.

1631
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 6: Nobody's watching it. Like the the average episode of vicot

1632
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:34,080
Speaker 6: appen here absolutely annihilates like just like like orders of

1633
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,360
Speaker 6: magnitude better than like no, I think it was doctor Phil,

1634
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:40,040
Speaker 6: Yeah it was doctor Phil. Who does that look there

1635
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 6: they're like the same guy, like wow, that's that's slightly

1636
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:45,240
Speaker 6: unfair to doctor oz. Well, yeah, doctor Philip did this

1637
01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 6: like did the right wing pivot, and like nobody's listening

1638
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 6: to the show. It's like no one.

1639
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 3: This is like one of the most famous people in

1640
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,439
Speaker 3: the United States is getting annihilated by like Mia and

1641
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 3: the trendy crew like.

1642
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 6: You could happen here, Like.

1643
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 3: Oh wow, you know, and yeah, like there is this

1644
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:05,879
Speaker 3: like massive demand for this stuff as like people increasing

1645
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 3: me realize that, oh yeah, wait, hold on, we're getting

1646
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,599
Speaker 3: every single person like in the country is like almost

1647
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 3: individually getting screwed over by the Trump administration. He's like

1648
01:28:15,640 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 3: individually micro targeting every single part of his base and

1649
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:20,759
Speaker 3: pissing them off. Like there was a whole farmer soy

1650
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 3: thing right, and like he's like, I guess tend this

1651
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 3: negotiates to weybean sales now. But like you know, you

1652
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 3: can look at.

1653
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 6: Like so he was fighting this whole war with his

1654
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 6: entire farming base and then he immediately turned around from

1655
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 6: there and went to fight the cattle ranchers. It's like

1656
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 6: there's so much appetite for any critique of this because

1657
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 6: it's so obviously just like malignant and narcissistically violent, and

1658
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:43,679
Speaker 6: all of these companies that are like you know, like

1659
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 6: like this has always been the problem with the free

1660
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:46,720
Speaker 6: press is that like the US does not have a

1661
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 6: free press. The US is a capitalist press, and so

1662
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 6: you know, you can just buy them or apply enough

1663
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 6: political pressure and they will fall in line.

1664
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 11: And that's like what they're doing here. So what you're

1665
01:28:58,000 --> 01:28:59,799
Speaker 11: saying is we need a left wing Joe Rogam.

1666
01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 6: I'm going to become the joker.

1667
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:06,240
Speaker 2: Now, of course.

1668
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:10,839
Speaker 11: I mean I'll also say, like I became an organizer

1669
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 11: in the News Guild for a lot of reasons, right,

1670
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:14,799
Speaker 11: Like on UPTU was my first job out of college,

1671
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 11: and I was really involved covering the dining workers organizing

1672
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 11: at my undergrad school. So that was like definitely my

1673
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:23,640
Speaker 11: introduction there. But at the same time, like when I

1674
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 11: got into the workplace, I kind of realized that media

1675
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 11: unions are maybe one of the only things that will

1676
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,639
Speaker 11: keep the media at least as currently exists, alive until

1677
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:35,640
Speaker 11: we can come up with like some other model that

1678
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:38,760
Speaker 11: is like more sustainable, because I mean, like I look

1679
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 11: at a company like Conde Nast and you have this

1680
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:47,680
Speaker 11: like very well compensated very like large cast of managers

1681
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,200
Speaker 11: and middle managers yep. And then you have this like

1682
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:55,120
Speaker 11: massive body of people actually producing the magazines, actually making

1683
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 11: like doing the work of the journalism and the culture

1684
01:29:57,439 --> 01:29:59,720
Speaker 11: reporting and the video making and so on and so on.

1685
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 11: And you know, one of those groups is constantly subject

1686
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:05,720
Speaker 11: to layoffs. One of those groups is constantly being made

1687
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,200
Speaker 11: to say work over time and maybe being told not

1688
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 11: to build for as much over time as they're being

1689
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 11: made to work. And one of those groups is being

1690
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 11: extremely well compensated and has seemingly incredible job security.

1691
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like all all of the resources are being sucked

1692
01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 6: out by a combination of like these venture capitals dipshes

1693
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 6: at the top, and then all of these fucking like

1694
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 6: middle mirrors, management bureaucrats like who do nothing right.

1695
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 11: And the thing that slows that down is like workers

1696
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 11: having a say in the media, you know, like the

1697
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 11: people who actually can produce the work, like being able

1698
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:36,400
Speaker 11: to say and these are the circumstances under which the

1699
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:38,280
Speaker 11: work is going to be produced. I mean, I think

1700
01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 11: it's no surprise that, like if you look at a

1701
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:43,320
Speaker 11: publication like hell Gate or like Defector or like after

1702
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 11: Math and four or four, and all of these like

1703
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 11: worker co ops that are popping up kind of across

1704
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 11: the media ecosystem, like their worker owns and they have

1705
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 11: this very kind of flat like payment structure where everybody

1706
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,280
Speaker 11: is making around the same amount, like everybody has a

1707
01:30:57,360 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 11: say in the way that the workplace functions, and like

1708
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:02,080
Speaker 11: these appear at least to me to be some of

1709
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 11: the most like stable media like organizations that are out

1710
01:31:05,920 --> 01:31:08,559
Speaker 11: there right now. And all that tells me is that

1711
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 11: like workplace democracy, I mean in like the truest sense

1712
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 11: of the word, you know, like workplace democracy as it

1713
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 11: is earned by like worker organizations, union's work or co ops,

1714
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 11: whatever they might be, is the thing that's going to

1715
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 11: keep the media afloat. Like that is the model that

1716
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 11: is like sustainable in the long run. So I think

1717
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 11: that's one of the reasons that having like a strong

1718
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:30,160
Speaker 11: and active Conde Nasty union, though management probably wouldn't agree

1719
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 11: at least explicitly, is like one of the things that

1720
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 11: can keep Conde Nast alive for as long as possible.

1721
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:39,640
Speaker 11: Like you know, again they would probably loath to admit this,

1722
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 11: but like an organization like the Conde Nasty Union can

1723
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 11: only exist as long as an organization like Conde Nast exists,

1724
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 11: their fates are kind of tied to one another.

1725
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 3: Well, okay, this is we're doing the incredibly esoteric via

1726
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 3: via union theory.

1727
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:55,599
Speaker 6: There's two versions of looking at this one.

1728
01:31:55,720 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 3: Okay, this is the person where Yeah, the Kande Nast

1729
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:00,439
Speaker 3: union is structurally dependent on the existence of Conde n

1730
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 3: asked and this means that the power of the union

1731
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 3: is based on its ability to bring.

1732
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:06,679
Speaker 6: People back to work. However, comp there is a second

1733
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 6: one you could theoretically have. You could theoretically have the

1734
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 6: Conde Nass union without condiated ast.

1735
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 3: We have CNT in it, we've taken it over, we're

1736
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:19,680
Speaker 3: running it now. We are just now the union. And

1737
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,240
Speaker 3: you know, and the thing the thing I will say

1738
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 3: about that, and this is always this has always been

1739
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:25,639
Speaker 3: the advantage of co ops is that, like you are

1740
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 3: immediately from the ground up, you're going to have a

1741
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,960
Speaker 3: kind of efficiency advantage because there is not an entire

1742
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:36,400
Speaker 3: middle layer, like because obviously, like there are like producers

1743
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:38,719
Speaker 3: who do a bunch of work, like my boss Sophie.

1744
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 6: Like, if if we didn't have Sophie, none of this

1745
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,120
Speaker 6: would work, right. Yeah, there's also a bunch of other

1746
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:46,720
Speaker 6: people who have the same title who do nothing, and

1747
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 6: that's not even sue. If they did nothing, it would

1748
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 6: be better. They interfere with everything constantly and get paying.

1749
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 6: They shortenary large amount of money to make everything work worse.

1750
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:56,679
Speaker 3: And you don't have to have that entire like bureaucratic layer,

1751
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 3: like the layer of middle management. And this has always

1752
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:02,720
Speaker 3: been a massive just efficiency advantage that you have when

1753
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:04,920
Speaker 3: workers running their own shit, is that you don't have

1754
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:07,640
Speaker 3: to have those people and the coordination that needs to

1755
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:08,040
Speaker 3: be done.

1756
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:09,760
Speaker 6: Okay, you have people doing the coordination.

1757
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 3: You don't have fifteen layers of dipshits whose job it

1758
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 3: is to run.

1759
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:15,719
Speaker 6: Around making your job harder.

1760
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:19,679
Speaker 3: This this has been me talking about the organizational advantages

1761
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 3: of anarchy.

1762
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 6: It's great. I'm sorry, No.

1763
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 11: You're fine. I mean what I will say is, like,

1764
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 11: it's an interesting thing about Conde Nast and like a

1765
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 11: lot of I think these media conglomerates, it's like, you know,

1766
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 11: other than like when I am a member of the

1767
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 11: Conde Nasty union, and like I don't really interact with

1768
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 11: people who work elsewhere at Conde Nasket, Like, yeah, I

1769
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:41,640
Speaker 11: interact with the people at my magazine and like the

1770
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 11: people at Bon Appetite and I like generally get along great.

1771
01:33:44,479 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 11: I have a really really awesome relationship with my manager.

1772
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 11: I have a lot of admiration for him and what

1773
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:50,680
Speaker 11: he does. I think he's like the same way that

1774
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 11: you talk about Sophie. I think he's like really great

1775
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:54,760
Speaker 11: at his job. I like have a good relationship with

1776
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:56,280
Speaker 11: our editor in chief. I have a lot of respect

1777
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 11: for her as well. We have a really really solid

1778
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 11: system going where we are like able to make this

1779
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 11: food magazine every month, and able to keep this website online,

1780
01:34:03,439 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 11: and able to make content that we're all like, you know,

1781
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:07,640
Speaker 11: recipes and stories that we're all really really proud of.

1782
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:09,600
Speaker 11: And then at the same time, we were kind of

1783
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 11: subject to this like kind of bigger whatever media machine

1784
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:16,040
Speaker 11: that's like kind of moving around ahead or above us,

1785
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 11: and also moving around like again with just like so

1786
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 11: little transparency. Like yeah, going back to the action on

1787
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,519
Speaker 11: Wednesday the fifth, we have tried to have meetings with Stan,

1788
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 11: Like the executive that we talked to in the hallway,

1789
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:30,800
Speaker 11: the executive that we marched on. We have tried to

1790
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 11: have meetings with him so many times, in so many

1791
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 11: different ways. We have emailed him questions, not gotten responses.

1792
01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 11: We have invited him to like town halls, not gotten responses,

1793
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 11: We invited him to meet with our diversity committee and

1794
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:45,960
Speaker 11: labor relations got mad at us for se seeing him

1795
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:46,559
Speaker 11: on the email.

1796
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 6: God.

1797
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 11: Historically, like that kind of level of the company has

1798
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:53,320
Speaker 11: been extremely averse to interacting with its workers to like

1799
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 11: answering basic questions. Which is why, like when you look

1800
01:34:56,720 --> 01:34:59,080
Speaker 11: at you know, there's a video out there of the interaction,

1801
01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:02,080
Speaker 11: Like this is why we have to march on our

1802
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:04,560
Speaker 11: bosses like this, because there's literally no other way to

1803
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 11: get a single answer out of them because they kind

1804
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:08,640
Speaker 11: of I mean, they exist on this other floor of

1805
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:13,320
Speaker 11: the company altogether. So I don't know, it's very frustrating.

1806
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:16,200
Speaker 11: It's frustrating to like kind of exist in this dual

1807
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:18,640
Speaker 11: system of like, well, we have a magazine that we

1808
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:21,360
Speaker 11: are operating like very effectively on our own, and yet

1809
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:23,160
Speaker 11: there's this entire thing above it that is making these

1810
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 11: decisions about how it ought to function and like what

1811
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:26,639
Speaker 11: it ought to be doing.

1812
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:29,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you don't know what it does because totally

1813
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:31,000
Speaker 3: they're not there, Like they have.

1814
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,439
Speaker 6: Absolutely no idea how your production actually functions.

1815
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 11: I would be surprised if the man who fired me

1816
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:37,280
Speaker 11: knew what my job was.

1817
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:51,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, absolutely not. All the old critiques of like

1818
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 6: the Soviet system were like, oh, there's just this out

1819
01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:56,240
Speaker 6: of touch bureaucraft three hundred miles away making production decisions,

1820
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:57,080
Speaker 6: blah blah blah blah blah.

1821
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, yeah, no, that's actually just like how

1822
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:03,599
Speaker 3: your job works. Is some suit in like another building

1823
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 3: is like, oh, your jobs are all replaceable. Oh you

1824
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:09,240
Speaker 3: can you can do this with like twenty percent less staff.

1825
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 3: Oh I don't even know what you do, but we're

1826
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 3: firing you because we hate you specifically, Like it's just

1827
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:17,719
Speaker 3: terrible way for the world to run.

1828
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, totally. And I mean we have like these models

1829
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:23,519
Speaker 11: of like what successful workplaces can look like, you know,

1830
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 11: like places with militant unions that like actually work, like

1831
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 11: actually give workers to say and what their conditions should

1832
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:31,360
Speaker 11: be and what their conditions are, places that have gotten

1833
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:33,280
Speaker 11: rid of the boss altogether, and like you know, again

1834
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 11: those worker co ops that I listed, Like, there are

1835
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,400
Speaker 11: these functional models of what the future of media can

1836
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:39,000
Speaker 11: look like. And this is the thing that I say

1837
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:40,679
Speaker 11: all the time. It's like the reason that I'm excited

1838
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 11: about being a member of the News Guild. The reason

1839
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:44,479
Speaker 11: I got involved in organizing in the first place is, like,

1840
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 11: I think there is a future of media, Like I

1841
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,360
Speaker 11: think there is a way that like, you know, people

1842
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 11: like you and people like me, like people who write

1843
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:53,639
Speaker 11: and tell stories and like are interested in like talking

1844
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 11: to people and getting their stories out there. I think

1845
01:36:55,920 --> 01:36:58,000
Speaker 11: there are sustainable ways that we can do that. And

1846
01:36:58,080 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 11: I think the people who know how to do like

1847
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 11: the sustainable future of this thing are the people who

1848
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 11: are making the product in the first place. Yeah, Like

1849
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 11: we are the ones with vision, Like we are the

1850
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 11: ones who know how to make something that can continue

1851
01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 11: to exist sustainably, something that can like even under the

1852
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:14,760
Speaker 11: capitalist like framework, like something that can make money, something

1853
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,120
Speaker 11: that can be profitable. A lot of the great journalists

1854
01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 11: I know are like actually very interested in and very

1855
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:22,560
Speaker 11: very good at making work that like generates quite a

1856
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:24,760
Speaker 11: bit of revenue. And I don't think that's a particularly

1857
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:26,600
Speaker 11: bad thing. Like they know how to do this in

1858
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 11: a way that is sustainable, in a way that like

1859
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 11: keeps readers excited and engaged in like willing to like

1860
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 11: pitch in their own ways. The problem is that the

1861
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:35,880
Speaker 11: people who seem to have that know how the people

1862
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:37,519
Speaker 11: who make the thing and the people who know how

1863
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 11: to keep making the thing and the people who are

1864
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 11: making the decisions like aren't the same people.

1865
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1866
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:45,200
Speaker 11: And the way that you fix that divide, like is

1867
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 11: by demanding a seat at the table, is by demanding

1868
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 11: the people who like are making those decisions actually do

1869
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:52,439
Speaker 11: listen to you, and then demanding that they actually follow

1870
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 11: through on the obligation or the things that they say

1871
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 11: they're going to do. One of the really frustrating things

1872
01:37:56,320 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 11: about my termination is like they're saying that I was

1873
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 11: like too aggressive eve and was harassing the chief people officer. Again,

1874
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 11: there's a video I think is extremely exonerating.

1875
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:10,240
Speaker 6: Also, oh wow, the trends woman's being too aggressive?

1876
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:13,600
Speaker 3: Wow, I know how crazy.

1877
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:16,879
Speaker 6: One day they're going to develop a second joke. Wow

1878
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 6: any day.

1879
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 11: Now, No, I know. Actually, one thing, some like Chud

1880
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:24,720
Speaker 11: on the internet who was like trying to make fun

1881
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 11: of me, said I was wearing a wig. I would

1882
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:28,800
Speaker 11: like to stay for the record, I don't wear a wig.

1883
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 11: This is my hair. I grew it myself. It took

1884
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:36,840
Speaker 11: a while, thank you. I agree. Although one of my

1885
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 11: friends told me that I have her fangs. The other day,

1886
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:41,800
Speaker 11: which I really actually it was the day that I

1887
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:46,320
Speaker 11: got fired, come to think of it, before they knew

1888
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:55,600
Speaker 11: to be fair. But no, I know, sorry, what was

1889
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:56,320
Speaker 11: I saying before that?

1890
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,439
Speaker 3: I The last time I got owned that hard was

1891
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:01,080
Speaker 3: my bob hold me a talking head?

1892
01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 6: So you know, it happens some Sometimes you get absolutely obliterated.

1893
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 2: But I love that band, nice good band.

1894
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 11: But if the company like actually believed that I was,

1895
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:14,880
Speaker 11: you know, being too aggressive or like committing, I think

1896
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 11: the words that they use are like grossness conduct, Like

1897
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:20,719
Speaker 11: I know, we have just caused protections in our contract

1898
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 11: that include like an explicit procedure that you're supposed to

1899
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:26,839
Speaker 11: go through for gross miss conduct, Like if the company

1900
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:29,559
Speaker 11: was following the contract, if they like felt the obligation

1901
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,960
Speaker 11: to do so, what should have happened is they shouldn't

1902
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:33,599
Speaker 11: have let me finished the rest of my workday. Instead,

1903
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:35,760
Speaker 11: I should have been escorted out of the building by security.

1904
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 11: I should have been placed on a leave. There should

1905
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 11: have been an investigation with like time for me and

1906
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:42,640
Speaker 11: the union to comment, and then a decision should have

1907
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 11: came out. And the entire time that should have been happening,

1908
01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:48,799
Speaker 11: I should have been paid and like if that sounds greedy, Okay,

1909
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:50,880
Speaker 11: the company agreed to it, like they didn't have to

1910
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 11: sign the contract, but they did. But this is another

1911
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,040
Speaker 11: like concerning trend that we're seeing right now with like

1912
01:39:56,160 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 11: you know, the gutted NLRB and like the kind of yeah,

1913
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:02,920
Speaker 11: you know, shirking of like responsibilities from companies is like

1914
01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 11: companies are like straight up gas lighting workers not things

1915
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:08,519
Speaker 11: that are in the contracts that they agreed to. They

1916
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 11: are like pointing to the contract and saying that it

1917
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,280
Speaker 11: says things that it doesn't say, or that it doesn't

1918
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:15,080
Speaker 11: say things that are like right there for you and

1919
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:18,320
Speaker 11: clearing English stripe before your eyes. Actually, another time that

1920
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 11: we tried to talk to Stan this year was so

1921
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 11: we were based out of New York. Predominantly we have

1922
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:25,640
Speaker 11: remote workers across the country. Although we were told just

1923
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:27,920
Speaker 11: about everybody at the company to start coming into the

1924
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 11: New York offices four days a week. There's a section

1925
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:33,360
Speaker 11: of our contract that says that under a declared state

1926
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:36,640
Speaker 11: of emergency, workers can stay home. Well, this summer in

1927
01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:40,000
Speaker 11: New York, listeners may remember, we had a really massive,

1928
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,680
Speaker 11: like terrible heat wave, like temperatures up in the one

1929
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:45,800
Speaker 11: hundreds every day, like going into the subway stations, and

1930
01:40:45,840 --> 01:40:48,559
Speaker 11: that week, I remember feeling like I was baking during

1931
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 11: the declared state of emergency, which again the contract says

1932
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:54,200
Speaker 11: workers do not have to come into the office. The

1933
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:56,360
Speaker 11: company said, we don't care, you have to come into

1934
01:40:56,400 --> 01:40:59,519
Speaker 11: the office. Paraphrasing those aren't they are exact words that

1935
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 11: they're not too far off. And again we said, okay,

1936
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 11: but the contract says under a declared state of emergency,

1937
01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 11: we don't have to come into the office, And they

1938
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 11: said you have to come into the office four days

1939
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:12,640
Speaker 11: a week, no exceptions. And it is maddening.

1940
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,559
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, that's life threatening, Like oh.

1941
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:17,720
Speaker 11: I mean yeah, absolutely, And I will say, like, you know,

1942
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:19,800
Speaker 11: I've been at the company five years. That makes me

1943
01:41:19,840 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 11: a bit of a long hauler, Like we have people

1944
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 11: who have been at the company for like fifteen twenty years.

1945
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 11: Like there are people who are like near retirement age

1946
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 11: who standing on a subway platform. Again it's New York City.

1947
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:31,759
Speaker 11: People aren't really in air conditioned cars driving to work.

1948
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:34,559
Speaker 11: Like there are people for whom, like at all ages,

1949
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,000
Speaker 11: standing on a subway platform in that kind of heat

1950
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:39,680
Speaker 11: is a really life threatening and like really dangerous thing

1951
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 11: to demand people do, yeah, which is like one of

1952
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:44,240
Speaker 11: the things that we were thinking about when we like

1953
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:46,840
Speaker 11: fought for that contract language, and like one of the

1954
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 11: things that we were thinking about when we were like

1955
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:50,720
Speaker 11: nearly ready, like in fact that we were ready to

1956
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:53,360
Speaker 11: go on strike and like disrupt the met gala in

1957
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:55,680
Speaker 11: May of twenty twenty four. Like that is one of

1958
01:41:55,680 --> 01:41:57,680
Speaker 11: the things that we were thinking about when we drafted that,

1959
01:41:57,720 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 11: and one of the things we were really excited that

1960
01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:01,839
Speaker 11: the company agreed to give us when we want our contract,

1961
01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:04,920
Speaker 11: and so for them to immediately just say, oh, just kidding, well,

1962
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 11: oh well now if we file agreevance, it might take

1963
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:10,320
Speaker 11: like months directify. Well just kidding, those rights that we

1964
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 11: gave you, they don't exist anymore. Sorry. And again it's

1965
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 11: like clear, easy to understand language that they are somehow

1966
01:42:18,040 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 11: willing to just say like the contract doesn't say what

1967
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:20,719
Speaker 11: it says.

1968
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:23,160
Speaker 3: It's It's interesting because I mean, you know, there's like,

1969
01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 3: on the one hand, like companies have always like not

1970
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:26,800
Speaker 3: followed contracts, and it's always been like, Okay, if you

1971
01:42:26,800 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 3: want your contract to do what it says it does,

1972
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:29,560
Speaker 3: you have to force them to do it. But on

1973
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 3: the other hand, like the thing that it reminds me

1974
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:33,879
Speaker 3: of is like one of things happened with the TRUP administration.

1975
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:36,000
Speaker 3: Whenever we're talking about them pissing off their bases, there's

1976
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:39,040
Speaker 3: been a bunch of unions that they've just you knulaterally

1977
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:41,280
Speaker 3: been this is said, this is national security. We don't

1978
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:44,439
Speaker 3: recognize your contract anymore. So for example, like the the

1979
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 3: funny version of is they do this at a prison

1980
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:48,760
Speaker 3: guard union, which is hilarious.

1981
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:52,040
Speaker 6: It's like, yeah, I don't know you guys. You guys

1982
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:52,920
Speaker 6: chat in your own bed.

1983
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:55,000
Speaker 3: Now you have to lie in it, like I don't

1984
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:56,200
Speaker 3: know what to tell you, but like yeah, but like

1985
01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 3: you know, the national government has been doing this to

1986
01:42:58,400 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 3: a bunch of unions.

1987
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 6: They've just been going, I know that we don't have

1988
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 6: to follow this contract. Any work is national.

1989
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:06,240
Speaker 3: Security, and that's the future that all of these people

1990
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 3: want and that they're like, you know, this is part

1991
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 3: of what they're fighting for.

1992
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 6: This is part of that fight.

1993
01:43:10,920 --> 01:43:13,240
Speaker 3: Is that they want to fight where contract union contracts

1994
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:14,840
Speaker 3: don't exist and they could just do whatever they want

1995
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:15,360
Speaker 3: to anyone.

1996
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:17,680
Speaker 11: I mean, there's also like a clear line you can

1997
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 11: draw from say like like the Reagan era and the

1998
01:43:20,400 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 11: like air traffic controller union strike break and then like

1999
01:43:23,320 --> 01:43:26,040
Speaker 11: the way that from like the federal government unions, and

2000
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:28,559
Speaker 11: like the way that the federal government treats its unions.

2001
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 11: That like basically the rest of the American labor movement

2002
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 11: and rather the management side responses to the American labor

2003
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:35,320
Speaker 11: movement generally flow.

2004
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:38,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, is there anything else that you want to

2005
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 6: make sure that people know?

2006
01:43:40,800 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 11: Well, I mean, in the coming days and weeks, the

2007
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:46,479
Speaker 11: union is planning a lot to fight back against the company.

2008
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:51,040
Speaker 11: Oh yeah, that said, one of the things that we

2009
01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:55,599
Speaker 11: know most about media organizations generally is that they are

2010
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:58,120
Speaker 11: very concerned about public pressure and they are very concerned

2011
01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:01,559
Speaker 11: about public image. This is like ap are obsessed industry

2012
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:04,240
Speaker 11: for better and for worse. So we are hoping that

2013
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 11: like readers and you know, fans and followers will keep

2014
01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:10,280
Speaker 11: the pressure up against Conde Nast to show like employers

2015
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:12,320
Speaker 11: like them that like, we will not stand for this.

2016
01:44:12,960 --> 01:44:15,320
Speaker 11: We have an Action Network petition up right now that

2017
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:17,880
Speaker 11: we are going to keep collecting signatures for that we

2018
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,680
Speaker 11: hope to deliver to management soon depending on onence it

2019
01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 11: comes out. I mean, we'll be collecting signatures regardless. And

2020
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 11: that is also one of the best ways signing on

2021
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:27,600
Speaker 11: to that will get you updates for other ways that

2022
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:30,840
Speaker 11: you can you know, support us from the outside. But otherwise,

2023
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 11: I mean, we've got a lot of fighting to do,

2024
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 11: We've got a lot of organizing to do. I certainly

2025
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 11: don't think my days at Conde Nast are over. I

2026
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:43,040
Speaker 11: expect that, like however long it takes for the law

2027
01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 11: of shakeout, like I hope to be reinstated, as do

2028
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 11: the other like three terminated employees. I also am certain

2029
01:44:50,840 --> 01:44:52,760
Speaker 11: that like we will be able to win justice for

2030
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,600
Speaker 11: ourselves and the other people who were like illegally retaliatorially

2031
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 11: disciplined following the action. And I also think that this

2032
01:44:59,880 --> 01:45:02,360
Speaker 11: is nowhere near the last action that Conde Nast upper

2033
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,000
Speaker 11: management should expect. If anything like this is just showing

2034
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:07,839
Speaker 11: us that if we want our contract to be enforced,

2035
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 11: if we want the rights that they said that they

2036
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:11,639
Speaker 11: would give us, we are going to have to keep

2037
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:13,160
Speaker 11: holding them to account, and we are going to have

2038
01:45:13,200 --> 01:45:14,640
Speaker 11: to keep fighting for them.

2039
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:16,320
Speaker 6: Trying to figure out whether or not I can get

2040
01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:18,040
Speaker 6: away with saying you have sown the wind and now

2041
01:45:18,439 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 6: the whirlwind.

2042
01:45:19,400 --> 01:45:29,040
Speaker 10: Oh God, you have sown the bond appetite, and now

2043
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:30,840
Speaker 10: you will get the I can't finish that.

2044
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:36,479
Speaker 6: You've sewed the butt appetite. Now you'll get teen votes too.

2045
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 11: You have sown the bond, and now you'll get the appetite.

2046
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:45,680
Speaker 11: That doesn't mean anything, that's not anything.

2047
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 6: You know.

2048
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:52,479
Speaker 3: Look, it's a struggling time for the whole industry. Yeah,

2049
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:54,200
Speaker 3: And if people want to find you, do you want

2050
01:45:54,240 --> 01:45:54,759
Speaker 3: to be found?

2051
01:45:54,800 --> 01:45:55,120
Speaker 9: A and B.

2052
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:56,720
Speaker 6: If people want to find you, where can they find

2053
01:45:56,720 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 6: your work?

2054
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:57,479
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2055
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:03,520
Speaker 11: Totally. I plan to keep writing and doing journalism for

2056
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,280
Speaker 11: the however long I can allowed to keep doing that.

2057
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:11,439
Speaker 11: So I'm on basically every website as at Goodbye Alma,

2058
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:16,200
Speaker 11: including the Evil Ones sadly. I also I co edit

2059
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:20,080
Speaker 11: a literary magazine with my friend Joyce that's called Picnic Magazine.

2060
01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:23,640
Speaker 11: It's very cool. It's all work by trans contributors. We

2061
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:28,080
Speaker 11: are predominantly a print first publication. You can find us

2062
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:31,160
Speaker 11: at Picnic mag on Instagram. We're also on Blue Sky.

2063
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 11: I should have prepared our at but I'm sure I

2064
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:35,200
Speaker 11: can send that to you afterwards.

2065
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:36,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, well we'll put it in that, we'll put it

2066
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:38,280
Speaker 6: in the station and yeah.

2067
01:46:38,320 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 11: We are available in a few bookstores in big cities

2068
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:43,639
Speaker 11: across the country. We also have a you can download

2069
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:45,360
Speaker 11: our pdf and a pay what you want kind of way.

2070
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 11: We have a second issue coming soon. Although it turns

2071
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,200
Speaker 11: out making a magazine with just two trans women it's

2072
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:55,720
Speaker 11: really difficult. So yeah, check that out. It's all fiction, criticism,

2073
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 11: and poetry by trans contributors. And yeah, follow me at

2074
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:00,680
Speaker 11: Goodbye Alma Online.

2075
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:02,479
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah.

2076
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:04,920
Speaker 3: And if you want actual news that's fit to print,

2077
01:47:04,920 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 3: you're going to have to fight for it, Amanda, that's

2078
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:08,760
Speaker 3: us there.

2079
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:25,000
Speaker 12: Hello everyone.

2080
01:47:25,120 --> 01:47:27,600
Speaker 1: My name is Dana al Kurd and this is it

2081
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:32,240
Speaker 1: could happen here. I'm a professor and researcher of Arab

2082
01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:36,360
Speaker 1: and Pastadian politics and a senior non resident Fellow at

2083
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:40,200
Speaker 1: the Arab Center Washington. Today we're joined by Shaddin Sekai,

2084
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,400
Speaker 1: a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

2085
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 1: Her book Men of Capital, Scarcity and Economy in Mandate

2086
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 1: Palestine explores economy, territory, the home, the body, and she's

2087
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:57,360
Speaker 1: also editor in chief of the Journal of Palestine Studies. Today,

2088
01:47:57,439 --> 01:48:00,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to invite Shadin on to discuss the importance

2089
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:07,360
Speaker 1: of Palestinian knowledge production and Palestinian spaces for writing, researching, analyzing, etc.

2090
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, Shdan, thank you so much for coming.

2091
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:11,680
Speaker 12: On, Thank you for having me.

2092
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:15,680
Speaker 1: So let's maybe start with a very basic question, what

2093
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:17,640
Speaker 1: is the Journal of Palestine Studies? Could you give us

2094
01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:18,519
Speaker 1: kind of an overview?

2095
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:23,400
Speaker 12: Sure? So, the Journal of Palestine Studies is the flagship

2096
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:29,040
Speaker 12: journal of Palestinian studies in the English language. It was

2097
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:33,759
Speaker 12: established in nineteen seventy one, so that makes it fifty

2098
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 12: four years old. First it was part of the then

2099
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,320
Speaker 12: Bay Route based and still Bay Route based Institute for

2100
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 12: Palestine Studies and Kuwait University, which sponsored what was understood

2101
01:48:48,360 --> 01:48:52,000
Speaker 12: at the time as an international forum to discuss all

2102
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:55,720
Speaker 12: aspects of the Palestine question and the Arab Zionist conflict.

2103
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 12: And really the people who established it were looking for

2104
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 12: shaping a space that could discuss these matters freely. And

2105
01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:08,400
Speaker 12: the story of the founders is a really interesting one

2106
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:16,520
Speaker 12: because they were people like Hisham Cherobi, Walidlidi, Brandoshani Fuatzauf,

2107
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:23,200
Speaker 12: and Konstantine Zrich, who actually was the person who coined

2108
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:27,639
Speaker 12: the way that we name the nekba in his book

2109
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:30,280
Speaker 12: Man and Nekba that he wrote in nineteen forty eight,

2110
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:34,040
Speaker 12: in which he coined this term the catastrophe to think

2111
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 12: about nineteen forty eight, which would you know be our

2112
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 12: ongoing condition. And I think the way to think about

2113
01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:44,920
Speaker 12: these people in there, in the way that they began

2114
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:50,320
Speaker 12: their journal is to think about them as really confronting

2115
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 12: a landscape of erasure, denial, and urgency and occupying this

2116
01:49:56,920 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 12: kind of steady, incessant pain of the original inception of

2117
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 12: the Nekba when you know, think about it in nineteen

2118
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 12: seventy one, it was not that long before a decade

2119
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:12,480
Speaker 12: and a half, yeah, right, And I think what's important

2120
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:15,840
Speaker 12: about you know, in the last couple of years, people

2121
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 12: have been kind of making demands about Palestinian studies as

2122
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 12: part of you know, some of the student movements and

2123
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:26,320
Speaker 12: the staff and faculty movements, and I think it's really

2124
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:30,080
Speaker 12: important for people to know that this comes from a

2125
01:50:30,160 --> 01:50:35,800
Speaker 12: much longer tradition of the production of knowledge as a

2126
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 12: real insistence on existence.

2127
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:45,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely Palestinians have been producing knowledge about their state of affairs,

2128
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 1: you know, just like today academics and gaza are producing knowledge, right,

2129
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:56,559
Speaker 1: And I'm always like struck by how just ahead of

2130
01:50:56,560 --> 01:50:58,800
Speaker 1: its time, you know, the general Palistine studies is like

2131
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:01,880
Speaker 1: a lot of our understanding of the conflict that are

2132
01:51:01,920 --> 01:51:06,000
Speaker 1: now finally starting to seep into the mainstream were first

2133
01:51:06,040 --> 01:51:09,719
Speaker 1: discussed in these pages. Some of the research findings about

2134
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:13,320
Speaker 1: the history were first articulated in these pages. And so

2135
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:16,680
Speaker 1: that kind of knowledge production is just it is a

2136
01:51:16,720 --> 01:51:19,800
Speaker 1: form of resistance to erasure.

2137
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,639
Speaker 12: Absolutely and just you know, some of those would be

2138
01:51:22,720 --> 01:51:27,120
Speaker 12: for example, Plandalit, which was the you know, the plan

2139
01:51:27,439 --> 01:51:31,519
Speaker 12: which would lead to the destruction of four hundred and

2140
01:51:31,560 --> 01:51:35,680
Speaker 12: fifty to five hundred and thirty seven Palestinian villages. And

2141
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:41,800
Speaker 12: this plan would come to be recognized through the work

2142
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:47,000
Speaker 12: of Benny Morris as a Israeli historian who had access

2143
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:51,200
Speaker 12: to Israeli documents, but it's actually was Walid Realidi who

2144
01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:57,320
Speaker 12: had been evidencing and showing the empirical foundations of Plan Dalit,

2145
01:51:57,439 --> 01:51:59,800
Speaker 12: and it was in the Journal of Palestine Studies that

2146
01:51:59,800 --> 01:52:04,960
Speaker 12: he publish those findings. In that case, I think that again,

2147
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:10,439
Speaker 12: for people who are really engaging the movement for free

2148
01:52:10,479 --> 01:52:15,160
Speaker 12: Palestine and free Palestinians, we really have to be approaching

2149
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:21,000
Speaker 12: the political economy of who gets to speak and whose

2150
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:25,960
Speaker 12: knowledge production is uplifted as legitimate and worthy. And I

2151
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:29,320
Speaker 12: think you see a lot of this kind of centering

2152
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:33,840
Speaker 12: of Israeli voices, and I think we really have to

2153
01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 12: in this moment. It's urgent to center Palestinian knowledge production.

2154
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:42,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just so many ways that we witness this

2155
01:52:42,400 --> 01:52:46,320
Speaker 1: all the time that it's not something worthy of discussion

2156
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:49,599
Speaker 1: unless it Israeli a voice says it, and there's an

2157
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:53,559
Speaker 1: inherent suspicion about the Palestinian scholar, the Palestinian analyst, the

2158
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:58,439
Speaker 1: Palestinian knowledge producer of some kind. Now, of course, the

2159
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:03,839
Speaker 1: last two years have been upheaval, the genocide and Gauza,

2160
01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 1: a tragedy that we honestly we haven't really absorbed and

2161
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: possibly can't. And we've seen in the last two years

2162
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:19,919
Speaker 1: a concerted effort to erase Palestinians further from the American Academy,

2163
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:23,680
Speaker 1: but from also like scholarship generally speaking. But before I

2164
01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:26,479
Speaker 1: get into that, I wondered if you could kind of

2165
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:30,920
Speaker 1: give your impression of what did doing Palestenian studies look

2166
01:53:31,080 --> 01:53:37,240
Speaker 1: like before October seventh? How was it easy? Was it acceptable?

2167
01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:39,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I know the answers, but I'd like you

2168
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:40,160
Speaker 1: to say.

2169
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:42,680
Speaker 12: Though, so, I think one of the things that's been

2170
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 12: interesting to observe, and I would date this as happening

2171
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:53,520
Speaker 12: around COVID when our colleagues and various disciplines started confronting

2172
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:57,000
Speaker 12: the reality of their archives closing. So I'm a historian,

2173
01:53:57,439 --> 01:54:00,360
Speaker 12: so I speak from that place. You know, people who

2174
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:03,640
Speaker 12: study Europe, people who study the United States, kind of

2175
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:08,960
Speaker 12: confronting the reality that they might not access archives that

2176
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:14,960
Speaker 12: they are accustomed accessing, and in a similar way, facing

2177
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:21,479
Speaker 12: the kind of targeting and surveillance, the bipartisan targeting and

2178
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:27,640
Speaker 12: surveillance of academic knowledge production, and trying to explain to

2179
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:31,000
Speaker 12: people this is what we've existed under all along.

2180
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:32,080
Speaker 6: Now.

2181
01:54:32,120 --> 01:54:37,240
Speaker 12: I think there are similarities across communities of knowledge production.

2182
01:54:37,400 --> 01:54:40,840
Speaker 12: So I think people who work in black studies, who

2183
01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 12: work in indigenous studies, who work in queer studies, gender

2184
01:54:44,040 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 12: and sexuality have also been under the dress of surveillance

2185
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 12: and targeting. I think for those of us who have

2186
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:56,120
Speaker 12: been doing Palestinian studies, what does it mean, especially if

2187
01:54:56,160 --> 01:55:00,040
Speaker 12: you're a Palestinian doing it, but whoever you are, It

2188
01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:02,960
Speaker 12: means you have to show up ten times more ready

2189
01:55:03,000 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 12: than anybody else. It means you have to conduct yourself

2190
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:11,680
Speaker 12: as if you are always being recorded, right. It means

2191
01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:14,880
Speaker 12: that every single word that you say you should be

2192
01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 12: able to stand up for in a court of law,

2193
01:55:18,120 --> 01:55:23,080
Speaker 12: and all of those kinds of restrictions. Actually, you know,

2194
01:55:23,320 --> 01:55:25,960
Speaker 12: you give us lemons. We're going to make lemonade because

2195
01:55:26,320 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 12: those restrictions have imposed on us a kind of rigor.

2196
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:46,080
Speaker 12: That is the least that we can do. It also means,

2197
01:55:46,240 --> 01:55:50,040
Speaker 12: I mean, I think for a lot of us, yourself included, right.

2198
01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 12: I was just somebody was interviewing me yesterday about, oh,

2199
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:58,320
Speaker 12: have you faced harassment or censorship or something? And I think,

2200
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 12: at least in my case, I'm I'm constantly, you know,

2201
01:56:03,680 --> 01:56:06,800
Speaker 12: experiencing these things and just kind of swallowing it, do

2202
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:09,840
Speaker 12: you know what I mean, just getting along with the

2203
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:11,200
Speaker 12: business of the every day.

2204
01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:12,960
Speaker 6: So, you know, there was.

2205
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:17,440
Speaker 12: This moment back in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen where, for

2206
01:56:17,560 --> 01:56:22,480
Speaker 12: whatever reason, every couple of months, one of the bots

2207
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:27,120
Speaker 12: of one of these surveillance websites would start highlighting me

2208
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:34,800
Speaker 12: and insulting me on Twitter, you know, liable calling me names,

2209
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:40,680
Speaker 12: going after how I look like really vulgar, misgendering me,

2210
01:56:41,480 --> 01:56:45,280
Speaker 12: that kind of thing. And I'd come out of my lecture,

2211
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:49,080
Speaker 12: you know, and you know, I teach big classes, and

2212
01:56:49,160 --> 01:56:51,880
Speaker 12: I'd come out of a big, you know, two hundred

2213
01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 12: and fifty percent lecture, which requires so much focus and

2214
01:56:55,880 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 12: energy and being present and you know that adrenaline. And

2215
01:57:00,360 --> 01:57:03,520
Speaker 12: I'd look at my phone and I'd have fifty notifications

2216
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:07,160
Speaker 12: and it would just be one insult after another. And

2217
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:07,800
Speaker 12: that's just.

2218
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:09,360
Speaker 1: Part of the job.

2219
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:14,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, And that's just how it's been, right, like, you know,

2220
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:17,280
Speaker 12: from the beginning, at least of my graduate career, and

2221
01:57:17,400 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 12: I started grad school. You know, September eleven happened when

2222
01:57:21,240 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 12: I was in grad school, and I was in New

2223
01:57:22,640 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 12: York when it happened. And you know, we've been under surveillance,

2224
01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:32,920
Speaker 12: we've been named, we've been watched as part of what

2225
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:35,960
Speaker 12: we do, as you said, And in fact, I got

2226
01:57:35,960 --> 01:57:39,920
Speaker 12: my masters at the Center for Contemporary Studies and they

2227
01:57:40,040 --> 01:57:45,000
Speaker 12: wrote a book back in the eighties about the surveillance

2228
01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:48,360
Speaker 12: and I think it's called They Dare to Speak, well, right, right, yeah,

2229
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 12: these early accounts of the concerted attempt to silence us.

2230
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:57,520
Speaker 12: And so what I like to remind people is at

2231
01:57:57,520 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 12: this moment, you know, you said, oh, they're trying to

2232
01:57:59,440 --> 01:58:03,200
Speaker 12: erase Palestinian scholarship. I mean, at least they're trying to

2233
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 12: erase the voices who are putting forward a critical take

2234
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 12: on Israeli sellar colonialism and genocide. And I think what

2235
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:16,440
Speaker 12: I like to remind people is that there is way

2236
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 12: more of us now than there's ever been before.

2237
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.

2238
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 12: Ten years ago, people like you and me wouldn't have

2239
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 12: jobs in the academy. It may be in a couple

2240
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:29,120
Speaker 12: of years we won't have jobs, but I don't know,

2241
01:58:29,480 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 12: Like I'm not I don't want to sit on our

2242
01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 12: laurels and think, oh, okay, we arrived. In any case,

2243
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,840
Speaker 12: the whole concept of arrival and career arrival at this

2244
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:43,480
Speaker 12: moment has completely changed for me. I don't know how

2245
01:58:43,480 --> 01:58:46,160
Speaker 12: it is for you, But the effect of the genocide

2246
01:58:46,200 --> 01:58:50,040
Speaker 12: has made it so that the bankruptcy of the institutions

2247
01:58:50,120 --> 01:58:56,160
Speaker 12: we work for, the rapid ways in which they're engaging

2248
01:58:56,240 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 12: with obedience and authoritarianism. Yep. Yeah, it's like what we've

2249
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 12: worked for our whole careers. It's like, well, I don't

2250
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 12: think this makes sense actually, do you know?

2251
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: Right?

2252
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:10,000
Speaker 12: So I would say it's been like that all along.

2253
01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:13,960
Speaker 12: People even sitting to you things like oh there, what

2254
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:15,920
Speaker 12: do you mean you study Palestine?

2255
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:17,400
Speaker 6: You know, like what is that?

2256
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:18,600
Speaker 12: Yeah?

2257
01:59:19,120 --> 01:59:22,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm in a different discipline,

2258
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:26,720
Speaker 1: but certainly it was. I remember as a student hungry

2259
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,880
Speaker 1: for information. I mean, it was rare to find something

2260
01:59:29,880 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 1: about the Middle East to be taught, let alone Palestine.

2261
01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 1: The level to which they delegitimized Arab and Palestinian sources

2262
01:59:40,480 --> 01:59:45,000
Speaker 1: or questions of importance to Palestinians and Arabs normatively speaking,

2263
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:49,240
Speaker 1: politically speaking, also theoretically speaking, I mean, I mean, I

2264
01:59:49,240 --> 01:59:51,840
Speaker 1: can tell you so many stories, Like every person who's

2265
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:53,920
Speaker 1: ever wanted to study Palestine, especially as you said, if

2266
01:59:53,960 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 1: you are Palestinian, is discouraged from it and is told

2267
01:59:57,240 --> 02:00:00,760
Speaker 1: not to, is told this doesn't fit, is told. You know,

2268
02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:04,320
Speaker 1: I'm in political science. The theories don't account for Palestine.

2269
02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:07,960
Speaker 1: It's just outside of space and time and theory, and

2270
02:00:08,440 --> 02:00:10,920
Speaker 1: you can't account for it, you can't discuss it. And

2271
02:00:11,160 --> 02:00:14,360
Speaker 1: the harassment, the harassment campaigns all of us have been facing,

2272
02:00:15,120 --> 02:00:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it takes such a mental and emotional toll,

2273
02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:21,760
Speaker 1: and yet we produce, and yet we get tenure, and

2274
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 1: yet we teach our classes, and we're excellent in our teaching,

2275
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 1: and our students love us and want to learn. But

2276
02:00:29,280 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, as you said, like it really has exposed

2277
02:00:32,440 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 1: the degree to which these universities because they have been

2278
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:39,280
Speaker 1: well one like we are in America, but also because

2279
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 1: they have been so divorced from their actual missions. Like

2280
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:46,480
Speaker 1: how meaningless the space this has now become. But that's

2281
02:00:46,480 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: like on the harassment and like kind of these kinds

2282
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:52,080
Speaker 1: of obstacle side. I also think like people don't recognize

2283
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:56,600
Speaker 1: like the resources that are needed to teach and study

2284
02:00:56,720 --> 02:01:01,880
Speaker 1: and research Palestine that other people in the academy, other

2285
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:06,080
Speaker 1: knowledge producers get very easily. And it's there is so

2286
02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:10,200
Speaker 1: little for people who study Palestine, and of course that

2287
02:01:10,280 --> 02:01:13,200
Speaker 1: impacts what kind of academics are able to do this

2288
02:01:13,360 --> 02:01:17,360
Speaker 1: and how many people we even missing from this discussion, right,

2289
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:20,000
Speaker 1: I agree with you that has been the condition before

2290
02:01:20,000 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 1: October seventh. I think now after October seventh, that after

2291
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:25,880
Speaker 1: they have attempted to use Palestine as kind of a

2292
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:31,080
Speaker 1: cudgel to attack the higher education generally, like now people

2293
02:01:31,120 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 1: are recognizing it maybe more, but that has always definitely

2294
02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 1: been the case.

2295
02:01:35,360 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 6: Oh.

2296
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:40,160
Speaker 1: Also, I just wanted to remind listeners and bring it up,

2297
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:44,720
Speaker 1: Like I remember Barry Weiss who is now the head

2298
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:48,120
Speaker 1: of CBS. I mean she made her claim to fame

2299
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:52,879
Speaker 1: attacking Arab and Palestinian professors in Colombia as an undergrad,

2300
02:01:53,920 --> 02:01:55,400
Speaker 1: and that's seen us totally valid.

2301
02:01:56,120 --> 02:02:00,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, no, I mean I think, you know, Palestine has cugel.

2302
02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 12: And also, you know, I've been saying this for a while,

2303
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:07,000
Speaker 12: Palestine is paradigm, right. You know, if you look at

2304
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:12,000
Speaker 12: the memdenuine, I think it reveals also kind of what

2305
02:02:12,160 --> 02:02:17,560
Speaker 12: Palestine also stands for, which is the way that both

2306
02:02:17,920 --> 02:02:22,760
Speaker 12: the Democratic and the Republican Party have really no link

2307
02:02:22,840 --> 02:02:27,240
Speaker 12: to the popular realities on the ground, right, and that

2308
02:02:27,440 --> 02:02:31,520
Speaker 12: in effect, you know, part of the Trump base was

2309
02:02:31,560 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 12: really responding to this disparity, right, this lack of investment

2310
02:02:38,040 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 12: and in the political system. And I think, you know

2311
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:45,560
Speaker 12: that for me was the I don't have hope in

2312
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:48,960
Speaker 12: electoral politics. And you know, I don't want to be

2313
02:02:49,000 --> 02:02:52,520
Speaker 12: cynical or anything, but I think what the memdnni wind

2314
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:57,880
Speaker 12: shows us is that people are disgruntled and they're sick

2315
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:04,200
Speaker 12: of the kind of extractive billionaire class doing what they

2316
02:03:04,280 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 12: want to do at the expense of the rest of us.

2317
02:03:06,520 --> 02:03:10,440
Speaker 12: And I think the media is really complicit in all

2318
02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:16,120
Speaker 12: of this, absolutely complicit in the genocide. It's been absolutely

2319
02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:20,000
Speaker 12: complicit since the you know, war on Iraq, since the

2320
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:27,960
Speaker 12: Second War on Iraq, in rendering news as entertainment, you know,

2321
02:03:28,520 --> 02:03:31,280
Speaker 12: And and it's like you could see the freak out

2322
02:03:31,320 --> 02:03:36,400
Speaker 12: that people had, the media had about mem Denny across

2323
02:03:36,440 --> 02:03:38,879
Speaker 12: the board. It wasn't just the Fox News.

2324
02:03:38,760 --> 02:03:40,440
Speaker 1: No New York Times, everybody.

2325
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 12: Yeah, and all of the you know television media too.

2326
02:03:44,560 --> 02:03:48,040
Speaker 12: So it's just I think it's I think there's also

2327
02:03:48,160 --> 02:03:50,720
Speaker 12: a link to higher education in that way, because I

2328
02:03:50,760 --> 02:03:55,040
Speaker 12: think there has been an investment in making people stupid.

2329
02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:58,600
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, absolutely,

2330
02:03:58,640 --> 02:04:00,760
Speaker 1: I mean that's exactly what I was going to say.

2331
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:06,240
Speaker 1: Is the Palestinian issue and Palestine studies and research and

2332
02:04:06,280 --> 02:04:09,720
Speaker 1: knowledge production, the fact that there exists the few Palestinians

2333
02:04:09,760 --> 02:04:13,920
Speaker 1: in higher education has been used to attack higher education.

2334
02:04:14,080 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 1: But it's not really about Palestine. I mean, it is

2335
02:04:16,520 --> 02:04:18,080
Speaker 1: a little bit about palasaide. Of course these people are

2336
02:04:18,080 --> 02:04:23,240
Speaker 1: anti Palstinian, but it's about preventing social mobility. So you're saying, like,

2337
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:26,640
Speaker 1: there's all this disgruntlement in the public space. Our students

2338
02:04:26,680 --> 02:04:30,560
Speaker 1: are disgruntled. They want to learn, They've been promised something

2339
02:04:30,560 --> 02:04:33,880
Speaker 1: with this college education, and you know, even the slight

2340
02:04:33,960 --> 02:04:36,480
Speaker 1: bit of social mobility that has existed as a result

2341
02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:39,640
Speaker 1: of higher education is too much for the Trump administration. Yeah,

2342
02:04:39,720 --> 02:04:42,520
Speaker 1: it's too much for this right wing. So Palestine is

2343
02:04:42,520 --> 02:04:45,160
Speaker 1: a class issue, absolutely.

2344
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:49,040
Speaker 12: No, it absolutely is. You know, are as are all

2345
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:52,080
Speaker 12: of the kind of struggles we stand on solidarity with.

2346
02:04:52,240 --> 02:04:56,640
Speaker 12: You know, it's like, really it is intersectional. And we

2347
02:04:56,720 --> 02:05:00,200
Speaker 12: didn't need Trump to teach us that. But that's the

2348
02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:03,360
Speaker 12: lesson that keeps being delivered time and again. And one

2349
02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:06,040
Speaker 12: of the things that's really struck me, and this has

2350
02:05:06,120 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 12: been the case for the last ten years, eleven years,

2351
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:12,160
Speaker 12: long before Trump, and I think one of the challenges

2352
02:05:12,200 --> 02:05:17,680
Speaker 12: we face today is not to overdetermine the Trump administration

2353
02:05:17,960 --> 02:05:21,080
Speaker 12: as the site of all of the catastrophes that we're

2354
02:05:21,120 --> 02:05:23,120
Speaker 12: in today. And one of the things I've noted for

2355
02:05:23,160 --> 02:05:26,240
Speaker 12: the last fourteen years is I don't have to teach

2356
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:30,760
Speaker 12: students that history isn't about things always getting better. That's

2357
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:34,600
Speaker 12: not a lesson. They need to know. They understand that

2358
02:05:34,800 --> 02:05:40,400
Speaker 12: teleology and the fallacy of advancement is a lie. They

2359
02:05:40,480 --> 02:05:43,440
Speaker 12: understand that because they live it, as you say, you know,

2360
02:05:43,480 --> 02:05:46,000
Speaker 12: they're in debt, especially those of us who teach at

2361
02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:49,640
Speaker 12: public universities. You know, most of our students are indebted.

2362
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:52,840
Speaker 12: A lot of them have two or three jobs. They're

2363
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 12: housing insecure, their food insecure. They don't have a clear

2364
02:05:56,960 --> 02:05:57,960
Speaker 12: vision of the future.

2365
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:02,440
Speaker 1: And if they protest side, they're labeled antisemitic. Yeah, their

2366
02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:06,160
Speaker 1: university's cracked down on them, they're docsed. I mean, it's

2367
02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:07,040
Speaker 1: so outrageous.

2368
02:06:07,680 --> 02:06:11,240
Speaker 12: Obviously, I don't need to tell you their identification with

2369
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:15,440
Speaker 12: Palestine is also about their own experiences with repression, of course,

2370
02:06:15,800 --> 02:06:20,080
Speaker 12: So I think that's the that really is the momentum

2371
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:24,880
Speaker 12: you know that we're witnessing. Is is that kind of identification? Yeah?

2372
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:39,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think it's important for listeners to know some

2373
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:42,360
Speaker 1: of the contours of what has happened after October seventh,

2374
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:44,280
Speaker 1: And like you said, it's not a Trump thing, it

2375
02:06:44,360 --> 02:06:47,800
Speaker 1: started under Biden. About how Palestine has been used in

2376
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:50,080
Speaker 1: the academy, I mean, as I said earlier, I have

2377
02:06:50,240 --> 02:06:52,800
Speaker 1: done an episode on this, so I will link that.

2378
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:56,520
Speaker 1: But also you know, there is now evidence and data

2379
02:06:56,840 --> 02:07:00,640
Speaker 1: around how this issue has been weaponized. So the AAUP,

2380
02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:03,760
Speaker 1: the American Association of University Professors, alongside the Middle Ease

2381
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:06,680
Speaker 1: Studies Association, just put out a report on this exact

2382
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:11,000
Speaker 1: question about how titles six investigations, so investigations of alleged

2383
02:07:11,240 --> 02:07:15,440
Speaker 1: discrimination specifically about anti semitism and nothing else. First of all,

2384
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:17,280
Speaker 1: there's been a huge uptick in them and have been

2385
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:21,440
Speaker 1: used to target these universities. Vast majority of these cases

2386
02:07:21,440 --> 02:07:25,280
Speaker 1: has to do with faculty extra mural speech, so like

2387
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:30,200
Speaker 1: these faculty members having an opinion about genocide outside the classroom.

2388
02:07:30,480 --> 02:07:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I always remember I think Edward Side said,

2389
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:36,240
Speaker 1: like being a Palestinian academy is like being an outlaw.

2390
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:39,440
Speaker 1: That's like how it feels. That's how it feels.

2391
02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:44,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's fugitive labor for sure. Yeah, definitely, And I

2392
02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:47,840
Speaker 12: think one of the findings has been also, I don't

2393
02:07:47,880 --> 02:07:50,840
Speaker 12: know if it's ninety five percent of the cases have

2394
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:54,520
Speaker 12: been shown to be be fraudulent. Yeah, it'd be totally fraudulent.

2395
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:58,560
Speaker 12: So yeah, it's a real policing of speech. It's a

2396
02:07:58,640 --> 02:08:04,800
Speaker 12: real kind of weaponization of the charge of anti semitism,

2397
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:08,320
Speaker 12: And honestly, sort of one of the things I think

2398
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 12: that really happens too, is that students don't get the

2399
02:08:11,360 --> 02:08:17,080
Speaker 12: tools to actually recognize and understand actually existing anti semitism,

2400
02:08:17,400 --> 02:08:21,600
Speaker 12: right as it is being rehearsed in like these show

2401
02:08:21,640 --> 02:08:25,440
Speaker 12: trials that we saw in Congress, and these in the

2402
02:08:25,520 --> 02:08:30,800
Speaker 12: rhetoric of many of the people affiliated with the administration,

2403
02:08:31,680 --> 02:08:35,520
Speaker 12: in the kinds of alliances that even the Israeli state

2404
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 12: right has made with various right wing anti Semitic states.

2405
02:08:41,640 --> 02:08:45,440
Speaker 12: So it's like, I think one of the things that

2406
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:50,480
Speaker 12: it's kind of like watching a train wreck, just hitting

2407
02:08:50,760 --> 02:08:54,040
Speaker 12: one train after another and just being like, what is

2408
02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:59,320
Speaker 12: this absurdity? You know, I myself was accused of being

2409
02:08:59,360 --> 02:09:04,160
Speaker 12: anti semi for having a history of anti Semitism. So

2410
02:09:05,000 --> 02:09:10,240
Speaker 12: what surprises me is the way that people are allowing

2411
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 12: and facilitating this to happen, you know, and the way

2412
02:09:13,560 --> 02:09:17,880
Speaker 12: that they're not able to recognize how high the stakes

2413
02:09:17,920 --> 02:09:21,040
Speaker 12: are what it means to be a Palestinian in this moment.

2414
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:25,800
Speaker 12: You know, when you've been sitting watching for two years

2415
02:09:25,880 --> 02:09:29,720
Speaker 12: your people being shredded and you're facing the reality of

2416
02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 12: what the stakes are in this moment, which is the

2417
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:38,240
Speaker 12: annihilation of Palestine and the annihilation of Palestinians, your threshold

2418
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:45,200
Speaker 12: for a shock becomes very high. And so I mean,

2419
02:09:45,400 --> 02:09:47,760
Speaker 12: I'm sure it's the same for you. I don't know

2420
02:09:47,840 --> 02:09:53,280
Speaker 12: if like what. It's like a constant trauma response. You know, absolutely, yeah,

2421
02:09:53,720 --> 02:09:58,200
Speaker 12: they're My emotional reactions are shut down, and I'm in

2422
02:09:58,280 --> 02:10:02,080
Speaker 12: a state of being in the present. Okay, we got

2423
02:10:02,120 --> 02:10:05,920
Speaker 12: through today, Hopefully we'll get through tomorrow. I don't I

2424
02:10:06,440 --> 02:10:09,760
Speaker 12: kind of am prepared for the worst at all times.

2425
02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:14,640
Speaker 12: And you know, it's a condition of vigilance that I

2426
02:10:14,680 --> 02:10:19,720
Speaker 12: think people when they continue to feed this kind of

2427
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 12: right wing agenda of making people stupid and eroding even

2428
02:10:24,600 --> 02:10:29,240
Speaker 12: the possibility of higher education, it's the kind of condition

2429
02:10:29,400 --> 02:10:32,720
Speaker 12: that will be much more general, you know. Yeah, and

2430
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:35,480
Speaker 12: all these ice rates at the same time. You know,

2431
02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:38,320
Speaker 12: it's I just saw I haven't been able to listen

2432
02:10:38,320 --> 02:10:42,440
Speaker 12: to it. But a scholar who powerfully is talking about

2433
02:10:42,560 --> 02:10:47,440
Speaker 12: the Mexico Palestine border and the and the links between

2434
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:50,480
Speaker 12: ice and the idea and the and the ways to

2435
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,800
Speaker 12: think about these two things together.

2436
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:56,240
Speaker 1: And please share that with me. I haven't seen it.

2437
02:10:56,680 --> 02:11:00,120
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, as you said, when we take away

2438
02:11:00,360 --> 02:11:03,720
Speaker 1: Palestine from the Academy, when we use Palestine to attack

2439
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:07,200
Speaker 1: the academy. As imperfect as the Academy is, it is

2440
02:11:07,320 --> 02:11:13,120
Speaker 1: this larger attempt to take away people's analytical tools and

2441
02:11:13,280 --> 02:11:17,720
Speaker 1: frameworks to understanding their reality, to understanding how their reality

2442
02:11:17,720 --> 02:11:20,800
Speaker 1: intersects with these other things, because they don't want you

2443
02:11:20,880 --> 02:11:23,520
Speaker 1: to be able to solve it. They don't want you

2444
02:11:23,560 --> 02:11:26,400
Speaker 1: to be able to mobilize. And then of course there's this,

2445
02:11:26,560 --> 02:11:29,200
Speaker 1: as I said, this class dimension of wanting to keep

2446
02:11:29,200 --> 02:11:31,320
Speaker 1: people in their place. There are too many black and

2447
02:11:31,320 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 1: brown people in the academy. Now we can't have that

2448
02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:36,440
Speaker 1: kind of social mobility. I just want to emphasize for

2449
02:11:36,520 --> 02:11:41,240
Speaker 1: the listeners why it's so important for Palestine to be

2450
02:11:41,320 --> 02:11:43,200
Speaker 1: researched and studied and things like that is self evident.

2451
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:44,560
Speaker 1: I don't need to explain it. But why is it

2452
02:11:44,640 --> 02:11:48,000
Speaker 1: so important that Palestinians are the ones who do that?

2453
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, again, it feels self evident, but I'll say

2454
02:11:51,040 --> 02:11:56,440
Speaker 1: it like, Palestinians have agency, and they are full human beings,

2455
02:11:56,800 --> 02:12:00,520
Speaker 1: and they know best what questions are relevant, and they

2456
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:04,080
Speaker 1: have a unique perspective on the issue of Palestine as

2457
02:12:04,080 --> 02:12:08,280
Speaker 1: well as other issues. And so not only are you

2458
02:12:08,560 --> 02:12:11,000
Speaker 1: engaging in the rature of Palestinians when you don't amplify

2459
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:16,080
Speaker 1: that kind of knowledge production, but you are making scholarship poorer.

2460
02:12:16,480 --> 02:12:22,040
Speaker 1: You are limiting what you know about this issue. Yeah,

2461
02:12:22,080 --> 02:12:28,280
Speaker 1: so what do you think, you know, kind of broadly speaking, students, scholars, sympathizers,

2462
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:30,040
Speaker 1: what do you think they should do in this moment.

2463
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:33,280
Speaker 12: I want to just go back to the point about

2464
02:12:33,320 --> 02:12:36,919
Speaker 12: why is it important to have to sure Palestinian voices,

2465
02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:39,800
Speaker 12: Because when we say that, we're not doing it in

2466
02:12:39,840 --> 02:12:44,120
Speaker 12: an identitarian way, right of course, Yeah, anybody who wants

2467
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:48,080
Speaker 12: to study Palestine should study Palestine. In doing so, you

2468
02:12:48,280 --> 02:12:52,360
Speaker 12: should be centering the lessons that Palestinians have offered us

2469
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:56,280
Speaker 12: first and foremost in this moment, the Palestinians of the

2470
02:12:56,320 --> 02:12:59,200
Speaker 12: Gaza strip and in my own practice at the Journal

2471
02:12:59,720 --> 02:13:01,680
Speaker 12: of philos Steine Studies. What I've tried to do in

2472
02:13:01,680 --> 02:13:05,040
Speaker 12: each of the editor's notes is really lift up all

2473
02:13:05,080 --> 02:13:09,560
Speaker 12: of the testimonies that we've received from Palestinians in Gaza,

2474
02:13:10,480 --> 02:13:13,320
Speaker 12: written and social media and all of these, but also

2475
02:13:13,400 --> 02:13:19,080
Speaker 12: lift up the international voices of Palestinians like yourself and

2476
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:22,720
Speaker 12: many many people who are writing and giving us tools

2477
02:13:22,720 --> 02:13:26,680
Speaker 12: to understand and analyze. And the reason that's important is

2478
02:13:26,800 --> 02:13:31,360
Speaker 12: because the main problem that we face, I believe, is

2479
02:13:31,400 --> 02:13:35,880
Speaker 12: the way that certain people are more susceptible to being

2480
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:40,280
Speaker 12: excluded from the category of the human. Once you exclude

2481
02:13:40,280 --> 02:13:43,680
Speaker 12: people from the category of the human, it's much easier

2482
02:13:44,200 --> 02:13:47,640
Speaker 12: to kill them and make them expendable. And I think

2483
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 12: our work really in centering Palestinian voices rejects that logic, right,

2484
02:13:54,240 --> 02:13:57,840
Speaker 12: rejects the logic of are we human or not? Are

2485
02:13:57,880 --> 02:14:00,160
Speaker 12: we going to evidence our humanity or not? You know,

2486
02:14:00,200 --> 02:14:03,680
Speaker 12: we tell our stories, and I think that telling of

2487
02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 12: the story changes the angle of vision. If you're looking

2488
02:14:07,880 --> 02:14:12,240
Speaker 12: at what's happening in the Gaza strip from the perspective

2489
02:14:12,400 --> 02:14:15,000
Speaker 12: of people who are living it, you will see different

2490
02:14:15,040 --> 02:14:19,800
Speaker 12: things then if you're looking at it from you know,

2491
02:14:20,600 --> 02:14:25,280
Speaker 12: a drone or you know, a geopolitical lens. So that's

2492
02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:25,800
Speaker 12: one thing.

2493
02:14:25,880 --> 02:14:26,200
Speaker 6: I think.

2494
02:14:26,240 --> 02:14:30,120
Speaker 12: Another thing that's really important is you know, I mean

2495
02:14:30,800 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 12: Mahma Dwish said this actually in an interview in journal

2496
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:39,280
Speaker 12: Pasteine Studies. He said, you know, the Palestinians are talked

2497
02:14:39,320 --> 02:14:46,000
Speaker 12: about because they're facing Israeli Jews, because the Jewish question.

2498
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:48,520
Speaker 1: Is the question of Europe. Oh that's right, yeah.

2499
02:14:48,800 --> 02:14:52,000
Speaker 12: And I find that one of the things that continues

2500
02:14:52,080 --> 02:14:57,200
Speaker 12: to be an issue until now is that what scholars

2501
02:14:57,240 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 12: and thinkers and analysts are judicating is the question of

2502
02:15:01,360 --> 02:15:06,919
Speaker 12: Europe and the question of the sustainability of European values

2503
02:15:06,960 --> 02:15:10,800
Speaker 12: and European notions and all of these things. And I'm

2504
02:15:10,840 --> 02:15:13,720
Speaker 12: not interested in that. I want to center the question

2505
02:15:13,760 --> 02:15:18,400
Speaker 12: of Palestine and what kind of other tools that might

2506
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:22,000
Speaker 12: offer us. So, I think, in a way link to

2507
02:15:22,800 --> 02:15:26,400
Speaker 12: what the earlier conversation about a political economy of value

2508
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:30,840
Speaker 12: of scholars, right, there's a kind of also here a

2509
02:15:30,840 --> 02:15:35,200
Speaker 12: political economy of concepts. And I believe that we have

2510
02:15:35,360 --> 02:15:41,000
Speaker 12: to really provincialize Europe. We have to provincialize Europe as

2511
02:15:41,480 --> 02:15:44,360
Speaker 12: the means and the ends of all things. It is

2512
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:48,440
Speaker 12: not generalizable. No, just ask different questions and look at

2513
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:52,040
Speaker 12: it from a different perspective in terms of what do

2514
02:15:52,120 --> 02:15:55,840
Speaker 12: I think students and scholars and all of us should do.

2515
02:15:56,760 --> 02:16:02,839
Speaker 12: Is it's going to sound strange, but first and foremost study, read, learn,

2516
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:08,800
Speaker 12: Those are the critical tools that you gain that will

2517
02:16:08,840 --> 02:16:12,920
Speaker 12: allow you to defend yourself in a world that is intent.

2518
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:13,919
Speaker 1: On making you stupid.

2519
02:16:14,640 --> 02:16:17,720
Speaker 12: We all have to reject that. I think there it's

2520
02:16:17,760 --> 02:16:23,560
Speaker 12: a moment where there's a temptation to slide into sensationalism

2521
02:16:24,080 --> 02:16:28,680
Speaker 12: or to slide into circulating, especially on social media and

2522
02:16:28,680 --> 02:16:31,160
Speaker 12: that whole economy. Right, So I think we have to

2523
02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:34,520
Speaker 12: be vigilant. I think we have to be rigorous, and

2524
02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:37,199
Speaker 12: I think we have to study. And I think more

2525
02:16:37,280 --> 02:16:40,760
Speaker 12: than anything else, the lesson I keep coming back to

2526
02:16:41,400 --> 02:16:43,200
Speaker 12: is we have to take care of each other in

2527
02:16:43,240 --> 02:16:44,760
Speaker 12: the communities that we build.

2528
02:16:46,360 --> 02:16:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. I think you begin arming yourself

2529
02:16:51,320 --> 02:16:55,920
Speaker 1: with the tools to understand this moment and think of

2530
02:16:56,720 --> 02:16:59,760
Speaker 1: ways to defend yourself in your community. And you can't

2531
02:16:59,760 --> 02:17:03,480
Speaker 1: do it that without being grounded in this knowledge that came

2532
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:07,680
Speaker 1: before you. So listeners, please crack open a Journal of

2533
02:17:07,720 --> 02:17:11,400
Speaker 1: Palestine Studies, and of course I'll link to all of

2534
02:17:11,440 --> 02:17:13,880
Speaker 1: this in the in the show notes. Siday and I

2535
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:15,840
Speaker 1: could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much

2536
02:17:15,879 --> 02:17:17,720
Speaker 1: for your time. This has been really interesting.

2537
02:17:17,879 --> 02:17:20,920
Speaker 12: Thank you so much for having me and for all

2538
02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:21,840
Speaker 12: the work that you do.

2539
02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:25,879
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, listeners. I'm going to also put

2540
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:29,600
Speaker 1: in the show notes a fundraising campaign for the Journal

2541
02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:33,439
Speaker 1: of filesTime Studies. So if you can, you have the capacity,

2542
02:17:33,879 --> 02:17:37,879
Speaker 1: it's a sure fire away to help resist these dynamics.

2543
02:17:37,959 --> 02:17:39,520
Speaker 1: All right, thanks so much, Take care.

2544
02:17:57,800 --> 02:18:00,880
Speaker 6: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly

2545
02:18:00,920 --> 02:18:03,320
Speaker 6: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling

2546
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:06,199
Speaker 6: world and what this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis

2547
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:09,560
Speaker 6: today am joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans.

2548
02:18:10,040 --> 02:18:14,880
Speaker 6: This episode recovering the week of November thirteenth to November nineteenth.

2549
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:18,080
Speaker 6: The biggest news I think of this whole week. Jd

2550
02:18:18,240 --> 02:18:21,200
Speaker 6: Vance has been sentenced to two years in prison for

2551
02:18:21,280 --> 02:18:25,199
Speaker 6: threatening Donald Trump and jd Vance. This is, of course

2552
02:18:25,560 --> 02:18:31,320
Speaker 6: James Donald Vance Junior different jd Vance, a sixty seven

2553
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:33,199
Speaker 6: year old man from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

2554
02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:36,200
Speaker 2: Second. Jd Vance has hit the Discourse.

2555
02:18:36,160 --> 02:18:40,920
Speaker 6: Who's also named Donald, which is phenomenal, amazing, It's amazing.

2556
02:18:42,160 --> 02:18:44,200
Speaker 6: Who plead a guilty to three criminal accounts based on

2557
02:18:44,240 --> 02:18:47,640
Speaker 6: the social media posts about killing the President, the Vice President,

2558
02:18:47,720 --> 02:18:49,280
Speaker 6: Elon Musk and Trump Junior.

2559
02:18:49,680 --> 02:18:51,880
Speaker 5: Jeez yeah, don a good cod Garrison.

2560
02:18:51,920 --> 02:18:54,200
Speaker 13: I would quibble that that is the biggest story this

2561
02:18:54,280 --> 02:18:57,240
Speaker 13: week because this is the week of cause that Nicki

2562
02:18:57,320 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 13: Minaj addressed the United Nation.

2563
02:19:00,640 --> 02:19:02,160
Speaker 2: This is a week where years happened.

2564
02:19:02,920 --> 02:19:03,879
Speaker 5: Ye Nicki Minaj.

2565
02:19:03,920 --> 02:19:06,320
Speaker 13: If readers are familiar with her, it will doubtless be

2566
02:19:06,320 --> 02:19:10,000
Speaker 13: because of her contributions to Discourse on her cousin's friends testicles.

2567
02:19:10,800 --> 02:19:14,320
Speaker 13: But this time she's back and she is talking about

2568
02:19:14,320 --> 02:19:15,360
Speaker 13: the person's baby.

2569
02:19:15,520 --> 02:19:17,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what we do here.

2570
02:19:18,840 --> 02:19:21,960
Speaker 13: She's talking about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria. Just

2571
02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:25,560
Speaker 13: for listener to another way. Nicki Minaj is from Trinidad.

2572
02:19:26,200 --> 02:19:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah not.

2573
02:19:26,920 --> 02:19:29,160
Speaker 13: Don't worry if any particular expertise or insight she has

2574
02:19:29,240 --> 02:19:29,760
Speaker 13: on a topic.

2575
02:19:30,800 --> 02:19:33,039
Speaker 5: But yeah, she she did that this week.

2576
02:19:33,400 --> 02:19:34,800
Speaker 6: Yep, at the United Nations.

2577
02:19:35,120 --> 02:19:37,840
Speaker 2: How did do we know? How she decided that this

2578
02:19:38,000 --> 02:19:40,160
Speaker 2: was a problem she needed to get involved.

2579
02:19:40,360 --> 02:19:44,920
Speaker 13: She reposted a truth that Donald Trump had made great

2580
02:19:45,000 --> 02:19:47,240
Speaker 13: and I've had a great start. I believe they reached

2581
02:19:47,280 --> 02:19:50,879
Speaker 13: out on the basis of that. There's some tremendous like

2582
02:19:50,959 --> 02:19:56,640
Speaker 13: statements calling her the greatest female recording artist in history. Yeah, yeah,

2583
02:19:56,920 --> 02:19:59,360
Speaker 13: which sets us up nicely for a Nicki Minaj Dolly

2584
02:19:59,440 --> 02:20:00,760
Speaker 13: part in beef.

2585
02:20:01,000 --> 02:20:01,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2586
02:20:01,360 --> 02:20:03,600
Speaker 5: I think I joined on the side of Dolly Potton

2587
02:20:03,640 --> 02:20:04,240
Speaker 5: in that one.

2588
02:20:04,400 --> 02:20:06,200
Speaker 2: It would be hard not to, yep.

2589
02:20:06,680 --> 02:20:09,320
Speaker 13: So yeah, I guess she She reposted a thing about

2590
02:20:09,360 --> 02:20:11,800
Speaker 13: a truth that led to him reaching out, and she

2591
02:20:13,000 --> 02:20:17,520
Speaker 13: volunteered her time to address the United Nations. Organizations set

2592
02:20:17,600 --> 02:20:20,720
Speaker 13: up after Wood what to to try and prevent genocides.

2593
02:20:21,680 --> 02:20:23,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, outstanding.

2594
02:20:24,320 --> 02:20:29,320
Speaker 6: The truth is so beautiful. Yes, speaking of the truth

2595
02:20:29,680 --> 02:20:34,039
Speaker 6: and the truth coming to light, we're talking about Jeffrey

2596
02:20:34,040 --> 02:20:35,440
Speaker 6: Epstein again, I guess.

2597
02:20:35,520 --> 02:20:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. The ongoing revelations based on j He's this guy's

2598
02:20:39,520 --> 02:20:42,039
Speaker 2: post depth career has really been one for the books.

2599
02:20:42,959 --> 02:20:46,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, he really really rivals Michael Jackson in more than

2600
02:20:46,360 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 6: one way.

2601
02:20:47,000 --> 02:20:49,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, or Tupac, I would I would say Tupac.

2602
02:20:51,240 --> 02:20:51,280
Speaker 9: No.

2603
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:54,800
Speaker 2: There it was when when fucking John McAfee died, there

2604
02:20:54,800 --> 02:20:57,200
Speaker 2: were all these people being like, oh, he's got you know,

2605
02:20:57,320 --> 02:20:59,680
Speaker 2: because his McAfee had lied and said, I've got like

2606
02:20:59,760 --> 02:21:02,240
Speaker 2: an insurance folder that'll come out in the event of

2607
02:21:02,280 --> 02:21:05,440
Speaker 2: my death that'll, you know, reveal a bunch of top

2608
02:21:05,520 --> 02:21:07,720
Speaker 2: level secrets. And John McAfee didn't know shit.

2609
02:21:08,560 --> 02:21:08,920
Speaker 9: He was.

2610
02:21:09,360 --> 02:21:11,800
Speaker 2: He was a crazy old drug addict who killed his

2611
02:21:11,920 --> 02:21:17,520
Speaker 2: nephew and then fled to South America or Central America anyway, whatever,

2612
02:21:17,600 --> 02:21:19,680
Speaker 2: one of the America's one of the part He fled

2613
02:21:19,720 --> 02:21:21,560
Speaker 2: to a different America than the one that he came

2614
02:21:21,600 --> 02:21:24,560
Speaker 2: from anyway. But that's actually happening with Jeffrey Epstein. We

2615
02:21:24,840 --> 02:21:27,120
Speaker 2: actually now have a lot of dirt on a lot

2616
02:21:27,120 --> 02:21:30,840
Speaker 2: of people. Larry Summers just left the board of Open

2617
02:21:30,879 --> 02:21:34,920
Speaker 2: AI because he was revealed as a rampant misogynist and

2618
02:21:35,000 --> 02:21:38,040
Speaker 2: friend of a pedophile sex trafficker. Not a good look.

2619
02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:42,119
Speaker 6: He's also announced that, after finishing his current class at Harvard,

2620
02:21:42,160 --> 02:21:44,560
Speaker 6: he will be resigning from Harvard University.

2621
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:46,840
Speaker 2: What a loss for Harvard. I don't know how they're

2622
02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:47,240
Speaker 2: gonna run.

2623
02:21:47,240 --> 02:21:51,080
Speaker 6: Well, it's the biggest los since President Gay. Yeah.

2624
02:21:51,120 --> 02:21:54,640
Speaker 2: Look, Harvard, if you need someone to teach his class,

2625
02:21:54,879 --> 02:21:56,640
Speaker 2: I'll do it. I don't know what his class is.

2626
02:21:56,840 --> 02:22:02,280
Speaker 2: I don't actually know what Larry does, what his expertise is,

2627
02:22:02,440 --> 02:22:03,880
Speaker 2: but I feel like I could do a better job.

2628
02:22:03,959 --> 02:22:04,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, bring me in.

2629
02:22:05,000 --> 02:22:06,640
Speaker 5: We do know a little bit about what Larry does

2630
02:22:06,640 --> 02:22:07,920
Speaker 5: in that is the problem.

2631
02:22:08,040 --> 02:22:08,200
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2632
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:16,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, the sex crimes right after recording Executive Disorder last week.

2633
02:22:16,879 --> 02:22:22,440
Speaker 6: Not the most important, but certainly the oddest. Email was

2634
02:22:22,879 --> 02:22:26,800
Speaker 6: uncovered as a part of that big document's release. This

2635
02:22:26,840 --> 02:22:32,520
Speaker 6: is an exchange from twenty eighteen between Mark Epstein and

2636
02:22:32,920 --> 02:22:38,640
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Epstein to brothers. Let's start with Mark, how are

2637
02:22:38,680 --> 02:22:41,119
Speaker 6: you doing? A while back? You mentioned that you were

2638
02:22:41,160 --> 02:22:44,480
Speaker 6: pre diabetic. Has anything changed with that? What is your

2639
02:22:44,640 --> 02:22:50,080
Speaker 6: boy Donald up to now? Jeffrey replies, all good, Bannon

2640
02:22:50,240 --> 02:22:55,640
Speaker 6: with me. Mark replies, ask him if Putin has the

2641
02:22:55,640 --> 02:23:02,120
Speaker 6: photos of Trump blowing Bubba. You know, yeah, I'm going

2642
02:23:02,200 --> 02:23:09,800
Speaker 6: to continue the exchange, yeah, because, Jeffrey replies, and I

2643
02:23:09,840 --> 02:23:15,200
Speaker 6: thought I had terrists. Mark replies, you and your boy

2644
02:23:15,480 --> 02:23:19,160
Speaker 6: Donnie can make a remake of the movie Get Hard

2645
02:23:20,000 --> 02:23:21,760
Speaker 6: sent via tin Can and a string.

2646
02:23:22,560 --> 02:23:23,120
Speaker 2: Oh god.

2647
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:27,200
Speaker 6: Jeffrey replied, you mean Donnie T And Mark replied, I'd

2648
02:23:27,320 --> 02:23:30,680
Speaker 6: rather be in Donnie D's shoes. That's the exchange.

2649
02:23:30,720 --> 02:23:33,480
Speaker 2: Also, what Epstein said was was sires, which is a

2650
02:23:33,600 --> 02:23:36,840
Speaker 2: Yiddish word that means like problems, like I got I

2651
02:23:36,879 --> 02:23:39,640
Speaker 2: got problems, I got shit, I'm a I'm all fucked up,

2652
02:23:39,680 --> 02:23:46,000
Speaker 2: which he was. He was not wrong about that.

2653
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:53,040
Speaker 6: Look, Yeah, so Bubba. Many people have speculated that this

2654
02:23:53,080 --> 02:23:57,320
Speaker 6: could be a reference to former President Bill Clinton, whose

2655
02:23:57,440 --> 02:24:01,520
Speaker 6: nickname was Bubba, and whose name is Bubba in some

2656
02:24:01,600 --> 02:24:04,480
Speaker 6: of these other emails, or is referred to as pub

2657
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:06,279
Speaker 6: in some of his other emails, which.

2658
02:24:06,080 --> 02:24:08,440
Speaker 2: Is something that I've seen surprise a lot of people.

2659
02:24:08,520 --> 02:24:10,879
Speaker 2: If you grew up in the nineties, you were aware

2660
02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:13,840
Speaker 2: that his nickname was Bubba, but he has not been

2661
02:24:13,879 --> 02:24:16,440
Speaker 2: called Bubba in a very long time when he like

2662
02:24:16,640 --> 02:24:19,360
Speaker 2: lost all that weight and went vegan and like it

2663
02:24:19,720 --> 02:24:22,320
Speaker 2: kind of stopped seeming like as much of a Bubba

2664
02:24:22,440 --> 02:24:24,560
Speaker 2: as he did when he was the president. The Saturday

2665
02:24:24,640 --> 02:24:27,960
Speaker 2: Night Live made fun of in that great McDonald's sketch.

2666
02:24:28,480 --> 02:24:31,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, continue gare.

2667
02:24:31,879 --> 02:24:33,520
Speaker 6: I mean, and I don't know how abut what else

2668
02:24:33,560 --> 02:24:36,320
Speaker 6: there is to say here? You know, photos have been

2669
02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:39,279
Speaker 6: recirculating bub Trump, Yes.

2670
02:24:39,080 --> 02:24:41,359
Speaker 5: Bubba Gump shrimp, Well, the real.

2671
02:24:41,120 --> 02:24:42,360
Speaker 2: Bubba, please stand up.

2672
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:46,600
Speaker 6: Photos have been recirculating of Trump, I would say, groping

2673
02:24:47,040 --> 02:24:51,039
Speaker 6: Bill Clinton's penis. Yeah, yep, yep.

2674
02:24:51,320 --> 02:24:56,200
Speaker 2: There's more there than you'd expect, right, yes, yeah, but.

2675
02:24:57,120 --> 02:25:00,640
Speaker 6: Bubba has referred to a few people, Yeah, including other

2676
02:25:00,640 --> 02:25:05,040
Speaker 6: people like in Epstein's circle, like a golfer and models. Yeah,

2677
02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:10,520
Speaker 6: but Bubba was also the name of Gleainne Maxwell's horse. Oh.

2678
02:25:10,640 --> 02:25:13,920
Speaker 2: I'm just not hearing this, and that's I'm sorry. And

2679
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:17,920
Speaker 2: here's the thing. I see the appeal to believing that

2680
02:25:18,000 --> 02:25:21,520
Speaker 2: this is the answer. I simply don't believe Donald Trump

2681
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:24,320
Speaker 2: ever had that kind of throat game. I'm sorry, I

2682
02:25:24,400 --> 02:25:27,080
Speaker 2: just don't. I just don't accept that this is.

2683
02:25:27,000 --> 02:25:30,880
Speaker 6: By far the funniest possibility that he did like a

2684
02:25:31,000 --> 02:25:33,760
Speaker 6: joke photo shoot where he pretended.

2685
02:25:35,360 --> 02:25:37,560
Speaker 2: I can see him doing that.

2686
02:25:37,760 --> 02:25:42,160
Speaker 6: This is really understandable. This is like, this is really doable.

2687
02:25:43,120 --> 02:25:44,240
Speaker 2: Haven't we all been there?

2688
02:25:45,080 --> 02:25:46,360
Speaker 13: So that is.

2689
02:25:48,160 --> 02:25:52,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, take this however you will, Like

2690
02:25:52,280 --> 02:25:55,080
Speaker 6: Mark Epstein, has denied that the bubba referred to the

2691
02:25:55,120 --> 02:25:58,520
Speaker 6: email is a reference to Bill Clinton, while also admitting

2692
02:25:58,560 --> 02:26:00,520
Speaker 6: in this same like interview to News Nation and a

2693
02:26:00,560 --> 02:26:03,520
Speaker 6: statement that like, you know, Jeffrey certainly did have dirt

2694
02:26:03,520 --> 02:26:05,480
Speaker 6: on the president and thought that he was the only

2695
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:09,680
Speaker 6: one that could sink both candidates career in twenty sixteen,

2696
02:26:09,760 --> 02:26:11,959
Speaker 6: both both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

2697
02:26:12,080 --> 02:26:13,320
Speaker 2: Pretty good chance that's true.

2698
02:26:13,360 --> 02:26:17,280
Speaker 6: Actually yeah, but he he for what it worth is

2699
02:26:17,320 --> 02:26:20,959
Speaker 6: saying it's not a reference to Clinton. Who who knows

2700
02:26:21,959 --> 02:26:24,240
Speaker 6: that there's a real sort of you know, if if

2701
02:26:24,280 --> 02:26:27,000
Speaker 6: you if you want to do the sort of pop

2702
02:26:27,040 --> 02:26:29,400
Speaker 6: Marxist line is there's a real sort of historical unity

2703
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:32,160
Speaker 6: of the ruling class moment. When you read these emails

2704
02:26:32,600 --> 02:26:37,120
Speaker 6: and the people in them, it's like it's Bill Clinton.

2705
02:26:37,280 --> 02:26:40,280
Speaker 6: It's Bill Clinton's like the people around Bill Clinton it's

2706
02:26:40,520 --> 02:26:44,360
Speaker 6: Ken Starr. And you know, you go back and you

2707
02:26:44,400 --> 02:26:46,120
Speaker 6: look at like you look at like the actual like

2708
02:26:46,160 --> 02:26:49,039
Speaker 6: impiachment of Bill Clinton, right, and you realize that every

2709
02:26:49,080 --> 02:26:53,000
Speaker 6: single one of these people are all friends with Jeffrey

2710
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:58,000
Speaker 6: Epstein and are just kind of hanging out like yeah

2711
02:26:58,160 --> 02:27:00,480
Speaker 6: on like on the pedophile and.

2712
02:27:00,440 --> 02:27:04,879
Speaker 14: It's just, yeah, it's something that you couldn't It's like

2713
02:27:04,959 --> 02:27:09,760
Speaker 14: the most the most sort of on the nose, like

2714
02:27:09,920 --> 02:27:13,200
Speaker 14: I like completely didactic, I'm pounding your head with a hammer,

2715
02:27:13,560 --> 02:27:16,520
Speaker 14: like Marxist thing from nineteen sixty where they go, yeah,

2716
02:27:16,600 --> 02:27:19,080
Speaker 14: all of the presidents are hanging out on pedophile Island

2717
02:27:19,520 --> 02:27:22,480
Speaker 14: like consecretly conspiring behind your back, and they're taking photos

2718
02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:25,199
Speaker 14: of them like grabbing each other's dicks like you wouldn't believe.

2719
02:27:25,240 --> 02:27:27,600
Speaker 6: But it's like no, no, no, no, this is just this

2720
02:27:28,040 --> 02:27:30,360
Speaker 6: is just the historical unity of the ruling class is

2721
02:27:31,120 --> 02:27:33,320
Speaker 6: literally they're all friends with this pedophile.

2722
02:27:33,640 --> 02:27:37,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's just these are all wealthy, powerful people and

2723
02:27:38,080 --> 02:27:40,720
Speaker 2: the only people that they socialize with is each other.

2724
02:27:40,760 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 2: You know. The New York Times came up with an

2725
02:27:42,480 --> 02:27:44,800
Speaker 2: out with an article this week that was like the

2726
02:27:44,840 --> 02:27:48,040
Speaker 2: Epstein emails or an insight into an old New York

2727
02:27:48,160 --> 02:27:49,959
Speaker 2: long departed or since.

2728
02:27:50,320 --> 02:27:53,440
Speaker 13: Yeah, that was an incredible headline, and yeah, I mean

2729
02:27:53,680 --> 02:27:54,080
Speaker 13: it was.

2730
02:27:54,160 --> 02:27:56,520
Speaker 2: This was like the transition between all of these people

2731
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:59,720
Speaker 2: writing each other letters and all of these people just

2732
02:28:00,080 --> 02:28:04,320
Speaker 2: bitching publicly on the internet, openly and losing their minds.

2733
02:28:04,400 --> 02:28:08,360
Speaker 2: Like the awkward interstittle period was them all emailing each

2734
02:28:08,400 --> 02:28:10,960
Speaker 2: other from their iPads. Right, So, to that extent, the

2735
02:28:10,959 --> 02:28:13,400
Speaker 2: New York Times article is right. Not the main takeaway

2736
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:16,320
Speaker 2: from the Jeffrey Epstein emails, I would say, probably not

2737
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:19,439
Speaker 2: worth an article in the Times, but it's not wrong technically.

2738
02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:22,280
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, it's a fascinating thing to choose to go.

2739
02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:24,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, that poor horse.

2740
02:28:25,959 --> 02:28:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little bit. It's a little bit like

2741
02:28:29,080 --> 02:28:31,960
Speaker 2: a journalist showing up in Berlin in late nineteen forty

2742
02:28:32,000 --> 02:28:35,240
Speaker 2: five and like going through like papers in the ruins

2743
02:28:35,320 --> 02:28:37,600
Speaker 2: of the Reichstag and being like, wow, this really reveals

2744
02:28:37,600 --> 02:28:45,640
Speaker 2: a lost to Berlin. Like, I mean, yeah, that's really

2745
02:28:45,760 --> 02:28:46,200
Speaker 2: the point.

2746
02:28:49,800 --> 02:28:52,920
Speaker 6: Any other comments on on Bubba.

2747
02:28:53,160 --> 02:28:55,400
Speaker 5: Did anyone ask guys his brother about the Hortz.

2748
02:28:56,160 --> 02:28:58,720
Speaker 6: I don't believe Mark has been asked about the horse.

2749
02:28:59,680 --> 02:29:02,039
Speaker 2: Mark is in a not that I have a ton

2750
02:29:02,080 --> 02:29:05,160
Speaker 2: of sympathy for this guy, but just recognizing things objectively,

2751
02:29:05,920 --> 02:29:08,600
Speaker 2: he's in a tough position because his brother is an

2752
02:29:08,879 --> 02:29:13,520
Speaker 2: was an incredibly famous he'shit a file sex trafficker, and

2753
02:29:14,040 --> 02:29:19,720
Speaker 2: he is desperately trying not to get disappeared by the regime.

2754
02:29:20,480 --> 02:29:23,039
Speaker 2: Or he also knows what'll come after the regime, so

2755
02:29:23,080 --> 02:29:25,000
Speaker 2: he doesn't want to set himself in a self up

2756
02:29:25,000 --> 02:29:27,280
Speaker 2: in a way where he gets in trouble from that either, right,

2757
02:29:27,400 --> 02:29:32,080
Speaker 2: Like it's a legitimately complicated situation he finds himself in

2758
02:29:32,680 --> 02:29:35,640
Speaker 2: that his brother just kind of laughed for him. And again,

2759
02:29:35,680 --> 02:29:37,640
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of sympathy for the man,

2760
02:29:37,720 --> 02:29:39,560
Speaker 2: but I can recognize it because he also said at

2761
02:29:39,560 --> 02:29:42,280
Speaker 2: the same time, he was like this definitely was not him,

2762
02:29:42,320 --> 02:29:44,960
Speaker 2: referring to Donald Trump giving a blowjob to Bill Clinton.

2763
02:29:45,360 --> 02:29:48,279
Speaker 2: He did also say that he believed that the Republicans

2764
02:29:48,280 --> 02:29:51,400
Speaker 2: were removing the names of Republicans from the Epstein files

2765
02:29:51,400 --> 02:29:54,280
Speaker 2: before release. Right, So he's he has been like hedging

2766
02:29:54,360 --> 02:29:57,120
Speaker 2: his bets because again he's in a lot of danger.

2767
02:29:57,840 --> 02:30:00,560
Speaker 6: H in trouble.

2768
02:30:01,120 --> 02:30:03,040
Speaker 2: This man, this man is in trouble.

2769
02:30:03,440 --> 02:30:08,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, I would not be granted infused I was him,

2770
02:30:08,520 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 13: I would be I wouldn't say shit, yeah, like literally

2771
02:30:12,640 --> 02:30:13,959
Speaker 13: under the ground.

2772
02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would I would, for one thing, not be

2773
02:30:15,959 --> 02:30:18,720
Speaker 2: in a country that extradited. Would I would never set

2774
02:30:18,840 --> 02:30:21,720
Speaker 2: foot in a country with extradition treaties to the Western

2775
02:30:21,720 --> 02:30:22,600
Speaker 2: world Again.

2776
02:30:22,440 --> 02:30:26,080
Speaker 13: Yeah, the next strike in Venezuela will be Mark Epstein.

2777
02:30:26,200 --> 02:30:28,720
Speaker 2: I would be living in Tehran right now.

2778
02:30:28,760 --> 02:30:33,720
Speaker 6: Like, let's talk about Marjorie Trader Green.

2779
02:30:34,720 --> 02:30:40,200
Speaker 2: Sure, why not? Yeah, so Marjorie Taylor Green is part

2780
02:30:40,240 --> 02:30:41,560
Speaker 2: of the resistance.

2781
02:30:41,040 --> 02:30:43,320
Speaker 6: Now hashtag welcome to the Resistance.

2782
02:30:43,640 --> 02:30:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

2783
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:46,360
Speaker 5: It's very like and Or.

2784
02:30:47,680 --> 02:30:49,760
Speaker 2: Sure, it's like that point in and Or where the

2785
02:30:49,800 --> 02:30:53,400
Speaker 2: person who did nothing but help Emperor Palpatine suddenly at

2786
02:30:53,400 --> 02:30:55,840
Speaker 2: the last minute was like, you know what, this guy

2787
02:30:55,879 --> 02:30:57,360
Speaker 2: want a step too far from me, you know?

2788
02:30:57,640 --> 02:31:01,760
Speaker 6: Or Ah, Actually I hate you too much that I

2789
02:31:01,800 --> 02:31:03,880
Speaker 6: think that's the I think that's the reality.

2790
02:31:04,000 --> 02:31:05,800
Speaker 13: I wasn't sure if there was an analog for anti

2791
02:31:05,800 --> 02:31:08,560
Speaker 13: Semitism in the Star Warcks universe. That I wasn't Well,

2792
02:31:09,080 --> 02:31:11,640
Speaker 13: you probably don't want to, you know what, I've asked

2793
02:31:11,680 --> 02:31:12,400
Speaker 13: the wrong people.

2794
02:31:14,000 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 6: Right now, you have three hours, James.

2795
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:22,480
Speaker 2: In the early two thousands, George Lucas invented some names

2796
02:31:22,520 --> 02:31:25,680
Speaker 2: that are themselves hate crimes. Just be remembering the names

2797
02:31:25,760 --> 02:31:27,240
Speaker 2: is a hate Crime, James, do.

2798
02:31:27,200 --> 02:31:29,320
Speaker 6: You want to read about the troyd Arians.

2799
02:31:30,000 --> 02:31:34,039
Speaker 13: No, No, I'm as far as I get into into

2800
02:31:34,120 --> 02:31:37,280
Speaker 13: Star Wars Big Tree discourse is Jia jar Binks and

2801
02:31:37,600 --> 02:31:39,199
Speaker 13: after that I leave.

2802
02:31:39,640 --> 02:31:43,359
Speaker 6: Well from the same movie. But no. So, Yeah, Marjorie

2803
02:31:43,360 --> 02:31:46,840
Speaker 6: has been more combative against some of the you know,

2804
02:31:46,920 --> 02:31:50,560
Speaker 6: Trump cultist mega right on a few issues. One she's

2805
02:31:50,680 --> 02:31:54,840
Speaker 6: extended her already evidenced anti Semitism all a Jewish space

2806
02:31:54,879 --> 02:31:58,840
Speaker 6: lasers towards foreign policy in this like America First Nick

2807
02:31:58,879 --> 02:32:04,160
Speaker 6: Fuentzi way of being critical of Israel. You see seeds

2808
02:32:04,160 --> 02:32:06,440
Speaker 6: of this because like Martin Taylor Green like attended the

2809
02:32:06,520 --> 02:32:09,720
Speaker 6: Nick Fuontes America First conferences like four years ago, Like

2810
02:32:09,720 --> 02:32:12,400
Speaker 6: this is this side of it not a surprising turn

2811
02:32:12,480 --> 02:32:16,959
Speaker 6: for her. Her finally flipping on Trump in terms of

2812
02:32:17,000 --> 02:32:20,040
Speaker 6: the pedophile stuff may be a little bit surprising because

2813
02:32:20,120 --> 02:32:23,560
Speaker 6: she was the original like QAnon candidate. Yeah, and q

2814
02:32:23,720 --> 02:32:26,520
Speaker 6: Andon's built on this, like trying to justify in some

2815
02:32:26,600 --> 02:32:30,359
Speaker 6: ways Trump's proximity to Epstein by building this grand narrative.

2816
02:32:30,640 --> 02:32:33,279
Speaker 2: And she made a statement recently that she's no longer

2817
02:32:33,440 --> 02:32:35,600
Speaker 2: all in on the q stuff right like she had

2818
02:32:35,720 --> 02:32:38,000
Speaker 2: she is. This is a pivot for her, but it's

2819
02:32:38,000 --> 02:32:41,320
Speaker 2: a pivot that's pretty consistent with you know, her anti

2820
02:32:41,360 --> 02:32:42,240
Speaker 2: sense and it makes sense.

2821
02:32:42,520 --> 02:32:45,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense with with the Israel

2822
02:32:45,959 --> 02:32:48,760
Speaker 6: foreign policy stuff. It also makes sense in terms of

2823
02:32:49,240 --> 02:32:53,119
Speaker 6: Trump's made a lot more statements directly addressing this Epstein stuff,

2824
02:32:53,320 --> 02:32:55,600
Speaker 6: which kind of does call into question some of like

2825
02:32:55,640 --> 02:32:59,120
Speaker 6: the Q narratives, which for someone like Marjorie might actually

2826
02:32:59,120 --> 02:33:01,400
Speaker 6: get her to kind of ref on some of like

2827
02:33:01,440 --> 02:33:04,800
Speaker 6: this Trump cultish status that she's had for a while.

2828
02:33:05,800 --> 02:33:11,080
Speaker 6: This has frustrated Trump, and you know, Trump's also been

2829
02:33:11,080 --> 02:33:14,760
Speaker 6: frushtyed with other members like Lauren Bobert and other like

2830
02:33:15,000 --> 02:33:19,040
Speaker 6: congress people who were pledging to vote in support of

2831
02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:21,280
Speaker 6: the release of the Epstein files. And this pressure was

2832
02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:24,560
Speaker 6: building a lot last week during this like twenty thousand

2833
02:33:25,400 --> 02:33:29,480
Speaker 6: document release and all this new news coverage and as

2834
02:33:29,560 --> 02:33:31,840
Speaker 6: these as more and more Republicans bean to deflect from

2835
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:34,720
Speaker 6: Trump over the release of the Epstein files. Trump himself

2836
02:33:34,879 --> 02:33:38,920
Speaker 6: flipped his rhetoric over this past weekend, still calling the

2837
02:33:38,920 --> 02:33:43,080
Speaker 6: debate over the files a Democrat hoax, but truthing that

2838
02:33:43,120 --> 02:33:46,000
Speaker 6: the files should be released because we quote unquote have

2839
02:33:46,200 --> 02:33:50,040
Speaker 6: nothing to hide, and he called on Republicans to vote

2840
02:33:50,040 --> 02:33:52,039
Speaker 6: in favor of the bill to release the Epstein files,

2841
02:33:52,400 --> 02:33:55,680
Speaker 6: which they did on Tuesday in a four hundred and

2842
02:33:55,680 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 6: twenty seven to one vote, with Representative Clay Higgins, the

2843
02:33:59,600 --> 02:34:04,200
Speaker 6: republic In from Louisiana, the only Congressman to vote no.

2844
02:34:05,000 --> 02:34:09,160
Speaker 6: Hours later, Chuck Schumer unanimously passed the measure through the Senate.

2845
02:34:09,760 --> 02:34:12,800
Speaker 6: Mike Johnson had previously expected the Senate to amend the

2846
02:34:12,840 --> 02:34:18,160
Speaker 6: bill to quote make sure we don't do permanent damage

2847
02:34:18,160 --> 02:34:23,560
Speaker 6: to the political system unquote, and after its passage through

2848
02:34:23,600 --> 02:34:27,800
Speaker 6: the Senate, Johnson seemed quite worried that it went through

2849
02:34:27,800 --> 02:34:29,879
Speaker 6: the upper chambers in its current form. And I want

2850
02:34:29,879 --> 02:34:32,240
Speaker 6: to play this clip here because it's kind of shocking

2851
02:34:32,320 --> 02:34:34,240
Speaker 6: to hear him, hear him freak out.

2852
02:34:34,520 --> 02:34:37,600
Speaker 3: And before we say this, you owe it to yourself

2853
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:40,600
Speaker 3: as a person to go actually look at this clip

2854
02:34:40,600 --> 02:34:41,640
Speaker 3: and watch his face.

2855
02:34:42,080 --> 02:34:44,000
Speaker 6: It is amazing.

2856
02:34:45,320 --> 02:34:46,400
Speaker 5: Sorry, I haven't seen this.

2857
02:34:46,560 --> 02:34:48,760
Speaker 6: I'm excited it'll be in the sources below.

2858
02:34:49,640 --> 02:34:52,600
Speaker 15: Any reaction to r foon you seeing the bill without

2859
02:34:52,640 --> 02:34:53,679
Speaker 15: adding amendments.

2860
02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:56,760
Speaker 2: Or changing it, I am.

2861
02:34:56,920 --> 02:34:58,640
Speaker 5: I'm deeply disappointed in this outcome.

2862
02:34:58,680 --> 02:35:01,600
Speaker 2: I think I'm told I've been at the State dinner.

2863
02:35:01,640 --> 02:35:03,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was just told that Chuck Schumer

2864
02:35:03,720 --> 02:35:06,200
Speaker 2: rushed it to the floor and put it out there preemptively.

2865
02:35:06,879 --> 02:35:08,000
Speaker 6: It needed amendments.

2866
02:35:08,320 --> 02:35:10,080
Speaker 2: I just spoke to President about that, and we'll see

2867
02:35:10,120 --> 02:35:10,520
Speaker 2: what happened.

2868
02:35:10,560 --> 02:35:12,080
Speaker 5: So is he do you think he may beat on it?

2869
02:35:12,120 --> 02:35:14,120
Speaker 7: You say you spoke, I'm not saying that.

2870
02:35:14,240 --> 02:35:16,240
Speaker 12: Is he supportive of it in its current form?

2871
02:35:17,600 --> 02:35:20,280
Speaker 13: We both have concerned about it, so we'll see.

2872
02:35:20,320 --> 02:35:22,160
Speaker 6: As I was staying there with the Crown friends with

2873
02:35:22,440 --> 02:35:25,119
Speaker 6: in Paul, are you frustrating the majority leader?

2874
02:35:25,440 --> 02:35:26,800
Speaker 2: Are you up with the majority leader?

2875
02:35:28,840 --> 02:35:29,160
Speaker 6: Cool?

2876
02:35:30,040 --> 02:35:30,320
Speaker 2: Nice?

2877
02:35:30,600 --> 02:35:33,720
Speaker 6: What a what a normal? What a normal interaction? That

2878
02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:35,400
Speaker 6: is also also worth doing.

2879
02:35:35,440 --> 02:35:37,040
Speaker 3: The very end of that video, he says I was

2880
02:35:37,080 --> 02:35:40,040
Speaker 3: eating with the Crown Prince because he is again walking

2881
02:35:40,080 --> 02:35:43,119
Speaker 3: out of a state dinner with one Mohammad bin Selmond

2882
02:35:43,480 --> 02:35:48,960
Speaker 3: the the yeah, I don't even list of war crimes here,

2883
02:35:49,240 --> 02:35:54,480
Speaker 3: the Sudanese child soldier, exterminator, et cetera, et cetera.

2884
02:35:55,560 --> 02:35:58,240
Speaker 6: But no, It's safe to say that both Johnson and

2885
02:35:58,360 --> 02:36:02,840
Speaker 6: President Trump have concerns about the state of the bill,

2886
02:36:02,879 --> 02:36:05,640
Speaker 6: and Johnson samed a little bit wishy washy on if

2887
02:36:05,680 --> 02:36:08,680
Speaker 6: the President would even sign this or veto this. Now,

2888
02:36:08,720 --> 02:36:14,039
Speaker 6: it's not all bad for the president. I oh, I'd

2889
02:36:14,160 --> 02:36:16,280
Speaker 6: like to seal Donnie J wiggle his way out of

2890
02:36:16,320 --> 02:36:21,680
Speaker 6: this jam. This bill that has passed does allow Attorney

2891
02:36:21,720 --> 02:36:25,080
Speaker 6: General and Bondy to withhold or redact portions of the

2892
02:36:25,080 --> 02:36:30,119
Speaker 6: files that could jeopardize active federal investigations and personally determine

2893
02:36:30,160 --> 02:36:34,480
Speaker 6: if information in the files should remain classified to protect

2894
02:36:34,959 --> 02:36:39,720
Speaker 6: national security. The last weekend, Trump ordered BONDI to launch

2895
02:36:39,720 --> 02:36:45,320
Speaker 6: investigations looking into connection between Epstein and prominent Democratic politicians

2896
02:36:45,400 --> 02:36:51,440
Speaker 6: and donors. Here's clip from a Wednesday, November nineteenth press conference.

2897
02:36:52,040 --> 02:36:54,920
Speaker 16: Attorney General, do you mean that you will provide all

2898
02:36:55,000 --> 02:36:57,160
Speaker 16: the files by thirty days?

2899
02:36:57,600 --> 02:37:02,680
Speaker 17: We will follow the law. The law both chambers last evening.

2900
02:37:02,760 --> 02:37:05,440
Speaker 17: It has not yet been signed, but we will continue

2901
02:37:05,440 --> 02:37:09,920
Speaker 17: to follow the law again while protecting victims but also

2902
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:13,240
Speaker 17: providing maximum transparency.

2903
02:37:13,080 --> 02:37:17,720
Speaker 16: That Maternity General the DLJ statement earlier this year saying

2904
02:37:17,760 --> 02:37:21,560
Speaker 16: that the files would not release mention the fact that

2905
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:25,480
Speaker 16: the review of the documents and the evidence did not

2906
02:37:25,600 --> 02:37:30,040
Speaker 16: suggest that any additional investigation of third parties was warranted.

2907
02:37:30,760 --> 02:37:34,000
Speaker 16: What changed since then that you launched this investigation?

2908
02:37:34,600 --> 02:37:40,960
Speaker 17: Information that has come for information, there's information that new information,

2909
02:37:41,160 --> 02:37:44,680
Speaker 17: additional information, and again we will continue to follow the

2910
02:37:44,760 --> 02:37:47,880
Speaker 17: law to investigate any leads. If there are any victims,

2911
02:37:47,879 --> 02:37:51,240
Speaker 17: we encourage all victims to come forward, and we will

2912
02:37:51,280 --> 02:37:56,039
Speaker 17: continue to provide maximum transparency under the law.

2913
02:37:57,320 --> 02:37:59,119
Speaker 6: Very normal, very normal response.

2914
02:38:00,480 --> 02:38:02,760
Speaker 2: Uh huh, Yeah, that's that doesn't sound sketchy.

2915
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:07,039
Speaker 3: I have never, at any point in the last eight years,

2916
02:38:07,720 --> 02:38:10,080
Speaker 3: twelve years, however long we've been in this hellscap been

2917
02:38:10,120 --> 02:38:14,000
Speaker 3: a been a piss tape believer. This looking at these

2918
02:38:14,000 --> 02:38:17,160
Speaker 3: people's faces is the closest I've ever been to being like, no,

2919
02:38:17,320 --> 02:38:19,920
Speaker 3: maybe that shit's real, and maybe it's in there, because

2920
02:38:20,040 --> 02:38:24,959
Speaker 3: there's clearly something in there that they are just they're

2921
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:25,960
Speaker 3: just going through it.

2922
02:38:26,680 --> 02:38:27,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's is wild.

2923
02:38:28,720 --> 02:38:31,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, some of these guys seem to seem a little

2924
02:38:31,120 --> 02:38:31,760
Speaker 6: bit concerned.

2925
02:38:33,160 --> 02:38:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wonder why, surely there's no.

2926
02:38:37,520 --> 02:38:39,760
Speaker 6: I mean, imagine the workload ahead of them. They have

2927
02:38:39,800 --> 02:38:42,800
Speaker 6: to redact so much. Yeah, if you get so many

2928
02:38:42,879 --> 02:38:45,640
Speaker 6: of those markers, imagine how tired their risks are going

2929
02:38:45,720 --> 02:38:45,879
Speaker 6: to be.

2930
02:38:46,400 --> 02:38:46,640
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2931
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:48,680
Speaker 2: It's like that feeling when you come back from a

2932
02:38:48,760 --> 02:38:50,800
Speaker 2: reporting trip and you're like, shit, now I have to

2933
02:38:51,200 --> 02:38:51,879
Speaker 2: do the job.

2934
02:38:52,160 --> 02:38:55,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yes, I'm familiar with that feeling.

2935
02:38:56,360 --> 02:38:58,000
Speaker 6: Do you know what we have to do right now?

2936
02:38:58,640 --> 02:39:00,840
Speaker 6: And as pivot to ads.

2937
02:39:00,680 --> 02:39:15,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, let's go ahead and do that and we're back.

2938
02:39:16,920 --> 02:39:17,080
Speaker 5: Now.

2939
02:39:17,080 --> 02:39:20,600
Speaker 6: I would like to take some time to discuss probably

2940
02:39:20,600 --> 02:39:23,360
Speaker 6: the second most important news story of the whole week,

2941
02:39:24,080 --> 02:39:27,800
Speaker 6: can do it Sure? Which is totally not a hail

2942
02:39:27,920 --> 02:39:30,280
Speaker 6: Mary distraction to get away from the Epstein stuff. This

2943
02:39:30,320 --> 02:39:36,160
Speaker 6: is totally legitimate and totally newsworthy. On Monday, November seventeenth,

2944
02:39:36,879 --> 02:39:39,960
Speaker 6: a piece in the prestigious outlet The New York Post

2945
02:39:40,040 --> 02:39:47,280
Speaker 6: opinion section provided earth shattering relevations revelations care that's the

2946
02:39:47,320 --> 02:39:51,440
Speaker 6: word about the attempted Trump assassination, claiming to have discovered

2947
02:39:51,440 --> 02:39:57,039
Speaker 6: evidence that Thomas Crooks, the shooter, had two possible accounts

2948
02:39:57,480 --> 02:40:03,680
Speaker 6: on Devian Art, which, yeah, this really is the biggest story,

2949
02:40:04,240 --> 02:40:07,480
Speaker 6: which the Post New York Post describes as quote one

2950
02:40:07,480 --> 02:40:10,960
Speaker 6: of the biggest online hubs for furry art and the

2951
02:40:11,000 --> 02:40:14,600
Speaker 6: furry community. A furry is someone who has an interest

2952
02:40:14,680 --> 02:40:20,040
Speaker 6: in hormorphized animal characters, often as a sexual fetish unquote

2953
02:40:20,160 --> 02:40:23,640
Speaker 6: every time. Later reporting in The New York Post claimed

2954
02:40:23,680 --> 02:40:26,960
Speaker 6: that one of these accounts had only shared a single

2955
02:40:27,000 --> 02:40:31,879
Speaker 6: post quote a repost of a towering, muscular female bodybuilder

2956
02:40:31,920 --> 02:40:35,760
Speaker 6: and a slight man in his underwear unquote and quote

2957
02:40:36,000 --> 02:40:41,160
Speaker 6: multiple searches for muscular women and female bodybuilders found on

2958
02:40:41,360 --> 02:40:43,800
Speaker 6: Crook's supposed YouTube search history.

2959
02:40:43,800 --> 02:40:47,160
Speaker 2: He's a real pervert, then excellent, Yes, beautiful quote.

2960
02:40:47,360 --> 02:40:50,640
Speaker 6: Oh it's not it's oh, Robert, that's that's not even

2961
02:40:50,680 --> 02:40:54,640
Speaker 6: the worst part. The furry stuff obviously problematic considering our

2962
02:40:54,680 --> 02:40:57,000
Speaker 6: past few furry mass shooters. Is maybe a trend here,

2963
02:40:57,040 --> 02:40:59,600
Speaker 6: we should look into this. But possibly the most danning

2964
02:40:59,600 --> 02:41:03,160
Speaker 6: piece of information in the New York Post reporting is

2965
02:41:03,160 --> 02:41:07,720
Speaker 6: that Crooks quote described himself with the pronouns they them

2966
02:41:08,160 --> 02:41:10,960
Speaker 6: on the platform deb and Art, which is one of

2967
02:41:11,000 --> 02:41:13,760
Speaker 6: the biggest hubs for furry art and the furry community.

2968
02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:17,840
Speaker 6: This became the big thing among the right. Another trans shooter,

2969
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:21,400
Speaker 6: the Trump the Trump assassin was trans the whole time,

2970
02:41:21,480 --> 02:41:25,240
Speaker 6: and we didn't even know the FBI covered up the

2971
02:41:25,320 --> 02:41:29,000
Speaker 6: trans connection. Here it's all coming together more more red

2972
02:41:29,000 --> 02:41:32,280
Speaker 6: string on the board. The trans the trans shooter narrative

2973
02:41:32,760 --> 02:41:35,320
Speaker 6: is growing more and more evident by the day. Right, this,

2974
02:41:35,320 --> 02:41:38,200
Speaker 6: this is the way that this was framed across all

2975
02:41:38,240 --> 02:41:41,760
Speaker 6: of these all these commentators, who's the president right now?

2976
02:41:42,360 --> 02:41:46,640
Speaker 6: What is this supposed to work?

2977
02:41:48,440 --> 02:41:50,720
Speaker 13: At the time they investigated it, Biden would have been

2978
02:41:50,760 --> 02:41:52,760
Speaker 13: president right or they began their investigation.

2979
02:41:53,480 --> 02:41:55,360
Speaker 6: The New York Post did reach out to the current

2980
02:41:55,440 --> 02:42:00,360
Speaker 6: FBI for comment. They did not receive a response. State

2981
02:42:01,400 --> 02:42:04,360
Speaker 6: The New York Posts reporting like in these in these

2982
02:42:04,760 --> 02:42:07,280
Speaker 6: opinion pieces, and I think later an article they did

2983
02:42:08,000 --> 02:42:12,120
Speaker 6: did did later include references to quote, violently anti Semitic

2984
02:42:12,120 --> 02:42:16,720
Speaker 6: comments and racist remarks about Hispanic immigrants m that Semmens

2985
02:42:16,760 --> 02:42:21,880
Speaker 6: Crooks also made, including YouTube comments from twenty nineteen quote,

2986
02:42:21,959 --> 02:42:23,640
Speaker 6: this is going to be blatantly racist, but I hope

2987
02:42:23,680 --> 02:42:26,400
Speaker 6: Trump has these people a squad murdered.

2988
02:42:27,320 --> 02:42:27,920
Speaker 2: Oh great.

2989
02:42:28,640 --> 02:42:31,879
Speaker 6: I always believed being patriotic was lighting up a bunch

2990
02:42:31,920 --> 02:42:35,280
Speaker 6: of socialist Jews like the ones that booed Trump and

2991
02:42:35,320 --> 02:42:39,000
Speaker 6: blasting their useless brains out with an ar. I hope

2992
02:42:39,000 --> 02:42:41,840
Speaker 6: a quick, painful death to all the deplorable immigrants and

2993
02:42:41,959 --> 02:42:48,840
Speaker 6: anti Trump congresswomen unquote. Obviously, the right wing commentators are

2994
02:42:48,879 --> 02:42:51,440
Speaker 6: not talking about this sort of stuff. They're not talking

2995
02:42:52,680 --> 02:42:57,320
Speaker 6: about Crook's actual politics or political shifts during the pandemic

2996
02:42:57,320 --> 02:42:59,720
Speaker 6: where he started getting kind of more Trump critical but

2997
02:43:00,160 --> 02:43:04,000
Speaker 6: still from a conservative perspective. Instead, the story is now

2998
02:43:04,040 --> 02:43:08,040
Speaker 6: to quote libs of TikTok, Charlie Kirk, killer furry fetish,

2999
02:43:08,120 --> 02:43:12,560
Speaker 6: Trump shooter, furry fetish, Idaho firefighter killer furry fetish. What's

3000
02:43:12,600 --> 02:43:16,879
Speaker 6: going on? Right wing podcaster and disgraced BuzzFeed journalist Benny

3001
02:43:16,920 --> 02:43:19,960
Speaker 6: Johnson quote it has now been confirmed that attempted Trump

3002
02:43:19,959 --> 02:43:23,200
Speaker 6: assass and Thomas Crooks used they them pronouns, had a

3003
02:43:23,240 --> 02:43:28,840
Speaker 6: deep interest in furries and was exploring gender identity. Add

3004
02:43:28,879 --> 02:43:32,200
Speaker 6: it to the list. This list is then a list

3005
02:43:32,240 --> 02:43:37,320
Speaker 6: of both real and many not real quote unquote trans

3006
02:43:37,400 --> 02:43:40,879
Speaker 6: mass shooters. Another account in d C. Draino, who was

3007
02:43:41,080 --> 02:43:44,080
Speaker 6: part of the White House photo op team during the

3008
02:43:44,120 --> 02:43:48,080
Speaker 6: initial fake release of the fake Epstein files, not that

3009
02:43:48,120 --> 02:43:51,440
Speaker 6: the files were fake, but like this fake media presentation

3010
02:43:51,560 --> 02:43:55,360
Speaker 6: around releasing the already released and actually even more redacted

3011
02:43:55,560 --> 02:43:58,760
Speaker 6: versions of already public files. DC Drena was one of

3012
02:43:58,760 --> 02:44:00,800
Speaker 6: these guys who was like pray it around as like

3013
02:44:00,840 --> 02:44:03,959
Speaker 6: a prop holding up these binders of files. He posted.

3014
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:06,840
Speaker 6: Quote it is now confirmed the deep state tried to

3015
02:44:06,840 --> 02:44:10,040
Speaker 6: cover up that Thomas Crooks was a transgender extremist to

3016
02:44:10,160 --> 02:44:12,680
Speaker 6: use the then pronouns and then shot President Trump. We

3017
02:44:12,760 --> 02:44:16,840
Speaker 6: need a massive crackdown against violent trans extremism. This sort

3018
02:44:16,879 --> 02:44:19,039
Speaker 6: of stuff is losing steam. This sort of stuff is

3019
02:44:19,080 --> 02:44:22,519
Speaker 6: not spreading around the way that it has been previously.

3020
02:44:23,160 --> 02:44:27,440
Speaker 6: It's very clear that this is a blatant distraction away

3021
02:44:27,520 --> 02:44:30,800
Speaker 6: from unflattering stories about Trump in terms of the economy

3022
02:44:30,840 --> 02:44:35,199
Speaker 6: and specifically Epstein and all of this. Uh. You know,

3023
02:44:35,040 --> 02:44:37,520
Speaker 6: you might be wondering why maybe no other outlets of

3024
02:44:37,560 --> 02:44:40,080
Speaker 6: picking the stuff up, and that could be due to

3025
02:44:40,160 --> 02:44:43,840
Speaker 6: the dubious nature of the New York Posts sourcing on

3026
02:44:43,879 --> 02:44:49,240
Speaker 6: these claims, but also the fact that devian Art automatically

3027
02:44:49,320 --> 02:44:53,560
Speaker 6: lists a user's pronouns as they them as the default setting.

3028
02:44:54,920 --> 02:44:59,240
Speaker 6: If pronouns are not specified, this is the setting that

3029
02:44:59,400 --> 02:45:03,560
Speaker 6: everyone you have to actively try to change it. There

3030
02:45:03,640 --> 02:45:08,480
Speaker 6: is no indication Thomas Crooks specifically set pronouns to bay them.

3031
02:45:08,879 --> 02:45:12,360
Speaker 6: He is not a transgender extremist. He, like many gen

3032
02:45:12,480 --> 02:45:15,280
Speaker 6: Z people, is aware of furry art online. This is

3033
02:45:15,480 --> 02:45:19,240
Speaker 6: very common. This is a very common thing. But the

3034
02:45:19,280 --> 02:45:21,920
Speaker 6: post had a few other things they tried to try

3035
02:45:21,959 --> 02:45:24,360
Speaker 6: to wrap this story around to give it some credibility,

3036
02:45:24,360 --> 02:45:29,879
Speaker 6: including this post from the Devian Art alleged to belong

3037
02:45:30,080 --> 02:45:36,600
Speaker 6: to Thomas Crooks, which is a picture of someone shooting

3038
02:45:36,680 --> 02:45:41,280
Speaker 6: someone else in the head, which your post calls another

3039
02:45:41,400 --> 02:45:44,240
Speaker 6: artwork appear to feature a shooting against a backdrop of

3040
02:45:44,280 --> 02:45:48,119
Speaker 6: the trans flag colors. This is not the trans flag

3041
02:45:48,200 --> 02:45:51,160
Speaker 6: nor the trans flag colors. This is a blue and

3042
02:45:51,480 --> 02:45:58,480
Speaker 6: purple background. What purple is not in the transflag colors.

3043
02:45:58,480 --> 02:46:02,120
Speaker 6: You can maybe argue this is maybe, but this is

3044
02:46:02,120 --> 02:46:05,199
Speaker 6: not a trans flag. This is not an LGBTQ pride flag.

3045
02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:07,440
Speaker 6: This isn't even the bisexual flag, which does use these

3046
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:10,640
Speaker 6: same colors. This is just like a sky blue and

3047
02:46:10,680 --> 02:46:14,040
Speaker 6: a magenta purple backdrop, which they are trying to frame

3048
02:46:14,080 --> 02:46:19,440
Speaker 6: as further evidence of Thomas Krook's transgender ties. But what

3049
02:46:19,560 --> 02:46:22,400
Speaker 6: is kind of interesting is as a part of the

3050
02:46:22,520 --> 02:46:27,039
Speaker 6: social media accounts alleged to be linked to Crooks that

3051
02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:29,600
Speaker 6: have appeared in new reporting from both The New York

3052
02:46:29,640 --> 02:46:32,280
Speaker 6: Post and Tucker Carlson's own news outlet. But as a

3053
02:46:32,320 --> 02:46:36,359
Speaker 6: part of this reporting on Crook's possible online background included

3054
02:46:36,560 --> 02:46:41,240
Speaker 6: a collection of search results or like search history from

3055
02:46:41,320 --> 02:46:45,240
Speaker 6: April of twenty nineteen to May of twenty twenty, which

3056
02:46:45,560 --> 02:46:47,959
Speaker 6: lines up with stuff that me and Robert have been

3057
02:46:48,000 --> 02:46:51,320
Speaker 6: talking about for a while, in that this guy seemed

3058
02:46:51,400 --> 02:46:55,240
Speaker 6: to have the ideology or non ideology of a school shooter.

3059
02:46:55,520 --> 02:47:00,200
Speaker 6: This is the actual through line across this act of violinces.

3060
02:47:00,800 --> 02:47:04,760
Speaker 6: Researches include quote crazy chemical reactions, deadliest mass shootings in

3061
02:47:04,760 --> 02:47:09,000
Speaker 6: the world, people attacking pride parades, cars running over protesters,

3062
02:47:09,280 --> 02:47:12,080
Speaker 6: getting away with racism, best places for a mass shooting,

3063
02:47:12,320 --> 02:47:16,160
Speaker 6: Pulse night club, Pulse night club, police body camera, mass shooting,

3064
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:19,920
Speaker 6: El Paso mass shooting, Trump's civil war, Trump church shooting video,

3065
02:47:20,320 --> 02:47:25,400
Speaker 6: guns versus protesters, Orlando shooting reaction. Why I'm missing handgun?

3066
02:47:25,440 --> 02:47:28,480
Speaker 6: Firing an air fifteen as fast as possible, fertilizer bomb,

3067
02:47:28,680 --> 02:47:30,920
Speaker 6: How do you use a tourniqueit? How to make napalm,

3068
02:47:31,000 --> 02:47:34,920
Speaker 6: maltov cocktail? How to make maltov cocktail? Mixing ghasoline with styrofoam,

3069
02:47:35,120 --> 02:47:39,679
Speaker 6: mass shooting Canada, Oklahoma bombing sniper in Dallas shooting.

3070
02:47:40,920 --> 02:47:41,200
Speaker 8: Man.

3071
02:47:41,440 --> 02:47:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, who's doing real trouble hitting with his pistol.

3072
02:47:43,640 --> 02:47:48,240
Speaker 5: Huh and his rifle.

3073
02:47:48,280 --> 02:47:50,640
Speaker 2: It turns out probably choking up too much on the trigger,

3074
02:47:50,640 --> 02:47:51,120
Speaker 2: I'd guess.

3075
02:47:51,280 --> 02:47:54,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, many such cases, Yeah, yeah, but that's that's a

3076
02:47:54,720 --> 02:47:56,600
Speaker 13: pretty clear theme that you've established there.

3077
02:47:56,600 --> 02:47:57,080
Speaker 5: Garrison.

3078
02:47:57,320 --> 02:48:02,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you see this in some way

3079
02:48:02,120 --> 02:48:05,280
Speaker 6: being like a not necessarily an actual precursor, but in

3080
02:48:05,320 --> 02:48:07,680
Speaker 6: the same vein that some of these like TCC people

3081
02:48:08,000 --> 02:48:10,880
Speaker 6: later would you know, start developing these past few years.

3082
02:48:10,959 --> 02:48:16,160
Speaker 6: It's just obsession with doing violence, this subception with mass killings,

3083
02:48:16,320 --> 02:48:19,240
Speaker 6: with bombings, and some of it takes the form of

3084
02:48:19,280 --> 02:48:21,280
Speaker 6: like you know, what looks like political violence, like the

3085
02:48:21,280 --> 02:48:24,680
Speaker 6: Oklahoma City bombing, but a lot of it is is

3086
02:48:25,400 --> 02:48:30,640
Speaker 6: very nihilistic. That's all I have on the explosive reporting

3087
02:48:30,760 --> 02:48:31,959
Speaker 6: from the New York Post.

3088
02:48:33,000 --> 02:48:33,280
Speaker 2: Great.

3089
02:48:33,640 --> 02:48:33,920
Speaker 5: Great.

3090
02:48:34,680 --> 02:48:36,959
Speaker 6: I don't know how to segue from that list of

3091
02:48:37,160 --> 02:48:40,600
Speaker 6: Google searches to tariff talk. But you know what I've

3092
02:48:40,600 --> 02:48:42,560
Speaker 6: been searching for is this music.

3093
02:48:44,000 --> 02:48:48,599
Speaker 7: Loppy jazz bomb.

3094
02:48:48,640 --> 02:48:57,640
Speaker 11: Locking jazz bot Sary lacking, locking jazz bomb, locking jazz bob.

3095
02:48:59,640 --> 02:49:01,160
Speaker 6: So this this is actually a very This has been

3096
02:49:01,240 --> 02:49:03,800
Speaker 6: a very very light week on tariff news. It is

3097
02:49:03,840 --> 02:49:06,800
Speaker 6: almost entirely composed of people arguing about whether you're going

3098
02:49:06,840 --> 02:49:09,800
Speaker 6: to get the tariff check, which no, you're not. You're

3099
02:49:09,840 --> 02:49:12,440
Speaker 6: not going to get a check from the government with

3100
02:49:12,640 --> 02:49:14,240
Speaker 6: teriff money. It's just not happening.

3101
02:49:15,640 --> 02:49:17,520
Speaker 3: So I thought, I thought I'd take a second to

3102
02:49:17,640 --> 02:49:20,560
Speaker 3: pull out and look at some of the macro stuff

3103
02:49:20,560 --> 02:49:25,240
Speaker 3: that's happening in the economy and look at why it

3104
02:49:25,320 --> 02:49:29,520
Speaker 3: feels like a recession even though there isn't one. And

3105
02:49:29,560 --> 02:49:33,000
Speaker 3: the answer is that you and me, and everyone in

3106
02:49:33,000 --> 02:49:37,280
Speaker 3: this room and probably most of the people's syste keep

3107
02:49:37,360 --> 02:49:42,480
Speaker 3: listening to this podcast, are effectively in a recession. And

3108
02:49:42,560 --> 02:49:45,440
Speaker 3: the reason I can say this is that there's there's

3109
02:49:45,520 --> 02:49:49,320
Speaker 3: pretty good numbers from the Harvard economist Jason Furman, who

3110
02:49:49,600 --> 02:49:51,800
Speaker 3: points out that if you if you look at so okay,

3111
02:49:51,800 --> 02:49:55,520
Speaker 3: so recession is is three consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, right,

3112
02:49:56,200 --> 02:50:00,160
Speaker 3: and this is not like a perfect economic indicator, but

3113
02:50:00,600 --> 02:50:06,720
Speaker 3: you know, Jason Furrin points out, ninety two percent of

3114
02:50:06,800 --> 02:50:10,280
Speaker 3: GDP growth in the first half of this year is

3115
02:50:11,320 --> 02:50:15,000
Speaker 3: in a category that's called information processing equipment and software.

3116
02:50:15,840 --> 02:50:18,280
Speaker 3: And so, okay, what is that? That is all data

3117
02:50:18,280 --> 02:50:21,280
Speaker 3: center it's all data center construction. It is ninety two

3118
02:50:21,320 --> 02:50:23,400
Speaker 3: percent of all our GP growth.

3119
02:50:25,920 --> 02:50:29,279
Speaker 2: Well, the good news is that, for example, Oracle didn't

3120
02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:31,800
Speaker 2: just make a big deal with open Ai to provide

3121
02:50:31,800 --> 02:50:36,320
Speaker 2: them with computing resources, and after making this three hundred

3122
02:50:36,360 --> 02:50:39,320
Speaker 2: billion dollar deal, has dropped three hundred and fifteen billion

3123
02:50:39,360 --> 02:50:43,640
Speaker 2: dollars in valuation. That didn't happen obviously, Like these are

3124
02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:47,080
Speaker 2: things are good in an AI world. There's not a

3125
02:50:47,120 --> 02:50:49,720
Speaker 2: bunch of people pulling their money out of Nvidia as

3126
02:50:49,800 --> 02:50:50,640
Speaker 2: fast as they can.

3127
02:50:50,800 --> 02:50:52,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, we're getting to that.

3128
02:50:52,320 --> 02:50:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah one of them again, Peter Deal pulling his money

3129
02:50:55,200 --> 02:50:57,400
Speaker 3: out right now, getting all.

3130
02:50:57,280 --> 02:50:58,080
Speaker 6: Of his shit out.

3131
02:50:58,480 --> 02:51:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, get your shipped out, fucking my Michael Burry is

3132
02:51:01,480 --> 02:51:03,920
Speaker 2: now shorting the as here.

3133
02:51:04,240 --> 02:51:07,600
Speaker 3: I will say this, the Michael Berry short thing is

3134
02:51:07,680 --> 02:51:10,320
Speaker 3: literally the only thing that I've ran into that actually

3135
02:51:10,360 --> 02:51:13,560
Speaker 3: makes me be like that. Like Michael Burry versus the

3136
02:51:13,560 --> 02:51:16,640
Speaker 3: AI industry is like really truly is the great duel

3137
02:51:16,760 --> 02:51:19,600
Speaker 3: of the stoppable force and the movable object. Yeah, like

3138
02:51:19,840 --> 02:51:24,360
Speaker 3: that's we're not dealing with like world rending titans here,

3139
02:51:25,360 --> 02:51:26,800
Speaker 3: but you know, but we are.

3140
02:51:26,920 --> 02:51:28,480
Speaker 2: We are going to get a sequel to the Big

3141
02:51:28,520 --> 02:51:31,240
Speaker 2: Short that's going to really struggle to be entertaining. Because

3142
02:51:31,240 --> 02:51:33,560
Speaker 2: with the Big Short, what was fun was these guys

3143
02:51:33,600 --> 02:51:38,960
Speaker 2: realizing how fucked this like system based on like really

3144
02:51:39,000 --> 02:51:42,200
Speaker 2: bad like tranches of debt and how badly it was

3145
02:51:42,240 --> 02:51:44,760
Speaker 2: going to fuck the economy. And with AI it's just

3146
02:51:44,800 --> 02:51:47,119
Speaker 2: going to be like literally everyone in the world except

3147
02:51:47,160 --> 02:51:49,760
Speaker 2: for the people in media and politics, being like this

3148
02:51:49,800 --> 02:51:55,600
Speaker 2: seems like a fucking grift. This seems bad, and them

3149
02:51:55,600 --> 02:51:57,680
Speaker 2: all being like no, no, no, bro, trust me, no,

3150
02:51:57,680 --> 02:51:59,400
Speaker 2: no no, and then it all goes to shit.

3151
02:51:59,600 --> 02:52:01,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm gonna do a full episode about this to

3152
02:52:01,760 --> 02:52:04,680
Speaker 6: some point that there's a really good interview on a

3153
02:52:05,120 --> 02:52:08,039
Speaker 6: Bloomberg podcast called Odd Thoughts with its kind of Paul

3154
02:52:08,120 --> 02:52:11,920
Speaker 6: Katrowski who points out that well a, he has a

3155
02:52:11,920 --> 02:52:14,600
Speaker 6: great line but calling this like the super bubble basically

3156
02:52:14,640 --> 02:52:17,320
Speaker 6: where it's it's every single kind of speculative bubble rolled

3157
02:52:17,320 --> 02:52:19,640
Speaker 6: into one because all these data centers are being financed

3158
02:52:19,640 --> 02:52:22,480
Speaker 6: with like the with the equivalent of mortgage backed securities.

3159
02:52:22,520 --> 02:52:26,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, these are these are subprime loans for tech companies, right, Like,

3160
02:52:26,560 --> 02:52:28,560
Speaker 2: that's that's what's financing all of this.

3161
02:52:28,840 --> 02:52:32,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then these buildings. Right. It's also it's also

3162
02:52:32,720 --> 02:52:34,680
Speaker 6: a real estate bubble because all of these data centers

3163
02:52:34,680 --> 02:52:37,160
Speaker 6: are taking a ridiculus amount of real estate. There's a

3164
02:52:37,240 --> 02:52:39,120
Speaker 6: tech bubble, and the.

3165
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:41,240
Speaker 3: Single thing that and again we're going to do a

3166
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:43,080
Speaker 3: longer episode about this later, the single thing that's the

3167
02:52:43,120 --> 02:52:45,640
Speaker 3: most unhinged to me about this. And it's you know,

3168
02:52:45,920 --> 02:52:48,760
Speaker 3: even even excluding the fact that you know, all of

3169
02:52:48,800 --> 02:52:51,080
Speaker 3: these processors that they're using in these data centers burned

3170
02:52:51,120 --> 02:52:53,879
Speaker 3: out after about a year and a half because they're

3171
02:52:53,920 --> 02:52:56,800
Speaker 3: just running them constantly. Is that if you look at

3172
02:52:56,800 --> 02:52:59,760
Speaker 3: like the housing collapse in two thousand and eight, right,

3173
02:53:00,320 --> 02:53:02,880
Speaker 3: and you look at what was underlying all of those

3174
02:53:02,879 --> 02:53:06,800
Speaker 3: bad assets. There were houses there right at the end

3175
02:53:06,840 --> 02:53:08,320
Speaker 3: of the day, all of these banks can go in

3176
02:53:08,360 --> 02:53:11,680
Speaker 3: and they can take your house, and that's really bad obviously,

3177
02:53:12,160 --> 02:53:15,000
Speaker 3: But what is the underlying assets for all of these

3178
02:53:15,120 --> 02:53:19,120
Speaker 3: tranches of all these tranches of debt. The underlying asset

3179
02:53:19,520 --> 02:53:22,360
Speaker 3: that you're supposed to be taking, you know, that's supposed

3180
02:53:22,360 --> 02:53:24,520
Speaker 3: to be the collateral is compute power.

3181
02:53:24,760 --> 02:53:30,320
Speaker 5: Yeah no, no, it seems fun.

3182
02:53:33,040 --> 02:53:36,080
Speaker 13: Because people can live in the computer and we all

3183
02:53:36,120 --> 02:53:39,000
Speaker 13: need to live in a computer paler, so it's fine.

3184
02:53:40,879 --> 02:53:41,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3185
02:53:42,000 --> 02:53:45,760
Speaker 2: Look, the the bad news is things are going to

3186
02:53:45,800 --> 02:53:47,960
Speaker 2: be really bad for a lot of people. Oh yeah,

3187
02:53:47,959 --> 02:53:50,680
Speaker 2: and they already are probably most people that end they're

3188
02:53:50,720 --> 02:53:54,039
Speaker 2: going to get worse. The good news is once we

3189
02:53:54,120 --> 02:53:56,560
Speaker 2: get past you know, if if this is the way

3190
02:53:56,600 --> 02:53:59,280
Speaker 2: the dot com bubble went right, once we get past

3191
02:53:59,680 --> 02:54:03,119
Speaker 2: this crash that's brought on by you know, a mix

3192
02:54:03,200 --> 02:54:08,200
Speaker 2: of greed and insanity and ignorance and lies, then we

3193
02:54:08,240 --> 02:54:11,840
Speaker 2: can finally get to the Internet changing society in only

3194
02:54:11,879 --> 02:54:14,760
Speaker 2: positive ways, which is what happened after the dot com bubble.

3195
02:54:14,879 --> 02:54:18,600
Speaker 2: You know, we got Facebook, we got Google, we got Twitter,

3196
02:54:18,800 --> 02:54:21,879
Speaker 2: we got Instagram, we got all of these great apps

3197
02:54:21,879 --> 02:54:24,680
Speaker 2: that have made our lives nothing better but better, you know.

3198
02:54:26,040 --> 02:54:30,000
Speaker 2: So I'm looking forward.

3199
02:54:30,160 --> 02:54:34,960
Speaker 13: I'm gonna forget Getter wouldn't be ferries if it wasn't

3200
02:54:35,000 --> 02:54:35,600
Speaker 13: with the.

3201
02:54:36,240 --> 02:54:42,560
Speaker 2: Dvn RT exactly, How would we know who was without

3202
02:54:42,160 --> 02:54:44,959
Speaker 2: that and what their pronouns may have been.

3203
02:54:46,000 --> 02:54:48,520
Speaker 3: Well, I do want to make a serious note about

3204
02:54:48,520 --> 02:54:50,920
Speaker 3: this because I've seen a lot of people who compare

3205
02:54:51,000 --> 02:54:54,240
Speaker 3: this to the dot com bubble, and this is so

3206
02:54:54,320 --> 02:54:56,080
Speaker 3: much worse because the dot com bubble and you look

3207
02:54:56,120 --> 02:55:00,360
Speaker 3: at the telecom bubble afterwards, right, there were actual assets there, right,

3208
02:55:00,400 --> 02:55:02,080
Speaker 3: you know, like the only way people talk about this

3209
02:55:02,240 --> 02:55:02,480
Speaker 3: is like.

3210
02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:05,080
Speaker 2: There was pets dot com, but there was real stuff too.

3211
02:55:05,160 --> 02:55:09,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and you know what a telecom bubble goes under, Right,

3212
02:55:09,200 --> 02:55:11,320
Speaker 6: there's still a whole bunch of like fiber optic networks

3213
02:55:11,320 --> 02:55:13,279
Speaker 6: that they've set up that you could get you know, people,

3214
02:55:13,320 --> 02:55:15,880
Speaker 6: people with a bunch of money afterwards can come scrape

3215
02:55:15,920 --> 02:55:18,640
Speaker 6: up and there's there's a material basis something here these

3216
02:55:18,760 --> 02:55:20,640
Speaker 6: data centers, there's.

3217
02:55:20,600 --> 02:55:24,720
Speaker 2: They're not practical if the because and this is what

3218
02:55:24,800 --> 02:55:27,320
Speaker 2: the reason, because our colleague at Zetron had a big

3219
02:55:27,760 --> 02:55:30,600
Speaker 2: scoop last week that's getting a shitload of attention right

3220
02:55:30,640 --> 02:55:34,320
Speaker 2: now for good reason, which is that inference cost has

3221
02:55:34,400 --> 02:55:38,640
Speaker 2: been raising consistently for open Ai, which is increasing their

3222
02:55:39,000 --> 02:55:41,840
Speaker 2: like it's fucking their margins and it's increasing their losses,

3223
02:55:41,879 --> 02:55:44,120
Speaker 2: which is why they keep losing more money each quarter.

3224
02:55:44,560 --> 02:55:48,400
Speaker 2: And the idea behind why people thought open ai could

3225
02:55:48,440 --> 02:55:51,400
Speaker 2: be a good business is that these inference costs, which

3226
02:55:51,400 --> 02:55:55,680
Speaker 2: is basically how the cost that it takes to keep

3227
02:55:55,800 --> 02:55:59,320
Speaker 2: making the models better, right, that that was going to

3228
02:55:59,480 --> 02:56:02,039
Speaker 2: decline once they hit a certain level that like you're

3229
02:56:02,040 --> 02:56:04,600
Speaker 2: not going to need to it. It's super expensive to

3230
02:56:04,600 --> 02:56:06,320
Speaker 2: get the models to a point where they're good. But

3231
02:56:06,320 --> 02:56:08,120
Speaker 2: once they're good, then they get to be really cheap.

3232
02:56:08,320 --> 02:56:10,800
Speaker 2: And that's not really true based on the data that

3233
02:56:10,840 --> 02:56:13,680
Speaker 2: we have, and they were lying about it kind of,

3234
02:56:13,800 --> 02:56:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, they were not in a way that was

3235
02:56:15,320 --> 02:56:17,840
Speaker 2: legally actionable. They're not a publicly traded company that were

3236
02:56:17,879 --> 02:56:20,440
Speaker 2: not required to release this to the public. It does

3237
02:56:20,480 --> 02:56:23,480
Speaker 2: seem like they were honest with their investors, like Microsoft, right,

3238
02:56:23,720 --> 02:56:27,360
Speaker 2: they were lying to us, right to regular people, in

3239
02:56:27,480 --> 02:56:30,080
Speaker 2: order to pretend this was a business that had a

3240
02:56:30,120 --> 02:56:32,440
Speaker 2: lot better of a shot of being successful in the

3241
02:56:32,440 --> 02:56:35,879
Speaker 2: way it needs to be. The problem with AI as

3242
02:56:35,920 --> 02:56:39,280
Speaker 2: a money thing is not that there's no profit in this.

3243
02:56:39,400 --> 02:56:41,720
Speaker 2: It's not that there's no use for any of these tools.

3244
02:56:41,760 --> 02:56:44,480
Speaker 2: There are many uses, and there are many potential businesses.

3245
02:56:44,760 --> 02:56:48,120
Speaker 2: It's that none of them equal trillion dollars, which is

3246
02:56:48,160 --> 02:56:51,640
Speaker 2: what the minimum that they need to be profitable, right,

3247
02:56:52,640 --> 02:56:54,840
Speaker 2: And these data centers are all based on the bet

3248
02:56:54,840 --> 02:56:56,840
Speaker 2: that no, no, actually, this is a multi trillion dollar

3249
02:56:56,879 --> 02:56:59,640
Speaker 2: industry and we need this much compute, right.

3250
02:57:00,440 --> 02:57:03,400
Speaker 3: And this is this is the greatest misallocation of capital

3251
02:57:03,400 --> 02:57:05,440
Speaker 3: in human history. There has never been anything like this.

3252
02:57:05,520 --> 02:57:08,240
Speaker 3: There has never been crazy this much of the capital

3253
02:57:08,320 --> 02:57:10,160
Speaker 3: on Earth poured into.

3254
02:57:10,280 --> 02:57:13,800
Speaker 6: Nothing because there's there's not there's not even physical assets left, right.

3255
02:57:14,120 --> 02:57:16,920
Speaker 6: The physical assets are burned out graphics.

3256
02:57:16,480 --> 02:57:18,520
Speaker 2: Cards because a lot of these data centers aren't built

3257
02:57:18,520 --> 02:57:20,800
Speaker 2: and they don't last, right, that we're going to do Like, yes,

3258
02:57:20,840 --> 02:57:23,040
Speaker 2: they have a building, they have a building you can

3259
02:57:23,120 --> 02:57:26,080
Speaker 2: run power to, but the graphics cards don't last.

3260
02:57:26,400 --> 02:57:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and at the end of this,

3261
02:57:29,680 --> 02:57:32,440
Speaker 3: right it's you. You have a bunch of buildings that

3262
02:57:32,480 --> 02:57:36,080
Speaker 3: don't do anything attached to like extremely expensive diesel generators.

3263
02:57:36,360 --> 02:57:39,280
Speaker 3: And I am praying. The one thing that makes me

3264
02:57:39,320 --> 02:57:41,320
Speaker 3: be like, I hope this goes down quickly is that

3265
02:57:41,360 --> 02:57:44,000
Speaker 3: I am praying that this bubble goes down before they

3266
02:57:44,040 --> 02:57:46,560
Speaker 3: actually start trying to build nuclear like really truly get

3267
02:57:46,600 --> 02:57:48,800
Speaker 3: off the ground building a buch of nuclear reactors, because

3268
02:57:49,080 --> 02:57:52,840
Speaker 3: can you imagine these guys who created a computer that

3269
02:57:52,959 --> 02:57:56,760
Speaker 3: can't win at chess trying to build nuclear reactors.

3270
02:57:57,440 --> 02:57:58,600
Speaker 2: I think we should let them do it.

3271
02:57:58,640 --> 02:57:59,400
Speaker 6: I agree, fuck it?

3272
02:58:00,040 --> 02:58:01,240
Speaker 2: Why not? Why not?

3273
02:58:01,360 --> 02:58:02,240
Speaker 6: Long for stalker?

3274
02:58:02,640 --> 02:58:04,879
Speaker 2: No, I mean it's one of the this is like,

3275
02:58:04,959 --> 02:58:08,520
Speaker 2: the point that is meaningful here is that after the

3276
02:58:08,560 --> 02:58:11,279
Speaker 2: dot com bubble, you were able to have a massive

3277
02:58:11,280 --> 02:58:13,360
Speaker 2: boom that created a bunch of wealth. It created wealth

3278
02:58:13,400 --> 02:58:16,400
Speaker 2: doing things that were often super bad for society, But

3279
02:58:16,480 --> 02:58:20,520
Speaker 2: it created a shitload of wealth because real infrastructure had

3280
02:58:20,520 --> 02:58:23,400
Speaker 2: been put in place that actually enabled the whole country

3281
02:58:23,440 --> 02:58:26,680
Speaker 2: to get connected it enabled the birth of like the

3282
02:58:26,720 --> 02:58:29,840
Speaker 2: mobile computing revolution and whatnot, because a lot of groundwork

3283
02:58:29,879 --> 02:58:32,280
Speaker 2: had been laid that was really meaningful, even though a

3284
02:58:32,360 --> 02:58:34,360
Speaker 2: number of the businesses involved in it didn't work out.

3285
02:58:34,840 --> 02:58:37,440
Speaker 2: And that's really not what we're seeing because it's hard

3286
02:58:37,480 --> 02:58:41,800
Speaker 2: to imagine assuming there's not a multi trillion dollar need

3287
02:58:41,879 --> 02:58:45,120
Speaker 2: for AI, assuming everyone isn't going to do everything for

3288
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:47,600
Speaker 2: the rest of their lives through AI agents and do

3289
02:58:47,680 --> 02:58:50,840
Speaker 2: all of their thinking through chat GPT. Unless that's the

3290
02:58:50,920 --> 02:58:54,440
Speaker 2: reality we'rein, these are not good investments. And the only

3291
02:58:54,440 --> 02:58:56,280
Speaker 2: thing I can compare it to in terms of what

3292
02:58:56,320 --> 02:58:57,520
Speaker 2: you were saying to me about this being like the

3293
02:58:57,520 --> 02:59:00,240
Speaker 2: worst allocation of capital in history, because I've been reading

3294
02:59:00,280 --> 02:59:04,320
Speaker 2: a lot about like the nuclear arms race, and it

3295
02:59:04,400 --> 02:59:07,080
Speaker 2: was one of those things where you go from we've

3296
02:59:07,160 --> 02:59:09,560
Speaker 2: dropped tens of thousands of bombs over the course of

3297
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:13,240
Speaker 2: five years to if we were to accidentally launch these

3298
02:59:13,320 --> 02:59:15,760
Speaker 2: ten missiles, it would be more explosive power than has

3299
02:59:15,800 --> 02:59:18,280
Speaker 2: ever been detonated in the entire history of human war

3300
02:59:18,320 --> 02:59:21,000
Speaker 2: added together up to the present moment. Right, Like that

3301
02:59:21,240 --> 02:59:23,320
Speaker 2: that is the because of and part of this was

3302
02:59:23,440 --> 02:59:27,040
Speaker 2: enabled by the actual like internet boom. Right the one

3303
02:59:27,040 --> 02:59:29,560
Speaker 2: that brought about Web two point zero in the social

3304
02:59:29,560 --> 02:59:32,680
Speaker 2: media era, right, like, all of that wealth and all

3305
02:59:32,720 --> 02:59:36,600
Speaker 2: of the money that poured into these vcs who'd gotten

3306
02:59:36,600 --> 02:59:39,600
Speaker 2: on board companies like Facebook that had to be created

3307
02:59:39,680 --> 02:59:43,120
Speaker 2: to allow something this irrational, because twenty years ago, if

3308
02:59:43,160 --> 02:59:45,360
Speaker 2: the technology had been there, there wouldn't have been the

3309
02:59:45,400 --> 02:59:47,520
Speaker 2: money to enable this kind of insanity.

3310
02:59:47,600 --> 02:59:47,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3311
02:59:47,840 --> 02:59:49,760
Speaker 3: Well, and I think the last thing, I mean, I guess,

3312
02:59:49,800 --> 02:59:51,240
Speaker 3: I guess there's two more things that I want to

3313
02:59:51,240 --> 02:59:54,720
Speaker 3: say about this. One is is that you know, this

3314
02:59:54,840 --> 02:59:57,200
Speaker 3: is also part of the cyclical economic crisis that we've

3315
02:59:57,240 --> 03:00:00,200
Speaker 3: been looking as since the seventies, which is that one

3316
03:00:00,200 --> 03:00:01,960
Speaker 3: of the ways you get these bubbles is that there

3317
03:00:01,959 --> 03:00:06,400
Speaker 3: are suddenly these unbelievably massive trillion dollar pool like trillions

3318
03:00:06,440 --> 03:00:09,760
Speaker 3: of dollars of pools of capital that you're trying to

3319
03:00:09,800 --> 03:00:13,360
Speaker 3: find something to invest in, right, you have to reproduce it.

3320
03:00:13,400 --> 03:00:15,640
Speaker 3: And this is one of the things that causes, for example,

3321
03:00:15,680 --> 03:00:18,200
Speaker 3: the Third World debt crisis in the seventies, is all

3322
03:00:18,240 --> 03:00:21,120
Speaker 3: of this capital flows into all of these there will

3323
03:00:21,200 --> 03:00:23,880
Speaker 3: debt things it eventually. This is one of the things

3324
03:00:23,879 --> 03:00:27,840
Speaker 3: that powers first the Japanese giant housing bubble that they

3325
03:00:27,879 --> 03:00:30,760
Speaker 3: did that caused the Asian market collapse in early nineties

3326
03:00:31,160 --> 03:00:33,040
Speaker 3: and then cost two thousand and eight is that there's

3327
03:00:33,040 --> 03:00:34,560
Speaker 3: all of these pools of capital they have to turn

3328
03:00:34,600 --> 03:00:36,960
Speaker 3: into more capital, and they can't do it. And when

3329
03:00:36,959 --> 03:00:39,280
Speaker 3: they can't do it, you get two thousand and eight, right,

3330
03:00:40,160 --> 03:00:44,360
Speaker 3: And they've been able to sort of hang on for

3331
03:00:44,480 --> 03:00:47,959
Speaker 3: about a decade, a decade and a half ish roughly,

3332
03:00:48,560 --> 03:00:50,760
Speaker 3: because there was so much money coming in from this

3333
03:00:50,879 --> 03:00:53,200
Speaker 3: from this tech sector. But everyone outside of the tech

3334
03:00:53,240 --> 03:00:56,560
Speaker 3: sector it sucks. It's bad. So this is part of

3335
03:00:56,600 --> 03:00:59,879
Speaker 3: the reason why everything feels unhinged right now, right Like, Okay,

3336
03:01:00,040 --> 03:01:02,360
Speaker 3: there's obviously kind of a problem with trying to track

3337
03:01:02,680 --> 03:01:05,279
Speaker 3: employment data just by seeing news of firings, because companies

3338
03:01:05,320 --> 03:01:07,280
Speaker 3: just do firings because it makes their stocks go up

3339
03:01:07,600 --> 03:01:11,600
Speaker 3: because it makes investors think they're being more efficient, which

3340
03:01:11,640 --> 03:01:14,160
Speaker 3: is nonsense, but it's why it feels like this is

3341
03:01:14,200 --> 03:01:16,480
Speaker 3: why you feel broke. And everyone is like talking about

3342
03:01:16,520 --> 03:01:18,520
Speaker 3: how the economy is growing, and it's like, well, yeah,

3343
03:01:18,560 --> 03:01:23,480
Speaker 3: this really small sector of tech has accumulated an unfathomable

3344
03:01:23,520 --> 03:01:25,560
Speaker 3: amount of wealth and they are getting very, very rich

3345
03:01:25,600 --> 03:01:28,600
Speaker 3: and everyone else is fucked, you know, And when this

3346
03:01:28,720 --> 03:01:30,800
Speaker 3: bubble colass, when these people take all of the money

3347
03:01:30,800 --> 03:01:33,080
Speaker 3: they got out of Tech and have thrown it into

3348
03:01:33,720 --> 03:01:39,840
Speaker 3: the metaverse and AI. When that blows up, it is

3349
03:01:39,879 --> 03:01:43,480
Speaker 3: going to be cataclysmic, and we're getting closer to it.

3350
03:01:44,160 --> 03:01:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the only one of them that will be

3351
03:01:46,120 --> 03:01:51,240
Speaker 2: left is Gab Newell sitting on his yes, finally releasing

3352
03:01:51,320 --> 03:01:53,279
Speaker 2: Half Life three.

3353
03:01:54,480 --> 03:01:57,760
Speaker 6: He could probably appoint himself dictator for life after that light.

3354
03:01:58,160 --> 03:01:59,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'll be the only one with money left.

3355
03:02:00,120 --> 03:02:00,280
Speaker 6: Else.

3356
03:02:00,320 --> 03:02:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of the money and gave Newle's pockets. We

3357
03:02:04,520 --> 03:02:08,959
Speaker 2: only ask that esteem we've had, We've we've had it

3358
03:02:09,040 --> 03:02:10,160
Speaker 2: replaced the military.

3359
03:02:10,240 --> 03:02:14,080
Speaker 6: Now, this is a basically the plot of yu Gi.

3360
03:02:14,120 --> 03:02:17,320
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you think I'm joking, I'm actually no.

3361
03:02:17,480 --> 03:02:19,440
Speaker 2: I I never paid attention to the u G.

3362
03:02:19,720 --> 03:02:19,920
Speaker 14: Yeah.

3363
03:02:20,400 --> 03:02:22,200
Speaker 6: The plot of Yugo was the card game becomes so

3364
03:02:22,280 --> 03:02:24,800
Speaker 6: profitable that the guy who runs the card game company

3365
03:02:24,800 --> 03:02:27,280
Speaker 6: fights a battle with all the entire Builty industrial complex

3366
03:02:27,280 --> 03:02:29,120
Speaker 6: and defeats them because he's making more money than they are.

3367
03:02:29,720 --> 03:02:34,720
Speaker 2: So okay, yeah, I guess I think that's that That

3368
03:02:34,840 --> 03:02:36,240
Speaker 2: sounds better than what we're doing.

3369
03:02:36,320 --> 03:02:38,840
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, okay.

3370
03:02:39,160 --> 03:02:42,120
Speaker 13: We can't get his fine with that mentoring tulip mania. Yeah, yeah,

3371
03:02:42,200 --> 03:02:45,760
Speaker 13: share the perfect historical comparison. Right, No one, you can

3372
03:02:46,000 --> 03:02:49,720
Speaker 13: eat a tulip bowl if you have to think they're poisonous.

3373
03:02:50,360 --> 03:02:52,080
Speaker 2: I don't think you can eat a tuli bowl.

3374
03:02:52,800 --> 03:02:56,760
Speaker 6: I shouldn't say that, but they're more edible than a

3375
03:02:56,800 --> 03:03:00,000
Speaker 6: graphics card. MIA is telling every listener to go out

3376
03:03:00,280 --> 03:03:02,720
Speaker 6: and find a tula bowl, then eat it. Putting this

3377
03:03:02,800 --> 03:03:03,720
Speaker 6: on my tombstone.

3378
03:03:03,920 --> 03:03:09,680
Speaker 13: More iliph and a graphics card, do it side by side.

3379
03:03:09,800 --> 03:03:11,200
Speaker 5: Don't do this, don't do that.

3380
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:15,200
Speaker 13: If you have eulip, you can tag near on blue Sky.

3381
03:03:15,480 --> 03:03:18,920
Speaker 13: I write, okay, send her a picture of your face

3382
03:03:19,000 --> 03:03:22,200
Speaker 13: post tulip. If you've eaten one that, don't eat one

3383
03:03:22,480 --> 03:03:24,240
Speaker 13: on our account.

3384
03:03:24,440 --> 03:03:24,600
Speaker 9: Uh.

3385
03:03:25,280 --> 03:03:29,480
Speaker 5: Talking of other things not to do? Yeah, all right,

3386
03:03:29,520 --> 03:03:44,440
Speaker 5: fuck it. HiT's an ad for tulips. All right, we're back.

3387
03:03:44,680 --> 03:03:49,040
Speaker 13: And I am going to talk about a number of things.

3388
03:03:49,080 --> 03:03:51,280
Speaker 13: I guess the first thing I should talk about is

3389
03:03:51,360 --> 03:03:59,680
Speaker 13: the the sanctions and fto's designation for various leftist groups

3390
03:03:59,840 --> 03:04:04,680
Speaker 13: in Europe. There are four entities that the State Department

3391
03:04:04,720 --> 03:04:08,119
Speaker 13: has announced they've already been sanctioned, and I believe they'll

3392
03:04:08,120 --> 03:04:10,440
Speaker 13: be added to the FTO list either saiday or tomorrow

3393
03:04:10,520 --> 03:04:13,160
Speaker 13: as we're recording this, so it'll be on the Foreign

3394
03:04:13,240 --> 03:04:16,760
Speaker 13: Terrorist Organization list by the time you hear this on Friday.

3395
03:04:17,320 --> 03:04:21,439
Speaker 13: The four entities are called Anti for aust aka Hammerbund

3396
03:04:21,600 --> 03:04:26,880
Speaker 13: hammer Gang, the informal Anarchist Federation that's an Italian group.

3397
03:04:27,120 --> 03:04:31,080
Speaker 13: They use the initials f A I. Also they use

3398
03:04:31,240 --> 03:04:34,560
Speaker 13: fr I that is not the same as the FAI

3399
03:04:34,840 --> 03:04:36,840
Speaker 13: that you're familiar with from the Spanish Civil Wars.

3400
03:04:36,840 --> 03:04:37,360
Speaker 2: That's your thing.

3401
03:04:38,280 --> 03:04:42,200
Speaker 5: And then two Greek groups called Armed Proletarian Justice and

3402
03:04:42,400 --> 03:04:44,760
Speaker 5: Revolutionary Class Self Defense.

3403
03:04:46,040 --> 03:04:48,320
Speaker 2: Notes on the names, guys, I guess I shouldn't, but

3404
03:04:48,360 --> 03:04:49,400
Speaker 2: I have notes on the names.

3405
03:04:49,440 --> 03:04:52,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean yeah, but the European leftist

3406
03:04:52,440 --> 03:04:53,240
Speaker 13: groups it's going to.

3407
03:04:53,240 --> 03:04:55,880
Speaker 2: Be yeah, yeah, of course it's going to be as

3408
03:04:55,879 --> 03:04:58,120
Speaker 2: many syllables as they can possibly have.

3409
03:04:58,400 --> 03:05:03,119
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, it is a alphabet soup. So a couple

3410
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:05,959
Speaker 13: of notable things here. The US doesn't seem to have

3411
03:05:06,000 --> 03:05:09,520
Speaker 13: coordinated with the states where these entities exist. For example,

3412
03:05:09,560 --> 03:05:12,880
Speaker 13: the German government and they prosecuted people who they've accused

3413
03:05:12,920 --> 03:05:15,800
Speaker 13: of being members of Anti for oust recently, I think

3414
03:05:15,840 --> 03:05:18,200
Speaker 13: it was in September, and they claimed that the threat

3415
03:05:18,200 --> 03:05:22,480
Speaker 13: of violence for them has quote decreased significantly, which is

3416
03:05:22,480 --> 03:05:25,480
Speaker 13: contradicting the claim that these are these are violent groups.

3417
03:05:25,840 --> 03:05:29,160
Speaker 13: The State Department, when it talks about anti for Oz,

3418
03:05:29,200 --> 03:05:32,120
Speaker 13: talked about a series of attacks in February twenty twenty three.

3419
03:05:33,000 --> 03:05:36,280
Speaker 13: What's missing from the analysis of February twenty twenty three

3420
03:05:36,800 --> 03:05:39,520
Speaker 13: is what was happening in February twenty twenty three. It

3421
03:05:39,560 --> 03:05:44,000
Speaker 13: was an event in Hungary which existed to honor Nazis.

3422
03:05:44,080 --> 03:05:47,720
Speaker 13: I don't mean Nazis like people who have a right

3423
03:05:47,720 --> 03:05:51,240
Speaker 13: wing political ideology. I mean like members of the NSDAP

3424
03:05:51,400 --> 03:05:53,320
Speaker 13: in Germany who fought in World War Two at the

3425
03:05:53,360 --> 03:05:58,000
Speaker 13: time when they were doing the Holocaust. The rally included

3426
03:05:58,040 --> 03:06:02,400
Speaker 13: several groups which were already sanctioned by US allies, including

3427
03:06:02,480 --> 03:06:06,640
Speaker 13: Blood and Honor Combat eighteen. Jesus, I'm not going to

3428
03:06:06,680 --> 03:06:08,680
Speaker 13: go into an in depth history of either of those groups.

3429
03:06:09,280 --> 03:06:13,080
Speaker 13: They're neo Nazi groups, right. That eighteen is Adolf Hitler

3430
03:06:13,200 --> 03:06:17,520
Speaker 13: one eight. These are the people who are, as far

3431
03:06:17,560 --> 03:06:20,480
Speaker 13: as I'm aware, the victims of that February twenty twenty

3432
03:06:20,560 --> 03:06:26,680
Speaker 13: three violence right. Notably, though Antifa oust was sanctioned by

3433
03:06:26,920 --> 03:06:33,000
Speaker 13: Hungry earlier. This year right Hungary under Auburn fast moving

3434
03:06:33,040 --> 03:06:38,040
Speaker 13: towards an extremely right wing I didn't think what political

3435
03:06:38,040 --> 03:06:40,240
Speaker 13: scientists like to call it an illiberal democracy.

3436
03:06:40,360 --> 03:06:40,560
Speaker 5: Right.

3437
03:06:40,760 --> 03:06:42,760
Speaker 6: This sucks to hear. I mean, with this news, I

3438
03:06:42,800 --> 03:06:44,440
Speaker 6: feel like we might need to pull out of Victor

3439
03:06:44,520 --> 03:06:49,000
Speaker 6: Orburn presents Hungary for comedy the upcoming Cool Zone headlined

3440
03:06:49,080 --> 03:06:49,960
Speaker 6: comedy festival.

3441
03:06:51,560 --> 03:06:54,040
Speaker 13: Yeah, so many of our famous comedian friends have been

3442
03:06:54,040 --> 03:06:55,520
Speaker 13: planning to join us.

3443
03:06:57,320 --> 03:06:59,920
Speaker 2: We are doing that show in Riad though.

3444
03:07:00,800 --> 03:07:01,360
Speaker 6: That's the lot.

3445
03:07:01,760 --> 03:07:02,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's still what yeah?

3446
03:07:03,000 --> 03:07:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

3447
03:07:04,760 --> 03:07:09,879
Speaker 13: The other groups aren't explicitly anti fascist, right.

3448
03:07:09,800 --> 03:07:12,440
Speaker 6: Because this is getting framed support of Trumps like anti

3449
03:07:12,520 --> 03:07:16,519
Speaker 6: antifa crackdown. Yeah, I'm trying to find foreign terrorist organizations

3450
03:07:16,560 --> 03:07:19,720
Speaker 6: linked to antifa, But these other three groups are not

3451
03:07:19,920 --> 03:07:22,119
Speaker 6: explicitly like Antifa in name or scope.

3452
03:07:22,120 --> 03:07:24,360
Speaker 13: It seems no exactly, right, So most of them are

3453
03:07:24,400 --> 03:07:29,440
Speaker 13: anarchist groups. Right, and just to like delve very briefly

3454
03:07:29,480 --> 03:07:31,600
Speaker 13: in two lines into things that have literally written a

3455
03:07:31,640 --> 03:07:35,560
Speaker 13: book about anti fascism is a left unity position derived

3456
03:07:35,560 --> 03:07:38,080
Speaker 13: from the common term position that it adopted its Congress

3457
03:07:38,080 --> 03:07:42,879
Speaker 13: in nineteen thirty five. These groups do not call themselves

3458
03:07:42,920 --> 03:07:46,160
Speaker 13: anti fascist, right. There is a distinction between anarchism and

3459
03:07:46,200 --> 03:07:48,560
Speaker 13: anti fascism, which can be seen very acutely in the

3460
03:07:48,560 --> 03:07:51,480
Speaker 13: May nineteen thirty seven events of the Spanish Civil War.

3461
03:07:52,120 --> 03:07:56,400
Speaker 13: But these groups have neither claimed anti fascism, nor, as

3462
03:07:56,400 --> 03:07:59,120
Speaker 13: far as I'm aware, have any of them killed anyone.

3463
03:07:59,600 --> 03:08:03,080
Speaker 13: I believe believe that the antifa ost people being prosecuted.

3464
03:08:03,160 --> 03:08:06,160
Speaker 13: One of them is being prosecuted for attempted murder. In

3465
03:08:06,280 --> 03:08:12,680
Speaker 13: other cases they have been responsible for explosions or attempted bombings. Normally,

3466
03:08:12,720 --> 03:08:15,000
Speaker 13: to be designated in FDO, they would have to be

3467
03:08:15,080 --> 03:08:18,920
Speaker 13: a threat to either US people or the United States

3468
03:08:19,000 --> 03:08:21,560
Speaker 13: as an entity. Right there doesn't appear to be any

3469
03:08:21,600 --> 03:08:24,240
Speaker 13: evidence that these groups have any ties to anyone in

3470
03:08:24,280 --> 03:08:26,720
Speaker 13: the United States or present any immediate danger to the

3471
03:08:26,800 --> 03:08:29,959
Speaker 13: United States. I don't quite know where they got these

3472
03:08:30,000 --> 03:08:31,760
Speaker 13: particular groups from.

3473
03:08:31,840 --> 03:08:35,960
Speaker 6: It's so weird. It's a completely baffling list of groups,

3474
03:08:36,040 --> 03:08:38,280
Speaker 6: like even looking at like Greek anarchist groups.

3475
03:08:38,320 --> 03:08:41,000
Speaker 2: I mean, my guess is that someone in the Trump

3476
03:08:41,040 --> 03:08:45,280
Speaker 2: administration has a friend in or Bond's administration and ask

3477
03:08:45,360 --> 03:08:48,680
Speaker 2: them are some antifas we can go after that? You guys,

3478
03:08:49,160 --> 03:08:51,320
Speaker 2: like you know Europe, Yeah.

3479
03:08:51,240 --> 03:08:53,840
Speaker 6: The Greek anarchist groups specifically, are are some of the

3480
03:08:53,920 --> 03:08:57,240
Speaker 6: more interesting inclusions here. They're not the Greek anarchist groups

3481
03:08:57,240 --> 03:08:59,879
Speaker 6: you would expect them to be going after.

3482
03:09:00,440 --> 03:09:01,640
Speaker 7: It's very weird.

3483
03:09:02,200 --> 03:09:05,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, Like, they're not groups I was familiar with, like Miley,

3484
03:09:05,920 --> 03:09:07,640
Speaker 13: you know, I don't speak Greek, I don't I don't

3485
03:09:07,800 --> 03:09:08,240
Speaker 13: read Greek.

3486
03:09:08,280 --> 03:09:08,520
Speaker 8: I don't know.

3487
03:09:08,560 --> 03:09:10,320
Speaker 5: I don't pay that much attention to that part of

3488
03:09:10,320 --> 03:09:10,640
Speaker 5: the world.

3489
03:09:10,640 --> 03:09:15,840
Speaker 13: But like, there are other groups which are more notorious. Like,

3490
03:09:16,360 --> 03:09:19,400
Speaker 13: it's very odd that they've come up with the anti

3491
03:09:19,480 --> 03:09:21,720
Speaker 13: for OUST one. I agree, Garrison. I think the lineage

3492
03:09:21,840 --> 03:09:25,160
Speaker 13: is more obvious that the other three. Yeah, I'm not

3493
03:09:25,280 --> 03:09:27,800
Speaker 13: entirely clear on how they got to those of any

3494
03:09:28,000 --> 03:09:31,080
Speaker 13: you know, contact us if you have ideas. The other

3495
03:09:31,240 --> 03:09:34,520
Speaker 13: terrorist designation that happened this week, which is breaking as

3496
03:09:34,560 --> 03:09:39,440
Speaker 13: we record on Wednesday, the nineteenth of November, is that

3497
03:09:40,200 --> 03:09:46,119
Speaker 13: Greg Abbott has declared care this Center for American Islamic

3498
03:09:46,160 --> 03:09:54,200
Speaker 13: Relations and the Muslim Brotherhood as foreign terrorist organizations. Jesus yeah,

3499
03:09:54,280 --> 03:10:00,600
Speaker 13: Jesus Christ. Texas doesn't appear to have an FT list

3500
03:10:00,640 --> 03:10:04,240
Speaker 13: as far as I can tell. What this seems to

3501
03:10:04,320 --> 03:10:08,520
Speaker 13: be is a designation under SB seventeen, which parts passed

3502
03:10:08,520 --> 03:10:11,800
Speaker 13: earlier this year, which relates to property law. It would

3503
03:10:11,879 --> 03:10:14,880
Speaker 13: stop the Muslim Brotherhood or Care as a national five

3504
03:10:14,920 --> 03:10:18,600
Speaker 13: oh one C three renting or buying property in Texas.

3505
03:10:19,360 --> 03:10:23,120
Speaker 13: I'm not sure the Muslim Brotherhood intended to rent or

3506
03:10:23,120 --> 03:10:27,119
Speaker 13: buy property in Texas. Most of SB seventeen deals with

3507
03:10:27,120 --> 03:10:30,040
Speaker 13: with like nationals and entities linked to like China, Russia,

3508
03:10:30,040 --> 03:10:32,360
Speaker 13: and North Korea. It's trying to not have them by

3509
03:10:32,440 --> 03:10:35,680
Speaker 13: large chunks of Texas. But it also does have this

3510
03:10:35,680 --> 03:10:40,080
Speaker 13: this mechanism in it. So just Muslim Brotherhood is the

3511
03:10:40,080 --> 03:10:43,680
Speaker 13: sunniest limits organization. It has participated in violence, but not

3512
03:10:43,720 --> 03:10:46,200
Speaker 13: for some time. It has its origines in Egypt. It

3513
03:10:46,240 --> 03:10:49,680
Speaker 13: does a lot of like social programming Care most people

3514
03:10:49,680 --> 03:10:50,480
Speaker 13: will be familiar with.

3515
03:10:50,680 --> 03:10:52,640
Speaker 5: Right Care has already issued a.

3516
03:10:52,560 --> 03:10:55,280
Speaker 13: Response letter, and in their letter they said, quote, your

3517
03:10:55,320 --> 03:10:58,240
Speaker 13: proclamation has no basis in law or fact. You do

3518
03:10:58,320 --> 03:11:01,040
Speaker 13: not have the authority to you later any Americans or

3519
03:11:01,040 --> 03:11:04,120
Speaker 13: American institutions terrorist groups, nor is there any basis to

3520
03:11:04,200 --> 03:11:07,520
Speaker 13: level this smear against the organization. It's probably worth noting

3521
03:11:07,520 --> 03:11:11,800
Speaker 13: that there was a dog investigation into epic, not that epic,

3522
03:11:12,040 --> 03:11:14,560
Speaker 13: the one you're thinking of, probably, but this is the

3523
03:11:14,600 --> 03:11:18,640
Speaker 13: El Paso Islamic Center. That investigation was closed, right, but

3524
03:11:18,680 --> 03:11:21,560
Speaker 13: this is not the first time that they have attempted

3525
03:11:21,640 --> 03:11:28,000
Speaker 13: to u It's just very clearly in Islamophobia out of Texas, right, Like,

3526
03:11:28,040 --> 03:11:29,120
Speaker 13: that is what this is.

3527
03:11:29,959 --> 03:11:32,680
Speaker 6: There's also just an ancient sort of Obama era conspiracy

3528
03:11:32,680 --> 03:11:35,000
Speaker 6: where all of these people were all convinced that the

3529
03:11:35,040 --> 03:11:36,960
Speaker 6: Obama was part of the Muslim Brotherhood and that there

3530
03:11:37,000 --> 03:11:39,240
Speaker 6: was this whole network of Muslim Brotherhood operatives that were

3531
03:11:39,240 --> 03:11:43,879
Speaker 6: like running the country and really sort of if you

3532
03:11:44,040 --> 03:11:46,240
Speaker 6: squint hard enough, it was like, well, there's a bunch

3533
03:11:46,280 --> 03:11:49,320
Speaker 6: of people from the UAE who are kind of involved

3534
03:11:49,400 --> 03:11:52,640
Speaker 6: in some stuff, but this is like one of their

3535
03:11:52,680 --> 03:11:56,160
Speaker 6: they're kind of fusing this old school like old old

3536
03:11:56,160 --> 03:12:00,760
Speaker 6: schools a homophobic stuff with their like kind of very

3537
03:12:00,840 --> 03:12:04,680
Speaker 6: specific current contemporary targets by you guys sort of running

3538
03:12:04,680 --> 03:12:06,119
Speaker 6: these two together. Yeah, me, it's right.

3539
03:12:06,160 --> 03:12:09,360
Speaker 13: Like I think Ted Cruz has has tried to get

3540
03:12:09,400 --> 03:12:12,400
Speaker 13: the Muslim Brotherhood on the FTO list like several times. Yeah,

3541
03:12:12,959 --> 03:12:15,520
Speaker 13: there's this old like from like the golden age of

3542
03:12:15,600 --> 03:12:19,320
Speaker 13: right wing conspiracies, right, like the Bohemian Grove era. That's

3543
03:12:19,360 --> 03:12:21,200
Speaker 13: this idea that yeah, they're on like, it's like a

3544
03:12:21,240 --> 03:12:23,800
Speaker 13: fifty or one hundred year plan to bring the US

3545
03:12:23,920 --> 03:12:28,320
Speaker 13: under sharia lore and like, yeah, it's it's it's it's

3546
03:12:28,360 --> 03:12:32,720
Speaker 13: boomer stuff. Yes, combined with now trying to explicit eating

3547
03:12:32,800 --> 03:12:36,280
Speaker 13: them to Hamas, Right, So yeah, that that is great.

3548
03:12:36,600 --> 03:12:37,760
Speaker 6: That that's not great.

3549
03:12:37,879 --> 03:12:39,000
Speaker 5: I would not agree, James.

3550
03:12:39,000 --> 03:12:41,039
Speaker 6: I think that's not great. I'll be brave enough to

3551
03:12:41,040 --> 03:12:42,119
Speaker 6: say it.

3552
03:12:42,320 --> 03:12:45,480
Speaker 13: You know, it is a it's an assault on the

3553
03:12:46,360 --> 03:12:48,720
Speaker 13: First Amendment. Like, the the stuff.

3554
03:12:48,400 --> 03:12:51,640
Speaker 6: The inclusion of CARE is is like is absolutely outrageous.

3555
03:12:51,840 --> 03:12:54,120
Speaker 13: Care is a very respectability for like a civil rights

3556
03:12:54,800 --> 03:12:57,280
Speaker 13: like liberal civil rights.

3557
03:12:56,440 --> 03:12:58,600
Speaker 2: The least threatening organization in the world.

3558
03:12:58,800 --> 03:13:03,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, Like, and they have advocated for an end to

3559
03:13:03,040 --> 03:13:05,519
Speaker 13: the genocide of people in Palestine, which is a perfectly

3560
03:13:05,680 --> 03:13:08,760
Speaker 13: reasonable and legal thing to advocate for. They have not

3561
03:13:09,040 --> 03:13:15,000
Speaker 13: expressed support for political violence. Care is like as as

3562
03:13:15,040 --> 03:13:18,120
Speaker 13: protected by the First Amendment as things can be in

3563
03:13:18,160 --> 03:13:23,240
Speaker 13: this country. This is bonkers. So yeah, I guess CARE

3564
03:13:23,360 --> 03:13:26,680
Speaker 13: is already presumably preparing a call case.

3565
03:13:27,320 --> 03:13:31,920
Speaker 6: In other Texas news, a three panel judge in Texas

3566
03:13:32,000 --> 03:13:37,360
Speaker 6: just struck down Texas's newly drawn congressional map in federal court,

3567
03:13:37,879 --> 03:13:42,880
Speaker 6: with Trump appointed Judge Jeffrey Brown finding that quote, substantial

3568
03:13:42,959 --> 03:13:47,240
Speaker 6: evidence shows that Texas racially gerrymandered the twenty twenty five

3569
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:51,640
Speaker 6: map unquote. The judge has required Texas use its previous

3570
03:13:51,680 --> 03:13:57,080
Speaker 6: twenty twenty one map for the upcoming midterm elections. What's

3571
03:13:57,120 --> 03:14:01,720
Speaker 6: really what's really funny here is that before the elections

3572
03:14:01,760 --> 03:14:06,080
Speaker 6: in November, where the California redistricting measure was up for vote,

3573
03:14:06,400 --> 03:14:12,080
Speaker 6: Newsom specifically removed language in that measure that framed the

3574
03:14:12,240 --> 03:14:17,039
Speaker 6: California redistricting as a triggering event, as in, if the

3575
03:14:17,120 --> 03:14:20,440
Speaker 6: Texas one passes, then the California one can go into effect.

3576
03:14:20,879 --> 03:14:22,360
Speaker 6: You've specifically removed this.

3577
03:14:22,959 --> 03:14:24,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, the trigger language was from MA.

3578
03:14:25,800 --> 03:14:29,520
Speaker 6: Which means that California now doesn't wipeout five Republican seats

3579
03:14:30,320 --> 03:14:32,920
Speaker 6: and Texas probably won't be able to do anything about it.

3580
03:14:33,320 --> 03:14:37,199
Speaker 13: That's still a challenge. The California gopire also trying to challenge.

3581
03:14:37,400 --> 03:14:39,879
Speaker 6: Yes, and this Texas case is set to be heard

3582
03:14:39,920 --> 03:14:44,600
Speaker 6: before the Supreme Court. There's a few other redistricting measures,

3583
03:14:44,600 --> 03:14:48,800
Speaker 6: I think in Louisiana and in North Carolina. A few

3584
03:14:48,800 --> 03:14:51,760
Speaker 6: other states are trying to do this. But there is

3585
03:14:51,879 --> 03:14:55,080
Speaker 6: a possible future in which Texas is not allowed to

3586
03:14:55,240 --> 03:14:59,720
Speaker 6: racially jerrymander and California is able to go forward with

3587
03:14:59,760 --> 03:15:04,640
Speaker 6: their redistricting because it may not have been specifically violating

3588
03:15:04,959 --> 03:15:09,680
Speaker 6: this like a racial gerrymandering aspect that Judge Jeffrey Brown

3589
03:15:09,760 --> 03:15:12,640
Speaker 6: found was affecting the Texas maps intentionally.

3590
03:15:13,240 --> 03:15:17,320
Speaker 13: The GOP claim is that California is quote favoring Hispanic voters.

3591
03:15:17,760 --> 03:15:18,760
Speaker 6: That's going good.

3592
03:15:19,120 --> 03:15:22,400
Speaker 13: It's gonna be a harder landing to stick, right, given

3593
03:15:22,440 --> 03:15:25,520
Speaker 13: that there are Latino people in every square mile of

3594
03:15:25,600 --> 03:15:28,480
Speaker 13: California like it. Yeah, it's going to be a rougher

3595
03:15:28,560 --> 03:15:29,000
Speaker 13: one for them.

3596
03:15:29,200 --> 03:15:32,000
Speaker 6: And specifically, the stuff that Judge Brown found is like

3597
03:15:32,680 --> 03:15:35,520
Speaker 6: in the way that these districts were redrawn, it was

3598
03:15:35,600 --> 03:15:38,039
Speaker 6: to totally exclude non white voters and some of these

3599
03:15:38,040 --> 03:15:40,000
Speaker 6: districts all right.

3600
03:15:40,080 --> 03:15:42,080
Speaker 5: One for the train fans in the audience.

3601
03:15:42,400 --> 03:15:45,800
Speaker 13: A section of railway that connects Warsaw to Lublin in

3602
03:15:45,879 --> 03:15:50,080
Speaker 13: southeastern Poland, which then connects onto Ukraine was destroyed by

3603
03:15:50,160 --> 03:15:54,240
Speaker 13: an explosion earlier this week. Overhead cables further down the

3604
03:15:54,320 --> 03:15:58,600
Speaker 13: track were also damaged. This comes as drone incursions into

3605
03:15:58,600 --> 03:16:03,240
Speaker 13: European space continue. Donald Tusk, the Police Prime Minister, called

3606
03:16:03,240 --> 03:16:06,760
Speaker 13: the ax sabotage, and it seems extremely likely that he

3607
03:16:06,920 --> 03:16:07,880
Speaker 13: is correct about that.

3608
03:16:08,160 --> 03:16:08,280
Speaker 14: Right.

3609
03:16:09,080 --> 03:16:11,879
Speaker 5: I guess we haven't explicitly covered this on ed.

3610
03:16:12,120 --> 03:16:16,160
Speaker 13: Very much, but there have been dozens of documented Russian

3611
03:16:16,200 --> 03:16:21,320
Speaker 13: operations in Europe since see the expanded invasion of Ukraine

3612
03:16:21,400 --> 03:16:25,480
Speaker 13: that began in twenty twenty one. What's concerning to me

3613
03:16:26,000 --> 03:16:28,600
Speaker 13: about this is that Europe is responding to some of

3614
03:16:28,640 --> 03:16:32,240
Speaker 13: these by accusing Russia of trying to quote destabilized polities

3615
03:16:32,360 --> 03:16:37,760
Speaker 13: by sending migrants there. It's likely true that Russia is

3616
03:16:37,840 --> 03:16:42,240
Speaker 13: messing with migration flows. It is demonstrably true in some cases.

3617
03:16:42,360 --> 03:16:42,520
Speaker 6: Right.

3618
03:16:43,080 --> 03:16:47,760
Speaker 13: Responding to this by hardening borders, deploying troops to borders

3619
03:16:48,680 --> 03:16:52,640
Speaker 13: is not the solution to that problem. Europe's Iron border

3620
03:16:53,000 --> 03:16:57,120
Speaker 13: kills more people than any other border, and hardening that

3621
03:16:57,240 --> 03:16:59,000
Speaker 13: border is only going to kill more people. Like, if

3622
03:16:59,040 --> 03:17:01,920
Speaker 13: you want to be the shining city on a hill, right,

3623
03:17:01,959 --> 03:17:04,200
Speaker 13: if you want to be, I think that title is

3624
03:17:04,280 --> 03:17:06,720
Speaker 13: maybe up for grabs. If you want to be the

3625
03:17:06,840 --> 03:17:09,800
Speaker 13: place that stands out as like a safe place for democracy,

3626
03:17:10,360 --> 03:17:14,400
Speaker 13: you don't do that by killing migrants. And so Europe's

3627
03:17:14,440 --> 03:17:17,959
Speaker 13: response to this is extremely disappointing, Right, and I wanted

3628
03:17:18,040 --> 03:17:20,760
Speaker 13: to highlight that because I don't see that in the coverage. Yes,

3629
03:17:21,400 --> 03:17:26,000
Speaker 13: Russia escalating it's meddling in Europe is extremely concerning. But

3630
03:17:26,640 --> 03:17:29,960
Speaker 13: if we accept that Russia is a totalitarian state or

3631
03:17:30,080 --> 03:17:32,680
Speaker 13: going in that direction, then we should also therefore accept

3632
03:17:32,720 --> 03:17:34,400
Speaker 13: that people are going to want to leave that in

3633
03:17:34,480 --> 03:17:38,039
Speaker 13: many other states where they cannot have autonomy, where they

3634
03:17:38,080 --> 03:17:41,040
Speaker 13: cannot live healthy and full lives, and we should welcome them.

3635
03:17:41,560 --> 03:17:44,640
Speaker 13: Talking of people leaving places where they cannot have autonomy

3636
03:17:44,680 --> 03:17:46,840
Speaker 13: and have full and happy lives, let's talk about immigration

3637
03:17:46,920 --> 03:17:50,840
Speaker 13: in the United States. Very quickly, Border Patrol and Gregory

3638
03:17:50,959 --> 03:17:56,280
Speaker 13: Bovino have moved their internal enforcement I of Sauron to Charlotte,

3639
03:17:56,520 --> 03:18:00,640
Speaker 13: North Carolina. Seems in large part due to to some

3640
03:18:00,840 --> 03:18:03,240
Speaker 13: racists on x dot com demining that they do so

3641
03:18:03,680 --> 03:18:05,400
Speaker 13: I shouldn't say in large part, I guess in some

3642
03:18:05,600 --> 03:18:09,760
Speaker 13: part there has been video already showing Bovino participating in

3643
03:18:09,800 --> 03:18:12,560
Speaker 13: detentions at a home depot car park.

3644
03:18:13,160 --> 03:18:13,879
Speaker 5: I've said two.

3645
03:18:13,879 --> 03:18:15,800
Speaker 13: Words there, which of coursed one of my colleagues a

3646
03:18:15,879 --> 03:18:21,280
Speaker 13: smirky giggle at me stand by both of them. So yeah,

3647
03:18:21,320 --> 03:18:23,360
Speaker 13: it is in part right due to x dot com

3648
03:18:23,400 --> 03:18:28,160
Speaker 13: the Everything website being a haven for racism. But I

3649
03:18:28,240 --> 03:18:31,840
Speaker 13: think it's also worth noting in twenty eighteen, Democratic sheriffs

3650
03:18:31,879 --> 03:18:35,480
Speaker 13: in five North Carolina counties ran on the platform of

3651
03:18:35,720 --> 03:18:39,120
Speaker 13: not cooperating with ICE. All of these I believe were

3652
03:18:39,160 --> 03:18:43,440
Speaker 13: black sheriffs, and ICE pushed back hard right, including with

3653
03:18:43,520 --> 03:18:47,960
Speaker 13: a billboard campaign. Last year, the North Carolina Republican state

3654
03:18:48,120 --> 03:18:52,000
Speaker 13: Legislature over rode a veto to pass HB ten, which

3655
03:18:52,080 --> 03:18:56,200
Speaker 13: required agencies to cooperate with ICE and honor their detainers.

3656
03:18:56,480 --> 03:18:59,760
Speaker 13: A detainer is basically when ICE is like, hey, you've arrested.

3657
03:19:00,400 --> 03:19:02,240
Speaker 13: We want you to hold them for a bit longer

3658
03:19:02,760 --> 03:19:05,120
Speaker 13: so we can come pick them up for ICE reasons.

3659
03:19:05,840 --> 03:19:10,480
Speaker 13: Since then, Meckelberg County Sheriff McFadden has claimed that ICE

3660
03:19:10,560 --> 03:19:13,800
Speaker 13: has failed to collect people on detainers one hundred and

3661
03:19:13,920 --> 03:19:17,560
Speaker 13: sixty three times, So this will be. They normally have

3662
03:19:17,600 --> 03:19:19,640
Speaker 13: a forty eight hour detainer, right, they more than forty

3663
03:19:19,680 --> 03:19:23,120
Speaker 13: eight extra hours I should come get When they are

3664
03:19:23,560 --> 03:19:25,520
Speaker 13: held on the detainer, it is still the state that

3665
03:19:25,640 --> 03:19:27,640
Speaker 13: is responsible for them. It is a state that is

3666
03:19:28,080 --> 03:19:30,400
Speaker 13: paying for the cost of incarcerating that person. It is

3667
03:19:30,440 --> 03:19:33,560
Speaker 13: the state that is still incarcerating that person. Right. This

3668
03:19:33,720 --> 03:19:37,960
Speaker 13: has led, I guess, to Republicans claiming the McFadden is

3669
03:19:38,040 --> 03:19:41,680
Speaker 13: ignoring his obligation under HB ten. Mcfahnen says, isn't he

3670
03:19:41,840 --> 03:19:43,680
Speaker 13: is holding them for the duration of detainer, but then

3671
03:19:43,760 --> 03:19:45,400
Speaker 13: releasing them when no one comes to get them.

3672
03:19:45,560 --> 03:19:45,680
Speaker 5: Right.

3673
03:19:46,520 --> 03:19:49,080
Speaker 13: This has led to like CIS right, it's Center for

3674
03:19:49,120 --> 03:19:52,640
Speaker 13: Immigration Studies, and SBOC has designated it as a hate group.

3675
03:19:53,440 --> 03:19:58,039
Speaker 13: CIS has listed Charlotte and Mecklenburg County on its map

3676
03:19:58,080 --> 03:20:01,800
Speaker 13: of quote unquote sanctuary jurisdic There's a link to the

3677
03:20:01,840 --> 03:20:03,280
Speaker 13: map if you want to look at They actually cite

3678
03:20:03,280 --> 03:20:05,680
Speaker 13: the twenty eighteen policy and don't even mention HB ten.

3679
03:20:05,800 --> 03:20:08,480
Speaker 13: So it's unclear to me if they haven't updated this

3680
03:20:08,600 --> 03:20:10,480
Speaker 13: map or if they just believe that nothing has changed

3681
03:20:10,480 --> 03:20:13,280
Speaker 13: because they believe that HB ten is being ignored. I

3682
03:20:13,480 --> 03:20:16,080
Speaker 13: think that might be a lot of the reason why

3683
03:20:16,160 --> 03:20:18,959
Speaker 13: we're seeing this now. Then, finally, I want to talk

3684
03:20:19,040 --> 03:20:23,879
Speaker 13: about something local. Southern California, in Temecula, north of San Diego,

3685
03:20:24,360 --> 03:20:27,880
Speaker 13: seventeen year old boy was pulled over at gunpoint by

3686
03:20:27,959 --> 03:20:30,800
Speaker 13: a man who was known to locals as an ice agent.

3687
03:20:31,320 --> 03:20:33,560
Speaker 13: The man does not appear to have been in his

3688
03:20:33,720 --> 03:20:37,640
Speaker 13: professional capacity at this time. Neighbors were able to de

3689
03:20:37,800 --> 03:20:42,160
Speaker 13: escalate the situation and get Gerardo Rodriguez, the man in question,

3690
03:20:42,320 --> 03:20:44,960
Speaker 13: to stop pointing his gun at the teen. LA Tucker

3691
03:20:45,080 --> 03:20:45,840
Speaker 13: got video of this.

3692
03:20:46,720 --> 03:20:47,280
Speaker 5: It is wild.

3693
03:20:47,400 --> 03:20:49,160
Speaker 13: The guys just in the middle of the road with

3694
03:20:49,320 --> 03:20:51,959
Speaker 13: a handgun pointing out at a truck that's driving down

3695
03:20:52,000 --> 03:20:56,600
Speaker 13: the street. Rodriguez accuses the young man, he's seventeen years old,

3696
03:20:56,600 --> 03:20:58,560
Speaker 13: and we're going to say his name right as a child,

3697
03:20:59,040 --> 03:21:02,800
Speaker 13: of speeding in the neighborhood, not generally something that warrants

3698
03:21:02,920 --> 03:21:06,640
Speaker 13: drawing a firearm. Rodriguez was detained by the Riverside County

3699
03:21:06,720 --> 03:21:10,400
Speaker 13: Sheriff's Office. I believe he's bonded out now that this

3700
03:21:11,000 --> 03:21:15,720
Speaker 13: is an interesting development. Right elsewhere, like in Santa Ana,

3701
03:21:16,240 --> 03:21:19,720
Speaker 13: an agent pulled a gun on a community watch member.

3702
03:21:19,879 --> 03:21:23,080
Speaker 13: Fullerton police on the scene did not detain the person.

3703
03:21:23,680 --> 03:21:27,040
Speaker 13: They also refused to assist, right, they just kind of

3704
03:21:27,120 --> 03:21:30,280
Speaker 13: were present. But this is one of the few cases

3705
03:21:30,320 --> 03:21:33,480
Speaker 13: I'm aware of an ICE agent. There was someone else

3706
03:21:33,840 --> 03:21:37,279
Speaker 13: arrested in l A who I believe died. I believe

3707
03:21:37,360 --> 03:21:40,280
Speaker 13: that was a Border Patrol agent that first unfortunately passed

3708
03:21:40,280 --> 03:21:42,880
Speaker 13: away of an overdose. But this is one of the

3709
03:21:42,920 --> 03:21:46,959
Speaker 13: first instances I've seen of this, right, like a kind

3710
03:21:46,959 --> 03:21:50,520
Speaker 13: of a state federal a direct confrontation where this guy

3711
03:21:50,600 --> 03:21:55,080
Speaker 13: appears to have been pseudo claiming that he was acting

3712
03:21:55,200 --> 03:21:57,600
Speaker 13: under his authority as an ice agent.

3713
03:21:57,680 --> 03:21:58,800
Speaker 5: That's not entirely clear to me.

3714
03:21:59,400 --> 03:22:02,000
Speaker 13: The young man's parents that rushed a scene with the

3715
03:22:02,080 --> 03:22:04,320
Speaker 13: young man's passport, but by that point neighbors who had

3716
03:22:04,320 --> 03:22:07,200
Speaker 13: already been able to de escalate them. So yeah, I'm

3717
03:22:07,240 --> 03:22:10,160
Speaker 13: going to keep an eye on this because I think

3718
03:22:10,200 --> 03:22:13,600
Speaker 13: it's interesting. All Right, This week we have a fundraiser

3719
03:22:13,680 --> 03:22:16,600
Speaker 13: from Borderlands Relief Collective. I know they're helping a lot

3720
03:22:16,680 --> 03:22:18,720
Speaker 13: of people who need a lot of help right now,

3721
03:22:18,840 --> 03:22:21,879
Speaker 13: some folks whose roofs are really struggling to keep up

3722
03:22:21,879 --> 03:22:24,480
Speaker 13: with the recent rainstorms we've had in southern California.

3723
03:22:25,120 --> 03:22:29,320
Speaker 5: They have an Amazon wish list. The url is too

3724
03:22:29,480 --> 03:22:30,039
Speaker 5: long for.

3725
03:22:30,120 --> 03:22:32,640
Speaker 13: Me to read out to you, so we will include

3726
03:22:32,680 --> 03:22:34,160
Speaker 13: it in the show notes. If you'd like to help,

3727
03:22:34,400 --> 03:22:37,039
Speaker 13: you can look on that and buy something for someone.

3728
03:22:37,480 --> 03:22:37,800
Speaker 5: Thank you.

3729
03:22:38,640 --> 03:22:43,320
Speaker 2: All right, well, folks, this has been the news. Goodbye.

3730
03:22:44,760 --> 03:22:45,680
Speaker 6: We reported the news.

3731
03:22:46,240 --> 03:22:54,200
Speaker 2: We reported the news. Hey, We'll be back Monday with

3732
03:22:54,480 --> 03:22:57,280
Speaker 2: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

3733
03:22:57,280 --> 03:22:57,920
Speaker 2: of the Universe.

3734
03:22:58,680 --> 03:23:01,160
Speaker 15: It Could Happen Here is a product of cool Zone Media.

3735
03:23:01,360 --> 03:23:04,400
Speaker 15: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3736
03:23:04,520 --> 03:23:08,040
Speaker 15: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3737
03:23:08,160 --> 03:23:11,680
Speaker 15: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3738
03:23:11,760 --> 03:23:14,080
Speaker 15: now find sources for It could Happen Here listed directly

3739
03:23:14,120 --> 03:23:16,400
Speaker 15: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.