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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week blame burden

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Speaker 1: and diplomacy. John Kerry is the forest Cump of climate,

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Speaker 1: the guy you'll find at every important turn in history

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Speaker 1: doing something impactful. In nineteen seventy he was in the

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Speaker 1: streets during the first Earth Day brought ESTs. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two, he was at the Rio Earth Summit that

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Speaker 1: created the cop meetings as we know them. And in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, as the U s Secretary of State, he

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Speaker 1: signed the Paris Agreement with his granddaughter in his arms.

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Speaker 1: But it is the last three years between the ages

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Speaker 1: of seventy seven and eighty that he has been fully

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Speaker 1: dedicated to working on the climate issue, and boy, what

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Speaker 1: a time to get going. In twenty twenty one, soon

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Speaker 1: after he was sworn in, President Joe Biden created a

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Speaker 1: new office for Kerry as the Special Presidential Envoy on Climate,

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Speaker 1: and his first task was to find a way to

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Speaker 1: repair America's global standing in the climate fle That, of course,

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Speaker 1: followed a four year absence during the time when former

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump decided to pull the US out of

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Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement and regressed on environmental policies. The US

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Speaker 1: can be rightly blamed for being the country that has

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Speaker 1: put the most amount of Reno's gas emissions cumulatively into

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere, even though China emits more each year today,

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Speaker 1: it is the historical total that is responsible for global

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Speaker 1: warming and driving extreme weather events. Thus, the US should

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Speaker 1: carry the biggest burden in the climate fight, but it

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Speaker 1: rarely does. Trump's moves only made matters worse. That's why

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Speaker 1: getting the US back on track required Biden to create

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Speaker 1: two teams, one that got working on national climate policies

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Speaker 1: and another one under Carry that began the delicate work

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Speaker 1: of international diplomacy. Three years on, Carry has decided to

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Speaker 1: step away from the post of Climate Envoy. I got

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Speaker 1: a chance to sit down with him in Paris on

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Speaker 1: the sidelines of the fiftieth anniversary meeting of the International

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Speaker 1: Energy Agency. I asked him about whether he succeeded at

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Speaker 1: restoring us' global credibility, the difficulties of making progress in

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Speaker 1: multilateral diplomacy, and what still keeps him up at night.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, mister secretary.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Now let me just start by acknowledging something important there

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Speaker 1: are few people, if any, who have had such a

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Speaker 1: long arc in the environment and climate world. As a citizen,

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Speaker 1: you were on the very first day of Earth Day

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy among the protesters on the streets. As

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Speaker 1: a senator, you were there for the pivotal Senate hearing

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Speaker 1: where climate scientist Jim Hanson spoke clearly than ever before

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Speaker 1: about the coming dangers of climate change in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: You were there, of course, at the nineteen ninety two

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Speaker 1: Rio Earth Summit that led to the creation of the

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Speaker 1: conventions that give us the COP meetings as they exist.

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Speaker 1: And you were there with your granddaughter signing the Paris

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Speaker 1: Agreement in twenty sixteen, and of course your most recent

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Speaker 1: role as the Special Envoy on Climate for the US,

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Speaker 1: you got the US and the EU together at COP

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Speaker 1: twenty six in twenty twenty one to focus on reducing

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Speaker 1: methane emissions. Now, just reflecting on that long journey, what

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Speaker 1: would be two or three other memorable moments that I

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Speaker 1: did not list.

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Speaker 2: Unless my mother, drafting me when I was in elementary school,

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Speaker 2: took me out to early morning bird walk and she

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Speaker 2: created a actually a nature path, and she was a

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Speaker 2: great activist She actually years later founded a recycling program

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Speaker 2: in the town in which she lived. She loved victory

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Speaker 2: gardens and things like that, so I was very blessed

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Speaker 2: to have terrific input and a family that cared enormously

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Speaker 2: about the environment.

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Speaker 1: Now you said that one of your greatest fears is

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Speaker 1: that the world may not pick up the pace of

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Speaker 1: reducing emissions and slowing down climate change, that people will

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Speaker 1: continue on business as usual. If I were to pick

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Speaker 1: a moment in history, the nineteen eighty eighth Senate hearing,

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Speaker 1: when it seemed both Republicans and Democrats were in agreement

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Speaker 1: that climate change is something that must be tackled. Knowing

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Speaker 1: what you know today, what would you tell your forty

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Speaker 1: five year old self then that would have helped the

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Speaker 1: world move faster on tackling climate change.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's a question of what I would

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Speaker 2: have told people. I think it's more a question of

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Speaker 2: what evidence did we have to make the argument to

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Speaker 2: be able to persuade people, And I think obviously we

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Speaker 2: just didn't have enough. At that point in time. It

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Speaker 2: was new, it was scary, it was big, It was

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Speaker 2: a little out of proportion to the things that most

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Speaker 2: people were wrestling with in the Senate, and some people

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Speaker 2: just shrug their shoulders, and you know, that's somewhere way

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Speaker 2: down the road in the future. I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: worry about that today. And that has characterized a great

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Speaker 2: deal of the years of the climate crisis, of it growing,

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Speaker 2: an indifference, greed, business as usual, a sense of lack

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Speaker 2: of adequate input and evidence. Human nature, I mean, a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of things have blind in a terrible sort

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Speaker 2: of conspiracy of just realities to prevent people from being

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Speaker 2: as forward leaning as early as we needed to be.

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Speaker 2: So we're facing grave consequences now. And that's really what

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Speaker 2: we're trying to convince people of is, Look, we can

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Speaker 2: solve the problem. We have the knowledge of what we

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Speaker 2: have to do. We even have enough technologies to get

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Speaker 2: to twenty thirty. But we can get to that date

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Speaker 2: and fulfill our obligation to reduce emissions by a minimum

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Speaker 2: of forty three percent. We can do that, but not

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Speaker 2: everyone is choosing to do that. So we have a

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Speaker 2: political challenge here, and one of organizing a great part

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Speaker 2: of the world to act responsibly.

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Speaker 1: It is the first time that all countries have agreed

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Speaker 1: to set recommendations that could, in principle keep us on

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Speaker 1: track to meet Paris goals, especially the one point five

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Speaker 1: degree celsius goal. The question is that to do any

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Speaker 1: of it will require trillions of dollars to move many

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Speaker 1: times from developed countries to developing countries, and that's no

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Speaker 1: longer a crazy thing to think about. Last year, global

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Speaker 1: investment in energy transition was one point eight trillion dollars,

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Speaker 1: so we're already talking in the trillions now. But the

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Speaker 1: biggest gap does remain in developing countries. Those are the

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Speaker 1: places that are not getting the investments that are needed.

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Speaker 1: The power of the US is the largest shareholder of

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Speaker 1: World Bank, for example, can make that happen. There is

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Speaker 1: a conversation right now around reforming the multilateral development banks

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Speaker 1: to be unlocking these trillions of dollars needed for the

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Speaker 1: climate transition. What do you think is needed today, exactly

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Speaker 1: today to make it happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me if I may respectfully correct one thing

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Speaker 2: you said, which is it's not a question of not

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Speaker 2: being able to do any of it. We can do

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Speaker 2: a lot of it. We just can't guarantee that we're

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Speaker 2: going to get to the goal of net zero twenty

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Speaker 2: fifty and of the production we need by twenty thirty,

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Speaker 2: because if we don't get it by twenty thirty, there

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Speaker 2: is no net zero twenty fifty. But we can do

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Speaker 2: a lot of things, and we are doing a lot

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Speaker 2: of things. It's just not big enough. It's not enough.

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Speaker 2: It has to come to scale and it has to

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Speaker 2: happen faster. But there are clearly steps being taken now

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Speaker 2: and have been sort of building up to develop new

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Speaker 2: technologies to deploy many of those new technologies. We need

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Speaker 2: to have better storage, We need to have green hydrogen,

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Speaker 2: We need better electrolyzers. We need to be able to

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Speaker 2: hopefully win the battle of a new energy production called fusion.

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Speaker 2: We have to be able to get more solar and

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Speaker 2: more wind deployed much faster. We have to apply AI

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Speaker 2: to this. I mean, they're just a whole bunch of things.

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Speaker 2: These ready to are just staring us in the face.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately no country has enough money to automatically implement

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Speaker 2: every part of this. We've got to pick the priorities,

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Speaker 2: I guess, and move as rapidly as we can. But

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Speaker 2: I feel greater optimism now, partly as a result of

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Speaker 2: COP twenty eight in Dubai, but partly as a result

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Speaker 2: of what people are doing all over the world. We

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Speaker 2: have many new initiatives that have come out of our work.

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Speaker 2: I'm proud to say, out of the Special Presidential Envoys

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Speaker 2: Office that was created, we've got initiatives that are bringing

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Speaker 2: companies to the table and accelerating their ability to take

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Speaker 2: hard to abate sectors of the economy like shipping or aviation,

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Speaker 2: or cement or steel, et cetera. And they're addressing those things.

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Speaker 2: We also have very significant reduction in the price of

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Speaker 2: solar and wind. It's almost free in a sense, and

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Speaker 2: we need to deploy much more rapidly. So I think

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Speaker 2: we're on the cusp of just a major economic transformation

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Speaker 2: where the economies of the world are all going to

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Speaker 2: be moving into a new economic model, which will be

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Speaker 2: a clean energy economy based on these new technologies. So

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Speaker 2: I'm excited by that, and I think that the key

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Speaker 2: for all of us now is to accelerate and scale up.

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Speaker 2: Those are the two biggest things.

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Speaker 1: Many of the examples that you brought up required government initiative,

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Speaker 1: So have money and first movie Coalition, which you were

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Speaker 1: hinting at, where you brought companies together to purchase green

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Speaker 1: steel or green cement. That's going to have an impact

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Speaker 1: because that'll bring these companies.

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Speaker 2: It sends the signal to the marketplace, and the marketplace says,

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Speaker 2: oh wow, they're making green steel. We may pay slightly

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Speaker 2: more for it right now, but that's going to advantage

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Speaker 2: the world because it helps us meet our goal.

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Speaker 1: In the same way, when we're looking at trying to

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Speaker 1: get multilateral development banks reformed so that they can provide

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Speaker 1: that accelerant, you don't need them to provide all the trillions.

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Speaker 1: You need them to provide just the enough amount, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of billions maybe to accelerate the transition. What do you

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Speaker 1: think your role as the US or what government role

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Speaker 1: can be played to enable that reform to actually happen.

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Speaker 2: We have made some of that reform happen. Whereas in

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Speaker 2: Biden undertook to create change at the World Bank, we

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Speaker 2: have a new leader at the World Bank. Now. In

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Speaker 2: addition to that, we have rules changes that came in

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Speaker 2: with the Fall Meeting and Spring Meeting of the World

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Speaker 2: Bank last year, so that now there's a bigger pot

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Speaker 2: of money available to act as catalytic lending money, so

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Speaker 2: that money can generate even more investment from the private sector,

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Speaker 2: which is exactly its purpose, and that's what we wanted

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Speaker 2: to do. Think that there are other finance mechanisms we've

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Speaker 2: been working on, and the reason we're working on the

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Speaker 2: finance is that the UN Finance Report and other economic

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Speaker 2: analyzes have all agreed that in order to win the battle,

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Speaker 2: which is what we ought to be doing, let's do

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Speaker 2: what we need to do to win the battle. That

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Speaker 2: means we have to be investing something like two and

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Speaker 2: a half to five trillion dollars a year for the

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Speaker 2: next thirty years, and we're now at about one point

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Speaker 2: eight trillions. I think you mentioned the key now is

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Speaker 2: to find different ways to catalyze to attract private capital

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Speaker 2: to the table. Why because the private capital can make money,

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Speaker 2: people will be attracted to that marketplace. The truth is

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Speaker 2: that in the US, the clean energy jobs in the

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Speaker 2: last year outpaced other energy jobs. So this is a

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Speaker 2: job creator. This is a really exciting economic transformation, bigger

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Speaker 2: than anything that's happen and economically in the world since

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Speaker 2: the Industrial Revolution. And I think this would be an

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Speaker 2: even bigger impact economically on all of our countries.

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Speaker 1: Going back to the point around COP twenty eight, if

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Speaker 1: you look at the conversation around climate action. People often

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Speaker 1: criticize the COP. The global diplomacy framework gets dinged for

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Speaker 1: not being able to act fast enough for what is

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Speaker 1: an urgent problem. The Paris Agreement took twenty years of

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Speaker 1: back and forth to get to that point. If you

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Speaker 1: ask people what should we do as a global community

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Speaker 1: to solve the problem, they come to some solution of

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Speaker 1: a form that looks like a COP. But if you

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Speaker 1: were to reform cops to become better fit for the

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Speaker 1: challenge we face today, what would you do well?

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Speaker 2: I think in fairness to the COP process, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not here to say it's perfect, but it represents the

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Speaker 2: hardest form of diploma. See, there is multilateralism. It's a

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Speaker 2: supercharged multilateralism. This isn't ten nations, this isn't G seven,

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Speaker 2: it's not even G twenty. It's about one hundred and

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Speaker 2: ninety five countries globally, and you have to find consensus.

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Speaker 2: Some people say, well, maybe we shouldn't find convention. Maybe

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Speaker 2: we ought to have a system where we have votes,

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Speaker 2: and you have a vote and majority wins or supermajority wins.

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Speaker 2: The problem with that is that you will wind up

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Speaker 2: with some nations that feel hugely aggrieved at some point

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Speaker 2: in time where everybody just runs over their desires and

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Speaker 2: votes and they go home completely disgraveled, and you don't

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Speaker 2: have a unified effort to do whatever it is you're

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Speaker 2: trying to do. So it's a mixed blessing. But I

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Speaker 2: think for this kind of effort, the multilateralism that has

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Speaker 2: kind of worked in the last years. Anyway, no country

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Speaker 2: stood up and said we're going to crash this thing

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Speaker 2: in Dubai didn't happen. People left with a consensus, and

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Speaker 2: that consensus creates greater impetus. It really pushes the system forward,

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Speaker 2: and it makes it harder for some other countries to

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Speaker 2: ignore what everybody else is doing. So I'm not sure,

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Speaker 2: you know, you could pick a thing here or two

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Speaker 2: in the process, but by and large, that was a

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Speaker 2: pretty damn good meeting that took place in Dubai, and

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Speaker 2: the results of it speak for themselves.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you the question on the other side,

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Speaker 1: which is COP twenty eight. We shall see if it

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Speaker 1: makes an impact, But what is undeniable is that Cop

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Speaker 1: twenty one, the Paris Agreement, has made an impact.

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Speaker 2: For sure. Paris was a huge step forward. I was

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Speaker 2: privileged to lead our delegations negotiating team in Paris and

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Speaker 2: spent the full two weeks or whatever there during that

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Speaker 2: time when I was Secretary. But what we achieved building

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Speaker 2: on Paris is may may be more significant. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying is because right now it's words on a piece

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Speaker 2: of paper. It has to be implemented. That is the key.

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Speaker 2: And what we need to do is make sure that

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Speaker 2: we are really following up, which is what our team

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Speaker 2: is going to do and I'm going to do. We're

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Speaker 2: going to continue, I'm going to continue to work on

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Speaker 2: the climate issue, not going to run away from it.

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Speaker 2: And I believe we can bring more private sector people

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Speaker 2: to the table, then we can accelerate what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: So if we can do that out of Cop twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: that'll be a huge success, one of the most important cops.

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Speaker 2: So let me if I may say a word about

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Speaker 2: why is Cop twenty eight and do buy so important?

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Speaker 2: It's important because it created a consensus around the following words.

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Speaker 2: We have to transition away from fossil fuel in a

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Speaker 2: way that is fair, just equitable, and accelerating in this decade.

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Speaker 2: Accelerating in this decade so as to achieve net zero

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Speaker 2: twenty fifty according to the science. Those extra words are

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Speaker 2: really critical. According to the science, means one point five degrees,

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Speaker 2: that's your north start, and net zero twenty fifty means

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Speaker 2: you've got to have a plan. You've got to show

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Speaker 2: people how you're going to get there. And accelerating in

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Speaker 2: this decade is really critical because there are a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of folks who have sort of way out there

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Speaker 2: goals that won't accelerate this decade, and the only way

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Speaker 2: we get there is to accelerate in this decade. That's

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Speaker 2: the importance of this cop It's created a framework that

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Speaker 2: could actually change behavior and greatly accelerate our efforts. It

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Speaker 2: depends on the goodwill, good faith, good sense of countries

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Speaker 2: to really now put their older to the wheel and

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Speaker 2: make it happen.

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Speaker 1: It is very important to recognize that those order of words,

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Speaker 1: those extra words matter because they've been signed off by

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Speaker 1: all one hundred and ninety five countries.

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Speaker 2: Well well also a particular meaning to getting the job done, of.

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Speaker 1: Course, and so when you think about the Paris Agreement,

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Speaker 1: just reflecting on the strength that it is that it

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Speaker 1: allowed the countries to be able to progress. What are

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Speaker 1: things you think people don't appreciate about the Paris Agreement

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Speaker 1: that you in your everyday job take for grunted.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think if you went out and

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Speaker 2: asked the average person in the street anywhere and say

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Speaker 2: what do you think of the Paris Agreement, they say,

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Speaker 2: what is up for the Eiffel Tower? Or is about

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Speaker 2: the sand River? Or what is that about? It's more

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Speaker 2: the activists and the government officials and a lot of

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Speaker 2: private sector now who are following very closely what's happening.

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Speaker 2: But the average person, you know, they follow the flood,

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Speaker 2: and they follow the tornado, and they see what's happening

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Speaker 2: in the weather dramatically because of what's happening with the crisis.

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Speaker 2: But you're not going to expect them to know the

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Speaker 2: details of that kind of an agreement.

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Speaker 1: And so as climate solutions start getting more and more

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Speaker 1: closer to people's lives, more and more about the decisions

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Speaker 1: they make on a daily basis, what do they eat,

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Speaker 1: what do they drive, where they travel? Is it important

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Speaker 1: that people who understand the Paras Agreement, who understand this world,

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Speaker 1: make that point understood to the audience, so that the

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Speaker 1: social license for climate action is available.

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Speaker 2: Everybody who is an activist on a climate issue needs

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Speaker 2: to be even more active. They need to communicate regularly.

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Speaker 2: They need to be pushing candidates, or pushing resolutions, or

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Speaker 2: running for office or It takes an activism to do

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Speaker 2: what we have to do here, and we need a

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Speaker 2: lot more activists.

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Speaker 1: More from the conversation after the break. Now, One reason

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Speaker 1: why what you say makes such a difference is because

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Speaker 1: you represent the world's largest economy. Another reason is that

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Speaker 1: it's also the country that has contributed the most in

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Speaker 1: adding to the greenhouse gas load causing the problem. Going

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteen ninety two Reo Earth Summit, it

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Speaker 1: enshrined the idea of common but differentiated responsibilities, which basically

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Speaker 1: says those with greater means should do more to address

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Speaker 1: the problem, and the US is the country with the

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Speaker 1: greatest means. But you also bristle at the idea that

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Speaker 1: doing more should just mean cold, hard government cash, which

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Speaker 1: analysis is after analysis shows that the US hasn't quite

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Speaker 1: contributed as much as it should, So if not cash,

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Speaker 1: one place you say that the US has made a

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Speaker 1: fundamental contribution is around technology development. Do you think just

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Speaker 1: those two things are enough for what the US must

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Speaker 1: do to match up to its responsibility behind the cumulative

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Speaker 1: emissions that it has been up.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not. No, I do not believe that that is enough,

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Speaker 2: nor is that what we have allowed to be enough,

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Speaker 2: because we've been the ones pushing a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: other initiatives, and unknown to a lot of people, while

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Speaker 2: a particular program of climate may not have been as

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Speaker 2: fully funded as something else or someone else chose to be,

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Speaker 2: we are the largest humanitarian donor in the world. We

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Speaker 2: hit the one hundred billion that had been promised in Paris,

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Speaker 2: and everybody was contentious about why isn't that hit, Why

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Speaker 2: isn't that hit. It turns out it was hit and

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Speaker 2: met in twenty twenty two. It was met last year

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Speaker 2: in twenty three, and that's partly because we put up

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Speaker 2: more money, but we also worked with other countries to

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Speaker 2: bring more to the table. So I think we've had

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Speaker 2: a very positive impact in that way. President Biden has

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Speaker 2: put forward an emergency plan for dealing with adaptation, and

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Speaker 2: in that plan, he's promised twelve billion dollars in order

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Speaker 2: to help make that happen. He's put down payments down

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Speaker 2: each year now in the budget and what we chose

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Speaker 2: to do was address America's absence from the prior four years.

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Speaker 2: So we approached it with humility because we needed to

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Speaker 2: be humble. Having not contributed money or been involved for

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Speaker 2: those four years, we knew we had to earn our

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Speaker 2: credibility and work our way back. We worked hard at

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Speaker 2: doing that. President Biden rejoined the agreement the afternoon, within

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Speaker 2: a couple hours of being sworn in as president, and

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Speaker 2: we began the process of moving around the world doing

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Speaker 2: climate diplomacy to raise other countries ambition, to get people

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Speaker 2: to put in a new National Determined Contribution so called NDC.

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Speaker 2: And people did, and so we held a summit in

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Speaker 2: the East Room of the White House. Virtually President she

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Speaker 2: took part, President Putin took part. It was before Ukraine

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Speaker 2: and other tensions, but we got people to commit during

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Speaker 2: that to raise their ambition for Glasgow and then raise

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Speaker 2: their ambition for Sharma Shaik And ultimately we really succeeded

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Speaker 2: in pulling people to a whole bunch of initiatives that

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Speaker 2: made a difference. We started Agriculture Initiative to help farmers

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Speaker 2: and other people be able to deal with new forms

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Speaker 2: of agriculture or ways in which they could deal with

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Speaker 2: methane or other challenges. We created the Methane Pledge. We

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Speaker 2: started with about twenty countries. Now we have one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty five nations onto this, and there's major attention

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Speaker 2: on methane. We also put out a pledge to triple

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Speaker 2: the deployment of nuclear and to double energy efficiency, which

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Speaker 2: is one of the best ways you can reduce costs

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Speaker 2: at some point. We have a maritime shipping initiative which

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Speaker 2: is now seeing ships building a carbon free propulsion on

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Speaker 2: those ships. So there are so many places where I

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Speaker 2: think our initiative has helped. And I say that not

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Speaker 2: with any arrogance or anything, but with pride, with a

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Speaker 2: sense also that that's making a difference. We really did

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Speaker 2: change the way everybody is engaging in this by raising

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Speaker 2: ambition and starting these initiatives.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and let me just pick methane emissions. Because the

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Speaker 1: pledge started with only twenty countries, it wasn't part of

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Speaker 1: the main negotiated document in Glasgow, and of course that

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Speaker 1: hasn't stopped it from being effective and growing in size.

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Speaker 1: So there is clearly reayson which even outside of these

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Speaker 1: big thick channels of diplomacy that you can make stuff happen,

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Speaker 1: but you're also going to be moving on from this job,

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Speaker 1: staying in climate doing other things. It would be remiss

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Speaker 1: to not ask about your frustrations in this role. What

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Speaker 1: stopped you from doing more, or what were things that

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Speaker 1: you wanted but you couldn't achieve that you would hope

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Speaker 1: your successor.

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Speaker 2: I would have loved to have been able to invest

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Speaker 2: more funding in the transition to help people have a

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Speaker 2: just fair, equitable transition. So you have to be able

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Speaker 2: to try to get some focus on poor or disenfranchised communities.

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Speaker 2: I would have liked to have seen us be able

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Speaker 2: to help some of those communities more than we've been

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Speaker 2: able to, even though we have upped the amount of

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Speaker 2: assistance that they're getting and the focus that they're getting.

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Speaker 2: I wish we could have gotten Congress more enlisted in

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Speaker 2: this so that we were really putting some of the

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Speaker 2: federal money on the table that we need to be

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Speaker 2: able to attract more private sector money. You have to

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Speaker 2: de risk some of these deals out there. But all

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Speaker 2: in all, I don't look at I honestly don't think

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Speaker 2: that there are that many regrets by us, except for

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Speaker 2: the speed and size of what we all wish we

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Speaker 2: were doing. All the programs we tried to put in

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Speaker 2: place are in place, They are working, they are making

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Speaker 2: a difference.

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Speaker 1: Now, last question, one big pitcher question. You've said the

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Speaker 1: thing that is slowing progress down is political will. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you go back to nineteen seventy, to that Earth

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Speaker 1: Day and you look over the lifetime of looking at

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Speaker 1: environmental issues, climate issues as Secretary of State, traveling around

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Speaker 1: the world, do you think there is now enough political

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Speaker 1: will or much more than we had in the past,

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Speaker 1: that this thing is something that people will remain focused

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Speaker 1: on and address, if not to the perfect level, but

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Speaker 1: at least go much much closer to the goals.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's not enough. There's much more, and no question,

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Speaker 2: there's much more, and there could be more, and there

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Speaker 2: needs to be even more. But what we do know

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Speaker 2: is that what we have been able to achieve has

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Speaker 2: really moved the ball very significantly. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: listen to the IA where we are today as we're

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Speaker 2: having this conversation, the IA has helped to change the

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Speaker 2: playing field and has helped us to have a referee

439
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: who can kind of step in and say, hey, wait

440
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: a minute, you got to do this, or you've got

441
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: to do that, or here's what's happening. And they've been

442
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: really good on the science, really good on helping people

443
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: to understand the reality of why we have to move.

444
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: Even more so, there are a lot of partnerships that

445
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: have come out of this. The IA and US Envoy's

446
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: Office is one of them. But we've also built much

447
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: stronger relationships with a lot of our fellow ministers in

448
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: Germany and France and Norway and the UK around the world.

449
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 2: That's been really satisfying. Now you raised the question, you know,

450
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: why not more, why aren't we kind of getting it done?

451
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: We face basic human behavior as a challenge in this.

452
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: First of all, it's a big issue. Hard to get

453
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: your arms around it and grasp it if you're just

454
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: living everyday life and don't deal with it all the time.

455
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: And in addition, there's some bad actors. We are fighting disinformation,

456
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: we're fighting exploitation, people who scare people and say, oh

457
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: my god, you know, look at these guys. They want

458
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: to tell you what kind of car you have to drive,

459
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: They want to force you into an untenable job or whatever. No, no,

460
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: and no, and no, we're not trying to do anything

461
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: like that. We want people to choose whatever it is

462
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: they want, but we want them to have the ability

463
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: to have a wise choice steering them in the face.

464
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: And that means that you've got to have the opportunities

465
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: to have clean power, you've got to have good long

466
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: distance travel and batteries for electric vehicles, and you've got

467
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: to do more to sort of make that happen than

468
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: we are. So I really think that we've got a template,

469
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: we know what we have to do, but human nature

470
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: is a challenge at times, and people are scared sometimes

471
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: and they hear from somebody, oh, you know, if you

472
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: do that, you're not going to be able to get

473
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: to work, or you know, your energy will be shut

474
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: off or something. There's just an awful lot of outright

475
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: lying and there's sort of a selfish greed that does

476
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: motivate some people who are in places where they can

477
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: have an impact, and so that's one of the things

478
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: we have to fight and fight back against.

479
00:29:51,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, mister secretary, Thank you for listening to Zero.

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00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,200
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00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,120
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Speaker 1: am Akshatrati back So