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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Jurors deliberated for more than four and a half hours

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Speaker 1: today in Donald Trump's historic hush money trial without coming

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Speaker 1: to a decision on whether the former president falsified his

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Speaker 1: company's records to hide a hush money payment to porn

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Speaker 1: star Stormy Daniels and influence the twenty sixteen election. Shortly

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Speaker 1: after the jurors got the case, Trump repeated his claim

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Speaker 1: that the case is rigged.

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Speaker 2: By the JACIC conducting those judges. But we'll see, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: How we do. Deliberations will resume at nine thirty tomorrow morning,

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Speaker 1: when the jurors will hear readbacks of testimony they've requested

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Speaker 1: about a Trump Tower meeting in August of twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: that prosecutors say was central to a criminal conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: boost Trump's twenty sixteen presidential campaign. Joining me is criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney dunk and Levin, a former Manhattan prosecutor. Duncan.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the defense case and how the defense

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Speaker 1: attorney presented that case. In closing arguments, Todd Bland seemed

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Speaker 1: to focus on Michael Cohen almost to the exclusion of

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Speaker 1: everything else, calling him the human embodiment of reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 1: the greatest liar of all time. What did you think

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Speaker 1: of the defense close?

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Speaker 3: I thought it was meandering. And they are clearly trying

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Speaker 3: to attack the credibility of Michael Cohne, because Michael Cohne

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Speaker 3: is the most problematic part of the case for them.

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Speaker 3: What Michael Cohne does is take a circumstantial case and

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Speaker 3: makes it a direct case. And what I mean by

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Speaker 3: that is that and the DA called Michael Cohne late

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Speaker 3: in its case to really corroborate all these other pieces

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Speaker 3: of evidence. At the core of the case are two

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Speaker 3: main things. One is that mister Trump falsified business documents.

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Speaker 3: He caused the falsification of business documents with the intent

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Speaker 3: to conceal a conspiracy between Michael Cohne, David Pecker, and

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Speaker 3: mister Trump to promote his election by unlawful means. That

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Speaker 3: unlawful means was hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougall,

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Speaker 3: and others. So the DA's office has put in a

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Speaker 3: lot of evidence that shows this conspiracy, that shows that

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Speaker 3: mister Cohne and mister Trump and the National Inquirer were

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Speaker 3: operating together in order to promote the election by unlawful means.

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Speaker 3: They put in evidence by David Pecker, who testified that

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Speaker 3: this went way beyond catch and kill, that in fact,

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Speaker 3: the National Choir was really operating as an arm of

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Speaker 3: the Trump campaign, that they were the eyes and ears

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Speaker 3: of the campaign, that they were looking for stories to

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Speaker 3: go out and catch and kill. There was evidence that

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Speaker 3: prior to twenty fifteen, when this all started happening, they

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Speaker 3: never worked with a presidential candidate, they'd never done anything

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Speaker 3: in coordination with a presidential candidate to catch and kill,

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Speaker 3: and that they were really operating as an arm of

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Speaker 3: the campaign. And where catch and kill is not illegal

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Speaker 3: one to itself, when they start operating in that way

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Speaker 3: as an arm of the campaign, it becomes illegal because

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Speaker 3: it's promoting an election by unlawful means. These payments to

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Speaker 3: women to get their silence. The CIA then called Keith Davidson,

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Speaker 3: who was Doormy Daniels attorney, who testified about why this

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Speaker 3: was about the election and not about a cover up

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Speaker 3: of an affair to try to keep it from millennia.

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Speaker 3: This was something that was about the election. Keith Davidson

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Speaker 3: testified that these deals were dead. Really he represents Doormy

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Speaker 3: Daniels and was trying to get money for her, and

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Speaker 3: that this deal was dead. They were trying to kick

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Speaker 3: it down the road till after the election, and once

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Speaker 3: the Access Hollywood tape came out, which was devastating to

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Speaker 3: the campaign. They had testimony from Hope Picks about how

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Speaker 3: terrible this was for the campaign. There was this increased

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Speaker 3: feverish peace from the Trump campaign to try to pay

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Speaker 3: off Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall, who it came to

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Speaker 3: their attention, we're trying to sell their stories because if

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Speaker 3: right on that Heels On the Acts of Hollywood tape,

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Speaker 3: these two women's stories came out, it would have been

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Speaker 3: the nail in the coffin for the Trump campaign, or

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Speaker 3: at least they thought so. So. Davidson testified that there

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Speaker 3: was this feverish pace to try to get this money

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Speaker 3: to Stormy Daniels right after that Access Hollywood tape came

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Speaker 3: out because they were trying to keep it from the electorate,

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Speaker 3: and Michael Cone called his banker, Gary Farrow, who also

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Speaker 3: testified that mister Cone called him with his pass on

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Speaker 3: fire to try to get money through this shell company

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Speaker 3: called the es Central Consultants, LLC, through to Stormy Daniels.

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Speaker 3: So they did a very good job putting together this conspiracy,

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Speaker 3: and they don't really need Michael Cone's testimony for that

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 1: What about for the falsification of business records.

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Speaker 3: They also don't need Michael Cone's testimony really for the

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Speaker 3: falsification of the business documents, because on their face they

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Speaker 3: have this was exhibit thirty five and thirty six in

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Speaker 3: the trial. They have who documents, one of which is

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Speaker 3: on First Republic Bank letterhead which has Alan Weisselberg's handwriting

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Speaker 3: on it, showing that this payment one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars to Stormy Daniels was quote unquote grossed up,

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Speaker 3: which was doubled for taxes. And what that means is

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Speaker 3: that it wasn't legal services to Michael Cohen, as the

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Speaker 3: defense says it was, because if it was legal services,

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't be grossed up for taxes. It would just

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Speaker 3: be a payment. Nobody pays double knowing that the person

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Speaker 3: who's receiving the payment has to pay taxes on it.

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Speaker 3: You pay somebody and they have to pay taxes on it. Well,

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Speaker 3: if it's a reimbursement, you would double it so that

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Speaker 3: he would say it's income, and the books and records

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Speaker 3: would show what was income, and he would pay taxes

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Speaker 3: on it. And he's still wind up with the same

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Speaker 3: amount of one hundred and thirty thousand dollars for reimbursement.

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Speaker 1: So then where does the prosecution need Michael Cohen, if

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Speaker 1: at all?

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Speaker 3: So where does Michael Cohes fit into all of this? Well,

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Speaker 3: he's a critical witness because all of that is circumstantial

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Speaker 3: evidence that puts Donald Trump at the center of it.

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Speaker 3: And Michael Cohen basically says on the stand he authorized it,

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Speaker 3: he approved it. And that's what turns this case from

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Speaker 3: a circumstantial case where there's a lot of evidence of

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Speaker 3: other people saying things about, well, how is it possible

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Speaker 3: that mister Trump was signing these thirty five thousand dollars checks?

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Speaker 3: And that magic number of thirty five thousand dollars comes

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Speaker 3: from this grossed up figure of one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 3: thousand times two, and there's some other amounts of money

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Speaker 3: that are added into that. Divided by twelve for a

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Speaker 3: monthly payment, it comes to thirty five thousand. There's no

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Speaker 3: evidence of any retainer agreement between Michael Cohne and mister

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Speaker 3: Trump or the Trump organization. There's no invoices, and in fact,

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Speaker 3: there's some evidence that came in a trial that mister

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Speaker 3: Cohn actually emailed mister Weieselberg and said how much money

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Speaker 3: am I supposed to be billing for every month? Again,

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Speaker 3: which is not something.

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Speaker 2: A lawyer would normally say.

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Speaker 3: All of this is evidence that does not require Michael

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Speaker 3: Cohne's testimony at all, except that Michael Cohne takes it

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Speaker 3: from a case that's circumstantial to a case that's very strong,

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Speaker 3: because he says, yeah, I was in the room with

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Speaker 3: President Trump then when he was in the Oval office,

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Speaker 3: and he approved all of this. He approved the repayment scheme.

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Speaker 3: But the defense passd you destroy Michael Cohne. It has

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Speaker 3: to destroy Michael Cohene, And that's what they tried to

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Speaker 3: do in their closing statement. And I think it was

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Speaker 3: neandering and they're trying to poke holes in it, and

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Speaker 3: that I don't think it was effective in actually getting

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Speaker 3: to the heart of the matter, which is whether mister

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Speaker 3: Trump knew of this repayment scheme and did it in

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Speaker 3: order to cover up this promotion of his election by

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Speaker 3: unlawful meets.

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Speaker 1: So the defense was just poking holes in the prosecution's case.

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Speaker 1: And Michael Cohen, do you think it makes a difference

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Speaker 1: that he didn't cover whole picks, He didn't talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the important witnesses, He didn't cover what you

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Speaker 1: just mentioned that piece of paper with Alan Weiselberg's ublings

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Speaker 1: on it. I mean, do you think it matters that

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Speaker 1: he didn't do that?

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Speaker 3: It matters tremendously because then the prosecution gets up and

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Speaker 3: gave a four and a half hour closing that pointed

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Speaker 3: out to the jury all of the things that the

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Speaker 3: defense didn't actually address. You're right, he did not address

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Speaker 3: whole picks. He did not address the tape recorded phone

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Speaker 3: call that mister Cohne made with mister Trump was then

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Speaker 3: President Trump in the Oval office. He didn't address the

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Speaker 3: fact that the NDA used secret names, that the checks

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Speaker 3: that were sent for thirty five thousand dollars were sent

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Speaker 3: from mister Trump's personal accounts. The checks were physically sent

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Speaker 3: not to the White House, but secretly to Keith Schiller,

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Speaker 3: who was his body man, who was not in the

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Speaker 3: White House, was sent to his personal residence of off

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Speaker 3: site in Washington, DC and given to the then president

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Speaker 3: to sign in the Oval office. He didn't address a

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Speaker 3: lot of the context behind the call. So, for example,

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Speaker 3: there's a call that was made that the defense made

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Speaker 3: a big deal out of, and he did on closing

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Speaker 3: the well on October twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, which is

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Speaker 3: a phone call from mister Cohne, and mister Cone testified

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Speaker 3: to this on direct examination. There's a phone call from

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Speaker 3: mister Cone to Keith Schiller, who's mister Trump's body man,

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Speaker 3: and mister Cone said, yeah, mister Schiller was with mister Trump,

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Speaker 3: and that was a phone call that I made about

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Speaker 3: Stormy Daniel Well. The defense and cross examination brought out

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Speaker 3: a number of text messages that they were able to

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Speaker 3: find immediately preceding that phone call, in which mister Cone

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Speaker 3: said to mister Schiller, there's some fourteen year old girl

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Speaker 3: who's harassing me, and mister Shiller writes back, call me. Well.

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Speaker 3: The defense made a huge deal about that on cross

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Speaker 3: examination in the closing argument as well, saying that was

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Speaker 3: a lie, that was perjury. You called him back because

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Speaker 3: you were talking about that fourteen year old girl. You

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Speaker 3: were not talking about Stormy Daniels and you are lying,

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Speaker 3: and they can do that, and he makes a big

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Speaker 3: stink about it on his cross examination, but the prosecution

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Speaker 3: stood up and did what it did on redirect examination

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Speaker 3: by saying, you're not looking at the context of all

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Speaker 3: of this. You're not focusing on the fact that immediately

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Speaker 3: following that phone call on October twenty fourth, twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: there are thirty frantic messages over the messaging app called

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Speaker 3: Signal between you and mister Pecker at the National Inquirer

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Speaker 3: talking about Stormy Daniels. And it does not address the

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Speaker 3: fact that on the next day, on October twenty fifth,

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, there is a text message from Dylan Howard

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Speaker 3: over at the National in Choir to you to mister

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Speaker 3: Cohane that says, we better get on the same page

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Speaker 3: about this or we're going to look really bad. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't address the fact that on the following day there

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Speaker 3: was the wire payment to Stormy Daniels and the day

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Speaker 3: after that the NBA was signed. So there is context

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Speaker 3: about this, and so the defense is doing what it

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Speaker 3: needs to do, what it has to do, but ultimately

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Speaker 3: is not particularly effective in trying to cherry pick out

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Speaker 3: all of the little pieces of the case that sound

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Speaker 3: bad and try to confuse the jury. That is what

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Speaker 3: the defense needs to do, and you sort of can

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Speaker 3: use the jury, whereas the prosecution needs to tell a

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Speaker 3: narrative that starts at the beginning and goes to the

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Speaker 3: end and tells a story. And so that is really

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Speaker 3: the disconnect between what the defense is trying to do

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Speaker 3: and what the prosecution did in this closure.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lanchew, I'll continue this

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Speaker 1: conversation with Duncan Levin and we'll talk about why the

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Speaker 1: judge got angry during the closing arguments yesterday, as well

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Speaker 1: as just what the prosecution has to prove for a conviction. Here,

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Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. The Manhattan

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Speaker 1: jury weighing Donald Trump's hush money case ended its first

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Speaker 1: day of deliberations after asking to review testimony about a

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Speaker 1: Trump Tower meeting that prosecutors say was central to a

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Speaker 1: criminal conspiracy to boost his twenty sixteen presidential campaign. This afternoon,

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Speaker 1: the jury sent the judge a note asking for testimony

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Speaker 1: about an August twenty fifteen meeting at Trump Tower. Attended

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Speaker 1: by Trump, David Pecker, the publisher of The National Inquirer,

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Speaker 1: and Michael Cohen, Trump's former attorney and fixer turned star.

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Speaker 1: Prosecution witness. Pecker had testified that he agreed then to

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Speaker 1: help Trump's campaign by praising him in print, punishing his rivals,

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Speaker 1: and buying and burying accounts of his extramarital affairs. The

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Speaker 1: jury also asked to hear testimony about how Pecker's company

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Speaker 1: paid former Playboy playmate Karen McDougall one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars in twenty sixteen to buy and bury her

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Speaker 1: account of an affair with Trump a decade earlier. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to know exactly what the jurors are looking for,

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Speaker 1: but the request may suggest they are working through the

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Speaker 1: chronology laid out by the prosecutors in their case. Pecker

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Speaker 1: was the prosecution's first witness, and he served as a

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Speaker 1: sort of narrator for prosecutors in detailing the alleged scheme.

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Speaker 1: In a second note, the jurors asked to hear Judge

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Speaker 1: Mershon's instructions again, but before jurors could hear the testimony

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Speaker 1: or the judge's instructions again, Mershawn dismissed the panel for

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Speaker 1: the day, saying deliberate rations will resume tomorrow morning at

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Speaker 1: nine point thirty. I've been talking to criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: Duncan Levin, a former Manhattan prosecutor. One thing during closing

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Speaker 1: arguments that really angered the judge was when the defense

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Speaker 1: attorney Todd Blanche mentioned punishment in his closing arguments, said,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to send the former president or the

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Speaker 1: presidency refers to him to jail. Everyone knows who's tried

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Speaker 1: a case, so who's been in court that that's not allowed.

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Speaker 1: So Blanche must have known it. Do you think it

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Speaker 1: backfired on him because the instruction, the curative instruction, actually

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Speaker 1: told the jury, you know, even if he's found guilty,

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Speaker 1: Trump doesn't necessarily have to get prison time.

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Speaker 3: It's something that is a basic ground rule for lawyers

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Speaker 3: to know not to mention certain things. They're not to

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Speaker 3: argue impermissible things to the jury. This is plainly impermissible.

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Speaker 3: Prosecution or defense knows that you can't do that, it's impermissible.

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Speaker 3: The judge was right to fly off the handle with it.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it's one of these things that is

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Speaker 3: hard to reconcile as a fiction of what the jury

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Speaker 3: knows or doesn't know. I mean, we're to presume that

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Speaker 3: this jury is not reading any newspapers, is not aware

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Speaker 3: of the coverage of it, is not thinking about the

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Speaker 3: ramifications to them of a guilty verdict, or whether they're

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Speaker 3: doing something unprecedented in convicting and or some point of punishment,

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Speaker 3: whether it's jail or not for the former president of

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Speaker 3: the United States. These are things that you know, are

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Speaker 3: legal fictions. And then there's this other fiction of a

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Speaker 3: curative instruction or striking testimony in front of the jury.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of hard to stuff the genie back into

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Speaker 3: the bottle. You know, they hear it, they get a

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Speaker 3: curative instruction, but then they're thinking, because they're human, they're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: we may be sending the former president to jail. So

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Speaker 3: I think Blanche was absolutely out of bounds by mentioning it.

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Speaker 3: He clearly knew he shouldn't. The judge was right to

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Speaker 3: fly off the handle with him. And as to what

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Speaker 3: damage it did or didn't do, it's going to be

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Speaker 3: devilutely impossible to help.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other side, the prosecutors said, there's

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Speaker 1: no special standard for Donald Trump. Donald Trump can't shoot

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Speaker 1: someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it, which

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Speaker 1: caused an objection which was sustained. But he got it in.

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Speaker 1: It's the same thing, right, you can't unring the bell, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is a famous line of Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: that he could shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth

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Speaker 3: Avenue and get away with it. And it's a statement

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Speaker 3: that is not an evidence. There are rules of evidence.

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Speaker 3: Prosecution is held to a higher standard. They shouldn't have

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Speaker 3: mentioned it. This is the objection was sustained. It's a

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Speaker 3: minor point, I suppose, because it's not well, there's a

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Speaker 3: distinction to be made between argument that is impermissible because

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Speaker 3: it wrongly has the jury doing something that is beyond

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Speaker 3: the scope of what it's supposed to do, like considering punishment.

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Speaker 3: Their job is to consider the facts of it, and

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Speaker 3: mentioning something that where there are no facts and evidence.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of, in a way, a more minor transgression.

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Speaker 3: But that was an objection that was sustained, and you're right,

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Speaker 3: so the jury hears it.

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Speaker 2: What are they going to do with it?

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Speaker 3: You know? For those who know the reference, they know

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Speaker 3: the reference. For those that don't. They don't, but it's

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Speaker 3: really more a statement of what is an evidence and

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Speaker 3: what is not in evidence.

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Speaker 1: They probably have to be living in a cave for

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Speaker 1: the last eight years if they didn't know that.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And that's part of the fiction of this case.

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Speaker 3: There's so much, you know, they're supposed to have evidence

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Speaker 3: in front of them during the trial that they can consider,

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Speaker 3: and they're not supposed to consider anything outside of what

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Speaker 3: happened during the last few weeks of this trial. And

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Speaker 3: so that's why the DA introduced evidence, for example, from

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Speaker 3: mister Trump's books showing that he was a penny pincher

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Speaker 3: and that he negotiated everything down to the paper clip,

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Speaker 3: because that gets to their point that he wouldn't just

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Speaker 3: be signing thirty five thousand dollars checks for Michael Cohene

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Speaker 3: without knowing what that was for. But the jurors may

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Speaker 3: also be away or just from reading the newspapers that

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Speaker 3: their Trump is someone who famously doesn't pay his lawyers.

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Speaker 3: That didn't come into evidence, but it might be something

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Speaker 3: they know in the back of their mind that he's

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Speaker 3: somebody who has, you know, never paid his lawyers or

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Speaker 3: paid vendors, which has been widely reported on, and so

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Speaker 3: that is something that they may be using in the

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Speaker 3: back of their head, but they're not supposed to bring

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Speaker 3: it into the deliberation room because it's not evidence in

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Speaker 3: the trial that wasn't presented.

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Speaker 2: They didn't call.

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Speaker 3: Lawyers who got diffed on their legal invoices. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that there's this fiction about what a jury

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Speaker 3: knows and doesn't know, but they're really only supposed to

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Speaker 3: consider evidence that came in that was properly admitted into evidence,

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Speaker 3: and nothing else.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the prosecution did enough in marshaling the

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Speaker 1: evidence and presenting its case in closing arguments?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, undoubtedly, Yes, every element of the crime was put in.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's ample evidence if you credit Michael Cone,

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Speaker 3: for sure. Even without crediting Michael Cone, I think there's

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Speaker 3: ample evidence that mister Trump was aware of and approved

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Speaker 3: the repayment scheme to Michael Cone, that was a lie

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Speaker 3: on the books and records, that this was for legal

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Speaker 3: services to Michael Cone, that it was a cover up

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Speaker 3: of payments to Storm mc daniels and Karen McDougall and others,

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Speaker 3: That there was a conspiracy between David Pecker and the

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Speaker 3: National inquirer and Michael Cone to promote mister Trump's election

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Speaker 3: by unlawful means, now lawful means for the hush money

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Speaker 3: payments that violated federal campaign finance laws. Think that everything

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Speaker 3: is there. The only reason he will be acquitted or

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Speaker 3: a hung jury is if there's a juror too for

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Speaker 3: other reasons other than the evidence, decides not to convict them.

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Speaker 3: I think the evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt that

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Speaker 3: he is guilty of the crimes.

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Speaker 1: And so will you explain what the jurors have to

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Speaker 1: find in order to convict Trump the elements of the crime.

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Speaker 3: Sure, In the first instance, they have to find that

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Speaker 3: mister Trump one caused the filing of false business records

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Speaker 3: and two that he did so with the intent to

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Speaker 3: conceal another crime. And the other crime is a violation

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Speaker 3: of New York state election law and the statute that

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Speaker 3: makes it illegal to conspire to promote an election by

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Speaker 3: unlawful means. And the judge said that the jury can

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Speaker 3: differ on what the unlawful means was. So they all

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Speaker 3: have to agree that mister Trump caused the filing of

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Speaker 3: false business records. They all have to agree that mister

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Speaker 3: Trump did so with the intent to promote his election

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Speaker 3: by unlawful means, and that the jurors can disagree with

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Speaker 3: what the unlawful means were, but that's it. That's what

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Speaker 3: they have to find.

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Speaker 1: So is it an advantage to the prosecution that the

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Speaker 1: judge instructed the jury that they don't have to be

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Speaker 1: unanimous as to the unlawful means and they can each

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Speaker 1: decide whether it was state election law, federal election law,

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Speaker 1: or the falsification of other business records.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a narrative out there, particularly in more conservative

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Speaker 3: media that I have been seeing, where there's been outrage

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Speaker 3: that the jurors don't need to be unanimous on what

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Speaker 3: the underlying crime is. Just to be more specific, they

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Speaker 3: do need to be unanimous on what the underlying crime is,

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Speaker 3: which is a conspiracy to promote his election by unlawful means.

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Speaker 3: It's another step down about it's a technical question about

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Speaker 3: what the unlawful means were. So was it the payment

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Speaker 3: to Stormy Daniels, wasn't the payment to Karen McDougal. Was

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Speaker 3: it in furtherance of a tax crime? But they do

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Speaker 3: need to be unanimous on the bump up crime, which

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Speaker 3: is this violation of New York State election law. There

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Speaker 3: is certainly an advantage to the prosecution from that jury instruction,

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Speaker 3: But there are other jury instructions which really did not

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Speaker 3: go the prosecution's way. For example, they were arguing for

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Speaker 3: an expansive definition of the word cause that mister Trump

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Speaker 3: caused the filing of false business records. The statute doesn't

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Speaker 3: lay out what it means to cause somebody to file

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Speaker 3: false business records, and the prosecution was arguing that should

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Speaker 3: be expansively read to say that it was reasonably foreseeable

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Speaker 3: from his actions that the records would be filed, and

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Speaker 3: the defense objected to it. And it looks like the

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Speaker 3: judge gives the instruction on cause just being the standard

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Speaker 3: definition of it, which is to make somebody do something,

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Speaker 3: because there's really no evidence that mister Trump picked up

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Speaker 3: the phone and said to mister Cohne, oh, you should

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Speaker 3: file these false business records. It's more nebulous than that.

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Speaker 3: And so there are some through instructions that went to

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Speaker 3: prosecution's way, and there are some that went to defense life.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything in particular in the prosecution's case, putting

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Speaker 1: aside the fact that there may be a juror who

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Speaker 1: is a hidden Trump supporter with an agenda. Is there

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Speaker 1: anything that might confuse the jury or hang the jury?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think the weakest part of the prosecution's

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Speaker 3: case is exactly that, which is whether Trump caused the

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Speaker 3: records to be filed. And you know, I think the

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Speaker 3: rest of it is extremely strong. There's tons of evidence

404
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Speaker 3: putting mister Trump at the center of it. I think

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Speaker 3: they made a case that mister Trump was distracted. He

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Speaker 3: was president involved in the internal accounting of the Trump

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Speaker 3: organization and doesn't really know how these things are being

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Speaker 3: recorded in the books and records and whether they're being

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Speaker 3: recorded as legal payments or reimbursements, and he's just not

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Speaker 3: paying attention to that kind of thing and did not

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Speaker 3: cause this to happen, And that mister Cohne and mister Weifelberg,

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Speaker 3: the former CFO, were working together but not with mister Trump,

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Speaker 3: to try to distance mister Trump from that as much

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Speaker 3: as possible. I mean, that is their best defense.

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Speaker 1: On the whole. What do you think about the defense case?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think the defense overplayed its hand by arguing that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the sexual encounter with Stormy Daniels never happened.

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Speaker 3: I think they overplayed their hand by saying that this

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Speaker 3: was not a reimbursement in mister Cohne, but was really

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Speaker 3: for legitimate legal services. And at times the case they

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Speaker 3: were arguing felt much more for public consumption than for,

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Speaker 3: you know, the narrow purpose of trying to get their client.

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Speaker 1: Equitted, maybe for public consumption or for their clients' consumption.

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Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Is there a conflict in the fact that they're saying

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Speaker 1: that these were payments for a legal retainer, yet they're

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Speaker 1: saying that on that document with the scribbling by Alan Weisselberg,

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Speaker 1: they're saying that Coed, you know, stole tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars from Trump. Is there any sort of disconnect there?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. I mean, everybody knows Michael Cohene

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Speaker 3: is a liar, and the fact that he stole money

432
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 3: doesn't really change anything. It's a distraction from the key

433
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: issues sul case.

434
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being on the show. That's criminal

435
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 1: defense attorney Duncan Levin. Coming up next on the Bloomberg

436
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: Lawn Show, we're going to be talking about the settlement

437
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: that many say could change the face of US college Sports.

438
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. The NCAA,

439
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: in the nation's five biggest conference, is announced they've agreed

440
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: to pay nearly two point eight billion dollars to settle

441
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: a host of anti trust claims. It's a monumental decision

442
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: that sets the stage for a groundbreaking revenue sharing model

443
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: that could start steering millions of dollars directly to athletes

444
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: as soon as the twenty twenty five fall semester. Joining

445
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: me is Martiny Dell, co chair of the sports law

446
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: practice at Golston and Stores. They've been fighting this for years.

447
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: Why settle now?

448
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: So that's a great question. The answer seems to be

449
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: that you have a confluence of events. You have three

450
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 2: antitrust lawsuits that the NCAA seems to be desirous of

451
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: cutting its attorneys' fees on. They have a legislative program

452
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: where they're lobbying Congress at this point, and the time

453
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: to lobby this session of Congress is going to expire

454
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: pretty quickly. And third is they got the Power five

455
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: on board at this point. So taking advantage of all

456
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: those things, I think means that the NCAA wanted to

457
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: resolve these issues, which it seems at least that the

458
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 2: NCAA wasn't willing to take the risk of going to court.

459
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: On tell us about the agreement.

460
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: Generally sure, So again, the agreement is subject to Judge

461
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 2: Wilkins's approval and that has not yet occurred. What it

462
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: will cover has a retrospective and prospective element to it.

463
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: The retrospective element is to pay student athletes, principally men's basketball,

464
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 2: women's basketball, and football athletes, two point seven to two

465
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 2: point eight billion dollars over ten years, and that will

466
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: compensate them sensibly for the moneies they lost in revenue

467
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: sharing and nil dollars from twenty sixteen to forward. That's

468
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: element one. Second element is the prospective that the school

469
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: subject to this agreement have agreed to revenue sharing for

470
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 2: media revenues up to what comes out to about twenty

471
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: million dollars a year in TOTO with their student athletes.

472
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: Those are the principal elements. It covers current and past

473
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: athletes and what the allocation format. And there are lots

474
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: of unknowns in there, but those are the principal elements. Yes,

475
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: I understand them.

476
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: Let's start with the back payments, which athletes will be

477
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,239
Speaker 1: paid and how much?

478
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: So what seems to be the case is it will

479
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: cover men's basketball, women's basketball, and football, which is obviously

480
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: a male sport. That will be the two point seven

481
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: to two point eight billion, which it seems will come

482
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: forty one percent from the NCAA, thirty four percent from

483
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: the Power five and the Football Bowl Championship, and the

484
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: balance from twenty seven smaller conferences, which makes it about

485
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: I guess twenty five percent.

486
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: Let's take football. Does every football player you know within

487
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: the timeframe get money?

488
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: So that's not exactly worked out. It seems to cover

489
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: all the players going back to twenty sixteen to the

490
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: loss of dollars. How they allocate that as something else.

491
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 2: Somebody who sat on the bench from twenty sixteen to

492
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen ostensibly wouldn't be entitled to quite the same

493
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: share as the starting quarterback or the star center for

494
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: teams should get more than somebody who wrote the bench

495
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: on the men's or women's basketball team. It would cover

496
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: about ten thousand student athletes.

497
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: As far as the upcoming payments, does each school decide

498
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: who gets what?

499
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: So the schools that buy into the program have agreed

500
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 2: to contribute a percentage of their media revenues going forward,

501
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: and it comes out to about the numbers I've seen,

502
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 2: about twenty two percent of the media revenues of an

503
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: average Power five team. Power five are essentially five conferences,

504
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: the ACC, the Big Ten, the Big twelve, the SEC,

505
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: and whatever is left of the PAC twelve, which is

506
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: now down to two teams, so I guess it's the

507
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: Pack two. There's a formula to be worked out. The

508
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: allocation is supposed to be worked out by an expert

509
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: that has not yet occurred.

510
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: Will each school do it the same way or will

511
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: schools do it different ways?

512
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: So that's not entirely clear. I mean, there's a lot

513
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: of lack of clarity, if you will. In the agreement.

514
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: It provides strong goalposts, visible ones that people could see,

515
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: such as it's approximately twenty two percent of a Power

516
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: five's media revenues. So if you're an IVY League team,

517
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: you're going to have to contribute both on the retrospective

518
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: side your share of twenty five five percent and on

519
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: the prospective side about twenty two percent of your media

520
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: revenues on an annual basis.

521
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Title nine how does Title nine

522
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: work in here?

523
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: So it works in a number of ways which don't

524
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: seem to have been thought through very clearly. So because

525
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: Title nine mandates more or less gender equality, there's a

526
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: real question of how the funds will be allocated. You know,

527
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: right now you have women's basketball being covered, But will

528
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: it be covered to the same extent, for instance, as

529
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: men's basketball retrospectively and prospectively not clear because we don't

530
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: have those details yet. What will other women's teams get

531
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: in terms of dollars both nil and prospectively revenue sharing?

532
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: Title nine will have to factor in here because it's

533
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: the law, but it's not at all clear how Title

534
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: nine will factor it.

535
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: Suppose there's a school that has men's basketball, men's football,

536
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: women's basketball, but also has, let's say, a great rowing

537
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: team or something. Can they say, Okay, we're giving men's

538
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: basketball and football and women's basketball this much, and we're

539
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: going to give the rowing team this much.

540
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: So it seems that the schools can allocate the dollars

541
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: to any sport they want. The question is will they

542
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: allocate dollars to non revenue sports such as rowing. It's

543
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: curious that one of the lawsuits that's being settled. He

544
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: or one of the anti trust suits is House lawsuit.

545
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: House was a swimmer that is not a revenue sport.

546
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: He should be entitled to get a sum amount for

547
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: nil rights for gone for the period twenty sixteen until

548
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: the NCAAA changed their rules on July one, twenty twenty one.

549
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: But it's not clear again how much non revenue sports

550
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: athletes will get from this.

551
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: Does this mean the NCAA's antitrust problems are over.

552
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: Hardly No, it's the short answer for a couple of reasons.

553
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: First off, there is a fourth antitrust lawsuit hanging out there,

554
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: the Fortnate suit, which has been in the federal District

555
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: court in Colorado, and the judge there refused to consolidate

556
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: that lawsuit into the House suit at this point without prejudice,

557
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: so it could be revisited. But that lawsuit is going

558
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: forward and that deals with our athletes from the revenue

559
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: sports entitled to a share of TV rights and revenues

560
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: that go forward. Second antitrust issue that's going to come up, Well,

561
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: if the schools are camping, the amount they're going to

562
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: share in terms of revenue at twenty million dollars a year,

563
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: we're about twenty two percent. Well, that may create another

564
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: antitrust violation. Why should there be a cap on the

565
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: amount that schools are willing to share. Why wouldn't the

566
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: athletes in their free market be able to obtain a

567
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: greater percentage than that amount. So this settles three lawsuits

568
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: that are in existence. There's one in existence that's not settled,

569
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: and there may be others down the road. That leads

570
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: to the NCAA's appeal to Congress to give it an

571
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: antitrust exemption, and appeal which so far is pulling on

572
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: deaf ears.

573
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: Is baseball the only one that has anti trust exemption?

574
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: Yes?

575
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: And people question that as well.

576
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: People question that, but the Supreme Court has made clear

577
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: in the Kurt Flood case in nineteen seventy two that

578
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: it will not step into this breach here. The baseball

579
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: exemption has been in place now for one hundred and

580
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: one years. If the baseball exemption is going to change,

581
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: Supreme Court has made it clear it should come from Congress,

582
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: not from the courts.

583
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: What about name, image, and likeness rights? Does that fit

584
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: in with this? Is it separate?

585
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 3: So?

586
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: Yes? And yes? How's that for an under answer. So

587
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: what this settlement, if proved, does is it recompenses athletes

588
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: for lost NIL licensing for the period twenty sixteen through

589
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: until July one, twenty twenty one, when there arose a

590
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: free market for NIL licensing rights. So it shouldn't be

591
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: a problem. But what this does on the NIL front

592
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: is that the agreement would permit colleges and universities to

593
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: work directly with student athletes on licensing of their NIL rights,

594
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: something which is currently forbidden under NCAA rules. So it

595
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: would create another c change in NIL rights. Will you

596
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: have the collectives which currently exist? Will you have colleges

597
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: and universities licensing rights directly from their student athletes?

598
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 1: Dartmouth players recently unionized. Does that cause any conflict with this?

599
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: Probably not, but that's a great point. So this settlement

600
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: does not directly address the issue of whether a student

601
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: athlete is employee or not. That said, it becomes increasingly

602
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: difficult for the NCAA and its member schools to make

603
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: the argument that student athletes are not employees when they're

604
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: getting paid a percentage of revenues for their performance. When

605
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 2: schools will be licensing NIL rights directly from them, as

606
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: they would from employees that exists there so this will help.

607
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: It seems to me cement the article that student athletes

608
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: at the schools that buy into this will be treated

609
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: as employees. That has a further consequence, which I want

610
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: to go back to the anti trust point. If the

611
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: students are able to be designated as employees and unionized

612
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: so they're covered, for instance, by the National Labor Relations Act,

613
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: there will be no more anti trust issue because the

614
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 2: National Labor Relations Act takes precedents their rights to collective

615
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: bargain with respect to revenues, and the LIGHT takes precedents

616
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 2: over the antitrust laws.

617
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: So I confess I don't know all that much about

618
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: college sports, but it seems like there are so many unknowns.

619
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: Why is this being hailed as such a sea change

620
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: in college sports? Do you think it's a sea change?

621
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: Yes, I do, because it's the first time that colleges

622
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: and universities and therefore the NCAA have gotten into the business,

623
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: if you will, of paying athletes directly. That has always

624
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: been a real negative for the NCAA, and its rules

625
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: and regulations to date have prescribed colleges and universities paying

626
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: athletes directly for services other than and scholarship at grant

627
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: and aids. Now that sort of goes by the wayside.

628
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: That's the one real strong takeaway from this entire model.

629
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: It will change the model for the NCAA to do business,

630
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 2: for these colleges and universities to do business. What it

631
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: is in my view, likely to engender is that you

632
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: will have now a Power five grouping, which may be

633
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: the equivalent of a new minor league for professional sports.

634
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: And it gives all the other schools an opportunity to

635
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 2: reassess what their mission is. Is it going to be education,

636
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: Is it going to be athletics. If it's education, how

637
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: are they going to change around what they're doing with

638
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: athletics so that they don't have to spend tons of money?

639
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things I, in my own

640
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: weird way, Jo and I laugh at is the Dartmouth

641
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: basketball players have sought unionization, as you mentioned, yet Dartmouth

642
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: has lost three and a half to five million dollars

643
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: over the last five years on basketball. That's not a

644
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: sustainable model. How can they change that to focus more

645
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: on the Dartmouth educational mission rather than the athletic mission.

646
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: Can't be with the athletes continuing to put in sixty

647
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: to seventy hours a week on athletics, but that needs

648
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: to be thought through. But I think this gives schools

649
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: such as Dartmouth, such as Northwestern, such as Vanderbilt, which

650
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: is the only private school in the SEC, a real

651
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: opportunity to reassess what their mission is.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Marty. That's Martini Delle of Gulston and Stores.

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Speaker 1: And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Remember you've can always get the latest legal news by

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Speaker 1: subscribing and listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 1: and at Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, slash Law. I'm

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Speaker 1: June Grosso and this is Bloomberg a