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Speaker 1: join the Justice Nation crime stops here dot com. God

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Speaker 1: willing crime stories with Nancy Grace. Her body was found

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Speaker 1: on December twenty fourth of two thousand. How was she killed?

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Speaker 1: While she was shot in the back of the head.

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Speaker 1: What kind of gun? It was a nine millimeter and

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Speaker 1: Gus Flank had just one shot? Not guiltily will be

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Speaker 1: answered you are I'm willing to waive my rights. I

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Speaker 1: do want to say here now row I am not guilty.

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Speaker 1: I do not killed who you are hearing the sound

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Speaker 1: of multi millionaire real estate air Robert Durst insisting he

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Speaker 1: did not kill his best friend Susan Burman execution style

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Speaker 1: in her California home. What could have been the motive?

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Speaker 1: Maybe because Susan Burman knew Durst murdered his wife, Kathy.

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Speaker 1: I was recently speaking at the Battered Women's Center named

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Speaker 1: after his wife, Kathy. Everyone in that community is convinced

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Speaker 1: that Robert Durst, the multi millionaire, kill not only his

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Speaker 1: wife Kathy, her body has never been found, but the

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Speaker 1: best friend that knew the details of that murder. And

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Speaker 1: oh yes, there's Maurice Black, the elderly next door neighbor

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Speaker 1: that was beheaded, his body washed up in Galveston Bay,

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Speaker 1: found by a little boy, and a jury acquitted his

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Speaker 1: neighbor Robert Durst. Everywhere this guy goes, he leaves behind

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Speaker 1: a trail of dead bodies. Straight to you, Raymond Judah Chay,

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Speaker 1: renowned Atlanta defense attorney. How can that be? What just

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Speaker 1: a little coinkie diink a coincidence that everywhere Durst goes

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Speaker 1: people end up dead. Yeah, don't don't go on a

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Speaker 1: long ride with him across country. You probably don't get

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Speaker 1: past the Mississippi River. He this is a difficult client.

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Speaker 1: Was I supposed to laugh at that? Was that a

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Speaker 1: kind of a Was that a defense attorney joke? Was that?

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Speaker 1: What that was? When you do what we do, you

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Speaker 1: have to have some sort of a sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: But but this gentleman is going to come to a

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Speaker 1: lawyer's office with all kinds of problems, but all kinds

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Speaker 1: of funding. That's why he has excellent legal counsel on

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Speaker 1: each of these many proceedings, all of which are death

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Speaker 1: cases and serious cases. As you pointed out. In the

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Speaker 1: current case, of course, he has pled not guilty and

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Speaker 1: he's ready for trial. He's won before, he feels he'll

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Speaker 1: win again, and he's got the bucks to the fund

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Speaker 1: the case. Joining me, Robin Ulinski, Crime Online dot Com

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Robin, I really don't know where to start

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Speaker 1: with Robert Durst. You all probably saw the mini series

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Speaker 1: on HBO called Jinks Okay that was about Durst, and

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Speaker 1: famously they say he actually confessed to a murder under

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Speaker 1: his voice under you know, in a low voice, whispered

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Speaker 1: I kill them all. Now, how will that change the

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Speaker 1: landscape of this trial? Take a listen to this or

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Speaker 1: maybe yeah, right to Robin Molenski explained to me what

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Speaker 1: he's saying in the bathroom. Well, here's the story, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: This HBO documentary it's called The Jinx, The Life and

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Speaker 1: Death with an s the depth of Robert Durst, and

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Speaker 1: basically it's a five or six it's a six part

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Speaker 1: series and at the very end his microphone, Durst goes

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom and he's sort of he's an eccentric guy,

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Speaker 1: and he's sort of talking to himself and mumbling and

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Speaker 1: muttering and burping, and he basically says, hmm, I just

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Speaker 1: got caught. And then he goes on to actually say,

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Speaker 1: and we have the audio of it where I killed

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Speaker 1: them all of course, let's take to listen to that term.

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Speaker 1: There you hear him saying, I kill them all of course.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Raymond, you to Chay Atlanta defense lawyer

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Speaker 1: Robin Willinski, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, forensics expert

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith, and New York psychologist Karen Start a special

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Speaker 1: guest joining me. Co author of Sex and a Serial Killer,

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Speaker 1: My Bizarre Times with Robert Durst, Gary Greenberg. You know, Gary,

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Speaker 1: I noticed when I got your book on I say

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Speaker 1: on Kendall, but I actually got it on Amazon, that

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Speaker 1: you and your co author have dedicated the book to

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Speaker 1: the memories of several people. Very often a book will

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Speaker 1: be dedicated to the memory of X, but you have

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Speaker 1: dedicated your book to Kathleen Kathy McCormick Durst, a medical

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Speaker 1: student who misguidedly married Robert Durst. You also dedicated to

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Speaker 1: Lynn Schultz, college student missing at just eighteen years old,

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Speaker 1: Susan Burman, Durst's best friend, and Morris Black, a seventy

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Speaker 1: year old retired watch for pairman merchant seaman killed in Galveston,

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Speaker 1: who was Robert durst next door neighbor. Why Gary, do

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Speaker 1: you end it with? The book is dedicated to the

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Speaker 1: memory of how many more and you have? Which I

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Speaker 1: thought was pretty ingenious. You have a picture there with

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Speaker 1: a silhouette, explained Gary. The book is a memoir by

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Speaker 1: a man that's going by the name of William Steele.

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Speaker 1: And William Steele is a repentant jewel thief who knew

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Speaker 1: Durst for many years shortly after he met him shortly

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Speaker 1: after Kathy disappeared, and so he knew Durst personally for

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Speaker 1: about a decade and got to know him very well,

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Speaker 1: and believes that Durst is the wealthiest serial killer in

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Speaker 1: American history. He believes he not only killed Kathy Durst,

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Speaker 1: but also Susan Burman and this college student, lam Shol

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Speaker 1: as well as he believes there are several others. So

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Speaker 1: that's why there's a silhouette back at the last last

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Speaker 1: one that he dedicates it too, because nobody knows how

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Speaker 1: many people this guy has murdered. Your book just came

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Speaker 1: out in October. I got it on Amazon and am

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Speaker 1: reading it on Kendall. And that's the first thing that

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Speaker 1: struck me when I looked at it, was that silhouette

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Speaker 1: and how many murder victims this book is dedicated to.

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Speaker 1: I noticed in chapter three Getting to Know Bobby, you

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Speaker 1: right that Susan Burman was worried about the friend dealing

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Speaker 1: with Durst, and that he was worried that Durst may

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Speaker 1: kill her one day for knowing too much. Now, right

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Speaker 1: there at the beginning in your chapter three Getting to

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Speaker 1: Know Bobby, I found it very telling that even while

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Speaker 1: Susan Burman was alive, she expressed some degree of fear

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Speaker 1: about people dealing with Durst. Explain that Gary, well, actually

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Speaker 1: when they first met, they literally this guy still literally

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Speaker 1: bumped into Durst in Manhattan and spilled the soda on him.

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Speaker 1: Durst with was with Susan Burman at the time, and

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Speaker 1: they got into an altercation, and they nearly got into

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Speaker 1: a pretty serious fight, and Susan Burman helped break up

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Speaker 1: the fight with another friend of Steals, and at that

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Speaker 1: point Susan said to him, Uh, still, uh, he's you know,

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Speaker 1: explained who Robert was. He's a very rich guy, and

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Speaker 1: his wife was recently murdered, and still and there looked

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Speaker 1: at her and glared at her, because at that point

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Speaker 1: Kathy Durst was just a missing person. So right there,

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Speaker 1: from that initial blunder, she corrected herself and very quickly

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Speaker 1: and said, oh, I mean that she's missing, but we

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Speaker 1: feared that she's dead. But she always apparently feared Durst,

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Speaker 1: and eventually I think that fear was proven true. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. Don't say this to you, Ray, Ray, due

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Speaker 1: to Tay joining me, Ray, you can't really talk about

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Speaker 1: the murder of Susan Burman, Robert Durst's best friend, without

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Speaker 1: talking about the disappearance of his wife, his young wife, Kathy.

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Speaker 1: And I learned prosecuting so many murders in inter city

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Speaker 1: Atlanta that when you start, it's like a ball of yarn.

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Speaker 1: Once you start unraveling it and it finally gets all

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Speaker 1: straightened out, one murder is very often connected to another

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Speaker 1: and another and another. And what this author Gary Greenberg

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Speaker 1: of Sex and a Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with

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Speaker 1: Robert Durst, is saying is true, and I experienced it

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Speaker 1: so many times Ray in different scenarios. You know, you

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Speaker 1: remember the Red Oak triple homicide and that you know,

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Speaker 1: just nearly destroyed me prosecuting that case, and one murder

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Speaker 1: would lead to this dope ring, and that would lead

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Speaker 1: to another murder and another murder. I think he's onto something,

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Speaker 1: because once you start killing Ray, it's like in your blood,

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Speaker 1: you can't quit, and you get away with it. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you and I both know that a majority

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Speaker 1: of the violent crime committed is actually committed by a

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Speaker 1: very small group of people, the same people who commit

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Speaker 1: one crime after another and after another. And whether it's

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Speaker 1: for the thrill or the challenge as some about you know,

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Speaker 1: some theories maybe, or the proceeds, it's a lifestyle. And

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think that the book, as

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Speaker 1: I understand, I have not read it, so I've confessed

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Speaker 1: to that, but gives the prosecution and the upcoming trial

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Speaker 1: a roadmap and an effort that they will make to

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Speaker 1: try to introduce what is commonly known as similar transactions

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Speaker 1: evidence under the federal rules for four be adopted by

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Speaker 1: almost all of the states or have a similar evidentiary

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Speaker 1: rule where a prosecutor will try to show a plan,

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Speaker 1: mode of scheme, opportunity. There's there's many different theories of

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Speaker 1: under which you can enter similar transaction. Now, I will

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Speaker 1: say that blood lust or thrill of the crime is

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Speaker 1: generally not an acceptable pattern under the rules of evidence,

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Speaker 1: But I think that's what the prosecution is going to

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Speaker 1: try to show. More. Really, the show this is a

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Speaker 1: series of violent acts, one of which is designed to

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Speaker 1: cover up the prior Vinyl attact. And that's the case

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Speaker 1: that we have here. Yeah, I guess to put it

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Speaker 1: in a nutshell, I don't know how they can really

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Speaker 1: try the Susan Burman case. And this is a woman

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Speaker 1: that had been Durst a long time friend he had been.

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Speaker 1: I think they've been exchanging money. Why is a good question?

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Speaker 1: Was it hush money? But long story short, how can

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Speaker 1: you try the Susan Burman case if your theory is

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Speaker 1: she knew too much about Kathy Durst murder without bringing

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Speaker 1: in Kathy Durst murder. If you don't believe he did it,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to this slip he made while filming

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Speaker 1: the Jenes. Why should we care about him? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think this is a kind of amazing, unique human story,

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Speaker 1: but it also is happening on a kind of operatic level.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're dealing with a family that has a

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Speaker 1: tremendous reach. They're quite a private family and yet enormously powerful.

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Speaker 1: You know, these are these are there's not a family

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Speaker 1: that's building a local apartment building. They're building the Bank

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Speaker 1: of America Tower, the Condon Nas Building, the Freedom Tower

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Speaker 1: on the side of the World Trade Center. So it's

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Speaker 1: an important family and it's an important and unusual story.

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Speaker 1: You very seldom have somebody who's been accused of this

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Speaker 1: kind of series of grizzly crimes who's also the scion

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Speaker 1: of this enormously powerful family. You are hearing from Minnie

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Speaker 1: would say, now disgraced. But a renowned interview where that's

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Speaker 1: Charlie Rose and he's talking a little bit about Robert

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Speaker 1: Durst's family, multi multi millionaires. Exactly who are they, Robin Malinsky,

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Speaker 1: they are the Durst family. You know, there's rich and

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Speaker 1: then there's you know, uber rich, really really rich billionaires

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Speaker 1: who build all these buildings in Manhattan. And he was

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Speaker 1: one of five kids, but he was the black sheep

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Speaker 1: of the family. I mean they even built that were

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Speaker 1: responsible for the Freedom Tower build on the World Trade

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Speaker 1: Center side at ground zero, and so he had tons

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Speaker 1: of money. You know, you talked about some of the money,

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Speaker 1: the banking transactions. There was fifty thousand dollars twenty five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars, two payments, two checks that went into Susan

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Speaker 1: Burman's bank account. And there are many people that believe that,

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Speaker 1: you know that she was kind of like down on

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Speaker 1: her financial luck in later years of her life. She

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Speaker 1: was the daughter of a mob boss, grew up in

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Speaker 1: Vegas around all these mob characters, but kind of fell

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Speaker 1: on hard times, and there are many people that think

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Speaker 1: that he was giving her the money to keep her quiet. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is what we know now. Prosecutors in LA's murder

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Speaker 1: case against New York real estate millionaire Robert Durst want

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Speaker 1: the victim's words to come out in court, Susan Burman,

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Speaker 1: and they have filed about four hundred pages of documents

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Speaker 1: to argue statements Burman made to all of her friends

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Speaker 1: just before she was killed should be allowed in to

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Speaker 1: help prove Durst murdered her to silence what she knew

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Speaker 1: about Kathy's first wife disappearance. Dured so many unusual factors

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Speaker 1: surrounding Kathy's disappearance. I remember a rug went missing from

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Speaker 1: their home. He had gone out in a chartered plane.

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Speaker 1: He was a pilot. Her body is never going to

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Speaker 1: be found. I can tell you that much right now.

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Speaker 1: He was the last one known to be with her.

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Speaker 1: Someone faked a call to her medical school the following

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Speaker 1: morning saying that she wouldn't be there for classes. It's

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Speaker 1: just such a trail, and at the time he was

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Speaker 1: so rich and so well regarded that the local district

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Speaker 1: attorney neither then nor later in Westchester County ever prosecuted.

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Speaker 1: So does that leave us What are some of the

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Speaker 1: statements she made? Why does the prosecution want them to

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Speaker 1: come in to rage you, to chase really hard. I've

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Speaker 1: done it myself to get in words from a dead

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Speaker 1: murder victim. Very often you have to jump through a

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Speaker 1: lot of legal hurdles. They can either be deathbed statement

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Speaker 1: like Ray Carruth did this to me. We just heard

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Speaker 1: about that in the murder of Sharika Adams. Very often

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Speaker 1: you can get in dying declarations, but more other than

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Speaker 1: that rate, sometimes it's hard to get in what the

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Speaker 1: murder victim said. Yeah, this is a classic law school

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Speaker 1: what is hearsay discussion? Hearsay, of course, as a statement

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Speaker 1: made by somebody who's not going to come to court

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Speaker 1: and therefore can't be cross examined by in this case,

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Speaker 1: the criminal defendant, who has constitutional rights to face their

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Speaker 1: accuser and have a thorough, in sifting cross examination of

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Speaker 1: the person that made such a statement. There are many

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Speaker 1: exceptions to the hearsay rule, and you've given several of them.

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Speaker 1: The dying declaration. Why because on a dying declaration the

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Speaker 1: theory of law is on your deathbed, you're not really

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Speaker 1: thinking about lying. Well the last you're right? What about

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Speaker 1: this statement? Ray? What about this? Susan Burman allegedly told

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Speaker 1: a lot of her friends I just won that the

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Speaker 1: real estate tycoon Robert Durst had admitted to her he

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Speaker 1: killed Kathleen Kathy Durst, who was, as you know, a

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Speaker 1: medical student when she just vanished into thin air. She's

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Speaker 1: never been seen again. Her body has never been found.

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Speaker 1: She was officially declared dead. Just recently. She told other friends,

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Speaker 1: including a Saturday Night Live cast member Lorraine Newman, that

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Speaker 1: she was the one that provided alibis for her good

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Speaker 1: friend Robert Durst. You don't think he wanted her a dead.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me to you, Robin will Lensky

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Speaker 1: about matching handwriting in green ink? Well, to me, the

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Speaker 1: most compelling evidence in the Susan Burman case, the most

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Speaker 1: interesting nugget to me is after her murder, there was

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Speaker 1: a letter they call it the cadaver letter, that was

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Speaker 1: sent to the police department in Beverly Hills. And the

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Speaker 1: word Beverly is spelled incorrectly e V E R L

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Speaker 1: E y on the envelope. And then investigators found in

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Speaker 1: Burman's house letters that Durst also used to send to

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Speaker 1: Susan where where from wherever he was from, and Beverly

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Speaker 1: is also spelled incorrectly. The handwriting is identical. Nancy, Okay,

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Speaker 1: hold on, this reminds me Karen Smith. You're the forensics

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Speaker 1: expert of a bank robbery. I tried many years ago,

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Speaker 1: my first bank robbery prosecution. And Karen Smith, the perp wrote,

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Speaker 1: and my children that love to hear this story, don't

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Speaker 1: touch the alama apostrophe. This is a Roby translation. Don't

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Speaker 1: touch the alarm. This is a robbery. And he had

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Speaker 1: obviously heard about punctuation, but didn't really know what it was,

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Speaker 1: so throughout the don't touch the alram this is a roby.

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Speaker 1: There were apostrophes and commas and periods just all through it.

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Speaker 1: And it's a long story, but I found a witness

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Speaker 1: in the Fulton County Jail that had been his roommate.

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Speaker 1: By the time I got him to give a handwriting sample,

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Speaker 1: he did the same thing. He was dyslexic. Don't touch

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Speaker 1: the al ram. This is a roby. He would reverse

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Speaker 1: letters and he sprinkled punctuation marks all the way through

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Speaker 1: his handwriting sample, even writing my name is X. So

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Speaker 1: what she's saying about repeatedly misspelling the same word in

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Speaker 1: the same way and handwriting analysis, that is a science now,

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Speaker 1: not just an art. Karen Smith, Absolutely, it's a science

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Speaker 1: question documented palysis is going to be really important in

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Speaker 1: this trial. And it's not just the misspelling, although that

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Speaker 1: is very compelling, especially putting an E before the yon, Beverly.

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Speaker 1: It's also going to deal with the type of ink,

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Speaker 1: as you've indicated, it's green ink that's really super unusual.

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Speaker 1: Also the pressure, the slant, the size, the way the

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Speaker 1: letters are shaped. They can do comparisons almost like a fingerprint,

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Speaker 1: and they can show that the handwriting is either included, excluded,

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Speaker 1: or cannot be determined. Those are the three determinations that

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Speaker 1: question document examiners make. And in this case, if it's included,

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Speaker 1: he's going to have to explain that, Oh no, it's

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Speaker 1: not Santa, it's Nancy Grace. Are you trying to find

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Speaker 1: so critical and the information so powerful and important. I

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340
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347
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Durst was already serving a seven year

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Speaker 1: prison term for a weapon's charge out of Louisiana when

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00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: he was moved to La to face the Burman murder.

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Speaker 1: Chart years earlier, he to fine in Harris County for

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Speaker 1: urinating on candy at a CBS in Rice Village. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's just stop right there. To Gary Greenberg, co author

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Speaker 1: of Sex and the Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with

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Speaker 1: Robert Durst, What did I just hear? This is a guy,

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Speaker 1: an heir to a real estate fortune, millions and millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars at his disposal, Gary Greenberg, How did he

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Speaker 1: end up dressed like a woman in a convenience store?

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Speaker 1: Did I just hear urinating on candy? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You know, the guy is very strange and has done

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Speaker 1: a lot of strange things in his time. I think

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Speaker 1: it's pretty remarkable that he actually confessed to shooting and

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Speaker 1: dismembering his neighbor Mars Black and got off basically on

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Speaker 1: a tampering with evidence charge. So it's hard to believe

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Speaker 1: that he'll be convicted for Berman's murder too. I hope

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Speaker 1: he is, because I believe he's guilty, And in fact,

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Speaker 1: William Steele says at one point they had a meeting

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Speaker 1: in Manalapan where Durst tried to get still to either

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Speaker 1: kill Burman or to arrange the habit killed. Isn't it

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Speaker 1: another coincidence? To Gary Greenberg, who author of Sex and

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Speaker 1: the Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with the Robert Durst.

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Speaker 1: I got it on Amazon and read it through Kendall.

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Speaker 1: It's just so much easier for me to do that

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Speaker 1: than carrying around a book, Gary, Your book is largely

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Speaker 1: dedicated to the recollections and the memoir of a friend

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Speaker 1: of yours who spent a lot of time with Robert Durst.

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Speaker 1: Based on what you've learned, why do you believe he

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Speaker 1: is guilty in the murder of Susan berman Well. I

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Speaker 1: like I was just explaining he had a relationship with Durst.

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Speaker 1: Would pay this guy Steal to use his apartment in

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn in the nineteen eighties and early nineties to bring

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Speaker 1: prostitutes over to have fetish and drug fueled sex with them.

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Speaker 1: And some of those prostitutes, he later found out he

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Speaker 1: saw pictures, still saw pictures that Durst had shown him.

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Speaker 1: Some of these prostitutes bound and gagged, potentially some of

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Speaker 1: them even looked dead. This guy Steell wasn't sure whether

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Speaker 1: Durst was actually doing these things or just an eccentric

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Speaker 1: multi millionaire who could afford to states and stuff to

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Speaker 1: shock people. But all along Durst was trying to pull

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Speaker 1: this guy Steel into his demented world, and probably fortunately

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Speaker 1: for Steel, he ended up in prison. He's a jewel

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Speaker 1: thief or was a jewel thief and ended up in prison.

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Speaker 1: But he had a lot of evidence that he had

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Speaker 1: collected over the years. It was times with Durst, including

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Speaker 1: tapes and including a satchel that Durst left with him

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Speaker 1: that had tools of a serial killer trade. It had

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Speaker 1: handcuffs that had restraints, duct tape, even had luminol in

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Speaker 1: a black light, which is used for cleaning up blood

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Speaker 1: in these satchels. Unfortunately, the satchels while Steel was incarcerated

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Speaker 1: or lost and nobody knows where they are, he still

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Speaker 1: believes he might have some tapes. So there might be

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Speaker 1: some tapes around, but whether they would be admissible in

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Speaker 1: quarter or not as nobody knows. Let me ask you

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Speaker 1: about your chapter eleven called an outing with Kathy an

404
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: outing with Kathy. Explain the title to chapter eleven. Why

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Speaker 1: do you call it an outing with Kathy? Oh? One day,

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Speaker 1: Durst comes over to Steele's place with an old, beat

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Speaker 1: up suitcase and he's claiming that Kathy's remains are in

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Speaker 1: the suitcase. Steele was so horrified for this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: he didn't want anything to do with it. He told

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Speaker 1: him to put the case away. But Durst had told Steel, yeah,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I like to take her out. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: the story behind that. You know, what is disturbing on

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Speaker 1: so many levels with what Gary Greenberg is saying, Ray

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Speaker 1: Ju to Chay almost everything that Gary just told us

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Speaker 1: about while I completely believe it that will never come

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Speaker 1: into court. The rules of evidence will stop all of

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Speaker 1: that from coming into court. You know it, I know it,

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Speaker 1: and I hate it, but it's true. The jury will

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Speaker 1: never hear all that. And that's why I'm sure mister

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Speaker 1: Durst is going to trial. His lawyers have gone through

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Speaker 1: this methodically with them about what evidence they believe will

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Speaker 1: come in and what will not come in. And they're good,

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Speaker 1: real good lawyers, and they've got real good assets and researchers.

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Speaker 1: And of course the state is not going to give

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Speaker 1: him a plea bargain that lets him go out at

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00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: age seventy five back on probation. So this is a

427
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: case where it's going to trial. I think it's gonna

428
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: be an exciting trial. I think for want to be

429
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: lawyers or would be young lawyers to watch good prosecutors

430
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: and good criminal defense lawyers battle out these various issues

431
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: of evidence. I think it's fascinating. I'm fascinated by it. Well,

432
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, I hear you, but you sound like you're

433
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: examining a bug or a dead frog in biology class,

434
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: and you're just fascinated by the ins and outcing the

435
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: evidentiary twist. And turns. I hear you, but I don't

436
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: see it like that. I see it as Kathy Durst

437
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: was murdered by Robert Durst. He was rich, influential, and

438
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: Westchester County District attorneys never prosecuted him. Number one Maurice Black,

439
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: seventy year old neighbor was murdered and decapitated. He admitted

440
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: he did it and still walked free. All right, now

441
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: we've got Susan Burman dead. Susan Burman was murdered just

442
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: before she spoke to police. And I noticed in your

443
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: chapter thirteen that you titled Gary Greenberg a normal conversation.

444
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: You start off talking about your friend burying with Durst,

445
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: burying a dog's body parts. But what fascinated me in

446
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: that you talk about bleach in the apartment and the

447
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: black light and luminol being hidden away for Durst, and

448
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: about how he has come up Durst with a perfect plan.

449
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: You talk about a girl that had quote too much

450
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: dirt on Durst. She knew about the girl he Durst

451
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: had killed in Vermont and was making financial demands that

452
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: kept increasing, that there was no end to it. It

453
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: was infuriating Robert Durst that he had made a quote

454
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: as you write, Gary Greenberg, and I'm quoting from your

455
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: chapter thirteen, the perfect plan because she had been cheating

456
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 1: on him and using coke. I assume we're talking about Kathy.

457
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: It would look like someone else may have done it,

458
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: or she ran off with another man. And Durst was

459
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: very proud of himself that his plan had worked out

460
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: so well for so long that she Kathy just vanished

461
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: into thin air, another one of a million unsolved murder mysteries.

462
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: And Durst also explained how Susan Burman helped him with

463
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: cover stories, even posing as Cathy to call in sick

464
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: to medical school. As a matter of fact, what is

465
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: written in Sex and the Serial Killer talking about Robert

466
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: Durst is exactly what California prosecutors are arguing at trial.

467
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: Joining me Robin Willinski, Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter

468
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: Gary Greenberg, author Raymond Judiche, defense attorney, renown forensics expert

469
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: Karen Smith. Karen Smith, the difficulty is right now we're

470
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: trying to go forward to the state is in the

471
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: prosecution for the murder of Susan Burman. Karen, You have

472
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: studied and examined the case so carefully. What evidence do

473
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: they have that Durst murdered his friend Susan Burman because

474
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: she was his cover, and the Kathy Durst murder his wife.

475
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: The forensics is lacking. I'm not gonna lie. You're dealing

476
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: with a single gunshot wound to the back of the head,

477
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: execution execution style. You know, if you have a projectile.

478
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: There may be some stipplings, some powder stippling on her

479
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: head depending on how far the muzzle was away when

480
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: the bullet was fired. And that's it. Defense attorneys have

481
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: said there's no DNA and no finger instant link Robert

482
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: Durst to this crime scene. It's not to say that

483
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: there wasn't forensics, but at this point there's really not

484
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: a lot. They're gonna have to go back and look

485
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: at his movements. They're gonna have to find out where

486
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: he was on what date. I don't know if there

487
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: were any witnesses that may have saw him coming or going,

488
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: maybe in a taxi cab. Who knows at this point,

489
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: but the forensics are going to be difficult for the prosecution,

490
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: that's for sure. Well, we know that there have been

491
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: a series of pre trial hearings Ray Ray jut Chay

492
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: and witnesses are stating that despite her being close friends

493
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: with Durst, it's like being having a tiger by the tail.

494
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: You can't hold on and you can't let go. Either way,

495
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: you're gonna get bit. That she feared him and told

496
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: many of them that if anything ever happened to her,

497
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: he would be responsible. I remember in a murder trial,

498
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: a particular murder trial I tried, and you well remember this, Ray,

499
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: The victim was a piano teacher like my mother, and

500
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: the husband was a millionaire like Durst. And she told

501
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: her friends that she had an emergency key that she

502
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: carried in her pocketbook, and she gave a key to

503
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: cars and homes to her friends in case her husband

504
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: tried to kill her. That I was precluded from bringing

505
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: that into evidence. The jury never heard that, Ray. That's

506
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: what I'm worried about in Susan Burman murder case, that

507
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: the jury will never end that she told here that

508
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: she told so many friends if I end up dead,

509
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: he did it, and sure enough there's no alibi for him.

510
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: At the time of her murder on Christmas Eve, she

511
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: ends up shot execution style in the back of the head.

512
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: Somebody crept up on her she was sitting at her

513
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: home just before she's supposed to speak to the authorities

514
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: about Kathy's murder. I think your fingers on the pulse

515
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: of what the prostitution must do to get a conviction

516
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: in this case, which is to set up the all

517
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: of this quote unquote evidence. Some's going to come in,

518
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: some's not going to come in, to set up how

519
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: Durst had boxed her in, as you said, tiger by

520
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: the tail, where she felt that she had to both

521
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: comply with his needs and his demands, and yet she

522
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: feared for her life. To set that up. So that

523
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: is the motive, that is the plan, the scheme. It's

524
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: going to be swinging for the fences for the prosecution.

525
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: If this case had happened in the last few years,

526
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: we would have cell phone pings and luminoll and blood

527
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: splatter and so much more DNA evidence, where as was

528
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: just pointed out, you know, the science has just become

529
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: so Nancy. I think about some of the cases that

530
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: you tried back in the nineties where it was all

531
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: he said, she said, you were putting. I think actually

532
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: was a little more trial lawyer, and that goes on

533
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: now because now we all rely so much on the

534
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: experts and the science and the folks from the crime lab,

535
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: and a little less personal persuasion by the lawyers. But nonetheless,

536
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: if you those cases have been prosecuted today, they would

537
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: end up in Many of those would end up in

538
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: plea bargains before trial because you would have so much

539
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: evidence that the text messages and the trail of emails

540
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: and videotape from where you can follow a person as

541
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: they literally walked from the tip of Manhattan all the

542
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: way up the Central Park on a thousand different video cameras,

543
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: and I can vouch for that. It's not really high

544
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: tech ray. I will never forget I had taken the

545
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: children to go skating at Rockefeller Center. Okay, when I

546
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: got out of the cab, I immediately realized my cell

547
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: phone with all the Christmas photos were on it, and

548
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: I could track the darn thing. And I'm not paying it.

549
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: I don't have a sting ray from the NYPD. And

550
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: I could see it driving away and we called it,

551
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: and we called it, and we called it. I could

552
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: see exactly where it went all over Manhattan until bam,

553
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: it disappeared, and I nearly died because you know how

554
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: I am about my photo albums of the t ends.

555
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: All right, so yes, and it's not even hard to do.

556
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: Oh what, I would give him my eye teeth to

557
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: have that technology when I was just begging juries to

558
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: blaze getting vicked. You're right, we don't have that. What

559
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: we have, like you said, swinging for the fences are people. Now.

560
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 1: There's one guy, Ray. His name is Nathan Nick Chavin,

561
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: and he was a friend of Durst and Burman and man,

562
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: did he drop a stink bomb in the courtroom for

563
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: the defense anyway? And a preach while hearing he testifies

564
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: under oath, Durst admitted to him after a booze soaked

565
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: dinner in New York that he Durst killed Burman, and

566
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: he said Durst stated, I had to. It was her

567
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 1: and me. I had no choice, all right. So that's

568
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: the way he saw it. But the evidence, man, if

569
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: he really he really covered it up, Ray, it's gonna

570
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: be hard. And what's the cross of that witness, sir?

571
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: Let me get this straight. You were both drunk from

572
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: a booze vest is that right? When you think you

573
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: heard this statement twenty odd years and yeah, it's a

574
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: good case to go to trial on for the defense

575
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: for so many reasons. Now, as our author has pointed out,

576
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, if I was on the defense team, I

577
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: just might give mister Steele a subpoena and bring him

578
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: the court and let him ramble on about these the

579
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: body in the suitcase and we did you ever see it? No?

580
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: And you're an author and you made money off of

581
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: this book. I don't know. I don't know if that

582
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: helps the prosecution or might hinder it. And one last thing, Nancy,

583
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: jurors today, in two thousand and eighteen, we used to

584
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: play well, where's the fingerprint game? And you know that

585
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyers, and you might get a juror says,

586
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: how come there're no fingerprints in a DUI case? But

587
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: nowadays the jurors expect the prosecution to bring forth scientific

588
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: technological evidence. They expect that PowerPoint presentation, and the prosecution

589
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: is going to have to really pick a good jury

590
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: that can focus on, Hey, we don't have all this

591
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: stuff because it wasn't available way back when, and I

592
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: think that's going to be a real challenge. You know what,

593
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: then let's find out what the evidence is, because you're right,

594
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,479
Speaker 1: they want that CSI moment that they see on TV.

595
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: They think that that's real, Robin Willinski, it ain't real,

596
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: all right, That's not the real world what you see

597
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: on TV. But that's what gerrars are expecting. So in

598
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: a nutshell, Robin, what is the evidence in the Susan

599
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: Burman case? To me, it's I think it's very easy

600
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: to connect to Dotson. I do agree that the CSI

601
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: factor is definitely a factor at these trials. We saw

602
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: it in the Casey Anthony trial, where you know, they

603
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: wanted to hear how Casey killed her daughter. In this case, though,

604
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: I think there's a few things that The first is

605
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: the Westchester County District Attorney Janine Pierro had reopened the

606
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: Durst case the disappearance when she first became the DA,

607
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: and she sends her investigators out to California and they

608
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: find Susan Burman. Yeah, and they find her dead. So

609
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: I think that Durst knew about it. The timing is

610
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: very suspicious, and he gets rid of her before she

611
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: tells the whole story. Then you have the cadaver letter. Again,

612
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: this is a letter that the Beverly is spelled incorrectly.

613
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: Letters that Durst sent to Susan over the years also said,

614
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: Beverly spelled incorrectly to me, the smoking gun the CSI

615
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: moment is the green ink. He was very eccentric, Durst.

616
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: He used green ink in this note to the police.

617
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: There were green pens found at all his residences over

618
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: the years. Everyone knew he always wrote in green ink.

619
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: In the Jinks show, the producers show him that the

620
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: copies of the two letters, and he can't even tell

621
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: the difference in his own words, Oh is this one?

622
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: Did you write this one? Did you write that one? No?

623
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: He can't even differentiate because the handwriting is the same.

624
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: So I think that there's there's a lot there's a

625
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: lot of grapes on the vine here, and I think

626
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: that they can't if they connect the dots properly. I mean,

627
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: he definitely, I think did it. Oh and one last thing,

628
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: man say when the police come in, when you shoot

629
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: someone in the back of the head and the body

630
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: slumps over, Well, somebody who cared for this woman took

631
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: the body and put it in a different way, because

632
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: you could see that. You know, when someone touches the

633
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: body afterward and moves it, it's almost like a loving gesture.

634
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: And I think that that's very suspicious If someone was

635
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: coming in there just to kill Susan, bam, steal her watch,

636
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: steal her money, steal her purse and leave. Who's rearranging

637
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: the body in a loving gentle manner? Yeah, you know what,

638
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: A random burglar or robber would not take time to

639
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: stage the scene. That's like statistically proven. Robert Durst, the

640
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: multi millionaire real estate air is accused of shooting Susan

641
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: Burman in the head at her Beverly Hills home Christmas Eve,

642
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: just hours before she was scheduled to speak with the

643
00:39:53,719 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: police about the disappearance of Durst's first wife, Kathy. We

644
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: wait for justice to unfold. Fancy Grace crime story signing

645
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,