1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Tim Ellis builds rockets for a living. He started 2 00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 1: his career at Blue Origin, the rocket company founded by 3 00:00:26,756 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos, and then in twenty fifteen he left to 4 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:33,836 Speaker 1: start his own rocket company. The company is called Relativity Space, 5 00:00:34,316 --> 00:00:37,556 Speaker 1: and last year they launched their first rocket. The launch 6 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 1: did not go exactly as planned. 7 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:42,196 Speaker 2: Launch day. 8 00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:47,276 Speaker 3: A lot of emotions certainly come up thinking about it. 9 00:00:47,916 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 2: There's really no way to describe it. 10 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 3: It was actually a new emotion I don't think I've 11 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 3: felt in my entire life. 12 00:00:58,196 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The 13 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:02,556 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 14 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: make technological progress. Tim Ellis is really working on a 15 00:01:07,316 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: couple of problems. He's working on a short term problem, 16 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:13,836 Speaker 1: which is how can you use three D printing to 17 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: make rockets more cheaply and quickly? And then he's working 18 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: on a long term problem, which is how can three 19 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:27,476 Speaker 1: D printing help humans colonize Mars? Trying not to start 20 00:01:27,476 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 1: with the email to Mark Cuban, but I can't, so 21 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: tell me about your email to Mark Cuban. 22 00:01:33,396 --> 00:01:36,516 Speaker 3: I really was convinced that three D printing was going 23 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 3: to be a highly disruptive technology and wanted to go 24 00:01:39,476 --> 00:01:41,316 Speaker 3: try to print a whole rocket, but we didn't really 25 00:01:41,356 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 3: have anything At the time I emailed to Mark Cuban, 26 00:01:44,556 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 3: I actually had not even emailed anybody else with a 27 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:53,156 Speaker 3: relativity space email address. That actually was the first email 28 00:01:53,236 --> 00:01:55,916 Speaker 3: I ever since. So I created the relativity Space email 29 00:01:55,916 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 3: address to email Mark Cuban. That the idea really came. 30 00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 3: I mean, I am from Plano, Texas. It's a suburb 31 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:05,876 Speaker 3: more at the Dallas so I certainly grew up hearing 32 00:02:05,916 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 3: a lot about Mark Cuban with Dallas Mavericks. And I 33 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:13,036 Speaker 3: had a friend at USC in Los Angeles, where I 34 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:16,116 Speaker 3: went to college, that was an entrepreneur, and I remember 35 00:02:16,156 --> 00:02:18,436 Speaker 3: he had a blog where I think at one point 36 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:21,676 Speaker 3: he just said, you know, Mark Cuban does actually answer 37 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 3: cold email. So it sort of heard about this, you know, 38 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:28,076 Speaker 3: phenomenon from that. So I thought, well, you know, I 39 00:02:28,076 --> 00:02:30,796 Speaker 3: don't know any investors, actually don't really know anything about 40 00:02:30,836 --> 00:02:33,036 Speaker 3: starting the company, but I know I need to raise money. 41 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:35,316 Speaker 3: I didn't know how to do it, so I just thought, well, 42 00:02:35,316 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 3: I'm going to try emailing Mark Cuban and let's see 43 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:40,676 Speaker 3: if it works. So I didn't have his email address, 44 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:43,716 Speaker 3: So I had to guess twenty different versions of his 45 00:02:43,756 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 3: email address, you know, Mark at Dallasmavericks dot com, Mark 46 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,036 Speaker 3: dot Cuban at Dallas Mavericks dot com, you know mcuban 47 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:55,276 Speaker 3: at Dallas Mavericks. And then I did Gmail. Does anybody 48 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 3: have Hotmail or Yahoo anymore? 49 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 2: I mean, let's be my mom does, but let's be honest. 50 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 1: So it would be amazing if Mark Cuban, Yeah, Mark 51 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 1: Cuban heady. 52 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:03,236 Speaker 2: Yeah. 53 00:03:03,596 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 1: So so you guess all these email addresses. 54 00:03:06,836 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 3: And then you know, from there, I knew he's a 55 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 3: busy guy, so I couldn't write a lot of words, 56 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 3: and so I just explained, you know, I'm from Plano, Texas, 57 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:18,596 Speaker 3: like so I led with that, and then you know, 58 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 3: quickly talked about that I worked with Jeff Bezos personally, 59 00:03:22,436 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 3: which is true for the three D printing projects, so 60 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:28,996 Speaker 3: kind of getting him hooked, making him realize I'm not 61 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 3: so far away from him, and then showing credibility and legitimacy, 62 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 3: especially because I was only twenty five. But he replied 63 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 3: back in five minutes and then said, well, what do 64 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 3: you want from me? And so it quickly got into 65 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 3: the ask and then you know that almost felt like 66 00:03:45,796 --> 00:03:50,756 Speaker 3: being on Shark Tank, I guess virtually. But yeah, you know, 67 00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 3: we said we were raising half a million dollars. Even 68 00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 3: that amount was a little bit pulled out of thin 69 00:03:56,276 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 3: air because again we kind of just started the company 70 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 3: and not even really started yet, like we hadn't even 71 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 3: incorporated yet. 72 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 2: It really was the first team all we sent. 73 00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 3: So yeah, I asked him for one hundred thousand dollars 74 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 3: of a half a million dollar funding rounds, and then 75 00:04:12,196 --> 00:04:16,356 Speaker 3: you know, he replied back almost immediately again asking you know, 76 00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:20,276 Speaker 3: why does melon do this? Had a you know, kind 77 00:04:20,316 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 3: of straightforward answered like he's just focused on other things 78 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 3: and this is complimentary. 79 00:04:26,196 --> 00:04:26,836 Speaker 2: And then he. 80 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 3: Wrote back, We'll just do the full half a million dollars, 81 00:04:30,196 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 3: like he just gave us the whole five hundred k. 82 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 3: We've now done six funding rounds, we've raised one point 83 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:39,276 Speaker 3: three three billion dollars, and he's invested in every single one. 84 00:04:39,316 --> 00:04:42,036 Speaker 1: Were you surprised by his reply when he said he'd 85 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:42,916 Speaker 1: give you five hundred dollars? 86 00:04:42,996 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, hell, yeah, of course, yes absolutely. I Mean I 87 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 3: now know just how hard fundraising is, and it's a 88 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 3: complete an omelet. 89 00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: So at that time, you're starting this company, like, what's 90 00:04:57,876 --> 00:04:58,316 Speaker 1: your dream? 91 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:04,116 Speaker 3: So we wrote on the back of a Starbucks napkin 92 00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 3: all or Starbucks receipts, I guess, really kind of showing 93 00:05:09,556 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 3: the relationship between three D printing a rocket and then 94 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:15,956 Speaker 3: one day, how we see this technology helping build an 95 00:05:15,956 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 3: industrial base on Mars. So I thought, you know, really 96 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 3: a lot of the inspiration behind starting Relativity space came 97 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:28,956 Speaker 3: from this realization that SpaceX had landed rockets and docked 98 00:05:28,996 --> 00:05:31,756 Speaker 3: with the International Space Station. They were a thirteen year 99 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 3: old company. It was super exciting to watch what they 100 00:05:34,836 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 3: had done, even when I was at Blue Origin. But 101 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:41,636 Speaker 3: despite this once in a generation's success, they're still the 102 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 3: only company in the world that wanted to make humanity 103 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:47,396 Speaker 3: multiplanetary and put a million people on Mars. So I 104 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 3: thought it was inevitable there has to be a second. Clearly, 105 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:53,036 Speaker 3: if we're going to put a million people on Mars, 106 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 3: there will be you know, dozens to hundreds. 107 00:05:55,076 --> 00:05:56,516 Speaker 2: Of companies that make this happen. 108 00:05:57,116 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 3: So I thought, heck, we could be the like, we 109 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:02,316 Speaker 3: are going to be the second company to go try 110 00:06:02,316 --> 00:06:05,236 Speaker 3: to put a million people on Mars too, because there's 111 00:06:05,356 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 3: clearly going to have to be a person that builds 112 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 3: the company that builds all the industrial base equipment, you know, 113 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:15,836 Speaker 3: initially maybe spare parts and other things. So yeah, we 114 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 3: could we could be those founders, and that was something 115 00:06:18,396 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 3: that resonated a lot with me, and it's still true today. 116 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 1: So if the dream is to put a million people 117 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: on Mars, when you're starting, what's the what's the how 118 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: you get there? 119 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:28,676 Speaker 2: Point? 120 00:06:28,796 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, what are you actually setting out to do 121 00:06:32,116 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 1: in practical terms to achieve that? 122 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:34,316 Speaker 2: Of course? 123 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 3: So you know, really the first major goal, which has 124 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:41,076 Speaker 3: now become Chapter one of Relativity, which we actually just completed, 125 00:06:41,396 --> 00:06:44,316 Speaker 3: was to three D print an entire rocket, and then 126 00:06:44,356 --> 00:06:47,236 Speaker 3: the second big piece was to develop the world's largest 127 00:06:47,236 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 3: metal three D printer. 128 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 1: So tell me about the sort of three D printing 129 00:06:51,036 --> 00:06:54,596 Speaker 1: dream you know, when you're starting out, what's yeah, why 130 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 1: why is three D printing sort of the core kind 131 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 1: of technical piece or manufacturing piece that you're focused on. 132 00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:05,276 Speaker 3: Early on, Really, what we thought was three D printing 133 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 3: was more of an automation technology, and this was the 134 00:07:08,516 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 3: kind of uns the thing, and I was certainly a 135 00:07:10,636 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 3: user of the technology. By the way, like all of 136 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,156 Speaker 3: the parts and products I designed, a blue egin used 137 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:17,636 Speaker 3: off the shelf metal three D printers. So and that's 138 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 3: why I started the three D printing division there, because 139 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 3: I really, for myself saw firsthand just how great it 140 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:25,876 Speaker 3: was to design products that would normally be twenty different 141 00:07:25,876 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 3: parts and you could print them as one piece and 142 00:07:28,196 --> 00:07:30,076 Speaker 3: so then you only had to print a single piece, 143 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 3: and it was a lot faster and cheaper, and it 144 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,356 Speaker 3: still functioned basically the same, but the key thing is 145 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 3: it looked super different. So in order to combine twenty 146 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:41,756 Speaker 3: parts together and print them, you don't just take an 147 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 3: existing product and press print. It really has to be 148 00:07:45,236 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 3: designed from the very beginning for this technology. And I 149 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 3: think that was the key thing that made me realize 150 00:07:50,996 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 3: we had to start our own company because a printed 151 00:07:54,116 --> 00:07:57,436 Speaker 3: rocket and all the way you test it, qualify it, 152 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:01,116 Speaker 3: make sure it actually works the material science, like so 153 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:05,356 Speaker 3: many pieces needed to be developed from scratch to make 154 00:08:05,396 --> 00:08:06,836 Speaker 3: a whole printed rocket happen. 155 00:08:07,196 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 1: You can't just say, yeah, let's make rocket the way 156 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 1: we're making it, but instead of using machined parts, let's 157 00:08:12,876 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: three D print them. Like that's not the way it works. 158 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: You have to sort of re engineer the rocket from 159 00:08:18,116 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 1: the ground exactly when you're starting the company, what's your 160 00:08:21,356 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: thesis simply for why a three D printed rocket would 161 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 1: be better than a traditionally manufactured rocket. 162 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:32,156 Speaker 3: A three D printed rocket, the thesis really was, we 163 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 3: can reduce the part count by two orders of magnitude, 164 00:08:35,556 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 3: so one hundred times fewer parts. That really comes from 165 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:43,036 Speaker 3: part count consolidation, and you print them together as single pieces. 166 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 2: We believed we could build a rocket very quickly. 167 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,556 Speaker 3: So initially the tagline was building a rocket in sixty 168 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:53,636 Speaker 3: days and this sixty days later we could build another version, 169 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:56,196 Speaker 3: and sixty days after that another version. So this is 170 00:08:56,476 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 3: the north star of where we see the tech getting 171 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:02,916 Speaker 3: to and then the others cost So clearly all of 172 00:09:02,916 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 3: those those two things really help us reduce the cost 173 00:09:07,196 --> 00:09:10,716 Speaker 3: of launch, and that that was really it. I mean, 174 00:09:10,756 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, people that are building 175 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 3: satellites and need rocket launches, which is our primary business model, 176 00:09:17,476 --> 00:09:20,796 Speaker 3: just want something that's reliable, It can actually launch their 177 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 3: payload and has enough payload capacity, it's cheap, and it 178 00:09:25,116 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 3: shows up on time. It's a pretty sure. 179 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:29,716 Speaker 1: They don't care how it's built right, It doesn't matter 180 00:09:29,756 --> 00:09:31,996 Speaker 1: to them. They just wanted to go to space and 181 00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 1: not blow up and. 182 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:34,076 Speaker 2: Be cheap yep. 183 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 1: So it's as you said, going on eight years ago 184 00:09:37,316 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 1: that you started the company. I know you had your 185 00:09:39,236 --> 00:09:43,316 Speaker 1: first launch earlier this year. So just to jump to 186 00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:47,236 Speaker 1: the moment, like just before that launch, tell me about 187 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:50,156 Speaker 1: what you had built. Tell me about the factory and 188 00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:52,516 Speaker 1: about the three D printers. 189 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:56,036 Speaker 3: Sure to the metal printer's relativity is built. Are the 190 00:09:56,116 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 3: largest in the world. We had several generations in our factory. 191 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 3: When you walk into them, it looks like Westworld a bit. 192 00:10:04,636 --> 00:10:09,036 Speaker 3: So there's a big robotic arm, six axis industrial robotic arm. 193 00:10:09,396 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 3: There's a print head at the end of it. That 194 00:10:11,916 --> 00:10:17,196 Speaker 3: print head deposits metal and uses it was lasers at 195 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 3: the time, but it's also plasma arc energy. So you basically, 196 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 3: you know, using electricity, melt the wire and wherever the 197 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 3: robot our moves, you just deposit molten metal and it solidifies. 198 00:10:29,316 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 3: There's a whole of course control system. There's a bunch 199 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:33,716 Speaker 3: of sensors that are constantly monitoring this. 200 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:35,476 Speaker 2: How big is it. 201 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:41,956 Speaker 3: It's about thirty five feet tall. For the latest versions 202 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 3: can print up to eighteen feet diameter. 203 00:10:47,156 --> 00:10:47,716 Speaker 2: It's huge. 204 00:10:47,796 --> 00:10:50,916 Speaker 1: Can print a rocket basically, I mean eighteen feet diameters 205 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: like the tube of the rocket. 206 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean eighteen feet is the diameter of our 207 00:10:56,396 --> 00:10:59,236 Speaker 3: next reusable vehicle, which is three point thirty million pounds 208 00:10:59,276 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 3: of thrust. 209 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 1: So one big yeah diameter, the big one. 210 00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:04,076 Speaker 3: But they also built the ones that we launched, which 211 00:11:04,116 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 3: is seven and a half feet wide. We had quite 212 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 3: a few of these printers, so it really just looked 213 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 3: like a field of robot arms, you know, melting metal 214 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 3: and in a very precise way, very controlled, very high quality. 215 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,516 Speaker 3: It was actually quite a quiet factory because of this. 216 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:25,476 Speaker 3: You know, there really was not a lot of uh sound, 217 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:28,516 Speaker 3: the hustle and bustle. Certainly, that's very high energy. When 218 00:11:28,556 --> 00:11:31,316 Speaker 3: you walk in a rocket factory that's actively building a rocket. 219 00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 2: You know, there's there's. 220 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:35,356 Speaker 3: A lot of people around, but overall less than you 221 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 3: would normally have. And uh, you know, certainly something that 222 00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:43,356 Speaker 3: looks like the future. There's no question about that. This 223 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 3: looks like the future. 224 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:47,116 Speaker 1: So is there an example of a thing that initially 225 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:48,916 Speaker 1: didn't work, didn't work the way you thought it was 226 00:11:48,956 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 1: going to work, and you had to figure out a 227 00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:52,516 Speaker 1: different way to make it work. 228 00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well one was you know, of course, in rocket 229 00:11:55,436 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 3: engine development, you blow up rocket engines in fact, I 230 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 3: actually encouraged the team to push hard enough to blowing 231 00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 3: up at some point. 232 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 2: You don't like. 233 00:12:05,516 --> 00:12:07,676 Speaker 1: If you're if you're not blowing them up, you're you're 234 00:12:07,676 --> 00:12:10,636 Speaker 1: not really testing them exactly exactly. 235 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 3: Now, you don't want to blow up the test stand 236 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 3: because that tends to tends to be a. 237 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 1: Much right amount of blowing up. 238 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a slower, slower recovery, but blowing up a 239 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 3: rocket engine, now, Yeah, there's different failure modes. Some are 240 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 3: more catastrophic than others. We were actually fairly lucky. We 241 00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 3: didn't have any that were insanely bad. We had one 242 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 3: that was, you know, kind of kind of rough, really 243 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 3: early in the program. I think it was our fourth 244 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 3: ever chamber tests. We were a tiny, tiny company that 245 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 3: particular one. So I remember watching the flame down in 246 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 3: the flame trench slowly creep up, a little drip of 247 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 3: methane that was still still kind of dripping from the 248 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 3: engine at the end of the test, and you. 249 00:12:56,036 --> 00:12:58,596 Speaker 1: Just fuse almost yeah. 250 00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 3: Almost almost, and you just watch this flame, you know, 251 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 3: in the slow mode video, creep up, creep up, and 252 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 3: then right when it goes in the engine chamber, it 253 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 3: was just like a bomb, just went off. Now, of 254 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:10,996 Speaker 3: course nobody was hurt. Everything was safe. We got to 255 00:13:10,996 --> 00:13:15,316 Speaker 3: give those caveats, but it was Yeah, it's pretty crazy video. 256 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:19,276 Speaker 3: But it took a few months to go fix that 257 00:13:19,556 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 3: and to figure it out. So we're lucky at the 258 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 3: time we had three engine tests that had been successful 259 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 3: before that, so we knew it wasn't a fundamental problem. 260 00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 3: It was something we could fix. I think if you 261 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 3: blow up your very first engine, that can be kind 262 00:13:32,916 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 3: of hard because then you don't know exactly does it 263 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 3: fundamentally work or not. 264 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,716 Speaker 1: So tell me about launch day. Right, this was whatever 265 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 1: seven ish years after you launched the company. You're ready 266 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 1: to launch the first rocket. Tell me about that day. 267 00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:49,636 Speaker 2: Launch day. 268 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:54,676 Speaker 3: A lot of emotions certainly come up thinking about it. 269 00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:56,636 Speaker 3: There's really no way to describe it. It was actually 270 00:13:56,676 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 3: a new emotion. I don't think I've felt in my 271 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 3: entire life. It was at night, so we had to 272 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 3: launch at night due to the air traffic kind of coordination. 273 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 3: It was around spring break, so we wanted to be 274 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:12,036 Speaker 3: a good kind of airspace, you know, citizen, so to speak. 275 00:14:12,236 --> 00:14:14,116 Speaker 3: We weren't really sure what it was going to look like. 276 00:14:14,116 --> 00:14:16,236 Speaker 3: By the way, so this is also the first methane 277 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 3: fueled rocket to ever attempt orbit a launch outside of China. 278 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:22,836 Speaker 3: I'm China does not show photos or videos of launches. 279 00:14:23,156 --> 00:14:25,836 Speaker 3: So this literally was the first time the world was 280 00:14:25,916 --> 00:14:28,596 Speaker 3: going to see a methane fueled rocket fly. That was 281 00:14:28,676 --> 00:14:31,516 Speaker 3: the other big thing. So we didn't know what it 282 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 3: was going to look like as it was launching to orbit, 283 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 3: and so when it you know and ended up. Of course, 284 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 3: a lot of the activity at this point we had, 285 00:14:42,436 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 3: you know, about a thousand people at the company, but 286 00:14:45,116 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 3: so the team didn't need me to do anything. Like 287 00:14:48,036 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 3: they're extremely coordinated, trained, they know exactly what they're doing. 288 00:14:53,076 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 2: There's it was at caj. 289 00:14:54,796 --> 00:14:57,636 Speaker 1: Getting in the way at that point, I mean bothering people. 290 00:14:58,476 --> 00:15:00,596 Speaker 3: No, I think I do a good job staying out 291 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 3: of the way. I was just enjoying it. I think 292 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:04,156 Speaker 3: that was the biggest thing. You know, certainly I was 293 00:15:04,196 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 3: on the hook for whatever happened. To be clear, this 294 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 3: is a first launch. No company had ever reached orbit 295 00:15:11,796 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 3: in the world in history on a very first launch, 296 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:18,516 Speaker 3: and the major is intense, like you are getting kind 297 00:15:18,556 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 3: of constant pings over the radio hearing as we're loading propellants. 298 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 3: You know, preparing the rocket for flight. You know, each 299 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:29,876 Speaker 3: step there's different troubleshooting and things that are happening live 300 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 3: because you know, a lot is automated, but it is 301 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:35,076 Speaker 3: all happening for the first time. You have tens of 302 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:38,076 Speaker 3: thousands of sensors and data channels all over the rocket. 303 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 3: It is a very complex coordination. So even though people 304 00:15:42,556 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 3: are well trained, there's on the fly, you know, is 305 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:48,676 Speaker 3: this temperature okay? On the batteries, is you know, it's 306 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:49,356 Speaker 3: out of bounds? 307 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:49,916 Speaker 2: Like is it okay? 308 00:15:49,996 --> 00:15:52,276 Speaker 3: So there's like whole teams of engineers just going and 309 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:55,076 Speaker 3: doing calculations and coming back and saying yes, we're good 310 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 3: to go. You know, the winds are a big issue, 311 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 3: so we're launching weather balloons and tracking wind data to 312 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:03,596 Speaker 3: make sure the winds aren't too strong, not at the 313 00:16:03,596 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 3: ground level but way up in the atmosphere because that's 314 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 3: a huge factor of launch success. There's boats and we 315 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:14,876 Speaker 3: have Coastguard people chasing boats that are in the violation 316 00:16:14,916 --> 00:16:16,836 Speaker 3: of the Keypout zone with like you know, we had 317 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 3: like people with AK forty seven's trying to tell them 318 00:16:19,676 --> 00:16:21,836 Speaker 3: like hey, you're you know, illegally in the zone, Like 319 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:23,836 Speaker 3: you got to get out of there. We had a 320 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 3: Navy plane takeoff from an aircraft carrier in the middle 321 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:30,996 Speaker 3: of you know, almost the launch windows. It's counting down, 322 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:37,356 Speaker 3: so it's kind of controlled, very very controlled, but very 323 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 3: intense because all of these things are popping up, even 324 00:16:40,516 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 3: at the point of you know, getting down. 325 00:16:42,636 --> 00:16:44,996 Speaker 2: To just a few minutes to the to the launch countdown. 326 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:48,076 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, this is purely a test flight, right, 327 00:16:48,116 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: there's no commercial payload on it. There's no people on it. 328 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 1: Basically just launch in the run. 329 00:16:54,236 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, this one. You know, some companies decide to 330 00:16:56,996 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 3: have a payload on the first launch. 331 00:16:58,276 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 2: We decided not to. 332 00:17:00,076 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 3: We ended up flying the first the very first shavings 333 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:07,036 Speaker 3: of a three D printed part that we ever made 334 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 3: seven years ago. The idea behind that was, you know, 335 00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 3: all of the failure we had to overcome to get 336 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 3: to this point, like we're launching that story. I had 337 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:21,476 Speaker 3: my Starbucks receipt, you know, every employee got a photo 338 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. 339 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 1: But yeah, no, Palin, So okay, so it's time, what like, 340 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:29,076 Speaker 1: it's time for the racket to launch. 341 00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 3: So as sixty seconds was counting down, the energy is high. 342 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,996 Speaker 3: Now we had It's very normal for a rocket launch. 343 00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 3: At first, we had two other attempts that happened in daylight. 344 00:17:39,556 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 3: They got very very close to launching. Actually one of 345 00:17:42,156 --> 00:17:45,036 Speaker 3: them even ignited all the nine engines and then aborted. 346 00:17:45,156 --> 00:17:47,956 Speaker 3: So at the time that you're several minutes close to 347 00:17:47,996 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 3: the flight, it's really one hundred percent automated, and then 348 00:17:51,356 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 3: once you're under seventy seconds, it literally is automated, so 349 00:17:55,516 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 3: if anything happens, it just. 350 00:17:56,796 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 2: Aboords and safes itself. It's all software driven. 351 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 3: So we had had a few other launch attempts that 352 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:05,276 Speaker 3: just you know, a sensor was off or some temperatures 353 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:08,316 Speaker 3: slightly drifted because a lot of complex things are happening, 354 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:11,676 Speaker 3: and those final stuff twenty seconds, so that's also actually 355 00:18:11,716 --> 00:18:15,196 Speaker 3: contributing to the anxiety and the you know, adrenaline is 356 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:18,116 Speaker 3: you actually don't yet know is it definitely going off 357 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:20,636 Speaker 3: or definitely not. Of course, it's counting down, so in 358 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:24,236 Speaker 3: the engines light it holds down for several seconds until 359 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:26,716 Speaker 3: they get up to full thrust. There's a bunch of 360 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 3: health checks, you know, which are all automated on the rocket, 361 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 3: and then there's the final command that sends which has release. 362 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:37,276 Speaker 3: So right when what are called the rocket holdbacks or 363 00:18:37,556 --> 00:18:42,276 Speaker 3: hold downs release back. Then the rocket moved up and 364 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 3: I saw ice, you know, start kind of falling off 365 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 3: of it all over the place because it's really cold propellant, 366 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:49,276 Speaker 3: so there's ice all over it. So this ice just 367 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 3: like you know, kind of cheers off of it and 368 00:18:52,676 --> 00:18:56,516 Speaker 3: looks like a star dust or something coming off. So 369 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 3: right when that happened, you know, the engines had already 370 00:18:58,916 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 3: been let. It's like this crazy blue and purple and 371 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:05,316 Speaker 3: orange flame like methane rockets, like really really insane compared 372 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 3: to normal rockets. 373 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 2: I waited for that moment. 374 00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:11,196 Speaker 3: I absolutely had planned I was going to run outside, 375 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 3: so I had the path already set and kind of 376 00:19:14,796 --> 00:19:18,276 Speaker 3: like very very quickly but also careful not to trip 377 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 3: and fall. Went out the door and went around the corner, 378 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,756 Speaker 3: and I just remember the feeling of opening the door, 379 00:19:25,956 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 3: and right when you open it to go outside, it 380 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:30,876 Speaker 3: just nails you in the chest. I mean, rockets, of 381 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 3: course are really intensely powerful. I'd seen engine tests before, 382 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:39,676 Speaker 3: but yeah, you just immediately feel this like fluttering kind 383 00:19:39,716 --> 00:19:42,556 Speaker 3: of almost like somebody's pounding your chest a little bit. 384 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 1: The sound is the sound that ye yeah, yeah, so. 385 00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 3: Loud, super loud, and then I turned around the corner, 386 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:52,236 Speaker 3: so I basically heard it before I saw it. Then 387 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:56,156 Speaker 3: turned around the corner, and then you know, just a 388 00:19:56,356 --> 00:19:59,156 Speaker 3: hundred or so feet in the air, was just this 389 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 3: rocket flying and there's a crazy bright blue flame that 390 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 3: looks like looking at a star, you know, being launched 391 00:20:05,596 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 3: to space. I mean, videos really don't do it just 392 00:20:08,316 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 3: it is. It is so so much brighter and so 393 00:20:10,796 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 3: much cooler looking in person. And then you just feel 394 00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:17,436 Speaker 3: energy in the air, Like the air almost feels dense 395 00:20:17,476 --> 00:20:20,676 Speaker 3: and thick, and it sounds like a whip cracking plus 396 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:24,596 Speaker 3: sub base, you know, just at eleven out of ten intensity, 397 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 3: so it feels alive like that. That's what's so cool. 398 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 3: Microphones and video really just don't capture the feeling of 399 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 3: a live launch because it's like, yeah, just very visceral. 400 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 3: And then of course people around me are like screaming 401 00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 3: and cheering and crying. You know, we like literally crying 402 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 3: like viscerally and say, oh my god, oh my God. 403 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 3: Like it's like a pretty religiously spiritually kind of intense 404 00:20:50,956 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 3: experience just because all the hard work and tears go 405 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 3: into it. It was out of our control at that point. 406 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 3: The rocket flies autonomously, nobody can do anything. But we 407 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:03,996 Speaker 3: needed to get past eighty seconds. So that was the 408 00:21:03,996 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 3: goal of this mission, was to prove the three D 409 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 3: print instructures were actually strong enough to serve vibe and flight. 410 00:21:10,556 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 3: That was the very unique technology. My personal goal was 411 00:21:14,836 --> 00:21:16,996 Speaker 3: to get to space. I think, you know, that was 412 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 3: above the company stated goal, but I did really want 413 00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 3: to get to space on the first flight and have 414 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 3: a full first stage you know, successful launch and stage separation. 415 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 3: That was really what I wanted. And so, you know, 416 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:32,436 Speaker 3: I was watching kind of the live stream. I had 417 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 3: my iPhone next to me, but also just watching live 418 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 3: but at least on the YouTube live stream. They were 419 00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 3: calling out different milestones and I was looking for that 420 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:46,076 Speaker 3: eighty second mark to really make sure, yes, we did it. 421 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:50,356 Speaker 3: So I remember when we passed eighty seconds. You know, 422 00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 3: of course, everybody started screaming and cheering because that was 423 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 3: full mission success by what we were concerned with, and 424 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 3: it was still rumbling, it was still definitely visible. It 425 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 3: was just like a bright blue streak that went across 426 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:05,636 Speaker 3: the sky. But then as we made it to space 427 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 3: and then had stage separation, you know that that was 428 00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 3: for me the moment where I really started celebrating and 429 00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:17,916 Speaker 3: then what happened? Yeah, So then you know, I was 430 00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 3: looking at the live stream, it became clear that the 431 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 3: second stage engine didn't light. It tried to light, so 432 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 3: at first I actually thought it did because there's just 433 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:31,076 Speaker 3: some sputtering of flames, but they went out, so it 434 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 3: was clear that that second stage didn't light. We weren't 435 00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:36,156 Speaker 3: going to make it all the way to orbit. So 436 00:22:36,196 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 3: then I went back inside. You know, of course at 437 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 3: that point, the team's mood is much more serious, like 438 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 3: we're in data collection mode, you know, we're working with 439 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:49,916 Speaker 3: the FAA mode to safe everything. Everything there was good. 440 00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:53,676 Speaker 3: Then I went down into the basement so kind of 441 00:22:53,796 --> 00:22:57,236 Speaker 3: took over where the live stream recording was, and then 442 00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:00,516 Speaker 3: just addressed the overall team. 443 00:22:59,716 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: And what happens to the rocket when the second stage, Like, 444 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 1: does it blow itself up? Does it fall into the sea? 445 00:23:05,236 --> 00:23:05,676 Speaker 1: What happened? 446 00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:10,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, it actually just goes and falls in Atlantic Ocean, 447 00:23:10,276 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 3: So it's way out in the middle of the ocean 448 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:15,676 Speaker 3: at that point, and then we use satellites later to 449 00:23:15,796 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 3: determine that it, you know, did actually sink. You know, 450 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,236 Speaker 3: at that point, it's more than ten thousand feet at 451 00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:24,996 Speaker 3: the bottom of the ocean, so you know, we kind 452 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:27,116 Speaker 3: of do all the proper steps to make sure that 453 00:23:27,196 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 3: things are taken care of from a safety perspective. 454 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:33,076 Speaker 1: And so you were saying you went and talked to 455 00:23:33,116 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 1: the company. 456 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:38,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was ta talk to the company, address everybody, 457 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 3: and then from that moment after, I felt like then 458 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:43,396 Speaker 3: I was kind of off the hook, you know. So 459 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:47,236 Speaker 3: it's definitely very I was very on up until that point, 460 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:50,076 Speaker 3: and then at that point I could stop and then 461 00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 3: just start to let you know what happened sink in. 462 00:23:57,676 --> 00:23:59,676 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute to discuss the rocket 463 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 1: that Tim and his colleagues are working on now. Also Mars. 464 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 1: After that test launch, Tim and his colleagues talk to 465 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:19,596 Speaker 1: their customers and potential customers basically companies that want to 466 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 1: launch satellites, and based on those conversations, they decided to 467 00:24:23,596 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 1: develop a much bigger rocket. The one they're working on 468 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:30,036 Speaker 1: now is two hundred and seventy feet tall, which is 469 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: about as tall as a twenty five story building and 470 00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: more than twice as tall as the rocket they launched 471 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:36,196 Speaker 1: last year. 472 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 3: So what we're doing for the next three years is 473 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 3: building and testing a ton of hardware so we're constantly 474 00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:46,596 Speaker 3: almost every week doing engine testing, collecting data, using that 475 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 3: data to then three D print new versions which slightly 476 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:53,436 Speaker 3: tweak the design. This is really the big competitive advantage 477 00:24:53,436 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 3: of printing, as you're able to iterate the design very quickly. 478 00:24:57,676 --> 00:25:01,756 Speaker 3: So this is really the kind of core principle of 479 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 3: development is doing that first at very small component levels 480 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:08,836 Speaker 3: and then building up more and more into a full 481 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 3: end and then a full rocket stage which would have 482 00:25:13,076 --> 00:25:15,316 Speaker 3: thirteen engines on it. We'll actually touch that on the 483 00:25:15,356 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 3: ground before flying, and then so at the time of flights, 484 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 3: by the time you actually fly the rocket in twenty 485 00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 3: twenty six, almost every component on the rocket has already 486 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:30,276 Speaker 3: gone through several flight like environments for a full duration. 487 00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 1: And yet like if history is a guide, it still 488 00:25:32,996 --> 00:25:35,676 Speaker 1: probably won't work, right, Like that's how hard it is. 489 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, reaching orbit on a very first rocket is difficult. 490 00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:43,436 Speaker 1: Like, it would be very reasonable for you to do 491 00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 1: all this work for three years and for it not 492 00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 1: to work the first time, because that's the way it works. 493 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:51,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, that wouldn't be a total you know, like Company Ender, 494 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,196 Speaker 3: for example, we would plan for that. The chrick is 495 00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:57,276 Speaker 3: how do you make a rocket be successful and not 496 00:25:57,476 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 3: have a government's budget to subsidize it. I mean, so 497 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 3: NASA is successful on first launches all the time. You know, 498 00:26:05,676 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 3: the Europeans are national security launch vehicles. 499 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 1: Because they spend way more than a private company would 500 00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:15,756 Speaker 1: ever spend, correct, because they really don't want it to face. 501 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:16,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 502 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:18,476 Speaker 3: So the trick is how do you get a low 503 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 3: cost rocket which is highly reliable to be successful. 504 00:26:22,716 --> 00:26:26,156 Speaker 1: So it's an interesting like optimization problem at some level 505 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 1: of like basically when do you launch, Like, you don't 506 00:26:30,076 --> 00:26:32,356 Speaker 1: want to launch too late, weirdly, right, you don't want 507 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:35,036 Speaker 1: to be too sure it's work because that's probably too expensive. 508 00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:38,796 Speaker 3: Correct, you have to have a macro view of you know, 509 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 3: the overall company. And ultimately, I think this is a 510 00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 3: pretty interesting lesson learned just in the industry on iteration. 511 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 3: So if you look at you know, SpaceX's reliability record 512 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:53,636 Speaker 3: for example, is extraordinarily good. But how you get there 513 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 3: is a different solution. So traditional aerospace, like you mentioned, 514 00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 3: needs to get it perfect on the first try. 515 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 2: So NASA everybody does. 516 00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:06,036 Speaker 1: And that's sort of for like governmental political reasons, right, 517 00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:08,836 Speaker 1: Like they have a sort of different constituency than a 518 00:27:08,876 --> 00:27:12,436 Speaker 1: private company. They're not optimizing for the kind of exactly well, 519 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: they're not so cost constrained. 520 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:17,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all true, and optics, you're definitely right, they 521 00:27:17,196 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 3: have a different incentive structure. But what's interesting is if 522 00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:23,516 Speaker 3: you take an approach that we're doing and other commercial 523 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 3: companies do, where you build and test a lot of 524 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 3: hardware on the ground before you actually do the flight, 525 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,836 Speaker 3: and then you practice a lot that actually creates a 526 00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 3: very robust product. 527 00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:34,556 Speaker 2: So there is. 528 00:27:34,516 --> 00:27:38,836 Speaker 3: A kind of study that I refer to a lot 529 00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 3: internally where a professor divided an art class into two 530 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,236 Speaker 3: groups that he gave him an hour to make clay pots. 531 00:27:46,676 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 3: One group he said, make as many claypots as he 532 00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 3: possibly can in an hour. The next group he said, 533 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 3: make a perfect clay pot, and so one he said 534 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 3: make as many one was a kind of bid for quality. 535 00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 3: But then at the end of it, what he didn't 536 00:28:00,916 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 3: tell them is he was just going to judge both 537 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,316 Speaker 3: groups based on quality. So what was interesting is the 538 00:28:05,356 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 3: group that made as many as possible, actually, we're almost 539 00:28:08,996 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 3: always considered higher quality, even though he literally didn't tell 540 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 3: them to make something that looked good. 541 00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 1: Reps. Reps are underrated, reps are underrated. Tell me about Mars. 542 00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:25,596 Speaker 1: Started out talking about Mars as like the big dream. 543 00:28:25,996 --> 00:28:30,676 Speaker 1: Tell me more about your dream for Relativity Space and Mars. 544 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:33,916 Speaker 3: Well, I really want Relativity to be the company that 545 00:28:33,956 --> 00:28:36,276 Speaker 3: builds an industrial base on Mars. 546 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:39,556 Speaker 1: Meaning like factories to build stuff on Mars as opposed 547 00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 1: to rockets to go to. 548 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 2: Mars exactation too. 549 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 3: So I thought, well, somebody's got to build the factory. 550 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:48,796 Speaker 3: It has to be small, lightweight, be able to build 551 00:28:48,796 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 3: a wide range of products with very little human labor 552 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 3: because people on Mars won't be quite abundant, and so 553 00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 3: all of those North Star parameters. To find an intelligent 554 00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:01,836 Speaker 3: three D printing system. So that was where I got 555 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 3: to this idea that three D printing has to be 556 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:06,516 Speaker 3: a part of building infrastructure on Mars. If it's going 557 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 3: to be a self sustaining city andation. 558 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:14,276 Speaker 1: What's whatever the first thing a factory like that would make. 559 00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:17,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think it's going to start with things 560 00:29:17,396 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 3: like spare parts and things that potentially break on rockets. 561 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:26,036 Speaker 3: So I imagine most early missions will actually launch some form 562 00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:28,596 Speaker 3: of three D printing system really just as a way 563 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:33,196 Speaker 3: to make the mission more robust in case something went wrong, 564 00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:36,076 Speaker 3: Because when you're that far away, you know, you are 565 00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:40,196 Speaker 3: like nine months away from really getting any extra supplies. 566 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:43,956 Speaker 1: And is the advantage of three D printing there that like, 567 00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:48,396 Speaker 1: ideally you can basically have one three D printer that 568 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 1: can make a very wide range of parts as opposed 569 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,276 Speaker 1: to traditional manufacturing where kind of you need one machine 570 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:57,076 Speaker 1: to make one part and it can't make any other 571 00:29:57,116 --> 00:29:59,196 Speaker 1: part yep, more or less yep exactly. 572 00:29:59,316 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 3: So you can pre you don't need as much pre planning, 573 00:30:02,196 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 3: and there's a lot more flexibility for what you can build. 574 00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 1: So it's a rocket spare parts factory. Yeah, it's basically 575 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:08,556 Speaker 1: the first I. 576 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:11,076 Speaker 3: Think that's the very first thing that's likely. And we 577 00:30:11,116 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 3: actually have a relativity a mission that we have a 578 00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:18,156 Speaker 3: partnership with the co founder and former CTO of SpaceX, 579 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:21,876 Speaker 3: this guy Tom Mueller. He started his own company. We're 580 00:30:21,916 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 3: actually planning to launch payload to Mars with with his companies. 581 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 3: We have multiple launch windows through twenty twenty nine to 582 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:31,396 Speaker 3: be able to do it with them. 583 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: And that wait, just to be clear, you're providing the 584 00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:35,916 Speaker 1: rocket and he's providing the payload. 585 00:30:35,996 --> 00:30:39,756 Speaker 3: Yes, we're providing the rocket, he's providing the Mars transfer vehicle. 586 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:43,196 Speaker 3: The reentry vehicle and the lander. But I do think, 587 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:45,316 Speaker 3: you know, we haven't announced what the payload to will 588 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:48,076 Speaker 3: officially be yet. I personally think it would be very 589 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:50,916 Speaker 3: cool to send some sort of three D printer. 590 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:52,556 Speaker 2: I think that's probably expected. 591 00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:54,916 Speaker 3: But why that's cool is that would actually be the 592 00:30:54,956 --> 00:30:59,156 Speaker 3: first object ever manufactured by a human being off planet. 593 00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:03,476 Speaker 3: And I do think that just starting to show we 594 00:31:03,556 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 3: can build things is a really big part of taking 595 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:12,436 Speaker 3: first step, so to speak, towards one day having a 596 00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:13,676 Speaker 3: robust civilization. 597 00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:29,716 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the Lightning round. Okay, 598 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 1: last thing to do is the Lightning Round, which is 599 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 1: just a bunch of fast questions. So in high school, 600 00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 1: I've heard you say that you wanted to be a 601 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:41,636 Speaker 1: writer and that you actually wrote a couple of novels. 602 00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, what's your favorite novel? 603 00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:47,396 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. The novel that brought me to 604 00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:50,236 Speaker 3: Los Angeles is a book by Brady ston ellis called 605 00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 3: Less than Zero No Relation to My. 606 00:31:52,956 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 1: Amazing that that made you want to go to law sex. 607 00:31:55,276 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 2: I know it is actually amazing. 608 00:31:58,196 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: What's one thing you think everybody should know about how 609 00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:01,996 Speaker 1: rockets work? 610 00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:06,756 Speaker 2: You know? Okay, this is an interesting one. 611 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot of focus on the 612 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:11,996 Speaker 3: rocket in you know, the tube, the structure you can see. 613 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:14,636 Speaker 3: I think what actually makes rockets hard is actually a 614 00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:18,076 Speaker 3: lot of the ancillary systems, so pressure. You know, rockets 615 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:21,236 Speaker 3: need to be pressurized, they need to be filled, drained 616 00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:25,356 Speaker 3: safe successfully. There's different systems you need to start them 617 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:28,916 Speaker 3: up to shut them down. It is the kind of 618 00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 3: details and the non sexy systems that are you know, 619 00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:38,356 Speaker 3: firing fire that actually get a lot of conversation time 620 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 3: internally because that's what can make a good rocket versus 621 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 3: one that doesn't work. 622 00:32:42,916 --> 00:32:45,156 Speaker 1: What's the over under on what year you think you'll 623 00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:45,756 Speaker 1: go to space? 624 00:32:48,116 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 2: What your I go to space? I think I hope. 625 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:55,996 Speaker 3: I hope by twenty thirty. I think that would be 626 00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 3: pretty pretty soon. 627 00:32:57,116 --> 00:32:58,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty soon. 628 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:04,116 Speaker 3: That's going seven years. Yeah, it depends on suborbital versus orbital. Yeah, 629 00:33:04,116 --> 00:33:07,276 Speaker 3: I think in the next seven years going suborbitally would 630 00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 3: be would be possible, definitely. 631 00:33:09,956 --> 00:33:10,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. 632 00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: You think it will get cheaper or you think you'll 633 00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:14,356 Speaker 1: be able to do it because you own a rocket company. 634 00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:17,156 Speaker 2: I think it will get cheaper. 635 00:33:17,196 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 3: I certainly hope it'll get cheaper because I know how 636 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:21,436 Speaker 3: much it is now, and it's a it's not the 637 00:33:21,476 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 3: advertised price. 638 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:23,116 Speaker 2: It's expensive. 639 00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:27,316 Speaker 1: Was it scary to leave Jeff Bezos Rocket Company, to 640 00:33:27,396 --> 00:33:31,316 Speaker 1: leave Blue Origin in order to create a new company 641 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 1: that would then compete against Jeff Bezos Rocket Company? 642 00:33:35,916 --> 00:33:40,596 Speaker 3: Well competing it's Jeff is you know, he's a He's 643 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:44,996 Speaker 3: a capable guy. I think Elon maybe more crazy, more 644 00:33:45,036 --> 00:33:50,276 Speaker 3: irrational from a competitive standpoint, But now I was inspired. 645 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:52,796 Speaker 3: I think at the time I was twenty five, my 646 00:33:52,796 --> 00:33:55,236 Speaker 3: co founder was twenty two. I felt we had very 647 00:33:55,236 --> 00:33:57,956 Speaker 3: little to lose by trying. I think in hindsight, I 648 00:33:57,996 --> 00:34:01,276 Speaker 3: realized just how young, spunky, kind of naive. 649 00:34:01,356 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 2: Maybe we worry about the challenges. 650 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:04,916 Speaker 3: I can definitely tell you it's been way harder than 651 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:06,716 Speaker 3: I ever expected to get to this point. 652 00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:09,996 Speaker 1: Maybe necessarily naive, maybe usefully naive. 653 00:34:10,076 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 3: Oh, definitely an usefully naive. I think that was a 654 00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 3: big benefit. 655 00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 1: What's one thing that would surprise me about Jeff Bezos. 656 00:34:18,316 --> 00:34:20,116 Speaker 2: I think Jeff. 657 00:34:21,276 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 3: Really when Yeah, he is actually really patient. So whether 658 00:34:28,996 --> 00:34:32,916 Speaker 3: it was you know, when his vision of Blue Origin 659 00:34:33,116 --> 00:34:36,876 Speaker 3: with people living and working in space and industrializing kind 660 00:34:36,876 --> 00:34:37,676 Speaker 3: of orbid offer. 661 00:34:37,676 --> 00:34:40,596 Speaker 2: I thought that was the vision, and that. 662 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:42,556 Speaker 3: He was willing to do it in a way where 663 00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:44,996 Speaker 3: even if he doesn't see it in his lifetime, he 664 00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 3: doesn't care. That he doesn't care to a degree that 665 00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 3: just felt very unusual to me. 666 00:34:54,596 --> 00:34:58,396 Speaker 1: Interesting. I mean, you don't think of Jeff Bezos and think, oh, yeah, 667 00:34:58,436 --> 00:34:59,916 Speaker 1: that that guy is super patient. 668 00:35:00,996 --> 00:35:05,836 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, but but no, he really is, Yeah, he 669 00:35:05,916 --> 00:35:06,316 Speaker 3: really is. 670 00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:09,156 Speaker 1: What do you think? What do you think of the 671 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:11,396 Speaker 1: chances you'll go to Mars before you die? 672 00:35:12,156 --> 00:35:18,836 Speaker 3: I have this vision of myself being very old and 673 00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:22,796 Speaker 3: sitting in kind of a beach chair with a beer 674 00:35:23,236 --> 00:35:27,036 Speaker 3: under some sort of biodome on Mars, and that being 675 00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:32,436 Speaker 3: you know where I kick it during the retirement I guess, kind. 676 00:35:32,276 --> 00:35:34,116 Speaker 1: Of like Arizona, but farther. 677 00:35:34,396 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, under a big glass dome exactly 678 00:35:37,156 --> 00:35:40,156 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So, you know, I do have 679 00:35:40,196 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 3: this vision of being there, but I would go towards 680 00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:45,636 Speaker 3: the end of my life. I think it'd be a 681 00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:48,876 Speaker 3: cool I mean, could you imagine a crazier end cap 682 00:35:48,996 --> 00:35:52,676 Speaker 3: to to your whole life by just being on Mars, 683 00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:55,476 Speaker 3: especially since that's something I'm dedicating my life to make 684 00:35:55,556 --> 00:35:58,316 Speaker 3: happen now with relativity, I think that'd be you know, 685 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:05,276 Speaker 3: pretty pretty cool ending. 686 00:36:05,516 --> 00:36:09,316 Speaker 1: Tim Ellis is the co founder and CEO of Relativity Space. 687 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Edith Russlo and Gabriel Hunter Chang. 688 00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:16,836 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lydia Jean Kott and engineered by 689 00:36:16,876 --> 00:36:20,396 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguer. You can email us at problem at pushkin 690 00:36:20,476 --> 00:36:23,036 Speaker 1: dot fm, and please do email us. I try and 691 00:36:23,036 --> 00:36:26,516 Speaker 1: read all the emails. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be 692 00:36:26,596 --> 00:36:35,076 Speaker 1: back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem.