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Speaker 1: Some of the happiest times I have ever had were

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Speaker 1: on a cruise trip with my children. We were on

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Speaker 1: a Disney cruise and it was incredible. And what was

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Speaker 1: even more incredible are the safety precautions that Disney takes

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Speaker 1: on those cruise ships to protect children. So on a

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Speaker 1: Royal Caribbean cruise, how does an eighteen month old little girl,

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Speaker 1: Chloe fall from an open window and the kids zone

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Speaker 1: no less well? At first we hear reports that her

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Speaker 1: own grandfather was dangling her out the window. All on,

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, Could that be true? I Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is crime Stories, Climb Stories with Nancy Grace. Tragedy aboard

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Speaker 1: a Royal Caribbean cruise where a toddler has died after

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Speaker 1: falling one hundred and fifty feet while allegedly being dangled

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Speaker 1: out of a window by her grandfather. According to Fox News,

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Speaker 1: the eighteen month old girl slipped out of his arms

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Speaker 1: on the eleventh floor of the ship. The ship at

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Speaker 1: the time was reportedly docked in San Juan, Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 1: After falling, the toddler was taken to the hospital and

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Speaker 1: died shortly after. A local news website on the island

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Speaker 1: said The girl was from Indiana and was on vacation

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Speaker 1: with her family. Police have opened an investigation and have

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Speaker 1: yet to question the family, according to Fox News. However,

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Speaker 1: the Department of Public Security in Puerto Rico told the

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Speaker 1: site that the homicide division is in place. Police say

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Speaker 1: the family believes it was a tragic accident. In the

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Speaker 1: last hours. The grandfather who drops his eighteen month old

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Speaker 1: granddaughter out of an open window on the eleventh floor

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Speaker 1: of a cruise ship has been charged with her death.

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this isscribe stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. You are hearing our friends at WPLG. That

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Speaker 1: was Kelly. Now take a listen to WTSPTNS Kaitlyn Lockerbee

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Speaker 1: a ten news alert now in Puerto Rico, an eighteen

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Speaker 1: month old girl from Indiana has died after falling out

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Speaker 1: of a Royal cribbing cruise ship. The little girl fell

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Speaker 1: from the eleventh floor from a port side window and

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Speaker 1: then hit the pavement. Authorities say her grandfather was holding

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Speaker 1: her up to the window when he lost his grip.

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Speaker 1: Puerto Rican police are interviewing the family members at this time.

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Speaker 1: They're also reviewing any available security camera that may show

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Speaker 1: what happened, and they're interviewing witnesses to determine the official

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Speaker 1: cause of the child's death. Authorities believe the girl and

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Speaker 1: her family are from Indiana, as they mentioned. Wow, those

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Speaker 1: are two very very different stories. Was the eighteen month

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Speaker 1: girl dangled out the window as we first heard, or

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Speaker 1: was baby Chloe a victim of falling out and open

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Speaker 1: a window. I recall distinctly after the twins were born,

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Speaker 1: putting bars on my windows up on the twenty first

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Speaker 1: floor of the apartment in New York because the children,

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Speaker 1: the twins wanted to look out the window. And there

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Speaker 1: there is about foot and a half maybe a foot

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Speaker 1: ledge on the interior of the window, and the air

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Speaker 1: conditioned heat vents are under that, and they would sit

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Speaker 1: there and look out the window. Well, the first time

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Speaker 1: I sat them there, I realized if the window was open,

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Speaker 1: anything could happen. So we immediately put bars on the

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Speaker 1: outside the windows. It looks like burglar bars, and you

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Speaker 1: wonder who would break in twenty one flights up. But

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Speaker 1: that wasn't the point. Was the little baby Chloe just

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Speaker 1: eighteen months old Chloe Wigan dangled out the window or

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Speaker 1: did she fall from an open window? Again. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This his crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: An all star panel with us. Jason Oceans, veteran criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, joining me out of New York. Chloyd Steiger

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Speaker 1: thirty six years, Seattle PD, twenty two years, homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: author of Homicide The View from Inside the Yellow Tape.

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon Forensics psychiatrists out

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Speaker 1: of the Florida Jurisdiction, Doctor Daniel Bober with me, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's Deputy Medical Examiner, and Travis County, Texas. But

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Speaker 1: right now, to Dave Matt, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: what happened, Dave, Nancy, we got two different reports on

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Speaker 1: this when it first happened, and it sounded like the

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Speaker 1: grandfather was dangling his eighteen months old grandchild out this window.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Wait a minute. The last time I

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Speaker 1: heard that phraseology was when Michael Jackson dangled blanket off

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Speaker 1: a balcony in front of the fans, and we knew

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Speaker 1: what happened because it was all on video. Jason Oshans

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Speaker 1: do you remember that he should have been charged with

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Speaker 1: child in danger? Man? Right the end, I do remember

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Speaker 1: it well. I mean the visual of that in the

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Speaker 1: one handed and you know, literally dangling down it was.

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Speaker 1: It was horrifying. Again, you come upon yourself as a

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Speaker 1: parent and thinking, are there was any actions that I

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Speaker 1: would take or risk with my children? And certainly to

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson dangling as you bring that that image back

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Speaker 1: was horribly dangerous and terrifically irresponsible. Back to you. Dave

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Speaker 1: mac investigative reporter Crime online dot Com. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: the cruise. Was it Royal Caribbean, Yes, ma'am, it was

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Speaker 1: Royal Caribbean cruise and they were actually docked in San Juan. Now,

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Speaker 1: the story of dangling the baby actually came from Royal Caribbean.

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Speaker 1: And there's a reason for that, Nancy, because this grandfather

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Speaker 1: was not dangling his eighteen month old baby out of

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Speaker 1: a window. It's a whole lot worse than that, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: They were on the eleventh floor of this incredible cruise

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Speaker 1: ship docked in San Juan. It was a kids play

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Speaker 1: area again, kids play area, a water park area, eleventh story,

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Speaker 1: eleventh stories up, and the grandfather has his eighteen month

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Speaker 1: old grandchild, and they go over to a window. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the glass, it's a glass wall overlooking so everybody can see.

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Speaker 1: They're eleven stories up in a kids area. He sets

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Speaker 1: his eighteen month old grandchild on like a banister railing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: where she can look. Now, this is something they do

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Speaker 1: at hockey games for her older brother, where they pound

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Speaker 1: on the glass watching the game, and that's what eighteen

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Speaker 1: month old Chloe wanted to do. Grandfather lifts her up.

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Speaker 1: She reaches to bang on the window and Nancy eleven

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Speaker 1: stories up in this kid's zone play area. There's no window,

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Speaker 1: it's open, and she falls eleven stories Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: That's I didn't realize that part of the scenario that

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Speaker 1: they thought the window was closed and the little girl

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Speaker 1: was gonna knock on the window and instead just went

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Speaker 1: out an open window on the eleventh floor of a

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Speaker 1: cruise ship in a kid zone area. Wow, I did

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Speaker 1: not see that coming. That's a lot different story than

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Speaker 1: what we've been told. Take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at wp LG. This is Trent Kelly, that attorney today

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Speaker 1: strongly disputing some of the initial reports that were put

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Speaker 1: out by Puerto Rican authorities. We have some landscape here

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Speaker 1: going on right behind US Puerto Rican officials though initially

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Speaker 1: said that the one year old died after she slipped

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Speaker 1: from her grandfather's arms, but today her family's attorney says

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Speaker 1: that's not the case at all. In fact, that family

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Speaker 1: didn't even know that the window was open at the time.

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Speaker 1: Let's go and show you some brand new photos if

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Speaker 1: we can, of that one year old girl. This is

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Speaker 1: Chloe Wagened. Her family is from South Bend, Indiana. Her father,

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Speaker 1: in fact, is a police officer up there. In some

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Speaker 1: of these photos, you can see that little girl with

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Speaker 1: her grandfather. I believe we have another photo now showing

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Speaker 1: the actual area on the ship where this all happened.

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Speaker 1: That is on deck eleven of the Freedom of the Seas.

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Speaker 1: That's a cruise ship that currently sails out of San Juan,

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Speaker 1: Puerto Rico. The mom, kimberly, reveals that when she was

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Speaker 1: first told quote something had happened to Chloe, mommy was

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Speaker 1: unaware that Chloe had gone through an open window, and

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Speaker 1: she ran up to the kids zone demanding to know

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Speaker 1: where was her baby. She says she looked outside and

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Speaker 1: saw the cement the baby fell down to She had

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Speaker 1: no idea the baby had gone out a window. She

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Speaker 1: says she just saw Sam standing next to the wall

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Speaker 1: of windows, screaming and banging on it, and there was

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Speaker 1: someone trying to stop me as she was screaming, take

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Speaker 1: me to my baby? Where is my baby? Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, the girl's grandfather, saying he picked the

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Speaker 1: toddler up so she could look outside and bang on

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Speaker 1: the windows. He says he set her on a railing

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Speaker 1: against what he thought was a closed window in the

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Speaker 1: ship's play area. When they told me, Chloe, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that she went out a window. I just saw

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Speaker 1: him standing next to the wall of windows. Five kids

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Speaker 1: flashpat scream, and there was like somebody from Royal Caribbean

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Speaker 1: kept trying to stop me, and I just kept saying,

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Speaker 1: taking you to my baby? Where is my baby? Has

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Speaker 1: he been able to explain to you how this happened?

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Speaker 1: He was extremely hysterical. The thing that he has repeatedly

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Speaker 1: told us is I believe that there was glass. He

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Speaker 1: will cry over and over. Royal Caribbean issued a statement

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Speaker 1: following the charges, saying, in part, this was a tragic incident,

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Speaker 1: previously saying they were assisting police with the investigation. The

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Speaker 1: family telling Savannah they believe Royal Caribbean could have prevented

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Speaker 1: the accident by taking additional safety precautions, the family spokesman

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Speaker 1: adding an a statement overnight, Royal Caribbean still is given

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Speaker 1: us the opportunity to view surveillance video they have of

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Speaker 1: the incident, adding they plan to file a lawsuit very shortly.

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Speaker 1: The attorney representing Sam Manello, the grandfather, tells us this

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Speaker 1: morning that his client has now been released and is

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Speaker 1: free and is heading home. The family still believes. The

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Speaker 1: attorney says that that security video will be the best

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Speaker 1: evidence to show that this was a tragedy and an accident,

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Speaker 1: but not a crime. Wow, you are hearing our friend NBC.

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Speaker 1: That was Carrie Sanders, as well as Kimberley, the mom

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Speaker 1: of baby Chloe, now dead after a dream of a

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Speaker 1: lifetime cruise on Royal Caribbean goes horribly, horribly wrong. I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at the window, the open windows shown in an

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Speaker 1: exterior image taken after the incident. The family says the

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Speaker 1: granddad sim who did not realize the window it was

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Speaker 1: open when he propped her up, And I'm thinking back,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking back Loyd'steiger with me twenty two years homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: When we have taken children on Disney cruises in the

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Speaker 1: kids zone, which I'm always a nervous wreck leaving them

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Speaker 1: in the kids zone, usually end up sitting outside to

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Speaker 1: make sure some freak doesn't go in and out undetected.

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Speaker 1: They have all sorts of security precautions in place. You

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Speaker 1: can't even I couldn't go in to get my own

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Speaker 1: children out unless I hit a and automated electronically red

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Speaker 1: wristband decoder which pops up as to who I am,

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Speaker 1: and what my children are in there, and how long

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Speaker 1: they've been in there, and what cabin I'm in at

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Speaker 1: all our relevant information. But I don't recall windows being

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Speaker 1: in the kids area. They have a little cooking area

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Speaker 1: and there are windows was there as I recall, But

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Speaker 1: they're windows that don't open like porthole windows. I mean

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Speaker 1: they're big. They're big windows like maybe two to four

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Speaker 1: feet across, no, make that about four feet across their

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Speaker 1: circular but you can't open them, so the children can't

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Speaker 1: possibly get out the window way in. I don't I

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Speaker 1: have no idea why you would have a window that

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Speaker 1: large that could open on that level of a ship,

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Speaker 1: whether it's in a child's area or not, especially of

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Speaker 1: a child's area. But first of all, let me tell

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Speaker 1: you what a tragedy this whole case is. When I

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Speaker 1: first heard those news reports that he dangled his granddaughter,

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Speaker 1: I was outrageous, thought they need to charge him. And now,

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Speaker 1: of course everything's been walked back, and you wonder what's

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Speaker 1: on those surveillance videos that would cause them to charge

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Speaker 1: this grandfather? Was this terrible thing? Of course he'll suffer

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Speaker 1: the rest of his life as well the mother and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the family. Already, it's just that tragedy

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Speaker 1: all the way around. And what the heck because that

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Speaker 1: one are doing in a play area or on the

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Speaker 1: eleven foot a little pit that much at all. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we just brought up a good point, Clod Steiger. I recall,

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Speaker 1: and we've taken the children on three Disney cruises that

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Speaker 1: everywhere you go there's surveillance video. I remember walking round

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Speaker 1: and around and around the deck, you know, for exercise,

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Speaker 1: and the twins would be running along beside me. Everywhere

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Speaker 1: I looked up there was a surreillance video camera everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And the same is true here with Me forensics expert,

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Speaker 1: Professor of Forensics Jackson State University and author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon Joseph Scott Morgan surveillance video

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Speaker 1: is playing a key role in this, and cops say

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Speaker 1: they did not charge the suspect, the Grandpa Sam Annello,

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Speaker 1: until after they reviewed the videotape. Joe Scott. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's an interest development, Nancy. And you know, going back

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Speaker 1: to what Cloyd had said very quickly, you know, Cloyd

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Speaker 1: out of the Seattle area. If I'm not mistaken, I

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Speaker 1: started my career in New Orleans. I'm assuming that we

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Speaker 1: kind of run parallel relative to our experiences having to

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Speaker 1: work cases that originate off of ships. It was one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest headaches for me working for the Coroner's office,

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Speaker 1: having to deal with cruise ships and having to deal

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Speaker 1: with tanker ships, because it's like you're in a world.

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Speaker 1: It's in a world that you don't have control over

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Speaker 1: so much like you do on the land, Okay, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's completely separate, and this environment is really hard.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult for an investigator to work in to

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Speaker 1: glean the appropriate amount of information and to really put

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Speaker 1: the pieces together. First Off, you don't know if the

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Speaker 1: people that you're dealing with English is their first language. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: procedurally they do things completely different. They're not held to

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Speaker 1: the same restrict and say that we are from an

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Speaker 1: investigative standpoint off outside of that ship. So it raises

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Speaker 1: a lot of questions for me as to what information

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Speaker 1: they were initially given and now what has come about

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Speaker 1: as a result of this. We are talking about an

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Speaker 1: eighteen month old baby girl, Chloe, who falls from the

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Speaker 1: eleventh story on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at the window right now, and the windows are tall.

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Speaker 1: It looks like the whole wall is made up of

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Speaker 1: windowed panes. The windows look to be about three feet

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Speaker 1: wide by about two and a half feet tall, and

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Speaker 1: there is a little ledge. I mean, this window looks

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Speaker 1: like it's about four or five feet up off the ground,

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Speaker 1: but there's a ledge there that a child could sit

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Speaker 1: on to look out. The window on the far left

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Speaker 1: is the one where Chloe fell through by being held

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Speaker 1: by a grand father. It appears to have handles that

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Speaker 1: allow them to slide open. I'm looking at them right now,

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Speaker 1: including the wooden railing. Chloe was propped up on by

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Speaker 1: her granddad. The windows slide open from the right to

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Speaker 1: the left, and there's there's a handle to open and

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Speaker 1: close the window. Why in the world would you have

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Speaker 1: a window of that size, the perfect size for a

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Speaker 1: kid to crawl or jump out of in the kids area.

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Speaker 1: To Jason Oceans veteran trial lawyer, what about it, Jason Fancy,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned that's right

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Speaker 1: in the earlier vision of Michael Jackson dangling blanket out

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Speaker 1: the window and then looking back and peeling it back.

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Speaker 1: And why is there a window? Why is there alleged

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Speaker 1: by a window? Why is it designed that way to

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Speaker 1: look out? Uh, seems to be the whole purpose. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, economics takes of value in this an

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Speaker 1: in an overcharge, the ship and the line and their

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Speaker 1: relationship with the island the critical for the economy if

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Speaker 1: the shipline takes the hit because they were criminally negliged.

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Speaker 1: Oh golly, you know you're reminded me of, Jason. Go ahead,

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Speaker 1: you're reminded me of the Natalie Holloway case, where in

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Speaker 1: that case, the island did everything they could to hinder

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Speaker 1: the investigation and describe the disappearance of Natalie Holloway and

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Speaker 1: in this case, as a matter of fact, the attorney

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Speaker 1: for the family is saying that they've been trying to

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Speaker 1: get that closed circuit TV the surveillance footage, and Royal

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Speaker 1: Caribbean has not given them the footage. Reports say that

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Speaker 1: the lawyers for Grandpa in San Juan might get the

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Speaker 1: food sometimes soon, but it seems like there's some attempt

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Speaker 1: right now to play everything close to the vest. This

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Speaker 1: is a murder investigation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Eighteen

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Speaker 1: month old Chloe Weekend was just learning how to talk.

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Speaker 1: Her family says she loved banging on the glass at

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Speaker 1: her brother's hockey games. It's why her grandfather, fifty one

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Speaker 1: year old Salvatore Nello, lifted her up to what he

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Speaker 1: thought was a wall of enclosed windows on their Royal

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Speaker 1: Caribbean cruise ship during a family vacation this past July,

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Speaker 1: but one of the eleventh floor windows and a children's

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Speaker 1: play area was open. Chloe fell out of her grandfather's arms.

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Speaker 1: Attorney Michael Cornakia says he's never seen a case like this.

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Speaker 1: Did they have to prosecute this case? No, they didn't

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Speaker 1: have to, but it's discretionary. Usually when there's a dead person,

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Speaker 1: in this case an infant, there's there's an inquiry that

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Speaker 1: they want to make and they've decided that they want

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Speaker 1: to find the facts and they're accusing him of the

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Speaker 1: lowest level of homicide. Prosecutors in Puerto Rico charged Annello

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Speaker 1: with negligent homicide Monday, but the Weekend family believes the

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Speaker 1: Cruise Line is responsible, not Chloe's grandfather, Michael Winckelman is

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Speaker 1: their attorney. The family's devastated by it. They find it

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Speaker 1: unnecessary and unfair and it's really pouring salt on the

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Speaker 1: open wounds of this greeting family. The family is planning

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Speaker 1: to sue Royal Caribbean. The Cruise Line told us they

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Speaker 1: cannot comment because of the pending lawsuit. Anello was expected

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Speaker 1: back in court in San Juan, Puerto Rico next month.

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Speaker 1: Nor He faces three years in prison if convicted. Wow Today,

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Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter day, what can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about the charges against the grandfather sam

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Speaker 1: and Ella. Well, it is the lowest level that they

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Speaker 1: can charge him, and actually in San Juan, Puerto Rico

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Speaker 1: is considered a misdemeanor. But there's something important about this

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Speaker 1: that you've mentioned several times, Nancy, about a window that

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Speaker 1: can be opened on the eleventh floor in a kids area.

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Speaker 1: According to Royal Caribbean, their explanation is they needed it

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Speaker 1: for ventilation. That this ship, Freedom of the Seas was

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Speaker 1: actually finished in construction in two thousand and six, and

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Speaker 1: the laws have changed since then. Okay, the newer ships

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Speaker 1: do not have windows that open in these levels, but

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Speaker 1: back then it did. And even though this was refurbished

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Speaker 1: three years ago, they did not change the window locking assignments.

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Speaker 1: You know in New York you have to have now,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you had to have it when we

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Speaker 1: install them, but you have to have security rails outside

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Speaker 1: your windows at a certain level, once you're above a

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Speaker 1: certain floor. And this is exactly why. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: back to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, I'm thinking back

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Speaker 1: on the Disney Cruise ship, and I'm looking at these windows.

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Speaker 1: The dining area on the Disney ship look like this

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Speaker 1: their Florida ceiling windows, but they didn't open. And to me,

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Speaker 1: it's almost an admission of guilt for the windows to

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Speaker 1: open in two thousand and six. Now they don't anymore

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Speaker 1: because it's a clear danger. But when they refurbished it,

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Speaker 1: they did not correct them. I totally agree with you, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is beyond stupidity. Why would you have

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Speaker 1: windows that open at that height in a children's area.

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Speaker 1: It just it's inviting a disaster. I mean, I could

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Speaker 1: see having windows that don't open, but windows that open,

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Speaker 1: I think it makes absolutely no sense. Oh, I definitely

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Speaker 1: think that if that turns out to be true, there's

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Speaker 1: definitely some contribution on the part of Royal Caribbean to

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Speaker 1: this tragic accident. I mean it's akin to saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we found out that cars really need minivans really need

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Speaker 1: to have airbags in them, but we didn't add them.

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Speaker 1: They refurbished, but they did not correct the windows. Joining

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Speaker 1: me special guest Deputy medical Examiner from Travis County, Texas,

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Speaker 1: doctor Kendall Crowns. Doctor Crowns listened to this. How are

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Speaker 1: you getting through just every day just getting up out

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Speaker 1: of bed. The first thirty seconds of the day, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember what happened, and then it comes back and

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Speaker 1: I relive what happened. The thing that I latch onto

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Speaker 1: is her memory. She just exuded love. Kim Chloe say

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Speaker 1: let it go. Kimberly Weekend says her daughter Chloe was

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Speaker 1: the personification of goodness. She loved watching her brother play hockey,

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Speaker 1: She loved gardening with me. She could get anybody to smile.

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Speaker 1: I just know that she was destined to do such

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Speaker 1: great things. But even in her short life, I truly

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Speaker 1: believed she changed so many lives. Her first guest was

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Speaker 1: with me, he kiss, and I had to record it

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Speaker 1: and send it to Kim. Oh, my stars, you are

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Speaker 1: hearing baby Chloe, and you are hearing her mom Kimberly

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Speaker 1: and her dad Alan as they talked to my longtime

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Speaker 1: friend Savannah Guthrie from Court TV now at NBC Today Show.

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Speaker 1: Oh that was just heartwrenching to doctor Kendall Crowns joining me,

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Speaker 1: Deputy Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas a real honor to

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Speaker 1: have you on with us, Doctor Crowns. When you perform

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Speaker 1: autopsies on children, that's got to just break your heart.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you may never get the chance like you

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Speaker 1: just did to actually hear the victim laughing and giggling.

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Speaker 1: But how do you brace yourself? What does it do

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Speaker 1: to you and you're psyche to perform autopsies on children. Oh, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: that's hers part of my job. It's actually hearing that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's it's upset me quite a bit. I apologize,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns. I feel the same way when I just

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Speaker 1: heard her, and then I think of what happened to her,

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Speaker 1: going eleven stories and landing on cement. Yeah, my only

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Speaker 1: consolation is that she died instantly. But yeah, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: When I interviewed, Yeah, when I interview people, or when

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Speaker 1: I was investigating homicides, it would just break my heart

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Speaker 1: when I would meet with a family and they would

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Speaker 1: show me photo albums and videos, and it's just heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you do it, doctor Crowns. Well so,

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Speaker 1: so I always tell people the hardest part of my

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Speaker 1: job is not actually doing the autopsies. It's it's dealing

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Speaker 1: with the grieving family members because they've lost someone and

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Speaker 1: often they're very upset, and they they often have to

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Speaker 1: have someone to yell at, which is usually the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we're part of the grieving process. We

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Speaker 1: help them as best we can. But children, it's it's

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Speaker 1: actually fairly hard sometimes because you know, it's it's a life,

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Speaker 1: a potential that got taken too soon type of thing.

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Speaker 1: But I always approach it as what can we learn

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Speaker 1: from it? What we can what can we do to

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Speaker 1: prevent this from happening to another child, and and what

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Speaker 1: can we do to help the family, you know, and

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Speaker 1: at least give them some closure. So when you get

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Speaker 1: a pediatric autopsy, that's the way I usually approach it

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Speaker 1: is how can I help this to not happen to

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Speaker 1: another child, or at a minimum, to help that family

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Speaker 1: understand what happened and at least help them with the

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Speaker 1: grieving process. But kids are always hard, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I rarely hear the the the end of the

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Speaker 1: story that you just played. So that just was that

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Speaker 1: was just really really hard to hear. You know, what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is resonating with my daughter. Kindall crowns because

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Speaker 1: you're on a mission, as many of us are, to

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Speaker 1: change things, to stop evil or bad things from happening

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Speaker 1: as best we can. Take a Listen to Mom Kimberly

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Speaker 1: as she describes the moment she realized something was horribly wrong.

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Speaker 1: Here she is speaking with Savannah Guthrie. I guess I

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Speaker 1: would say this about the window. When they told me

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Speaker 1: Chloe died, I didn't know that she went out a window.

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Speaker 1: I just saw Sam standing next to the wall of windows.

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Speaker 1: Five kids slash, pat scream and vain, and there was

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Speaker 1: like somebody from Royal Cribby and they kept trying to

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Speaker 1: stop me, and I just kept saying, taking you to

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Speaker 1: my baby? Where is my baby? Taking my baby? I

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Speaker 1: didn't even notice a window. I ran over there and

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Speaker 1: I looked over and it wasn't water down there, it

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Speaker 1: was concrete. But it was just honestly, to lose our

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Speaker 1: baby this way is which is unfathomable. Crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Her first word was high. I mean she

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Speaker 1: loved people. The eighteen month old little girl was the

428
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: light of her parents' life, and her sudden loss aboard

429
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: a Royal Caribbean cruise ship in Puerto Rico has crushed

430
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: her tight knit family. We have a lot of questions,

431
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: primarily why is there an open window in the kid's

432
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: clay area eleven stories off the ground. Chloe's family says

433
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: she fell through that open window said to slide open

434
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: to provide ventilation in what's known as the H two

435
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: ozone aboard the cruise ship. A family attorney says, the

436
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: toddler's grandfather Sam placed her on a railing to look

437
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: out side, believing he was lifting the toddler behind a

438
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: wall of glass, something they did often at hockey games

439
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: at home with Chloe banging on the glass. Has he

440
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: been able to explain to you how this happened? He

441
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: was extremely hysterical. The thing that he has repeatedly told

442
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: us is I believe that there was glass. He will

443
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: cry over and over and no point ever, ever has

444
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: Sam ever put our kids in danger. He must be

445
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: this truck very very stry. I mean you can barely

446
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: look at him without him crying. Can you imagine hoisting

447
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: up baby Chloe to bang on the glass and then

448
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: she makes that first bang and goes overboard, and you're

449
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: standing right there as she flies through the air and

450
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 1: you can't catch her or stop her. Oh, dear Lord

451
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: in heaven, this family on a dream vacation that turns

452
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: into a nightmare in a Royal Caribbean cruise line, their

453
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: little baby eighteen months old. Now, Dad, we want answers.

454
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: You were hearing my longtime friends of Anna Guthrie speaking

455
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: to Camberly and Alan. How did it go wrong. Take

456
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: a listen to this. This one mother just came and

457
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: help me and embraced me, and I'll never forget it.

458
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: She just said, God watch over this family. I just

459
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: want to thank her. I don't know where she is

460
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: or who she is. There was one point where my

461
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 1: son said, Mom, I wish I would have been standing

462
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: there because I would have jumped and I would have

463
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: saved her. And that was like for me because I

464
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: know that he believed that, you know, and to know

465
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: he's living with that, It's just so hard. I'd never

466
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: want another mother to have to experience this, or to

467
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: see what I had to see, or to scream how

468
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: I had to scream, or to have to console their child.

469
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: To blame anyone, you blame the cruise coming. We obviously

470
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: blame them. There are million things that could have been

471
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: done to meet that favor. I know my mom was

472
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: asking people, why on earth is there a window open

473
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: on the eleventh floor without a screen or anything, And

474
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: their response to that was, we need ventilation, get a

475
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: fan for Pete's sake. An open window, an open window

476
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: in a kid zone on a cruise ship. Oh, I

477
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: just I don't know how this granddad will ever live

478
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: with himself whether it's his fault or not, and many people,

479
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: including Chloe's family, say it was not his fault, but

480
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: he's facing jail time. Dave Mack, what about cameras and crew?

481
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: Tell me what you know about this particular cruise ship. Well,

482
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: this particular cruise ship Freedom of the Seas, actually, when

483
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: it was first commissioned in two thousand and six, was

484
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: the largest ship ever built by man. And since then,

485
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: of course other ships have been built it are bigger,

486
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: but at the time it was built, it was state

487
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: of the art. Laws and things changed since then. Now

488
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: they've got nine hundred digital cameras recording twenty four to seven.

489
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: Yet I'm very concerned, Nancy, that Royal Caribbean and San Juan,

490
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, they nobody's turned over any of the surveillance

491
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: video to this family, so that their attorneys can't even

492
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: look at it. It seems very odd when you've got

493
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: a crew of thirteen hundred people, they handled nearly four

494
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: thousand passengers. They've got cameras rolling over every nook and

495
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: cranny of this ship. There's plenty of video that will

496
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: clearly show what happened exactly in that moment, and again

497
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: you're going back to this eleven stories up in an

498
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: area that is built for children to play, and there

499
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: is an open window. I'm just having a hard time

500
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: taking it in because I just have to warn everybody,

501
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: and I write about it extensively in my book coming Out,

502
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: Don't Be a Victim, Dangerous in Traveling. You're talking about

503
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: the San Juan, Puerto Rico Police. Well, it ain't Kansas anymore.

504
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: You're not in the US where you have rights and

505
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: protections under the law. Even in civil cases. They do

506
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: not play by our rules. Yes, they are territory, but

507
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: it's a different world when you talk about it legally.

508
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans Jason Oshans with me, veteran trial lawyer. So,

509
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico is a commonwealth right, so under federal law,

510
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: they're within our federal system, but they're an individual state

511
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: and you know, within the sovereign over the United States.

512
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: So it is a completely different system. And from the

513
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: facts that we're hearing, there's a vested interest between this

514
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: cruise ship line and its stop off in San Juan.

515
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: It needs to stay populated and have a it needs

516
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: to have a good reputation. If it doesn't the local

517
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: economy suffers, Well, you are so right. You really hit

518
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: the nail on the head Jason Oceans, because the lawyer

519
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: Michael Winckelman has posed a lot of questions over the

520
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: regarding the integrity of the Puerto Rican prosecutors, even claiming

521
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: they have an ulterior motive and blaming the Granddad instead

522
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: of criticizing the world's biggest cruise line operator that sends

523
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico millions and millions of dollars. It's their working theory.

524
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: But he goes on to state that he was surprised

525
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: there was an effort to try and have the case

526
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: even go forward overcharging I mean complete overcharging. It's not

527
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 1: even charging. I mean it would be an investigation into

528
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: an an accident and having the ability is you know,

529
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: with all the cameras and everything has discussed, you'd be

530
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: able to see that. They don't want to see that,

531
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: and they don't want us to see that. And that's

532
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: why that chip and the codes have changed to retrofit it.

533
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: And if there was a ventilation problem, you don't fix

534
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: it with an open window or an accessible window on

535
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: eleventh floor overlooking the you know, in the children's zone,

536
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: with allege for sitting. I agree to ventilation close the

537
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: window to doctor Kendall Crowns, joining US Deputy Medical Examiner,

538
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: Travis County, Texas. What would officially be the cause of

539
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: death for this little talk? Chloe cause of death would

540
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: because she spawned from height, That's what I believe. It

541
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: was eleven stories, so that's about one hundred and nineteen feet,

542
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: so she would get major fractures and injuries to an

543
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: internal oregon, so her cause of death would be Bleu

544
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 1: force injuries. It was one hundred fifty feet one hundred

545
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: and fifty okay, yeah, because it went all the way

546
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: from the window down to cement, a cement dock where

547
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: the ship Freedom of the Seas was docked, a diet.

548
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a diagram right now showing how Chloe

549
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: fell one hundred and fifty feet from the ship's eleventh

550
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: the deck to the hard cement below. Take a listen

551
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: to our friends at WPLG and the attorney Michael Winkelman.

552
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: The grandfather takes him over the windows. He thinks it's

553
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: all glass. There's a wood railing right there. He puts

554
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: her up on there and thinking that she's going to

555
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: bang on the glass, and it's going to be great,

556
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: and she goes to being on the glass and the

557
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: next thing he knows, she's gone. He said, this was

558
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: a preventable injury. You talk about that absolutely. What was

559
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: preventable here was really I think, well Cribby needs to

560
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: answer this question is why would you ever in a

561
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: kid's play area put windows that passengers can open. A

562
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: fun fil family vacation that was set to take in

563
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: the sights at San Juan, Saint Martin, Saint Kitts, Saint Lucia, Barbados,

564
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: all came to a grinding halt around four thirty in

565
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: the afternoon. Passengers in the dining area overlooking a pool

566
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: here screams they discovered this little girl lying motionless on

567
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: the cement. Pan American doc below we wait as justice unfalls.

568
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Good Lifetime