1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: All the media. Hello, and welcome to it could happen here, 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: because it could. My name is Andrew Sage and I'm 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: also Andrewism on YouTube and at time of recording, the 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: year is still technically new, so I wanted to start 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: it off with some refreshers on anarchism. In the first episode, 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: we'll look at the meanings of anarchism, authority, and anarchy, 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: and the next time we'll look at free association, mutuality, 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: mutual aid, and throllo solidarity. And don't worry, next month 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: I'll be getting back into the Latin American Anarchism series, 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: as I still haven't done Uruguay and Mexico yet. Oh. 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: By the way, I'm not talking to myself. I'm here 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: with the one and only be along. 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: Oh, I keep, I keep forgetting that you do an 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 2: actual throws actually saying the name. 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, not to worry. 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: I've only been doing this for several hundred episodes. Now 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 3: you'd think you'd think, but no, now you got it. 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: You got it. 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 3: Hell, I'm excited to do this. 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: Also excited for the Mexico episodes, because Mexican anarchism is 21 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: a trip Irguaan anarchism is also a whole lot of 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: people digging tunnels out of prisons. 23 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 3: But we'll get we'll get We'll get to that later. 24 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: We will, we will. So I'm supposed to start off 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: with I want to find out And I asked this 26 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: question with tongue in cheek, of course, how familiar but 27 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: you say you are with anarchism. 28 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: You know, I have a very silly like kind of 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: like how did I like actually finally become an anarchist 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: because I've been around anarchists for a long time, But 31 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: like the thing that like actually convinced me to be 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: an anarchist is I sat down and I got a 33 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: bunch of like anarchist history books while library I started 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: reading them, so like. 35 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: Marx Nott Lao and I'm sorts of people. 36 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: So specifically was a lot of like krups like how 37 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: to Shooseo and Puranicism intoward Japan, which I've talked about 38 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: on the show one hundred billion times. So I actually 39 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: I think I've read Capaletes Anarchism Latin America around that 40 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: time too. 41 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: It's a very good resource. 42 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so pretty pretty familiar with stuff. 43 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: But yeah, we'll see, we'll see. I'm excited to talk 44 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: about it. 45 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we'll see, is right, because let's say 46 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: ippened an anarchists. But I was first introduced to anarchism, 47 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: I would say somewhere around twenty seventeen twenty eighteen through 48 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: Christian anarchism. Actually that was during my deconstruction. I stumbled 49 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: upon Christian anarchism and briefly flated with it, but didn't 50 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: really get seriously into the studying of anarchists m until 51 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: like Lee twenty nineteen, Rearly twenty twenty around the time 52 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: and leads in towards twenties when I started my channel. 53 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: Let's say I've been studying anarchism for about five years. Seriously, 54 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm now getting started, you know, like 55 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: I'm now sett into that grasp what it is. And 56 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: I think is there's so many interpretations of anarchism, you know, 57 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: so many different schools of thought. I mean, that's not 58 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: to say that it can't be find or that any 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: attempts to define anarchism is like exclusionary or on anarchist. 60 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: And I see that out of that argument floating around 61 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: it like, well, no, you can't define anarchism because that's 62 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: actually authoritaria. But you know, there are such a thing 63 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: as as definitions, but there is room, of course for 64 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: a negotiation of meaning. 65 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a very it's a very well usually 66 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 2: it's a very syncratic ideology. It pulls from a lot 67 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: of different places, and it pulls mosts a different of 68 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: its own strands. 69 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But let's say if you had to 70 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: like define anarchism like right now, like, what would you 71 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: say is a not un negotiable basic fundamental definition for you? 72 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: I mean, the opposition to hierarchy on a basic level, 73 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: the opposition to the state, to capitalism, to patriarchy, to 74 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: systems of hierarchical power is I guess, like the the 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: baseline definition. And then also in terms of what it's, 76 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: you know, the replacement for that can be a lot 77 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: of things. But yeah, it's it's the building of a 78 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: society where we don't have power over one another. I 79 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: think it's like a very baseline kind of thing. 80 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's that's pretty solid for me. I 81 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: find it fairly similarly, I would say that I think 82 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: the opposition to authority is the most simplant part, you know, 83 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: I would say the definition I've been sort of workshopping 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: sculpting over time and as a right. So I really 85 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: like to play with words a bit and find the 86 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,119 Speaker 1: best ways to put things. So for me, what I've 87 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: come up with is that anarchism is the political philosophy 88 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: and practice that opposes all authority along with its justifying dogmas, 89 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: and proposes the unending pursuit of anarchy, a world without rule, 90 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: where self determination, mutuality, and free association form the basis 91 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: of our society. And so basically the rest of this 92 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: episode is going to be me breaking down how I 93 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: came to this definition, what I'm expounded upon with this definition, 94 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: So for one, just taking a look at the structure 95 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: of it, we are looking at an oppositional stance and 96 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: a propositional stance, opposing and proposing. You know, we're not 97 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: just for the negation of all things, although there are 98 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: schools of anarchisms that do lead in that direction. But also, 99 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: of course, we want to be constructive. We're not as 100 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: some people seem to presume, you know, obliterating the states 101 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: and then leaving warlords in their weak you know. 102 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, Baconin sucks in a lot of ways, but the 103 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 2: creative verge is a destructive one has the order of 104 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: events correctly, where like the point is to create something. 105 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And as you know, Bikinnan is one of 106 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: the rely a thinkers of anarchism, though I've never really 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: been partial to him, you know, yeah, to me usually 108 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: I've been more of a Krapotkin and Mali Testa a guy. 109 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: But lately, as as you know, so problematic as he 110 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: is as well, I haven't getten into a bit more. 111 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: I recently got the pictures of put On Reader that 112 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: Ian McKay put together for a k Press. 113 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: Extremely problematic guy, oh boy, Yeah, but he. 114 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: Certainly wrote a lot. And so when I think through 115 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: and seecret what jim stones of his of his work 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: I can find, you know, yeah, I think that's that's 117 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: important to sift through. 118 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: He's a He's a mixed and baffling figure who also 119 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: was a pretty large influence on Marx if you like 120 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: read him, even though Marx hates him, which is very funny. 121 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: Marx also didn't always understand step Honestly, I don't think 122 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: necessarily always had like a very consistent application of his ideas, 123 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: hence the misogyny. Despite being an anarchiss and becoming a 124 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: politician at one point in his life and all that jazz. 125 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and people may know this who listen to this show, 126 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: but the term libertarian was invented by anarchists specifically to 127 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 3: describe how they were different from ver Dawn because they 128 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: weren't sexist, Like, it's the whole. 129 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: Thing actually, wasn't away of that. 130 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: That's yeahs interesting, Yeah, that's why, and that's why in 131 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: most parts of the world libertarian is like is a 132 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: term that means anarchist. It's just it's mostly largely in 133 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: the US where that's not a thing because the right 134 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: libertarians like took it. 135 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, unfortunately, the US's cultural hegemony has sort of 136 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: propagated that American version of the term as the popular one. 137 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, whether you're talking about anarchists or libertarians 138 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: or mutualists, you're all getting it from basically that same 139 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: sort of original phool of the late nineteenth century early 140 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: frankieinth century thinker and I were sort of using their 141 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: sort of explorations to build something up a political philosophy. 142 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: But in my definition I call it a political philosophy, 143 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: but that can be a contentious way of describing it. 144 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: You know, anti politics is a tilm that's used to 145 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: describe opposition to or distrust in traditional politics. Social politics 146 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: is usually associated with the art and science of government. 147 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: So there are anarchists who would argue that anarchism is 148 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: not a political philosophy, it's actually an anti political philosophy. 149 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 3: I think these people are very okay. 150 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: This is one of the things about being an anarchist, right, 151 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 2: this is the thing thing about being a leftist, and 152 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: it's something you have to be able to set aside 153 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: when you have to do things. But a lot of 154 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: veg A leftists is being annoyed at other leftists. And 155 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: I could put together an actual, detailed theoretical critique of 156 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: anti politics, but mostly the people who talk about anti 157 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: politics just annoy me. 158 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 3: It's like an affect thing. 159 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: I feel you to me, It's like it's a I 160 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: like to pick up, look around at, you know, play 161 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: with fur little bit, put it back down kind of thing. 162 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: You know, I'd like limited to it, but I think 163 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: it's like it's good to look at more than one 164 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: ankle of definition and an understanding. Yeah, I mean, of course, 165 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I suppose a critique that could be made of define 166 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: anarchism as anti politics is a sort of a narrowing 167 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: of the definition of politics suggest that sort of art 168 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: and science of government when politics can also be defined 169 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: really broadly as just about the relationships between people and groups, 170 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: which anarchism is concerned with primarily. So, but I do 171 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: find it an interesting point to wrestle with, and so 172 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: other than it being a political philosophy or anti political philosophy, 173 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: we could also define an anarchism as a practice. This 174 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: is something that I believe Greeber did in his life. 175 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: He saw anarchism. In one interview he said, code it's 176 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: possible to act like an anarchist, to behave in ways 177 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: that will work without bureaucratic structures of coatient to enforce them, 178 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: without calling yourself an anarchist or anything. In fact, to 179 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: us act like anarchists, even communists a lot of the time. 180 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: To be an anarchist for me is to that self 181 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: consciously as a way of gradually bringing a world entirely 182 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: based on those principles into being and good. So this 183 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: is basically the idea that anarchism is not just something 184 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: you think in ahead. It's a method of change or 185 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: something that you practice. It's something that the facts anarchists 186 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: don't even want to call themselves anarchists because they see 187 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: anarchist about something that you do rather than something that 188 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: you are. 189 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a graverline. 190 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: I think Cala Gwynn kind of had a similar relationship 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: towards calling yourself an anarchist. 192 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's possible. That that sounds really, really familiar. 193 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think a line was like, she 194 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: didn't feel like she could because you had to do it. 195 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a it's a pretty common way of 196 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: thinking about anarchism that I like a lot. 197 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Another part of the definition of anarchism 198 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: that I put forward is the opposition to all authority, 199 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: and that a statement could actually get me some pushback, 200 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: getting in some trouble with some anarchists. Surprisingly, and I'm 201 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: sorry I blame Nome Chomsky, Oh my god, as a historian, 202 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: as a linguist, okay, whatever. Sure, but it was not 203 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: historically controversial among anarchists to say that you were opposed 204 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: to all hierarchy and all authority. 205 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 206 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: You know, the definitions of those terms do get confused 207 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: often because, like a lot of words in the English language, 208 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: they do have multiple meanings. You know, you don't want 209 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: to fall into the equivocation fallacy, where you use a 210 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: word or phrase in one way and then you use 211 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: it in another way in the same argument. So someone 212 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: might say, for example, anarchism opposing authority is stupid because 213 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: authority just means having a difference in expertise or a 214 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: difference in influence, or that hierarchy opposition to hierarchy is 215 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: stupid because you know food chains or you know the 216 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs. But as you know, anarchists will focused 217 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: on very specific things or we use these terms, so 218 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: arguing against it with other definitions doesn't make sense. And 219 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: by hierarchy is anarchists are French as stratification of society, 220 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: which gives some individuals, groups, or institutions authority of others. 221 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: An authority refuses to recognized right above others in a 222 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: social relationship, to give commands, enforced obedia to control, property, 223 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: to exploit, and so on. And I really don't see 224 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: the benefit in Chomsky's sort of unjust authorities or unjust 225 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: hierarchy is approach to define him anarchism. 226 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean the thing about hierarchies is that 227 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 2: every hierarchy argues it's just like you would get slave owners, 228 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: like doing these whole speeches about like the inherent morality 229 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: of slavery, like it's not actually a it's not actually 230 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: like an ethical position that leads you to like the 231 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: opposition to hierarchy, because again, every every hierarchy is self justice, 232 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: is self justifying. 233 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: Exactly, which is why I say oppositions all authorities and 234 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: they're justifying dogmas because all of them have dogmuds, including 235 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: the example that Chomsky uses, which is typically of the 236 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: parent pulling their child away from traffic. That is not 237 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: an exercise of authority. And the relationship between a parents 238 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: and a child is something that kind of should be interrogated, 239 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, that is a KaiA taking relationship primarily a 240 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: relationship of responsibility. It does not have to be a 241 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: relationship of authority, and the sense and I suppose yeah, 242 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: and the way. 243 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: That it turns into a relationship of ownership is something 244 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: that genuinely can and should be opposed. But it's also 245 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: something that like gets a lot harder to oppose when 246 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 2: you're sort of stuck up on this like, well, actually, no, 247 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 2: it's good because this is authority or whatever. So I 248 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: think the way that Chomsky obfuscates the stuff makes it 249 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 2: harder to actually do politics. 250 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: That's useful exactly because then it also makes it its 251 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: hard of people to set a question. The authority the 252 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: more comfortable with, or the hierarchy is the more comfortable with. 253 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: So you'll see that way. So gold On you can say, 254 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: although we don't actually oppose all hierarchities, you know, your 255 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: parents thing, and you really you see in ground in 256 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: a sense, because you make it harder to identify and 257 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: really question those things, because you're you're shutting down that 258 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: avenue of questioned it, you know. And so when we 259 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: speak of authority, we're really speaking about that right, the 260 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: right the authority that gives to certain people over other people, 261 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, privileges that are recognized and enforced, and a 262 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: right being a sort of a priority that is above others. 263 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: You know, the right of authority is a guarantee to 264 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: actions or resources that absolve the individual holding that right 265 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: of consequences. The right of authority compels and supporting the 266 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: desires and needs of those below that authority. So you know, 267 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: authorities have the right to command recognized and enforced by 268 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: the underlings. You know, they're the right to enforce the 269 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: obedience of the underlings are the right to control all 270 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: the properties the earth has been carved into. You know. 271 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: The right absorbs them of certain consequences and sort of 272 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: goes in one direction. It's a unilateral sort of thing. 273 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: So the authority can take your house, you know, the bank, 274 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: the government, the landlord. They can take your house, but 275 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: you can't take theirs. You know. An authority can assault you, 276 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: whether be a soldier, police officer, whatever, you cannot assault them. 277 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: An authority can take the fruits of your labor. They 278 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: could take from these wealth of what you produce, but 279 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: you can't take from them. That's theft, right. An authority 280 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: cannot be an authority by themselves. They have to have 281 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: authority over They have to have a hierarchical social relationship 282 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: that deprives some their benefit. An Anarchists oppose authority because, 283 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, among other reasons, those subjects of authority become controlled, 284 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: They become dependent, exploited, prevented from accessing their full potential 285 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: and even their bare necessities. A really that prevented from 286 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: accessing their full potential is why a lot of anarchists 287 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: have spent a lot of time targeting or approached to 288 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: pearance in an approach to entry heat. You know, just 289 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: this morning I was reading a bit of Emma Goldmun 290 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: as she was talking about Phaer's schools. The way that 291 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: she speaks also she was an excellent rights and excellent speaker, 292 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: but the way that she did so, and the way 293 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: she approached and recognize this need to tap into our potential, 294 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: particularly from young to prevent it from being limited by 295 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: the impositions of authority. It's just extremely profound. It's necessary, 296 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: acessary to start at particularly at that age, but really 297 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: at any age, to break away from that condition that 298 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: that recognizes and enforces and obeys and accepts authority and 299 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: the right of authority. You know, if everybody, if everybody, 300 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: including their underlings, decided tomorrow not to recognize and enforce 301 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: the authority of presidents, of kings, of capitalists, that freight 302 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: would be gone in an instant. Also, when he starts 303 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: with us being able to actually question, to challenge, to 304 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: resist authority, and that's something that has existed since humans 305 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: have been in humans throughout history, we see this sort 306 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: of compulsion to resist authority, and that sort of seed 307 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: of resistance is what anarchists hope to have thresh. 308 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 3: Fortunately, we have to go to ads. 309 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 2: Disaster fiasco, your principles in shambles. 310 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 3: But here here's ads. 311 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: We are back. So, like I said before, authority gets 312 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: confused with a lot of different things. Force and violence 313 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: is the main one. It's one that Marxists in particular love, 314 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: that sort of conflation of authority with any use of force. 315 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: You know, the slave resistant a slave owner is actually 316 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: an example of authority. 317 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: Incredibly silly people who are otherwise reasonably intelligent will just 318 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: say this stuff. It's like, really, what are we doing here? 319 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: Just come on? Yeah, yeah, I mean force and violence 320 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: associated with authority, and there they can be a mechanism 321 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: of defending an authority. But they're not in and of 322 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: themselves authority. They're not the source of authority. They don't 323 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: cost you authority, and you could just as easily use 324 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: them to resist authority. Yeah. 325 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 2: I want to go back to the slavery thing specifically 326 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: about authority, because the argument that it's an imposition of 327 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: authority for slaves to free themselves is an argument that 328 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: was specifically made by the Southern plantation class. Like that 329 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: was that was their argument about federal tyranny, was that 330 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: specific argument. So it's probably not a good theoretical basis 331 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 2: for understanding what authority is. If if if you're if 332 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: you're making the same argument as the Southern plantation class, 333 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: it's gonna just just cause it's gonna leave the. 334 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: One out there exactly exactly. And really we have to 335 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: understand violence. Forces are things that are used by authorities. 336 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: But if I punch somebody in the face, that doesn't 337 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: make me an authority over them. You know, if I 338 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: defend myself from me in a punch, that doesn't mean 339 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: me in authority of the person trying to punish me. 340 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: The source of authority is really about that that right, 341 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: that position, that recognized right above others, that position, that 342 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: social relationship above others. That's what grants authority. It's recognition. 343 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: The general of an army is not an authority because 344 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: he's holding a gun to the heads of all the 345 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: other soldiers and making them do things. The generals here 346 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: is to be a recognizing authority because of his position 347 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: and the privileges and rights and powers that that position 348 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: gives him. If tomorrow all the soldiers decided to till 349 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: in on their general, as has happened historically, that is 350 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: one hundred percent possible. That is an instance of four 351 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: sort of violence being used to resist authority rather than 352 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: being used to, you know, be authority. Another thing that 353 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: gets confused with authority is influence or or respect. So 354 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: influence is really something I mean, I might find somebody's 355 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: a ees or qualities or achievements admirable, right, so I 356 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: respect that about them. That does mean they have an 357 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: authority over me. I might be inspired by someone in 358 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: a way that affects my character or development, will behavior. 359 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: But again that isn't that influence doesn't automatically trust into authority. 360 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: You'll find that a lot of the anarchists think because 361 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: of the late nineteenth twentieth century, they were very influential. 362 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: They were not authorities, but they had a profound impact 363 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: on the people around them, and they were profound inspiration 364 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: to us even to today. 365 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a paper I always think about where 366 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: I found it, like a kind of liberal, well like 367 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: a maybe center lefty academic writing about Mela Tessa, who 368 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: we've we've talked about a lot on this show. There's 369 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: an Italian anarchists did a whole bunch of stuff. So 370 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: when the Italian revolutions are happening in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen, 371 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 2: like Baltesa comes back to Italy because he'd been all 372 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: over the world doing a whole bunch of other stuff, 373 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: and he gets called like like Italy's Lenin. 374 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: For those who listened to some of my Anarchists History episodes, 375 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: you know that he kind of shows up sometimes. You 376 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: know that he shows up an easier literally everywhere. He 377 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: shows up all over the place. 378 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, all for Latin America is in the US, and 379 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: you know, and so he gets called like the Leadin 380 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 2: of Italy. And this paper was about like was he 381 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 2: act Did he actually act like Lenin? And the conclusion 382 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: that they came to was like, well, no, he didn't 383 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 2: try to. He didn't come back to Italy to type, 384 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: to seize control of the country like he simply did 385 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: not because he was an anarchist, because that's what it 386 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: means to sort of, you know, have influence, but not. 387 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: Like rule exactly exactly. And that really gets into some 388 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: of the interesting conversation around anarchism and leadership and the 389 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: different ways ad can sort of interpret the concept of leadership. 390 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: But I'll see that for another discussion. There are two 391 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: other things that authority gets confused with that. I want 392 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: to address the first is coordination. And what's interesting with 393 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: coordination is that it's very much tied to authority a lot. 394 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: In the present day. You know, a lot of the 395 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: rules we have in the current system, coordination authority get 396 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: tied up together. So you have a manager of an enterprise, 397 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: and that manager coordinates all of the workers in that enterprise, 398 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: but the manager also has authority over those workers, you know, 399 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: to fire, to discipline, to go all these sorts of things. 400 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: Or a general in an army might have a coordination 401 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: role of ensurance that there's communication between various militias or 402 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, various regiments, and that the soldiers within that 403 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: regiment know exactly what their goal is, what their task is, 404 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: and how they can go about to accomplishing it. That 405 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: there's in many ways a coordinating role, but it's also 406 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: tied up with the authority of the general, as in 407 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: the right above the soldiers, you know, to command them, 408 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: to enforce, obeliens, to punish, and that sort of thing. 409 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: So we get tied up between a coordination and authority 410 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: a lot. But coordination does not have to be ties 411 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: of authority in its simplest form of coordination can just 412 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: be the communication of information between parties to ensure they 413 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: work together smoothly and effectively. That can and already does 414 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: take place between equals. So, okay, here's a good example. 415 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: You know, you're trying to move a couch into a 416 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: house or an apartment. And for those of you who 417 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: have had to squeeze a couch and through a doorway, 418 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: you kind of know what I'm talking about is already 419 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: because you have to kind of come at this at 420 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: a certain angle. You know, the the size of our 421 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: doorway and the dimensions of a coach require very particular approach. 422 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: So you might have somebody who stands to this side 423 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: and the talent person okay, all right. So it's likely 424 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: in this way because when you lift in a heavy coach, 425 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: you kind of just want to put it down. You know, 426 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,239 Speaker 1: you can't really think, okay, what anger should take it out? 427 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: So you might have somebody in a position to say, 428 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: all right, back up, okay, come forward, okay, So it's 429 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: slightly into the left, that kind of thing. That's a 430 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: coordinative rule. But that person there's an an authority over 431 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: anybody there. It's just communicating information to ensure the shared 432 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: task that the people involved have can be executed effectively. 433 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: So that's a long way of saying that we can't 434 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: have coordination and organization in our It doesn't have to 435 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: be or it doesn't have to involve authority. Finally, one 436 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: of the pet favorites of confusion is the confusion between 437 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: authority and expertise. Authority and expertise really example of the 438 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: equivocation I was talking about earlier, because authority is a 439 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: synonym for expertise by certain definitions, but the kind of 440 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: authority and I suppose has nothing to do with expertise, 441 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: which is what Baquen was talking about with his authority 442 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: the book maker argument. Now, if I could go back 443 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: in time, I would just go and tell the quien listen, 444 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: A lot of people are not going to read this 445 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: in full. I understand the full context. So maybe don't 446 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: use the word authority here. Maybe be more specific and 447 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: use the word expertise or something so people don't get confused, 448 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: because I mean reac in context, it becomes very clear. 449 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: But they are people who take the title of that article, 450 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: or they take one quote or one passage just taken 451 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: out too context from the whole, or they take like, 452 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: for example, it's a version of that article that is 453 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: cut off from the entire thing on on Marxist dot org. 454 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: I think so it's like an incomplete version of that 455 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: text available in one page, and then the full versions 456 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: of yourble in the anarchists life very incredible. See have 457 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: people who basically use that article to argue that actually, 458 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, vi Cutan wasn't against authority, but in context 459 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: it makes sense what he's talking about authority. They he's 460 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: specifically talking about expertise, and he still says that in 461 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: the end he's not going to be commanded by that 462 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: expert He's just going to take their perspective into account 463 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: because he understands the incompleteness of his own perspective. That 464 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: is a very different relationship from the sort of commander 465 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: in support nation that we see in an authoritarian relationship. 466 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: And while expertise often gets conflated with authority in positions 467 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: in the current system, that often is damaging to authority itself. 468 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: If you think about the relationship people have, for example, 469 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: with and this is a sort of a contentious one, 470 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: but even if the relationship people have with like their 471 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: own like poostyl doctor, the family doctor, wh is the 472 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: relationship that they might have with a public health professional. 473 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: When people go into the postel doctor, it's very easy 474 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: for them to sort of, you know, accept that sort 475 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: of expertise. They have a relationship with them, they understand them, 476 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: they trust them. One of the case maybe of course 477 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: their places where because healthcare is and accessible, people don't 478 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: have that relationship with the doctor. But you know, so 479 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm speaking internationally here. 480 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Also I need to put the trans note here, 481 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 2: which is that like it is very hard if you're 482 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: trands to find a doctor that you personally trust, because 483 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: oh boy. 484 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: That is true. 485 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: That that is a time, that is true. 486 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: That's that's the influence of you know, CISTA a patriarchy, 487 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: and it's its impact. 488 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it's also it's also an example of 489 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: why you can't just sort of blindly accept the authority. 490 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: You can't accept the authority of people who have expertise 491 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: because it's like sometimes they don't exactly exactly like a 492 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: lot of times, in fact, the credentials don't actually meant 493 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 2: that this person knows anything about trans health care, like 494 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 2: the ASCO exactly. 495 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: It often just me and said the police. Sun has 496 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: been given the stuff of approval by an institution that 497 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: has been granted authority. Yeah, but the institution being granted 498 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: authority does not necessarily or should not have a monopoly 499 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: on expertise and often does not in practice have the 500 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 1: full of the sun, and the people who produced by 501 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: that institution don't necessarily have that full of crafts and 502 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: everything to see that you know, they can be treated 503 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: as an unquestioned authority all expert. 504 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something that you have to have a 505 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: kind of balance between what you know, kind of like 506 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 2: neoliberal like technocracy where you get like we put the 507 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: experts in charge and the quote unquote experts running the economy, 508 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 2: like did two thousand and. 509 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: Eight all come out to that right wing think down? 510 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's and then on the other hand, the 511 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: kind of like reflexive contrianism and desire to build a 512 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: new expert that gets you like RFK Junior as the 513 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: future like secretary of Health and Human Services. So you know, 514 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: you have to sort of like Jesus, yes, you have 515 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 2: to sort of like balance between sometimes these people fuck 516 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: up and also, vaccines are good. This is not a 517 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 2: problem that requires us to like fly through the pin 518 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: of a needle. We do have to have a little 519 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 2: bit of I don't know, it's not that difficult of 520 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: a problem to deal with, but but the way that 521 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 2: the authority is construed has created a sort of backlash 522 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: to it that has been used to sort of delegitimate, genuine, 523 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: useful expertise and create sort of like false expertise. 524 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's exactly the points I was going to 525 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: make to the institution of authority and the fact that 526 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: authorities so frequently, you know, mess up and so frequently 527 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: like abuse the trust of people, increase the sense of mistrust, 528 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: a rightful and valid mistrust in authorities that it can 529 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: often be misdirected or exploited towards ends that are not 530 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: necessarily equivalent. So, because these people in public health positions 531 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: are tied up with the government, people already don't trust 532 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: any legitimate expertise that they may have gets solid essentially 533 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: by that person of authority, poisoned by their association with 534 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: a government that has clearly proven itself to not have 535 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: the best interests of people in mind. All right, So, 536 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: just to get back to the definition again, anarchism as 537 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: a political philosophy and practice that opposes all authority along 538 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: with its justifying dogmas, and proposes the unending pursuit of anarchy, 539 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: a world without rule, where self determination, free association, and 540 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: mutuality form the basis of our society. So, I mean, 541 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: I've spoken a bit about that. Those justified dogmas came 542 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: at Stromsky a little bit, and we spoke about how 543 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: that's sort of incoherent because every ideology opposes unjust hierarchies. 544 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: So I think it's important that anarchism calls out all 545 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: the justifications. I'm sure you could think of some of 546 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: the main justifications that tend to be used. One of 547 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: the oldest justifications is, of course, the divine rights of kings. 548 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that one's mostly been broken. Hopefully we don't have 549 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: to deal with that shit any war. But I you know, 550 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, I have I have eternal cynicism. 551 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe the maybe the American people you 552 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: in for the Trump dynasty, Yeah, we're going to create 553 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: their god king. Oh yeah, as imperial presidency. But yeah, 554 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean in more liberal circles, the justification for authority 555 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: is usually the social contract theory that individuals implicitly consent 556 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: to authority. But I don't know about umia. Nobody asked 557 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: for my consent, and also I don't have any way 558 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: of relinquishing my consent. Yeah, so is it really consensual? 559 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: No, Like some some fucking assholes at Philadelphia like two 560 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: hundred years ago were like, we're going to set up 561 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: a thing, and also slavery is good. 562 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: It's like, really, like, what do we doing here? 563 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: How? 564 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: What meaningful way did I agree to this? 565 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly. And it's not like I can step out 566 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, you hold the monopoly on literally 567 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: every inch of territory on earth, some stately some claim 568 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: to some part of the world. There's no escape, So 569 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: it's not a contract that you can opt out of. 570 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: You know. You know. Another justification that authorities tend to 571 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: use as an idea of meritocracy and economic darwin itsell 572 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: that the best of the best, they rise to the top, 573 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: that they are not really any systemic inequalities or structural barriers. 574 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: That this is a survival to the fittest, and the 575 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: fittest win, and the losers are losers, and they fail 576 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: because they're losers. That's a very cynical sort of take 577 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: that I don't think many people openly espouse outside of 578 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: like right wing circles, but it's definitely one of the 579 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: justifications for authority that gets used. Another one is also 580 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: in conservative circles, the idea of natural hierarchy. The idea 581 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: is that hierarchies are part of the natural ordel. You know, 582 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: people will use avolutionary biology or the just texts or 583 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: pseuo scientific claims to justify the inequality between genders or 584 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: races or classes. Colonial and imperialists Poulos, for example, would 585 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: justify their dominance by claim and cultural superiority. The these 586 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: ideas have the white man's buddhen and civilizing missions to 587 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: enforce the authority over other people's and their lands, and 588 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: that justification, while questioned and challenged to be, still is 589 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: at the basis at the root of almost every institution 590 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: in our modern rogue. 591 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something I think is going to become increasingly 592 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: visible in the US over the next few years, coming 593 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: out of a period where it was like slightly more offiscated. 594 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: But you know, all of the people who are about 595 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: to be coming into power, if you if you spend 596 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: like even the tiniest amount of time, you will see 597 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: them start talking about like fucking racial IQ shit, and 598 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: like all of this really pretty pretty explicit ideology that 599 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: they have that like of this sort of like racial 600 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: superiority that they think they have. That's like, you know, 601 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: there's like motivating ideological factor and also the thing of 602 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: the users sort of justify their power. 603 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's unfortunately become in more and more open and 604 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: common and to see that sort of discourse on mainstream 605 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: platforms like Twitter. The necessity of order an efficiency tends 606 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: to also be used as a justification for authority, you know, 607 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: the idea that authority is needed to maintain order, to 608 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: keep things in place, to make decisions. And this is 609 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: really ignoring the capacity that people have already proven historically 610 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: and presently to organize cooperatively, to organize without authority, to 611 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: take on horizontal and decentralized approaches, because it's something that 612 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: is treating complexity as synonymous with hierarchy, that you have 613 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: to organize this way, you know, it ignores all the 614 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: inefficiencies hybureaucratic systems, It ignores all the harm caused by 615 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: authoritarian systems. That just says that you know, we need 616 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: this thing, these things function, but we don't. 617 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: One of the weirder artifacts of the twenty tens was 618 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: David Raber had an argument with Pure Teel where like 619 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: they like did a debate and what a Raber's arguments 620 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: is like, well, what do you mean, like our technical 621 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: or technological systems mean that we have to organize society 622 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: in a way like it like it is is the 623 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: argument that you're making that technological possibility makes us less free. 624 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 3: It's like, no, sucks, what are you talking about? 625 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: And you know this is all people like who make 626 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: these arguments don't necessarily have an understanding of our systems. 627 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: The Internet is not organized by one central body. The 628 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: Internet is already fairly the yes centralized. It's become more 629 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: centralized upon platforms. But as an infrastructure, the Internet is 630 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: really a network of nodes that are all over the 631 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: world and all over space. Or we could take for example, 632 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: the International Postal system. All the mail that gets distributed 633 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: around the world internationally is one central global body that's 634 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: in charge of that. It's multiple organizations that coordinate their 635 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: activities to ensure that you know, you get your mail. 636 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: Or we look at even basic supply genes of goods 637 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: and resources, it's not all handled by one central industrial body. 638 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: It's not all handled by the government or by one corporation. 639 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: It's a set of relationships between groups, between companies, between 640 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: mining companies and resource exstruction companies, and shipping companies and 641 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: processing plants and factories and toys. All these networks already 642 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: not undertaken entirely by one central body. They may be 643 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: organized internally hierarchically, but that can very easily change. Finally, 644 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: final justification I want to get into is this idea 645 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: that that authority is the lesser evil. That authority might 646 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: be imperfect, but it's preferable to boost alternatives like total anarchy. 647 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: And of course some people say anarchy here that the 648 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: means in the pejorative sense, or mean like actual anarchy 649 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: in the sense of the political philosophy, means in the 650 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: sense of instead of having one central authority, they have 651 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: one to compete in authorityre in poem, it's a bunch 652 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: of warlow its fights in full power. That is not 653 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: anarchy in the sense of anarchists pursue that is, you know, 654 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: patsy authority fighting predominance, which is if you think about 655 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: really how historically states came in. 656 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: To be in Yeah, I was like, what do you 657 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: think we have now, like, what do you think that 658 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 2: like one hundred and ninety something states are doing? Like 659 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: I I don't know, and I feel like a lot 660 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 2: of these arguments are just describing the current state of 661 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: affairs and going well, it could be like that. It's like, oh, 662 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: what if how would like communes deal with war? It's 663 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: like when't the Communists are going to war with each other? 664 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 2: It's like, well, okay, like what look at the world 665 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 2: right now and ask yourself the question, how are states 666 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: dealing with the problem of war? 667 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 3: And the answer is they're dealing with a problem of 668 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 3: war by going to war with each other? Like what 669 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 3: are we doing here? 670 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: Exactly? Exactly. So the more positive side of the definition 671 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: of anarchy is one that I haven't quite gotten into yet, 672 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: and I haven't broken down the ideas of mutuality and 673 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: free association. But I'll save all that for the next episode. 674 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: If you can't wait until then, my videos on how 675 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: anarchy works and what ANARCHI needs should whet your appetite. 676 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: But until then, I've an Andrew sage. You can find 677 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: our YouTube at Andrewism and feature not seeing true this 678 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: is it could happen here the show where we chronicle 679 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 1: collapse as it happens and explore how do I build 680 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: a better future, and in my case ocasion, I take 681 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: a look at the past as well. And that's it. 682 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: All power to all the people. 683 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 3: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 684 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 685 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 686 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 2: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 687 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts, you can now find sources for 688 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 3: It could Happen Here. Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks 689 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 3: for listening.