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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, and this is Fast Politics, where

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Speaker 1: we discuss the top political headlines with some of today's

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Speaker 1: best minds. And Palindir co-founder Joe Lonsdale says that Trump's

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Speaker 1: $ 5, 000 dividend is a bribe. We have such a great

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Speaker 1: show for you today. Runaway Country's Alex Wagner stops by

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Speaker 1: to talk about her new book, The Steel. Four right-wing hardliners,

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Speaker 1: one Republican presidency, and the raid on America's courts. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll talk to author Salman Rushdie about his new documentary, Knife,

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Speaker 1: the attempted murder of Salman Rushdie. But first, the news.

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Speaker 2: Molly, Joe DiGenova has quit the DOJ. And many people

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Speaker 2: are saying who are familiar with this fellow that this

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Speaker 2: is really a sign that Trump must have really wanted

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Speaker 2: some bad stuff because this guy is apparently King Sycophant.

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Speaker 1: When I saw this, I was surprised because this guy

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Speaker 1: comes from real like John Solomon or kind of Clinton

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Speaker 1: cash era of writing. And basically, he had gone to

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Speaker 1: get the evidence to prove the crimes that Trump had alleged. Usually,

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Speaker 1: you don't look for evidence to prove your crimes. You

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Speaker 1: see where the evidence takes you. This is a sort

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Speaker 1: of stark reversal from that. Anyway, the point is, he

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Speaker 1: decided that he had to leave he resigned and he

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Speaker 1: actually said something to the effect.

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Speaker 2: Of yeah he said this crazy thing if you want

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Speaker 2: indictments where there's no evidence you have an ethical problem

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: This is a big deal. If you want indictments where

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Speaker 1: there's no evidence, you have an ethical problem. And this

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Speaker 1: makes me think that Donald Trump wants indictments where there's

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Speaker 1: no evidence and Joe DiGenova, the fact that he leaving

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Speaker 1: means that the Trump world wants those indictments and doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to wait for evidence and doesn't really care if

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Speaker 1: it's true or not. And this guy who is very

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Speaker 1: Trumpy resigned because he thought it was morally incorrect. And

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Speaker 1: this makes me think this is probably not good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in line with things that are not good, Trump

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Speaker 2: had the audience do this little pledge last night that

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Speaker 2: many people say this was like one of the most

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Speaker 2: staring into the abyss moments in a long time that

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Speaker 2: we've had at this embarrassing, embarrassing convention. Swearing to cheat

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Speaker 2: for him in the midterms really is something.

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Speaker 1: So raise your right hand. This is the pledge. OK,

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Speaker 1: he had them swear. Raise your right hand. I pledge

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Speaker 1: the greatest president in the history of the United States

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Speaker 1: that loves us so much. He can't even breathe that

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Speaker 1: I will go out with my family, my friends. I'll

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Speaker 1: do it anyway. I don't care if I'm registered or not.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try and cheat like hell like they do.

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Speaker 1: There has never been bigger cheaters. They don't care. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go out and I'm going to get my

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Speaker 1: friends and family and we're going to vote on November

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Speaker 1: 3rd or we were going to vote before that. Trump

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Speaker 1: has the crowd repeating. So he wanted them to cheat

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Speaker 1: and he wants them to bring their friends and family

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Speaker 1: to cheat, too, even for Trump. no one was watching

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Speaker 1: the second night. No, I mean, people are watching. Look,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be bad stuff that's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: And Trump is hoping so. And he's encouraging it. And

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Speaker 1: that's really dark.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I the real thing here being is that

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Speaker 2: we've all been worried about bad stuff happening. And when

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Speaker 2: he encourages it, we know it's a foregone conclusion that

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Speaker 2: you're going to have like people like Tracy Peters that

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Speaker 2: like do these things. And because he pushed it now

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Speaker 2: and these people are going to end up in jail

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Speaker 2: for doing these things when they get prosecuted later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like cult like he's hoping that one or

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Speaker 1: two people or more will keep him in office by cheating.

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Speaker 1: And that is crazy. Really, you know, it's funny. It's

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Speaker 1: like we talk a lot about Trump and the difference

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Speaker 1: between norms, what's illegal and what's something that people just

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Speaker 1: would never do. And this is it's not illegal to

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Speaker 1: tell people to to do this, to cheat. It's not illegal,

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Speaker 1: but it's it probably should be. I mean, it's protected speech,

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Speaker 1: but like he is the leader of the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: He is the president himself. of the country, like this

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Speaker 1: is pretty bad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And, you know, I hate to say it, but like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the final season of secession kind of rings

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Speaker 2: in your brain when you think of these things. And

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Speaker 2: like every election, I like have an ambient anxiety about

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Speaker 2: that plot line coming true.

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Speaker 1: Trump is a person who tells you what he's going

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Speaker 1: to do. That's kind of his thing. So the fact

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Speaker 1: that he said again and again and again that he's

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Speaker 1: going to cheat or he's going, you know, that it's

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Speaker 1: the only way to make it fair is for them

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Speaker 1: to cheat, too. That doesn't seem good to me. The

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Speaker 1: other thing is that, you know, you really do see

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Speaker 1: like from the rows and rows of empty seats, Trump

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Speaker 1: saying that if Republicans are able to keep the House,

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Speaker 1: which they're probably not going to be able to, that

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Speaker 1: they will give everyone five thousand dollars. which a lot

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Speaker 1: of Republicans said no immediately. The Republicans control all of

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Speaker 1: Washington right now. So why wouldn't they do it now?

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Speaker 1: But also Trump is really desperate and worried he's going

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Speaker 1: to lose. And I think that is what the sort

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Speaker 1: of overwhelming vibe that we get from this midterm convention

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Speaker 1: is that Trump is really convinced he's going to lose.

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Speaker 1: And there's a reason for that.

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Speaker 3: Molly, you said you wanted to talk Trump's favorite subject, ratings.

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Speaker 1: Trump's speech topped out at 2.8 million viewers. Two weeks earlier,

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Speaker 1: Democratic senatorial candidate Dr. Abdul Al-Said, he got 600,000 more

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Speaker 1: viewers on. So I think it's a really good example

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Speaker 1: because it just shows that Trump is actually not making

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Speaker 1: news very much anymore. And people don't watch the news

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Speaker 1: for him anymore because they know it already and i

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Speaker 1: think that's the thing about a decade of trumpism is

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Speaker 1: like we pretty much know what he's going to do

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Speaker 1: he's kind of out of ideas and so he was

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Speaker 1: really mad when people panned to how empty the stadium

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Speaker 1: was but you know you can't hide the.

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Speaker 2: Truth Speaking of not hiding the truth, this is delicious.

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Speaker 2: So there's this group of tech bros, these Marc Andreessen's,

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Speaker 2: these David Sachs, these all in bros who are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden scorned me because he didn't say our innovation

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Speaker 2: is the greatest thing in the world. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to Mr.

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Speaker 3: Trump. And turns out Mark Andreessen.

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Speaker 1: Mark Andreessen is a lying liar who lies. Now, what

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Speaker 1: I think is important here is that the failure on

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Speaker 1: the part of Biden world was not rebuking the lie

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Speaker 1: right away and waiting two years. So basically, Mark Andreessen,

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Speaker 1: Ben Horowitz, they went to the White House and they

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Speaker 1: said that the Biden administration shared a secret plan to

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Speaker 1: effectively ban AI startups. They were so alarmed when they

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Speaker 1: heard this that they laughed and said, yep, we're voting

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Speaker 1: for Trump. So already sounds like bullshit. Well, it turns

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Speaker 1: out it is bullshit. And here's what Biden World should

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Speaker 1: have done. They should have just leaked the tapes. You know,

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Speaker 1: part of the problem with Democrats is like when they

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Speaker 1: go low, a.k.a. lie about us, we just let them

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Speaker 1: is a mistake. And that's how we got here. And

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Speaker 1: part of the Biden administration's big problem was they had

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Speaker 1: actual real sense regulation for AI that would keep it

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Speaker 1: from killing us all within the next two years or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And real smart regulation was not what Marc Andreessen and

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Speaker 1: Ben Horowitz wanted. They wanted no regulation because they make

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Speaker 1: more money that way, just like David Sachs. By the way,

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Speaker 1: the AI policy now for this White House is basically

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Speaker 1: we need to do everything as fast as we can

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Speaker 1: and build coal plants to power it because otherwise China will. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And if we all die, who cares? Whoop-dee-doo.

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Speaker 1: Right. Well, at least we'll have killed us all and

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Speaker 1: the Chinese won't have killed us all. And again, this

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Speaker 1: is an insane way to operate. And like instead of

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Speaker 1: trying to like form a rapprochement with China, trying to

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Speaker 1: work together to prevent us all dying, they're just like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we need to build lots of coal plants. And it's

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Speaker 1: just so fucking stupid. And it is built by some

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Speaker 1: of the dumbest, greediest people in American life. Alex Wagner

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Speaker 1: is the host of Runaway Country and the author of

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Speaker 1: The Steal, four right-wing hardliners, one Republican presidency, and the

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Speaker 1: raid on America's courts. Welcome, welcome, Alex Wagner.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly.

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Speaker 5: You are a wonderful person to see any day, but

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Speaker 5: especially in a Zoom in a Zoom room.

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Speaker 6: Wait.

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Speaker 1: So last night, night two of the midterm convention, the

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Speaker 1: Republican air quotes on the convention. Well, also, air quotes

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Speaker 1: on the term midterm. Wait, why? Because it just ended

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Speaker 1: up being about Trump. Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: No, totally.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And in fact, he wanted it.

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Speaker 5: He's just pretend I'm on the ballot. It was the

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Speaker 5: refrain of the two day festival of ego, I guess,

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Speaker 5: is another word to describe another phrase to describe what

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Speaker 5: just transpired in Dallas.

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Speaker 1: It's so strange to me, though, because like somebody must

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Speaker 1: I mean, Susie Wiles, someone must be like looking at

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Speaker 1: these numbers, these polling numbers and being like, maybe we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't make this about you.

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Speaker 5: Well, this is the thing that I've actually you're zeroing

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Speaker 5: in on the thing that I find. most disturbing about

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Speaker 5: this whole thing is that these Republicans, these administration officials

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Speaker 5: know that their asses are literally on the line here.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: Like Susie Wiles could be face, you know, an oversight

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Speaker 5: hearing or worse, an investigation at some point if Democrats

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Speaker 5: regain control of the legislative branch. And Trump knows that

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Speaker 5: his power is on the line. And yet, even with

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Speaker 5: the stakes as enormously and personally high as they are,

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Speaker 5: nobody in his orbit can say, hey, daddy, this is

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Speaker 5: a bad idea. That to me is like the to

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Speaker 5: the degree that even vulnerable Republican candidates like John Husted

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Speaker 5: and Mike Rogers are up there kissing the ring when

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Speaker 5: they know it could be a form of political suicide. That,

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Speaker 5: to me, is the thing that I... And it makes

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Speaker 5: you wonder, if they can't... If Susie Wiles at all

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Speaker 5: can't tell Trump this is a bad idea, what else

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Speaker 5: can they not tell him, right? Like, that has decidedly

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Speaker 5: less personal investment for them. I mean, that is how

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Speaker 5: we're at war in Iran, I guess. Nobody will say

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Speaker 5: anything that, you know, might make daddy mad.

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Speaker 1: So, but J.D. Vance will perhaps leak to reporters that he...

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Speaker 1: It's not totally bought in on the war.

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Speaker 5: Yes, we have seen a concerted effort on the part

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Speaker 5: of both J.D. Vance and I would argue a little

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Speaker 5: bit of Marco Rubio and maybe some Pete Hegseth, but

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Speaker 5: mostly J.D. Vance's people behind the scenes leaking to The

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Speaker 5: New York Times stories of the ways in which J.D.

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Speaker 5: Vance really took seriously the allegations of the Epstein files

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Speaker 5: and really thought that Bibi Netanyahu's promises to Trump in

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Speaker 5: the sit room that this war would be one and

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Speaker 5: done over and out in less.

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Speaker 1: Than two weeks.

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Speaker 5: He took seriously the threats, the potential peril, and the

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Speaker 5: potential cost to the public.

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Speaker 1: Like, give me a fucking break. He is a stooge, nay,

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Speaker 1: plues ultra. And if anybody thinks J.D.

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Speaker 5: Vance is breaking fundamentally in any meaningful way with Donald

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Speaker 5: Trump and all that he represents, he got another thing coming.

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Speaker 1: But it is it does show that some people who

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Speaker 1: are smarter behind the scenes see can can read polls.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: I think J.D.

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Speaker 5: Is in Dallas because he wants to come out early

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Speaker 5: and meaningfully ahead of the field in terms of 2028

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Speaker 5: presidential nominees on the Republican side. He wants to cement

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Speaker 5: his position as the front runner, as the lead horse.

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Speaker 5: And he also wants to dial in with donor money,

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Speaker 5: which is all convened in Dallas around the election. ego

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Speaker 5: festival that is the midterm convention. So I think he had,

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Speaker 5: you know, personal reasons for doing it, professional reasons. And

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Speaker 5: at this point, he's so associated with the Trump brand that, like,

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Speaker 5: big surprise if the vice president speaks after the president.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, though it is amazing that Trump spoke both nights.

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Speaker 1: And said the same thing. Same thing. Though the second

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Speaker 1: night he did make everyone pledge that they would cheat. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And pledged that he was the greatest president in the

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Speaker 5: history of our democracy.

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Speaker 1: And he loved them or they loved him?

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Speaker 5: I try and imagine him when I hear him speaking.

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Speaker 5: And I try to only listen to the audio. I

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Speaker 5: try not to watch that strange anus-like mouth over enunciating

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Speaker 5: its vowels. But I try and imagine him speaking from

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Speaker 5: a hospital bed because he sounds or prone because he

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Speaker 5: sounds like a crazy old grandfather. Yeah. yelling at the

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Speaker 5: TV screen or to a relative in the next room.

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Speaker 5: That's how I sort of contextualize the words coming out

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Speaker 5: of his mouth.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is such an amazing moment in American life

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Speaker 1: because he was like unhinged. I mean, you and I,

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Speaker 1: so we're both the same age. So we have spent

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Speaker 1: basically our 30s and our 40s. Yeah. A little bit

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Speaker 1: of our 40s covering this guy. And like at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: he was like, he's really good at this. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't like what he's saying, but you could see

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Speaker 1: how it worked on people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And now it's like some of this stuff is absolutely unhinged.

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Speaker 1: Like you read it, you can't believe it's real. You

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Speaker 1: have to go back and look at it. But it's,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it works on a section of manga,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't work the way it used to even four

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Speaker 1: years ago. Hard agree.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I spent I was doing this show called

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Speaker 5: The Circus. Lord, it feels like a long time ago. But,

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Speaker 5: you know, in Trump won and the interregnum period when

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Speaker 5: Biden was president. And I would go to these Trump

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Speaker 5: rallies and you would kind of roll your eyes at

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Speaker 5: a lot of the hateful, disgusting, xenophobic rhetoric. However, he

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Speaker 5: was a performer and those events had the feeling of

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Speaker 5: a church revival. People found a sense of identity and

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Speaker 5: belonging and I will say joy even in the hate.

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Speaker 5: And you could understand the magnetism. And Trump was really

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Speaker 5: enjoying it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And he was going off the cuff and he was

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Speaker 5: funny and bawdy and he was saying the things that

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Speaker 5: nobody else would say. And you kind of understood the phenomenon.

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Speaker 5: Now it really is the person whose dentures are in

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Speaker 5: a glass on the side of the table that's gotten

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Speaker 5: really angry about the noise from the lawnmower in the

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Speaker 5: neighbor's yard and is also furious about about immigrants in

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Speaker 5: the neighborhood doing the lawn mowing. It's just the rantings

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Speaker 5: of an adult, old man in decline. It's not compelling.

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Speaker 5: And that's why at one point he's like, please, no

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Speaker 5: one get up and go to the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Right, because he needs the number.

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Speaker 5: He needs the numbers. He needs the audience. He lives

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Speaker 5: on the audience. And I think it's like, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's a thing you see.

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Speaker 1: It's a.

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Speaker 5: Families sort of try and create realities for their their

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Speaker 5: loved ones who were who are aging out of reality

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Speaker 5: and families try and create environments that are conducive to

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Speaker 5: them being their best selves. And that's what I think

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Speaker 5: you saw at the convention, which is the Republican Party

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Speaker 5: coming together to give the old man, you know, one

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Speaker 5: last pretend shot at the podium. And that's what we

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Speaker 5: got is a person who know who's lost his fastball,

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Speaker 5: as they say in baseball.

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Speaker 1: So I just there are two things I want to add,

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Speaker 1: which is I think that these early Trump rallies remind

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Speaker 1: me of like people who used to follow the Grateful Dead.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 1: There was like a religious sort of baby looking for

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Speaker 1: a miracle. Right. And then the other thing that I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about was that I'm struck by when we

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Speaker 1: look at this is how badly a lot of Trump's

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Speaker 1: made for TV cabinet did. Right. Right. Because he had

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Speaker 1: picked these guys. The reporting out of Regime Change, the

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Speaker 1: Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan book, has that Lutnick put

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Speaker 1: all of the cabinet, potential cabinet members on TV screens

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Speaker 1: and then they watched their TV clips to decide who

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Speaker 1: to pick. And so some of the picks, you know,

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Speaker 1: except for like Doug Burgum, who he supposedly saw horseback

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Speaker 1: riding with a hot wife and was like, we need him.

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Speaker 1: But like they were so underwhelming. Like last night we

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Speaker 1: had RFK Jr.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm a man who should never be at

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Speaker 5: any microphone ever as far as I'm concerned.

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Speaker 1: But, you know, he was picked because of how he

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Speaker 1: looked on television. Right. And then we had I mean,

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Speaker 1: it just they were really underwhelming. And then the other

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Speaker 1: one who I think is probably should be the focal

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Speaker 1: point of this moment because of what's happening with the

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Speaker 1: bond markets and what may be happening with with inflation

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Speaker 1: is my man Scott Bassett. You're the only one whose

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Speaker 1: man he is. He's a disaster.

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Speaker 5: Every time he opens his mouth, he's a disaster. I mean,

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Speaker 5: he's a disaster on Meet the Press any given Sunday.

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Speaker 5: I couldn't believe that they're trotting out the HHS secretary

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Speaker 5: in the middle of the worst measles outbreak in 35 years.

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Speaker 5: For more on that, please see this week's or last

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Speaker 5: week's Runaway Country episode on the measles epidemic. I mean,

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Speaker 5: just a complete fail in terms of someone that is

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Speaker 5: here to keep America healthy and safe. And then Scott Besant,

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Speaker 5: the architect of the D-Day plan to meaningfully change the

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Speaker 5: game in Iran that.

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Speaker 1: Did absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 5: Diesel's climbing to $ 6 a gallon. Oil prices are over

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Speaker 5: $ 100 a barrel.

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Speaker 1: The situation's getting worse, not better.

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Speaker 5: And then Trump's best shot is to try and bribe

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Speaker 5: the American public to the tune of $ 5, 000 checks that

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Speaker 5: are never going to materialize. I mean, Scott Besson is

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Speaker 5: an absolute clown.

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Speaker 1: A clown.

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Speaker 5: To pick those two people is such an insult to

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Speaker 5: the intelligence of people in that room. I don't know

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Speaker 5: if they were actually insulted, but definitely to the American public.

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Speaker 1: But Scott Besson is so interesting to me, too, because

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Speaker 1: the way he acts, like he is, I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: a Dr. Seuss character, right? Right. I mean, you've read Dr.

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Speaker 1: Seuss to your kids. You know he looks like a

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Speaker 1: character like Dr.

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Speaker 6: Seuss.

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Speaker 1: He talks like he's so snobby. And then the stuff

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Speaker 1: he says, I mean, you had this week, you had

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Speaker 1: Stanley Druckenmiller, who is his role model, the person who

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Speaker 1: was his, you know, who sort of taught him to

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Speaker 1: do what he does, saying like, this guy's totally lost

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Speaker 1: the plot. And it's just like, I feel like we're,

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Speaker 1: it definitely feels like we are heading towards disaster when

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Speaker 1: it comes to what's happening with Mark.

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Speaker 5: I mean, heading towards, you could argue that we're in

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Speaker 5: a kind of like toilet bowl swirl of disaster.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Because we have, again, an addled, mentally incapacitated man who

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Speaker 5: is unfit for office, literally directing the course of human

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Speaker 5: civilization right now in many ways. And he is surrounded

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Speaker 5: by stooges that not only are complacent, but dumb.

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Speaker 1: I mean, none of these people are particularly intelligent.

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Speaker 5: I would accept Susie Wiles, but she's been so corrupted

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Speaker 5: by power that she might as well be, you know,

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Speaker 5: not even there. I mean, we are not even talking

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Speaker 5: about the fact that like she's running the West Wing

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Speaker 5: like a bordello where it's like, 23-year-old girls getting $ 50, 000

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Speaker 5: payouts at Christmastime because they've enabled daddy's worst, most megalomaniacal impulses. And, like,

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Speaker 5: at least one of them appears to be mentally ill

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Speaker 5: and may be a liar.

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Speaker 1: Like, it is, like, the train is off. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Runaway Country is the name of it. We are off

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Speaker 1: the tracks. So the one who you think may be

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Speaker 1: mentally ill is the one who is basically Trump's gatekeeper,

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Speaker 1: Natalie Harp, who is the human printer and who is

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Speaker 1: controlling the flow of information. Yes.

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Speaker 5: And not only, I mean, has clearly successfully created a

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Speaker 5: climate of utter delusion inside the Oval Office, but also

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Speaker 5: is you point out a gatekeeper like world leaders have

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Speaker 5: to go through Natalie Harp to get the attention of

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Speaker 5: the president on matters of grave, like global import. That

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Speaker 5: should terrify everyone. The person who's like jumping into the

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Speaker 5: trunk of the SUV and sleeping in the locker room

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Speaker 5: at Bedminster and like, hanging out in the container ship,

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Speaker 5: escaping certain.

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Speaker 1: Like, you know, assumed danger. Not on the decoy plane, though.

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Speaker 1: Not on the decoy plane.

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Speaker 5: No, this is, this is like, you know, this is

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Speaker 5: like vice presidential level, inner sanctum access to the president.

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Speaker 1: It's wild. So let's talk about your book.

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Speaker 6: Let's.

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Speaker 1: Yes. We're here to talk about the book. We will

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Speaker 1: talk about the steel. So explain. First of all, I

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Speaker 1: want to know why did you I always am interested

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Speaker 1: in why people write nonfiction books about what they read about.

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Speaker 5: I am like many people may be listening to this podcast.

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Speaker 5: incensed by the undemocratic authoritarian impulses of the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Lifetime tenure. Don't have to answer to the public. Not

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 5: Like so at odds with both jurisprudence and the Constitution

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Speaker 5: to say nothing of American public opinion.

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Speaker 1: It's wrong.

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Speaker 5: It's not what the founders intended. And I kind of wondered, like,

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Speaker 5: how did we get here? It's not just the swing

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Speaker 5: of fate and random justices dying. It's actually the result

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Speaker 5: of a multi-decade project. that began in the shadows of

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Speaker 5: the Reagan administration and was led by four really weird,

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Speaker 5: unlikely antiheroes and has proven to be, I think, one

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Speaker 5: of the most longest lasting legacies of Right wing conservatism

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Speaker 5: and they've reshaped American life.

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Speaker 1: So this is kind of like a character.

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Speaker 5: It's a character driven heist novel, Molly, not novel, but book.

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Speaker 1: It reads like a novel.

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Speaker 5: And it's like, I don't think the four characters are

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Speaker 5: Ed Meese, who was a disheveled police enthusiast who became.

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Speaker 1: the attorney.

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Speaker 5: General under Ronald Reagan, Paul Weyrich, who should be a

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Speaker 5: household name and is not, but a right-wing activist who

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Speaker 5: sort of like had a vision for this country that

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Speaker 5: looks a lot like today, but seemed like a fool's

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Speaker 5: errand in the days after the 1970s. But he created

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Speaker 5: the Moral Majority. He created something called the Heritage Foundation.

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Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 5: He created something called ALEC, a Visionary Foundation. And a

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Speaker 5: railroad enthusiast with the manner of a formal, slightly constipated owl,

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Speaker 5: according to those who knew. Robert Bork, who you may

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Speaker 5: have heard about from his fantastically failed Supreme Court nomination,

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Speaker 5: but who proved to be kind of like the theologian

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Speaker 5: for this movement and came up with the idea of

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Speaker 5: originalism as a Trojan horse to get the courts to

437
00:23:17,109 --> 00:23:19,490
Speaker 5: rule in favor of conservative cause.

438
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: The fakest of fake ideas. And Joe Coors.

439
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,350
Speaker 5: You may know Coors Beer, but the beer magnate from

440
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,770
Speaker 5: Colorado who funded a lot of these nascent movements. So

441
00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:32,270
Speaker 5: it details like the beginning of the Federalist Society, the

442
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:35,710
Speaker 5: beginning of the Heritage Foundation, the early careers of two

443
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:41,990
Speaker 5: Department of Justice staffers named Samuel Alito and John Roberts,

444
00:23:42,530 --> 00:23:46,670
Speaker 5: the work that a young EEOC, that's the Equal Employment

445
00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:51,230
Speaker 5: Opportunity Commission, a young EEOC chair named Clarence Thomas did

446
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:54,050
Speaker 5: for Ronald Reagan and how he soon became an up

447
00:23:54,090 --> 00:23:56,580
Speaker 5: and comer in the world of the conservative right.

448
00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:57,750
Speaker 1: It's really a story.

449
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 5: About, you know, how this moment was made and tracing

450
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 5: back the historical origins. And it's like, you know, I

451
00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 5: will say it may read like a horror show because

452
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 5: we're living with the harvest of those seeds. But it's

453
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 5: also a template for action and like how the left

454
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,239
Speaker 5: should maybe think about progress. and how the left should

455
00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:19,940
Speaker 5: think about change, which is you have to be tenacious, focused,

456
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:23,390
Speaker 5: you have to be funded, but you have to be patient.

457
00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:27,090
Speaker 5: And these guys were. They were like, we're going to

458
00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:30,409
Speaker 5: unwind affirmative, we're going to unwind civil rights, we're going

459
00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:32,670
Speaker 5: to unwind Roe v. Wade, we're going to create a

460
00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 5: unitary executive theory, and we're going to take the judiciary

461
00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:38,300
Speaker 5: because we got the legislative branch, we got the executive branch,

462
00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 5: what's left? The courts.

463
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,940
Speaker 1: And they did it. So insane. I mean, and all

464
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:48,710
Speaker 1: so many of these people have early cameos in this movement. Right.

465
00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:54,390
Speaker 1: Like Gorsuch's mom. Right. Talk us through these interesting.

466
00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:57,010
Speaker 5: So there's like some origin story stuff here that you'll find.

467
00:24:57,050 --> 00:24:59,389
Speaker 5: I mean, I think I didn't want to write a

468
00:24:59,430 --> 00:25:02,020
Speaker 5: book about the current Supreme Court justices in part because

469
00:25:02,060 --> 00:25:04,620
Speaker 5: there are a lot of great books about them. But

470
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 5: I don't think we clock the degree to which they

471
00:25:06,859 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 5: were all in the same scene at the same time

472
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 5: in the 80s. Neil Gorsuch ends up going to Georgetown Prep,

473
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:17,859
Speaker 5: coming from Colorado, because his mother, Ann Gorsuch, who is

474
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,510
Speaker 5: a Cruella de Vil-like character who chain-smoked and wore fur

475
00:25:21,619 --> 00:25:25,710
Speaker 5: as the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, he ends

476
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:29,030
Speaker 5: up coming to D.C., going to Georgetown Prep. His mother

477
00:25:29,130 --> 00:25:32,830
Speaker 5: is EPA administrator, and she gets effectively tossed out on

478
00:25:32,850 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 5: her ass because of scandal. And it is a formative

479
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,510
Speaker 5: experience for one day Justice Gorsuch. He learns from his

480
00:25:40,570 --> 00:25:43,810
Speaker 5: mother and his mother's story that you never should capitulate.

481
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:44,990
Speaker 1: You fight, fight, fight.

482
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:48,389
Speaker 5: You never apologize. Don't let the bastards get you down.

483
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,899
Speaker 5: And indeed, being wholly at odds with public sentiment and

484
00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 5: criticism is where Neil Gorsuch sits today as he legislates

485
00:25:55,940 --> 00:25:58,340
Speaker 5: from the judicial branch. Same with Clarence Thomas. It's like

486
00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 5: this young black... He's not conservative at the beginning of

487
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 5: his career. He's kind of like a slightly, honestly, more

488
00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:08,609
Speaker 5: radical actor in the 70s. But by the time he

489
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:12,050
Speaker 5: gets to Washington in the 80s, Clarence Thomas realizes that

490
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:15,670
Speaker 5: if he... befriends the conservative movement. If he becomes, quote,

491
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:19,109
Speaker 5: their guy, he can rise to great heights of power.

492
00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:19,570
Speaker 6: Yeah.

493
00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:22,830
Speaker 5: And it's a story about how he meets his wife,

494
00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:25,350
Speaker 5: Virginia Lamp. It's a story about how he goes on

495
00:26:25,390 --> 00:26:29,970
Speaker 5: his own conservative rumspringa and self-radicalizes, essentially, in a bid

496
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:33,469
Speaker 5: to become more palatable to the conservative right. And it's

497
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:36,070
Speaker 5: a story about how he intersects with the highest echelons

498
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:39,070
Speaker 5: of the Reagan administration, which handpick him when it's time

499
00:26:39,109 --> 00:26:41,710
Speaker 5: to fill Thurgood Marshall's Supreme Court seat.

500
00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:45,500
Speaker 1: So dark. What a crime. But yes, that's where we're at.

501
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 5: And by the way, can I just say, Molly, bringing

502
00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:50,820
Speaker 5: this up to the current day, I think it's a

503
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,460
Speaker 5: very timely book because we're now, we're awaiting, and maybe

504
00:26:54,570 --> 00:26:56,490
Speaker 5: we will have gotten it, we're awaiting the Supreme Court's

505
00:26:56,530 --> 00:27:01,770
Speaker 5: decision on this mail-in ballot chicanery, the executive order handed

506
00:27:01,810 --> 00:27:06,630
Speaker 5: down unconstitutionally by Donald Trump trying to steal the 2026 election.

507
00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:10,170
Speaker 5: The Supreme Court has So, I mean, Melissa Murray calls

508
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:13,540
Speaker 5: it the goblin court, but like they are such a

509
00:27:13,630 --> 00:27:19,420
Speaker 5: source of American wrongdoing that I think understanding how this

510
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,350
Speaker 5: came to be is essential, but also. Why the fuck

511
00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:25,810
Speaker 5: aren't people madder about Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas staying

512
00:27:25,850 --> 00:27:28,630
Speaker 5: on the bench? If you're in the conservative movement, shouldn't

513
00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 5: you want them to retire ASAP?

514
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're trying not to tell them.

515
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,300
Speaker 5: Well, now I'm worried that they're going to try and

516
00:27:35,340 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 5: retire in a lame duck session. I mean, I just

517
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,179
Speaker 5: think the courts and the injustice of the courts is

518
00:27:40,220 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 5: something very much with us right now and will continue

519
00:27:42,780 --> 00:27:44,990
Speaker 5: to be. And it is another reason why it's essential

520
00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:47,910
Speaker 5: Democrats retire. do the work of reclaiming the Senate for

521
00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:50,409
Speaker 5: more nobler purposes because they will be the one standing

522
00:27:50,430 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 5: in the way of Aileen Cannon being seated on the

523
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:54,340
Speaker 5: highest court of the land.

524
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: Or Don Jr. Right.

525
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,300
Speaker 3: Why not?

526
00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:03,810
Speaker 1: Why not? So I want you to talk one last

527
00:28:03,869 --> 00:28:06,710
Speaker 1: thing I want you to talk about, which is this

528
00:28:07,109 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: court decision. That's because this is going to air today.

529
00:28:10,220 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: So we may get it today. We may get it

530
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: next week. We're probably going to get it soon. You

531
00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:17,010
Speaker 1: should have gotten it.

532
00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 5: Like, first of all, we shouldn't even be in this

533
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:19,700
Speaker 5: waiting game.

534
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,530
Speaker 1: This is part of it. They should have said no.

535
00:28:21,619 --> 00:28:27,409
Speaker 1: But I want to point out that this week, Justice Kegstand,

536
00:28:28,490 --> 00:28:33,889
Speaker 1: he did this thing where he he told Missouri, Missouri,

537
00:28:34,250 --> 00:28:38,370
Speaker 1: that they couldn't redistrict in the middle of the decade

538
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:40,150
Speaker 1: and that they had to use the old maps and

539
00:28:40,190 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: they couldn't. draw out their one African-American congressperson ever. And

540
00:28:48,130 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: I think, right, I mean, that was.

541
00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 5: They had to abide by the ruling of the state

542
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:53,620
Speaker 5: Supreme Court, which said, yeah, you can't use these maps.

543
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,620
Speaker 1: You can't do this. And sometimes the Supreme Court does

544
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,820
Speaker 1: this thing where they are a little bit nice, so

545
00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:02,060
Speaker 1: they can be very naughty.

546
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:02,150
Speaker 6: Yes.

547
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: And does that worry you that that's what they're doing here?

548
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 5: Well, yes, because, you know, and I would I would

549
00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:12,110
Speaker 5: really defer to my colleagues at strict scrutiny who've done

550
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,530
Speaker 5: amazing analysis on this. But to me, I never think

551
00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:18,830
Speaker 5: that any gift goes without. There is a carrot in

552
00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:21,290
Speaker 5: the stick when it comes to this Supreme Court. And

553
00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:24,890
Speaker 5: they did this before they dismantled the Voting Rights Act.

554
00:29:25,150 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 5: They seem to make overtures towards a more. shall we say,

555
00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:34,180
Speaker 5: fairer congressional redistricting down south. And then they basically go

556
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,190
Speaker 5: to the Voting Rights Act. My concern is they are

557
00:29:37,230 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 5: going to say, oh, well, the president issued this executive

558
00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 5: order months ago and any effort to undermine that executive

559
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 5: order and the USPS's subsequent rulemaking on behalf of that

560
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,459
Speaker 5: order would be tampering with an election. When in reality,

561
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:58,180
Speaker 5: the thing that's changing the status quo is the president's

562
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,290
Speaker 5: executive order. But they may use this logic that they

563
00:30:01,330 --> 00:30:03,310
Speaker 5: have set forth in Missouri. I don't know if they've

564
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:06,070
Speaker 5: actually set forth, but that is undergirding their Missouri ruling,

565
00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:07,490
Speaker 5: which is, you know, you don't.

566
00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:08,530
Speaker 3: Fuck with elections.

567
00:30:08,990 --> 00:30:13,630
Speaker 5: Too close to the actual voting day to justify somehow

568
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:17,490
Speaker 5: a totally unconstitutional order. But can I say, even if

569
00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:20,410
Speaker 5: they come down against Trump, that should not be seen

570
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 5: as a reasonable decision on the part of this court.

571
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,660
Speaker 5: The fact that they even took this up, and they

572
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,900
Speaker 5: took this up in a moment where now states... And

573
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 5: election administrators are like, do we have to print new ballots?

574
00:30:35,140 --> 00:30:36,219
Speaker 1: Like, what are we doing here?

575
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,850
Speaker 5: We're voters who traditionally many a third of our country

576
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,030
Speaker 5: votes mail in or a third of voters vote mail in.

577
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:44,810
Speaker 5: People are confused and worried and anxious about whether their

578
00:30:44,850 --> 00:30:47,830
Speaker 5: votes are going to count. Like the work of undermining

579
00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:50,790
Speaker 5: confidence in the election, which is Trump's end goal here,

580
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:54,010
Speaker 5: that has been completed. And that is courtesy of John Roberts.

581
00:30:54,130 --> 00:30:56,130
Speaker 5: And so, like, there are no excuses for this court,

582
00:30:56,170 --> 00:30:57,030
Speaker 5: no matter how they rule.

583
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:57,850
Speaker 4: Yeah.

584
00:30:58,190 --> 00:31:02,540
Speaker 1: And we shall see. American Democracy, tune in next week.

585
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,820
Speaker 1: What'll happen? What'll happen? You're so great. Thank you.

586
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly.

587
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,990
Speaker 1: Thanks for doing both. It's really fun to have you.

588
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:15,870
Speaker 1: Salman Rushdie is the author of many books, including The

589
00:31:15,890 --> 00:31:20,260
Speaker 1: Satanic Verses and the subject of the new documentary, Knife,

590
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:24,730
Speaker 1: The Attempted Murder of Salman Rushdie. Welcome, welcome, Salman.

591
00:31:24,750 --> 00:31:25,710
Speaker 4: Thank you.

592
00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: So how did you decide to do this documentary? Tell

593
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,260
Speaker 1: me everything.

594
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,170
Speaker 6: Well, it's kind of a crazy idea. I mean, I

595
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:39,890
Speaker 6: was in the trauma ward in Erie, Pennsylvania. three days

596
00:31:40,030 --> 00:31:43,550
Speaker 6: after the attack, at a point when it was pretty

597
00:31:43,630 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 6: probable that I was going to survive. And Eliza was

598
00:31:46,540 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 6: with me and said, look, you know, we should just

599
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:51,700
Speaker 6: make a record of this. And I meant something quite

600
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,860
Speaker 6: modest by that. I'm thinking that that she would take

601
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 6: a picture on her iPhone every few days, just for

602
00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 6: our own purposes. So we knew we could remember, because

603
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,450
Speaker 6: these were very intense and happening with a great deal

604
00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:09,970
Speaker 6: of intensity at that moment. And I'm worried that sometimes

605
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:12,810
Speaker 6: you don't remember that the detail, and I thought we

606
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:15,110
Speaker 6: should try and remember the detail. And so I thought

607
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:17,070
Speaker 6: it was just for us, but then she had a

608
00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:20,870
Speaker 6: better idea. Because, you know, she's, as well as being

609
00:32:20,910 --> 00:32:23,110
Speaker 6: a poet and novelist and memoirist, she's also.

610
00:32:22,890 --> 00:32:25,730
Speaker 4: A very good visual artist. She's a photographer and videographer.

611
00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:29,700
Speaker 6: So she sent for her professional camera, which arrived a

612
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,540
Speaker 6: couple of days later. And I think by day five,

613
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 6: we started making a kind of video diary.

614
00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:38,350
Speaker 1: So I'm going to I just want to give everyone

615
00:32:38,370 --> 00:32:41,090
Speaker 1: who's not told, you know, I live and die, Salman Rushdie.

616
00:32:41,150 --> 00:32:44,790
Speaker 1: I've known you basically my whole life. So but I'm

617
00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:47,570
Speaker 1: just going to I want to give sort of listeners

618
00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:50,850
Speaker 1: who don't totally know the story here. I assume there

619
00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: are a few. You are one of the great literary figures.

620
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: You wrote this book, Salman, this book, The Satanic Verses.

621
00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: It put a fatwa on your head. How many years ago?

622
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 6: That was, I mean, well, that was, you know, it's

623
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,900
Speaker 6: so long ago, because that was my fifth published book,

624
00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:15,330
Speaker 6: and I'm now working on my 24th. So most of

625
00:33:15,390 --> 00:33:19,390
Speaker 6: my life as a writer has taken place since that episode. Basically,

626
00:33:19,410 --> 00:33:22,050
Speaker 6: the book came out in 1988, the fall of 88.

627
00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 6: In England, in America, it came out at the beginning

628
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 6: of 89. And it attracted the hostility of radical Muslim

629
00:33:30,940 --> 00:33:33,650
Speaker 6: figures most importantly.

630
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: The ruler of Iran, the then ruler of Iran, Khomeini.

631
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,620
Speaker 6: And he issued a death threat and said that not

632
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,220
Speaker 6: only I, but publishers, anybody involved in the publication of

633
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 6: the book should be killed. It created a long period

634
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,660
Speaker 6: of the risk of international terrorism. And actually there was,

635
00:33:51,790 --> 00:33:54,550
Speaker 6: because it wasn't only me that was in danger, you know.

636
00:33:55,230 --> 00:33:57,950
Speaker 6: Two of the book's translators were attacked. One of them

637
00:33:58,010 --> 00:34:03,070
Speaker 6: was murdered, you know. And the book's Norwegian publisher was

638
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:06,630
Speaker 6: shot in the back three times and miraculously survived. So

639
00:34:07,030 --> 00:34:10,930
Speaker 6: there were bookstores that were firebombed and things like that.

640
00:34:10,989 --> 00:34:13,489
Speaker 6: So the attack was quite broad, and I was only

641
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:15,129
Speaker 6: the sharp end of it, if you like.

642
00:34:15,390 --> 00:34:17,509
Speaker 4: And that went on for almost a decade.

643
00:34:18,570 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 6: And then there was a kind of deal done between

644
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 6: the British government and the Iranian government. Actually, here in

645
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 6: New York, it was done at the General Assembly of

646
00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:29,060
Speaker 6: the United Nations. There was a meeting between the two

647
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,299
Speaker 6: foreign ministers, and they agreed essentially to call off the

648
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 6: dogs and made a press conference to say that. And

649
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,660
Speaker 6: after that, the threat level dropped considerably. And I moved

650
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,850
Speaker 6: to New York and then for the next more than

651
00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:44,270
Speaker 6: 20 years, as you know, I lived here a pretty

652
00:34:44,390 --> 00:34:49,420
Speaker 6: ordinary writer's life, you know, without there being any element

653
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 6: of threat. And then this one crazy kid had a

654
00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:54,460
Speaker 6: bad idea.

655
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:58,210
Speaker 1: So i met you in 1989 when my grandfather and

656
00:34:58,250 --> 00:35:00,989
Speaker 1: my mother were doing a panel on the phil donahue

657
00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: show i think to support the american publication of the

658
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:12,090
Speaker 1: satanic verses um Do you that? It's just an incredible story.

659
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,700
Speaker 1: I remember. So I would love you to talk about

660
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: when it happened after so many years of really cheating

661
00:35:20,140 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: death and then almost really not cheating death. I mean,

662
00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: what was that like?

663
00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:26,870
Speaker 6: Well, it felt like it actually felt like a kind

664
00:35:26,890 --> 00:35:30,029
Speaker 6: of time warp because I felt that the world had

665
00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:33,509
Speaker 6: moved on. And that there were so many other things

666
00:35:33,570 --> 00:35:36,310
Speaker 6: happening in the world that were of much greater importance.

667
00:35:37,110 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 6: And that this was a story that had reached its

668
00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:44,020
Speaker 6: final chapter 25 years earlier. And the idea that it

669
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 6: would come out of the past in this way and

670
00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 6: reinsert itself into the present moment, it really felt like

671
00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:57,390
Speaker 6: something out of science fiction, like a time machine. And

672
00:35:57,650 --> 00:36:00,190
Speaker 6: it was very strange because the more I found out

673
00:36:00,290 --> 00:36:03,009
Speaker 6: about this young man who attacked me, I realized that

674
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:05,290
Speaker 6: he knew nothing about me. He had not taken the

675
00:36:05,350 --> 00:36:08,610
Speaker 6: trouble to inform himself. By his own admission, he had

676
00:36:08,670 --> 00:36:11,150
Speaker 6: read no more than two pages of something I'd written.

677
00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:13,469
Speaker 6: He didn't know who I was, and yet he was

678
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:17,549
Speaker 6: willing to commit murder, having no previous criminal record. You know,

679
00:36:17,570 --> 00:36:19,950
Speaker 6: I think to go from zero to murder is quite

680
00:36:19,989 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 6: a big jump. And I wanted to, I thought there's

681
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 6: a kind of mystery here that I wanted to understand.

682
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 6: And I think part of writing the memoir and making

683
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 6: the film was just a way for me to try

684
00:36:30,380 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 6: and get into his head to say, you know.

685
00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:34,430
Speaker 4: What did you think you were doing? Never mind what

686
00:36:34,469 --> 00:36:35,969
Speaker 4: you did to my life. Look what you've done to

687
00:36:36,010 --> 00:36:36,410
Speaker 4: your life.

688
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:39,210
Speaker 1: What do you think he thought he was doing?

689
00:36:39,469 --> 00:36:41,570
Speaker 6: Well, I think in the end, I learned that there's

690
00:36:41,610 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 6: a kind of person, a kind of character type that

691
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,150
Speaker 6: wants to be led. wants to be pointed in a

692
00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:50,140
Speaker 6: certain direction and told this is the way to go.

693
00:36:50,380 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 6: And I think he, according to his mother, in the

694
00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:56,140
Speaker 6: one interview with his mother that I saw, he grew

695
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 6: up in New Jersey as a kind of regular kid.

696
00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:02,410
Speaker 6: His parents separated. They were both of Lebanese origin. The

697
00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:05,130
Speaker 6: mother stayed in Jersey. The father went back to Lebanon.

698
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:08,450
Speaker 6: And he, like four or five years before he attacked me,

699
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:12,250
Speaker 6: he had made a visit to Lebanon to spend some

700
00:37:12,290 --> 00:37:14,730
Speaker 6: time with his father. And the village where his father lived,

701
00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:18,940
Speaker 6: I am told, was a very heavily Hezbollah village. And

702
00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:22,299
Speaker 6: when he came back, according to his mother, he was transformed.

703
00:37:22,580 --> 00:37:25,339
Speaker 6: He was no longer this kind of regular kid from Jersey.

704
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,210
Speaker 6: He had been Islamicized, radicalized. And he was critical of

705
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:31,390
Speaker 6: her for not having taught him, as he would put

706
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:34,109
Speaker 6: it properly, about religion. And then he sort of more

707
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 6: or less seems to have barricaded himself in the basement

708
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 6: of her house for the next many years, separating himself

709
00:37:40,180 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 6: from his mother and sibling. And I guess listened to

710
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 6: a lot of radical priests on YouTube. And somewhere down

711
00:37:46,140 --> 00:37:49,390
Speaker 6: that road, he identified me as a possible target. And

712
00:37:49,410 --> 00:37:53,630
Speaker 6: that's as much as I know, because neither in the

713
00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:56,569
Speaker 6: state trial nor in the federal trial Did he take

714
00:37:56,630 --> 00:38:00,779
Speaker 6: the stand? So I'd never heard him speak. So he

715
00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:04,860
Speaker 6: has not testified about his own motives. So all I

716
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 6: can do is guess.

717
00:38:06,380 --> 00:38:11,050
Speaker 1: What is the most disturbing part of this story for you?

718
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:14,930
Speaker 6: Well, of course, it's awful to think that something I

719
00:38:14,969 --> 00:38:16,669
Speaker 6: thought was over might not be over.

720
00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:18,090
Speaker 1: Yeah.

721
00:38:18,350 --> 00:38:20,270
Speaker 6: But I think the more I've been, you know, it's

722
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 6: now been four years since it happened. And I've done

723
00:38:23,390 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 6: some digging in those four years. And, you know, I

724
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 6: still have connections with intelligence. Right. And there's no evidence

725
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 6: that there's anything else in the offing. It does seem

726
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,939
Speaker 6: as if this was one lone nut. And I guess

727
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,430
Speaker 6: there's a degree of comfort in that.

728
00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:46,670
Speaker 1: So tell me about the process of making this movie. Because,

729
00:38:47,969 --> 00:38:50,770
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like we have that same thing,

730
00:38:50,830 --> 00:38:55,410
Speaker 1: which is when history happens to us, we want to

731
00:38:55,469 --> 00:38:58,510
Speaker 1: write about it, right? Because that's what we do.

732
00:38:58,910 --> 00:38:59,259
Speaker 4: Yeah.

733
00:38:59,430 --> 00:39:01,300
Speaker 1: So tell me about the process of that.

734
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,540
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the thing is, initially, as I say,

735
00:39:04,580 --> 00:39:06,700
Speaker 6: we were making this video diary and we thought that

736
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 6: was just... private thing. So that's not for anyone else.

737
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 6: But then two things happened. One was that I decided

738
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:17,969
Speaker 6: to write about it. And that again, I thought I wouldn't,

739
00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:20,350
Speaker 6: you know, because writing seemed to be very far away

740
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:22,670
Speaker 6: from me in the aftermath of the attack.

741
00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:26,090
Speaker 4: But my agent, Andrew Wiley, understood something that I didn't understand.

742
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:28,009
Speaker 6: He came to see me in hospital and he said.

743
00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:29,129
Speaker 4: Of course, you'll write about this.

744
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 6: And I said, you know, Andrew, maybe I won't write

745
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 6: about it.

746
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,580
Speaker 4: And he said, no, you'll write about it. And he

747
00:39:36,620 --> 00:39:36,980
Speaker 4: was right.

748
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,740
Speaker 6: And when I began to think as an artist again,

749
00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:44,710
Speaker 6: I began to think as an imaginative person who.

750
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:46,690
Speaker 4: Shapes the world through words, you know.

751
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:49,810
Speaker 6: Then those images that we'd been making, I began to

752
00:39:49,850 --> 00:39:53,610
Speaker 6: think differently about their possibility. Also, when Eliza and I

753
00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:57,009
Speaker 6: sat down, when I went back home feeling much better,

754
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 6: I mean, not fully recovered, but feeling much better, we

755
00:39:59,930 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 6: finally sat down.

756
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 4: She said, do you want to see the stuff? And

757
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,299
Speaker 4: I said, okay. And so she put up a screen.

758
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 6: And a projector, and we sat together and watched all

759
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,100
Speaker 6: the raw footage that she'd made.

760
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,419
Speaker 4: And actually, the thing that impressed me is how good

761
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 4: it was.

762
00:40:12,820 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 5: Right.

763
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:18,299
Speaker 6: Just technically, in terms of its cinematography, how good it was.

764
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,540
Speaker 6: And I thought, well, OK, it doesn't look like a

765
00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 6: home movie. It doesn't look like something that somebody made

766
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 6: on their iPhone. So maybe there's a reason to see

767
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:31,270
Speaker 6: if professional people think it has a wider audience. And

768
00:40:31,290 --> 00:40:35,410
Speaker 6: so we started talking to a few directors. very eminent

769
00:40:35,489 --> 00:40:39,149
Speaker 6: documentary filmmakers. And then finally, we were able to meet

770
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:42,330
Speaker 6: with Alex Gibney. And I mean, I enormously admired his work.

771
00:40:42,590 --> 00:40:47,210
Speaker 6: You know, anyway, I really love his Scientology film, you know,

772
00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 6: Going Clear and his film about his film that won

773
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 6: the Oscar, Taxi to the Dark Side, about this taxi

774
00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 6: driver that the Americans decided was a terrorist and wasn't

775
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,980
Speaker 6: got very badly treated anyway so I admired him as

776
00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:03,500
Speaker 6: a filmmaker but when we met him the first thing

777
00:41:03,540 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 6: he said is why don't you make the film yourselves

778
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 6: two of us and we had thought that and then

779
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:09,859
Speaker 6: we thought you know we shouldn't do that we're too

780
00:41:09,930 --> 00:41:11,850
Speaker 6: close to the story you know when you're when you're

781
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:15,310
Speaker 6: actually characters in the story for him it's very hard

782
00:41:15,450 --> 00:41:18,529
Speaker 6: also to be the filmmaker of the story. And we

783
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:23,700
Speaker 6: thought we need another eye. We need another artist to

784
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 6: come with his vision of what is the story he

785
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,660
Speaker 6: wants to tell, and do we agree with the story

786
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:31,049
Speaker 6: he wants to tell? And if we do agree, then

787
00:41:31,070 --> 00:41:36,569
Speaker 6: maybe we can work together. Alex explained to us the

788
00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:39,509
Speaker 6: vision he had for the film, which was that it

789
00:41:39,550 --> 00:41:42,730
Speaker 6: would not be linear, that it would go back and

790
00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:45,690
Speaker 6: forward in time, that it would include elements of animation,

791
00:41:46,489 --> 00:41:48,350
Speaker 6: that it would tell the story of my life as

792
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:50,330
Speaker 6: a writer, not just the story of the attack.

793
00:41:50,650 --> 00:41:51,850
Speaker 4: He used a comparison with.

794
00:41:56,090 --> 00:42:00,970
Speaker 6: A British TV series called The Singing Detective by Dennis Potter.

795
00:42:01,450 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 4: And it's about a man who's in hospital, very unwell,

796
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 4: his life.

797
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:10,339
Speaker 6: So the series moves between the present moment of his

798
00:42:10,660 --> 00:42:14,009
Speaker 6: injured self and the past moments of his life. So

799
00:42:14,110 --> 00:42:17,830
Speaker 6: it has that non-linearity that he was talking about. And

800
00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:20,850
Speaker 6: And I actually had seen The Singing Detective and I'd

801
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:22,770
Speaker 6: liked it. And so I said, okay, yeah, that sounds

802
00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:26,140
Speaker 6: like the film I'd like to see. And then we

803
00:42:26,180 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 6: really had to surrender agency because Eliza said that it

804
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 6: was a very moving, emotional moment for her when she

805
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 6: sent the footage that she'd shot electronically over to Jigsaw

806
00:42:39,140 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 6: Films so it became Alex's possession.

807
00:42:43,020 --> 00:42:44,700
Speaker 4: And then basically he made the film.

808
00:42:44,780 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 6: I mean, we did have, we had a couple of

809
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,670
Speaker 6: opportunities to see rough cuts and made our comments. And

810
00:42:50,969 --> 00:42:53,190
Speaker 6: of course I was quite involved because he wanted me

811
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:54,270
Speaker 6: to speak the commentary.

812
00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:55,090
Speaker 4: Right.

813
00:42:56,350 --> 00:42:58,210
Speaker 6: And I said, you know, there already is an audiobook.

814
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:59,930
Speaker 6: Why don't you just use the, because it's me on

815
00:42:59,950 --> 00:43:02,830
Speaker 6: the audiobook too. And he said, no, but an audiobook's

816
00:43:02,850 --> 00:43:03,589
Speaker 6: not the same thing.

817
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:05,190
Speaker 1: Not at all. Yeah.

818
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 4: So he wanted me in the studio, as it were,

819
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 4: performing it. Yeah.

820
00:43:09,340 --> 00:43:09,900
Speaker 2: How?

821
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:12,779
Speaker 6: No, so I saw bits of the film quite a

822
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 6: lot because I was in the sound studio recording against

823
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 6: the picture.

824
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: How long were you in the, I mean, I thought

825
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: you weren't going to make it.

826
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,340
Speaker 4: Yeah, people, there was a very strong chance that I

827
00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:24,110
Speaker 4: wasn't going to make it.

828
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:28,590
Speaker 6: I mean, when I arrived, the doctors, you know, when

829
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:31,140
Speaker 6: doctors feel that you're going to be OK, they start

830
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 6: telling you the bad news.

831
00:43:32,420 --> 00:43:32,980
Speaker 1: Right.

832
00:43:33,219 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 6: And the surgeon who ran the team that saved my

833
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,219
Speaker 6: life back up in Erie, Pennsylvania.

834
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,219
Speaker 1: Because you had to be airlifted. You were in a

835
00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:43,620
Speaker 1: very remote place.

836
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,070
Speaker 6: I was in Chautauqua, which is on the shores of

837
00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:50,190
Speaker 6: Lake Erie. But it's a little town in the middle

838
00:43:50,210 --> 00:43:53,630
Speaker 6: of nowhere. So there was a medevac helicopter that had

839
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:56,109
Speaker 6: to fly me to arrive and had to fly me

840
00:43:56,260 --> 00:43:59,779
Speaker 6: to the nearest trauma hospital, which was actually across the

841
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,819
Speaker 6: border in Pennsylvania, across the state line. I mean, I

842
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,460
Speaker 6: was actually very lucky that there was such a hospital,

843
00:44:06,739 --> 00:44:10,029
Speaker 6: a relatively short helicopter ride away, because Erie is quite

844
00:44:10,070 --> 00:44:14,129
Speaker 6: near the state line. and this hospital just across it. Anyway,

845
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 6: it's called Hamot, H-A-M-O-T. That's where I was. And they

846
00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:20,190
Speaker 6: said to me, once they felt that I'd be okay,

847
00:44:20,810 --> 00:44:23,670
Speaker 6: that when I was brought there in the helicopter, there

848
00:44:23,950 --> 00:44:26,529
Speaker 6: had been such an enormous loss of blood that they

849
00:44:26,590 --> 00:44:28,250
Speaker 6: were not confident that they could save me.

850
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:29,290
Speaker 4: But then they did.

851
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:31,739
Speaker 1: Do you remember any of that helicopter ride?

852
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 4: I remember.

853
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,580
Speaker 6: I have some memory up to the point that I

854
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 6: was put into the helicopter. And then I think, you know,

855
00:44:39,739 --> 00:44:43,690
Speaker 6: there was anesthesia. And I don't remember much after that.

856
00:44:43,810 --> 00:44:47,090
Speaker 6: And the whole of that day is gone because the

857
00:44:47,150 --> 00:44:50,990
Speaker 6: attack actually happened in the morning. It was about 10.45 a.m.,

858
00:44:51,010 --> 00:44:53,969
Speaker 6: something like that. And when I woke up, you know,

859
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:57,030
Speaker 6: after many, many hours of surgery, it was dark.

860
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:58,259
Speaker 4: It was evening.

861
00:44:58,550 --> 00:45:01,580
Speaker 6: So I lost the whole day, basically, because I told

862
00:45:01,620 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 6: the surgery took, you know, eight or nine hours.

863
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:06,980
Speaker 1: As it was happening, when it, did you know it

864
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: was happening? Did you have a moment or you?

865
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:10,340
Speaker 4: Of the surgery?

866
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:12,660
Speaker 1: No, the attack.

867
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,070
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I didn't lose consciousness during that time.

868
00:45:16,090 --> 00:45:17,910
Speaker 6: I mean, I was in a lot of pain and

869
00:45:17,969 --> 00:45:20,589
Speaker 6: I could see an enormous quantity of blood. I mean,

870
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:23,410
Speaker 6: I was on the floor and I was basically lying

871
00:45:23,469 --> 00:45:25,969
Speaker 6: in a lake of blood, which was my own blood.

872
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:28,950
Speaker 6: So I saw that, you know, and it was pretty

873
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:32,340
Speaker 6: clear to me that I was going to die. I

874
00:45:32,380 --> 00:45:35,900
Speaker 6: thought that and I thought that quite oddly, quite matter-of-factly.

875
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:36,620
Speaker 1: Yeah.

876
00:45:38,010 --> 00:45:38,830
Speaker 4: And the thing that I.

877
00:45:38,790 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 6: Felt was I'm going to die far away from everybody

878
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:45,110
Speaker 6: I love. And that was what felt bad about it.

879
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: Do you have now that you have not died and

880
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,180
Speaker 1: you have gotten better and sharper and you're at your

881
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: you're at, you know, exactly where you were, if not

882
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: better than before. Do you have does it help? Is

883
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: it hard to process the fact that that didn't happen

884
00:46:04,140 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: and that you're back?

885
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: No, it feels, I mean, that's the good news.

886
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,500
Speaker 6: But what it does, it changes things in a couple

887
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:14,930
Speaker 6: of ways. I mean, first of all, it changes my

888
00:46:14,989 --> 00:46:19,510
Speaker 6: public life. I mean, I think now, whenever I do

889
00:46:19,590 --> 00:46:22,110
Speaker 6: something in public with an audience and so on, it

890
00:46:22,210 --> 00:46:26,910
Speaker 6: requires security precautions, which for the previous 25 years were

891
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:27,550
Speaker 6: not necessary.

892
00:46:28,450 --> 00:46:29,989
Speaker 4: But now nobody wants a repetition.

893
00:46:30,210 --> 00:46:32,330
Speaker 6: And so we have to take some, it's not a

894
00:46:32,350 --> 00:46:34,570
Speaker 6: whole lot of precautions, but we have to be careful.

895
00:46:35,450 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 4: So that's one thing.

896
00:46:36,380 --> 00:46:38,580
Speaker 6: But the other thing, which in a way is a benefit,

897
00:46:38,739 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 6: I think when you come that close, when you actually

898
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,739
Speaker 6: see the end of the line, you know, and then

899
00:46:43,780 --> 00:46:46,020
Speaker 6: you come back from it, I felt that it's like

900
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 6: being given a second chance at life.

901
00:46:48,050 --> 00:46:48,210
Speaker 1: Yeah.

902
00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:51,649
Speaker 6: And what I felt is, don't waste it. If you're

903
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:53,350
Speaker 6: given a second chance, what are you going to do

904
00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:54,910
Speaker 6: with it? How are you going to use your time?

905
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:57,229
Speaker 6: What's the best use you can make of your time?

906
00:46:57,489 --> 00:47:00,420
Speaker 6: And that's the question I ask myself all the time now,

907
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,140
Speaker 6: and which in a way determines how.

908
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:03,339
Speaker 4: I live my life.

909
00:47:04,020 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 6: Focus on the people you love, your friends, your work.

910
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 6: Forget about everything else.

911
00:47:09,540 --> 00:47:13,250
Speaker 1: Salman thank you so much for talking to me this

912
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:17,230
Speaker 1: was I mean just you know you've clearly had a

913
00:47:17,370 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: very you know you've had an experience with what was

914
00:47:21,820 --> 00:47:25,259
Speaker 1: the most important thing you know yeah yeah no.

915
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,690
Speaker 6: I mean I think And, you know, my publisher, my

916
00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:30,790
Speaker 6: editor said to me when he was reading my memoir,

917
00:47:30,989 --> 00:47:33,550
Speaker 6: he said, you know, very few people have the experience

918
00:47:34,070 --> 00:47:36,810
Speaker 6: of getting this close to death and then coming back

919
00:47:36,850 --> 00:47:37,140
Speaker 6: from it.

920
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:39,910
Speaker 4: Yeah. He said, so tell us. Tell us what that's like.

921
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:40,410
Speaker 1: Yeah.

922
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:42,390
Speaker 4: And that's what I've tried to do. Yeah.

923
00:47:42,690 --> 00:47:44,390
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you, Salman.

924
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:45,970
Speaker 4: Thank you. Good to see you.

925
00:47:46,070 --> 00:47:46,610
Speaker 1: Good to see you.

926
00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:51,970
Speaker 3: And now your moment of fuckery.

927
00:47:52,010 --> 00:47:53,230
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon.

928
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:57,589
Speaker 3: Smiley, let me take you back to last year.

929
00:47:57,890 --> 00:48:00,510
Speaker 2: You may remember last year as being a mayoral election

930
00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:01,770
Speaker 2: in our beautiful city of New York.

931
00:48:02,110 --> 00:48:02,830
Speaker 3: And I was.

932
00:48:02,750 --> 00:48:06,230
Speaker 2: Told by a whole lot of lazy people that the

933
00:48:06,290 --> 00:48:10,250
Speaker 2: millionaires would run if Zoran, the TikTok Bolshevik, was elected

934
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:12,350
Speaker 2: because he said he was going to tax them.

935
00:48:12,550 --> 00:48:13,330
Speaker 3: What do you think happened?

936
00:48:13,730 --> 00:48:15,890
Speaker 1: You love this. I don't love this because I always

937
00:48:15,930 --> 00:48:17,009
Speaker 1: think they're lying, but.

938
00:48:17,130 --> 00:48:18,469
Speaker 3: I thought they were lying, too.

939
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:23,489
Speaker 1: The Bill Ackman, the most annoying man on the internet.

940
00:48:23,610 --> 00:48:24,190
Speaker 3: And verbose.

941
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:26,660
Speaker 1: That fucking guy was like, everyone's going to leave New

942
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:28,410
Speaker 1: York if you raise taxes. You know who still lives

943
00:48:28,430 --> 00:48:32,340
Speaker 1: in New York? Bill Ackman. And John Castamatidis. You told

944
00:48:32,460 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: us you guys were going to leave.

945
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:34,810
Speaker 6: Well....

946
00:48:36,310 --> 00:48:39,670
Speaker 3: Here's the fun news. Even more millionaires came here.

947
00:48:39,790 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. The Groundwork Collective said that actually there are more millionaires.

948
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,140
Speaker 1: It is really a problem. I don't know. We got

949
00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:51,299
Speaker 1: to raise taxes more because we got to get them out.

950
00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:52,420
Speaker 3: Don't threat me with a good time.

951
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

952
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:58,100
Speaker 1: The number of millionaires nationwide went down in 2023, but

953
00:48:58,219 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: we still have a lot of them and we should

954
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: tax them. And also the ones who are really loud

955
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: are lying liars who lie. And so that is our

956
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,890
Speaker 1: moment of fuckery. And so we say to you, if

957
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:14,589
Speaker 1: you taxes actually don't make people move. That's it for

958
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:21,379
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday. Wednesday, Thursday,

959
00:49:21,580 --> 00:49:25,469
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds in politics make

960
00:49:25,570 --> 00:49:29,569
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

961
00:49:29,989 --> 00:49:33,430
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

962
00:49:33,830 --> 00:49:34,950
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.