WEBVTT - Trump Jury Deliberates & NCAA Settles 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:08.320 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.600 Jurors deliberated for more than four and a half hours 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.600 today in Donald Trump's historic hush money trial without coming 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.840 to a decision on whether the former president falsified his 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.119 company's records to hide a hush money payment to porn 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.840 star Stormy Daniels and influence the twenty sixteen election. Shortly 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.920 after the jurors got the case, Trump repeated his claim 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:33.800 that the case is rigged. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.520 By the JACIC conducting those judges. But we'll see, we'll see. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:42.560 How we do. Deliberations will resume at nine thirty tomorrow morning, 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.720 when the jurors will hear readbacks of testimony they've requested 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.120 about a Trump Tower meeting in August of twenty fifteen 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.840 that prosecutors say was central to a criminal conspiracy to 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:59.200 boost Trump's twenty sixteen presidential campaign. Joining me is criminal 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.400 defense attorney dunk and Levin, a former Manhattan prosecutor. Duncan. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.520 Let's start with the defense case and how the defense 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.880 attorney presented that case. In closing arguments, Todd Bland seemed 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.160 to focus on Michael Cohen almost to the exclusion of 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.080 everything else, calling him the human embodiment of reasonable doubt, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.440 the greatest liar of all time. What did you think 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:22.520 of the defense close? 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:27.560 I thought it was meandering. And they are clearly trying 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.520 to attack the credibility of Michael Cohne, because Michael Cohne 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.240 is the most problematic part of the case for them. 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.800 What Michael Cohne does is take a circumstantial case and 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:40.720 makes it a direct case. And what I mean by 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.440 that is that and the DA called Michael Cohne late 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.560 in its case to really corroborate all these other pieces 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.400 of evidence. At the core of the case are two 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.160 main things. One is that mister Trump falsified business documents. 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.640 He caused the falsification of business documents with the intent 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:03.920 to conceal a conspiracy between Michael Cohne, David Pecker, and 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.840 mister Trump to promote his election by unlawful means. That 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.960 unlawful means was hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougall, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.160 and others. So the DA's office has put in a 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.679 lot of evidence that shows this conspiracy, that shows that 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.600 mister Cohne and mister Trump and the National Inquirer were 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.720 operating together in order to promote the election by unlawful means. 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.520 They put in evidence by David Pecker, who testified that 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.560 this went way beyond catch and kill, that in fact, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.600 the National Choir was really operating as an arm of 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.280 the Trump campaign, that they were the eyes and ears 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.760 of the campaign, that they were looking for stories to 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.840 go out and catch and kill. There was evidence that 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.320 prior to twenty fifteen, when this all started happening, they 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.840 never worked with a presidential candidate, they'd never done anything 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.560 in coordination with a presidential candidate to catch and kill, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.080 and that they were really operating as an arm of 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.560 the campaign. And where catch and kill is not illegal 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.480 one to itself, when they start operating in that way 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.680 as an arm of the campaign, it becomes illegal because 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.160 it's promoting an election by unlawful means. These payments to 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:17.120 women to get their silence. The CIA then called Keith Davidson, 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.720 who was Doormy Daniels attorney, who testified about why this 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.480 was about the election and not about a cover up 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.799 of an affair to try to keep it from millennia. 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.480 This was something that was about the election. Keith Davidson 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.919 testified that these deals were dead. Really he represents Doormy 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.560 Daniels and was trying to get money for her, and 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.920 that this deal was dead. They were trying to kick 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:43.280 it down the road till after the election, and once 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.680 the Access Hollywood tape came out, which was devastating to 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.600 the campaign. They had testimony from Hope Picks about how 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.920 terrible this was for the campaign. There was this increased 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.760 feverish peace from the Trump campaign to try to pay 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.760 off Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall, who it came to 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.640 their attention, we're trying to sell their stories because if 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.960 right on that Heels On the Acts of Hollywood tape, 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:06.920 these two women's stories came out, it would have been 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.400 the nail in the coffin for the Trump campaign, or 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.480 at least they thought so. So. Davidson testified that there 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.080 was this feverish pace to try to get this money 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.200 to Stormy Daniels right after that Access Hollywood tape came 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.560 out because they were trying to keep it from the electorate, 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.960 and Michael Cone called his banker, Gary Farrow, who also 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.359 testified that mister Cone called him with his pass on 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.160 fire to try to get money through this shell company 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:37.160 called the es Central Consultants, LLC, through to Stormy Daniels. 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.040 So they did a very good job putting together this conspiracy, 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.599 and they don't really need Michael Cone's testimony for that 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:45.760 at all. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.599 What about for the falsification of business records. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.200 They also don't need Michael Cone's testimony really for the 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.200 falsification of the business documents, because on their face they 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.719 have this was exhibit thirty five and thirty six in 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.960 the trial. They have who documents, one of which is 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.359 on First Republic Bank letterhead which has Alan Weisselberg's handwriting 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:08.680 on it, showing that this payment one hundred and thirty 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.839 thousand dollars to Stormy Daniels was quote unquote grossed up, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.160 which was doubled for taxes. And what that means is 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.359 that it wasn't legal services to Michael Cohen, as the 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.240 defense says it was, because if it was legal services, 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.400 it wouldn't be grossed up for taxes. It would just 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.279 be a payment. Nobody pays double knowing that the person 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.359 who's receiving the payment has to pay taxes on it. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.160 You pay somebody and they have to pay taxes on it. Well, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.039 if it's a reimbursement, you would double it so that 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.680 he would say it's income, and the books and records 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.160 would show what was income, and he would pay taxes 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:44.760 on it. And he's still wind up with the same 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.800 amount of one hundred and thirty thousand dollars for reimbursement. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.920 So then where does the prosecution need Michael Cohen, if 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:53.440 at all? 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.520 So where does Michael Cohes fit into all of this? Well, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.360 he's a critical witness because all of that is circumstantial 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.400 evidence that puts Donald Trump at the center of it. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:06.680 And Michael Cohen basically says on the stand he authorized it, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.600 he approved it. And that's what turns this case from 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.360 a circumstantial case where there's a lot of evidence of 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.160 other people saying things about, well, how is it possible 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.440 that mister Trump was signing these thirty five thousand dollars checks? 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.880 And that magic number of thirty five thousand dollars comes 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.159 from this grossed up figure of one hundred and thirty 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.719 thousand times two, and there's some other amounts of money 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.800 that are added into that. Divided by twelve for a 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.599 monthly payment, it comes to thirty five thousand. There's no 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.960 evidence of any retainer agreement between Michael Cohne and mister 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.240 Trump or the Trump organization. There's no invoices, and in fact, 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.720 there's some evidence that came in a trial that mister 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.440 Cohn actually emailed mister Weieselberg and said how much money 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.919 am I supposed to be billing for every month? Again, 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:55.360 which is not something. 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.560 A lawyer would normally say. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.320 All of this is evidence that does not require Michael 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.919 Cohne's testimony at all, except that Michael Cohne takes it 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.960 from a case that's circumstantial to a case that's very strong, 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.080 because he says, yeah, I was in the room with 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.760 President Trump then when he was in the Oval office, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.240 and he approved all of this. He approved the repayment scheme. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.320 But the defense passd you destroy Michael Cohne. It has 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.600 to destroy Michael Cohene, And that's what they tried to 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.640 do in their closing statement. And I think it was 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.560 neandering and they're trying to poke holes in it, and 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.640 that I don't think it was effective in actually getting 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.160 to the heart of the matter, which is whether mister 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.840 Trump knew of this repayment scheme and did it in 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.000 order to cover up this promotion of his election by 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:42.760 unlawful meets. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:47.280 So the defense was just poking holes in the prosecution's case. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.240 And Michael Cohen, do you think it makes a difference 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.200 that he didn't cover whole picks, He didn't talk about 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.600 some of the important witnesses, He didn't cover what you 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:00.440 just mentioned that piece of paper with Alan Weiselberg's ublings 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.520 on it. I mean, do you think it matters that 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:03.400 he didn't do that? 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.720 It matters tremendously because then the prosecution gets up and 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.360 gave a four and a half hour closing that pointed 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.000 out to the jury all of the things that the 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.360 defense didn't actually address. You're right, he did not address 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.800 whole picks. He did not address the tape recorded phone 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.520 call that mister Cohne made with mister Trump was then 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.720 President Trump in the Oval office. He didn't address the 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.720 fact that the NDA used secret names, that the checks 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.320 that were sent for thirty five thousand dollars were sent 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:36.640 from mister Trump's personal accounts. The checks were physically sent 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.520 not to the White House, but secretly to Keith Schiller, 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.320 who was his body man, who was not in the 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.120 White House, was sent to his personal residence of off 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.200 site in Washington, DC and given to the then president 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.840 to sign in the Oval office. He didn't address a 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.920 lot of the context behind the call. So, for example, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.199 there's a call that was made that the defense made 0:08:58.240 --> 0:08:59.840 a big deal out of, and he did on closing 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.400 the well on October twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, which is 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.080 a phone call from mister Cohne, and mister Cone testified 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.559 to this on direct examination. There's a phone call from 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.199 mister Cone to Keith Schiller, who's mister Trump's body man, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.480 and mister Cone said, yeah, mister Schiller was with mister Trump, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.280 and that was a phone call that I made about 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.640 Stormy Daniel Well. The defense and cross examination brought out 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.520 a number of text messages that they were able to 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.520 find immediately preceding that phone call, in which mister Cone 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.440 said to mister Schiller, there's some fourteen year old girl 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.400 who's harassing me, and mister Shiller writes back, call me. Well. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.839 The defense made a huge deal about that on cross 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.120 examination in the closing argument as well, saying that was 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.640 a lie, that was perjury. You called him back because 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.000 you were talking about that fourteen year old girl. You 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.040 were not talking about Stormy Daniels and you are lying, 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.360 and they can do that, and he makes a big 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.000 stink about it on his cross examination, but the prosecution 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.320 stood up and did what it did on redirect examination 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.079 by saying, you're not looking at the context of all 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.480 of this. You're not focusing on the fact that immediately 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.360 following that phone call on October twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.720 there are thirty frantic messages over the messaging app called 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.400 Signal between you and mister Pecker at the National Inquirer 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.960 talking about Stormy Daniels. And it does not address the 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.880 fact that on the next day, on October twenty fifth, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.240 twenty sixteen, there is a text message from Dylan Howard 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.440 over at the National in Choir to you to mister 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.640 Cohane that says, we better get on the same page 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.800 about this or we're going to look really bad. It 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.400 doesn't address the fact that on the following day there 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.000 was the wire payment to Stormy Daniels and the day 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.760 after that the NBA was signed. So there is context 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.760 about this, and so the defense is doing what it 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.839 needs to do, what it has to do, but ultimately 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.120 is not particularly effective in trying to cherry pick out 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.320 all of the little pieces of the case that sound 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.200 bad and try to confuse the jury. That is what 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.000 the defense needs to do, and you sort of can 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.520 use the jury, whereas the prosecution needs to tell a 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.920 narrative that starts at the beginning and goes to the 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.360 end and tells a story. And so that is really 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.000 the disconnect between what the defense is trying to do 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.120 and what the prosecution did in this closure. 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.760 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lanchew, I'll continue this 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.800 conversation with Duncan Levin and we'll talk about why the 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:23.040 judge got angry during the closing arguments yesterday, as well 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.959 as just what the prosecution has to prove for a conviction. Here, 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.800 I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. The Manhattan 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.280 jury weighing Donald Trump's hush money case ended its first 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:38.400 day of deliberations after asking to review testimony about a 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.000 Trump Tower meeting that prosecutors say was central to a 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:47.679 criminal conspiracy to boost his twenty sixteen presidential campaign. This afternoon, 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.640 the jury sent the judge a note asking for testimony 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.920 about an August twenty fifteen meeting at Trump Tower. Attended 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.440 by Trump, David Pecker, the publisher of The National Inquirer, 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:03.000 and Michael Cohen, Trump's former attorney and fixer turned star. 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:07.160 Prosecution witness. Pecker had testified that he agreed then to 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.599 help Trump's campaign by praising him in print, punishing his rivals, 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.480 and buying and burying accounts of his extramarital affairs. The 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.959 jury also asked to hear testimony about how Pecker's company 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.959 paid former Playboy playmate Karen McDougall one hundred and fifty 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.439 thousand dollars in twenty sixteen to buy and bury her 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.120 account of an affair with Trump a decade earlier. It's 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.600 hard to know exactly what the jurors are looking for, 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.719 but the request may suggest they are working through the 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:40.040 chronology laid out by the prosecutors in their case. Pecker 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.000 was the prosecution's first witness, and he served as a 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.160 sort of narrator for prosecutors in detailing the alleged scheme. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.160 In a second note, the jurors asked to hear Judge 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.679 Mershon's instructions again, but before jurors could hear the testimony 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.600 or the judge's instructions again, Mershawn dismissed the panel for 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.120 the day, saying deliberate rations will resume tomorrow morning at 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.000 nine point thirty. I've been talking to criminal defense attorney 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.480 Duncan Levin, a former Manhattan prosecutor. One thing during closing 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.200 arguments that really angered the judge was when the defense 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.880 attorney Todd Blanche mentioned punishment in his closing arguments, said, 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:20.960 you don't want to send the former president or the 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.199 presidency refers to him to jail. Everyone knows who's tried 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.720 a case, so who's been in court that that's not allowed. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.560 So Blanche must have known it. Do you think it 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:35.880 backfired on him because the instruction, the curative instruction, actually 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.439 told the jury, you know, even if he's found guilty, 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.720 Trump doesn't necessarily have to get prison time. 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.440 It's something that is a basic ground rule for lawyers 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.760 to know not to mention certain things. They're not to 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.960 argue impermissible things to the jury. This is plainly impermissible. 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:55.920 Prosecution or defense knows that you can't do that, it's impermissible. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.400 The judge was right to fly off the handle with it. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.040 And you know, it's one of these things that is 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.960 hard to reconcile as a fiction of what the jury 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.880 knows or doesn't know. I mean, we're to presume that 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.400 this jury is not reading any newspapers, is not aware 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.600 of the coverage of it, is not thinking about the 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.800 ramifications to them of a guilty verdict, or whether they're 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.600 doing something unprecedented in convicting and or some point of punishment, 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.400 whether it's jail or not for the former president of 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.680 the United States. These are things that you know, are 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.920 legal fictions. And then there's this other fiction of a 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:35.160 curative instruction or striking testimony in front of the jury. 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.080 It's sort of hard to stuff the genie back into 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.200 the bottle. You know, they hear it, they get a 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.960 curative instruction, but then they're thinking, because they're human, they're like, oh, well, 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.280 we may be sending the former president to jail. So 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:50.280 I think Blanche was absolutely out of bounds by mentioning it. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.000 He clearly knew he shouldn't. The judge was right to 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.680 fly off the handle with him. And as to what 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.960 damage it did or didn't do, it's going to be 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:00.280 devilutely impossible to help. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.560 And then on the other side, the prosecutors said, there's 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.720 no special standard for Donald Trump. Donald Trump can't shoot 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.480 someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it, which 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.200 caused an objection which was sustained. But he got it in. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.040 It's the same thing, right, you can't unring the bell, right. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.440 I mean, this is a famous line of Donald Trump 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.640 that he could shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.760 Avenue and get away with it. And it's a statement 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.360 that is not an evidence. There are rules of evidence. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.800 Prosecution is held to a higher standard. They shouldn't have 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:37.920 mentioned it. This is the objection was sustained. It's a 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:43.000 minor point, I suppose, because it's not well, there's a 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:47.960 distinction to be made between argument that is impermissible because 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:55.040 it wrongly has the jury doing something that is beyond 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.920 the scope of what it's supposed to do, like considering punishment. 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.480 Their job is to consider the facts of it, and 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.720 mentioning something that where there are no facts and evidence. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.360 It's sort of, in a way, a more minor transgression. 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.440 But that was an objection that was sustained, and you're right, 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:10.440 so the jury hears it. 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:11.520 What are they going to do with it? 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.040 You know? For those who know the reference, they know 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:15.880 the reference. For those that don't. They don't, but it's 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.000 really more a statement of what is an evidence and 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:20.040 what is not in evidence. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.120 They probably have to be living in a cave for 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.000 the last eight years if they didn't know that. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:26.920 That's right, And that's part of the fiction of this case. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.200 There's so much, you know, they're supposed to have evidence 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.640 in front of them during the trial that they can consider, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.360 and they're not supposed to consider anything outside of what 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.640 happened during the last few weeks of this trial. And 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.440 so that's why the DA introduced evidence, for example, from 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.240 mister Trump's books showing that he was a penny pincher 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.520 and that he negotiated everything down to the paper clip, 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.320 because that gets to their point that he wouldn't just 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.080 be signing thirty five thousand dollars checks for Michael Cohene 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.960 without knowing what that was for. But the jurors may 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.960 also be away or just from reading the newspapers that 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.680 their Trump is someone who famously doesn't pay his lawyers. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.240 That didn't come into evidence, but it might be something 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.760 they know in the back of their mind that he's 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.080 somebody who has, you know, never paid his lawyers or 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.560 paid vendors, which has been widely reported on, and so 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.879 that is something that they may be using in the 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.760 back of their head, but they're not supposed to bring 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.840 it into the deliberation room because it's not evidence in 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:24.360 the trial that wasn't presented. 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:25.840 They didn't call. 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.199 Lawyers who got diffed on their legal invoices. So you know, 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.520 I think that there's this fiction about what a jury 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.960 knows and doesn't know, but they're really only supposed to 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.880 consider evidence that came in that was properly admitted into evidence, 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:40.760 and nothing else. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.399 Do you think the prosecution did enough in marshaling the 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.479 evidence and presenting its case in closing arguments? 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.560 Yeah, undoubtedly, Yes, every element of the crime was put in. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.080 I mean there's ample evidence if you credit Michael Cone, 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.360 for sure. Even without crediting Michael Cone, I think there's 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.760 ample evidence that mister Trump was aware of and approved 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.880 the repayment scheme to Michael Cone, that was a lie 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:07.800 on the books and records, that this was for legal 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.280 services to Michael Cone, that it was a cover up 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.520 of payments to Storm mc daniels and Karen McDougall and others, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.879 That there was a conspiracy between David Pecker and the 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.359 National inquirer and Michael Cone to promote mister Trump's election 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.800 by unlawful means, now lawful means for the hush money 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:29.400 payments that violated federal campaign finance laws. Think that everything 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.160 is there. The only reason he will be acquitted or 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.640 a hung jury is if there's a juror too for 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.800 other reasons other than the evidence, decides not to convict them. 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.639 I think the evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt that 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.400 he is guilty of the crimes. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.959 And so will you explain what the jurors have to 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:52.240 find in order to convict Trump the elements of the crime. 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.880 Sure, In the first instance, they have to find that 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.640 mister Trump one caused the filing of false business records 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.800 and two that he did so with the intent to 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:08.320 conceal another crime. And the other crime is a violation 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.840 of New York state election law and the statute that 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.959 makes it illegal to conspire to promote an election by 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.400 unlawful means. And the judge said that the jury can 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.680 differ on what the unlawful means was. So they all 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.200 have to agree that mister Trump caused the filing of 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.200 false business records. They all have to agree that mister 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.119 Trump did so with the intent to promote his election 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.600 by unlawful means, and that the jurors can disagree with 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.000 what the unlawful means were, but that's it. That's what 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:38.639 they have to find. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.879 So is it an advantage to the prosecution that the 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.359 judge instructed the jury that they don't have to be 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.160 unanimous as to the unlawful means and they can each 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.760 decide whether it was state election law, federal election law, 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.840 or the falsification of other business records. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.719 Well, there's a narrative out there, particularly in more conservative 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.919 media that I have been seeing, where there's been outrage 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.359 that the jurors don't need to be unanimous on what 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.600 the underlying crime is. Just to be more specific, they 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.679 do need to be unanimous on what the underlying crime is, 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.200 which is a conspiracy to promote his election by unlawful means. 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.800 It's another step down about it's a technical question about 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.800 what the unlawful means were. So was it the payment 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.240 to Stormy Daniels, wasn't the payment to Karen McDougal. Was 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.919 it in furtherance of a tax crime? But they do 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.800 need to be unanimous on the bump up crime, which 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.760 is this violation of New York State election law. There 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.560 is certainly an advantage to the prosecution from that jury instruction, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.960 But there are other jury instructions which really did not 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.119 go the prosecution's way. For example, they were arguing for 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:46.280 an expansive definition of the word cause that mister Trump 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.359 caused the filing of false business records. The statute doesn't 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.919 lay out what it means to cause somebody to file 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.560 false business records, and the prosecution was arguing that should 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.960 be expansively read to say that it was reasonably foreseeable 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.399 from his actions that the records would be filed, and 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:05.639 the defense objected to it. And it looks like the 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:10.280 judge gives the instruction on cause just being the standard 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.800 definition of it, which is to make somebody do something, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.240 because there's really no evidence that mister Trump picked up 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.480 the phone and said to mister Cohne, oh, you should 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.840 file these false business records. It's more nebulous than that. 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.320 And so there are some through instructions that went to 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.480 prosecution's way, and there are some that went to defense life. 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.160 Is there anything in particular in the prosecution's case, putting 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.320 aside the fact that there may be a juror who 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.280 is a hidden Trump supporter with an agenda. Is there 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.879 anything that might confuse the jury or hang the jury? 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.639 I mean, I think the weakest part of the prosecution's 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.200